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The Dresden Files => DF Spoilers => Topic started by: prince lotore on July 27, 2017, 03:26:12 PM
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I don’t understand the actions of Luccio in a fist full of warlocks. We have seen Morgan try to cut people’s heads off for even the slightest infractions (granted Morgan thinks everything harry does is dark magic but still) and Morgan has modeled himself on how Luccio has acted in the past. Spoilers after this point.......... but when have Luccio with someone she knows is a user of black magic. Someone who is the leader of a cult of warlocks. His people are coming to kill her and free him and she doesn’t do anything but neutralize his magic. they were going to kill molly without a trial if it wasn’t for Dresden but Kemmler gets his day in court. Why didn’t she cut his head off the second she found out they were necromancers? I find it difficult to believe that warden justice favored the accused rights during the wild west more than it does now. I understand from a story perspective Kemmler has to live but if a beat cop let the guy go that ends up starting WWI how does that cop does not get to be head of the wardens
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Could it be that her knowledge of Kemmler was sufficient that she knew that removing his head would not be enough to end him? That it was better to return him to the council in one piece so that it could be done completely?
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I don’t understand the actions of Luccio in a fist full of warlocks. We have seen Morgan try to cut people’s heads off for even the slightest infractions (granted Morgan thinks everything harry does is dark magic but still) and Morgan has modeled himself on how Luccio has acted in the past. Spoilers after this point.......... but when have Luccio with someone she knows is a user of black magic. Someone who is the leader of a cult of warlocks. His people are coming to kill her and free him and she doesn’t do anything but neutralize his magic. they were going to kill molly without a trial if it wasn’t for Dresden but Kemmler gets his day in court. Why didn’t she cut his head off the second she found out they were necromancers? I find it difficult to believe that warden justice favored the accused rights during the wild west more than it does now. I understand from a story perspective Kemmler has to live but if a beat cop let the guy go that ends up starting WWI how does that cop does not get to be head of the wardens
Well, in point of fact Molly would have had a Trial, by the council's definition, just not much of a fair Hearing, and no time for Appeals.
As to why she didnt immediately go all Judge Dredd on them, she started with evidence against only Page, (who'd killed and worse several people), she knew from her magic glasses they were warlocks, but had no proof of Law violations, and no desire to take odds she didnt think McCoy could survive. And doing so would have also put her at odds with the Sherrif, who was already expressing dubiousness over the "fairness" of the trail page was to be taken to; a summary execution of a man already in prison who by both sets of Laws was guilty of threats Only? Nope, not gunna fly. Though Im sure she's wished over and over that it had fallen out differently, in the years to come.
Also, just because Morgan was trained by Luccio and later became an intolerant ass with barely any integrity left does not mean that is what Luccio was or ever became.
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It may also be that in the past the White Council made more effort to evaluate and test warlocks with the intent to save a few. After all, the White Council is not what it once was....
I wonder when the Merlin took over. Not saying the Merlin is evil, but he is not a man who sees the little people as important except in the abstract sense. He is a "some eggs must be broken if we are to protect our position" type person
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I don’t understand the actions of Luccio in a fist full of warlocks. We have seen Morgan try to cut people’s heads off for even the slightest infractions (granted Morgan thinks everything harry does is dark magic but still) and Morgan has modeled himself on how Luccio has acted in the past.
I'm not sure whether the short story is supposed to have been before she had Morgan as an apprentice, or after he had already graduated and struck out on his own. But if it was before, I could certainly see Luccio blaming herself for not taking the chance to kill him before she realized his identity, and going through a stage of being more brutal to all warlocks as a reaction that just happened to coincide with Morgan's formative years.
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It's quite possible that Kemmler was the one that taught the White Council the attitude to never show any mercy or hesitate with a warlock.
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It may also be that in the past the White Council made more effort to evaluate and test warlocks with the intent to save a few. After all, the White Council is not what it once was....
I wonder when the Merlin took over. Not saying the Merlin is evil, but he is not a man who sees the little people as important except in the abstract sense. He is a "some eggs must be broken if we are to protect our position" type person
Hmm, well him and McCoy are the same age and whatnot, and by Fistful he was the Captain of the Wardens, which has been mentioned as one step shy of the Senior Council. From that Im guessing that Langtry was already on the SC but not the Merlin yet. The World Wars and eventual Kemmler issues are the only times of chaos I can think of that might knock off the upper tier of the SC, other than simple age?
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Luccio does not know who she has locked up until she hears Page call a name: "Grevane". At that point Luccio realizes who she has in custody, and Kemmler escapes before she gets back. She also specifically mentions Kemmler was already on the most wanted list; so if she had recognized him right away, I think it is likely she would have explained to Earp before executing Kemmler in the cell, and led the Warlocks on during the standoff in an attempt to survive/kill them as well.
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Also, just because Morgan was trained by Luccio and later became an intolerant ass with barely any integrity left does not mean that is what Luccio was or ever became.
Oh, Donald had tons of integrity left by the early books. Intolerant, yes. An ass, oh yes. But integrity out the wazoo. He just directed it badly because he was more or less a burn out after a century of fighting dirty wars and monsters.
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Oh, Donald had tons of integrity left by the early books. Intolerant, yes. An ass, oh yes. But integrity out the wazoo. He just directed it badly because he was more or less a burn out after a century of fighting dirty wars and monsters.
Im referring to his willful attempted entrapment at the request of the Merlin in SK, the bit that so shocked Luccio when she learned about it in DB. Once a law enforcement officer starts trying to fabricate evidence to support their foregone beliefs, they've relinquished any integrity they may once have had, and Morgan is no exception. At least to my mind.
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Oh, Donald had tons of integrity left by the early books. Intolerant, yes. An ass, oh yes. But integrity out the wazoo. He just directed it badly because he was more or less a burn out after a century of fighting dirty wars and monsters.
Yes to this, and Morgan is (as best I can recall) supposed to a little over 100 when the series starts. He fought in the First World War. So Morgan becomes Luccio's apprentice something like 30 - 35 years after the events in Fist Full of Warlocks. That's plenty of time for her attitudes about life to have hardened and for her to believe in the need to encourage toughness (for lack of a better term) in those she would train to follow her. Not that Luccio isn't strong in this story but she is definitely in transition to the Luccio we meet in Dead Beat.
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Yes to this, and Morgan is (as best I can recall) supposed to a little over 100 when the series starts. He fought in the First World War. So Morgan becomes Luccio's apprentice something like 30 - 35 years after the events in Fist Full of Warlocks. That's plenty of time for her attitudes about life to have hardened and for her to believe in the need to encourage toughness (for lack of a better term) in those she would train to follow her. Not that Luccio isn't strong in this story but she is definitely in transition to the Luccio we meet in Dead Beat.
Also the weight of Command. She's still just a Warden in FFW, once she actually takes over the Wardens I suspect her perspectives would shift somewhat. And that's the purely mundane weight of command, not even considering that sorts of Secret Arcane Knowledge that might be reserved for those special posts like the Capt. or a SC member, or might have simply been passed down from Her predecessor McCoy.
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Im referring to his willful attempted entrapment at the request of the Merlin in SK, the bit that so shocked Luccio when she learned about it in DB. Once a law enforcement officer starts trying to fabricate evidence to support their foregone beliefs, they've relinquished any integrity they may once have had, and Morgan is no exception. At least to my mind.
Morgan thought he was upholding the law. That's my point, he looked at Harry and saw the BTK killer, or the Son of Sam, waiting to kill again. Kemmler Jr.
His judgement was completely shot by then, but he genuinely believed he was doing right and in fact doing his duty. It wasn't lack of integrity but lack of perception and understanding.
Remember, he saved Harry's life in one of the early books, precisely because of that same integrity.
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Morgan thought he was upholding the law. That's my point, he looked at Harry and saw the BTK killer, or the Son of Sam, waiting to kill again. Kemmler Jr.
His judgement was completely shot by then, but he genuinely believed he was doing right and in fact doing his duty. It wasn't lack of integrity but lack of perception and understanding.
Remember, he saved Harry's life in one of the early books, precisely because of that same integrity.
I think we are operating on wildly different definitions of Integrity then. He had good intentions. Swell. The Road to Hell is paved in them (per WOJ even :P). He also attempted to entrap a man who was innocent in the eyes of the Law, just so he could be turned over to monsters and eaten for political expediency, acting out of his own fear and grief. The fact that he personally thought the man was terrible and maybe should die doesnt make any less of a dishonorable act. He was a cop who was trying to plant evidence and frame a suspect. That doesnt leave one with any claim of Integrity. He could still try to claim that he'd sacrificed his Integrity for the greater good if he wanted, but the integrity was long gone.
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I think we are operating on wildly different definitions of Integrity then. He had good intentions. Swell. The Road to Hell is paved in them (per WOJ even :P). He also attempted to entrap a man who was innocent in the eyes of the Law, just so he could be turned over to monsters and eaten for political expediency, acting out of his own fear and grief.
As I said, his judgement was shot and worthless by that point. But he didn't take the easy way, he did what he thought was right. He was ready to sacrifice a guilty man (as he saw it) for the same reason he was later willing to die for the Council in Turn Coat, or lie to the Council to protect it from civil war. (Here again, his judgement is at least questionable.)
He fully expected Harry to fall for the trap, because he that's that what the kind of person he thought Harry was would do. Note than when it didn't work, he didn't murder Harry on the spot, or try to. He was just caught off-balance and not sure how to react.
Don't confuse personal integrity with personal morality or good judgement. They are different things. A villain can be heavy with integrity. Marcone has integrity, but that doesn't make him a good guy. Lara has a certain amount of personal integrity, but that doesn't make her less of a monster.
The fact that he personally thought the man was terrible and maybe should die doesnt make any less of a dishonorable act. He was a cop who was trying to plant evidence and frame a suspect.
He didn't think Harryt was terrible, he thought Harry was an iminent threat to the lives and sanity of innocent people and the survival of the Council. It was well beyond 'terrible guy'.
He didn't plant any evidence. Nor did he try to frame Harry. He tried to tempt Harry into stepping over the line, so arguably entrapment, yes.
Harry was, in his own way, doing the same thing Morgan did when he shot Corpsetaker-in-Luccio later. Harry was lucky/wise enough that it turned out he was right to shoot the woman who he could not really know was actually Corpsetaker. Even Harry was not 100% sure himself when he shot the woman in question.
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As I said, his judgement was shot and worthless by that point. But he didn't take the easy way, he did what he thought was right. He was ready to sacrifice a guilty man (as he saw it) for the same reason he was later willing to die for the Council in Turn Coat, or lie to the Council to protect it from civil war. (Here again, his judgement is at least questionable.)
He fully expected Harry to fall for the trap, because he that's that what the kind of person he thought Harry was would do. Note than when it didn't work, he didn't murder Harry on the spot, or try to. He was just caught off-balance and not sure how to react.
Don't confuse personal integrity with personal morality or good judgement. They are different things. A villain can be heavy with integrity. Marcone has integrity, but that doesn't make him a good guy. Lara has a certain amount of personal integrity, but that doesn't make her less of a monster.
He didn't think Harryt was terrible, he thought Harry was an iminent threat to the lives and sanity of innocent people and the survival of the Council. It was well beyond 'terrible guy'.
He didn't plant any evidence. Nor did he try to frame Harry. He tried to tempt Harry into stepping over the line, so arguably entrapment, yes.
Harry was, in his own way, doing the same thing Morgan did when he shot Corpsetaker-in-Luccio later. Harry was lucky/wise enough that it turned out he was right to shoot the woman who he could not really know was actually Corpsetaker. Even Harry was not 100% sure himself when he shot the woman in question.
The bold part is the key bit. I fully agree with this statement, I just dont understand how you are can be applying it 180 degrees opposite of how I would. Integrity is: "the quality of being honest and having strong moral principles; moral uprightness." Framing a man for a crime so that you can have him executed for unrelated things is not that, not at all. Neither is threatening a man by getting him to defending himself in his own home so you can have him arrested. Morgan was a tragic case, and ultimately had a good heart, sure. But he was also a dirty cop who was willing to compromise his own ethics because he was old and beaten down and who, for perfectly understandable reasons, simply broke. Gave in. Stopped walking the straight and Narrow and started cutting corners and breaking the rules to uphold the rules. He didnt really come back from it until his entire world shattered in the opening events of TC.
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The bold part is the key bit. I fully agree with this statement, I just dont understand how you are can be applying it 180 degrees opposite of how I would. Integrity is: "the quality of being honest and having strong moral principles; moral uprightness." Framing a man for a crime so that you can have him executed for unrelated things is not that, not at all. Neither is threatening a man by getting him to defending himself in his own home so you can have him arrested.
But what about tricking a murderous monster into defending himself in his own home, so you can remove an imminent threat to the Council and public safety? Because that's what Morgan thought he was doing. It's also why he had no response ready when Harry didn't fall for it.
Morgan was being completely true to what motivated him, then and later, the well-being of the White Council and the human race. I suspect he sees both those things as tightly linked, and defending them as moral behavior. He tried to entrap Harry for exactly the same reason he lied about the death of LaFortier (along with being in love with Stacy) and for the same reason he was ready to 'take the fall' to protect the Council in Turn Coat. In that, he was completely consistant.
That's integrity.
The problem is that he had lost the ability to discern between real threats and imaginary ones. He could no longer see the world as it actually was. That's not lack of integrity, that's bad judgement and being close to the breaking point.
Remember, Morgan did not try to frame Harry. Trick him, entrap him, yes, but I'm not sure the Council would have a problem with entrapment anyway. I suspect their attitude might be closer to: "If you can be entrapped, you should be entrapped, because you're a warlock."
But either way, if Morgan had been willing to frame Harry, Harry would now be dead. It wouldn't have been hard to plant evidence, set up phony sources, etc. Morgan's been at this for decades, Harry, esp. back then, was a newbie and a reckless, careless newbie on top of it. It would have been child's play to set Harry up using tactics that were genuinely over the line, and Morgan never did it. Because he had integrity enough not to do it, and later, he had integrity enough to realize and admit that he had been tragically wrong.
Morgan was a tragic case, and ultimately had a good heart, sure. But he was also a dirty cop who was willing to compromise his own ethics because he was old and beaten down and who, for perfectly understandable reasons, simply broke. Gave in. Stopped walking the straight and Narrow and started cutting corners and breaking the rules to uphold the rules. He didnt really come back from it until his entire world shattered in the opening events of TC.
No, he began to regain his balance in Dead Beat. That was when he realized that Harry was not evil, and that the situation was not as he had understood it to be. It was the near-death of Anastasia in Dead Beat that snapped him out of the dead end he had gone down, and his realization that he had let his anger and bad judgement lead him astray in that incident. He was still regaining his balance as of TC, and did not get time to finish it.
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Remember, Morgan did not try to frame Harry. Trick him, entrap him, yes, but I'm not sure the Council would have a problem with entrapment anyway. I suspect their attitude might be closer to: "If you can be entrapped, you should be entrapped, because you're a warlock."
Why does one even attempt that in the first place? As you say, the presumption of guilt, it isn't a cop's place to judge. Morgan was willing to act the trivial as we saw when we first met him, he was about to take Harry's head on the grounds that supposedly he enslaved Toot. It took some very fast talking on Harry's part to make it not happen.
The idea that Harry got off when he didn't deserve to became an obsession with Morgan, he then made it his life long duty to finally catch Harry in the act and then carry out what he thought was a miscarriage of justice. It wasn't a lack of integrity on Morgan's part, nor really bad judgement.. In my opinion it was inflexibility, Morgan was so conditioned about warlocks that he couldn't believe that there are exceptions to the rule. He really believed the Merlin's adage that once a kid goes warlock he/she cannot be reformed completely so is better off dead. He played lip service to Harry not being a warlock as of Dead Beat, but it wasn't until he became a target himself that he fully understood what he had done to Harry all of his adult life.