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McAnally's (The Community Pub) => Author Craft => Topic started by: Ramenth on May 13, 2011, 08:03:50 PM
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Hi Author Craft forum,
So, I have a question for you all. I'm just finishing up my life as a student in creative writing at UCSC, which is a very workshop heavy program. As you might expect, large workshops tend to generate a lot of great feedback, but a good portion of it seems like opposite responses. This is especially true if you've taken a work through more than one class.
How do you guys deal with conflicting responses and critiques?
-Ramenth
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It depends on the source.
First thing to do is to identify criticism that is being made because of personal taste. Example: if someone complains about a romance sub-plot because they don't like romance. Also take into account whether or not they "Get" what you are trying to do.
The second thing is to choose which sources you trust most. If your writing prof has published 60 novels or whatever, then chances are that person's crit might be the best.
The only other thing you can do is to just communicate with the people critiquing you and to keep working on it.
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I would not look so much at whether they liked what I wrote as why they liked or disliked what I wrote. Any critique that doesn't give some detailed reasons for the critic's feelings, whether positive or negative, is not worth much. Make sure the responses are factual rather than emotional.
If you have done all that and there are still conflicting critiques I would (as Lanodantheon said) see which of your critics is the most professional. There is also a personal element. Does any of the criticism resonate with you? Is there anyone with whom you could share the conflicting criticisms and get an opinion?
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Also keep in mind that, if large numbers of people don't get what you're trying to put across, or have reason to think it should be done differently, you may have to accept that and do some re-writes. If people don't get your work, they won't buy it.
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Ramenth, even the best of writing programs can be disasters. There I said it.
This is a complicated and powerful question. Well asked. And the answers so far, and there will be many more answers coming that are equally as powerful. Please forgive me for answering in trite quotes from instructors, but they are people you can trust.
- If you get it from one source, ignore it.
- If you get it from four or five sources, fix it.
Then there is the element mentioned above of "who do you trust?" I weigh the crit vs who the crit is.
This doesn't mean your instructor or the best writer in your workshops. This is, or if you are fortunate to have more than one, someone who becomes enmeshed and dedicated to what you want to accomplish. This person isn't going to gush with awe or give you tons of positive feedback; you'll probably initially hate them. This person will be someone who gives you an equal number of negatives, maybe far more negatives than positives, and who pushes you to make it better--and keeps pushing. This person may write romances, or mysteries, or literary work, and may never read your genre. You may never find this person. Oh, I can also guarantee that it will not be a family member... (there are probably exceptions.)
After all that, there is only your author's integrity. Don't ever tread on your own integreity, but don't be an ass about it. Listen, weigh, decide. One author puts her editors remarks into the damn freezer for three days before she opens and reads them.
If you want to be an author, you stick your wrist out to be slashed all the time. You have to have the ego to watch the blood, decide what is important to better your work, and then, guess what? Do it again, and again, and again. In a workshop with Michael A Stackpole, I noticed that the workshop members were overly positive--a deadly mix since I was damn well paying for this. When it was my turn, I sat on the floor beneath them. It took awhile but finally the dam broke and more honest intense feedback came than I ever would have gotten without doing so. I let them be higher, stronger, than me so I could take everything from them I could. I didn't care and I kept quiet. They felt badly later, and never knew that I'd set them up to get honest deep reactions. Sometimes, you have to get sneaky.
You won't improve until you find a critic who is better than you. The sooner you can manage that the better as well. Members in your classes are probably on a par or lower than you. Your teacher, unless published with several titles, may be no better. Be polite, make notes, keep silent, and learn. When you get more than one comment that is similar--then figure out what the problem is. It might have nothing to do with what they say, but they might be pointing out symptoms of a larger underlying problem.
And since you had the sense to ask the question? Then you are well on your way to being a more critical reader, a writer who is learning to reach into that craft tool box. Writing is a journey. What does Jim say? "Life is a journey. Time is a river. The door is a jar."
Push open the first of many, many doors Ramenth. You are on your way already.
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It comes down to the Golden Rule-- The one with the gold makes the rules.
Ultimately that is your reader, the one you have to get to part with their beer money to buy your work. How ever many of the readers have given their trust to publishers and editors, and depend on them to pick the good stuff.
The best advise is to listen to the ones who are going to pay you for your stuff. I often disagree with editors, but an editor is the one who fits my work into a magazine or picks the book for publication so at the end they win. New writers do not get much say, mid list writers a bit more, and lead writers are listened to.
Like a crime story, follow the money. In school, get the grade, then make your mark when you are a NYT Best Seller....
Regards,
Kevin
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This. It's probably the single hardest lesson for a writer to learn, but if your goal is publication and book sales, your focus has to be on what readers will want to read and buy.
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This. It's probably the single hardest lesson for a writer to learn, but if your goal is publication and book sales, your focus has to be on what readers will want to read and buy.
And it's a better bet long-term to get published and become a success by telling the stories you care about as best you can than by churning out derivative invitation of whatever today's flavour of the month is.
When it comes to what readers will want to read and buy, always remember William Goldman's First Rule:
NOBODY
KNOWS
ANYTHING.
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The previous comments all have merit in one way or another.
I think one thing all beginning writers need to learn is to listen to and learn to accept criticism.
Not an easy thing.
Having dealt with a friend who wrote who would begin to sulk the moment you tried to tell him anything.
I also think one of the greatest gifts a beginning writer can have is someone who will tell you "The Truth".
They don't have to be nasty they just have to give it to you unvarnished.
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I never said a writer had to churn out derivative work just to fit current trends. But if everyone's sick of vampires and your book is about a tortured vampire falling in love with a mortal woman, you have to accept that it's going to be a much tougher sell than something fresh and new.
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^^^
Yeah, verily yeah!
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Something not quite touched on so far:
Choose the one that seems most likely to fix your work in the direction you're intending it to go. In other words, the one that, in retrospect, fits what you would have wanted to improve about your work within its desired context.
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Hi Author Craft forum,
So, I have a question for you all. I'm just finishing up my life as a student in creative writing at UCSC, which is a very workshop heavy program. As you might expect, large workshops tend to generate a lot of great feedback, but a good portion of it seems like opposite responses. This is especially true if you've taken a work through more than one class.
How do you guys deal with conflicting responses and critiques?
-Ramenth
Take the edits and suggestions and think about who's giving them. If a student and an established author give you conflicting ideas, you'd be wise to give the author's ideas a little more weight. But in the end, you know the work/characters best. If a note contradicts your over-arching theme or something, it's gotta go, even if Tolkein himself gave it to you. :)
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And it's a better bet long-term to get published and become a success by telling the stories you care about as best you can than by churning out derivative invitation of whatever today's flavour of the month is.
When it comes to what readers will want to read and buy, always remember William Goldman's First Rule:
NOBODY
KNOWS
ANYTHING.
cool. William Goldman, wrote Lion in Winter? Goldman? A favorite of mine.
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cool. William Goldman, wrote Lion in Winter? Goldman? A favorite of mine.
William Goldman who wrote The Princess Bride and Butch Cassidy and the Sundance Kid, though I did not think Lion in Winter was one of his.
I do know one person who after reading and liking Princess Bride went looking for something else by the same author and absently picked up Lord of the Flies. This strikes me as a bad move.
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My bad. It was James Goldman, although I loved both those films by William Goldman. Relatives? One wonders... Yes, IMBd says that William is James Goldman's younger brother.
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I do know one person who after reading and liking Princess Bride went looking for something else by the same author and absently picked up Lord of the Flies. This strikes me as a bad move.
That actually made me laugh out loud.
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Me too!