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The Dresden Files => DF Spoilers => Topic started by: Tinfoil hat on September 05, 2022, 11:51:10 AM
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Something that bothers me about maggie lefay. Everyone says they knew her, bad guys, good guys, mab and they all say she was a piece of work
We are told hell was waiting for her only tl be robbed. Wardens wanted to bring her down. But she is somehow on good terms with morgan and luccio. Has meetings with rashid.
And is somehow the council's choose togive birth to and raise a starborn. Thats something which I think requires someone u trust to do.
So my theory is that the SC did trust her. Maybe they told her to get involved with possible enemies of the council to learn their plans. Maggie is told by raith that the vampires are trying to create a starborn. She tells the council they decide to steal the plan for themselves while using raith as a cover. Thomas is the result of an experiment to see if they can engineer a child born at a specific time. When it works. The council hives the go ahead.
Then Mr Sunshine manipulates maggie by introducing her to a random good guy.
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Something that bothers me about maggie lefay. Everyone says they knew her, bad guys, good guys, mab and they all say she was a piece of work
We are told hell was waiting for her only tl be robbed. Wardens wanted to bring her down. But she is somehow on good terms with morgan and luccio. Has meetings with rashid.
And is somehow the council's choose togive birth to and raise a starborn. Thats something which I think requires someone u trust to do.
So my theory is that the SC did trust her. Maybe they told her to get involved with possible enemies of the council to learn their plans. Maggie is told by raith that the vampires are trying to create a starborn. She tells the council they decide to steal the plan for themselves while using raith as a cover. Thomas is the result of an experiment to see if they can engineer a child born at a specific time. When it works. The council hives the go ahead.
Then Mr Sunshine manipulates maggie by introducing her to a random good guy.
Possible, but what gives me pause on that theory is what Chauncy told Harry back in Fool Moon, that she was damned until something changed. That something was Malcolm, now if she was really a spy for the "good" side, I doubt that she'd have been damned. Also when she decided to have a star child with Malcolm she threw a monkey wrench in the plans of both sides.
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Maggie was a spy for the white council not team upstairs. This means she can be damned for here questionable actions. Odin and mab are both on the good side but i doubt they are going to the pearly gates. Grey is on team good guy but mr Sunshine was still gonna nuke him
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Maggie was a spy for the white council not team upstairs. This means she can be damned for here questionable actions. Odin and mab are both on the good side but i doubt they are going to the pearly gates. Grey is on team good guy but mr Sunshine was still gonna nuke him
We are talking motives, it is what you do on earth that determines the afterlife.. Grey isn't totally human, so maybe that means he doesn't get to go to Heaven. I don't think that is fair, if my dogs aren't in Heaven it ain't Heaven.
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Maggie was a spy for the white council not team upstairs ...
Yeah, the White Council is morally-dubious at very best.
They have bought deeply into the trope of "hard men, making hard choices; doing the necessary but ugly." It's a slippery slope, and they don't realize how much they've already slid... they have become blind to other options, and are now doing the ugly even when it's not necessary.
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... Wardens wanted to bring her down ...
IIRC, she was on the Wardens' list of "Watch closely & do not trust" list, but not under any sort of "bring her down" / "kill-on-sight" order. They expected they'd have to take her down, but (I think they) felt she needed a few more lengths of rope to hang herself.
... But she is somehow on good terms with morgan and luccio ...
She was on some terms with Morgan & Luccio. We don't know that those were "good" terms!
These "terms" allowed Morgan to promise he'd look after her child if she couldn't; but that's an easy promise for her to get -- a child is born innocent, and most of the Wardens are absolutely on-board with protecting the innocent, especially children!
... Has meetings with rashid ...
I think Rashid is the least-White-Council wizard on the WC (barring only any "Black Council" or other explicit traitors/infiltrators).
He is the Gatekeeper above all, a close ally of Winter (or whichever other Supernatural power is on "Hold the Gates" duty) & defender of the entire Mortal realm. I am 95% sure that he considers the entirety of the White Council (its laws, its membership, its rules, etc) as an adjunct to his role as Gatekeeper.
As such, he's going to regard Margaret LeFay more or less neutrally, or even slightly-favorably, until/unless she shows him that she's a problem to his primary mission; and, if nothing else, he'll see her as a rare kindred-spirit, a mortal wizard familiar & comfortable with the deep-Nevernever and the Ways.
... And is somehow the council's choose togive birth to and raise a starborn. Thats something which I think requires someone u trust to do. ...
I don't think the WC had that plan; most of them (the WC as a whole, tho with undoubted exceptions) didn't trust her. Official Warden policy put her on their "watchlist" and most of the Wardens distrusted her; consequently, most of the "Law-abiding" members of the White Council took their cues from the Wardens, and also distrusted her.
They seem to have known about such a plan, but I don't think they were part of it, pushing for it to happen, or putting in effort/resources to advance the plan.
I think some individual wizards -- without broader White-Council / Senior-Council knowledge or approval -- may have been involved with Maggie's "Starbabe" plan. Morgan seems to have known, but I don't think he "approved" (or was helping). Since he seems to have been writing for Luccio's eyes in Journal, it looks like she knew, too -- likely from him.
I expect this was the plan Maggie was trying to recruit Ebenezer for, so I presume he (at the least) could infer most of the details.
But it was, likely, a Black Council plan. At that meeting with Eb, there was (that we know of):
- Maggie LeFay, rogue wizard & suspected Lawbreaker, infamous for "skirting the law" and pressing every boundary of it
- Maggie's lord&master, papa Raith (head of the Whamps, who we know used Outsider-magic)
- Ramp duchess Ariana
That's a Black Council operation, right there!
... Then Mr Sunshine manipulates maggie by introducing her to a random good guy.
I'm still unclear over the question: where did Maggie summon the power & the will to defy lord Raith??!?
He was at the very apex of his powers; her Death Curse hadn't yet stripped-away his ability to feed, or to addict mortals. And he had years to work on Maggie, to subvert her will, to guarantee her inability to resist him.
My working theory for this -- and it's only a theory, I don't think we have WoJ or canon answering -- is that Thomas gave her the strength: she loved him, and when she learned that Raith always killed his sons, she
- broke free of Raith's control
- formulated a plan to thwart Raith (with her Death Curse, stripping his ability to Feed)
- ran. like. a. bat. out. of. hell!
I suspect this intel was provided by Mab or Lea (or any of her contacts in Winter; but at the direction of Mab (who also wanted a Starborn wizard!))
Because it was "love" -- genuine & selfless -- it could bypass Whampish controls; but not being amorous/erotic, it didn't trigger the Burn, so Papa Raith wasn't alerted that Maggie genuinely loved someone. It gave her the time she needed to do the needed prep-work for steps 2&3 above.
This was how & when she turned away from her hell-bent path.
Falling for Malcom locked her away from Raith power, and solidified her beyond Hell's reach.
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I mean according to what Lash said in White Night:
I wished I could have raised my eyebrows. Possessed by what?
"An Outsider," Lasciel said. "I have felt such a presence before. This attack is drawn directly from the mind of the Outsider."
Gosh, that was interesting. Not relevant, but interesting.
"It is relevant," Lasciel said, "because of the circumstances of your birth - because of why you were born, Harry. Your mother found the strength to escape Lord Raith for a reason."
So the most obvious guess is that Maggie Sr got out because she realized that she had accidentally joined Cthulu's team and did a 180, deciding to have a Starborn Child because "shit I really fuck up there didn't I?"
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Maggie was a spy for the white council not team upstairs. This means she can be damned for here questionable actions. Odin and mab are both on the good side but i doubt they are going to the pearly gates. Grey is on team good guy but mr Sunshine was still gonna nuke him
Maggie as a spy is an interesting idea. But I'd say Odin may be on the good side, but Mab is on MAB'S side. Grey is on GREY'S side, but he has his own code of honor - if he is bought, he stays bought.
But she is somehow on good terms with morgan and luccio.
They knew her. Morgan also knew Harry. They were not on good terms. They just were on non-shooting terms. might have been the same with Maggie. Keep your friends close and your enemies closer. Word comes out... well, can't ask Eb to do THIS wet work. Morgan would do, most likely. Loyal guard dog, with considerable power.
Has meetings with rashid.
Harry has met with Nicodemus several times. Is Harry team Evil?
I don't think the WC planned the Starborn. They would not have LOST Harry for so many years of they did. Even if Maggie gave them the slip for a time... they would have found him. He'd have grown up, most likely, in Hog Hollow with Grandpa. Maybe even a pseudo Grandma. Where they could keep an eye on his and watch and guard him, while the WC developed their superweapon.
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More likely Margaret was a useful back channel to many persons and groups providing a route for exchange information as being partially trusted by everyone, effectively a free agent courier until Raith snared her and ruined that. Then everyone would have turned against her as knowing too much of their business.
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Margaret was old by the time Thomas was born. Luccio was her contemporary. Nobody sets out to star as the villain in their own story. Whatever she was at the end she had a backstory which got her there. In some senses the story implies that at first she had noble aims. So while she was becoming Margaret La Fay she was a part of wizard society. She was known and ran with her contemporaries.
She broke at least one of the Laws directly, The First Law. To the Council at large she was under a death sentence. She may have time traveled and she lived with Raith and there is no indication that he enthralled her at first. She abandoned her child to a life as a vampire. Since Eb was ignorant of the existence of Thomas we can assume it was because she wanted him ignorant. Since Eb was the wet works guy for the SC it is possible to assume that he went to that meeting at the direction of the SC to hear Maggie's pitch.
There is no indication in the text that Eb saw her after that point, which begs a couple of questions. When did he see Malcolm and when did he become aware of Harry?
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Margaret was old by the time Thomas was born. Luccio was her contemporary. Nobody sets out to star as the villain in their own story. Whatever she was at the end she had a backstory which got her there. In some senses the story implies that at first she had noble aims. So while she was becoming Margaret La Fay she was a part of wizard society. She was known and ran with her contemporaries.
She broke at least one of the Laws directly, The First Law. To the Council at large she was under a death sentence. She may have time traveled and she lived with Raith and there is no indication that he enthralled her at first. She abandoned her child to a life as a vampire. Since Eb was ignorant of the existence of Thomas we can assume it was because she wanted him ignorant. Since Eb was the wet works guy for the SC it is possible to assume that he went to that meeting at the direction of the SC to hear Maggie's pitch.
There is no indication in the text that Eb saw her after that point, which begs a couple of questions. When did he see Malcolm and when did he become aware of Harry?
Part of my theory hangs on drakul's speech in BG. That the bearded men knew and plan his birth.
Eb seems to have come into contact with malcom at some point early on. And was probably under SC observation. Justin was probably in charge of that giving him the means and opportunity to get to harry first
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... Luccio was her contemporary ...
I think Luccio may have been slightly older; exact timing, I think, is speculative. Once they each were over a century old, maybe the differences don't matter so much...
Wyatt Earp was associated with Dodge City from 1875-1879. Luccio was already a relatively-senior Warden in this timeframe (or so I infer, since she was warlock-hunting in Dodge without any backup in A Fistful of Warlocks): Dresden is notable for how much combat & nastiness he has seen for his age (more than "most wizards twice his age," and most of the Wardens are intimidated by his exploits), so we should probably put her in her 40's or 50's (or older) in AFoW, simply because she's not a "loose cannon" / "lone wolf" (compare the way Dresden usually operates with respect to other wizards). 1840 or so is probably the very latest she could have been born, back to 18-ought-something at the earliest.
Margaret was "over 100" at Harry's birth (I suspect Jim rounded her age to the nearest half-century, roughly; so closer to 100+ than "almost 150"). Harry was born mid/early 1970's (likely 72/73/74), so Margaret was born 1840-1870 (roughly - there's a fair bit of inference in that timing)).
So, between those speculations, I conclude that there was anywhere from 0-70 years' age-difference between them.
... Nobody sets out to star as the villain in their own story. Whatever she was at the end she had a backstory which got her there. In some senses the story implies that at first she had noble aims ...
The novels are quite explicit about her "noble aims," it's more than merely "implied." Furthermore, I think she ALWAYS had "noble aims," never really abandoning her ideals. Luccio's description included "brilliant, erratic, passionate, committed, idealistic, talented, charming, insulting, bold, incautious, arrogant" ... but not "murderous" or "twisted" or "cruel" or "uncaring" &c. She may have strayed into "ends justify the means" territory -- strayed far enough that Hell thought they had a lock on her soul! -- but I don't think we have any textual basis to say she had gone entirely over to the "Dark Side." Much like Harry himself, she sometimes found herself treading darker paths out of necessity (and seems to have lost her way at least once).
... She broke at least one of the Laws directly, The First Law. To the Council at large she was under a death sentence ...
Cite, please?
Quoting the Wiki:
... She was considered a threat to the Laws of Magic and the Wardens were ordered to keep an eye on her ... She consistently attempted to prove how limited the Laws of Magic were by skirting them and pointing out the areas of "Grey Magic" as she called them and questioning their legitimacy. The Wardens were tasked with keeping an eye on her.
... There is no indication in the text that Eb saw her after that point, which begs a couple of questions. When did he see Malcolm and when did he become aware of Harry?
I'll just go ahead and assert that Eb having met Malcom -- and learned about Harry -- is in itself "indication in the text" that Eb & Margaret were in (fairly robust) contact after she left Raith Pere.
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I think Luccio may have been slightly older; exact timing, I think, is speculative. Once they each were over a century old, maybe the differences don't matter so much...
Wyatt Earp was associated with Dodge City from 1875-1879. Luccio was already a relatively-senior Warden in this timeframe (or so I infer, since she was warlock-hunting in Dodge without any backup in A Fistful of Warlocks): Dresden is notable for how much combat & nastiness he has seen for his age (more than "most wizards twice his age," and most of the Wardens are intimidated by his exploits), so we should probably put her in her 40's or 50's (or older) in AFoW, simply because she's not a "loose cannon" / "lone wolf" (compare the way Dresden usually operates with respect to other wizards). 1840 or so is probably the very latest she could have been born, back to 18-ought-something at the earliest.
Margaret was "over 100" at Harry's birth (I suspect Jim rounded her age to the nearest half-century, roughly; so closer to 100+ than "almost 150"). Harry was born mid/early 1970's (likely 72/73/74), so Margaret was born 1840-1870 (roughly - there's a fair bit of inference in that timing)).
So, between those speculations, I conclude that there was anywhere from 0-70 years' age-difference between them.
The novels are quite explicit about her "noble aims," it's more than merely "implied." Furthermore, I think she ALWAYS had "noble aims," never really abandoning her ideals. Luccio's description included "brilliant, erratic, passionate, committed, idealistic, talented, charming, insulting, bold, incautious, arrogant" ... but not "murderous" or "twisted" or "cruel" or "uncaring" &c. She may have strayed into "ends justify the means" territory -- strayed far enough that Hell thought they had a lock on her soul! -- but I don't think we have any textual basis to say she had gone entirely over to the "Dark Side." Much like Harry himself, she sometimes found herself treading darker paths out of necessity (and seems to have lost her way at least once).
Cite, please?
Quoting the Wiki:
I'll just go ahead and assert that Eb having met Malcom -- and learned about Harry -- is in itself "indication in the text" that Eb & Margaret were in (fairly robust) contact after she left Raith Pere.
Maggie's mother died in 1810 per the official timeline. Which makes her about 160 when Harry is born.CIRCA 1810: Ebenezar’s wife dies.
Here's your citation about the First Law. This is Eb talking to Harry.She was guilty of violating the First Law, among others,
And the text begs to disagree about being in contact with Eb, again from Blood Rites."She did," Ebenezar confirmed. "I don't know why, but for some reason she turned away from her previous associates—including Justin DuMorne. After that, nowhere was safe for her. She ran from her former allies and from the Wardens for perhaps two years. And she ran from me. I had my orders regarding her as well."
Butcher is heavily retconning events so this is offered without warranty. But that text would suggest that up until the time Harry was born he neither saw Malcolm or Maggie, if then.The overall picture is that Maggie was a piece of work to quote Goodman Grey, and not in a good way.
@Tinfoil hat
You might be right or wrong but other then the short story where he retcons Morgan into a proto Arch Angel there isn't really any thing in the text to lock it down. I no longer have an opinion. I'm simply feeding information into the conversation.
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Maggie's mother died in 1810 per the official timeline. Which makes her about 160 when Harry is born.
Thank you! So that does indeed make Anastasia Luccio and Margaret "LeFay" McCoy very-much contemporaries.
(though the Timeline, it must be noted, is fannish & entirely unofficial)
... Here's your citation about the First Law. This is Eb talking to Harry ...
Thank you! But this is... odd. Eb speaks very specifically (1st Law "among others" (note the plural there) means at least three separate causes for a death-sentence!) ... but I'm pretty sure the Wardens, overall, did not consider her under a death-sentence:
- Luccio (Warden-captain) "should" have said something to Harry, in discussing Margaret LeFay; "broken it to him gently," maybe; but that was the moment.
- Morgan negotiated with LeFay (promised to protect Harry); but we know how Morgan treats Lawbreakers!
I wonder if Eb had private information (unknown to the Wardens/WC generally)? I wonder if Eb had private mis-information?
I wonder if there's a retcon, or a simple discrepancy / continuity error (un-caught by the beta-readers)? Or something else...
... And the text begs to disagree about being in contact with Eb, again from Blood Rites ...
And again, thanks! :)
But we know he somehow knew Malcolm Dresden; knew him well-enough to praise him very-highly indeed (I suspect a Soulgaze). A few notions:
- using "blood of my blood" for tracking (as Harry used from Charity to track Molly), Eb could have tracked/surveilled his daughter, and approached Malcolm when Margaret wasn't with him
- maybe Malcolm was a friend of Eb's from before Margaret took up with Raith; maybe Margaret (running/hiding & in extremis) sought out Malcolm specifically because she knew of Eb's high opinion
- maybe both (1) & (2)
I expect there are other ways to resolve this.
... Butcher is heavily retconning events so this is offered without warranty ...
I think he's actually very-minimally retconning. Instead, I think he has gleefully dropped in elements of foreshadowing, and overt "hints" & "clues" ... but also dropped in explicit "red herrings" to mislead people. In particular, he has said both that Harry is an unreliable narrator, & that many people Harry sees as "bad guys" / "part of the problem" are anything but; and many he sees as "fighting the good fight" / "on the right side" are actually bad-guys in disguise.
Case in point: Mab. When we met her, she was presented as the archetype of "Evil Queen" & "Wicked Faerie" (Harry joked that she gave lessons & certifications, and inspected her protoge's for sufficient-wickedness). But no: as it turns out, her primary function is Protector of Our Reality, the general in charge of the battle at the Outer Gates; Winter is about 90% "Anti-Outsider" & only a tiny portion is being all "Summer's Opposite." She is, arguably, one of the most-extreme Good Guys(or Gals) in the entire Dresden Files. Not exactly a kindly or friendly one; but solidly on the Right Side.
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As I said it's offered without warranty. For all I know Butcher will make her a closet angel. He throws a lot of smoke to confuse the issue. For instance about half the time when he has Bob speak he's treating you like a mushroom by having Bob feeding you manure while keeping you in the dark. In terms of Mab he's all over the map as it suits him. Sometime making her sympathetic and other times making her heartless and cruel. In any case this was an info dump only. I no longer feel that I have any real idea what he's doing past Cold Days.
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Maggie's mother died in 1810 per the official timeline. Which makes her about 160 when Harry is born.
Do we know Maggie's birth in relation to her mother's death? She could have been older.
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The series timeline says,
BTW APPROX 1797 AND 1810: Maggie LeFay is born. (Source)
. You would have to do a very deep dive in the Words Of Jim to get to that number.
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Butcher is heavily retconning events so this is offered without warranty.
I agree. I first became sure that there was significant retconning going on during the exchange between Harry and Stacy back in, IIRC, Small Favor. I consider it fairly sure retconning because of Harry's reaction. Luccio was talking to Harry about his mother, and what she was telling him was totally at variance with what he had heard from Eb, from Thomas, from Nicodemus, from Chaunzoggoroth, etc. It doesn't even match what her own simulacrum said to him in the story where he learns Thomas is his brother.
Now Stacy could have been lying, or trying to spare Harry's feelings if she didn't know what he already knew, but Harry ought to have reacted internally to this strange discrepancy. Instead, he takes it in stride as if it was natural. That tells me that JB was retconning Margaret LeFay's backstory.
Was Margaret playing a double or triple game, for someone? Possibly. It's also possible that she started out with misguided idealism and got in over her head, and became corrupted. That would fit with her 'shadow's comments that "I was so arrogant".
As for contact with Eb...Margaret may well have run from Eb, out of fear or shame or both, but that doesn't mean Eb couldn't have tracked her down. Likewise, he may have 'had his orders' regarding her, but that doesn't mean he obeyed them. It might be that Eb contacted her in spite of her running, or at least monitored her and Malcolm from a distance. We just don't know.
But yeah, the retcon tangles up all the speculations.
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I agree. I first became sure that there was significant retconning going on during the exchange between Harry and Stacy back in, IIRC, Small Favor. I consider it fairly sure retconning because of Harry's reaction. Luccio was talking to Harry about his mother, and what she was telling him was totally at variance with what he had heard from Eb, from Thomas, from Nicodemus, from Chaunzoggoroth, etc. It doesn't even match what her own simulacrum said to him in the story where he learns Thomas is his brother.
Now Stacy could have been lying, or trying to spare Harry's feelings if she didn't know what he already knew, but Harry ought to have reacted internally to this strange discrepancy. Instead, he takes it in stride as if it was natural. That tells me that JB was retconning Margaret LeFay's backstory.
Was Margaret playing a double or triple game, for someone? Possibly. It's also possible that she started out with misguided idealism and got in over her head, and became corrupted. That would fit with her 'shadow's comments that "I was so arrogant".
As for contact with Eb...Margaret may well have run from Eb, out of fear or shame or both, but that doesn't mean Eb couldn't have tracked her down. Likewise, he may have 'had his orders' regarding her, but that doesn't mean he obeyed them. It might be that Eb contacted her in spite of her running, or at least monitored her and Malcolm from a distance. We just don't know.
But yeah, the retcon tangles up all the speculations.
Some of it may come down to the point of view of who is telling Harry the story about his mother..
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Some of it may come down to the point of view of who is telling Harry the story about his mother..
"Some" of it??!?
Most of it, I'd think!
Everyone's an unreliable narrator.
Each character will speak from their own perspective; and often, will say different things (or just "spin" things differently) depending on who they're speaking to.
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"Some" of it??!?
Most of it, I'd think!
Everyone's an unreliable narrator.
Each character will speak from their own perspective; and often, will say different things (or just "spin" things differently) depending on who they're speaking to.
Thank you, that is what I was thinking, but wanted to hear you say it. However I disagree with the unreliable narrator part. Why? Because each one telling Harry what they knew of his mother came from his,her, or it's point of view, or the truth as far as they knew.. Unless of course they had a motive to lie to Harry. What Luccio said about her can be relied on from her and Council's view point, and can be relied on as their opinion..
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... What Luccio said about her can be relied on from her and Council's view point, and can be relied on as their opinion ...
Not necessarily; Peabody was already tweaking Luccio's perspective, and she may have been trying to treat Harry extra-gently.
By proclivity, I think she's very practical and no-nonsense, but as a lover she might have been reluctant to "make him face facts" about just how bad his mother was (from her own POV). I mean, attacking somebody's mother is pretty multiculturally a "now you've gon too far" element (unless your father smelt of elderberries).
It'd be interesting to see another conversation now that she's entirely free-willed, and not trying to kid-glove Harry...
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"Some" of it??!?
Most of it, I'd think!
Everyone's an unreliable narrator.
Each character will speak from their own perspective; and often, will say different things (or just "spin" things differently) depending on who they're speaking to.
The problem with that is that Harry's early knowledge of his mother came from multiple different independent sources: Chaunzoggoroth, Martha Liberty, Ebenezar, Thomas, Nicodemus, her own simulacrum, Lea, etc.
The thing is, their accounts all more or less tallied (with a slight exception in Martha Liberty's case). They all gave Harry a version that more or less lined up. There was a single hint in Martha's reaction that Margaret may not have been all bad to start with, but everything else lined up with the description of Margaret LeFay as a major-league warlock, troublemaker, killer, bad news on a plate.
Then, suddenly, around the time of Small Favor, things changed...and Harry didn't seem to notice. Which suggests to me strongly that JB is retconning.