ParanetOnline
The Dresden Files => DF Spoilers => Topic started by: Tinfoil hat on July 09, 2023, 07:25:53 PM
-
We have discussed how the WC is old and needs to change my question is how. This was brought on by a discussion on reforming the UN. Another useless organization. Or is it?
Do you do get rid of the SC position?. Or have wizards vote for them. DEMOCRACY BOY!!!!. Bare in mind the SC is feared and is the reason why the WC IS FEARED. Luccio implies that as long as the SC stands wizards will win the RC war no matter what happens to the wardens. Do choose a Merlin who is weak but good at politics? How will you hold the WC together? If the SC is now weak.
Do you give little talent membership? Will they vote?
-
Well Harry is a Nuclear Power and therefore deserves a permanent seat on the Security Council.
-
Given his behavior. Invading nations, disregarding rules of law he would fit right in with the rest
-
You commit genocide once and they never forget.
-
It wasn't even a big genocide just a tiny one. It actually how i go in to the series. A friend was like the books are great, Dresden kills those who mess with him, burns those who mess with is friends and kills your whole species if you mess with his daughter. I was sold on the books
-
WC is out, paranet is in. It's a cycle lol. Order of druids are out, wizard's are in, ect.
-
Yes the Paranet is the ultimate fusion of two limbs of evolution of defense against the supernatural predators (1) magical talent and (2) use of technology.
That would make Paranoid Gary the omega point of human evolution.
Oh crap.
But in The Law we see how he out performs Bob the previously all knowing talking head Spirit of Intellect. He has out evolved Bob
-
My issue with the paranet is thaf its too loose anyone cn join. Paranoid Gary. That guy will upset something/someone and require protection plenty soon.
Who is in charge
-
My issue with the paranet ...
Who is in charge
Elaine Mallory.
Probable Starborn.
Likely Nemesis-infectee (she's the vector that got Aurora).
-
Well Harry is a Nuclear Power and therefore deserves a permanent seat on the Security Council.
I have a WAG that the "White Council" (which, by definition, are advisors -- councilors -- to someone above them) are supposed to be adjuncts to The Warden, and the wardens of the White Council are supposed to be direct-reports to The Warden, not to the Council.
Let's face it: The Warden (with a Wellfull of badassery on tap) is overwhelmingly more-powerful than the entirety of the White Council.
The Warden & the Well, together, protect from threats overwhelmingly more-severe than everything the White Council ever faces -- all the sorcerors they ever put down don't amount to a single Etheniu (let alone multiple entities on that scale); Kemmler might have come close, but not even Darkhallow-Kemmler would have been able to face down the Faerie-Queens & Odin &c in the big battle of Battle Ground.
It only makes sense -- when you consider that both the Well and the White Council were established by Merlin -- that he'd put The Warden up at the apex of authority, and delegate some councilors to handle the smaller details.
-
Elaine Mallory.
Probable Starborn.
Likely Nemesis-infectee (she's the vector that got Aurora).
Unless you consider Nameless to be Cowl, Nameless got Maeve to fix her Court in Chicago during Grave Peril where he nemfected Lea with the Athame. This forced Aurora to move her Court to Chicago and Nameless nemfected her in a similar manner, most likely through Lloyd Slate the Wnter Knight, who it should be noted betrayed Winter despite his Mantle and started working with Summer. The Nemfection left the already hopelessly corrupted Lloyd Slate for Aurora. Elaine was already in the Summer Court for a decade before any Nemfection arose. The progression of Leas nemfection was considerably faster than over a decade and she was older and more powerful.
-
We have discussed how the WC is old and needs to change my question is how. This was brought on by a discussion on reforming the UN. Another useless organization. Or is it?
Do you do get rid of the SC position?. Or have wizards vote for them. DEMOCRACY BOY!!!!. Bare in mind the SC is feared and is the reason why the WC IS FEARED. Luccio implies that as long as the SC stands wizards will win the RC war no matter what happens to the wardens. Do choose a Merlin who is weak but good at politics? How will you hold the WC together? If the SC is now weak.
Do you give little talent membership? Will they vote?
Whatever form the reformed Council took, it would still have to look a lot like the current one to function at all.
The nasty, inescapable fact is that in terms of magical power, 'are men are created unequal', and all women too. Almost anybody, per WOJ, can learn to do a little magic in the Dresdenverse. It would be a lot of hard work for say 90-95% and not much result, probably not worth the trouble and risk.
The remaining 5-10% or so include your moderate talents, the Kim Delaneys, the Binders, the Victor Sells types, the hedge casters and mid-rankers and a few with some serious voltage. Some of them are super-good at some specific subset of magic, like Mort or Binder, but not so much at the rest of it. Of course most of this 5-10% have no idea of their own potential power and never try to use it or train it. But they could do it, potentially, and some of them could do it enough to be useful if they knew it.
But only a tiny fraction of that 5-10% of the human race is remotely at Wizard level. The WC is made up of several thousand people, but that's out of several billion people in the world. Grant that not every Council-potential candidate gets found and trained. Let's say there are three or four potential Wizards for every one that gets identified and trained. Let's say there, oh, maybe 30,000 or 40,000 people on Earth who could, potentially, become a Council member with the right training.
Forty thousand out of eight billion is one person in 200,000. Plus, that's probably over-generous, there probably are fewer potential Wizards than 40,000.
If you open up the Council to all practitioners, you create an organization that is both too big to function and too weak to do anything, and would inevitably end up dominated by the Wizard-level players anyway. The gap is just that big.
Likewise, the Senior Councillors are already technically elected by the overall Council. But if the Council elects a weak SC...then the Council itself is hamstrung in dealing with their enemies and restraining the bad players among the magical community, too. The Council might reasonably elect a merlin who is not the absolute 100% most powerful Council member, if he had other useful talents or abilities. But they would still need to pick someone in that general ballpark.
The way the WC works arises in much because of the realities of how magic works, and how the supernatural world is organized. A reformed or replaced Council is probably going to end up looking at least a lot like the current one, maybe with some new blood and new policies, maybe some changes on the margins.
I could imagine, for ex, that the Council might permit the larger supernatural community to elect representatives to speak for them on the Council, not full members, but associates of some kind. Things like that. I could see a reformed Council being somewhat more 'open' about its doing, at least among the magical community, more willing to listen.
But it's still gonna have to be the White Council, probably from necessity.
-
I have a WAG that the "White Council" (which, by definition, are advisors -- councilors -- to someone above them) are supposed to be adjuncts to The Warden, and the wardens of the White Council are supposed to be direct-reports to The Warden, not to the Council.
Let's face it: The Warden (with a Wellfull of badassery on tap) is overwhelmingly more-powerful than the entirety of the White Council.
Yeah...in the same sense than a man carrying an armed nuclear warhead is more powerful than the city police force. It's power, all right, but it's a very blunt instrument and actually using it is likely to be suicidal.
If Harry threatened to release something big league to force the WC to heel, it might work...once. But now the whole Council, including any who still sympathized with him at all are gonna want him deader than dead, ASAP. Even if he's safe from them on Demonreach (which isn't totally certain but I wouldn't rule it out), he's now more or less trapped there. Plus there are going to be other supernatural players no happier with him.
With the stakes that high, the outside world could try things like taking his loved ones hostage or the like, too. Even a lot of the 'good guys' might resort to such means if the stakes were that high. Plus, if he's corrupt enough to start doing stuff like that, he might get a Knight of the Cross after him. I doubt if even Alfred could be fully sure of protecting Harry against a Knight on the clock.
All in all, it would be a really stupid thing for him to try. Like I said, power, but blunt instrument power. A sledgehammer can be an effective tool of destruction, but it's not much use in fine surgery.
The Warden & the Well, together, protect from threats overwhelmingly more-severe than everything the White Council ever faces -- all the sorcerors they ever put down don't amount to a single Etheniu (let alone multiple entities on that scale); Kemmler might have come close, but not even Darkhallow-Kemmler would have been able to face down the Faerie-Queens & Odin &c in the big battle of Battle Ground.
Demonreach is a prison. It holds the Trouble, but somebody has to put the Trouble in there. That Somebody, usually, is the Wardens and the Council. Those mega-nasties are trapped in Demonreach because the White Council put them there, for the most part. THE Warden can direct Alfred to contain a megapower, and it'll usually happen...IF that mega-nasty happens to be on Demonreach.
Paraphrasing JB a while back, 'what you think of Alfred and THE Warden depends on where you stand, literally. Meaning your GPS coordinates. If you're on the island, you'd better bring your A game. If you're anywhere else, it's "who cares?" '.
Demonreach is a part of the Council's extended power base and 'system'. It's not the whole of it and it's not the sole reason for the Council's existence, and without the Council, Demonreach would be very nearly useless.
-
... This forced Aurora to move her Court to Chicago and Nameless nemfected her in a similar manner, most likely through Lloyd Slate the Wnter Knight, who it should be noted betrayed Winter despite his Mantle and started working with Summer ...
I find it a bit dubious that any Summer Lady would ever trust a Winter Knight enough to give him the chance to Nemfect her. I expect Aurora's own (pre-existing) Nemfection led to the cross-Court alliance.
Slate's Mantle guaranteed obedience only to Winter Law, not to a member of the Court (even the Queens). WK-Harry has no problems contacting WL-Lily, chatting with her, etc etc etc. He has no problems considering how to thwart Mab, or Maeve; nor does he have problems actually doing so.
... Elaine was already in the Summer Court for a decade before any Nemfection arose. The progression of Leas nemfection was considerably faster than over a decade and she was older and more powerful.
We *know* that Nemesis is fine with playing the Long Game... a decade? Ffft.
But -- notwithstanding the possibility that Lea outclassed the Summer Lady in "raw power" -- it's also very possible that something to do with Mantles gave Aurora an extra "edge" that Lea didn't have (an "edge" that already-chafing-and-resentful Maeve didn't want, didn't use).
With Justin a known Outsider-summoner, known to work with mental-domination magic, Elaine as the athame striking Summer is a top-tier candidate for the Nemfection-vector.
-
Whatever form the reformed Council took, it would still have to look a lot like the current one to function at all.
The nasty, inescapable fact is that in terms of magical power, 'are men are created unequal', and all women too. Almost anybody, per WOJ, can learn to do a little magic in the Dresdenverse. It would be a lot of hard work for say 90-95% and not much result, probably not worth the trouble and risk.
The remaining 5-10% or so include your moderate talents, the Kim Delaneys, the Binders, the Victor Sells types, the hedge casters and mid-rankers and a few with some serious voltage. Some of them are super-good at some specific subset of magic, like Mort or Binder, but not so much at the rest of it. Of course most of this 5-10% have no idea of their own potential power and never try to use it or train it. But they could do it, potentially, and some of them could do it enough to be useful if they knew it.
But only a tiny fraction of that 5-10% of the human race is remotely at Wizard level. The WC is made up of several thousand people, but that's out of several billion people in the world. Grant that not every Council-potential candidate gets found and trained. Let's say there are three or four potential Wizards for every one that gets identified and trained. Let's say there, oh, maybe 30,000 or 40,000 people on Earth who could, potentially, become a Council member with the right training.
Forty thousand out of eight billion is one person in 200,000. Plus, that's probably over-generous, there probably are fewer potential Wizards than 40,000.
If you open up the Council to all practitioners, you create an organization that is both too big to function and too weak to do anything, and would inevitably end up dominated by the Wizard-level players anyway. The gap is just that big.
Likewise, the Senior Councillors are already technically elected by the overall Council. But if the Council elects a weak SC...then the Council itself is hamstrung in dealing with their enemies and restraining the bad players among the magical community, too. The Council might reasonably elect a merlin who is not the absolute 100% most powerful Council member, if he had other useful talents or abilities. But they would still need to pick someone in that general ballpark.
The way the WC works arises in much because of the realities of how magic works, and how the supernatural world is organized. A reformed or replaced Council is probably going to end up looking at least a lot like the current one, maybe with some new blood and new policies, maybe some changes on the margins.
I could imagine, for ex, that the Council might permit the larger supernatural community to elect representatives to speak for them on the Council, not full members, but associates of some kind. Things like that. I could see a reformed Council being somewhat more 'open' about its doing, at least among the magical community, more willing to listen.
But it's still gonna have to be the White Council, probably from necessity.
The White Council is fading. They rose to power primarily because of their nearly-unique mix of ability-to-find-stuff-out, ability-to-coordinate (via Ways & other magic-comm's), and logistical advantages. The modern world's Internet can out-info and out-communicate the White Council, and modern transport are a close-second-place for physical logistics. With the exception of a few individuals (not the WC as a whole!) the Wizards simply haven't kept up. In The Law, we see Paranoid Gary out-research Bob, regarding a supernatural threat. Arguably, then, the Paranet has already surpassed the WC in some regards; "Information" -- knowledge, data, the relationship between them (and the differences) -- is its own whole (mostly-modern) field of (intense) study, in ways prior generations (including wizards) cannot conceive.
Knowledge, they say, is power. Harry has hammered on this point repeatedly: wizards (he in particular) can achieve startling victories, by virtue of knowing their foes and prepping ahead of time. WoJ says this is how the WC got to be as powerful as it did (and why being locked-out of the modern info-rich world is, inevitably, sapping that power).
Knowledge is, in fact, more powerful than raw power. Again, WoJ emphasizes that "punching-match" power-comparisons are largely beside the point, in the Dresdenverse. The one who has the better info, the better prep, is the one who wins.
===
As for an "expanded council" being "too big to function" -- please note that this is exactly how many modern nations work today, the "representative democracies." All the citizens (millions of them!) vote for "representatives" who actually form the government. In the USA's Federal government, there's roughly 450 elected offices; the UK's Houses of Lords+Commons is over 1400 IIRC. And then there are a huge number of state/province/county/parish/etc representatives, also elected. The size, complexity, and variety are staggering.
So "growing" the active "wizarding world" membership is clearly viable.
And it's terribly, horribly necessary: there are increasing numbers of Wizard-level talents going Warlock, and needing to be killed. First off, that's horrific in its own right, as these people were mostly victims of ignorance, who could have been decent upstanding Wizards if only given proper training; it borders on being "negligent homicide" on the part of the WC. But from a purely-cynical & self-interested perspective: the Wizards need those warlocks they're killing. The threat-levels from the Supernatural world have increased (those Rampire punks almost took them, fer cryin' out loud!), and look to be increasing further. The Black Council is still operating without any overt WC awareness or opposition. The White Council is losing.
But it's not just the Wizard-level talents. Harry has been impressed, more than once, by sub-wizard level Wards. The Ordo Lebes had surprisingly-strong wards they collectively-raised on all their doors, and put similar wards up for Butters. The Paranet exists largely to help the lower-level talents survive under these new threat-levels, and it has largely been succeeding. Talents like Paranoid Gary & Mort, in their specific spheres, exceed anything the WC can muster! And there are millions of them, not mere thousands.
Those millions are essential if the WC is to spot, educate, and organize the talents of the world into something that can survive the upcoming apocalypse.
And not as the second-class-citizens you suggest. Most of them are modern folk, and won't be willing to suffer that kind of prejudice & stigma.
-
Can Starborn be Nemesis infected? I thought that they couldn't be affected. That's why Justin was so keen on having Harry and Elaine -- two Starborn wizards that obeyed.
-
Yeah...in the same sense than a man carrying an armed nuclear warhead is more powerful than the city police force. It's power, all right, but it's a very blunt instrument and actually using it is likely to be suicidal.
I don't think we have any clear notion of what, exactly, the Warden can (and cannot) do with the prisoners.
Maybe they'r a blunt instrument. Maybe they can be more like an épée, or a scalpel.
Maybe it depends on the specific prisoner, with a variety the Warden can call upon depending on the need.
Also: the Well itself, and the Ley-Line nexus, represents a huge magical asset in any conflict. Harry needs to build up his own skill & power enough to handle that power, but in time he can doubtless channel magic that's many of times stronger than any spell cast from his own internal resources.
...
If Harry threatened to release something big league to force the WC to heel, it might work...once. But now the whole Council, including any who still sympathized with him at all are gonna want him deader than dead, ASAP. Even if he's safe from them on Demonreach (which isn't totally certain but I wouldn't rule it out), he's now more or less trapped there. Plus there are going to be other supernatural players no happier with him.
With the stakes that high, the outside world could try things like taking his loved ones hostage or the like, too. Even a lot of the 'good guys' might resort to such means if the stakes were that high. Plus, if he's corrupt enough to start doing stuff like that, he might get a Knight of the Cross after him. I doubt if even Alfred could be fully sure of protecting Harry against a Knight on the clock.
All in all, it would be a really stupid thing for him to try ...
You present this as Harry-the-Dark-Lord.
What if Harry is just fulfilling Bianca's headstone: He diedpimpslapped the WC Trying to Do the Right Thing.
The WC isn't a monolithic power-bloc; it presents itself that way to outsiders, and tends to act en mass if it acts at all; but it's rife with internal rivalries and divisions. You can be damned sure the White Council is working as hard as they can to (subtly) surveil him, and a lot of the surveillance will be done by sneakier Wardens, many of whom have already held Harry in high esteem... and what they will discover is that Harry continues to Stick Up For The Little Guy, continues to Protect Mortals From Monsters, &c. In other words, act ethically and responsibly. They will remember -- what's the very first thing Harry Dresden did when he became the WK? Destroyed the Red Court (who had been slowly winning the war, up until then).
So if -- for example -- Dresden comes to the WC with overwhelming force and says, "time for necromancy, folks... yeah it's dark and dangerous, but it's the only way we can take down the rest of the Blampires, so you WILL use it, this once..." he might just play to a more-sympathetic audience than Dark-Lord-Harry would.
...
Demonreach is a prison. It holds the Trouble, but somebody has to put the Trouble in there. That Somebody, usually, is the Wardens and the Council ...
They can't.
Without the bond to Alfred/Demonreach, they cannot interact with the prison (except as interlopers).
Only THE Warden can put a prisoner into a cell on that island.
Undoubtedly, the WC can assist. They can help ID & track-down beings who need to be put there. They can help whittle them down, make them vulnerable to the bindings. They can identify weaknesses, unearth True Names, etc etc etc.
-
Can Starborn be Nemesis infected? I thought that they couldn't be affected. That's why Justin was so keen on having Harry and Elaine -- two Starborn wizards that obeyed.
I don't think we know for sure either way.
I have a WAG that a "Destroyer" (from the Morgan-microfic Journal) is just that -- a Nemfected Starborn.
-
It’s probably where Nemesis is let in voluntarily, free will by the Starborn. Otherwise no cigar
-
Can Starborn be Nemesis infected? I thought that they couldn't be affected...
Returning to this point -- the Starborn certainly can be affected by Outsiders.
Harry certainly has been!
He just hasn't been beaten by them (though that one time, he needed Lash's help to recover before the expiry of that deadline imposed by a bunch of C4).
The Starborn are just resistant to Outsiders, in ways most mortals are not (and their magic is much stronger against the Outsiders than most mortals' magic is).
-
They can't.
Without the bond to Alfred/Demonreach, they cannot interact with the prison (except as interlopers).
Lily activated the circle trap without actually interfering with his functionality or yet impinging upon it's security. Would seem the absence of a warden but the need to use DR's primary function was already forethought.
and their magic is much stronger against the Outsiders than most mortals' magic is).
How? Or When? Most of Harry's strength against them has come from his Will so far. Or the luck of having ordinary flammable material all around to create something not so easily sloughed off? Any time he's used his magic directly against outsiders sans any winter help, it's not done anything spectacularly different than anyone else's. (Here's looking at lord Raith's outsider based magical protection) the corner hounds for instance, were not more vulnerable to his magic compared to Eb's(and they used regular fire to greater effect there too) so what makes you think it's stronger magic specifically?
-
Lily activated the circle trap without actually interfering with his functionality or yet impinging upon it's security. Would seem the absence of a warden but the need to use DR's primary function was already forethought ...
That was a circle. Empower it, and it's a magically-empowered circle.
Had some extra enchantment's, no doubt, if you poured-in enough mojo... I presume the faerie ladies had enough. But in the end, it was still just a circle, and a very-minor piece of Demonreach's outer defenses.
She had no access from there to the inner defenses, nor to the prisoners; as you'll recall, Lily & Maeve were trying to breach that barrier.
As best I recall, there has been no hint that anybody but The Warden can put a being into the Well, or get them out.
... How? Or When? Most of Harry's strength against them has come from his Will so far. Or the luck of having ordinary flammable material all around to create something not so easily sloughed off? Any time he's used his magic directly against outsiders sans any winter help, it's not done anything spectacularly different than anyone else's. (Here's looking at lord Raith's outsider based magical protection) the corner hounds for instance, were not more vulnerable to his magic compared to Eb's(and they used regular fire to greater effect there too) so what makes you think it's stronger magic specifically?
Note that Ebenezer (along with Luccio, and Listens-to-Wind) were getting thrashed by the Outsiders, until Michael rescued them, per Proven Guilty.
It's not that Harry's magic is any "stronger," as such (no more so than being any other comparably-strong Wizard). It's that the Starborn have a birthright of power over Outsiders.
Raith's defenses were
(a) something unique, for which we don't have clear understanding or good parameters;
(b) the first time we saw Harry run up directly against Outsider magic;
(c) relatively-early in Harry's career, so he was relatively-weaker and less-experienced;
(d) something he didn't try to overcome: in classic Dresden fashion, he instantly switched tactics to a more-physical attack (keys to the face);
But, in the end... you're right: here, Harry's magic was a squib, in the face of the Outsider magic.
But in White Night, when Lash gains her freedom from Lasciel, she tells Harry that because of
the circumstances of [his] birth ... a complex confluence of events, of energies, of circumstances
he has:
... the potential to wield power over the Outsiders
-
That was a circle. Empower it, and it's a magically-empowered circle.
Had some extra enchantment's, no doubt, if you poured-in enough mojo... I presume the faerie ladies had enough. But in the end, it was still just a circle, and a very-minor piece of Demonreach's outer defenses.
She had no access from there to the inner defenses, nor to the prisoners; as you'll recall, Lily & Maeve were trying to breach that barrier.
As best I recall, there has been no hint that anybody but The Warden can put a being into the Well, or get them out.
it was the circle, not a circle. It wasn't empowered by lily, just activated. The island itself powered it. And as Dresden pointed out, magic circles can be used for summoning. When he summoned Mab her stopping to thank DR was all about the fact he could've just grabbed her and had made the distinction not to on his own. If he'd read it from Dresden she wouldn't have addressed the island spirit itself in that matter. So an outside being can activate the circle. Any sufficient mortal can summon with a circle? And DR doesn't need guidance to grab what's been summoned. Seems to me those three things add up to a back up system to use sans an actual Warden.
Note that Ebenezer (along with Luccio, and Listens-to-Wind) were getting thrashed by the Outsiders, until Michael rescued them, per Proven Guilty.
It's not that Harry's magic is any "stronger," as such (no more so than being any other comparably-strong Wizard). It's that the Starborn have a birthright of power over Outsiders.
Raith's defenses were
(a) something unique, for which we don't have clear understanding or good parameters;
(b) the first time we saw Harry run up directly against Outsider magic;
(c) relatively-early in Harry's career, so he was relatively-weaker and less-experienced;
(d) something he didn't try to overcome: in classic Dresden fashion, he instantly switched tactics to a more-physical attack (keys to the face);
But, in the end... you're right: here, Harry's magic was a squib, in the face of the Outsider magic.
But in White Night, when Lash gains her freedom from Lasciel, she tells Harry that because of he has:
indeed, but that power does not necessarily manifest in his magic. (At least so far)
As others have minced Jim's word(especially when it's from the perspective of a known liar like a Fallen's spirit) I do wonder if that's not also translatable as "rule over". He did bend a walker to his will, even if it was just making it name itself.(another scene we have a woj question on if the wording was intentionally obscured with a simple comma)
-
it was the circle, not a circle. It wasn't empowered by lily, just activated. The island itself powered it.
Cite, please.
If "the island itself" powered the circle, why isn't it always-on? The island's always pumping power, after all! I don't argue that some of the power came from the island and/or the extra enchantments as originally laid-down with the circle... but.
I mean... there's something about a Circle that's inherently potent. Zero-magic Butters was able to power-up a zombie-proof circle and defy the same horde that took down Harry's own wards on his apartment.
But we know from Fool Moon that Kim (while not White-Council level) had non-trivial magic of her own, but not enough to power-up enough of a Circle to hold a Loup-Garou. We know Harry took some pains to restrain the Erlking, and still barely had enough mojo to do the job.
I think ancillary enchantments helped inform the nature of the circle (and the loophole of covering themselves with mud), but the circle itself needed some jump-starting from someone with Power.
... When he summoned Mab her stopping to thank DR was all about the fact he could've just grabbed her and had made the distinction not to on his own ...
I read that thanks very differently.
I think she was thanking DR for not simply curbstomping Maeve.
... Any sufficient mortal can summon with a circle?
I think it depends on the being, and on the summoning-ritual.
For example, I don't think any of the porn-stars had any personal magical mojo in Blood Rites... they just had HWWBehind's summoning-ritual. On the other hand, Harry's summoning of the Erlking in Dead Beat did need some magical power.
None of that speaks to whether the little wardens, or other members of the White Council, can use Demonreach to imprison supernatural BigBads: they clearly have plenty of mojo for summonings and to empower circles! ;)
I just don't think the island will open its prison (even inbound) without The Warden's say-so; just as it didn't open in Cold Days, despite the Ladies empowering the Circle, or Mab being summoned.
... (especially when it's from the perspective of a known liar like a Fallen's spirit)
This is an excellent point.
I have my own WAG: that the manifestation of Lasciel's Shadow (with whom Harry conversed, nick-named Lash, and who eventually (if briefly) became Harry's friend & ally) wasn't the "real" Shadow. That Lasciel's Shadow survived Lash's destruction, and has been (more or less silently) observing from the depths of Harry's mind, ever since.
-
... But it's still gonna have to be the White Council, probably from necessity.
I very-strongly suspect that *somebody* (maybe several somebodies) will be taking down the White Council.
Here's the thing -- the Spookyside is just chock-full of predators. Some of them are carrying grudges. The odds are overwhelming that one or more Senior Council members are going to fall, soon. It may be an opportunistic backstab. It may be an "accident" in battle. It may just be letting someone get overmatched in battle against a foe. There are *lots* of ways for it to happen.
But when that begins... opportunistic predators will begin taking others; and taking out some lower-levels, too. And when it looks like the Senior Council cannot protect the rest of the WC... well.
Once that tree begins to fall, the predators who began that process more-or-less *have* to finish it. They have to take out the entire Senior Council, and most of the wardens: they cannot risk letting those particular enemies prepare a revenge-strike!
...
And the Paranet, frankly, is posed to replace it.
-
Cite, please.
If "the island itself" powered the circle, why isn't it always-on? The island's always pumping power, after all! I don't argue that some of the power came from the island and/or the extra enchantments as originally laid-down with the circle... but.
do I really have to cite the in book description? The energy and power that actually formed the circle came from the island. It being part of the island is by and large why Harry could walk through it and why the covered in mud crew could as well. Harry explained this.
I mean... there's something about a Circle that's inherently potent. Zero-magic Butters was able to power-up a zombie-proof circle and defy the same horde that took down Harry's own wards on his apartment.
yes, that's what circles do. Though thinking about it zombies have no Will, even less so than say binders goons. They're remote controlled vessels empowered and controlled by two different mechanics. 🤔 Considering now if the action of summoning actually causes the pitting of wills. Because didn't Dresden try to escape the toad Demon by simply getting in his circle til dawn? That'd show an inherent mechanism between the summoner and the summoned that isn't necessarily part of the circle. After all, when summoned they can either escape of their own violation giving them some agency in the world, taken from the summoner?(usually fatal to summoner) or the summoner submits them and unleashes them. What Harry was doing he described as a grey line,(iirc around Chauncey especially in book) because he summoned them but didn't let them go or submit them. Just bargained and banished. Gathering info from the ether kinda thing I suppose.
But we know from Fool Moon that Kim (while not White-Council level) had non-trivial magic of her own, but not enough to power-up enough of a Circle to hold a Loup-Garou. We know Harry took some pains to restrain the Erlking, and still barely had enough mojo to do the job.
I must make a distinction, it was not powering the circle, it was holding ones will into keeping the circle. Same as when Chauncey tried to break Harry's circle. He pitted his will against Harry's who formed and held the circle. Zombies, who have no Will in the DF version, don't seem to be very effective against circles in particular for that.
The loup was special of course, in that a traditional circle didn't work. Considering the second circle is for physical force and the third never fully explained beyond "creature with both", the second at least would involve active magic to hold up
A drain not only on magic but another thing to have to keep focused. Kim was clearly over her head. Though, how his circle functioned also wasn't explained even more so. Because sans Kim or another holding him, how'd it even hold him at all unless it had a feedback loop built-in? I mostly consider the introduction of the greater circle here to show beings can have both sides together giving them free will agency, to scale what kind of beings may have that ability, and to point at the loup as one of them.
I think ancillary enchantments helped inform the nature of the circle (and the loophole of covering themselves with mud), but the circle itself needed some jump-starting from someone with Power.
no more power than butters.I read that thanks very differently.
I think she was thanking DR for not simply curbstomping Maeve.
she literally stops and asks Dresden's permission to enter before turning to DR thanking him for not reacting different. Citing DR making an actual choice to not react different. I'm have a hard time connecting that to Maeve(nor has anyone who's talking about this before, because I am not the first) could you perhaps show your work? Thee whole scene is set up precisely to show this kinda stuff. Jim's never just showing or explaining one thing, usually 3.
I think it depends on the being, and on the summoning-ritual.
For example, I don't think any of the porn-stars had any personal magical mojo in Blood Rites... they just had HWWBehind's summoning-ritual. On the other hand, Harry's summoning of the Erlking in Dead Beat did need some magical power.
well that WAS ritual magic. Though I was thinking Madge did have some small ability (didn't one of them attack Dresden with magic?🤔 Albeit weak magic) they didn't need it for the cosmic slot machine. Which I'd describe as the machine already set up to accept "quarters", so anyone with the right currency can use it. That's entirely different from an active summoning and already explained in book how.
None of that speaks to whether the little wardens, or other members of the White Council, can use Demonreach to imprison supernatural BigBads: they clearly have plenty of mojo for summonings and to empower circles! ;)
I just don't think the island will open its prison (even inbound) without The Warden's say-so; just as it didn't open in Cold Days, despite the Ladies empowering the Circle, or Mab being summoned.
This is an excellent point.
I have my own WAG: that the manifestation of Lasciel's Shadow (with whom Harry conversed, nick-named Lash, and who eventually (if briefly) became Harry's friend & ally) wasn't the "real" Shadow. That Lasciel's Shadow survived Lash's destruction, and has been (more or less silently) observing from the depths of Harry's mind, ever since.
really? What'd you base that one on? Cause things living in Harry's head still is definitely on my interest list lol.