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Messages - Eunomiac

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DFRPG / Re: +0 Catch for WCVs?
« on: May 01, 2011, 01:40:05 AM »
Blast, I thought my victory was secure! ;)  Also, I apologize in advance for my love of arguing.

On "Access:"

"White Court vampires suffer injury from True expressions of pure, selfless emotions .... This effect includes physical objects related to that emotional energy (some White Court vampires have suffered grave injury from handling a wedding ring or a rose exchanged between lovers)." (OW90-91)

Now, I'm aware of that "some" in there, and how narrow a field it might circumscribe.  But you would need to define "wedding ring" nearly out of existence to make it as rare as one of THE nails on THE Cross.  For a +0 to stick, only "one or two people in the entire world" even have access to the Catch.  Those are some very special wedding rings.

If it sounds like I'm being too literal on the "one or two people" thing, the comparative example in the book is a Sword of the Cross.  The next step down, a +1 Catch, is accessible only to "a very rare class of people" -- as rare as True Magic.  Moreover, the Raith Catch isn't limited to wedding rings:  There are roses in there too, and framed pictures, and jewelry, and just about anything else exchanged by people in True Love (a--wait for it--"very rare class of people"), as well as expressions of True Love, whatever that means. ("Lord Raith, never bring a gun to... A POETRY FIGHT!")

Extrapolating to fear/True Courage: Medals and many other relics of war would have to count for True Courage vs Malvora, or I just don't understand the concept of True Courage.  Raiding a museum or military family's suburban home, while ghoulish and deplorable and probably a lot of fun to roleplay, remains just a touch easier than pilfering Esperaccius from a Knight of the Cross.

As for weaponizing these trinkets, well, most of them are made of metal, and metallic things make excellent weapons.  Sure, I agree that melting a wedding ring into a bullet would probably kill the love (though it evidently doesn't hurt the hereditariness of silver), so just propel it with magic.  This isn't rocket science (...but it could be!)  Anyway, I grant that roses might take some doing (I wonder if True Love dissolves in liquid nitrogen...), but, where there's a wizard, there's a way.

On "Knowledge:"

The "which House are you" WCV stranger is hardly the norm.  It's not like the White Court hides who they are; they're nobility.  They're protected by the Accords.  The one's we've met go by their House surnames.  Sure, if you meet one in an alley in a strange city, you might not know.  But an established House of the White Court is not going to be incognito, because they're too busy being schemers and politickers nonpareil.  Just watch whether their dinner is sighing, screaming, seething or sobbing, and you're set.  This isn't necessarily easy, or it would be a +2.  But neither does it compare with requiring intimate knowledge of the unique circumstances and two-millenia backstory of an unprecedented, secretive and awesomely powerful semi-demigod.

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DFRPG / Re: Question on Evocation & Elements?
« on: May 01, 2011, 12:18:43 AM »
I personally like using fire for combat maneuvers, heating up an enemies weapon to red hot, or just flat melting them works great, suddenly you don't need to deal with their Guns, or Weapons skill, now all you need to deal with is coming up with a way to deal with Fists, and your set. 

Fists are flammable too!

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DFRPG / Re: +0 Catch for WCVs?
« on: May 01, 2011, 12:11:07 AM »
Edit: A last final bit. If the system is getting in the way of your fun or the story then screw what the book says. If you (and your table) want the WCV catch to be worth +2 then make it worth +2. However really make it worth +2. Don't just give someone the refresh bonus and then forget all about the catch. Make it that much more important to the game.

Oh -- I should be more clear:  We've already made the change, and a few others, mostly to balance our Sorceress and WCVirgin (who, given her extra refresh in Incite Emotion upgrades and our chronicle's focus on social/political drama, makes her almost as narratively powerful as a full WCV).  I'm just arguing that the rules as written can't possibly result in a +0 catch for a WCV, requiring some fudging. 

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DFRPG / Re: +0 Catch for WCVs?
« on: May 01, 2011, 12:03:31 AM »
THIS:

At the end of the day, the Catch is as much a reflection of narrative impact as anything else. And the WCV Catch just doesn't come up that much, and that's alright. The best that tends to happen is that True Love ends up being the equivalent of a landmine. For Thomas, it has some serious life impacts, but those are story effects: weaponizing True Love in a combat situation just is not happening in the source materials, and we have to do some serious stretching to try to weaponize it in our own games.

... should have been included, verbatim, somewhere in the Catch section of YW185.  I completely agree; the Catch's value should track its narrative significance, since that defines its value to the character's interests in the story.  The problem is that the system for calculating the Catch value is flawed, in that it's too formulaic and misses the whole "narrative impact" angle; this is then obscured by fudging Catch values for the White Court without explanation, which irks me just a bit (... especially after creating an NPC and working out the Catch value yourself, to find it's inexplicably inconsistent with the template... so, maybe a misprint... better check the intertubes... *three hours later*...).

Okay, anyone who's tired of reading about this can stop here; I've made my non-argumentative points :)

Onward: Gotta disagree with the "rules and novels are in harmony" crowd.  Under "Access," there have to be more symbols and trappings of True Love in any one city, town or village than all the Swords of the Cross in the world.  It's the essence of conflict and story, and the Dresdenverse would be a boring and desolate place without it.  Besides, hasn't True Love turned up in relatively benign places in the books? (I vaguely recall a, er... something... being used defensively to burn a Raith, uh... at some point... between books, um ... 3 and ... 10?)  And if the White Court switched places with the Red, I guarantee you the White Council would have figured out a way to weaponize True Love.  As for "Knowledge," I know that we see this through the lens of Harry and his White Court brother, which makes the White Court a little more central than the norm.  But even taking that into account, the White Court is inarguably a Big Player, whatever their size.  There's no way this universal and poetic weakness has not made the rounds, filtering down through the ranks of the White Council and others.  This is not "personal knowledge required."  Jade Court Catch?  Sure.  White Court Catch?  No.  And even if I'm wrong about one of "Access" or "Knowledge", you still can't get "+0" out of the rules.  Ergo, my confusion and irritation are justified, with insurance.  QED.

I hereby declare myself the victor of a forum debate.  This has never happened before: Accordingly, I further declare myself the victor of the Internet.

Fulfillment at last.

*bows*

;)

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DFRPG / Re: +0 Catch for WCVs?
« on: April 30, 2011, 09:16:22 PM »
Hmm. Apologies for resurrecting an old debate (I seem to do that a lot with the WCVs).  But wherever the line has been drawn in the sand, I think we can agree that the Catch rules do not comport with the Catch value given for WCVs.  (As for weaponizing the Catch:  Grapeshot + Taj Mahal pebbles = Pure. Awesome.)

And a +0 Catch... that's harsh.  That's "Sword of the Cross that no one knows about" harsh.  No, I'm squarely in the "WCV catch = +2" camp.

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DFRPG / Re: Question on Evocation & Elements?
« on: April 30, 2011, 09:13:09 PM »
... wouldn't it detract from the aspect nature of the game, unless your character had some twin element aspect thing?

You're right, we made it work through one of her aspects: "Ignite the Rain."  That, plus me hewing a little more strictly to elemental definitions, encourages her to combine elements.  It's part of her larger character concept (she's one of the few practitioners who can do this sort of thing), so it actually plays well with her aspects.

My only problem with the element system in evocation is that spirit is plain better, it can do pretty much everything all the other elements can do and it also has a large number of tricks all to itself (veils, mind-hack, illusions etc) and fire is pretty much the weakest of the elements because it can't really block bullets and physical force.

I agree with you about Spirit -- I think it needs to be split up, and some of its powers given to the other elements.  Light could be handed off to Fire (along with veils and illusions) for a subtler side of "Fuego!", and kinetic force could be given to Air (if it weren't such a big part of the novels).  In my opinion, Spirit should have no direct attack abilities (against physical beings, at least).  Mental, sure.  Against ghosts/spirits, sure.  But if all you know is Spirit and you want to hurt someone, then drag them into the Nevernever with you where Spirit reigns supreme.

As for fire being weak, I think it has less to do with what Fire can't do, and more to do with the fact that all of the other elements have been deemed to be just as good as Fire at dealing damage.  Blowing things up is Fire's domain, period.  This can be fixed with aspects:  Your average free-taggable scene/maneuver aspect will apply to a fire spell over most other elements (think of all the examples in the books: "crates" burn, "gas mains" explode, "candle-light" implies fire, most people wear "clothes" that burn, etc... air/earth/water don't get as many, just as a practical matter).  Fire is the go-to element for the ultra-attack where you pile on a bunch of temporary aspects and tag them all at once.

As for stopping bullets, fire can deflect them with mini-explosions (see the climactic scene in Firestarter; Drew Barrymore could evoke some serious Fire as a kid, and deflected bullets with it).  As for physical force, obviously this depends on context, but use fire's fear/pain effects to ward off (i.e. block) physical attacks, deflect them like bullets, destroy the incoming physical force, etc.  If you mean spirit-force, then yeah, that's trickier.  I can't remember exactly how Harry
(click to show/hide)
, but didn't that have something to do with spirit-meeting-fire?  You could probably flip that around to justify a fire-block against spirit force, but in fairness, Fire is not a stopping element and should be weakest at defense.

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DFRPG / +0 Catch for WCVs?
« on: April 30, 2011, 08:52:09 PM »
Could someone please help me understand why WCVs get a +0 Catch?  By my math, it should be at least +2.  Following the first three bullets on YW185:

  • [+0] Focused vs. General -- Protects against all physical attacks, so no +2 bonus here.
  • [+1] Access to Catch -- Even a +1 is pretty cynical, implying that "True Love" is comparable to True Magic (something "only a rare class of people in the world have").  It's certainly not comparable to a Sword of the Cross, something "only one or two people in the world have access to or could produce."
  • [+1] Knowledge of Catch -- At the very least, "access to specific research material that could be restricted (like a wizard's library)" should turn up the general "WCVs are hurt by the opposite of their flavor-of-choice."  This is hardly a secret on the same level as Nicodemus' noose.

Black Court Vampires add up to +4 by the same math.  (The examples given at OW75 give them a Catch of +3, but only because their Toughness powers top out at -4 and you can't Catch yourself to lower than -1.  The same argument doesn't fly with the WCVs, though, as the Raiths starting at OW207 still have +0 Catches.)

Lastly, WCVs are mechanically outshone by evokers and the faithful.  I think they could use a little bump in refresh provided by upping the value of their Catch.

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DFRPG / Re: Question on Evocation & Elements?
« on: April 30, 2011, 08:07:21 PM »
I think the element system is both too flexible and not flexible enough.

It's too flexible in that it emphasizes that every element can do everything.  That robs elements of their flavor, not to mention being a major contributor to the overwhelming overkill that is Evocation (i.e. the "restriction" to "only" three elements is no restriction at all).  It's an alternative to filling pages upon pages with details on what each element can do, but not the only alternative:  A Tarot-like treatment, with each element getting a set of adjectives that behave much like aspects, would have worked nicely and taken up just as much space. (Yeah, it's sort of there already, but diluted by all the "every element can do everything" talk.)

It's not flexible enough in that it strictly compartmentalizes which element you're using:  You are either doing a Spirit Evocation, OR an Earth Evocation, but never a Spirit/Earth Evocation.  We decided to try weaving elements together, like in The Wheel of Time.  It works amazingly well and I highly recommend it.  Our Spirit/Fire/Water Sorceress has the aspect "Ignite The Rain", which she invokes when casting spells with more than one element.  Her go-to Fire/Water rote ("Ignaqua!") splits a double-helix of steam and burning kerosene against two opponents.  Way cooler than two fireballs, and does exactly the same thing.

Taking all of the above into account, I'm probably a bit more strict than most groups in what each individual element can do on its own (e.g. I would answer OP's question with "Spirit for a ghostly, transient rock; Spirit+Earth for something more real/permanent; but not Earth alone").  But restrictions breed creativity, and this is especially true with weaving multiple elements together.  Five elements makes ten two-element pairs, ten trips, five quads (strange stuff here), and one medley of all five Elements that I'd probably require for things like evoking exotic states of matter or messing with the fundamental properties of magic.  The more complex the effect, the more Elements you can pile on.  Mucking about with life could arguably require all five, or less depending on what you want to do (Fire[purity] + Water[blood] + Subtle-Spirit[soul] to heal, adding Earth[body] and maybe even Air[breath] to create life).  Ditto on things like nuclear radiation (Fire[heat] + Spirit[light] + Earth[atoms]) or time (Earth[gravity warps space-time] + Air[movement] + Water[reverse entropy]).

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DFRPG / Grouping/Categorizing Skills
« on: April 06, 2011, 02:45:48 PM »
For new players just setting out to design their first characters, 25 skills is a lot to take in (especially considering all of the trappings associated with them).  I’ve been working on a way to make the available skills a little easier to grok.

I’ve noticed is that skills tend to group by triplets quite easily.  So, with a few repetitions, I drew up this rough categorization of triplets covering all 25 skills.  I am sure I’ve overlooked several things, so please offer your comments – it will greatly help my understanding of how the skills can be used, and in turn help my players.  If others find this useful, I will keep this first post updated with any changes.

Brute Physical: Athletics, Endurance, Might
Agile Physical: Athletics, Driving, Stealth
Physical Attacks: Fists, Guns, Weapons
Physical Defense: Athletics, Fists, Weapons

Social Attacks: Deceit, Intimidation, Rapport
Social Defense: Discipline, Empathy, Rapport

Stress Tracks: Conviction, Endurance, Presence

Magic Know-How:  Conviction, Discipline, Lore
Mundane Knowledge Gathering: Contacts, Investigation, Scholarship
Perception: Alertness, Empathy, Lore

Acquisitions: Contacts, Craftsmanship, Resources
Covert Ops: Burglary, Deceit, Stealth
Character-Defining*: Performance, Presence, Survival

* As is always the case with brute-force categorizations like the above, this is my “miscellaneous” category.  Originally containing only Performance and Survival, I noticed both of those skills seemed like they’d go largely ignored except by characters whose concepts strongly suggested them.  Presence only seemed to fit that bill when I reread its description -- Presence is a lot narrower than I initially thought, more of a "leadership" skill than a social skill, so I added it here to emphasize that (i.e. players might be disappointed if they took Presence only to discover they really meant to take Rapport).

So, there we have it.  Do any of those triplets grate on you as missing something, having fuzzy edges, or having one skill too few/too many?  On the last point, I was considering adding Presence to Social Attacks, but YW215 (directly under the picture of Harry demonstrating that Chivalry Is Not Dead, Dammit) suggests otherwise: the main text mentions the three “main” social attack skills as above.  And, though the marginalia to the right argues against using Discipline as a social defense like I've done, it does strike me as the go-to defense for your garden-variety Intimidation attack.

Thanks in advance for your input!

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DFRPG Resource Collection / Re: List Compiling: Consequences
« on: March 17, 2011, 03:13:19 PM »
(I got the necro'ing warning on this, but honestly, compiling a consequences list is a good thing to necro!)

Severe Mental: Time In Heaven Taught Me Earth Is Hell
Extreme Mental*:  Lost-My-Soul Sociopath; Locked-In Syndrome

* on PCs, these truly harsh ones are meant as hooks for adventures to trigger "recovery", e.g., an Inception-style trek through an ally's dream to rescue him from Locked-In Syndome
** bonus points for figuring out which TV shows I got two of these from ;)
 
Extreme Physical:  Body-Switch; Withered To Old Age; Imperfect "Resurrection"; Irradiated

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DFRPG / Re: Invoking Aspects On Others: The "Interaction" Requirement
« on: March 17, 2011, 02:50:47 PM »
Ack, I feel bad for posting and then not checking back for several days -- thank you all for you help, I think I've got this down in that it works pretty intuitively, once the more stringently-written interaction requirement is relaxed.

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DFRPG / Re: Cards: Our World: Who's Who
« on: March 17, 2011, 02:43:43 PM »
Oh my yes, THAT is how I pictured Thomas Raith :D  Thanks for the adaptation!

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DFRPG / Re: Questions about how some things work
« on: March 14, 2011, 09:35:02 PM »
I've got an idea to bring Kincaid and his Resources in line, but you've got a big group and it requires a bit of focus on him for awhile.  So you may want to spread the following out over a series of unrelated scenarios, to keep your players from getting bored.

In dealing with One-Man-Army, I think you're too focused on the rules, when you forget that you hold the whole freaking world in the palm of your hands (literally, if you write your scenario notes in a palm-sized notebook).  Be fair, but firm.  The things he's doing CANNOT be done without difficulty, without consequence, but those consequences should be tense, interesting and fun.

So let's shake things up. 

Question: What's the FBI/NSA/ATF/CIA going to think when they hear of a guy running around buying up depleted uranium shells by the bushel and ordering weekly deliveries of military-grade body armor?  Time to answer that, while blindsiding the hell out of all your players at the same time. (What FUN we GMs get to have!)

Step One: Have a terrorist attack happen nearby, completely removed from whatever story you're running.  Mention it a few times, whenever you're in a scene with CNN playing in the background.  Throw in some details that wouldn't be out of place in a real-world act of terrorism, but that are actually red herrings designed to make your players think there's "just another monster" behind this one.  Get them excited about a potential showdown waiting in the wings.

Step Two: One-Man-Army hears an odd click on his phone the next time he uses it.  He notices the same car has been parked outside his house each night (it hustles away if he approaches; cops intercede if he pursues).  Make him think the government is watching him.  Try to get him super-paranoid about being a suspect in the terrorist investigation, but try to keep him away from any "direct" confrontations, as that will make Step Three a mite difficult. 

Step Three: Now, run a scenario involving a paranoid-schizophrenic who raves about vague things like "watchers in the wings" and "listeners on the line".  At some point, make a production of revealing that the schizophrenic was in the bar when the coin was passed around: This could be the reveal that anyone who touches the coin, gets Tarsiel's shadow.  It could wake up simultaneously in all their minds, somewhere along the way.  The point of all this is to get One-Man-Army to "see through" your "cleverly constructed" mystery, to make him doubly-certain that this is what it's all about: "The car, the clicks, they aren't real!  Of course, it's been Tarsiel this whole time! Well, I'm stronger than that nut in the bar! Screw you, Tarsiel, I'm not falling for it!"

Step Four: Once One-Man-Army is merrily on his way back to being his old self, convinced that the constant watchers and clicks and cars are Tarsiel's influence, he'll soon start requisitioning more equipment (and if he doesn't, well, problem solved!).  Don't change your tone on this; be as reluctant as always, but eventually give in.  It's Christmas in Kandahar, hurray!

Then he gets a phone call.

It's his <insert family/friend>.  The FBI has been asking questions.  There's a knock at the door, while he's still on the phone. (Why? Why else? FUN!) It's an FBI agent.  And at such an inopportune time, too, what with the plutonium warhead on the coffee table and a Blackhawk helicopter in the garage.  Practice your aggressive, pointed questions beforehand, and lean HARD on social compels to trip him up.  Make him feel like the whole weight of the US government is about to rain holy hell on his head, Waco-style, if they find a hint of contraband anywhere near him.  It dawns on him: This is the real fight, the real challenge, and it's one that, despite all of his easy-earned weaponry, he's hopelessly ill-equipped to fight (what sweet, sweet irony).  It wasn't Tarsiel at all!  In fact, Tarsiel is taunting him about this, engaging in a simultaneous mental contest, trying to trip him up in his social contest with the FBI Agent; after all, if he's caught, who else will be able to get him out of federal custody?  You could even give Tarsiel's shadow and/or the FBI agent to other players to roleplay (I do this with a "How To Host A Murder"-style character card, detailing motivations, what the NPC knows, typical reactions and the like).

If you're feeling really artful, slap down a scene aspect: "JUST BECAUSE I'M PARANOID DOESN'T MEAN THEY AREN'T REALLY AFTER ME!"  If you're feeling REALLY artful, make this a direct quote of something the schizophrenic said, or painted on the walls in blood as he committed suicide (you want it to stick in their minds), way back before they had any idea of its significance.

If this doesn't make One-Man-Army more careful about both the Fallen AND requisitioning stray nukes, your next step is to do exactly what you promised: Rain the entire might of the US government down on his head, and let the cards fall as they may.  He did, after all, ask for it!

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DFRPG / Re: Questions about how some things work
« on: March 14, 2011, 07:43:24 PM »
I too used to have issues with what I started calling the "hollow aspects" problem, where an aspect could say anything and it wouldn't have an effect unless someone invoked or compelled it. I got past this by remembering how stories work.  (That's not meant to sound patronizing; it's seriously how I did it.)  Almost anything can be explained in the narration.

Imagine Harry Dresden being struck blind in a story: one of the worst things that can happen to you in a fight.  He takes "Blindness" as consequence.  Now, something bad would happen to enforce the disadvantage -- that's the NPC's free tag, and the GM would be criminal not to use it.

But after that, you'd probably find that the "Blindness" aspect didn't have as much of an effect as you might have expected.  He may have taken a few soft hits, been spun around a few times, frantically and tensely sought his bearings -- but all this is narration, with no game effect (even the soft hits; nothing says the enemies can't touch you outside of a successful attack roll; they just can't inflict stress).  But, when push comes to shove (i.e. a roll hits the table), that's when, ahem, "fate" kicks in:  He hears a foot fall at the last moment and dodges just in time (getting his full defense roll) and swings around for a counterattack (getting his full attack roll).  And that's assuming the aspect stays "hollow", with no NPCs spending fate points.

Taking your example: With 'Bruised Ribs', 'Bullet Wounds' and a 'Shattered Leg', you've used consequences to make your opposition a formidable and tenacious beast.  Without spending Fate points, those aspects are "hollow" and that animal remains able to act normally, mechanically-speaking.  It's up to you as GM to determine whether this makes sense or not.  I think it does (his rage overcomes his pain and he still has three legs to walk on).  But, if you'd instead given that dog "Shattered Hip" as a consequence, then yeah, it wouldn't make any sense for him to maintain pursuit, and you should compel that dog's aspect (giving him a fate point) to prevent it. 

Your players should be on the ball here, too, reminding you every chance they get about potential compels.  It's up to you to decide whether they're compelling the dog, costing them a fate point (this is how I'd rule it for "Shattered Leg"), OR if they're just reminding you of a compel you'd have done anyway had you thought of it first (as I'd rule for "Shattered Hip").  It's important to distinguish between the two, because you don't want your players to be afraid to suggest worthy compels -- you have a lot to keep track of and need all the help you can get!

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DFRPG / Invoking Aspects On Others: The "Interaction" Requirement
« on: March 14, 2011, 07:10:24 PM »
To invoke an aspect on yourself, you need to explain how that aspect is relevant.  Clear as clear can be.

When invoking aspects on others (whether characters or scenes/zones/locations/cities/etc), the rules apply two additional requirements: Interaction and Access.  They emphasize these two requirements several times, so clearly they intend for them to be real, additional requirements to the standard rule for invoking aspects on yourself. 

The latter one, Access, seems to mean only that your character must have either created it through a maneuver/declaration/consequence, or discovered it through a guess/assessment (i.e. "your character" must have access to (knowledge of) that aspect, whatever your player happens to know).

It's the Interaction requirement that I don't get, because it seems either flatly contradictory, or completely redundant given the need to explain relevancy already.  The book attempts to illustrate these two requirements using "Ill-Met By Candlelight" (such a great aspect), presenting three examples:

  • Stealth: Candles are dim, so sneaking is easy.
  • Setting Things On Fire: Candles. Fire. 2+2=4.
  • Triggering Unfortunate Encounters: "Ill met, indeed!" is the only guidance we get here.

Now, the first two I understand: You sneak through shadows, or tip over candles -- Interaction.  But it's the third one, and countless other similar examples of Invoking for Effect, that show no interaction whatsoever.  How does one satisfy the interaction requirement while Invoking for Effect on the third example, triggering some unfortunate encounter?  Does it work only if he calls someone on his cellphone, or otherwise "interacts" with the unfortunate encounter in some way?  I saw a combat example in which someone Invoked a villain's "Crushed Ribcage" consequence from across the room to make him stumble during his escape; no interaction there, either.  Ditto on invoking "Building on Fire" to make a ceiling collapse and block an exit -- I can't even imagine how you'd interact with that aspect.

So, what is this "Interaction" requirement, and what does it require?

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