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The Dresden Files => DF Spoilers => Topic started by: KurtinStGeorge on August 13, 2020, 12:42:18 AM
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Can you come up with an alternative scenario? Do you think that one of the named options or something very similar occurred, but somehow Mab, Ebenezer or even Justine is part of the equation, perhaps as a third party pushing Thomas or offering him protection if he took the offer.
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I voted "no freak'n clue".
There just isn't enough information in the book to have any idea what happened.
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He seemed to have something of a plan in mind during chapter one so I'm going with Thomas making a deal off-screen.
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He was a dupe, given a disguised bomb by a Swartalf or wizard as he was about to see Etri about Asylum for him and Justine and the baby
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He seemed to have something of a plan in mind during chapter one so I'm going with Thomas making a deal off-screen.
Yeah, I think so.
Mab seems the most likely option, but I'm not sure why Mab would want Etri (or Austri) killed. If he was Nemfected, maybe, but wouldn't she send Harry to do that?
Mab might have a larger plan in mind though. Like maybe the real goal was to get Thomas captured, and then Mab arranges to loan Harry to Lara, so Harry looks like he's been subverted by the White Court, dividing him from the Council so he has to rely on Mab more.
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Yeah, I think so.
Mab seems the most likely option, but I'm not sure why Mab would want Etri (or Austri) killed. If he was Nemfected, maybe, but wouldn't she send Harry to do that?
Mab might have a larger plan in mind though. Like maybe the real goal was to get Thomas captured, and then Mab arranges to loan Harry to Lara, so Harry looks like he's been subverted by the White Court, dividing him from the Council so he has to rely on Mab more.
Yeah, I think Mab may have out smarted herself though this time.
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He seemed to have something of a plan in mind during chapter one so I'm going with Thomas making a deal off-screen.
Justine is in danger, but she's only six weeks in. Making a deal to assassinate a (moderately friendly) king, and putting his niece in danger by being in the target's building at the time, seems kind of drastic for buying protection from a slow-moving danger. I don't doubt he'd do it for Justine if it was the only way to save her, but I think he'd try harder to exhaust other alternatives for protecting her first.
I'm thinking either he went to a meet trying to negotiate with someone/something for protection in exchange for a less radical favour and got jumped and mind-whammied, there was some sort of inside job to frame him, or he's nem-fected.
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I sincerely hope he isn't Nem infected, that seems to be the go to reason for everything these days.
No, I think he is worried out of his mind over Justine and desperate, so he would make a deal. However unless she is lying it seems odd that he wouldn't talk to Lara about it. Simply because before she might have some ideas on how to help, she'd remember when Thomas' own mother was pregnant.
However I think this was set up some time ago, beginning with a pregnancy that shouldn't have happened if Thomas was telling the truth to Harry about himself and that they were using protection to boot. Tin hat time, we know that Mab can mess with a mind so things are forgotten. What if she messed with Justine's mind so she'd either forget to take her birth control or misuse it.. Don't know if she can increase sperm count though, but I wouldn't put it past her.. Just odd, the timing of the pregnancy, Mab showing up with Lara pulling Harry in to pay favors owed to the White Court and then Thomas ends up in deep, deep,do do.
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The White Court have an exceedingly low reproduction rate, and with the twins dead, and Inari going house Raith numbers have decreased over the last decade.
The baby is therefore precious to them, especially if the female Whamp reproduction rate is lower than the Whamp. Lara and her sisters may be broody, look at how she treats Thomas, as much a surrogate son as a brother.
Thomas is likely aware of this and doesn’t want his family sucked whole into the White Court, where Justine would be considered expendable for the baby. He might therefore sought asylum/Guest Right from Etri, but this was hijacked, by either forces within or without the Swartalves.
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I voted "Thomas was extorted through threats made by a third party against Justine into attacking Etri," but I think the third party is a cut out used by Justine. Thomas figured it out too late and was trying to warn Harry.
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Whoever is responsible (Justine, Mab, Nemesis, Thomas himself) - why?
That is, why would anyone particularly want to kill Etri (or Austri)?
The svartalves seem to kind of keep to themselves mostly, so they're not much of a threat, and they don't seem central to holding the Accords together or a primary combative force, so it's not clear why they'd be particularly high on the bad guys' list.
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Whoever is responsible (Justine, Mab, Nemesis, Thomas himself) - why?
That is, why would anyone particularly want to kill Etri (or Austri)?
The svartalves seem to kind of keep to themselves mostly, so they're not much of a threat, and they don't seem central to holding the Accords together or a primary combative force, so it's not clear why they'd be particularly high on the bad guys' list.
That is the real weakness in my opinion of Peace Talks, Harry didn't even manage an outline of a working theory. Those are the ties that bind the story together, hopefully we will get motive in Battle Ground.
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The only group we know with a grudge against Etri is the Fomor. They will be angry about what happened to their noble in Bombshells.
APG
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The only group we know with a grudge against Etri is the Fomor. They will be angry about what happened to their noble in Bombshells.
APG
Yeah, I need to go back and reread Bombshells.. However if the Fomor is the only group that we know of that has a grudge Etri, that suggests that Thomas was acting for them. The question then becomes why, if it true? Reason against, everyone that Thomas has worked with or helped from Harry to Butters are against the Fomor for a number of reasons. So just what could the Fomor offer him to make him do such a thing? Do they have some cure for Justine? Or is there another group out there no one has heard of? Or does it all go back to Mab again who is orchestrating a huge diversion that backfired or seemingly backfired for her greater chess game?
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Yeah, maybe the Fomor, but I was thinking they'd blame their loss in "Bombshells" more on the BFS (and maybe Winter since Molly is Winter Lady now) than on the svartalves.
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Whoever is responsible (Justine, Mab, Nemesis, Thomas himself) - why?
That is, why would anyone particularly want to kill Etri (or Austri)?
The svartalves seem to kind of keep to themselves mostly, so they're not much of a threat, and they don't seem central to holding the Accords together or a primary combative force, so it's not clear why they'd be particularly high on the bad guys' list.
That's assuming trying to kill Etri was actually about wanting Etri dead, or (at a stretch) Austri.
The svartalves might have been targeted simply because they were hosting Harry. The Black Council is trying to put pressure on Harry from as many fronts as possible. Could be attacking Etri was just a convenient way to put Thomas out of action as an ally, and in enough danger to distract Harry from contesting the political plot against him. And however it turned out, this was going to drive a wedge between Harry and Svartalfheim, forcing him out of a secure place to live, and depriving the guy who has an uncanny affinity for crafting enchanted objects from forming closer ties with the supernatural world's preeminent craftsmen. He's irritating enough as is; if he starts spending diamonds on getting support to make elite focus objects, he's going to become that much more of a problem for them.
The only group we know with a grudge against Etri is the Fomor. They will be angry about what happened to their noble in Bombshells.
If I recall correctly, though, the implication was that the empress wanted the treaty, and the lord was freelancing with the bomb plot. Listen followed orders because they're mad hierarchical and the svartalves would have been stuck in the bargain after they signed anyway so long as the gas killed everyone but them, but lord Froggy was going against the spirit of his orders, if not their letter. His kin and allies might have a grudge, but I'm not sure Ethniu is going to be carrying a personal grudge over that one.
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Unless of course it was all oblivion war stuff which Harry is totally oblivious to.
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Etri's sister might be behind it all. She already appeared in Bombshells where she distracted Thomas. She has been in close contact with him ever since, so she had some opportunities to maybe spy on Lara via Thomas ans or Justine. She was telling Harry what supposedly happened, which could be a clue that it is her story, literally as in orchestrated by her.
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Thomas lost ontrol of his hunger.
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Thomas lost ontrol of his hunger.
I don't think so... when a Raith loses control of their hunger, it means their lust-inducing powers turn on/strengthen when they don't intend them to (like Thomas getting fired from jobs in DB, or Lara's Hunger-aura turning on in PT), or when actually feeding it means they take too much energy.
It doesn't make them attack people physically.
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Unless of course it was all oblivion war stuff which Harry is totally oblivious to.
That was my first thought, but presumably Harry is going to find *some* answer (either in BG or in a later book when Thomas is released), and I think Harry isn't going to find out about the Oblivion War.
Of course maybe Harry will just find out that Lara ordered him to do it, and we (the readers) will know it's an Oblivion War thing (in the same way that Harry doesn't know in PT what happened to Carlos, but it's clear to the readers that it was Molly in "Cold Case").
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I don't think so... when a Raith loses control of their hunger, it means their lust-inducing powers turn on/strengthen when they don't intend them to (like Thomas getting fired from jobs in DB, or Lara's Hunger-aura turning on in PT), or when actually feeding it means they take too much energy.
It doesn't make them attack people physically.
We saw what happened when the hunger demon lost control in turn coat. That was a few steps further than just letting the demon feed when it is inconvenient. It completely took over and changed Thomas. The svartalves could very well interpret that as an attack.
And the skinwalker is still unaccounted for.
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We saw what happened when the hunger demon lost control in turn coat. That was a few steps further than just letting the demon feed when it is inconvenient. It completely took over and changed Thomas. The svartalves could very well interpret that as an attack.
And the skinwalker is still unaccounted for.
I am inclined to discount a skinwalker because I think they caught Thomas almost instantly.
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I am inclined to discount a skinwalker because I think they caught Thomas almost instantly.
It could also be some stupid experimenting with the hunger in a misguided attempt to protect Justine.
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It could also be some stupid experimenting with the hunger in a misguided attempt to protect Justine.
That actually makes sense, however assassination it usually a political act, or it is personal. One question not asked, was there a conspiracy? Was Thomas a part of that? What is it's motives? Or
was it purely personal on the part of Thomas, dislike or attempt to protect Justine? I don't think
Thomas lost his mind because of the Hunger, he was feeding. I don't think he lost control of his Hunger, because up until now, all that ever meant was feeding upon the victim until death, not trying to blow someone up..
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That’s the dichotomy, political Eb (although Eb also has personal), personal Evanna. Eb may have wanted a war of extinction against the White Court (covering Thomas), Evanna may have wanted to deny whatever help Thomas was seeking from Etri as regards Justine.
Thomas and Justine live in an apartment a couple of stories above ground level, so no earth walking into there. It strikes me that we were treated to an exposition of earth walking in PT, suggesting it is going to be relevant in BG. It would be awfully easy to grab Justine off the street using that method, during BG under the noses of those surveilling her, time it right, she just vanishes, entombed in the earth, unless of course the Justine they grab is Goodman Grey.
This makes sense if the motive is personal in setting Thomas up, Justine would be next, but why delay? Unless there is a good reason for the delay, no opportunity for a clean grab because the victim is not in a good position, and too many looking.
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It could also be some stupid experimenting with the hunger in a misguided attempt to protect Justine.
I really don't think the Hunger has anything to do with it. Sure, in extreme situations the Hunger can override the "human-side" will of a Whampire, but that would lead to Thomas fatally feeding on someone (in the Svartalves' embassy, likely Evanna), not a direct physical attack on Etri or Austri.
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I really don't think the Hunger has anything to do with it. Sure, in extreme situations the Hunger can override the "human-side" will of a Whampire, but that would lead to Thomas fatally feeding on someone (in the Svartalves' embassy, likely Evanna), not a direct physical attack on Etri or Austri.
I totally agree, I think the Hunger had anything to do with it either.