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Messages - Basil

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46
DF Spoilers / Re: A reason Dresden was kicked from the White Council
« on: October 21, 2021, 05:13:23 PM »
I have visions of Young Warlocks held in Demonreach under the Contemplation Protocols whilst Georgia shrinks them in Group therapy.

Everybeing taken down by  Demonreach experiences the harm they have committed, certainly an important step in healing.

This is not a bad theory.  I wonder whether Demonreach can actually hold mortals.  Thomas and the "British Sounding Guy" are the only candidates to be "mortal" in any sense of the word.  Of course, Thomas may or may not qualify as "mortal." 

It may be that the White Court are more like the Coin Holders in that its the "demon" that makes them "immortal."  Mab considered Thomas "mortal enough" but at the same time she was going to use Justine as leverage for that, and as far as we know Mab's solution might be the same as Nemesis' solution.  Mab's solution might have been some kind of Unravelling too.  We just don't know. 

"British Sounding Guy," well that's about all we know of him.  He might be Merlin, King Arthur, some other Wizard, Just Some Guy or a jibbering lunatic demon that simply sounds like a pissed off British Guy (see, Chauncy). 

47
DF Spoilers / Re: A reason Dresden was kicked from the White Council
« on: October 18, 2021, 01:28:59 AM »
I've posted before that I think only Merlin and Ancient Mai were actually able to attend the meeting that expelled Harry.  Moreover, given what we know about the Senior Council operates, Merlin controlled the proxies of all non-attending SC members.  We KNOW that McCoy, LTW and even Christos (whom I think is not BC, actually) were damaged in the fight.  Liberty was there, but we don't know if she was injured. 

There was a great deal of controversy at that meeting -- at least judging by the fact that Carlos had been screaming at people during the meeting.

I don't think that Merlin kicked Harry out to flush out the Black Council.  I don't think Merlin really wants to admit to the existence of the Black Council, and honestly, it don't see much evidence of their acting up recently.  After Harry's "death" it's been Fomor this and Fomor that.  Perhaps the Black Council receded to allow the Fomor to occupy everyone's attention.  Now that Harry has destroyed the Fomor -- and he did destroy them -- the Black Council will get active again. 

I'm inclined to think that Merlin kicked Harry out thinking that he could control Harry by enticing him with re-entry.  However, it could just be as simple as not wanting someone with so many divided loyalties in the White Council.  After all, Harry is beholden to/mixed up with Heaven, Hell, Odin, Winter X 3 (Mab, Molly, Lea), Summer, Demonreach and the White Court of Vampires through various debts, favors, obligations, grudges, etc.

If you think about it, it's quite a mess.  I'm told that networking is a good thing, but perhaps not always.

48
DF Spoilers / Re: After the BAT?
« on: October 12, 2021, 02:41:33 AM »
I am reading The High King to my kids. So good! Spoiler alert for this book:

Magic leaves Prydain after Arawn's defeat.

Could something similar occur in the Dresdenverse at the conclusion of the BAT? I'd be inclined to say no because magic is part of the "physics" of the universe, but perhaps if the Outsiders are finally defeated (big if) these physics could change. Maybe magical beings would still exist but not interact with mortals, unless they were divine/angelic. Maybe "talent" would no longer occur among mortals. Maybe God will hit a big ol' reset button (but not in a Matrix kind of way, shudder).

While I love that Book, my guess is that something happens in the BAT that turns our world into the world of the Cinder Spires.

49
DF Spoilers / Re: True Teleportation
« on: October 12, 2021, 01:27:43 AM »
To a certain extent we are discussing semantics.  I think Marcone was doing "translocation" and not teleportation because he needed to have the two points he was traveling to in his line of sight when he began. 

As to why it is dangerous?  It could be simply super dangerous if you lack the knowledge and skill of a Fallen Angel.  I doubt that it breaks any Laws of Magic(tm) inherently.  The closest would seem to be the time law, but what paradox results? 

Drakul seemed to be simply faster than Harry or the others could perceive.  Aristedes was fast, but not so fast you couldn't see him, but instead faster than you could really react to (as a normal human). 

50
The Fomor Servitors suddenly getting to be human, makes little sense to me.  If the Fomor Servitors are human, how are the White Court Vampires not human as well?

Both are "humans" with something not human grafted onto them.  White Court have little free will in being so, or at least the way that Lord Raith ran things. 

51
DF Spoilers / Re: Is Cassius death curse in effect already?
« on: October 07, 2021, 03:40:56 PM »
To be clear, we have exactly one instance of the "Cassius Effect."  We don't have any other person who has lost a coin in such circumstances.

I believe, we only have two authentic coin droppers and two pseudo-coin droppers.

Cassius -- uniquely gave up a coin while he was cornered to save his life after two-thousand years or so
Sanya -- gave up Magog's coin willingly.  Of course, either way he wouldn't suffer from the Cassius Effect since he only had the coin only a few years.

Nicodemus -- gave up the Coin strategically, knowing it would be temporary.
Harry -- never took up the coin, technically. 

I'm 100% certain that Saluriel told Cassius that if he gave up the coin or lost it or had it taken from him, whatever technique or ability allowed Cassius's life to be preserved would be lost.  I'm 100% certain that Cassius believed as well.  I'm not at all certain that Cassius' belief itself didn't cause the "Cassius Effect." 

While we only have one true instance of the Cassius Effect in the Series we have MANY instances of an individual's iron-held belief -- sometimes mistaken -- allowing them to do something they shouldn't be ordinarily able to do; or, keeping them from doing something that they ought to do.  I could even include several of Michael's Sword-less miracles on this list. 

This has happened to Harry several times -- where his own subconscious mind (not black-clad Id Harry) turns against him and he's unable to do "ordinary" things like light candles. 

52
DF Spoilers / Re: Is Cassius death curse in effect already?
« on: October 06, 2021, 02:23:01 PM »
I suppose I need to try to be a bit clearer.  I'm not saying that the Fallen don't have real power, they do.  But, primarily what they offer to any of their hosts -- even Magog -- is knowledge.  Cheat codes for existence, for the small price of your soul. 

The Fallen are consummate liars as well.  The exaggerate and misrepresent what they actually do.  The purpose of these lies seem to get their hooks into you more and more, until you submit to being an actual agent of Hell. 

Let's say that the Fallen teach you to shape shift into a Grape Ape.  Grape Apes are awesome and lots of fun -- you get to throw barrels at little Italian plumbers and stuff all day.  But, the Fallen says -- if you toss my coin, you'll never be Kong again.  You believe the Fallen, because you couldn't do that before the Fallen.  Now you use or toss the Coin and because of your mistaken beliefs you can't go Kong anymore because you don't believe that you can.  Dumbo's magic feather.  You might know how to do it still -- in fact, I think you do -- but you don't believe that you can do it, and belief is all important to doing magic. 

Harry actually talks about this concept all the time, but he rarely thinks about its wider application. His duel with Hannah Lasher is an exception.  He contemplated that Hannah believed that she was more powerful because of Lasciel, but really it was because Lasciel riled up her rage.  Hannah could have learned to do even more potent fire magic on her own.  Harry exposes the "cheat code" approach for what it really is, because while Hannah's attack was more potent that Harry's defenses, Hannah didn't have the depth of experience and broader skill that comes with hard work.  And so, Harry essentially tricks Hannah into killing herself.

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Yes, but not everyone can become an Alpha, there is some other stuff going on as well.  If you don't have that pre-existing talent, without a coin, I don't think it is going to happen.  I think the bigger question is why do you think you need to turn into anything with the power and strength that comes with it?  That is the temptation, Nic is very careful to match potential hosts with their coins, he had good reasons to match Lasciel with Harry.

Are we sure that not everyone can become an Alpha? Because the odds of a half-dozen or so friends at one particular college in Chicago learning to become werewolves at exactly the same time is pretty unlikely -- unless, literally anyone can do it if they have a teacher. 

Further, while Nic is "picky" about his flunkies, Tessa is notably the opposite.  She'll give a coin to whoever, seeing the people as disposable.

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Yes, if he worked at it, but then again how many people teach conversational Etruscan these days?  Yes, with Lasciel's help Harry could and was able to understand the Ghouls.

Yes, precisely.  And, keep in mind Lash didn't actually TEACH Etruscan or Ghoul, she just translated UN style for him.  Now that she's gone, so is his translator.  She could have taught Harry Etruscan, but it probably would have taken a few weeks or months.  If she had, Harry would still know how to speak Etruscan. 

I think that if you review their time together, Lash constantly OFFERS to teach Harry things, if he only formally takes up the Coin.  But, she actually teaches him very little. 

She did teach him a pain suppression technique, which he has used since Lash departed.  She rarely gives away knowledge, as its her only lever.

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No, you pretty much lose whatever skill you got with the bargain.  Look as Cassius, first things first, when he gave up his coin, he started to age rather rapidly to whatever his real age was.

Is that what really happened? Or is that just what Cassius believed happened?  After having been told for two-thousand years that he would age and swiftly die if he lost his Coin, did he come to believe and then his belief made it real? 

He didn't loose all of his Coin-acquired skills either as he could still do magic and produced a death curse at the end. 

One more metaphor to suggest somewhat of a compromise or synthesis of our theories:

Let's say I've been cast in a new movie -- the 600 Hundred -- which will be like 300 but with twice as many people.  I'm a big guy, but sadly a bit doughy around the middle now that I'm closing in on 50.  I could get back into shape, but it might take three or four years.  Besides, I don't myself have the knowledge about fitness and diet, etc. to turn myself into a Hollywood Spartan and just figuring all of that out could take me years all on its own.  Thankfully, the studio has that knowledge -- personal trainers, chefs and ... ahem ... pharmacologists eager and willing to help.  In six months time, they whip me into shape so that I don't look out of place next to Leonidas or Creepy Persian Man.  Now, replace those professionals with Fallen Angels telling me exactly what to eat, how much and when and knowing exactly what exercises, weights, reps and times will give maximum results.  Now, instead of being movie buff, I'm super human essentially and the star of the movie now.   

After the movie is over, the trainers, chefs and drug dealers have all left (or alternatively the Fallen Angel). I can't keep up that level of fitness anymore.  But, I've learned a ton and with some effort I can keep it up at least to a degree.  Maybe I can't be as fit as I was with those true professionals guiding me each step of the way, but I'm a great deal more fit than I was before they came and left.

53
DF Spoilers / Re: Kill Molly Carpenter
« on: October 06, 2021, 12:28:29 PM »
Interesting thought. 

54
DF Spoilers / Re: Is Cassius death curse in effect already?
« on: October 05, 2021, 03:31:53 PM »
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I don't think so, the Alphas didn't need the coin to turn, and so far none of them have even tried to be other than what they are, werewolves.  As far as Marcone goes, at the end of the day, a wizard needs talent to power his spells.  The more talent, the more power, Thomas did say that everyone has some talent, but that doesn't make everyone potential wizards.  I think if Marcone had that kind of talent he would have used it to his advantage long before he picked up a coin.  If he dropped the coin he may still have the knowledge, but he'd lack the power to do any of the spells.

  Or a better example, when the Shadow of Lachiel was in Harry's head, he could understand many languages, read them, even speak them, after Lash sacrificed herself, he cannot do that, nor can he create Hell Fire anymore, though he can create fire..  That is the temptation of the coin, if you could do these things without the coin, why would you be tempted to pick it up?


My point is that the Alphas are proof that you don't need a coin.  I think that Alphas could turn into giant demon bears or grape apes -- just like Listens to Wind -- if they worked on it.  The Alphas are working on other stuff, just not grape apes, according to them.  Frankly, why would they?  wolves are almost ideal predators if you have a pack.  Grey proved to me that giant demon bears are not that practical. 

Harry could learn to speak all sorts of languages too -- if he worked on it -- I can't be bothered to learn Spanish, not because of an lack of use for it, but because I'm too lazy.  But, I'd take a Matrix download of Spanish in a heartbeat. 

In short, the temptation of the Coin is NOT the skills or the power per se, it's that they get to skip the hardship of EARNING those skills.  Hellfire might be the one exception.  You might not be able to channel Hellfire without that demonic bargain, whether express or implicit. 

In short, Marcone could become a Senior Council level wizard -- but he doesn't have the six hundred years of life and hard work it would take.  A Coin is a great short cut, so he gives into the temptation.  His further temptation is that if he could do X in a decade, what could he do with infinity?  I'm sure Namshiel TELLS him that if he ever gave the coin up, he couldn't do X anymore.  If Marcone believes him, then he won't be able to do X.  But, personally, I think it's a lie.  Once you learn to tie your shoes, magically speaking, you can. 

This actually ties into Alera a bit too, potentially rising to the level of a "theme" of Jim Butcher (a weight lifter and martial artist, I might add).  In the early books, the injustice we feel on behalf of Tavi  is NOT that the Aquitaines have nearly god-like power, it is the injustice that it seems to come so easily to them because of their blood while Tavi, who wants it very bad, works very hard and is admirable in almost every respect is denied that same power. 

In fact, we are not really shown any powerful crafter working on being a powerful crafter -- not even the students in Academ's Fury.  I would suggest that this was intentional on Butcher's part, to keep our sense of injustice well stoked.  In fact, Academ's Fury raised my sense of injustice because it just seemed as if the crafting rich got richer.   

After we have Tavi's training montage where Alera herself trains him (though much failure and hypothermia), we learn that even Invidia went through a lot of hardship and training as her father (whoever he was) sent her to learn from numerous master crafters and artisans to refine her skill over the course of years.

Then, as Alera's final act, she agrees to implement Tavi's merit based crafting program where humans will be limited only by their own expectations, desire and hardwork.  Injustice solved for all time. 

55
DF Spoilers / Re: Is Cassius death curse in effect already?
« on: October 05, 2021, 02:25:47 PM »
Cassius' death curse is in effect, but also ineffective.  As Malcolm pointed out, Death is a Door one person wide.  Cassius might as well as cursed Harry to live for all the good/harm it would do.

As to Marcone, I believe he has the strength of will to drop the coin in an instant, if he believes the benefits no longer outweigh the costs. 

However, I wonder if he could still do magic if he dropped the coin.  My suspicion is that, yes he could.  I don't really think that the coins allow you do to things that you couldn't do yourself -- if you had the knowledge, training, etc.  The coins are massive short-cuts to power, not the power itself.

Take the shapeshifting.  Sure, Ursiel and Magog's hosts can turn into very impressive battle forms of grape apes and giant demon bears.  BUT, we know that the Alphas can do something very similar, on a smaller scale.  Perhaps the Alphas could turn into giant demon bears if they worked on that.  We know they are trying to see if they can use their shapeshifting to do other things -- like rapid healing. 

Perhaps Marcone had the tiniest bit of magical talents.  Another person with that same amount of talent has neither the need, inclination, knowledge or will to develop that talent.  And so, even with a bit of dabbling, that person is going to die before bringing themselves up to an ordinary wizard level, let alone to the Senior Council level of ability.  Marcone get's a shortcut.  What would have taken him hundreds and hundreds of years has taken him a decade.

But, kind of like when you take a short cut in real life, if you've made it to your destination, there you are.  Maybe he couldn't do hellfire if he dropped the coin, but I think he could do anything else he learned how to do with Namshiel's assistance for himself. 

56
DF Spoilers / Re: White Council Top Members
« on: September 21, 2021, 12:44:52 AM »
I'm going to be a bit contrarian here.  I don't think Harry is actually that good at magical combat.  I'll bet that he's maybe top 50 in the council, which considering their casualties over the past ten years is not as great as it seems. 

To use a combat sport analogy to explain, I'd say that Harry is a good puncher, but not a good boxer.  Like a lot of very hard hitters, it's a crutch for him and he leans on it way too much.  His duel with Hannah Asher was quite ironic, given that he was essentially fighting himself from only a few years prior.   

We've seen several examples of far less -- let's use the word energetic, rather than powerful -- practitioners demonstrate that they could be more than a match for Harry. 

It's actually a good thing for the narrative that he is so bad.  Given the potential power he wields, if he were also very skilled, it would lower the stakes.

57
DF Spoilers / Re: Demonreach, Ley lines, and Harry's connection
« on: September 09, 2021, 05:35:34 PM »
I can't believe I had not made the connection between the fact that the Denarians used the Ley Line coming out of Demonreach to power the prison they made for Ivy.  They used the magical "Hawking Radiation" from the prison to make another prison.  Clever.  We knew that Ivy was powerful, but now I think I should raise her up a bit.  I had kind of put her on a level just above the Senior Council, now I wonder if she needs to be above the Winter/Summer Ladies. 

Also, I'm wondering how scary the place on the Never Never side of Demonreach must be.  Is it Biblical Hell?  That would be the closest analogy, right?  Both are the primary prisons of the damned in their respective planes.

58
DF Spoilers / Re: If Eb dies
« on: August 31, 2021, 11:04:36 PM »
I don't think Harry is going to get much out of the Journals.  They were a clever way to set up the existence of the Dresden Files themselves.  Harry -- after having saved the world -- sits down to write his memoirs, just like McCoy and his mentor and his mentor before him. 

59
DF Spoilers / Re: Star born and the Antichrist
« on: August 23, 2021, 04:33:16 AM »
At Y's suggestion I'm copypasta'ing a post on another thread to this thread:

Always interesting at the Dresden forums....

Bible study time!  Here is some Bible background on Antichrist.  There are actually two Greek words (the original Gospels were in Greek) used in the New Testament that in English get turned into "antichrist" -- pseduochristos and antichristos.

First, "antichristos" is really just those who deny Jesus.  These people are literally everywhere from Atheists on down to Muslims (whose doctrine denies the divinity of Jesus).  Not great from a Christian perspective, but hardly harbingers of DOOOM!:

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John 1:7: "For many deceivers have gone out into the world, those who do not acknowledge Jesus Christ as coming in the flesh. This is the deceiver and the antichrist."

John 2:18: "Children, it is the last hour; and just as you heard that antichrist is coming, even now many antichrists have appeared; from this we know that it is the last hour."

John 2:22: "Who is the liar but the one who denies that Jesus is the Christ? This is the antichrist, the one who denies the Father and the Son."

John 4:3: "and every spirit that does not confess Jesus is not from God; this is the spirit of the antichrist, of which you have heard that it is coming, and now it is already in the world."

Second, the word "pseudochristos" is the false messiahs.  These people are much more rare and, arguably, much more dangerous:

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Mathew 24:24: "For false Christs and false prophets will arise and will show great signs and wonders, so as to mislead, if possible, even the elect."

Mark 13:22: "for false Christs and false prophets will arise, and will show signs and wonders, in order to lead astray, if possible, the elect."

Note, however, these fake messiahs can produce signs and wonders -- i.e., do magic.  Building from this idea you get the Psuedochristos' final form -- the "Man of Sin" -- or transliterated from the Greek: "ho anthropos tes hamartias"

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2 Thessalonians 2:2-4: "not to be easily disconcerted or alarmed by any spirit or message or letter seeming to be from us, alleging that the Day of the Lord has already come. 3Let no one deceive you in any way, for it will not come until the rebellion occurs and the man of lawlessness— the son of destruction— is revealed. 4He will oppose and exalt himself above every so-called god or object of worship. So he will seat himself in the temple of God, proclaiming himself to be God.…"

So this isn't just a pseudochristos, but THE Pseudochristos.  The Man of Sin is a rebel and a destroyer, an agent of chaos whose hubris and arrogance sets himself above God.  That's what Harry is telling us he could end up being.  And, given the amount of personal power at his disposal .... not an unrealizable goal.


60
DF Spoilers / Re: How long did Thomas know?
« on: August 17, 2021, 02:09:17 AM »
Justine can still do a great deal of harm.  Who knows what secrets she had access to as Lara's Privy Secretary.  Granted, some of that information will eventually go stale, but there will be more damage to the White Court for certain.

One easy example: Justine/Nemesis knows that Lord Raith is a drooling moron.  That is not public knowledge, but suspected by some. 

Another easy example:  Justine's "betrayal" of Lara demonstrates Lara's relative incompetence at scheming, justifying (more) plots to depose her.  Yes, many of her serious enemies died during Blood Rites and Turn Cloak, but many remain, certainly. 

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