So what's the deal with Molly and her new job? Is she still human? Does she still have a soul? Is she going to turn into a full fledged fairy?Watch out. She is probably already Sidhe enough to seriously harm you if you call her fairy.
I think Harry has instilled enough of himself in her to resist being full blown Sidhe... To be a full blown Sidhe you need to fully embrace it... She has in some ways but in others she seems resistant.
And souls can be restored too. Harry doesn't have a finite amount of Soulfire for the rest of his life; he just has to make sure not to use too much, too quickly, and not give himself an opportunity to enjoy himself.The thing is, I don't know that souls can be restored. I have an idea that the way it works with turning fae like that is that the process means that you can't restore your soul, and once you've used up what you've got, that's it. That's how things work to turn you into a full on fae. Something interferes with the process. Molly can't bump uglies for example, which can be a soul replenishing activity.
And souls can be restored too. Harry doesn't have a finite amount of Soulfire for the rest of his life; he just has to make sure not to use too much, too quickly, and not give himself an opportunity to enjoy himself.
Though, as Winter Knight, he'll probably have very few opportunities to enjoy himself anyway, and Molly as Winter Lady will have even fewer...
Keeping in mind that Lily was the Summer Lady, not Winter, there may be different criteria. We don't know just how those rules work.Well, they're both the triple goddess -- the Maiden, the Mother and the Crone. A maiden is, by definition, virginal, so it's a pretty safe assumption.
Well, they're both the triple goddess -- the Maiden, the Mother and the Crone. A maiden is, by definition, virginal, so it's a pretty safe assumption.Well there is a whole bunch of translation issues here ;D
The thing is, I don't know that souls can be restored.They can or Harry's would shrink each time he used soulfire. Bob said it can be restored as well.
I have an idea that the way it works with turning fae like that is that the process means that you can't restore your soul, and once you've used up what you've got, that's it. That's how things work to turn you into a full on fae. Something interferes with the process. Molly can't bump uglies for example, which can be a soul replenishing activity.
They can or Harry's would shrink each time he used soulfire. Bob said it can be restored as well.I meant the souls of those who are fae. If they can't be restored, then it doesn't matter how much friendship, family, etc... Molly has, she's got no way to reap the benefits.
As long as she has love, friendship, family she should be doing ok I would think.
I meant the souls of those who are fae. If they can't be restored, then it doesn't matter how much friendship, family, etc... Molly has, she's got no way to reap the benefits.That is what is sometimes said about the Sidhe but it is not always what is shown, what is shown is slightly more complicated even for someone like Mab or Titania. Even more so for Molly.
The human Molly is still there heavily restricted by the mantle but that does not mean the mantle dictates all her behavior and feelings.MUST the visits help her though? Yeah, she's got some of her humanity left, but it's been a relatively short while, and she's got nigh on eternity to go.
Her weekly visits to her parents must help her in some way.
That is a hypothesis but because Molly is in a transition period and still has a soul it might work slightly different. Her weekly visits home probably do her something good.
At the moment the human is still there under the mantle
MUST the visits help her though? Yeah, she's got some of her humanity left, but it's been a relatively short while, and she's got nigh on eternity to go.Ladies are not that long living, the previous ones were not that old. Give her half a millennium or so and more than enough time to die in some Halloween during the next apocalypse. If she keeps good relations with Uriel he will keep a job open for her.
MUST the visits help her though? Yeah, she's got some of her humanity left, but it's been a relatively short while, and she's got nigh on eternity to go.
She has most of her humanity left. She's nothing like Mab, or Maeve at this point. Remember what Harry was told be Uriel. He still has a Choice. So does Molly. If she chooses to hold on to her humanity she will be ok. At least in theory. That being said, time is not on her side. Time will pass, her loved ones will grow old and leave her one by one... If and when she becomes isolated she will more than likely slip into the Winter Lady mantle entirely.
Jim said Mab may still have some soul left (not a direct answer but left open to the possibility), and her humanity seems all but gone. She embraces being Mab, and has so for a long time. So if she can still have some left I think Molly still has most of hers since she still has a lot of ties to her humanity, doesn't really want to be Winter Lady, and has been a Lady for a short period of time.
Molly has only been at this for a year or so, let's wait until she has been at it a thousand years and see how her soul is doing...
For Molly to make it 1000 as winter lady would require Mab to make it to 1942... and that's not happening :)No because Mab is going to die during or just before the apocalyptic triology. That is the way to make really hell break loose and shock everything. Molly will be totally unprepared for her new role but she will be able to bumb Ramirez and get a few nice changelings as spare ladies.
No because Mab is going to die during or just before the apocalyptic triology. That is the way to make really hell break loose and shock everything. Molly will be totally unprepared for her new role but she will be able to bumb Ramirez and get a few nice changelings as spare ladies.
There's an actual WoJ on the soul thing somwhere. She;s ok but if she lets go too much she can lose it. From reading the short and doing a bit of reading between the lines i think basically the more she leans on the mantle the less "human" she becomes and the more bits of her soul get cut off. On the other hand WoJ confirmed that Mab may or may not still have a bit of hers left, he basically gave the shrug of god. And Mab is ancient given we've been told to look at celtic queens for hints as to her human identity.It is really a long term issue. Great chances that it won't become an issue between now and the destruction of the dresdenverse in the next apocalypse. ;D
Her response to mab at the end about not being done with the conversation vis a vis Tribute speaks strongly in her favour overall. She's not just giving in and going along with everything the fae way.
It won't be an issue in the sense of the Story anyway. In terms of Molly's actual lifespan, 10-20 years (About what Bob gave Lily) isn't that 'long term' really.Bob is somewhat pessimistic because he only saw weak willed knights, he did not give Harry any chance at all.
Already we've seen her struggling with the Mantle literally body-jacking her to force her to fulfill her role as a good little robot, to the point where she can't even speak as she chooses.That is a restriction but she is supposed to work around it. Maeve did not fulfill her role as a good little robot for about 150 years before Nemesis got her.
But she 'chose' to be in the general vicinity of a faerie queen when they died, so it's not a breach of free will to be literally enslaved and have your body puppeted like a marionette! (Seriously, between that lame-ass excuse and Michael's House having holes in it's defences you could drive a Panzer Division through, Heaven needs to step up it's game).Well her parents decided to have children in that dangerous world so the rest is a result of their free willed choice.
Bob is somewhat pessimistic because he only saw weak willed knights, he did not give Harry any chance at all.
That is a restriction but she is supposed to work around it. Maeve did not fulfill her role as a good little robot for about 150 years before Nemesis got her.
Which is also a far too negative description based on Harry’s unreliable narrative. Molly has a purpose, an important job to do and fulfilling your purpose is not slavery. Ask Uriel. Ask Gard.
It is not a waste of her life. She actually has an important role in the defense of us all. Well her parents decided to have children in that dangerous world so the rest is a result of their free willed choice.
To fulfill one's purpose is not to be a slave, my daughter.Someone has to guard the gates. And this is Winter's purpose. And that purpose must be served at whatever cost. And Harry's choices and Molly's, put her on that hill where what could happen did in fact happen. And Mab shoves that fact in his face during that exchange on the hill.
Obviously you have never stood for the draft.Yeah, when people are drafted, they always show up and serve. At no point does anyone have any chance to avoid it or otherwise refuse to serve.
A Queen of the fae has no choice. They have some flexibility in their actions, yes, they're not automatons. But they cannot choose not to do those things. There is no choice allowed.
I think whether or not Molly is "human" or not anymore depends on how you define human. I'd assume her anatomy is all the same,Biologically the Sidhe are just humans. They can after all breed with humans and that defines a species.(click to show/hide)
We do know that she's immortal now, but I'm not sure if I've gotten that directly from the books or from "informed statements" from online.
But most people did go. Because sometimes it is harder not to. As in the book those choices all have a price tag, and sometimes the risk of death was less than the personal costs of refusing.Most people did go, sure. Because of the consequences. But many did not. Because they had a choice, to go or not and face the consequences. For some (albeit not all) of the things for the fae, the consequences are irrelevant. It doesn't matter what price a choice makes because there is no choice. A thing will be done. Not "A thing will be done or..." but simply it will be done. Period. Full stop.
Most people did go, sure. Because of the consequences. But many did not. Because they had a choice, to go or not and face the consequences. For some (albeit not all) of the things for the fae, the consequences are irrelevant. It doesn't matter what price a choice makes because there is no choice. A thing will be done. Not "A thing will be done or..." but simply it will be done. Period. Full stop.
Literally nothing a human does short of autonomic functions related to life (breathing, pumping blood, metabolizing) can compare. Certainly nothing involving societal pressure or punishment.
Yeah, but without context, that doesn't mean much. We don't know how she got around it, or what the Mantle wanted her to do.
Point of clarification: Molly's choice leading to her being the Winter Lady wasn't just "Be nearby when Maeve kicked."
She'd spent most of a year working with Lea, becoming more like Lea (i.e., more like a fae) the whole time -- slightly unhinged, enigmatic, avoiding her friends and family. Lea was grooming her, likely at Mab's direction, for the possibility.
Molly may not have known the consequences of her choice to continue associating with Lea, but she still made that choice.
Further, she made the choice to accept effective citizenship with the Svartalves -- i.e., Molly chose to become the member of a faerie nation.
She could have chosen differently -- she could have taken up her friends' offers for shelter and help instead.
Did she make an affirmative, informed decision to become the Winter Lady? No. But she made choices -- consistently over the course of several months -- that put her on, and kept her on, the path to becoming the Winter Lady.
Bearing in mind what mab had to say later there zero chance what Molly wanted would have had any effect on Lea. She was subbing for Mab in Subbing for Harry while he was incapacitated. Unless Molly figured that out and effectively quit out of being Harry's apprentice Lea was never going to leave Molly alone unless someone made her, and who exactly is there who could have done that?They will let Mab in. She is after all no danger. She will behave like a proper guest.
Your also making a major assumption that Molly's reaction to people trying to help her was A) in any way a a free willed choice, B) would have worked out any better. Frankly without Lea running interference and her active hiding i doubt even Ramirez could have kept her from getting hunted down by the WC. And given human psychology, Lea's no doubt knowledge of it, Molly's emotional state and the general fae willingness to manipulate could have completely taken free will out of the equation. But since that Trauma was basically >90% a result of the manipulation of Harry it may be indirect enough of a way to take Uriel out of the can act picture. In fact that was my interpretation of the whole plot uriel pulled off in ghost story. Some aspect prevents him directly interfering, but somthing about the situation is off enough he can't act directly, (or it could just been the Fae Courts jobs means he's not allowed to interfere regardless of rules violations), so he has to work indirectly.
You could argue this was all a consequence of her decision to become Harry's apprentice, but you can't keep passing the buck back for forevermore, there comes a point at which it becomes inherently stupid because it requires someone to make a completely nonsensical decision that no normal mentally stable person is going to make because the whole point of being a normal mentally stable person is that our psychology is setup so that we cannot make such nonsensical decisions, our brain is inherently wired to disregard them. Hell even a not mentally stable person in most cases has a defined decision making limit set that constrains the decisions within their mental processes they're actually capable of making, (some mental disorders aside ofc).
That said as far as Mollys current will. Consider she can still go onto the Carpenter Property no issues. If she was bound by all the usual winter fae nastiness stuff there is no way in hell the guards would let her in, family or not.
Bearing in mind what mab had to say later there zero chance what Molly wanted would have had any effect on Lea. She was subbing for Mab in Subbing for Harry while he was incapacitated. Unless Molly figured that out and effectively quit out of being Harry's apprentice Lea was never going to leave Molly alone unless someone made her, and who exactly is there who could have done that?Harry straight up told Molly to seek out Ebenezer. She could have done that. Instead, mainly out of guilt, she let herself live like a hobo and work under Lea instead.
Your also making a major assumption that Molly's reaction to people trying to help her was A) in any way a a free willed choice,Multiple characters in Ghost Story offer Molly a place to stay and shower and get herself together. She outright refuses. Seems like a free-willed choice to me.
B) would have worked out any better.It probably wouldn't have ended with her being Winter Lady.
Frankly without Lea running interference and her active hiding i doubt even Ramirez could have kept her from getting hunted down by the WC.Ramirez was the sum total of the White Council's "efforts" to hunt down Molly, and he straight up admits to her in Cold Case that he was not really bothering. He wasn't hindering others from hunting her down -- he was the one tasked with hunting her down, and he went, "Oh, yeah, sure, top of my list wink wink."
And given human psychology, Lea's no doubt knowledge of it, Molly's emotional state and the general fae willingness to manipulate could have completely taken free will out of the equation. But since that Trauma was basically >90% a result of the manipulation of Harry it may be indirect enough of a way to take Uriel out of the can act picture. In fact that was my interpretation of the whole plot uriel pulled off in ghost story. Some aspect prevents him directly interfering, but somthing about the situation is off enough he can't act directly, (or it could just been the Fae Courts jobs means he's not allowed to interfere regardless of rules violations), so he has to work indirectly.Whether or not someone took advantage of her emotional issues, she still had a choice.
That said as far as Mollys current will. Consider she can still go onto the Carpenter Property no issues. If she was bound by all the usual winter fae nastiness stuff there is no way in hell the guards would let her in, family or not.Remember what Cait Sith said.
Harry straight up told Molly to seek out Ebenezer. She could have done that. Instead, mainly out of guilt, she let herself live like a hobo and work under Lea instead.
Multiple characters in Ghost Story offer Molly a place to stay and shower and get herself together. She outright refuses. Seems like a free-willed choice to me.
It probably wouldn't have ended with her being Winter Lady.
Ramirez was the sum total of the White Council's "efforts" to hunt down Molly, and he straight up admits to her in Cold Case that he was not really bothering. He wasn't hindering others from hunting her down -- he was the one tasked with hunting her down, and he went, "Oh, yeah, sure, top of my list wink wink."
Whether or not someone took advantage of her emotional issues, she still had a choice.
She could have gone to Harry's friends and allies and taken shelter there, or she could've gone murderhobo and studied under Lea.
She chose the latter.
Remember what Cait Sith said.
As long as a Faerie doesn't mean or cause harm, they can cross through a threshold no problem.
Harry straight up told Molly to seek out Ebenezer. She could have done that. Instead, mainly out of guilt, she let herself live like a hobo and work under Lea instead.Harry was deceiving himself to make his choice to abandon Molly easier and Molly might even have picked up on it. The Merlin wanted her dead and Ebenezar who was barely able to save his grandson would not have taken more risk for a girl he did not know.
Multiple characters in Ghost Story offer Molly a place to stay and shower and get herself together. She outright refuses. Seems like a free-willed choice to me.Every choice you make is free willed and somehow influences your fate even if it is based on wrong information in this case an overestimation of the white councils effort to look for her. It was also based on mental instability which became better after ghost story as we see in bomb shells. She did take showers at Butters.
It probably wouldn't have ended with her being Winter Lady.If you prefer dead warlock above that, I do not.
Ramirez was the sum total of the White Council's "efforts" to hunt down Molly, and he straight up admits to her in Cold Case that he was not really bothering. He wasn't hindering others from hunting her down -- he was the one tasked with hunting her down, and he went, "Oh, yeah, sure, top of my list wink wink."Or you are just a victim of someone else’s choices. Free will does not even guarantee the possibility of good outcomes. It might guaranty the possibility of keeping your conscience clear but I am not sure of that either.
Whether or not someone took advantage of her emotional issues, she still had a choice.
She could have gone to Harry's friends and allies and taken shelter there, or she could've gone murderhobo and studied under Lea.Lea would have forced her to study under Lea. She was practically doing so when Harry met them in ghost story. She had the duty to do so and an apprentice running away from her duties is hardly a reason to stop teaching her? Lea does not get rid of her duties that easily.
She chose the latter.She chose to cooperate. People make all sort of choices without knowing the consequences.
Remember what Cait Sith said.There are fairies living in the carpenters house, they are making shoes. Mab can walk in without any problem and if Charity is smart she just makes tea for her. The Sidhe seem to live outside the whole heaven-hell thing, they have other duties.
As long as a Faerie doesn't mean or cause harm, they can cross through a threshold no problem.
Multiple points.That is your interpretation of free will. In my interpretation nobody has complete free will anyway and the only thing that matters is if somebody had enough of it to be held responsible for his choices and of these choices had enough influence to make her (partly) responsible for the outcome.
1. Your making a key assumption here. That someone in a sufficiently fragile state is capable of making certain choices. One of the big things about many types of psychological disorder, (and the kind of state Molly was in in GS definitely counts), is that they're quite literally incapable of doing certain things or not doing others because they've got a hard psychological block in place as a result of their disorder. Given Mollys state at the end of GS the odds that she doesn't have some somwhere are virtually nil. For somthing to be the result of a free willed choice there has to be choices the individual is actually capable of making that produce different end results.
2. Ramirez in CC explicitly says he spoked operations by other wardens against her. Are you seriously telling me he managed to spoke every single op they mounted?He warned her via Murphy and told her to hide, not explicitly but clear enough. he knew what he was telling Murphy would have been told to Molly and he did not have to tell Murphy. Ramirez saw no way to save Molly inside the council. He used the power he had and could not have done anything more.
3. I'm talking about the angelic Guardians, not the threshold, there's no question that Grey would have meant no harm, but because of what he is they'd still have been obligated to stop him if he'd tried to come in.Grey is the equivalent of a scion of a fallen angel. He is half fallen. And Uriel had to think about it and did not give Harry an answer, he was glad he did not have to answer that question. Grey is a completely different case because he is more involved in the conflict between heaven and hell.
Point of clarification: Molly's choice leading to her being the Winter Lady wasn't just "Be nearby when Maeve kicked."
She'd spent most of a year working with Lea, becoming more like Lea (i.e., more like a fae) the whole time -- slightly unhinged, enigmatic, avoiding her friends and family. Lea was grooming her, likely at Mab's direction, for the possibility.
Molly may not have known the consequences of her choice to continue associating with Lea, but she still made that choice.
Further, she made the choice to accept effective citizenship with the Svartalves -- i.e., Molly chose to become the member of a faerie nation.
She could have chosen differently -- she could have taken up her friends' offers for shelter and help instead.
Did she make an affirmative, informed decision to become the Winter Lady? No. But she made choices -- consistently over the course of several months -- that put her on, and kept her on, the path to becoming the Winter Lady.
That is your interpretation of free will. In my interpretation nobody has complete free will anyway and the only thing that matters is if somebody had enough of it to be held responsible for his choices and of these choices had enough influence to make her (partly) responsible for the outcome.
Angels tend to be quite harsh on both accounts.He warned her via Murphy and told her to hide, not explicitly but clear enough. he knew what he was telling Murphy would have been told to Molly and he did not have to tell Murphy. Ramirez saw no way to save Molly inside the council. He used the power he had and could not have done anything more.Grey is the equivalent of a scion of a fallen angel. He is half fallen. And Uriel had to think about it and did not give Harry an answer, he was glad he did not have to answer that question. Grey is a completely different case because he is more involved in the conflict between heaven and hell.
Uriel had no problem with Molly in the house. Besides the angels are not there to interfere with free will. The Carpenters can probably invite everyone they want. There are big holes in that defense system.
Multiple points.I don't agree. She was given options. She made choices /before/ Ghost Story started. She decided to stay out in the cold with Lea instead of being with her family and friends. That is a choice she made.
1. Your making a key assumption here. That someone in a sufficiently fragile state is capable of making certain choices. One of the big things about many types of psychological disorder, (and the kind of state Molly was in in GS definitely counts), is that they're quite literally incapable of doing certain things or not doing others because they've got a hard psychological block in place as a result of their disorder. Given Mollys state at the end of GS the odds that she doesn't have some somwhere are virtually nil. For somthing to be the result of a free willed choice there has to be choices the individual is actually capable of making that produce different end results.
2. Ramirez in CC explicitly says he spoked operations by other wardens against her. Are you seriously telling me he managed to spoke every single op they mounted?I'm saying that the Wardens honestly weren't trying very hard to find her. She wasn't Public Enemy Number One, Top Priority. She was "Another warlock out there, somewhere, Ramirez, go look for her when you have a chance."
3. I'm talking about the angelic Guardians, not the threshold, there's no question that Grey would have meant no harm, but because of what he is they'd still have been obligated to stop him if he'd tried to come in.Grey is a very different type of being from the fae. His father is something that the books and the angels in particular, if I recall correctly, describe as the nearest thing to pure evil that there is.
Harry was deceiving himself to make his choice to abandon Molly easier and Molly might even have picked up on it. The Merlin wanted her dead and Ebenezar who was barely able to save his grandson would not have taken more risk for a girl he did not know.I think you're really underselling Ebenezer here. She's not just some random girl he doesn't know, he's his grandson's apprentice, and I find it seriously hard to believe that Ebenezer would toss aside his memory so quickly as to turn her out or turn her in.
If you prefer dead warlock above that, I do not.Those are not the only two outcomes here. Heck, it's an unlikely outcome, considering the Warden tasked with tracking her down isn't trying too hard, and is, in fact, deliberately stalling any other efforts to do so.
If you prefer being dead to save your soul above the duty of defending reality your soul is not really saved either. It is like seeking salvation at the cost of everyone you know, it does not work. It is actually one of the lessons of ghost story and Molly’s burden is just biggen than Harry’s.Again, that is not the only other possible outcome, and I daresay if Molly had made different choices, ones that would not have made her eligible for Lady-hood, Mab would have figured something else out.
I am not sure it is bad either, just different. I do not see Uriel in tears over her and he was concerned in ghost story. Concerned enough to arrange ghost story partly for her which is a waste if she was already doomed.That's a point, but people are talking about how unfair it is that she was made Lady against her will without making that choice. I'm not arguing whether or not her being a Lady is good or bad for her or for reality -- just that it's a result of choices she made that put her in that position, in that capacity.
Or you are just a victim of someone else’s choices. Free will does not even guarantee the possibility of good outcomes. It might guaranty the possibility of keeping your conscience clear but I am not sure of that either.Yeah, free will doesn't happen in a vacuum.
Lea would have forced her to study under Lea. She was practically doing so when Harry met them in ghost story. She had the duty to do so and an apprentice running away from her duties is hardly a reason to stop teaching her? Lea does not get rid of her duties that easily.Lea is obligated to step in for Harry, but Molly is not obligated to accept that help, any more than she was obligated to accept Harry's help.
She chose to cooperate. People make all sort of choices without knowing the consequences.Fair points.
And it might have been the best choice at that moment. People make all kind of choices that influence their lives but other people do so as well. In thuis case Harry’s choice to kill himself and to involve Molly in it did far more damage than Uriel could fix with seven words and some non intervention.
“Why?” Molly asked, her voice barely more than a whisper. “Why are you doing this to me?”
“He’s the real deal, all right,” Bob replied, his quiet voice growing more serious. “According to some of the stories of the Navajo, the naagloshii were originally messengers for the Holy People, when they were first teaching humans the Blessing Way.”
“Messengers?” I said. “Like angels?”
“Or like those guys on bikes in New York, maybe?” Bob said. “Not all couriers are created identical, Mr. Lowest-Common-Denominator. Anyway, the original messengers, the naagloshii, were supposed to go with the Holy People when they departed the mortal world. But some of them didn’t. They stayed here, and their selfishness corrupted the power the Holy People gave them. Voila, Shagnasty.”
“She says they were as much psychic as physical. And that hit to her leg was pretty bad. I don’t understand how your disappearance makes her a criminal to the White Council, but apparently it has. Ramirez has told us that the Wardens are looking to pass sentence on her—but he didn’t seem to be working his ass off to find her, either. I know what it looks like when a cop is slacking.”
Lea is obligated to step in for Harry, but Molly is not obligated to accept that help, any more than she was obligated to accept Harry's help.
Lea is the one bound by Faerie Law, not Molly. You can't give help to someone who does not want it,
and what, pray tell, was Lea going to do if Molly decided to move back in with her parents?
That's a point, but people are talking about how unfair it is that she was made Lady against her will without making that choice. I'm not arguing whether or not her being a Lady is good or bad for her or for reality -- just that it's a result of choices she made that put her in that position, in that capacity.Any choices she made were made at the behest of one of the literal Fallen Angels breaking the rules. Uriel did what he could through Harry, but he could not correct everything. Free Will, it certainly was not.
A few points.Sure, Molly could have walked away from Harry. She could have done so in Proven Guilty, too. It would probably have ended badly for her, Harry and a number of other people, but that is still a choice she had.
Harry meets Lea and Molly in Ghost Story. Read the rest of the conversation. It seems to me extremely likely that Lea did not give Molly that much of a choice. The white councils arrangements are probably extremely strict and archaic especially with a proven warlock and Lea would have had the powers Harry had over Molly and that was life and dead. Harry was not supposed to let a warlock run away, he was supposed to teach her to become not a warlock or to kill her. According to Lea his kindness had not been good for her and Lea acted accordingly.
It was not just about giving help. It was about all the obligations Harry had and some of those were not that nice. Remember Molly could not just have walked away from Harry either. Yes he offered in turncoat but I think he was breaking the rules. This is not the same as getting some swimming lessons from a guy who lives next door.
Molly could not hide with her parents because that would make it too easy for Carlos to find her and that would blow any plausible deniability Carlos had. The same for Murphy actually.Nah. All Carlos has to do is say, "Come on, guys, I spoke to Michael already and he said Molly wasn't there, I don't have to go back and bother that poor family again and again."
You can teach people who do not want to learn if you are prepared to force it upon them. Lea is very good at that. She was exactly doing that in Ghost Story.Lea's good at making you think there isn't a choice.
And she could do so because of deals Molly had made with Harry, because of the authority Harry was given over her to save her life.Molly made no deals with Fae. She didn't even swear on her power as far as we know.
No. Only humans so, Faeries and other Monsters do not, this is explicitly in the text.That is said. But what is shown is more complicated than what is said, both for some humans as for some monsters.
That is said. But what is shown is more complicated than what is said, both for some humans as for some monsters.What I think it comes down to is that some monsters are more human than others, and some humans are more monstrous than others.
What I think it comes down to is that some monsters are more human than others, and some humans are more monstrous than others.
Sure, Molly could have walked away from Harry. She could have done so in Proven Guilty, too. It would probably have ended badly for her, Harry and a number of other people, but that is still a choice she had.You can always fall on your sword. Usually people only consider suicidal choices if nothing better is available and we have seen in Ghost story that it was the suicidal choice that actually caused a lot of problems.
Lea might not have "given" Molly a choice, but that does not mean that Molly didn't have a choice. Lea is not inclined to tell Molly of alternatives -- if Molly can't figure that out on her own, that's Molly's problem, from Lea's perspective.Lea could call the servitors to attack Molly to check her progress. Test her shields with knifes and just attack her. She could litterarily force her and she did, that is what was shown in Ghost Story. She did not just make it seem like, she did. And she got that power and obligation because of Harry.
Just because other choices might have negative consequences (immediate or otherwise) or might not be laid out explicitly for you by someone who has negative incentive to tell you about other choices doesn't mean that the choice isn't there.If an option has a clear negative outcome it tends to be disregarded. I am not talking about choices given by Lea, Molly is smart enough to look at her own options. I am talking about the options open to her that have any realistic chance to end well.
Nah. All Carlos has to do is say, "Come on, guys, I spoke to Michael already and he said Molly wasn't there, I don't have to go back and bother that poor family again and again."Until somebody else from the white council sees her there and informs people.
Lea's good at making you think there isn't a choice.
Just like Mab made Harry think he didn't have a choice ... until Uriel whispered in his ear.Just because Mab sometimes operates that way does not mean they always do.
Again: Mab and Lea both benefit greatly from Molly and Harry thinking they have them over a barrel without any choice in the matter. It's in Mab and Lea's interest to make it seem as if they don't have a choice, but Harry clearly does, so I don't see why Molly wouldn't either.Again it is not about what Lea or Mab was telling to Molly. It is about the choices she actually had. There is a great difference.
Think about it -- how many times did Lash try to make it seem like Harry had no choice but to accept power from her?
Someone with an agenda telling you that you don't have a choice doesn't mean it's true
-- it means they benefit from you not choosing differently.That is fine for them but this is about what choices would benefit Molly.
Molly made no deals with Fae. She didn't even swear on her power as far as we know.She will send lessons her way like she did with the servitors. She even combined it with a lesson for Harry. She is very good in that sort of thing.
How is Lea going to force her to learn? Is she going to mess with Molly's mind to make her more pliable? Well, that ruins any point in teaching her because you're scrambling her brain. Ditto with threatening to kill her.
In reality? Lea has no leverage to "force" Molly to do anything. Molly has choices -- there is always a choice -- but her guilt and Lea's manipulation put her in denialThere are probably oaths involved in the apprenticeship and certainly heavy obligations. These were not oaths sworn to any Sidhe at all but Mab was bound to it.
You can always fall on your sword. Usually people only consider suicidal choices if nothing better is available and we have seen in Ghost story that it was the suicidal choice that actually caused a lot of problems.Like I said -- it was a choice. Bad choices are still choices, and if Molly had decided to tell Harry to screw off, there isn't anything he could have done to make her take his tutelage.
Lea could call the servitors to attack Molly to check her progress. Test her shields with knifes and just attack her. She could litterarily force her and she did, that is what was shown in Ghost Story. She did not just make it seem like, she did. And she got that power and obligation because of Harry.And if Molly is staying at the BFS building, which has a threshold and a crapload of Einherjar to defend the place? Or if she's staying at her parents' house, and replace the Einherjar with angels? She could only "force" Molly to do anything because Molly eliminated her other choices herself.
If an option has a clear negative outcome it tends to be disregarded. I am not talking about choices given by Lea, Molly is smart enough to look at her own options. I am talking about the options open to her that have any realistic chance to end well.You are talking about choices Lea gave Molly:
It seems to me extremely likely that Lea did not give Molly that much of a choice.
Until somebody else from the white council sees her there and informs people.Remember the part about how the Fomor are only a big presence in Chicago because there isn't a White Council presence? Seriously, that's a whole thing, that things are so bad because there aren't wizards there, and the one that bothers showing up is Carlos.
Just because Mab sometimes operates that way does not mean they always do.Yeah, it's not like Mab sets the tone for her kingdom, or like Lea is explicitly taking Mab's role for the sake of acting in Mab's place the way Mab would or anything.
Again it is not about what Lea or Mab was telling to Molly. It is about the choices she actually had. There is a great difference.Yeah. They weren't telling her she had any options, so in her guilt-riddled mind, she assumed there weren't any, or explicitly rejected the ones she was aware of.
That is fine for them but this is about what choices would benefit Molly.Yes, like opening up to her friends and allies and seeking shelter from people not grooming her for a job that will eventually eat away at her soul.
She will send lessons her way like she did with the servitors. She even combined it with a lesson for Harry. She is very good in that sort of thing.Again: I'd like to see her try it when Molly's at the BFS or her parents' house.
There are probably oaths involved in the apprenticeship and certainly heavy obligations. These were not oaths sworn to any Sidhe at all but Mab was bound to it.Mab was bound to her vassal's obligations.
That means Lea was bound to the full obligation Harry had to Molly as Mab would interpret it. This can not be just the obligation to give some free lessons.
Lea could not leave Molly alone and that means she could and would have followed her everywhere. Easy for Lea.
No. Only humans so, Faeries and other Monsters do not, this is explicitly in the text.I assume this is a response for me. Here's the WOJ.
Mab, for example, is Mab. She /can’t/ show up and suddenly be merciful, generous, patient and kind. It would never so much as occur to her to do so, because it isn’t a fundamental part of her nature, and she /can’t/ choose to change it. She simply isn’t capable. She doesn’t have free will in the same way that people do. It’s related to the difference between having a soul and not having a soul, as well. Without a soul, you aren’t free to choose how you will shape that soul. You just stay what you are.A couple of observations.
Like I said -- it was a choice. Bad choices are still choices, and if Molly had decided to tell Harry to screw off, there isn't anything he could have done to make her take his tutelage.The idea that Molly can cust end her apprenticeship is false, she would be just the apprentice who ran away and Harry would be obliged to run after her and kill her as a warlock or bring her back to him. Suicidal choices are free willed choices but I do not expect people to go for them.
And if Molly is staying at the BFS building, which has a threshold and a crapload of Einherjar to defend the place? Or if she's staying at her parents' house, and replace the Einherjar with angels? She could only "force" Molly to do anything because Molly eliminated her other choices herself.
The other thing? As Harry points out, among the obligations Lea took on from Harry are to protect and take care of Molly, which is why I think she'd hold back from actually killing her or bringing her real harm.
You are talking about choices Lea gave Molly:
And Molly is smart enough? When she's half brain-fried from malnutrition and she's on the Self-Flagellation Express? Molly post Changes is very much not a Molly who's in charge of all her critical thinking and objective, rational thought faculties.
She's not calmly laying out all her options and rationally deciding on the best course of action. She's crippled with guilt because she just murdered the man she loves and she probably feels like she deserves all the crap Lea puts on her.
Remember the part about how the Fomor are only a big presence in Chicago because there isn't a White Council presence? Seriously, that's a whole thing, that things are so bad because there aren't wizards there, and the one that bothers showing up is Carlos.
Yeah, it's not like Mab sets the tone for her kingdom, or like Lea is explicitly taking Mab's role for the sake of acting in Mab's place the way Mab would or anything.
Mab isn't unique in that respect. That's what all faeries do, it's how they get you into those deals.
I mean, let's look at Lea herself. Her "deal" with Harry to give him power to beat HWWB... which amounted to a magic feather and getting Harry to swear to give himself over to her. Harry absolutely had a choice there, considering Lea's "help" didn't actually do anything tangible, but she certainly didn't put it that way, now did she?
Yeah. They weren't telling her she had any options, so in her guilt-riddled mind, she assumed there weren't any, or explicitly rejected the ones she was aware of.
Yes, like opening up to her friends and allies and seeking shelter from people not grooming her for a job that will eventually eat away at her soul.
Choices that she has, but doesn't realize she has or has rejected because she's racked with guilt.
Again: I'd like to see her try it when Molly's at the BFS or her parents' house.
Mab was bound to her vassal's obligations.
If Molly walks away and declares she's no longer Harry's apprentice, it's no longer Mab's obligation. Molly is an adult with free will, and she absolutely has other choices besides starving, sleeping in the snow and letting Lea throw knives at her.
She's just not in a place where she sees those choices, and Lea is not going to go out of her way to let her newest plaything think she actually has a choice in the matter.
The angelic guards would not and the bff could not defend against a group of wardens.Yep. I don't know that the bff would protect Molly, why would they? Marcone pays them and he is a signatory of the accords, if the council asks he would have to give her up. And Molly would be safe at home only in the sense that a prisoner on death row is safe from street crime. Assuming she still shares in the angelic protection as an adult. And the council needn't act directly to find her. They can do what they did for Morgan. Put a bounty on her. If they want her they will keep coming until they get her. You could almost call them the spooky FBI. Who never stop looking.
Yep. I don't know that the bff would protect Molly, why would they? Marcone pays them and he is a signatory of the accords, if the council asks he would have to give her up. And Molly would be safe at home only in the sense that a prisoner on death row is safe from street crime. Assuming she still shares in the angelic protection as an adult. And the council needn't act directly to find her. They can do what they did for Morgan. Put a bounty on her. If they want her they will keep coming until they get her. You could almost call them the spooky FBI. Who never stop looking.Cool is very important. See them as Michael's honor guard.
I really don't know what the angelic guards are good for. Except for sounding "cool". As close as I can figure it all they do is keep the fallen from acting directly. That fight at the house was pretty dramatic. But Nick should have called in a drone strike. To paraphrase a paraphrase, it was the only way to be sure. And the angels wouldn't have done anything.(You might guess I am rereading PG) :)
The idea that Molly can cust end her apprenticeship is false, she would be just the apprentice who ran away and Harry would be obliged to run after her and kill her as a warlock or bring her back to him. Suicidal choices are free willed choices but I do not expect people to go for them.And her apprenticeship would be over, so yes, she can just end her apprenticeship.
Molly could have visited her friends more than she did probably but staying with them was not smart. The white council is not a unified block and some of them have different ways of looking and Carlos looking away would have become difficult if he got specific information.And who's going to give him this specific information? Molly's friends are already not telling him where she is, and do you think it's public information what goes on inside Marcone's literal fortress?
The angelic guards would not and the bff could not defend against a group of wardens.Because the White Council is going to be willing to go to war against another signatory of the accords just to track down a single warlock?
And when Molly started training with Lea Winter Lady was not the most likely outcome she could have expected. It was not what Mab had planned.So? Do you think Lea or Mab were preparing Molly for something for Molly's good out of the simple charity of their frostbitten hearts?
Your in the position of the audience. Molly's POV is the world hates me and I've got to hide. Or to go all biblical. The wicked flee though no one pursues, but the righteous are as bold as a lion. Although Molly isn't wicked.(although after Cold Case Ramirez may doubt that) ;)Yes, she has choices that she cannot and will not see because of her POV, guilt and mental issues, that is my point exactly, thank you! :)
Molly has free will or had, she made her choice freely to train with Lea. Now she will have to deal with the consequences of that choice. Question, does Molly still have free will? Presumably Mab no longer has it, but do the Ladies?
Well it's not like intimacy with another person is the only way to regrow the soul. Making art would probably do.
But I'm not sure there is a recharge option for somebody who's carrying one of the Queen mantles at all.
Just because Art could replenish the soul (and I'm not sure that it can, without another soul there to interact with) doesn't mean it requires a soul to be done. Hugging replenishes the soul, you want to try to argue that a fae can't hug someone? Maybe not Mab, but Summer almost certainly can, with all the comfort and empathy of a regular human.Now I kind of want to see Mab try to hug someone, for how hilariously awkward and stilted it probably is.
I am aware. Not having FREE Will =/= not having Will at all. Mab for example can still make plans and decisions within her purview, but she lacks free will because there are times and places where she literally cannot take certain options.If she wants to do something but she can not do something she still has the will to do it. As long as the mantle is seen as something different from herself it blocking her actions is outside interference not fundamentally different from someone else stopping you.
The most obvious example is Killing. Mab can't kill someone unless they leave themselves open to her by involvement with the Courts. (Which is why she has a Knight to do it via loopholes)