If this has been discussed elsewhere, please accept my apologies...
If Lara were to become nemfected, would that give Nemesis any advantage given her involvement in the Oblivion War? Would Jim want to use that to bring that conflict into the main book series?
If I remember correctly that he doesn't plan to have Harry involved in the Oblivion War, is this a clue to show that Lara won't be nemfected in order to keep it out?
thoughts?
I'm not even 100% convinced that there is an Oblivion War.
I'm not even 100% convinced that there is an Oblivion War.The author bit in Side Jobs certainly makes it sound like there is. It could be Lara's manipulation, but that's awfully disingenuous and unresolveable within the scope of the series. In short, the met answer proves you wrong.
Ivy's existence is the Oblivion War.. Her purpose is to erase the Old gods from reality.Care to explain how storing knowledge of them erases knowledge of them? That seems... Off.
Care to explain how storing knowledge of them erases knowledge of them? That seems... Off.Basically, she coordinates the effort to remove books and other sources of information about the Old Gods. Then, when she hasn't heard a certain name come up in any source for 3 or 4 centuries she assumes that everyone else has forgotten about it and 'deletes' it from the archive.
Basically, she coordinates the effort to remove books and other sources of information about the Old Gods. Then, when she hasn't heard a certain name come up in any source for 3 or 4 centuries she assumes that everyone else has forgotten about it and 'deletes' it from the archive.Do we have a source on this? Because that is decidedly anti-neutral. And given the regular crazy associated with past Archives it seems like that would be ineffective.
It's a long game.
Do we have a source on this? Because that is decidedly anti-neutral. And given the regular crazy associated with past Archives it seems like that would be ineffective.
Jim. The Archive isn't neutral with the Old Gods, just in other things. When it comes to killing people who are connected to the Old Ones Ivy is without mercy. The only crazy i know of is her mother, and that's because she took on the mantle at such a young age. Her mother was murdered, and she got it too early.You say her mother was murdered? Do you have a source for that? As I recall, Ivy's mother was young(upper teens maybe twenty something?) and in love, when her mother was killed in a car crash, Ivy's mom flipped out over becoming the Archive and no longer having "her" life, that as soon as Ivy was born, she committed suicide.
Do we have a source on this? Because that is decidedly anti-neutral. And given the regular crazy associated with past Archives it seems like that would be ineffective.
Aminar, here is the posting from Jim ...Thanks for the source.
http://www.jimbutcheronline.com/bb/index.php/topic,34801.msg1663694.html#msg1663694 (http://www.jimbutcheronline.com/bb/index.php/topic,34801.msg1663694.html#msg1663694)
There's still plenty of damage Nemesis could do with control of Lara (assuming it can even control her in the first place) without needing to bring the Oblivion War into things. I wouldn't put her at any more or less risk for infection because of it.
I'm still wondering IF Laura can be Nemfected. The only real people I know of are the Sidhe that actually go bonkers. You don't see people like Eb, or Langtry, or Rashid, getting Nemfected, and if they were it would be devastating.
||WAG Notice||Makes you wonder if the Blackstaff can cure infection, and Eb possessing it doomed Maeve.
Unless you do, and it's call Black Magic and Going Warlock. Or Dark Lord, in the case of a SC member.
So really, you only see Eb not getting Nemfected. Which makes sense given who the Blackstaff used to belong to and who her real enemy is.
Makes you wonder if the Blackstaff can cure infection, and Eb possessing it doomed Maeve.
I can totally see Harry beating himself up over that. "If only I had told Eb he could have helped cure Maeve, save Molly, and as an aside make Mab as good as adore me."Don't get me wrong, I still think cooperation would have been required. That was the only difference between Maeve and Lea. One wanted to be cured. But I'm sure Harry wishes he knew about it, or the prison option.
Makes you wonder if the Blackstaff can cure infection, and Eb possessing it doomed Maeve.It doesn't really add up. Going Warlock is a strictly mortal thing. How would Sith have gone Warlock? Whatever taint Black Magic brings, it's a separate thing.
You say her mother was murdered? Do you have a source for that? As I recall, Ivy's mother was young(upper teens maybe twenty something?) and in love, when her mother was killed in a car crash, Ivy's mom flipped out over becoming the Archive and no longer having "her" life, that as soon as Ivy was born, she committed suicide.
The author bit in Side Jobs certainly makes it sound like there is. It could be Lara's manipulation, but that's awfully disingenuous and unresolveable within the scope of the series. In short, the met answer proves you wrong.
Makes you wonder if the Blackstaff can cure infection, and Eb possessing it doomed Maeve.Possible, if it can do so for someone other than it's (presumably0 bonded wielder). And No, Maeve doomed herself by being a spoiled prat, but since the Staff needs informed consent from it's wielder I have to think it would have needed the same willing participation that Mab did. In fact, Mab's ability to cure Nemfection might be directly related to the mechanism of the blackstaff. Assuming of course that both the underlying theories are correct (that the Blackstaff is a Winter Artifact and that Black Magic Taint = Nemfection
It doesn't really add up. Going Warlock is a strictly mortal thing. How would Sith have gone Warlock? Whatever taint Black Magic brings, it's a separate thing.The theory is that the supernatural element of Black Magic taint (the bit that the blackstaff protects Eb from, independent of the moral and psychological fallout) is in fact an expression of Nemfection. There are various threads that pull together to make this theory hold some water, but the core idea is that since Magic is the very fundamental force of Creation and since Mortals are directly empowered like no other to affect the fabric of reality (via Soul and Free Will), so when then choose to twist that Power of Life and Creation is one of several specific Extreme ways, it creates a sort of 'crack' in reality that allows a bit of Nemesis Inside. Do it often enough and the accumulated Taint/Nemfection would build up and eventually start influencing you more directly. Since Fae have no Soul, they both do not have the same effect on reality with their magic (just like how they cannot actually Summon Outsiders) but similarly they dont have the same Cosmically protected Choice; so their Nemfections require outside vectors, but also can happen much more swiftly.
Possible, if it can do so for someone other than it's (presumably0 bonded wielder). And No, Maeve doomed herself by being a spoiled prat, but since the Staff needs informed consent from it's wielder I have to think it would have needed the same willing participation that Mab did. In fact, Mab's ability to cure Nemfection might be directly related to the mechanism of the blackstaff. Assuming of course that both the underlying theories are correct (that the Blackstaff is a Winter Artifact and that Black Magic Taint = NemfectionThat doesn't work... It makes Nemesis an absolute moron. I mean, it's only gotten two barely infected agents into the Council via nemfection. It gets most of its human infectees killed, makes them all addicts, and generally breaks their sanity. And its stupidly overt. So personally, no. Bad stupid theory tying unrelated phenomenon together in a silly conspiracy that makes no practical sense.
The theory is that the supernatural element of Black Magic taint (the bit that the blackstaff protects Eb from, independent of the moral and psychological fallout) is in fact an expression of Nemfection. There are various threads that pull together to make this theory hold some water, but the core idea is that since Magic is the very fundamental force of Creation and since Mortals are directly empowered like no other to affect the fabric of reality (via Soul and Free Will), so when then choose to twist that Power of Life and Creation is one of several specific Extreme ways, it creates a sort of 'crack' in reality that allows a bit of Nemesis Inside. Do it often enough and the accumulated Taint/Nemfection would build up and eventually start influencing you more directly. Since Fae have no Soul, they both do not have the same effect on reality with their magic (just like how they cannot actually Summon Outsiders) but similarly they dont have the same Cosmically protected Choice; so their Nemfections require outside vectors, but also can happen much more swiftly.
In a way that disappoints me, because it leaves all the logical holes and contradictions in place. If Lara had been making it up, or distorting it for Thomas, some of those problems would be gone.
That doesn't work... It makes Nemesis an absolute moron. I mean, it's only gotten two barely infected agents into the Council via nemfection. It gets most of its human infectees killed, makes them all addicts, and generally breaks their sanity. And its stupidly overt. So personally, no. Bad stupid theory tying unrelated phenomenon together in a silly conspiracy that makes no practical sense.Hah.
tying unrelated phenomenon together in a silly conspiracy that makes no practical sense.do you have any idea how many theories on this board could be described this way?
That doesn't work... It makes Nemesis an absolute moron. I mean, it's only gotten two barely infected agents into the Council via nemfection. It gets most of its human infectees killed, makes them all addicts, and generally breaks their sanity. And its stupidly overt. So personally, no. Bad stupid theory tying unrelated phenomenon together in a silly conspiracy that makes no practical sense.
Two Winter Lady's killed. Mab "doing what she thought best" for Leah according to Jim which sounds a little ominous to me... What may appear moronic might be the exact opposite if you knew the long game. If Jim is writing it right it's much more like chess than checkers. Those who were openly infected may have been so purposely while covert agents don't appear infected at all.
That doesn't work... It makes Nemesis an absolute moron. I mean, it's only gotten two barely infected agents into the Council via nemfection. It gets most of its human infectees killed, makes them all addicts, and generally breaks their sanity. And its stupidly overt. So personally, no. Bad stupid theory tying unrelated phenomenon together in a silly conspiracy that makes no practical sense.(http://patrick.net/content/uploads/2014/08/poke-beehive.jpg)
Q,I dont either, I just think it is aware and watching and is ready to Pounce. I see it as very much a targeted sort of thing and still an actual consciousness as described. Im simply imagining a much bigger (or Deeper, per Harry in CD) sort of entity, one that is on constant watch for when a mortal practitioner abuses Reality enough to create this crack and is ready to exploit it. There arent actually that many mortal practitioners out there on the absolute scale, too many for a council of hundreds to police world-wide, but occasionally one that has both the strength and the inclination will warp reality on it self so hard (and/or so often) that a crack forms, then gets wider and wider with use (think how ice destroys concrete) until it's enough for Nemesis to get something through and start more actively pushing (taint), and eventually enough to move from pushing to steering (Nemfection).
I've been thinking about this and I'm having a hard time buying the effects of black magic being a form of Nemfection.
I get it that using black magic can drive someone ... off center (like the Korean kid in PG), but that could be something similar to going crazy from a syphilis infection.
We know Nemesis is an outsider with an intelligence and a purpose. We know that Nemesis can vary the amount of control it exerts over one it has infected. We don't know if it takes a volunteer to be an Aurora or Maeve type of infection, or if it's really more like a Cat-Sith infection, and is only masked.
We saw the Leansidhe fighting it, but we don't know how much influence it had before she realized her error and asked for help.
I'm thinking Nemesis is an infection and has a scale of control from Aurora (barely whispering in her hear), through Maeve (probably talking like Lash did), to total full on possession like Cat-sith.
I just don't see it as a general virus like Syphilis.
I dont either, I just think it is aware and watching and is ready to Pounce. I see it as very much a targeted sort of thing and still an actual consciousness as described. Im simply imagining a much bigger (or Deeper, per Harry in CD) sort of entity, one that is on constant watch for when a mortal practitioner abuses Reality enough to create this crack and is ready to exploit it. There arent actually that many mortal practitioners out there on the absolute scale, too many for a council of hundreds to police world-wide, but occasionally one that has both the strength and the inclination will warp reality on it self so hard (and/or so often) that a crack forms, then gets wider and wider with use (think how ice destroys concrete) until it's enough for Nemesis to get something through and start more actively pushing (taint), and eventually enough to move from pushing to steering (Nemfection).
The big cluebat for me is the Blackstaff; If Winter's whole purpose is Anti-Outsider, its most powerful (theoretically) artifact should be similarly targeted. Meanwhile it makes no sense to me for the true use and Power of Mother Winter's personal Artifact to be to solve a problem that s unique to mortal kind and being a moral issue is not something that would even register to a Fae. If I could find another explanation for the Blackstaff Id be all over it.
Who says that's the Blackstaff's "True" use and power?I dont think we've seen /all/ it can do persay, but the WOJ are thus far all relatively direct (if not legallese locked in) that it just does that one thing. In light of that I expect new revelations will more be an expansion of it's current ("protective") function rather than a wholly new Power, I figure we'll find out it's an Outsider weapon that the Olympians claimed in Battle way back in the day, or that it is literally Eating Outsider Souls (per the Black Magic=Nemesis Theory), or some such that explains the insulation property but in doing so also opens more options.
You can use a rifle to hammer in a nail, but that doesn't mean that's the true use.
2013 Wyrdcon Q&A
The Blackstaff is not sentient per se it’s just really, really, really powerful and tapped into like some serious elemental powers in the universe. But basically all it really is is insulation from using those powers.
QuoteIn a way that disappoints me, because it leaves all the logical holes and contradictions in place. If Lara had been making it up, or distorting it for Thomas, some of those problems would be gone.I don't see how. JB has thought this out and his explanation not only makes sense but is verified in the series. Lara doesn't need to create a whole mysterious ruse to control Thomas, we have seen her do it with much simpler methods, more traditional White Court methods.
I can think of two ways to make the Oblivion War make sense...
1) Things have changed.
Once upon a time, eldritch horrors could come and go and make themselves known to early man. Something changed (perhaps the building of the Outer Gates or the rise of organized pantheons of gods who pushed out other powerful beings who might compete for worship) and now only the knowledge of free-willed humans keeps them tethered at all to our world.
or
2) First Contact is Hard.
In Proven Guilty, Harry describes how things can cross over from the NeverNever -- either someone here calls to it (even unconsciously as it turns out) or something really, really powerful pushes it through from the other side.
It stands to reason that something making contact from "the other side" for the first time would have to push through -- requiring a substantial amount of effort. Perhaps it's also hard to find our world out of all of the possible worlds and the vast space of the NeverNever, so it would take an eldritch horror a long time and a lot of energy to get back here once it's been forgotten.
What if the only things that are subject to the Oblivion war are things of the DV. Outsiders wouldn't get elimnated but any Dark Horror dreamed up by man could thus be erased, letting the focus return the real problem. These would/could have been around as far back as man feared the dark and its unknown terrors. If it happens to be an Outsider inspired eldritch that crossed into the DV plane of the MV it simply gets shunted back, not destroyed.
Makes one wonder if Thomas isn't a 'traitor' because of his venatori work?To whom? The White Court? He goes after competitors to the White Court, to reduce predator pressure on their prey.
To whom? The White Court? He goes after competitors to the White Court, to reduce predator pressure on their prey.To those things hanging on a thread from true oblivions doorstep mostly. Things whose true forms and names are lost to time itself but whom still keep a foothold in reality by reinventing themselves. Things like white court vampires and descendants of the greek gods of love and war. that sort of broad stuff.
To those things hanging on a thread from true oblivions doorstep mostly. Things whose true forms and names are lost to time itself but whom still keep a foothold in reality by reinventing themselves. Things like white court vampires and descendants of the greek gods of love and war. that sort of broad stuff.And why would he have any responsibility to them that he might somehow "betray"? He has responsibilities to Family, to Love, and to his Court. He can be their enemy without betraying them.
And why would he have any responsibility to them that he might somehow "betray"? He has responsibilities to Family, to Love, and to his Court. He can be their enemy without betraying them.The white court are probably closer to Outsiders then even the Ramps, the ramps demon comes through and finds a place here. Wamps straddle the line with their demon stuck on the other side, if how Thomas's demon looks in soul gaze is any indication. That's the part that makes them half born, yea? Of course that takes as a given that Oblivion is just the final step of Outside.
Also, fwiw, the White Court as a fundamentally Mortal (IE still have Souls and Free Will) group of "half-born" wouldnt be subject to Oblivion.