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The Dresden Files => DF Spoilers => Topic started by: Yuillegan on April 08, 2018, 01:34:57 AM
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Mr Sunshine has wiped out universes before.
I know in regards to Jim saying (controversially) trust nothing he says, which is sound advice, he is also winding us up a bit. He loves playing games. And yes he spreads some misinformation, but we will work that out over time.
This however is "new" info, off the cuff. Psychologically speaking, it probably is true.
See attachment for evidence.
I am going to post more WOJ as I find it, but I think in general there is a lot to be found.
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That's not too surprising. If an alternate timeline is a parallel universe, and it falls to the Outsiders, who could possibly traverse timelines like others apparently can, then one successful invasion would jeopardize all universes. We don't know how many splinterverses there are, but even if there's only a handful, sacrificing one for the rest is a (distasteful but) acceptable loss. Like gangrenous limbs removed to save the rest of the body.
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LOL Well I guess any debate about TWG's power, or Archangel's power being comparable to the Mothers just went away.
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Yes it fits in well with his job description - and you are right about the utilitarian approach. Even though they believe EVERY SINGLE SOUL/EVERY SINGLE CHOICE IS IMPORTANT, some realities have to be pruned.
But I wonder how Dresden would fell about uncountable lives being extinguished. He doesn't see eye to eye with Heaven on a lot of things.
I find myself wondering what the other Archangels, and other angels do as well.
If Lucifer spends the majority of his time lying and compromising choice and Free Will - which all angels have to SOME degree - but not the same as mortals, what does Michael do?
Because it seems like Uriel does most of the counter moves. And Raphael, from a reader perspective is the most mysterious. The Healer doesn't seem to be very active at all. Gabriel used to be very in contact with humanity, what happened? What do all the other angels, apart from Cherubs and Angels of Deaths do? Guards, messengers, warriors are the norm. And Fallen must have a bit to do as well.
Have the other Archangels destroyed realities? This fits in with the line from Uriel "I was fighting wars before your planet existed" (to paraphrase). I love getting into the broad cosmology of things.
And tbh I never really agreed with The Mothers being at the same level as Archangels. I think that has been retconned. However, perhaps not because as Jim says - the beings do NOT change, only our understanding of who and what they are. And maybe the Archangels and the Mothers represent something beyond our myths, something Jim has created for the purposes of his narrative.
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LOL Well I guess any debate about TWG's power, or Archangel's power being comparable to the Mothers just went away.
They're equal in their way. If an assassin wants to kill someone, they kill them. If a rich person wants to kill someone, they get the assassin to do it. The victim is dead either way.
Likewise, if the Mothers wanted to destroy the universe, they could (theoretically) let the Outsiders in. Then either the Outsiders or Management would destroy the universe. Even if the Mothers aren't pulling the trigger, the universe is dead either way.
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They're equal in their way. If an assassin wants to kill someone, they kill them. If a rich person wants to kill someone, they get the assassin to do it. The victim is dead either way.
Likewise, if the Mothers wanted to destroy the universe, they could (theoretically) let the Outsiders in. Then either the Outsiders or Management would destroy the universe. Even if the Mothers aren't pulling the trigger, the universe is dead either way.
Mantles bind you. The Mothers might not be able to let the Outsiders in anymore than Mab can tell a lie. Also WoJ (i know, grain of salt) said the Outsiders were locked out by God, and they are only allowed it because God gave mortals the ability to decide what they do with their sand box. So yeah it sounds like TWG, could stop the Outsiders if He so chooses.
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Yes it fits in well with his job description - and you are right about the utilitarian approach. Even though they believe EVERY SINGLE SOUL/EVERY SINGLE CHOICE IS IMPORTANT, some realities have to be pruned.
But I wonder how Dresden would fell about uncountable lives being extinguished. He doesn't see eye to eye with Heaven on a lot of things.
I find myself wondering what the other Archangels, and other angels do as well.
If Lucifer spends the majority of his time lying and compromising choice and Free Will - which all angels have to SOME degree - but not the same as mortals, what does Michael do?
Because it seems like Uriel does most of the counter moves. And Raphael, from a reader perspective is the most mysterious. The Healer doesn't seem to be very active at all. Gabriel used to be very in contact with humanity, what happened? What do all the other angels, apart from Cherubs and Angels of Deaths do? Guards, messengers, warriors are the norm. And Fallen must have a bit to do as well.
Have the other Archangels destroyed realities? This fits in with the line from Uriel "I was fighting wars before your planet existed" (to paraphrase). I love getting into the broad cosmology of things.
And tbh I never really agreed with The Mothers being at the same level as Archangels. I think that has been retconned. However, perhaps not because as Jim says - the beings do NOT change, only our understanding of who and what they are. And maybe the Archangels and the Mothers represent something beyond our myths, something Jim has created for the purposes of his narrative.
Just because Uri was named as a universe destroyer doesn't mean the others haven't either.
There's numerous theories about the others, though.
1) The Arches could transcend realities (one consciousness for all, rather than one in each) and therefore have to split (non-linear) time between them. Harry's universe could be largely overseen by Uriel, while the others are overseeing mirrorverses, but they pop into Harry's when needed.
2) There's a theory that each SotC is backed/sponsored by an Arch. My guess would be Uri/Fidel, Mich/Esper, and Gabe/Amor, but it doesn't matter too much. That leaves Raph (don't get me started on what he's doing) and Luci without sponsorships.
3) Based on Mab's comments in Small Favor, we can guess at what the others are up to, in parallel ways to how Uriel works. He recruits agents and spies (ironic that he's the Light, but he works in the shadows?). Michael would recruit warriors to ride into battle (he's recruited at least one, in Sanya). Gabriel would probably back the church, singing the praise of TWG and spreading the word (he's the Strength, the church is the Rock.. parallels?). Raphael would handle... Let's just say "incarceration" for now. ;)
As for Harry's thoughts... I imagine he'd take the politic route for once. But him finding out about that kind of thing, and throwing Uri's criticism of "roasting marshmallows" in his face, might be interesting.
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Mantles bind you. The Mothers might not be able to let the Outsiders in anymore than Mab can tell a lie. Also WoJ (i know, grain of salt) said the Outsiders were locked out by God, and they are only allowed it because God gave mortals the ability to decide what they do with their sand box. So yeah it sounds like TWG, could stop the Outsiders if He so chooses.
Hence the "theoretically" qualifier.
But mantles aren't the only thing that bind beings. A Divine Word/Promise is likely more binding than mantles. For TWG to take a hand in keeping the Outsiders out, to the degree that He's revoking free will in any way, could be going back on His Word, and possibly losing the argument with Luci.
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Mother Winter has a little cloth for that.
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3) Based on Mab's comments in Small Favor, we can guess at what the others are up to, in parallel ways to how Uriel works. He recruits agents and spies (ironic that he's the Light, but he works in the shadows?). Michael would recruit warriors to ride into battle (he's recruited at least one, in Sanya). Gabriel would probably back the church, singing the praise of TWG and spreading the word (he's the Strength, the church is the Rock.. parallels?). Raphael would handle... Let's just say "incarceration" for now. ;)
I imagine one of them would be in charge of a big job we don't see much of: keeping watch of the gates of Hell. I can't imagine Lucy is staying there just because he likes it (and indeed, he cheated to get out), but he still mostly stays put. Seems a nice job for Raphael or Michael.
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I imagine one of them would be in charge of a big job we don't see much of: keeping watch of the gates of Hell. I can't imagine Lucy is staying there just because he likes it (and indeed, he cheated to get out), but he still mostly stays put. Seems a nice job for Raphael or Michael.
Seems more like the domain of Raph. A warrior and his host aren't necessarily ideal for prison warden and guards. Whereas the Arch tasked with, you know, imprisoning Azazel in an earthly tomb, would be a better fit. (There, that's as close as I'll get to saying it here)
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They're equal in their way. If an assassin wants to kill someone, they kill them. If a rich person wants to kill someone, they get the assassin to do it. The victim is dead either way.
Likewise, if the Mothers wanted to destroy the universe, they could (theoretically) let the Outsiders in. Then either the Outsiders or Management would destroy the universe. Even if the Mothers aren't pulling the trigger, the universe is dead either way.
The fact that I can drive a car down the road with several hundred pounds of stuff at 60 miles per hour does not mean that I can carry several hundred pounds of stuff down the road at 60 miles per hour. Having the ability to let someone else do a thing does not mean you yourself have the ability to do that thing.
Also, what's with the sudden screenshotting of WoJ? Can we not provide links to the original source? Because I can fake a screenshot of WoJ that says whatever I want with no problem whatsoever.
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Also, what's with the sudden screenshotting of WoJ? Can we not provide links to the original source? Because I can fake a screenshot of WoJ that says whatever I want with no problem whatsoever.
They might be from a private facebook group that non-members can't see even with the link.
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That's not too surprising. If an alternate timeline is a parallel universe, and it falls to the Outsiders, who could possibly traverse timelines like others apparently can, then one successful invasion would jeopardize all universes. We don't know how many splinterverses there are, but even if there's only a handful, sacrificing one for the rest is a (distasteful but) acceptable loss. Like gangrenous limbs removed to save the rest of the body.
Besides which, having your universe destroyed his way is probably a mercy kill compared to actually experiencing an Outsider invasion first-hand.
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Yeah, I don't know the particulars about the sources for the Wii, but they seem consistent with what I'd imagine is the case. They seem plausible.
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I don't think DF God qualifies as TWG anymore or does he. I'm thinking we should just consider df God as separate from much expectation we have about what God should be like. The differences between df God and God is mounting.
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The fact that I can drive a car down the road with several hundred pounds of stuff at 60 miles per hour does not mean that I can carry several hundred pounds of stuff down the road at 60 miles per hour. Having the ability to let someone else do a thing does not mean you yourself have the ability to do that thing.
Doesn't it, though? If we said power only lies with the person that does something, then the PotUS is no more powerful than anyone else. He/She would be weaker than many. The fact that they can destroy the world doesn't count, because the themselves aren't doing it.
Besides which, having your universe destroyed his way is probably a mercy kill compared to actually experiencing an Outsider invasion first-hand.
Definitely. I'm sure they could do a Rapture-level event across the globe in a non-linear second, coordinating with other pantheons if needed.
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I wonder if the series is kinda what it looks like right before an archangel blows up a universe. I mean we are seeing many archangels getting personally involved. I think they believe there are pivotal moments upcoming and this is there play to limit the need to destroy this universe.
It makes me wonder if Uriels gambit in skin game with turning over his grace to Michael in an attempt to save a soul plus extra may have been part of this plan to save the universe. Uriel put himself on the line with extending his grace to Michael.
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I wonder if the series is kinda what it looks like right before an archangel blows up a universe. I mean we are seeing many archangels getting personally involved. I think they believe there are pivotal moments upcoming and this is there play to limit the need to destroy this universe.
It makes me wonder if Uriels gambit in skin game with turning over his grace to Michael in an attempt to save a soul plus extra may have been part of this plan to save the universe. Uriel put himself on the line with extending his grace to Michael.
I'm sure he did use his Intellectus to limit the risk - I imagine he knew to ask the questions "Will Michael C make me Fall?" and "Will this help?".
Which is a bit weird to consider - what role did Uriel's Intellectus play?
But indeed, I think the BAT will be one of those (apocalyptic) situations deciding if the world gets recycled or keeps on spinning.
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Doesn't it, though? If we said power only lies with the person that does something, then the PotUS is no more powerful than anyone else. He/She would be weaker than many. The fact that they can destroy the world doesn't count, because the themselves aren't doing it.
Which has more power. The president ordering a nuclear strike, or someone who can manipulate the laws of physics with their mind to cause a nuclear explosion? The one who can manipulate the laws of physics with their mind can do much much more vs someone using a nuke.
They aren't the same. The Mothers "allowing" the Outsiders to come in vs TWG creating the rules in which it is possible for them to come in is much different. The power to destroy a universe with your own power vs destroying the universe by allowing creatures capable of destroying it in are completely different levels of power.
It means one level of power is much more limited, and contained vs one that can do much more. One follows the rules, and one creates them.
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Which has more power. The president ordering a nuclear strike, or someone who can manipulate the laws of physics with their mind to cause a nuclear explosion? The one who can manipulate the laws of physics with their mind can do much much more vs someone using a nuke.
They aren't the same. The Mothers "allowing" the Outsiders to come in vs TWG creating the rules in which it is possible for them to come in is much different. The power to destroy a universe with your own power vs destroying the universe by allowing creatures capable of destroying it in are completely different levels of power.
It means one level of power is much more limited, and contained vs one that can do much more. One follows the rules, and one creates them.
I'd say there's an argument that someone with thousands of nukes that could be simultaneously fired is more dangerous than someone that can magically induce one, and who likely couldn't do that numerous times in quick succession.
But I get what you're saying. It's a question of raw ability versus leverage. Arches have the raw ability to destroy universes. The Mothers don't. But they do have the leverage to get it done. Both are power of one sort or another. They're not the same, but the result is.
All this is assuming that one or the other is free enough to do their part in the scenario.
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I'd say there's an argument that someone with thousands of nukes that could be simultaneously fired is more dangerous than someone that can magically induce one, and who likely couldn't do that numerous times in quick succession.
But I get what you're saying. It's a question of raw ability versus leverage. Arches have the raw ability to destroy universes. The Mothers don't. But they do have the leverage to get it done. Both are power of one sort or another. They're not the same, but the result is.
All this is assuming that one or the other is free enough to do their part in the scenario.
Yeah, it's a tight rope Jim has to be careful with. Kinda like "Well if Mother Winter could do all this what point is there for Harry Dresden to save the day?"
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But I get what you're saying. It's a question of raw ability versus leverage. Arches have the raw ability to destroy universes. The Mothers don't. But they do have the leverage to get it done. Both are power of one sort or another. They're not the same, but the result is.
I think when Lea said in SK that the Queens and Mothers had power to rival the archangels, she simply doesn't have much of an idea how powerful archangels actually are. Which is an understandable mistake to make since how much of their power they can actually use is very limited in normal circumstances, and she simply hasn't been privy to any of the "aw shucks, time to wrap up this universe" circumstances.
Plus, she had the athame at that point. She could have just been lying, although I don't even see a reason doing so there would benefit Nemesis.
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They're equal in their way. If an assassin wants to kill someone, they kill them. If a rich person wants to kill someone, they get the assassin to do it. The victim is dead either way.
Likewise, if the Mothers wanted to destroy the universe, they could (theoretically) let the Outsiders in. Then either the Outsiders or Management would destroy the universe. Even if the Mothers aren't pulling the trigger, the universe is dead either way.
By themselves, I doubt the Mothers could let the Outsiders in. I suspect that that would require mortal free will on some level.
In some ways, the Mothers are a little like the robots in Isaac Asimov's stories, I think. The Laws of the Sidhe aren't something they choose to obey, it's something they MUST obey, like the the Three Laws of Robotics for robots in Asimov's stories.
Which isn't to say, like some of Asimov's robots, that they can't find sneaky ways around some of the requirements, ditto Mab and Titania.
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Michael played with the Grace.. oops!
(https://68.media.tumblr.com/37fca6792310b915fa27730053d2aa07/tumblr_nqgofxwHhn1r90377o1_500.gif)
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Also, what's with the sudden screenshotting of WoJ? Can we not provide links to the original source? Because I can fake a screenshot of WoJ that says whatever I want with no problem whatsoever.
Just to be clear, the quote is legit. It comes from a private fan facebook group that a link would not allow you to see posts. It also has Jim Butcher's personal FB account included in the group. He occasionally joins the conversation, but AFAIK he self-manages his own account. He is only a mildly famous niche author after all, and is actually quite down to earth. There are many people who are fans AND friends with the guy himself.
Also, I suppose I or someone else could photoshop a quote. But to what end? The point is to discuss interesting parts of the Dresdenverse and WOJ helps build that. I could have just kept it to myself. I don't need to legitimise it to myself, the quote is for all of YOU.
Finally, I would like to point out Jim's style of prose. It is quite distinct, and if you follow his various works and quotes you will notice he has little idiosyncrasies and idioms that appear in the way he writes, especially off the cuff. I won't get into all of them (do your own homework) but as an example, he loves chucking in "\" around words requiring emphasis. That is quite an old school thing to do, and you see it more with older types. Just a little FYI.
Not that your question annoys me, I am glad peregrine that you choose to critically evaluate information. We all know the internet could use more of that! :)
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Michael played with the Grace.. oops!
(https://68.media.tumblr.com/37fca6792310b915fa27730053d2aa07/tumblr_nqgofxwHhn1r90377o1_500.gif)
Previously, I wondered if we might eventually see Harry wind up getting a Grace loan from the Watchman. This has now convinced me that will never happen, considering just how much a menace to real estate non-Grace powered Harry is.
"The Universe was on fire, and it wasn't my fault. Okay, maybe a little."
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Previously, I wondered if we might eventually see Harry wind up getting a Grace loan from the Watchman. This has now convinced me that will never happen, considering just how much a menace to real estate non-Grace powered Harry is.
"The Universe was on fire, and it wasn't my fault. Okay, maybe a little."
Also, from a meta POV, it would make Harry too powerful, I think. The storyline hinges on the fact that Harry is not the most powerful being in his personal world.
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Yes it fits in well with his job description - and you are right about the utilitarian approach. Even though they believe EVERY SINGLE SOUL/EVERY SINGLE CHOICE IS IMPORTANT, some realities have to be pruned.
But I wonder how Dresden would fell about uncountable lives being extinguished. He doesn't see eye to eye with Heaven on a lot of things.
I find myself wondering what the other Archangels, and other angels do as well.
If Lucifer spends the majority of his time lying and compromising choice and Free Will - which all angels have to SOME degree - but not the same as mortals, what does Michael do?
Because it seems like Uriel does most of the counter moves. And Raphael, from a reader perspective is the most mysterious. The Healer doesn't seem to be very active at all. Gabriel used to be very in contact with humanity, what happened? What do all the other angels, apart from Cherubs and Angels of Deaths do? Guards, messengers, warriors are the norm. And Fallen must have a bit to do as well.
Have the other Archangels destroyed realities? This fits in with the line from Uriel "I was fighting wars before your planet existed" (to paraphrase). I love getting into the broad cosmology of things.
And tbh I never really agreed with The Mothers being at the same level as Archangels. I think that has been retconned. However, perhaps not because as Jim says - the beings do NOT change, only our understanding of who and what they are. And maybe the Archangels and the Mothers represent something beyond our myths, something Jim has created for the purposes of his narrative.
Dresden won't mind countless lives being destroyed, as long as he did not happened in front of him and as long as he don't have the power to do anything about it. If Harry don't have such a mindset, he'll go insane. There is enough injustice just in Harry's own planet, heck just in Harry's own town of Chicago, let alone in the entire universe and all the multiverse. Maybe, just maybe, Book 1 Harry might childishly complain about such an abstract concept, but book 15 Harry knows better.
As for Uriel and Heaven, I do not think the concept of "free will" is a law applicable to all worlds in all the multiverse. I think there is a WoJ somewhere that mentioned about a reality where powers like Jedi mind trick is applicable?
There you have it. If such reality does exist, it shows that in some realities "free will" is not so strictly enforce as in the reality that is the Dresdenverse. In such realities, Archangels like Uriel might be allowed to take more hardline measures, because in such realities, Uriel is not bound by the laws of "free will".
It can be said that the current dresdenverse is a reality where the forces of light has secured propperly, and therefore the free will of mortals in this particular reality is better protected. Other universes however, may not be under the same circumstances.
Of course, if you are someone who wish to defy the heaven and desire to attain supreme cosmic powers, someone like Nicodemous for example, living in a reality like the dresdenverse is frustrating. You can't cultivate into an immortal like in Xianxia novels, not in this reality. Heck, even taking up a mantle of power is so difficult and full of restrictions and limitations. In short, the path to greater power is cut off in the dresdenverse. Like Michael pronounced in book 15: "There is a judge out there.:, which means the dresdenverse is already under someone's rule. The universe already has a Master, or at least a strong establish order.
Which explains why Uriel makes most of Heaven's moves in this reality. Because this is sort of "National defense" and Uriel is kind of the FBI, NSA and CIA combine. In the dresdenverse, Uriel is countering domestic crimes and terrorism. In other realities, where Heaven is trying to take control, maybe Michael is mostly in charge. because Michael is the general of the Army. while in realities where Heaven is trying to restore order after conquest, , maybe Raphael will be the main Archangel in charge.
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In raw power, yeah, Mr Sunshine could wipe out the universe or a universe, but only on orders from the Boss.. It isn't something he can chose to do on his own...
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In raw power, yeah, Mr Sunshine could wipe out the universe or a universe, but only on orders from the Boss.. It isn't something he can chose to do on his own...
Can't he? He'd fall, but I think he can. I think that's why Jim said Lucy wasn't out to destroy reality, and it was more of an argument about being right.
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Can't he? He'd fall, but I think he can. I think that's why Jim said Lucy wasn't out to destroy reality, and it was more of an argument about being right.
Didn't say he couldn't, but he won't cross the Boss... He doesn't want to fall..
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Who says he can only do it on orders from God though? He's done plenty of other stuff on his own authority (as near as we can tell) so why not that as well?
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The WOJ suggested that he gets Orders for that type of thing. But, whether he does it by himself or due to Orders as long as he is an Archangel I'm sure he is in tune with God.
"Archangels get sent somewhere to get a job done."
I took the 'get sent' as the Archangel having been given Orders. This is in the same paragraph as Uriel is said to have "wiped out Universes before."
Actually given the WOJ about Lucifer really not being a threat to the Universe, or much of a threat relative to the Big Bad's, I'm thinking Lucifer doesn't have the power to wipe out the Universe. This means that only God aligned Archangels have this ability. I would bet though, if God gave Lucifer an Order to wipe out a Universe he could do it. Anyways, I believe an Archangel needs God's permission to act in destroying a Universe. It is very likely similar to a Winter Knight power. If Harry tries to cross Winter Law, the mantle leaves him; similarly, if an Archangel tries to destroy a Universe without God permission, his Grace would leave him thereby preventing the use of that power. So, I could see in an instance in which he doesn't exactly fall but is temporarily left Graceless.
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I imagine that it is similar to how Winter/Summer mantles work. He by being a 'God Aligned' Archangel is in tap with TWG will, wishes, rules, and laws. It doesn't have to be a meeting of the AA's and God for a decision to be reached about these things.
Also... AA meeting,
Hi my name is Uriel and I have an outsider problem.
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Hi my name is Uriel and I have an outsider problem.
Hi, Uriel.
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If Lucifer destroys the universe, then he can't win his argument with God. So he's got plenty of reasons not to do so, even if he could do it.
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I think there is a difference between universe and Universe.
Mr. Sunshine has wiped out universes. He hasn't wiped out the Universe (multiverse).
I think Lucifer could in theory be given the power by God to wipe out a universe and it not endanger his argument as the multiverse continues.
(I favor that wiping out a universe must be a God aligned/ordered event and such an event doesn't wipe out the Multiverse or whateverVerse that God and Lucifer is having an argument in.)