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The Dresden Files => DFRPG => Topic started by: finarvyn on June 01, 2006, 10:47:01 PM
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I play RPGs but I'm not familiar with those mentioned. Anybody give me a hint about the game system, basically dice rolls, and what dice are used??
Let me take a shot at this. FATE is a derivative RPG based on another game called FUDGE. Both FUDGE and FATE are designed to simulate a lot of possible situations with a minimum of rules. In other words, while some RPGs crank out sourcebook after sourcebook just full of rules, exceptions, tables and charts, modifiers, etc., these games are designed to be rules-light and more freeform in nature.
In general, the difficulty of an action is compared to the ability of the person attempting that action and some dice are rolled to determine the outcome. Many RPGs are designed on the “roll a dX die and try to roll under Y” sort of system (where various games use different sided dice and complex charts to determine the number needed to succeed), but FATE is more streamlined. Actions and abilities are often defined in terms of verbal descriptors like “superb” or “average” or “cruddy” and the Game Master can determine the number of steps above or below the action is compared to the ability. (For example, an “average” person attempting an “average” difficulty task would be at +0 steps, but a “supurb” person attempting a “cruddy” difficulty task might be at +2.)
FUDGE dice are basic six-sided dice which are numbered -1, -1, 0, 0, +1, +1. They are designed to simply modify the ability up or down when comparing to the difficulty level. The dice probability is a simple bell curve, if anyone is interested.
So… if an “average” person is attempting to perform an “average” difficulty task, that person just needs to roll a zero on the dice rolled (often four dice). One neat aspect of FUDGE dice is that you can ignore all zero rolls and cancel out one +1 and one -1 so that it takes very little brainpower to quickly figure out the number rolled. Again, the point of these games is to make action resolution quick and painless so that the story can flow and the rules consultations are at a minimum.
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I might also add that FATE allows for characters to have super powers, supernatural spellcasting, or any of a number of interesting abilities which are limited only by the Game Master and your imagination. Clearly some talents are appropriate for a given setting while others are not, and one of the tasks of the GM is to pre-determine the boundaries of what characters are allowed to do or not.
This is why some people call FUDGE and FATE “generic” rules sets, because you can construct almost any kind of campaign setting you like with these rules. Some people really like this feature, others dislike it because it seems like too much work.
The Dresden Files RPG will be based upon FATE 2.0, which is a modified form of FATE. The specifics of what will have changed are still a secret, but DFRPG will have a magic system designed to be compatible with Harry’s universe.
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Finarvyn's got the basics right. Thanks again, man.
I will say that there's nothing requiring people to buy "special" Fudge dice. It's pretty easy to just use a standard set of six-sided dice and just read 5 or 6 as "+1" and 1 or 2 as "-1".
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Thanks finarvyn.
That really cleared some stuff up for me. :)
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Thanks Finarvyn, I'm more used to WoD system, but this seems pretty simple ;D
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I will say that there's nothing requiring people to buy "special" Fudge dice. It's pretty easy to just use a standard set of six-sided dice and just read 5 or 6 as "+1" and 1 or 2 as "-1".
No, but the special dice are kind of neat. 8)
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I'm just glad that the game isn't going be d20. While there are some big power differences between Harry, Billy, and Butters I don't think that the class/level system would work well with Harry's world. My game system of choice is GURPS, and I have run a modern GURPS 3rd edition campaign that is very similar to Harrys world. I think the fate based system will work well. I am looking forward to the RPG, both for the game itself and for a background book for the series.
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I'm just glad that the game isn't going be d20. While there are some big power differences between Harry, Billy, and Butters I don't think that the class/level system would work well with Harry's world.
I’m not a big fan of the d20 system, but I am a big fan of the original D&D system and have this sort of discussion with my peers on those boards all the time. I have no idea why so many people are opposed to using a class/level system for modern or futuristic settings, but for some reason they are. All a class/level system really does is create a template or bundle of skills and split characters into stereotyped roles that allow for players to find their place in “the team” that much faster. I have used modified OD&D rules for Star Wars, modern-magic (before I ever heard of Harry Dresden) and other settings. It can be done just fine.
My game system of choice is GURPS, and I have run a modern GURPS 3rd edition campaign that is very similar to Harrys world.
I own a whole shelf of GURPS products. It’s a fine game usable for pretty much every setting imaginable, but I use my GURPS stuff more like sourcebooks than as an actual game. I have found a few too many ways that clever players can “break” GURPS and prefer to avoid that. (Having said that, GURPS has an excellent point system to build characters and I like the fact that each player can develop a character the way he/she wants and they still should end up balanced. I often import this basic point system into my Amber Diceless style campaigns.)
I think the fate based system will work well. I am looking forward to the RPG, both for the game itself and for a background book for the series.
Yes. I think that the magic system for DFRPG should be particularly interesting, and the hope is that the RPG will provide a lot of background material for a campaign.
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Yes. I think that the magic system for DFRPG should be particularly interesting, and the hope is that the RPG will provide a lot of background material for a campaign.
My main hope is that the system models the series well, and that we don't end up with all the main characters being gods compared to any 'chargen' PC. An example of this is the old D6 Star Wars stuff, where all the primary characters needed an insane number of experience to model--even Luke in his 'farmboy' mode. Or Amber, where it basically says no PC will ever compete with the Elders--in spite of the fact that this actually happened in the second series. :)
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My main hope is that the system models the series well, and that we don't end up with all the main characters being gods compared to any 'chargen' PC.
Belmonte, you have mentioned a classic problem in designing any game based upon a book or a movie, and I'm not at all certain that there is an easy answer.
1. If the game is designed such that book NPCs are gods, then there is the implied frustration of never being able to compete with them in anything. Players may not feel like the star of the series because there are always greater characters overshadowing their actions. In essence, you get a RPG where we get to play Dr. Watson as we assist Sherlock Holmes. Such fun.
2. If the game is designed such that book NPCs are not much better than the PCs, we often get the reverse effect. "Hey, we rolled up characters and defeated Sauron. What do you guys wanna do next time?" D&D had this crisis when they put stats (like hit points) in for gods of various mythos, and their only avenue of escape was to invent the avatar. "Well ... you didn't actually kill Zeus, but you killed his avatar."
Either way, some people will be upset by the design choice. I believe that the best action in general is to target the top NPCs at the maximum level that PCs would be expected to reach with the hopes that extended play would eventually allow someone to equal and tie Harry, if not actually beat him.
Or Amber, where it basically says no PC will ever compete with the Elders--in spite of the fact that this actually happened in the second series. :)
I believe you are referring to the "Merlin was a PC" discussion from Shadow Knight? Of course, ADRP is also designed such that each individual GM can determine the attribute scale for the PCs and NPCs in the campaign, so whereas in Zelazny's world (for example) no one could out-Strength Gerard it is certainly possible for a PC to do so in someone's campaign if they so choose.
The wonderful thing about the ADRP character generation system is that all characters of equal point values are theoretically perfectly balanced. If some attribute or power seems to good a deal, it's probably not worth what you think it is...
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Either way, some people will be upset by the design choice. I believe that the best action in general is to target the top NPCs at the maximum level that PCs would be expected to reach with the hopes that extended play would eventually allow someone to equal and tie Harry, if not actually beat him.
See, I wouldn't use Harry--at least as now--as the upper level. He may have physical strength, but he's admitted that Ebenezer, Morgan, and the Merlin are WAY outclassing him. Let alone Mab and Leanansidhe, and I think that sort of thing should be possible as well. :)
I believe you are referring to the "Merlin was a PC" discussion from Shadow Knight? Of course, ADRP is also designed such that each individual GM can determine the attribute scale for the PCs and NPCs in the campaign, so whereas in Zelazny's world (for example) no one could out-Strength Gerard it is certainly possible for a PC to do so in someone's campaign if they so choose.
Nah, actually simply some of the flavor text and RP suggests in the core book. I LOVE the idea of Amber Diceless, but some of it was ... very confrontational in a GM vs PC sense, and very weirdly designed. I'm talking about the comments that 'no PC will ever surprise Benedict, because he's always expecting attack' and 'no PC will ever beat Benedict, it's impossible' and similar statements for other elders, such as Fiona with Psyche. It's, as I understand it, one of the main arguments in Amber Diceless, between various groups--I tend to lean on the 'Hey, Gerard wasn't totally shocked that Corwin's Shadow Guard (Gavelon, Garelon? I suck at names) coldcocked Benedict, and the Hellmaid nearly beat him too and did take his hand! Unbeatable? Huh?'
Then again, I tend to to prefer playing in the -spirit- of games rather than playing games where I'm simply outclassed by setting NPCs. Why I don't play stock Pendragon either. It's pretty much impossible to stat out a PC in that game to match most of Arthur's statted knights. One guy I know computed experience and is a Pendragon guru and said it'd need 50+ years to get to Gawain's level, let alone Lancelot's. :)
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I for one am glad about the choice of the FATE system. I'll admit that I never heard of it before. Sorry guys. But I did download the rules. This looks like a good balanced free form system. When I first read and thought about trying to do Dresden game my first thought was actually Over the Edge from Atlas Games.
So a question to the Evil Hat guru's. How open are character types going to be? You know a wizard, a werewolf and a fairy walk into a McNally's....
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So a question to the Evil Hat guru's. How open are character types going to be? You know a wizard, a werewolf and a fairy walk into a McNally's....
I think that this will be a question to your GM, not a question to the Evil Hat gurus. The FATE game system is set up as a universal mechanic that allows for pretty much any type of character you want to have in the campaign. The DFRPG will be more Dresden-specific, but the core rules it is built from are still somewhat universal.
Since there are wizards and werewolfs and fairies (oh, my!) in Harry's world, there will be some rules in the Dresden Files RPG to handle these sorts of characters (at least as NPCs if not PCs). If we use Jim's books as a guide we would see that we have a wizard for a PC (Harry), a Holy Knight (Michael) and perhaps a vampire (Thomas) and otherwise supernaturals seem to be more along the NPC line. Again, that's for Jim's version of Harry's world.
When your GM constructs a world (it may even by you who is the GM) that world deviates somewhat from Jim's version. It's probably not the same characters, may not be the same city. Certainly not the same situations, or we're doing a "group read" rather than an adventure. At this point the GM will have to decide what goes on in this particular variation of Harry's world and what types of characters will be allowed to particiapte. I would guess that some GMs will allow for many supernaturals, others will allow for only a few. The rules should have elements built into them that will allow for either case.
Does that help?
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If we use Jim's books as a guide we would see that we have a wizard for a PC (Harry), a Holy Knight (Michael) and perhaps a vampire (Thomas) and otherwise supernaturals seem to be more along the NPC line. Again, that's for Jim's version of Harry's world.
I don't know, we had more characters that I think could qualify as PC's. Billy the werewolf, Fix the changeling (not Fix the Knight), and Butters are all PC level characters. They aren't in the same power level as Harry and Micheal, but they do bring other abilites to the table to flesh out a group. After all, what good is playing a bard without a party to buff?
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So a question to the Evil Hat guru's. How open are character types going to be? You know a wizard, a werewolf and a fairy walk into a McNally's....
Our strong guideline here is going to be one of freedom of choice. If something retains the mortal quality of freedom of choice -- wizards, werewolves, *some* kinds of vampires (e.g., Thomas, Susan), and changelings do qualify -- it can probably be a player character.
When the person proceeds to the point where that freedom of choice is lost -- where they become slaves to their nature -- that's the point at which we (the way we're writing the game) believe they stop being viable as player characters. This means that a Black Court vampire as a PC is pretty much a bust -- same for full-on faeries. Just as a few examples.
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If we use Jim's books as a guide we would see that we have a wizard for a PC (Harry), a Holy Knight (Michael) and perhaps a vampire (Thomas) and otherwise supernaturals seem to be more along the NPC line. Again, that's for Jim's version of Harry's world.
I don't know, we had more characters that I think could qualify as PC's. Billy the werewolf, Fix the changeling (not Fix the Knight), and Butters are all PC level characters. They aren't in the same power level as Harry and Micheal, but they do bring other abilites to the table to flesh out a group. After all, what good is playing a bard without a party to buff?
I think it's worth pointing out again that Harry and his peers (Micheal, etc.) aren't all-powerful within their world. They're actually just lucky, dedicated, and they have some decent powers to call their own. Harry was very nearly stomped by almost every enemy he's come across, including the loser dark wizard from book 1. And it's well established that even an average Warden could smush him in a straight up fight. (With people like Luccio and Morgan being able to completely destroy him without much effort) Not to mention the TRULY god-level characters, like Ferrovax or the Merlin.
Even Micheal, with Godly power channeled through the sword, doesn't seem nearly invincible. He's had it taken from him on several occations, and even when he did have it a nasty ghost of an ex-mother was able to fight him to a standstill in the nevernever. That said, I wouldn't want to get in a fencing match with him while standing in the St. Paul's. :P I have a feeling that his divine powers are boosted by places steeped in faith (no evidence to back this up of course) So MAYBE under certain specific conditions you might be able to say he's an unobtainable level of power. Maybe.
I think that it should be reasonable to fight/cast at the level of Micheal and Dresden within the roleplaying game, since they are "hi-PC level". They're a bit above your average mortal, and even your average caster, but they can't stand up to the heavy hitters of the supernatural world without some pretty serious backup, if at all. In my mind, that's exactly where PC's should get to. Eventually.
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I think it's worth pointing out again that Harry and his peers (Michael, etc.) aren't all-powerful within their world.
This is a great observation, and I would think that this will form the foundation for a power level within the campaign. No one wants to be the absolute bottom of the “food chain” and there isn’t as much of interest to do at the top, so some sort of middle-ground is the way to go. Characters will clearly be better than mundanes, but won’t be anywhere in the league of the big boys.
…they can't stand up to the heavy hitters of the supernatural world without some pretty serious backup, if at all. In my mind, that's exactly where PC's should get to. Eventually.
Exactly. We would want our players to have some advancement room, so they have to start off a bit weak but can advance from there. I can see some campaigns where players become heavy hitters and others where the players are more like pawns being controlled by the big boys. Of course, each Game Master will have the power to moderate how slowly or quickly the advancement occurs, as well as the decision as to how high characters will be allowed to evolve.
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It's worth noting that Harry has signifigantly "leveled up" over the course of the books, so power level is a little more of a fuzzy topic than it might be. If we're goign to do things in pure terms, there is a decent argument to be made that Michael is actually more "powerful" than Harry (albeit less flexible) and before you scream, I'm just going to say: killed a _dragon_.
Of course that just further illustrates the fallacy of any purely power based model. Michael, as an example, has no fear of any foe, so long as his cause is just. He was willing to throw down with Mab, on her turf, with her pack of minions on hand. Some of that is "God on my side" confidence, but it's not all bravado.
Harry doesn't have that same raw capability, but for Harry, the cause doesn't need to be just, and the means can be much more roundabout. Even if Michael can win _every good fight_, can you really say, except perhaps on a case-by-case basis, who is more powerful?
-Rob D.
PS - Note, I'm leaving interactions with the Denarians out of the equation for a simple reason - the Knight's relationship with the Denarians is more complicated than it is with a random evil thing, no matter how monstrous.
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No one wants to be the absolute bottom of the “food chain” and there isn’t as much of interest to do at the top, so some sort of middle-ground is the way to go.
Then again, while you're busy getting stronger, so too will many of your peers and betters. A lot of DMs seem to forget about NPC advancement over the course of a game. The players have gone up ten levels, so now they can beat that level 12 necromancer EASY. Unless...oh, snap. He's gone up six himself and is still way above the players. Heh. THIS should be more interesting. Kinda neat how this is built into the FATE system with the usage of the phases. (everytime a phase passes for the players, one should pass for all the major NPCs as long as they're doing something meaningful)
Speaking of which, I'm more psyched about this game than I was before now that I've looked into FATE a bit. I just bought my set of Fudge dice and will be running my first FATE-based game on wednesday. It's set in the Outlaw Star universe. (High-tech meets high-magic. Spaceships and Wizards. Always fun conceptually) But I'm also doing a modification on the magic to create world with ultra-common magic Kinda like how in Alera everyone has magic. Only a whole planet like that, all the critters and plants use magical energy. I'm currently working off a "spacefaring settlers crash-land" backstory. And at any rate FATE has made it very easy to deal with systems-wise. Just allow all magic to default to "poor" like all the other skills, and tada! Everyone can do magic. Should be interesting. ^-^
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I'm likely to pick up the book and use it as source material, the same way I use some GURPs books. (I run primarily in HERO.) I do have a current campaign I could work some of this into, although I don't know whether it will end before the Harry Dresden RPG hits print.