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The Dresden Files => DFRPG => Topic started by: Chao on October 06, 2012, 09:15:32 PM
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Hey guys,
So my crew and I are starting a new game. One wants to play a hydromancer/aquamancer/water bender whatever you wanna call it. He puts his plan to me as thus.
As of right now, I am thinking of modeling a character after the water-benders from Avatar. Ignoring blood-bending (yes, I did read the rules on the seven no-no's of magic) simply set a rote spell in which you freeze water. The first round of combat you hit the Big Evil with a basic water attack, even if I miss, whatever, he is wet. Next round, freeze it. Even if his athletics score can over come BOUND IN PLACE, the ground would be frozen, so in addition to damage potential, you have battlefield control. I am assuming that water created remains, since we know that fire created, also remains as the caster is continually reminded of burning risks.
While I understand that an attack is an attack, I am having trouble justifying why someone would not have a DRIPPING WET aspect on them after getting hit with a geyser of water. How do you guys handle this?
A second question has to do with his freezing idea. Would that evocation then place a HUMAN POPSICLE aspect on all targets and a ICE SLICK aspect on the zone, for a total of...?
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An easy way around this is to require the attack spells to be more than just a high impact torrent of water. Carlos' big green acid-like bolt spell is a good example.
You could justify that a simple stream of water isn't going to seriously harm most supernatural entities in any significant way, though I do admit that's kind of a stretch.
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You can't put two different aspects with one evocation, and you normally can't cause a temporary aspect with an attack (barring causing a consequence, that is). An attack is an attack, and only causes stress and consequences. You might declare a relevant aspect later (which might cost a fate point), but no, you're not going to successfully put an aspect on someone else with an attack, especially not a failed attack.
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right, and I understand that. I was wondering if there was a plausible explanation for water evocations not to do that, because intuitively they would.
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I would make the assumption that while magical fire can create natural fire (read magical = there then gone, natural = sticks around for the party), conjuring water and earth (or things related to such) would fall under being magical constructs that would fade once the power for it ran out. Basically, magically called water evaporates faster than regular water, probably like ectoplasm, so that would work as a good explanation as to why being hit with a torrent of magically conjured water wouldn't leave the target soaked. Now, that being said, redirecting the flow of water or using magic to tear up a fire hydrant or water line would have other implications.
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I would make the assumption that while magical fire can create natural fire (read magical = there then gone, natural = sticks around for the party), conjuring water and earth (or things related to such) would fall under being magical constructs that would fade once the power for it ran out. Basically, magically called water evaporates faster than regular water, probably like ectoplasm, so that would work as a good explanation as to why being hit with a torrent of magically conjured water wouldn't leave the target soaked. Now, that being said, redirecting the flow of water or using magic to tear up a fire hydrant or water line would have other implications.
That, or you could narrate the failed roll as missing entirely, or the bad guy ducking behind something that prevents him from getting wet. A failed roll doesn't necessarily mean the attack hit but did no damage, it just means the attack failed in some way.
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That, or you could narrate the failed roll as missing entirely, or the bad guy ducking behind something that prevents him from getting wet. A failed roll doesn't necessarily mean the attack hit but did no damage, it just means the attack failed in some way.
Heck, something that causes stress and consequences may still not have hit, consider the case of a 5 stress 'hit' with guns, could easily end up being a 3 stress hit with a mild consequence of 'Dislocated shoulder' from the person being shot at diving for cover and landing badly, without the bullet coming anywhere near them.
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Or even on a successful hit, just say that the amount of water sticking to the guy isn't enough to actually do anything with.
There's really nothing that has to be taken as a given, whatever the dice say, in this system. As pointed out, a successful 'hit' doesn't necessarily mean the attack even came close to hitting the person.
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It's also possible to make 'spin' related house rules. The specific problem with doing with in DFRG is that the sort of massively overpowered/successful attacks are largely the domain of evocation. Which is already borderline overpowered. So any house rule addition that start off with something like, "if you get a really good hit in on the other guy, you also get a free aspect" are going to power up evocation, which doesn't really need the help. Even worse, they'll power up evocation more than almost any other ability.
But a house rule that says something like, "after damage is calculated, but before the damage is taken, you can trade 3 points of damage for a fragile aspect or 4 points of damage for a sticky aspect" would not be too bad. Just be aware that people will tend to give you the hairy eyeball over it.
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Being hit with a blast of water will likely leave you soaking wet, but that doesn't mean you'll have a SOAKING WET aspect.
Not everything in the game-world is an Aspect.
PS: I don't think I'd use the canonical spellcasting Powers for benders. They don't seem to fit. I'd probably use either Incite Effect (http://www.jimbutcheronline.com/bb/index.php/topic,25794.msg1539109/topicseen.html#msg1539109) or a Channelling hack where you trade in focus slots for pyramid-less specializations.
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Not everything in the game-world is an Aspect.
Only the things that matter (and aren't already represented by some other mechanic - and even those might also be represented at some times by Aspects).
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If I were writing it, I'd base it off channeling and evocation, reflavored so that you cast with Fists instead of Discipline. And instead of different elements, different specialties within that element--a waterbender might have an Evocation reflavor with the "elements" being Water, Ice, and Bloodbending, or Water, Healing, Steam.
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Not a bad idea, but I'm bothered by the presence of foci. I don't think benders use items like that.
(That's why I went for Incite Effect.)
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Not a bad idea, but I'm bothered by the presence of foci. I don't think benders use items like that.
(That's why I went for Incite Effect.)
Well, sometimes they do--Aang had his staff which he used directly with his airbending, there was one Earthbender who used hammers, and Zuko's used his swords in conjunction with his firebending.
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Were those items special? Did they make their users into better benders?
If so, then I suppose there's a place for foci. But giving foci to every bender and making them as important as they are seems unsuitable. So normal spellcasting is probably still inappropriate.
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I don't think anything's codified or anything, but there do seem to be techniques that Aang does with the staff that he can't without it (flying, for a start, certain blocks, and larger, sweeping attacks), and the Earthbender uses them directly to summon and launch rocks, so they might work as foci in the say of opening up the bender to different techniques (like rote spells).
Really, though, the variety of abilities in Bending could be represented by a number of different powers--a beginning Bender might have a reflavored Breath Attack and little else. More proficient bending might be some mix of channeling and evocation, maybe without the focus slots coming as a package deal, but instead being an option for later on, a la Refinement. A Master would have the reflavored Evocation with several specialties, and refinements to boost their power.
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I dunno, it'd kinda bug me if novices could bend all day while masters had hard limits on their stamina.
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I dunno, it'd kinda bug me if novices could bend all day while masters had hard limits on their stamina.
True, I hadn't considered that.
One other thing I thought of was, you could make it a system where an attack below a certain threshold (say, half of their Conviction rounded down) didn't use up a mental stress. Bending is the only attack style for many of the characters, and they seem able to keep it up for a long, long time (far more than four actions to a fight), but if they have to really exert themselves, they get tired out faster.
I did something similar when I ran a MMX RPG a while back. Busters were Weapon:2 standard, and could charge safely (no stress) up to the character's Energy stat by not firing for a turn and declaring they were charging. If they wanted to charge further than that, they had to roll Energy to control it and risk stress on a blown roll.
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That could work. But it seems like a lot of effort to write, I'd rather just use Incite Effect or something like it.
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haha, perhaps I should clarify. I don't particularly care about simulating water bending from the tv series. It is more the questions about water evocation in general. How do you justify to a munchkin player that a water attack should not leave a "drenched" aspect? Or that a freezing evocation should not be able to freeze both target and leave the floor slick?
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haha, perhaps I should clarify. I don't particularly care about simulating water bending from the tv series. It is more the questions about water evocation in general. How do you justify to a munchkin player that a water attack should not leave a "drenched" aspect? Or that a freezing evocation should not be able to freeze both target and leave the floor slick?
By telling him those are the rules. He doesn't get a bunch of extra effects for the same amount of power and ability of another spell unless he wants to spend a fate point to invoke the aspects of the spell.
You know, that gives me an idea for salvaging blown spells...like if you're fighting a Black Court Vampire, miss with a fire spell, then spend a fate point to declare it sets the scene on fire as a compel against the vampire.
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Are you wearing pants?
Okay, I Invoke your PANTS aspect...
But seriously, not every circumstance is an aspect.
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Are you wearing pants?
Okay, I Invoke your PANTS aspect...
But seriously, not every circumstance is an aspect.
No, but the element of a given spell is. If the player can have the Fire aspect of a missed (or even successful) spell compelled against him to set the building on fire, I don't see why the player can't invoke that same aspect to his advantage.
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As others mentioned maybe the target dodged the actual water and got injured by something else is one way to handle it.
Another way is to say that since it's conjured water it disappears immediately after the attack as it turns back to ectoplasm.
If he wants water that sticks around longer he could manipulate water in the atmosphere, but that's a maneuver so he can't do any actual damage on that turn, afterwards sure.
Since it's a maneuver that means 3 shifts of power minimum against one target. Against the floor that's a maneuver on the zone, so minimum of 5 shifts. If someone manages to dodge and get out of the zone then he's not going to be affected by whatever goes down in the zone he left. If he doesn't get out of the zone then he's a valid target for whatever is done with the water in the zone next.
If your player wants to freeze a target and make the floor slick, then that's two maneuvers I think, so minimum of 6 shifts. Think of it like this, the water is on two targets, the floor and the enemy. He can do both, but due to the mobility of the enemy it's going to take more power and concentration.
I don't know how other people feel about it, but if you really feel you can't justify not leaving aspects on a target hit with a water attack then just up the power cost of the attack, however many shifts of power are put into the attack, and at least 3 shifts for the maneuver that leaves the aspect. Really you're probably not supposed to be able to maneuver and attack at the same time, but if you keep upping power costs so he risks backlash, fallout or consequences it should balance out. I'm not saying punish the player for being creative, but you can totally point out that he's trying to concentrate on doing multiple things at once while he plays Xanatos Speed Chess on the battlefield.
You could also charge shifts for duration (i.e. the water sticking around), and probably should.
I know someone raised the point that conjured fire sticks around and acts just like normal fire after it's been conjured. I would like to point out the difference between conjured water and conjured fire. Conjured fire burns stuff, this generates real fires because of heat and combustion principles. The conjured fire probably goes away almost immediately and leaves vanilla fire, fire makes more fire. Water on the other hand is conjured matter instead of energy the way it's being talked about here, so it's more likely to turn to ectoplasm and simply evaporate after an attack before it can be used for anything else. If it's been obtained via a maneuver (sucking moisture out of the atmosphere) which is a turn in itself it's not likely to stick around and behave exactly like normal water. If it's been obtained via the conjuration method then it's probably going to require shifts in duration for it to stick around long enough to affect subsequent turns.
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Are you wearing pants?
Okay, I Invoke your PANTS aspect...
But seriously, not every circumstance is an aspect.
This makes me want an apparelmancer.
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By telling him those are the rules. He doesn't get a bunch of extra effects for the same amount of power and ability of another spell unless he wants to spend a fate point to invoke the aspects of the spell.
You know, that gives me an idea for salvaging blown spells...like if you're fighting a Black Court Vampire, miss with a fire spell, then spend a fate point to declare it sets the scene on fire as a compel against the vampire.
Maybe I've been doing declarations wrong. If the wizard shoots a geyser of water out of his hands and hits (or misses), can't he make a valid declaration? "There's a puddle on the ground" or "soaking wet pants" on his enemy (which the enemy gets to oppose unless you spend a FP).
So in a sense, the guy CAN attack and put an aspect on the scene/enemy. He just has to make a declaration for it which is another skill role or the use of a FP. Unless I'm doing things wrong...
Also, I don't like the idea of water being conjured ectoplasm. You can't conjure with evocation. As far as I knew that was the realm of thaumaturgy. You're shooting people with water, not ectoplasm that feels like water. You're pulling the water from the environment - Whether that's from pipes, a stream or the water in the air. In my opinion, backlash from a water spell would cause wood frames to shrink and crack because you've pulled all the moisture from them. Possibly, weakening the structural integrety of some buildings.
Edit: also remember, that once those scene aspects are around ANYONE can use them. So if he wants there to be a slick peice of ice on the ground, have your enemies tag those aspects against his allies, or if he's in the same zone, compel him to slip and fall or lose his spell...
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Maybe I've been doing declarations wrong. If the wizard shoots a geyser of water out of his hands and hits (or misses), can't he make a valid declaration? "There's a puddle on the ground" or "soaking wet pants" on his enemy (which the enemy gets to oppose unless you spend a FP).
So in a sense, the guy CAN attack and put an aspect on the scene/enemy. He just has to make a declaration for it which is another skill role or the use of a FP. Unless I'm doing things wrong...
Yes, with a declaration (which I think I said in the first place), but not as an automatic, expected part of the initial action. The GM has the authority to arbitrate the declaration as well, and personally, I would make the player spend a fate point to gain an advantage from an action that failed on the roll.
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That makes sense. Didn't even think of using Declarations.
Also it answers the water as conjured problem if you want to keep that in the realm of thaumaturgy. Harry does say that he conjures fire though, of course that could just be the vernacular rather than the technical term.
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Yes, with a declaration (which I think I said in the first place), but not as an automatic, expected part of the initial action. The GM has the authority to arbitrate the declaration as well, and personally, I would make the player spend a fate point to gain an advantage from an action that failed on the roll.
Right. You did mention it, sorry.
Are you wearing pants?
Okay, I Invoke your PANTS aspect...
But seriously, not every circumstance is an aspect.
If you've read the depantsing thread, you'd know that only works in social combat ;D
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If you've read the depantsing thread, you'd know that only works in social combat ;D
This thread's about to go to a weird place, isn't it?
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The wearing of pants is an aspect when the wearing of pants sufficiently matters.
In-world truths are aspects when in-world truths sufficiently matter.
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In-world truths are aspects when in-world truths sufficiently matter.
This.
Anything can be a declaration. How likely it is / how much it costs is up to the GM & group.
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Pretty simple, if he wants to be a 'Water Bender' then give him Channeling (Hydromancer), if you don't want to use Focus items then convert each into a Specialty (equivalent refresh costs for both). The difference being that wheres with Foci he could go +5 Offensive Power Water, you can't do that with Specialties, you'd need to stagger back and forth between Water Power and Water Control with Specialities (so one at +1, the other at +2, then both +2, then one to +3, etc.)
He wants to use Fists to Evocate? Have him take a Stunt which allows him to replace Conviction or Discipline with Fists (not both).
As for the fight scenario, he would use his Water Attack and hit or miss. If he hits and does enough damage then the player takes an aspect. Even if he says "I dodged and hurt my shoulder" (which I don't entirely agree with) it would be a very reasonable to Guess or Declare that water came close enough to him to at least make him DRENCHED. I'd probably grant a guess which used a Fate Point, and the declaration could just be a contest between the two relevant skills to determine if he managed to avoid the water or not. Once the aspect is on him, you can tag it and do a maneuver to FREEZE the enemy, getting the bonus. Of course, he could always just do the maneuver right from the start if he wanted and, if successful, explain it that way.
Anyhow, he can't just say "Even though I missed I get the aspect" he has to play by the rules. This sounds like a player who is digging a concept without fully understanding the game yet, once he knows exactly how aspects and maneuvers work I expect he'll better know how to apply it.
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Pretty simple, if he wants to be a 'Water Bender' then give him Channeling (Hydromancer), if you don't want to use Focus items then convert each into a Specialty (equivalent refresh costs for both). The difference being that wheres with Foci he could go +5 Offensive Power Water, you can't do that with Specialties, you'd need to stagger back and forth between Water Power and Water Control with Specialities (so one at +1, the other at +2, then both +2, then one to +3, etc.)
Well, no. If you want to have a +3, you need a +2 and a +1 underneath it. There has to be a base supporting the higher specialties.
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Freezing the water on somebody who is soaking wet isn't going to freeze them in place. I doubt even most modern clothing would hold enough water to immobilize somebody. Slow them down? Maybe for a little bit, but I doubt it'd do much more than that.
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Well, no. If you want to have a +3, you need a +2 and a +1 underneath it. There has to be a base supporting the higher specialties.
Yes, but logically once you've finished the pyramid you should be able to step it up while remaining within the rules. So with a typical 5 Element Evocator you'd only be able to have 2 of each bonus of +1-+5, this severely limits a focused practioner's ability to specialize since they would max at just a +1 and a +2 specialty since they don't have any other elements to add a +3 or another +1 to. So once this occurs it would be logical that one you've reached this maximum you would be required to upgrade any +1s into +2s in order to support another +3 and so on.
This is a situation that few would fall into and Focused Practioner's would probably would normally a Foci anyhow, but the OP is wanting to avoid Foci so that's the best way I can see it working for him.
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Focused Practitioners max out at a +0 speciality, actually.
Specialities are only for people with Evocation and/or Thaumaturgy.
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Focused Practitioners max out at a +0 speciality, actually.
Specialities are only for people with Evocation and/or Thaumaturgy.
I know. But the entire point is that he's wanting to avoid Foci since it doesn't fit the concept. To me, allowing Specializations for his Channeling (and thus the required stair stepping) is a better answer than "Okay you don't need Foci" if he absolutely doesn't want to go that route.
Though personally I'd rather just keep the Foci, there's only so much you can adapt a game to fit a concept and in this case it's probably better to adapt the concept to fit the game.
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No, a better option is to use a different Power. Because it's not balanced to let people swap out their foci for specializations. Especially not ones which get to ignore the normal caps.
I once proposed a Power which was like Channelling, but with uncapped specializations. For more or less this exact purpose. It cost 3 Refresh for what you would give for 2 Refresh, and it may have been overpowered.
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You can only bend the character creation rules so far before they break. As others have said, when trying to adapt a concept from a movie or tv show you'll most likely have to make concessions during the creation to male it fit the game rules.
In a case like this that would mean just biting the bullet at using focus items. But something to consider, focus items for the most part are just flavoring, as well as the face that foci can be small and inconspicuious. The character could just use small rings, a bracelet, or an unassuming amulet as foci. It doesn't have to be a giant wizard staff. A character I play as uses a pair of brass knuckles inscribed with magic sigils as a foci for example.