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The Dresden Files => DF Spoilers => Topic started by: KurtinStGeorge on July 20, 2020, 11:39:41 PM
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I think this subject needs to be fully aired out, rather than having it pop up piecemeal in a number of different conversations. I don't think we need to go into the story being split in two. I believe there's another thread that already deals with that issue. Go ahead and mention it if ties into some larger point you want to make.
Also, you don't have to limit yourself to these three questions. For example, you could tell us about something good (or not) that you didn't expect. Finally, you might want to; not guess how Battle Ground will play out, but tells us what you think it should do. And I don't mean in terms of its story and which characters live or die; like I want to see Thomas survive and become a KotC, I mean in how the story should go from here in order to finish in a (hopefully) satisfying way, or how it might tie up loose ends or salvage any weaknesses you found in Peace Talks. I'll post my ideas later. Dinner; I mean duty, calls
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The Audio Book is odd, I think Marsters was away too long. Mab's voice is off among other things.
Too many characters and not enough from them.
There are other things but I'll reserve those.
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If I'm being completely honest..... Peace Talks is the new contender for my least favorite book of the series thus far.
It did not seem to flow as well as most of the others. There was something a bit off about the whole plot progression. It was difficult to tell where the story was going, but not in a good way. Things seemed to be needlessly complicated at times, or just not really add up, but again not in a good way.
Example, why would they capture Thomas, but then beat him to death, which is essentially what they did. With so many questions surrounding why Thomas did what he did, why did they not try to question him? Or at least leave him with the ability to answer questions in the future.
It was one of those times in a plot where I got the impression "I bet if they could just talk to him right now half this story would be over".
Then enter the Titan. This has me more confused than anything. If the plan was "war on mortals" why now? If Titan lady is so powerful why have her Fomar pets been in hiding until a few years ago, and then why start abducting people for a few years before flipping the table and sitting in Mabs eye? It is hard to make sense of it, and the book doesn't spend ny time trying to.
I'm hopeful that Battle Grounds pulls everything together, but honestly if you old me this book was written by a different author I'd have believed it.
Last bit.... did the whole "gathering of the accorded folks" thing seem a bit off in scale to anyone else? I thought there were sorta a lot of groups and things signed on to those. What about the Black Court? The Erlking? I feel like the books have mentioned plenty of groups and things that were on the accords throughout the series, and those ar just what have come up as of hand mentions during Drsdens shenanigans. I always had the impression the the accords signature page looked but like the UN charter. I had assumed all these years the 'Peace Talks' were going to use a venue like saw when nose of the White Council showed up to Chicago way back when, Not a 3 story boarding house sized stone building. Did these rest of the accords not RSVP? Or was the full meeting going to be taking place elsewhere and I missed it?
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I expected more members at the talks.
I enjoyed a lot of the emotional beats of the story.
I liked the non action based tension. I'm not used to it in a DF book.
I liked how Dresden was boss on the Island. He basically didn't even have to try.
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I liked seeing Harry and his friends again. Several scenes landed beautifully -- particularly Maggie.
I didn't like ending the book with most of the threads still up in the air. I'd expected some of that, but it was even worse. Thankfully, this is a temporary objection. In future, I'll be able to read Peace Talks and Battle Ground as two parts of a single novel, without the dangling threads. (I hope.)
Biggest unmet expectation -- I'd been imagining the Peace Talks as a big Unseelie Accord event, where in fact it was really a Chicago event. It was Marcone inviting all of the supernatural players in the Chicago area to discuss the fomor, rather than a world-wide anything. As a result, the talks felt a bit small -- we didn't get a glimpse of a bigger world of major nations we've never even heard of, or know almost nothing about.
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1. Accorded attendees seemed really low count. Why no black court, shapeshifter, or organizations from other countries? I mean, you really mean that we know all the accord signers already? There are no other signers from Asian folklore? Odin is there, are there no other gods/pantheons with people active enough to be signers? I thought this was going to be a chance to show the league Harry was moving up into by showing us the next tier of players, but no Drakul, really just about nobody new.
2. Book was waaaayyyy to wordy. I think a good 25% of the book was summarizing what had happened in the previous 15 books, short stories, or graphic novels. Telling readers what they already knew if they have read the entire series. It really made especially the first half of the book a slog. I found myself skipping whole pages on the first read through as he dropped the same summaries of people we know or things that have happened before into this book that he dropped into previous books (or at least it sure felt that way). By the BAT Jim is going to have to decide if he is writing for readers of the series or not, because if he continues to write each book so it can be read by a new reader, its going to be 75% summaries of previous books and only 25% new text, and I'm not sure I can take that.
3. Murphy drove Thomas and Lara to the boat after meeting them outside. That put very strong moral restrictions on activities for no reason Lara would accept. Why wouldn't Lara have arranged her people to pick up Thomas and take him to the boat in a limo - a limo with 3-4 women in the back for Thomas to feed upon immediately? She knew he was being treated badly while being held, she could assume he would need to feed.
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3. Murphy drove Thomas and Lara to the boat after meeting them outside. That put very strong moral restrictions on activities for no reason Lara would accept. Why wouldn't Lara have arranged her people to pick up Thomas and take him to the boat in a limo - a limo with 3-4 women in the back for Thomas to feed upon immediately? She knew he was being treated badly while being held, she could assume he would need to feed.
What car did she drive? She couldn't drive the M.M. because her feet can't reach the pedals, so you'd think Lara would arrange the transport.
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I think the peace talks should've had talks.
Day 1: What we saw
Day 2: talks in the background, Harry's heist
Day 3: talks, and recriminations about where Thomas went, then poof, Titan
It feels to me like day 2 and 3 were squished together to reduce the booklength, but then it was no longer necessary when the book was split anyway.
Also I would echo the 'why were the Fomor ever hiding'. Do they really only have a titan, king, and a handful of mooks? That could explain it, Winter/Faerie didn't win by killing their tough guys, but just by reducing their footsoldiers so much that the only actions open to the Fomor were slugging matches. The last years have rebuilt at least low-level mooks, and now with Winter occupied by Fomor-allied Outsiders they see a chance... but they can't have enough mooks to really beat Chicago (right?)
However, I did very much like Harry not being a noob with the island, but really using its potential. Sad for Thomas, and I liked Lara's analysis of what he just did.
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I think the peace talks should've had talks.
I totally agree, then we would have understood who were for the Fomor joining the Accords and who were against and at least a vague reason why.
I agree that at times it seemed way too wordy.
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I liked seeing Harry and his friends again. Several scenes landed beautifully -- particularly Maggie.
I didn't like ending the book with most of the threads still up in the air. I'd expected some of that, but it was even worse. Thankfully, this is a temporary objection. In future, I'll be able to read Peace Talks and Battle Ground as two parts of a single novel, without the dangling threads. (I hope.)
Biggest unmet expectation -- I'd been imagining the Peace Talks as a big Unseelie Accord event, where in fact it was really a Chicago event. It was Marcone inviting all of the supernatural players in the Chicago area to discuss the fomor, rather than a world-wide anything. As a result, the talks felt a bit small -- we didn't get a glimpse of a bigger world of major nations we've never even heard of, or know almost nothing about.
All of this.
3. Murphy drove Thomas and Lara to the boat after meeting them outside. That put very strong moral restrictions on activities for no reason Lara would accept. Why wouldn't Lara have arranged her people to pick up Thomas and take him to the boat in a limo - a limo with 3-4 women in the back for Thomas to feed upon immediately? She knew he was being treated badly while being held, she could assume he would need to feed.
Didn't Lara say it wouldn't be enough for Thomas to drain someone entirely?
Day 3: talks, and recriminations about where Thomas went, then poof, Titan
I think that could have been a much more satisfying book, but I'll wait until I've read PT and BG a few times to decide.
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I was disappointed. I’m hoping I can chalk this up to Jim’s long break and as he gets back into his groove the writing will improve. I expect Battle Ground will be about the same quality given they were originally one book. I’m still grateful to have the books. Not every book can be amazing, especially given how many he’s written. I will read as long as he keeps writing them. I enjoy the characters and visiting them in each story Jim tells.
I liked many of the free standing scenes that didn’t seem to advance the main story. Harry’s talk with Maggie exposition on how he prepared for her care if he died. The practice fight between Sanya and Butters and the revelation that angels are likely bound to the nails of the Cross. Harry summoning Molly and their conversation.
I liked Ethniu’s entrance and the response it garnered. I liked Harry binding Thomas.
The whole titular idea of the peace talks was amazingly underwhelming, as many have said. Few participants, no actual talks. The lack of any revelation about the why behind Thomas’s assassination attempt.
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I totally agree, then we would have understood who were for the Fomor joining the Accords and who were against and at least a vague reason why.
I think the point was that the Fomor never actually intended to join the Accords anyway - the call for talks was just to get a bunch of important Accorded powers in one place with Mab so Ethniu could demonstrate Mab's inability to enforce the Accords in front of all of them.
So there was actually nothing to discuss. The Fomor just show up and start a fight with Mab.
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I think the point was that the Fomor never actually intended to join the Accords anyway - the call for talks was just to get a bunch of important Accorded powers in one place with Mab so Ethniu could demonstrate Mab's inability to enforce the Accords in front of all of them.
So there was actually nothing to discuss. The Fomor just show up and start a fight with Mab.
But that isn't the point, it isn't what about what the Fomor intended to do, but the politics surrounding the talks. Who were against them joining, who were for? Who were in favor of appeasing them for the sake of peace? Imagine Christos having a real Nevil Chamberlain moment convincing everyone that this was the way, then the Fomor show up to start a fight, oh better yet, play nice for a little bit so Mab and perhaps Marcone look like fools, Thomas is brought up, then all hell breaks loose.
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I was surprised there was no real plot angle of investigating why Thomas attacked the svartalves, or if he was framed. It's just an assumption that someone was holding a threat to Justine over him.
Seems to me there was a glaring lack of consideration whether he was mind-whammied into it, or took on the hit to buy something powerful's protection for Justine to survive the hit. I favour the mind-whammy theory, because while Justine is in danger, she's not quite two months into the pregnancy. He has time to look for less radical alternatives than assassinating a moderately friendly figure for a favour.
Plus, I'm surprised Harry wouldn't at least internally consider the possibility of an N-fected svartalf staging it to frame Thomas as part of the black council pressure campaign against Harry.
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PT is not bad, it is just not enough. We are used to eat a full meal. Each book of JB always covered all the aspect and tied all loose ends accept for those JB deliberately left hanging on purpose. Now we are only served half a plate of food with all those loose end unexplain.
Of course we feel there are too much recap of previous books. In the first place, JB has left this series hanging for 6 years instead for just 1 year like previous books, so he need a bit of a summary. Secondly this is in fact only half a book. Battleground is bound not to have so many recap, because all the recap is already done in PT. If the 2 books is combine into one, the percentage of the recap will drop a lot.
Of course we don't have answers about Thomas. Again, this is only half a book. I can also understand why the spartalf don't questioned Thomas. Firstly, it does not matter much. Like it or not, Thomas has drew blood and retribution is unavoidable. Secondly, it is a stressful time. All of the powers that be is in Chicago and Thomas's matter will not escape their eyes. Under such a premise the spartalf cannot afford to show any weakness. Fellow accord members they may be, but they are all predators just the same. Showing all the other powers the ruthless and vicious side of the spartalf is more important than anything at the moment, otherwise the spartalf as a nation will lose their prestige. This is the same reason why in book 11, the white council have to kill Donald Morgan even if they know that Morgan is mostly innocent. The sacrifice is nescesary so that other powers don't look at the council as prey. Of course the spartalf know that there is more behind the scene, but the urgency of the matter does not allow them to do anything else. Why do you think the spartalf agree to transfer Thomas to the BFF building? Don't they know that it will make it easier for Lara and Harry to rescue him? They obviously know, but they did it anyway. It is politics. The spartalf cannot show weakness, but they also don't want a war with the white court vampires either. Once Lara ask Harry to introduce her to the spartalf, the spartalf now has a ladder to step down without showing weakness. If Lara manage to make Thomas disappear without a trace, they have to focus on finding Thomas first before any war can happened. The spartalf can open one eye and close another. Big problems becomes small problems and small problems becomes no problem. Vadderung and Farofax attitude said it all. They obviously seen Harry and Lara carry Thomas out breaking who knows how many rules of hospitality and unceli accords, as old powers Vadderung and faro ought to be angry, but did they say anything?
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I will put here a variation of what I posted in another thread ALL SPOILERS!!
I just have finished reading it. I liked it a lot even when I am very sad. I don't like what is happening with Thomas, or Lara for that matters. She is one of my favorite frenemies too :)
In my opinions, the first chapters seemed...disjointed. Like different postcards placed in the same album, no links between them. I commented a few things in specific threads about each of the sample chapters but only a few more things:
In the first chapter Harry sees giant footprints...and does nothing. Tells nothing to anyone. He does not ask Bonea. He does not ask Bob (when he visited Butters).
Apparently, he and McCoy not tell anyone about an outsider attacking them
He does not ask Bob for the sneezing either. I mean, he asks Butters, but he does not ask him to ask Bob. Not even the paranet!
Lara was described twice with very few chapters in between. And we are already familiar with her, so it was boring. There are other things I found wordy as the others say, but for some reason Lara's description were the more annoying.
Ramirez placed an ink dot in Harry's waist...long before Harry was hurt and Butters do a hard cleaning of Harry's hands. How did the dot survived?
Lastly, Ramirez acted much more suspicious in the "ambush" than at the party, which was weird.
And the Peace Talks never actually began, which was disappointing. I was expecting some clever exchanges and things like that.
I did love many things, mostly all the emotion, the fact that Harry truly planned for Maggie's future, the fighting scenes, the heist, Harry in the island. I am sad for him and specially because I feel that both Lara and Thomas will be angry at him after all the Titan thing is finished (assuming they survive). And that is sad, they should be grateful. And I like that I am not sure what is going on with police and feds.
I suspect Thomas had another reason than Justine. Perhaps it was protecting Harry. Or something thralled him to do that so Harry will need to do what he did.
Also, I think Harry needs to have the three Swords together, crossing the streams, for saying something. That would probably defeat or weaken the Titan, long enough for the imprisonment.
Of course, we all suspect Merlin is the sleeping prisoner, right? And he will be with Mab?
Lastly, I've been wondering if Fidelacchius will be able to cut the demon inside Thomas (improbable) or Justine's baby (as it won't hurt the human but the monster).
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I didn't hate the book we got. A lot of the banter was still fun. I suppose I most enjoyed the scenes with Harry and Maggie. Though I wish we got to hear a little more from Bonea.
I want to address one criticism I initially agreed with, but I'm having a change of heart on, and that has to do with Butters suddenly complicated love life. The criticism is that the ménage à trois doesn't feel earned; that it's something tacked on by Jim to make Butters more studly. I initially agreed with this assessment; and it might be true, but after a reread I found that Butters wasn't really anger stronger. He tells Harry, "I don't know how this happened." Then he says "Don't screw this up for me." If Butters love life was going to be upended because Harry talked to their mutual friends about it, Butters relationship isn't that strong to begin with. I have a feeling that Jim is setting something up here. One of the Denarians is trying a different way to get to one of the knights. If I'm right then Butters situation will make more sense. However, that's a WAG I don't want to go into detail about right now.
More than one person has said something like, "A book titled Peace Talks should have some actual; you know, peace talks in them." I agree, but for a specific reason. If you recall back when you read the first three Dresden Files books, there were was a fair amount of foreshadowing about the White Council, but we didn't get to see them as an organization, how they worked and what the leadership thought of Harry, until the fourth book Summer Knight. When that happened it opened up the wider magical world for the series. I was hoping we would get something similar with this book, only this time we would witness how the different powers dealt with each other, in an official capacity. At least until all hell would break loose. Plus, I was hoping there would be some surprises. Characters like Drakul that we've only heard about, maybe the Eebs would show up representing a new Red Court; which looks less likely now, or Mavra would show up representing the Black Court.
There were also little things that felt off to me. The first night of the talks at the dinner, the Fomor didn't show up, but no one mentioned it or asked why they were absent. I would have thought Harry would have picked up on they're absence and asked the question. Yes, the next day we get an apology for the Fomor being late, but shouldn't it have come earlier?
That's a nit pick. My real issue is with Harry. At no point does he act like the detective that he used to be. I get that everything is happening pretty fast but he has time to talk with Karen. It's said the boat trip to Demonreach island takes about an hour. There was space for Harry to wonder why Mab and Lara are working on together. Is Mab just balancing scales by working with Lara because she Marcon'e main rival or was it something else? Is Vadderung backing Lara or is her hiring the Valkyrie just a business arrangement? These are just a couple of questions Harry might have mused about even if he didn't know if they were relevant to the current situation with Thomas.
I'll admit that part of my issue is that I was hoping we would get a fun and challenging mystery for Harry to unravel, mixed in with all the political machinations of the talks. However, what we have received doesn't feel fun to me, at least not yet. The plot line with Thomas just feels sad and depressing. Even breaking Thomas out of jail wasn't that fun; other than Freydis sex illusion hologram of Harry and Lara, which should make things interesting for Harry in the next book, but not so much in this one. Add to that, the battle with the Corner Hounds wasn't that good, IMO. For example, I think the fight with the Octokongs in Skin Game was much more exiting.
So far I'd give what we got a C -, but I hope the pay off in Battle Ground will be worthwhile. At least we don't have that long to wait.
Lastly, I've been wondering if Fidelacchius will be able to cut the demon inside Thomas (improbable) or Justine's baby (as it won't hurt the human but the monster).
I've been wondering if Fidelacchius will be able to cut through Nicodemus' noose, should Nic ever try to pull the same trick with Butters that he used on Murphy. I suspect the noose can't be damaged while Nic's wearing it, but if he asks for mercy and takes it off; and he puts down his coin, the noose might loose whatever protections it has.
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Of course we don't have answers about Thomas. Again, this is only half a book. I can also understand why the spartalf don't questioned Thomas. Firstly, it does not matter much. Like it or not, Thomas has drew blood and retribution is unavoidable. Secondly, it is a stressful time.
I'm not expecting an answer in part 1 of 2. I do find it odd that Harry didn't even start laying any groundwork to an investigation. He is a private detective, after all.
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Frankly, the only thing that bothers me about Butters' arrangements is the moment that Harry thinks to himself that he does not know what to think. Be an adult Harry, those three are adults and what they do in private is not your damn business (I was proud of his initial answer at Butters' place, I just did not like his inner thoughts later, when talking with Karen). But still, I understand Harry is an old fashioned guy. I just wish Murphy had not been so flustered for a woman hitting on her.
Kurtis, I loved the fight with the hound. It is one of my favorites in the whole serious. So I guess each ones has their cup of tea.
And at some point Harry is going to begin "detecting" and hopefully he will discover what happened with Thomas.
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Harry expected this of Thomas and made fun of him for it , he certainly didn’t expect it of Butters, it left him rather non-plussed and then he himself was offered a similar arrangement with Freydis and Murphy.
Somewhere if you listen very carefully, you can hear Carlos screaming “it’s not fair!!!”
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I'm not expecting an answer in part 1 of 2. I do find it odd that Harry didn't even start laying any groundwork to an investigation. He is a private detective, after all.
Because saving Thomas is more important to Harry compare to knowing who is behind it. Harry himself notice that what happened to Thomas is a distraction, which meant trying to investigate is exactly what the enemy wanted Harry to do.
Harry also has task from Mab and from the white council which occupy his time and attention in which failure could mean his death. Both rationally and emotionally, Harry's action to leave the mystery behind and focus on the rescue is a correct response in my opinion. Harry simply don't have the time and resources to investigate the matter, not even just a preliminary one. There are more important and urgent issue demanding his attention. As long as Thomas is still alive, Harry could investigate later.
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Frankly, the only thing that bothers me about Butters' arrangements is the moment that Harry thinks to himself that he does not know what to think.
I totally get not knowing what to think, especially from Harry's "traditional" perspective.
Part of it is that it's Butters, who had a slightly better sex life than Harry in WN. He didn't exactly go from zero to sixty, but Butters isn't ever described as anything approaching what one would think of as someone ending up in his situation. (His situation being a guy in a menage a trois with a bombshell and another girl who is, at least, not unattractive).
Another part has been mentioned that because Butters didn't know how it happened, there's a good chance that Butters is going to end up the odd man out. Three people in a relationship often ends up with someone believing they were betrayed.
And finally, I don't think Dresden can wrap his head around a long term romantic relationship involving three people. Marci is different than the girls Justine brings over because Marci is going to be around regardless of what's happening in Butters bedroom.
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I see no reason for Jim to include that particular moment of Harry's thoughts, still getting attention over that moment. And Butters has always being described as someone interesting for a nerd girl. The fact that the female Alphas are all bombshells does not change that. But that is not my point. I totally understand that Harry is surprised. That is perfectly fine. And clearly it is not something Harry himself would do. Of course. But "not knowing what to think"? Well, think that is not your business, Harry! What else is "to think"?
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And Butters has always being described as someone interesting for a nerd girl.
I have to admit that I'm often flummoxed by some things women find attractive, but I imagine Dresden and most men are too. We typically do not expect short, skinny, older, professionally limited, polka enthusiasts to end up in the situation Harry finds Butters in.
The fact that the female Alphas are all bombshells does not change that.
Not accusing you of it, but this sort of observation, turned to a criticism, is my biggest pet peeve criticism of Dresden Files. So many people complain vigorously about how every woman in the Dresden Files is sooo hot and beautiful. They're not. Out of the Alphas, only Andy is described as clearly a bombshell.* The others are described as physically fit, which is just one aspect of what many define as hot or beautiful. "Butterface" isn't considered a compliment. I kind of get the impression that Georgia's not good looking. The adjective I remember most when it comes to Marci is "mousy." Most women, excluding the supernaturally attractive ones, are described as having an attractive feature or two. Very few are described as outright ugly. Probably just Meryl, and female BCV's if you want to include them as women. Most female characters are described with at least some terms that I doubt a woman would appreciate hearing about herself. I don't think any of the old lady's are described as what most would describe as attractive. (Older wizards, the Mothers, Mama Murphy, matronly desk sergeant who disapproves of Dresden's appearance).
If I ever get ambitious, I'm going to get every description of a female character and post them.
*Merriam Webster definition for context: a person who is the cause and object of sensational and usually widespread attention, excitement, or attraction
a blonde bombshell [=a glamorously attractive blonde woman]
But "not knowing what to think"? Well, think that is not your business, Harry! What else is "to think"?
People have opinions about other people's choices. It's why "I know it's not any of my business, but" and similar phrases are so common. Harry can't help but having thoughts about it. Instead of writing a couple of paragraphs starting with "two chicks at the same time" to "that's going to blow up in Butters' face" with everything in between, Jim wrote "not knowing what to think" because that get's across that Dresden has multiple conflicting thoughts on it.
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Well, men are so limited :)
I accept your comment about my words about the Alphas, perhaps they are not all bombshells. Anyway, that is not my point. My point is even if they were all bombshells, they are still RPG players and (probably) nerdy. So I perfectly see them attracted to clever, honest, brave and kind Butters. And after he became a Knight he won confidence, he trained, I am sure he is now quite hot even for conventional, action-movie standards.
Over the last part, we are not mind-reading a real person. Jim had no need to include that part of Harry thoughts.
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Of all the internal thoughts of a fictional character have been observing.... possible judgment on someone in a threesome doesn't even through a blip on the radar for me.
I mean we've seen Harry mull over sexual assault on multiple occasions. If we wanted to send the thought police after him, intolerance for multi-partner relationships would not be top on my list of concerns.....
Though I still find the whole thing as rather random and out of place personally, so perhaps I'm just sympathetic to Harry's not knowing what to think about it.
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It isn't the sex, it's the why of it. What purpose does it have in the story? How does it move the plot forward. Short answer. It doesn't. It's suppose to add the gravitas a knight should have. It made sense with Thomas and it kind of makes sense with Freydis. Thomas is an incubus, Murphy spars with revenants, Michael kills dragons, Sanya gave up a coin and is built like a tank, and Shiro was a Master with the blade. They had a back story that lent credence to their role. Butters plays polka with a one man band rig and has a weightless sword that can't kill people. So, male shorthand 101.
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Of all the internal thoughts of a fictional character have been observing.... possible judgment on someone in a threesome doesn't even through a blip on the radar for me.
I mean we've seen Harry mull over sexual assault on multiple occasions. If we wanted to send the thought police after him, intolerance for multi-partner relationships would not be top on my list of concerns.....
Though I still find the whole thing as rather random and out of place personally, so perhaps I'm just sympathetic to Harry's not knowing what to think about it.
That is ironical, as I defended Harry's inner thoughts several times. I've seen a lot of criticism in this forum about Harry predatory thoughts. Heck, I believe a person I know (not a close one so I am not sure) stopped reading the series because those thoughts were a trigger for her. I was always against those criticisms, because his reactions made sense for a person in his position and Jim showing us that was a way to understand things about Harry, like the strength of the mantle. But I don't understand why Jim chose to show that particular piece of Harry's mind. It's sort of judgemental. His original reaction (aloud, when talking with Butters) had been great. Surprise, of course, but nothing else. But now it is as if JB was saying "Don't trust people who says something is all right, not their business, they are mentally criticizing your behavior". Now that I think about that, perhaps that is why that part bothers me so much, it makes Harry an hypocrite.
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It isn't the sex, it's the why of it. What purpose does it have in the story? How does it move the plot forward. Short answer. It doesn't. It's suppose to add the gravitas a knight should have. It made sense with Thomas and it kind of makes sense with Freydis. Thomas is an incubus, Murphy spars with revenants, Michael kills dragons, Sanya gave up a coin and is built like a tank, and Shiro was a Master with the blade. They had a back story that lent credence to their role. Butters plays polka with a one man band rig and has a weightless sword that can't kill people. So, male shorthand 101.
I don't understand what you are saying here.
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What does Butters having a menage a' trois do? How does it move the story forward? It isn't sexy or titillating, it's wasted space in a book short on almost everything. He's trying very hard to give the character weight and I'm of the opinion that a fight would have served the purpose better. However I'll let it go.
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What does Butters having a menage a' trois do? How does it move the story forward? It isn't sexy or titillating, it's wasted space in a book short on almost everything. He's trying very hard to give the character weight and I'm of the opinion that a fight would have served the purpose better. However I'll let it go.
Exactly kind of like the conjuritis that Harry is suffering, what is the point? Kind of funny, but really do we need comic relief that badly? Butters already had a hot girlfriend, does two make him appear more masculine? Or does he just like to watch? Which makes him what, weird or kinky? It doesn't make him more brave, heroic, strong, or smart.. He was those things when he was still working for the county and went to an insane asylum rather than lie about his autopsy findings. That is why he earned a Holy Sword in the first place. Underscoring that he has more than a light sabre in his pocket doesn't do much for him or us.. ::)
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I keep reminding myself that we've only seen half the book.
Hopefully, there will be a reason (other than some sort of fan-service) for the emphasis on the threesome -- whether it's a clue that Andi's been compromised by Nemesis (probably during Aftermath, when she and Georgia were held by the fomor for a few days -- compare the pregnant Georgia who was still resisting ("She hassss not yet capitulated... interesting.") to Andi who was catatonic); or perhaps it's there to set up a moment when the Alphas have been slaughtered and Butters goes out in a blaze of glory avenging them (and getting Harry the sample of Ethniu's blood that he needs to win).
Similarly, the conjuritis, while the comic effect falls a bit flat for me, is probably there to set up the reveal that Maggie is a wizard and to help Harry learn a new facet of wizardry.
I mean, imagine having this discussion halfway through Dead Beat and people rolling their eyes at the super-hot nerd-girl Shiela who's just throwing herself at Dresden and fulfilling every stupid damsel-in-distress stereotype in the book. Talk about fan service! But she turned out to be a pretty big part of the plot of the next several books.
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I keep reminding myself that we've only seen half the book.
Hopefully, there will be a reason (other than some sort of fan-service) for the emphasis on the threesome -- whether it's a clue that Andi's been compromised by Nemesis (probably during Aftermath, when she and Georgia were held by the fomor for a few days -- compare the pregnant Georgia who was still resisting ("She hassss not yet capitulated... interesting.") to Andi who was catatonic); or perhaps it's there to set up a moment when the Alphas have been slaughtered and Butters goes out in a blaze of glory avenging them (and getting Harry the sample of Ethniu's blood that he needs to win).
Similarly, the conjuritis, while the comic effect falls a bit flat for me, is probably there to set up the reveal that Maggie is a wizard and to help Harry learn a new facet of wizardry.
I mean, imagine having this discussion halfway through Dead Beat and people rolling their eyes at the super-hot nerd-girl Shiela who's just throwing herself at Dresden and fulfilling every stupid damsel-in-distress stereotype in the book. Talk about fan service! But she turned out to be a pretty big part of the plot of the next several books.
True, I've also thought that was the purpose of the conjuritis, but I don't know even if it helps reveal that Maggie has talent if it needed to be drawn out that long? Especially if people have read Zoo Day, it becomes a "duh." Not quite the same as Sheila, Jim did a much better subtle job of making her seem really real until Butters woke Harry up. There also seems to be better ways of revealing that Andi is Nem infected.
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I agree with ClintACK here and I think the Shiela example was in point (only I immediately suspected she was Lasciel and here I have not idea of the point). I think conjuritis will serve a purpose, probably the one you stated, and of course it will be useful at some point. Still, I've complained that Harry did not try to ask Bob about it when they were at Butter's place. And about the threesome, I am not complaining about that, I feel adding traits to a character make it more real, so it's the same if it is that he prefers coffee over tea (like Harry) or its sexual preferences. As long as it does not take much of the story, I am totally fine with that. Again, my problem was with Jim mentioning Harry apparent conflict with that. It was a highlight I did not appreciate.
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I agree with ClintACK here and I think the Shiela example was in point (only I immediately suspected she was Lasciel and here I have not idea of the point). I think conjuritis will serve a purpose, probably the one you stated, and of course it will be useful at some point. Still, I've complained that Harry did not try to ask Bob about it when they were at Butter's place. And about the threesome, I am not complaining about that, I feel adding traits to a character make it more real, so it's the same if it is that he prefers coffee over tea (like Harry) or its sexual preferences. As long as it does not take much of the story, I am totally fine with that. Again, my problem was with Jim mentioning Harry apparent conflict with that. It was a highlight I did not appreciate.
I think you put your finger on it though Dina. Once I thought about it I got to thinking Harry caught it from little Maggie, and when Eb said it is something that usually just very young wizards get, there was the answer. However I am still not sure what the point of the threesome was. Jim write it that way because Butters would seem to be the least likely to have such an encounter so it diverts our attention away from something else?
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I think we might be reading too much (or the wrong thing) into Harry's "... and because I wasn't quite sure what to think about that myself."
If it turns out that that whole situation was a clue to Nemesis -- because one or more of the three of them was behaving out of character -- then that line might just be Harry's intuition nudging him that something's off.
For that matter, from what little we saw, the threesome looked like it might be more the Ross Geller version of a threesome than a healthy polyamorous situation. It could just be that Harry's worried that Butters is going to get hurt.
Also... WTF... Marcy's name was spelled with a 'y' in Aftermath, then in Ghost Story, Bombshells, and Peace Talks it's Marci with an 'i'. What's that about?
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I think we might be reading too much (or the wrong thing) into Harry's "... and because I wasn't quite sure what to think about that myself."
If it turns out that that whole situation was a clue to Nemesis -- because one or more of the three of them was behaving out of character -- then that line might just be Harry's intuition nudging him that something's off.
For that matter, from what little we saw, the threesome looked like it might be more the Ross Geller version of a threesome than a healthy polyamorous situation. It could just be that Harry's worried that Butters is going to get hurt.
Also... WTF... Marcy's name was spelled with a 'y' in Aftermath, then in Ghost Story, Bombshells, and Peace Talks it's Marci with an 'i'. What's that about?
Personally I don't see anything wrong with it, however it was a WTF moment and not because of the way Marci was spelled. Again, just what was the point of it? As far as Harry's reaction, it really cannot be trusted because the heavy stuff he had on his mind at that moment.
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Then he said, in a calm and sincere tone, “Harry, tease me about this or screw it up for me and I’ll knock your teeth out.” And he said it right. I mean, there’s a way to convey your sincere willingness to commit violence. Most people seem to think it involves a lot of screaming and waving your arms. It doesn’t. Really dangerous people don’t feel a need to shout about it. Delivering that kind of warning, sincerely, takes mostly the sort of confidence that only comes from experience.
Butcher, Jim. Peace Talks (Dresden Files) (p. 120). Penguin Publishing Group. Kindle Edition.
The whole thing sets up this line.
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The whole thing sets up this line.
Which also is a bit of a WTF moment.. I beg to differ with Mr Butcher, truly strong people don't need
to say anything at all let alone threaten violence. If Harry was dumb enough to make some kind of crack, it's his problem, not Butters.
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Which also is a bit of a WTF moment.. I beg to differ with Mr Butcher, truly strong people don't need
to say anything at all let alone threaten violence. If Harry was dumb enough to make some kind of crack, it's his problem, not Butters.
I agree with you, but I found that statement made Butters sound weak; pretty much the opposite of the effect Jim was going for. To restate what I said in an earlier post, "What can Harry do to screw up Butters new relationship?" If talking to their mutual friends is going to mess it up or undo it completely, the relationship wasn't very strong to begin with. Plus Butters told Harry, "I don't even know how this happened." That isn't something a person would say who is in command of the situation. It makes Butters sound like he's been manipulated and he's lashing out at Harry because his weakness (in this situation) has been exposed. Bully's act like that. Cowards also act like that, and the two usually go hand in hand. Again, that's the opposite of having confidence.
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Yeah, it seems to me that it's just another case of 'see how badass Butters is?'
First he becomes a Magitech Batman Jedi overnight, now he's banging multiple chicks at once, intimidating Harry so badly he's scared to mouth off, and trashing Sanya in a duel with like, 2 weeks training.
It's just another aspect of Butter's having DM's kid brother status.
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Yeah, it seems to me that it's just another case of 'see how badass Butters is?'
First he becomes a Magitech Batman Jedi overnight, now he's banging multiple chicks at once, intimidating Harry so badly he's scared to mouth off, and trashing Sanya in a duel with like, 2 weeks training.
It's just another aspect of Butter's having DM's kid brother status.
If that is what Jim is going after or thinks he has to do to enhance Butters, it is a shame. Butters has been one of my favorite characters for a long time, I was one of the ones who figured out he'd end of as a KotC back in Dead Beat. Butters' strength comes from his intelligence, his openness, his willingness to stand up for what is right and do his best even though he is scared shitless. " Polka
will never die!"
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I think we might be reading too much (or the wrong thing) into Harry's "... and because I wasn't quite sure what to think about that myself."
If it turns out that that whole situation was a clue to Nemesis -- because one or more of the three of them was behaving out of character -- then that line might just be Harry's intuition nudging him that something's off.
For that matter, from what little we saw, the threesome looked like it might be more the Ross Geller version of a threesome than a healthy polyamorous situation. It could just be that Harry's worried that Butters is going to get hurt.
Also... WTF... Marcy's name was spelled with a 'y' in Aftermath, then in Ghost Story, Bombshells, and Peace Talks it's Marci with an 'i'. What's that about?
You know, perhaps you are right, perhaps it is Harry's intuition. And perhaps the point was to have a excuse for making Butters threat Harry. I don't know, let's talk again after BG, shall we?
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Here is a question, where did Harry get the potions they used om the escape? Harry didn't have access to a lab once Thomas was captured. Yes, he went into the apartment to see if little Maggie was okay, but he didn't have a plan to save Thomas. In the past he'd go down into his lab and Bob would help him cook one up, did he scrape together the ingredients and Bonea help him in Charity's kitchen?
It wouldn't be something he just had on him..
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Especially if people have read Zoo Day, it becomes a "duh."
Why?
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Why?
Because it is obvious from Zoo Day that little Maggie has talent.
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Why is it obvious?
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The Good:
Harry with Maggie.
River Shoulders.
Bonea has a lot of potential.
Marcone in charge.
The Bad:
Peace meeting seemed brief with few members.
Murphy should be sitting this one out.
Butters and threesome. Two words that don't belong together.
Conjuritis..really?