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The Dresden Files => DF Spoilers => Topic started by: groinkick on August 24, 2021, 04:26:20 AM
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This video is a perfect example of why. I could see how in the Dresdenverse, this type of devotion could be powerful
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ByAXCjqBzLg
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Fair enough although the reactions at any major event are similar - music concerts, boxing matches, UFC, various sporting codes, plenty of mega-churches (of any major religion), motivational speaker seminars (think Tony Robinson), movie premieres etc.
People love celebrities. It's pretty well known.
To be honest...I am expecting to be disappointed by this book. It's a bit too corny for me - which isn't to say I don't enjoy wrestling. But at most I'd expect only a few cameos like Hercules and Thor maybe. I'd hate to see Zeus etc. It would feel a bit cheap. And possibly a bit disrespectful depending on the religion.
The problem is that the gods of pantheons other than Christianity have been worshipped by thousands, perhaps millions before. They've had animals and humans sacrificed to them. Temples and statues built in their name. Sure they've faded into the background now. But why settle for something less?
I can see Aphrodite becoming a model or head of a fashion magazine etc. But why would she settle for wrestling? Why would Thor, would has killed hundreds of monsters? Hercules may have only defeated a score or two of monsters, but they were real challenges.
I kinda feel like Jim came up with this in his younger days and thought it was a good idea then. I'd hoped he would mature a bit and see ways to do that book in more interesting ways but it seems not sadly.
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Fair enough although the reactions at any major event are similar - music concerts, boxing matches, UFC, various sporting codes, plenty of mega-churches (of any major religion), motivational speaker seminars (think Tony Robinson), movie premieres etc.
People love celebrities. It's pretty well known.
My guess is that the nature of the fan is important. If the fan loves you for being in a boy band, the power may be different than fans who see you as a super warrior of some kind. Kind of like with the vampires "you are what you eat".
I'd hate to see Zeus etc. It would feel a bit cheap. And possibly a bit disrespectful depending on the religion.
You mean like Angels, and TWG, and Fallen? As Jim said, it's fiction. Anyways I don't think Zeus will be there. He's above it. I think he's like Hades in the sense that he's much bigger. The wrestlers will probably be lesser gods.
The problem is that the gods of pantheons other than Christianity have been worshipped by thousands, perhaps millions before. They've had animals and humans sacrificed to them. Temples and statues built in their name. Sure they've faded into the background now. But why settle for something less?
Because as power is expended, it needs to be refilled. They must settle for something less because if they try to force people to worship them like before they are liable to get their butts kicked by Mab, or Odin, or others.
Why would Thor, would has killed hundreds of monsters?
I think Thor is actually playing football
I kinda feel like Jim came up with this in his younger days and thought it was a good idea then. I'd hoped he would mature a bit and see ways to do that book in more interesting ways but it seems not sadly.
You have to remember that even in these mythologies (or theologies) that even Zeus was born in this universe. They came into existence from the universe, they were never omnipotent or eternal. Zeus had parents, and his parents had parents.
It makes sense that as they gained power, they can lose that power. Some of them probably ascended to a higher plane, and some who really enjoyed the mortal world stayed behind to keep enjoying it. Remember that many of these gods loved having sex with mortals, and each other. They enjoyed food and drink. So it's not a shock that they would live amongst people when the reigns of power were taken up by someone else (Sidhe).
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My guess is that the nature of the fan is important. If the fan loves you for being in a boy band, the power may be different than fans who see you as a super warrior of some kind. Kind of like with the vampires "you are what you eat".
That's certainly possible. One would think though that they would pick professions closer to what they were. A war god would try being a war hero, a god of beauty would try for being a model etc.
You mean like Angels, and TWG, and Fallen? As Jim said, it's fiction. Anyways I don't think Zeus will be there. He's above it. I think he's like Hades in the sense that he's much bigger. The wrestlers will probably be lesser gods.
Totally agree, he should write about whatever he wants. Doesn't mean he can't do it with care. He often has said he is very cautious about certain religions simply because he doesn't want to cause upset. Plenty of fiction has done justice to various religions so it's far from impossible. I am sure Jim could if he wanted to. I just don't want him to get carried away with the idea of wrestling and accidentally make an error. Indeed, I hope they will just be a few minor gods. Major gods would be difficult to do without it being tacky. Just my opinion though.
Because as power is expended, it needs to be refilled. They must settle for something less because if they try to force people to worship them like before they are liable to get their butts kicked by Mab, or Odin, or others.
Sort of, but not really. Does Uriel need to worry about refilling his power? I don't think it applies to immortals. I think they naturally regenerate their power. And we don't know that they tried to force people to worship them. I mean, much could be said about Christianity forcing countries to worship it's religion rather than the previous one. It's murky territory. I doubt Odin ceded his status willingly. There's reasonable evidence to say Mab was part of another pantheon once too. I don't think it was so much that the gods couldn't force people to worship them. I think a major event caused the gods to either leave or sleep or go mortal. It's unclear why. But I'd be willing to bet it was around the time of the Crucifixion when apparently a lot of balances of power changed.
I think Thor is actually playing football
I know, but I suspect he might get roped into the wrestling book. Just because he's still a famous god. Arguably more famous now than ever.
You have to remember that even in these mythologies (or theologies) that even Zeus was born in this universe. They came into existence from the universe, they were never omnipotent or eternal. Zeus had parents, and his parents had parents.
I mean, maybe...we know that the gods are not even 100% on their own creation stories. Creation really messed up their memories of Before Creation. Many of the gods were omnipotent and eternal. Ra, Atum, Odin, Ahura Mazda, Ptah, Neith, Izanagi, Izanami, the Rainbow Serpent, Brahma, Vishnu, Shiva, Devi, Enki and many more are considered creators in their own stories. I'd say most of them existed before Creation began. Jim did say that the reason most of the stories conflict is because the act of Creation was so powerful and different they have trouble reconciling it with how things were Before (especially in an existence that predated cause and effect).
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I mean, maybe...we know that the gods are not even 100% on their own creation stories. Creation really messed up their memories of Before Creation. Many of the gods were omnipotent and eternal. Ra, Atum, Odin, Ahura Mazda, Ptah, Neith, Izanagi, Izanami, the Rainbow Serpent, Brahma, Vishnu, Shiva, Devi, Enki and many more are considered creators in their own stories. I'd say most of them existed before Creation began. Jim did say that the reason most of the stories conflict is because the act of Creation was so powerful and different they have trouble reconciling it with how things were Before (especially in an existence that predated cause and effect).
I suppose it only makes sense that if the universe is the bright loud house party the Outsiders have been prosecuting a cosmic noise complaint against, the welcomed attendees are going to be a bit foggy on some details by now. Who hasn't been there?
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Nah, Thor wasn't in football. He was pitching for the Mets until he blew out his UCL. Do recall that they liked to throw things at people - not just lightning like Thor. They threw all sorts of things at Balder thinking him invulnerable... until Loki slipped in mistletoe.
(Baseball Thor - Noah Syndergaard, a 6'6" 240 pound pitcher with long blonde hair and a Scandinavian name. One of the hardest throwing starters as well. Even played a Viking in some sitcom once.)
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Nah, Thor wasn't in football. He was pitching for the Mets until he blew out his UCL. Do recall that they liked to throw things at people - not just lightning like Thor. They threw all sorts of things at Balder thinking him invulnerable... until Loki slipped in mistletoe.
(Baseball Thor - Noah Syndergaard, a 6'6" 240 pound pitcher with long blonde hair and a Scandinavian name. One of the hardest throwing starters as well. Even played a Viking in some sitcom once.)
You mean Thor ISN'T Clay Matthews?
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It could also be that it is a pro wrestling book in the same way that the ghost story was a prison book.
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I do agree that it's more fancy demi-gods who'd fit, like Hercules or Diomedes, rather than proper gods like Athena or Zeus.
But then there are plenty Pantheons with gods of the joy/madness of battle like Ares, who'd love senseless slaughter but would be happy with senseless non-lethal violence in between.
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I think, as we saw with Harry's discussion with Hades, that Butcher considers a lot of the Greek Pantheon... immature. I mean look at all the stuff Zeus did. He might have been powerful at one time, but he sure wasn't full of foresight like Odin. We might be seeing what happens when a God doesn't play their cards as well as Odin. On the other hand, they aren't asleep like a lot of the old gods, and seem to be able to be fully active in the physical world without "breaking it" like the dragons and the like need to worry about, so maybe they've accepted the downgrade in power for a reason - to still be able to effect the physical world. But if they were doing that for much of a good reason you would think they would be signatories of the accords and present to help out in Chicago, so who knows. Also, we know some members of the Pantheon (Hecate-Mab) wear different mantles, so we might be seeing some interesting plays there as well. Finally, I want to see Athena. She should have played her cards right, and she at least started as a divine level spirit of intellect. Love to see how that worked out, and how Zues and Harry talk about the process....
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I think, as we saw with Harry's discussion with Hades, that Butcher considers a lot of the Greek Pantheon... immature. I mean look at all the stuff Zeus did. He might have been powerful at one time, but he sure wasn't full of foresight like Odin. We might be seeing what happens when a God doesn't play their cards as well as Odin. On the other hand, they aren't asleep like a lot of the old gods, and seem to be able to be fully active in the physical world without "breaking it" like the dragons and the like need to worry about, so maybe they've accepted the downgrade in power for a reason - to still be able to effect the physical world. But if they were doing that for much of a good reason you would think they would be signatories of the accords and present to help out in Chicago, so who knows. Also, we know some members of the Pantheon (Hecate-Mab) wear different mantles, so we might be seeing some interesting plays there as well. Finally, I want to see Athena. She should have played her cards right, and she at least started as a divine level spirit of intellect. Love to see how that worked out, and how Zues and Harry talk about the process....
You mean a goddess of reason and strategic warfare, who had the occasional spike of human emotion, and a virginal aspect?
If Athena wasn't part of making the Faerie Queens (in her case, the Winter side) I don't know who was ;)
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You mean a goddess of reason and strategic warfare, who had the occasional spike of human emotion, and a virginal aspect?
If Athena wasn't part of making the Faerie Queens (in her case, the Winter side) I don't know who was ;)
I am of the opinion that several members of the Greek pantheon threw in some pieces (or all) of themselves to help form the faerie courts (specifically on the Stone Table). Hecate and the Fates for sure, but also ones like Persephone and Demeter. To push this idea further, a Greek god such as Pan makes for a good Eldest Gruff analog, and things like that. (Also fun fact, Hecate is associated with dogs, a good analog for the summer/winter knight)
Athena is a tricky one because Mab fits the bill for her best, but she's definitely not got the virginal aspect (that's the Ladies). The fact that the Archive exists makes me second guess on her as well.
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I am of the opinion that several members of the Greek pantheon threw in some pieces (or all) of themselves to help form the faerie courts (specifically on the Stone Table). Hecate and the Fates for sure, but also ones like Persephone and Demeter. To push this idea further, a Greek god such as Pan makes for a good Eldest Gruff analog, and things like that. (Also fun fact, Hecate is associated with dogs, a good analog for the summer/winter knight)
Athena is a tricky one because Mab fits the bill for her best, but she's definitely not got the virginal aspect (that's the Ladies). The fact that the Archive exists makes me second guess on her as well.
I think the comparison of Zeus birthing Athena and Dresden birthing Bonea is too much for Jim to leave out as an item. I anticipate that means we'll be meeting Athena, but I could be wrong. It would be interesting to see what other facets she has. We already know the courts are at least somehow affiliated with Hecate, but it would be interesting to see if there is another combo. I also think we might start to get a look at how the mothers might tie in as well as fates/norns (since we already sort of know that), or possibly more.
It's an interesting idea of what happens if a God is killed on the table. I hadn't though about how that might be done, since that should be able to dismantle a mantle, so to speak. I wonder if it "purifies" the energy source in any way? Part of the problem with doing anything with the power in demonreach is that it is essentially innately evil. I wonder if you could get a being out of Demonreach and onto the Table and sacrificed fast enough, if the table could cleanse it down to pure (untainted) power...
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I think the comparison of Zeus birthing Athena and Dresden birthing Bonea is too much for Jim to leave out as an item. I anticipate that means we'll be meeting Athena, but I could be wrong. It would be interesting to see what other facets she has. We already know the courts are at least somehow affiliated with Hecate, but it would be interesting to see if there is another combo. I also think we might start to get a look at how the mothers might tie in as well as fates/norns (since we already sort of know that), or possibly more.
It's an interesting idea of what happens if a God is killed on the table. I hadn't though about how that might be done, since that should be able to dismantle a mantle, so to speak. I wonder if it "purifies" the energy source in any way? Part of the problem with doing anything with the power in demonreach is that it is essentially innately evil. I wonder if you could get a being out of Demonreach and onto the Table and sacrificed fast enough, if the table could cleanse it down to pure (untainted) power...
Possibly with Athena. It might also be a footnote with a Zeus conversation.
My internal framework for the Stone Table is that it takes mantles and allows them to be split/combined however needed before they're distributed again. So, knife the Fates on the table then knife Hecate and send the proper pieces of them all to the six queens. Repeat for Demeter and Persephone. Throw in the Morrigan, et cetra. Do it enough, and you've got the six queens emerging as the top dogs. (To be clear, probably not every fae gained from this; a theoretical Eldest Gruff may have gotten the Pan mantle the old fashioned way like Odin got Kringle)
5. cowl with darkhallow – really? just a bunch of spirits…
If he’d succeeded, he’d have had the collective power of all of those supernatural beings and then some. He’d have been clearly stronger than the Ladies, and a full-on equal to Mab. I mean, why do you think the Erlking was summoned as part of that ritual? Because that’s how the big E got so boss in the first place. :)
For that matter, how do you think the Mothers and Queens and Ladies established their original base of power? That big old sacrificial, power-sucking stone table in Tir na noth isn’t there for its primitive decorative aesthetic.
As far as Demonreach, I'm not confident that those mantles can be "cleansed". It would be more of a "you are what you eat" for anyone that gobbled pieces of that power. After all, if Hecate was sacrificed into the six queens, they still exhibit characteristics of her.
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Would winter have become more like summer if the summer knight was sacrificed on the stone table?
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Would winter have become more like summer if the summer knight was sacrificed on the stone table?
The Summer knight is probably not metaphysically heavy enough to perceptibly change Winter. The knight is an order of magnitude lower than a Lady, who is an order of magnitude below a Queen, who is at least an order of magnitude below the Mothers.
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Ok, but if, when they make that battlefield where the stone table is on, the more one side wins, the more that side becomes like the loser, then the battle seems pointless. Lets say that summer won a really big victory, would they then be halfway winter?
Maybe the stone table is a bit like thoroughly preparing your food before you eat it. It still matters what you eat, but a lot less than if you eat it raw.
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Fair enough although the reactions at any major event are similar - music concerts, boxing matches, UFC, various sporting codes, plenty of mega-churches (of any major religion), motivational speaker seminars (think Tony Robinson), movie premieres etc.
People love celebrities. It's pretty well known.
To be honest...I am expecting to be disappointed by this book. It's a bit too corny for me - which isn't to say I don't enjoy wrestling. But at most I'd expect only a few cameos like Hercules and Thor maybe. I'd hate to see Zeus etc. It would feel a bit cheap. And possibly a bit disrespectful depending on the religion.
The problem is that the gods of pantheons other than Christianity have been worshipped by thousands, perhaps millions before. They've had animals and humans sacrificed to them. Temples and statues built in their name. Sure they've faded into the background now. But why settle for something less?
I can see Aphrodite becoming a model or head of a fashion magazine etc. But why would she settle for wrestling? Why would Thor, would has killed hundreds of monsters? Hercules may have only defeated a score or two of monsters, but they were real challenges.
I kinda feel like Jim came up with this in his younger days and thought it was a good idea then. I'd hoped he would mature a bit and see ways to do that book in more interesting ways but it seems not sadly.
I agree completely on every point. I'm with you.
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I agree completely on every point. I'm with you.
I am as well, let us hope the outline is flexible..
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Would winter have become more like summer if the summer knight was sacrificed on the stone table?
Considering the power would have actually gone over to winter instead of having a matter/anti-matter reaction that takes out a summer knight sized chunk of winter's power there's got to be some kind of filtering system in the stone table, we just don't have details.
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Considering the power would have actually gone over to winter instead of having a matter/anti-matter reaction that takes out a summer knight sized chunk of winter's power there's got to be some kind of filtering system in the stone table, we just don't have details.
That happens and the world is in danger either way, there has to be balance.
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Would winter have become more like summer if the summer knight was sacrificed on the stone table?
I believe the Table would break it down into pure energy for Winter to use, and not to make Winter a little more like Summer.
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(Also fun fact, Hecate is associated with dogs, a good analog for the summer/winter knight)
A goddess after my own heart.
The fact that the Archive exists makes me second guess on her as well.
Yeah. It was mentioned that the Pythia were Archives using knowledge of the past to predict the future, and there is a certain amount of hereditary power there involved in passing down the Archive. Personally, I think that the other children of previous Archives (I don't think it's ever stated that they only have one child, so it makes sense that there would be offshoots of the main Archive branch) have been seen in the series. Namely, I think that the non-chosen descendants of previous Archives are the ones who have Cassandra's Tears, like Lydia (whose real name was Barbara, if I remember right).
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A goddess after my own heart.
Yeah. It was mentioned that the Pythia were Archives using knowledge of the past to predict the future, and there is a certain amount of hereditary power there involved in passing down the Archive. Personally, I think that the other children of previous Archives (I don't think it's ever stated that they only have one child, so it makes sense that there would be offshoots of the main Archive branch) have been seen in the series. Namely, I think that the non-chosen descendants of previous Archives are the ones who have Cassandra's Tears, like Lydia (whose real name was Barbara, if I remember right).
I don't remember the Barbara part, but that seems like a neat possible connection.
I'd also throw the various sibyls in as Archives. The weird part about an Athena=Archive angle is the Apollo connection. If the Delphi oracle was the Archive, where is Apollo coming into play?
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Yeah, but now they are all migrating to acting.
If Jim doesn’t have a Greek God, turned Wrestler, turned Actor, cast as a Greek God in a film he will be missing a trick.
Dwayne Johnson played Maui of course so definitely not implausible.