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The Dresden Files => DF Spoilers => Topic started by: Mira on July 21, 2020, 03:56:06 PM

Title: Why Can't Eb Just Be Honest With Harry?
Post by: Mira on July 21, 2020, 03:56:06 PM


Okay, I will go along with the idea that Eb cannot tell Harry everything about being a star born.  However why can't he level with him over his extreme hate and prejudice towards vampires?  He alluded that they did something truly horrible to him and or his family, but he needs to say just what it was.  As it stands now, they could have murdered his wife, mother, father, and God knows who else, or he is basing it all on seeing them do something nasty in the woodshed.  Point is, if he told Harry what it was, Harry would have a clearer understanding of where Eb is coming from..  It would save a lot of time between the two fencing over it, and create a base for possible reconciliation with the idea that he has a vampire for a grandson.
Title: Re: Why Can't Eb Just Be Honest With Harry?
Post by: Conspiracy Theorist on July 21, 2020, 04:24:20 PM
Because maybe he already has a vampire in the family, Mavra is about the right age to be Ebs mother/grandmother if you take her to be a contemporary of Shakespeare given by her normal dress.

Eb never directly interacted with her when Harry’s hand got flambeed, he was the get away driver, his role to lock down her magic. Mavra is strong enough a magic user to have been a wizard before she was converted by the Black Court.

When Dracula came out it would have been around the time Eb was Captain of Wardens meaning he would have been up to his neck in that little enterprise.
Title: Re: Why Can't Eb Just Be Honest With Harry?
Post by: morriswalters on July 21, 2020, 05:09:13 PM
Did your grandfather share stories about his loves and hates with you? About his mistakes and secret shames? About who he had sex with and where? If he did you have a particularly special grandfather.
Title: Re: Why Can't Eb Just Be Honest With Harry?
Post by: Arjan on July 21, 2020, 05:18:27 PM
It seems that Ebenezer does not trust Harry and wants control over him to educate and shape him into someone more to his liking.

But also:"Come on. I'm a wizard. We have union rules against telling anybody anything,"

Title: Re: Why Can't Eb Just Be Honest With Harry?
Post by: Mr. Death on July 21, 2020, 05:40:43 PM
Are we forgetting that a White Court Vampire seduced and then murdered Ebenezer's daughter?

What makes you think there has to be some other, hidden reason for him to hate vampires besides that?

Does Harry have some other, hidden reason for why he hates ghouls aside from the fact ghouls did horrible things to people Harry cared about?

It's really not that complicated.
Title: Re: Why Can't Eb Just Be Honest With Harry?
Post by: Mira on July 21, 2020, 05:47:43 PM
Did your grandfather share stories about his loves and hates with you? About his mistakes and secret shames? About who he had sex with and where? If he did you have a particularly special grandfather.

 It is a little more serious than that, Eb is entitled to keep his sex life private, but this is a major hate
 and it had created a wall between him and Harry... His hate has blinded him so badly that Eb couldn't conceive of the idea the Raith was living with Margaret?  And he had dinner with them a couple of times a year? Really?
Quote
It seems that Ebenezer does not trust Harry and wants control over him to educate and shape him into someone more to his liking.

I agree he wants to control Harry, but what is odd are the sudden trust issues, those seemed to be
resolved as of Changes or just before, he and Harry shared some pretty serious conspiracy theories that could get both of them in a lot of trouble or dead.. That requires the deepest of trust.

Quote
Are we forgetting that a White Court Vampire seduced and then murdered Ebenezer's daughter?

No, but at the same time from Eb's reaction to the fact that Thomas is his grandson...He was in total denial that Raith was boinking his daughter, something that should have been obvious..
Title: Re: Why Can't Eb Just Be Honest With Harry?
Post by: Arjan on July 21, 2020, 06:02:13 PM
Or he knew but he did not think about offspring. His daughter was under their influence and now he thinks Harry is too. Thomas might be his grandson but he is a monster and Ebenzer expect him to do what monsters do. So his grandson is doing stupid things because of vampire influence that will lead to his dead. He wants to get Harry back whatever it takes.
Title: Re: Why Can't Eb Just Be Honest With Harry?
Post by: Mira on July 21, 2020, 06:59:15 PM
Or he knew but he did not think about offspring. His daughter was under their influence and now he thinks Harry is too. Thomas might be his grandson but he is a monster and Ebenzer expect him to do what monsters do. So his grandson is doing stupid things because of vampire influence that will lead to his dead. He wants to get Harry back whatever it takes.

Yeah, but he is going about it totally the wrong way.. 
Title: Re: Why Can't Eb Just Be Honest With Harry?
Post by: Bad Alias on July 21, 2020, 07:13:09 PM
What makes you think there has to be some other, hidden reason for him to hate vampires besides that?
Didn't Eb say there was someone else?

And he had dinner with them a couple of times a year?
He had a dinner with Maggie, some vampires, and probably some others. We've been through this.
Title: Re: Why Can't Eb Just Be Honest With Harry?
Post by: Arjan on July 21, 2020, 07:27:25 PM
Yeah, but he is going about it totally the wrong way..
The right way would have been to join Harry on the boat and have a chat but Harry had three monsters on board and his free will was compromised by Lara. You can not expect Ebenezer to go on board under these circumstances.

Freydis chose exactly the right illusion to make everything worse.
Title: Re: Why Can't Eb Just Be Honest With Harry?
Post by: Mira on July 21, 2020, 07:59:26 PM
The right way would have been to join Harry on the boat and have a chat but Harry had three monsters on board and his free will was compromised by Lara. You can not expect Ebenezer to go on board under these circumstances.

Freydis chose exactly the right illusion to make everything worse.

Oh no, that conversation needed to happen way before this, and Harry has known all along how
Eb felt.. 
Quote
He had a dinner with Maggie, some vampires, and probably some others. We've been through this.

Which is weird when you think of that, Eb said it was something else besides Raith killing Margaret. Well, if he felt that way, how could he have dinner with them?
Title: Re: Why Can't Eb Just Be Honest With Harry?
Post by: Arjan on July 21, 2020, 08:05:08 PM
Oh no, that conversation needed to happen way before this, and Harry has known all along how
Eb felt.. 
But Eb is difficult to talk with especially if he feels strongly about something. And it was not his secret to reveal, not his alone.
Quote
Which is weird when you think of that, Eb said it was something else besides Raith killing Margaret. Well, if he felt that way, how could he have dinner with them?
Because Raith had not yet killed her?
Title: Re: Why Can't Eb Just Be Honest With Harry?
Post by: Bad Alias on July 21, 2020, 08:18:56 PM
Which is weird when you think of that, Eb said it was something else besides Raith killing Margaret. Well, if he felt that way, how could he have dinner with them?
What Arjan said plus we don't know when or what the something else was. Just to clarify, it was in addition to killing his daughter.
Title: Re: Why Can't Eb Just Be Honest With Harry?
Post by: Bad Alias on July 21, 2020, 08:20:38 PM
After clicking "post," it occurred to me that his explosive behavior at that dinner seems to suggest that Eb was acting in character in this book. I bring it up because a lot of people say he was acting out of character. I didn't really see that, myself.
Title: Re: Why Can't Eb Just Be Honest With Harry?
Post by: Arjan on July 21, 2020, 08:33:41 PM
After clicking "post," it occurred to me that his explosive behavior at that dinner seems to suggest that Eb was acting in character in this book. I bring it up because a lot of people say he was acting out of character. I didn't really see that, myself.
It was in character, he behaves like that in Changes, but more extreme. Already in the sample chapters he shows a lack of control that is greater than it used to be.

What is surprising is not his feelings and opinions about it and not even his reaction but his lack of control while doing so.



Title: Re: Why Can't Eb Just Be Honest With Harry?
Post by: Mira on July 21, 2020, 08:50:20 PM
It was in character, he behaves like that in Changes, but more extreme. Already in the sample chapters he shows a lack of control that is greater than it used to be.

What is surprising is not his feelings and opinions about it and not even his reaction but his lack of control while doing so.

Yes, his bickering with Margaret at the dinner was the tip off that they were related.  However in Changes I wouldn't call the relationship between Harry and Eb all that volatile.  Also Eb escorts Harry back from Edinburgh at the end of Turn Coat, calm, a good relationship.  Eb is clearly hurt when Harry blows him off after he finds out he is the Blackstaff..  But all of that is weird as well because even then Eb never came clean about being Harry's grandfather.   There has been dishonesty from the get go, that never ends well in family relationships. 
Title: Re: Why Can't Eb Just Be Honest With Harry?
Post by: Arjan on July 21, 2020, 08:56:36 PM
Yes, his bickering with Margaret at the dinner was the tip off that they were related.  However in Changes I wouldn't call the relationship between Harry and Eb all that volatile. 
When they are communicating with stones Eb is immediately demanding him to obey and join him. It takes considerable effort to get through to him.

Only then his behaviour changes.
Title: Re: Why Can't Eb Just Be Honest With Harry?
Post by: Mira on July 21, 2020, 09:05:58 PM
When they are communicating with stones Eb is immediately demanding him to obey and join him. It takes considerable effort to get through to him.

Only then his behaviour changes.

There is a line though between anxiety, demanding that Harry obey him with the communicating stones.. And all out red zone loss of control anger, that is what Eb had crossed into on the dock that is what had Harry in tears.. Eb in that condition with the power he wields is an atom bomb with the safety removed and is ticking down.  The holder of the Blackstaff hasn't the luxury of going into the red zone, ever, the Blackstaff is too much power that can be abused.  There is only one outcome for that and Harry knows it, if Eb survives the battle, he has to be put down like a mad dog.
Title: Re: Why Can't Eb Just Be Honest With Harry?
Post by: Vairelome on July 21, 2020, 11:10:41 PM
I'm reminded of Harry's reaction to Eb being the Blackstaff.  For (now, really obvious) reasons, Eb's training of Harry emphasized the intertwined sacredness of human life and the First Law of Magic.  Harry really believed that Eb lived and breathed this ethos, and then he found out that his grandfather had a body count of lots^lots...and had used magic to hit that high score.  Magic, to Harry, as taught by Eb, is the five elements bound by human will.  In order to do magic, you must Believe In and Will your goal, much more than any casual physical action.  ...And Eb had no problem killing mortal minions of the Red Court at Chichen Itza in job lots with a wave of the Blackstaff.  This was pretty emotionally crushing to Harry.

Of course, later, his grandfather murdered Harry in order to reach and murder his other grandson...using magic.
Title: Re: Why Can't Eb Just Be Honest With Harry?
Post by: Bad Alias on July 22, 2020, 04:18:41 AM
When they are communicating with stones Eb is immediately demanding him to obey and join him. It takes considerable effort to get through to him.

Only then his behaviour changes.
Furthermore, he literally muted Harry.
Title: Re: Why Can't Eb Just Be Honest With Harry?
Post by: TrueMonk on July 22, 2020, 05:31:50 AM
On some level though, just saying that he hates the whites like Harry hates ghouls really clearly explains to Harry how he feels about them and makes Harry understand his hate. Maybe that is even better for a fast explanation than telling the details.

I mean, Harry just recently entertained the idea that maybe he could kill the ghouls on the way home from the peace conference.
Title: Re: Why Can't Eb Just Be Honest With Harry?
Post by: TrueMonk on July 24, 2020, 09:20:08 PM
Regarding what they have done to Eb.

At the very least, a white court vampire tricked his daughter into a relationship, then enslaved her and abused (sexually and otherwise I guess) her for years. And then murdered her. Apparently there is something else also that was as bad or worse (my impression).

Yes it would be a logical step to tell Harry about it, but with as much pain as it must be causing him I am not surprised that he has not (yet).

I mean, Harry having two bootcamp kids eaten seems pretty pale in comparison to what the whites mist have done to Be.
Title: Re: Why Can't Eb Just Be Honest With Harry?
Post by: Paviel on July 25, 2020, 01:49:59 AM
Quote
Are we forgetting that a White Court Vampire seduced and then murdered Ebenezer's daughter?

When Harry brought that up in chapter 12, Eb made it clear that that wasn't the only reason why he hated White Court Vampires:

(click to show/hide)
Title: Re: Why Can't Eb Just Be Honest With Harry?
Post by: wildone654 on July 25, 2020, 04:15:18 AM
Because the whole "keep things from Harry" bit is a tool to keep the plot from resolving too quickly. Honestly though, it is getting a bit old and I don't think it was very well done here. In the past the books have poked fun at major tropes and started in the face of classic plot devices and nuances of the genre. Here though it seems the book was really leaning on them out of necessity. Harry didn't look for answers or ask questions in a lot of places in this book that seemed glaring to the point of frustration.


I can't believe I'm going to say this after waiting 6 years, but it almost seems like this book wasn't done. Hopes that BG picks up the spare.
Title: Re: Why Can't Eb Just Be Honest With Harry?
Post by: Mira on July 25, 2020, 03:30:07 PM
Because the whole "keep things from Harry" bit is a tool to keep the plot from resolving too quickly. Honestly though, it is getting a bit old and I don't think it was very well done here. In the past the books have poked fun at major tropes and started in the face of classic plot devices and nuances of the genre. Here though it seems the book was really leaning on them out of necessity. Harry didn't look for answers or ask questions in a lot of places in this book that seemed glaring to the point of frustration.


I can't believe I'm going to say this after waiting 6 years, but it almost seems like this book wasn't done. Hopes that BG picks up the spare.

  Indeed, this is why the books seems rushed and jumps around like a cat on a stove..