Saying that Murphy is the last true blue mortal on the team is a good point. However, her getting so badly wounded by Nic that she'll never recover 100% is also a point where you got to wonder what her future role as "the normal" is going to be in the series. It's fully possible that she'll transition into another role, but given how much her identity has been to be this tough woman, I bet it would trigger even more of an identity crisis than she already had after having to leave the CPD.
I'm conflicted...
On one hand, the stories are journeying too far into the deep end of magical society for a simple mortal to hold their own. We can argue about Valmont's "It's how smart you are" remark all we want. But... well, there's a certain point where a mortal needs to resort to remote controlled weaponry, or heavy vehicles instead of a few guns and gadgets.
I don't see Valkyrie in Murphy's future. WoJ also said that Murphy wouldn't get any power ups so I think it's fair to say she'll probably stay vanilla human. However, I don't think there's no place for her by staying that way, especially since she's repeatedly shown her abilities to adapt throughout the series. Even in GS, a large part of what she was doing there was managing people and organizing - those are pretty essential skills.
I don't see Valkyrie in Murphy's future. WoJ also said that Murphy wouldn't get any power ups so I think it's fair to say she'll probably stay vanilla human. However, I don't think there's no place for her by staying that way, especially since she's repeatedly shown her abilities to adapt throughout the series. Even in GS, a large part of what she was doing there was managing people and organizing - those are pretty essential skills.
I've been thinking about Harry's future, and he wont make the Senior Council during the series.
So, two years ago Jim hinted on Twitter that he was writing Murphy's funeral.Murphy's dead. She dies tragically. More than that, all I really wanna theorize on this one at this point, Is when am I going to get to read this great story I see coming lol.
It could have been a joke, but if Murphy really dies in Peace Talk, I would postulate that the most likely reason is to raise her as a Valkyrie. It seems to soon to end her and Harry's fledgling relationship, but, IMO, there are just too many things which would fall into place to not make this at least a very likely proposition:
- It solves the aging issue for her relationship with Harry
- It gives her a new purpose in life, after losing her old one, when she left Chicago police
- There has been foreshadowing for it, her training with the Einherjar and getting close with Odin's organization
- It is a source of future conflict, when her working for Odin comes into conflict with something Harry is doing
Maybe this is a bit too obvious, though. A lot of people thought that Karrin would be the next wielder for one of the swords and Jim trolled us in that regard. What do you guys think?
I'm kind of with Mira, except for one thing.
Murphy is a Catholic.
Now, there is nothing to prevent her being one of the chosen, but her residing in Valhalla in her afterlife would cause a conflict with TWG (I'd think).
Then again, we have seen where one's actions prepare one for things that are not what you'd think (cough-cough Winter lady mantle). So, it's entirely possible that Karrin's actions have prepared her for the Enherjerin (however you spell it.)
I've been thinking about Harry's future, and he wont make the Senior Council during the series. After, who knows, but not during. He's just too young. Sure, they could change the way they pick the SC, but I doubt that's going to happen.
Now, that's not to say he won't be A leader of the council by the time the BAT rolls around. I think he'll have the Blackstaff by then, and that'll be his major role in the council.
I meant to say that she could go to Valhalla because she is a warrior, Gard would say that. She could also go straight through the door to Judgement, as you say she has that kind of faith... But I think peace and happiness for her would be joining her father and working for Uriel.
My personal WAG? Once everything is set and done, the BAT is survived etc. There is no White Council anymore. There is the Paranet and its highest position is the Dresden.
I think that in the end days of the final trilogy, Harry will rally the shattered and broken White Council to action against the outsiders and do so as the new Merlin -- as the current Merlin would be dead along with most/all of the senior council. It is dramatic - which the series is. It is also symmetry - I think the BC has worked from day 1 to shatter the White council so they can rebuild it into a new image. That Harry is the one to step up and define that new image is karma at its best.
Murphy may take a different role -- that of advisor and chief of staff for Dresden. He already has a track record of going to Murphy for advice and Murphy already has a track record of organizing the Paranet.
I can totally see Murphy being lost (career wise) in Peace Talks and leaving Peace Talks with new direction -- as the warleader of Harry's forces. She will be the one that coordinates the paranet, works closely with Billy, leverages the wee folk, and coordinates with SI, manages alliances with other powers. After all, she has already been doing this while Harry has been dead. Harry is still going to be there at the decision points, but the groundwork behind these decisions can now be delegated to Murphy.
That is actually not peace and happiness, as was noted in Ghost Story. Purgatory (or whatever you want to call the in-between) is for people who can't pass on, because they are not at peace with their fate.
It would, in the sense she would be working with her beloved father, and she'd be doing meaningful work. It also would be, if it was her choice to do so. Remember Harry had that choice at the end of Ghost Story, he chose to move on and face what was to come..
Well, I guess it is a matter of definition. If she feels fulfilled staying in-between, that'd be good enough for her, I guess. Then again, she's devoutly catholic and she also would feel compelled to move on.
Anyway, I still believe that she probably would not stay dead if the funeral thing is for real and not a joke. And being transformed into a valkyrie seems the most probable option.
I think it's completely possible, even likely, that later in life Harry will become the leader of the Council. But I can't picture a Wizard as young as he is being Merlin within the time span of the series. Maybe he might lead the Council very unofficially and very temporarily, in some freakish emergency, but he's not even freaking 100 yet. From the Council POV, he's a barely out of 'new recruit' status.
One of the biggest flaws of the Star Trek movie reboot is that in the first one, Cadet Kirk gets promoted to Captain and put in command of the most important ship in the fleet, right out of the Academy. That threw a lot of people's WSOD, and for good reason. I would have the same sort of reaction if Harry became the Merlin within the time-span of the series.
That is actually not peace and happiness, as was noted in Ghost Story. Purgatory (or whatever you want to call the in-between) is for people who can't pass on, because they are not at peace with their fate.
No, I expect Murphy's role to be significant, but not on the front lines. She doesn't need to be fighting at Harry's side; he's done the Battle Couple thing with her, Susan, and Luccio often enough that it doesn't bring anything new to the table. And, as I've said in way too many threads already, I fully expect her to be involved with Tilly forming an FBI version of SI in Chicago, as Tilly's liaison with the supernatural community.
Saying that Murphy is the last true blue mortal on the team is a good point. However, her getting so badly wounded by Nic that she'll never recover 100% is also a point where you got to wonder what her future role as "the normal" is going to be in the series. It's fully possible that she'll transition into another role, but given how much her identity has been to be this tough woman, I bet it would trigger even more of an identity crisis than she already had after having to leave the CPD.This is the key point I don't see discussed all that much. The blow to Murphy at the end of Skin Game was profound, and has come on top of a long series of blows. As others have noted, she can't hang... not on the physical level that she's spent so much time training for. And now she's physically broken, and has taken a huge guilt hit by being the catalyst that destroyed one of the holy swords. Yes, it got remade almost immediately, but it's human nature to feel a huge sense of personal failure for the first event. Physically broken, morally broken, all of her lifelong personality anchors ripped away. When I finished Skin Game I thought for sure she was being set up to be tempted by a Coin, given how bad of a place she was going to be in.
Folks, the bottom line is that Jim can't keep Harry happy for long. If he's finally started up a relationship with Murph, then she can't be long for this world.Mwahahaha! Break it down farther, just go farther!
I actually really, REALLY like this Valkyrie (or at least einherjar) theory. It's the kind of foreshadowing that fits Jim. Oddly, I don't think that her Catholicism would be a barrier, mostly because we've slowly been seeing her faith being worn down. Dresden's Sight of her in White Night, for example, is far more tattered than in GP, and she's had the world ripped away from her several times. She may not realize it yet, but I think that Dresden's death and the aftermath fundamentally changed her - no longer capable of welding the Sword, but still believing she could.
To be honest, in this "God is like three blind men describing an elephant" world, I think that Dresden is by far more the follower of TWG than Karrin is. And that's my two cents, controversial as it may be.
This is the key point I don't see discussed all that much. The blow to Murphy at the end of Skin Game was profound, and has come on top of a long series of blows. As others have noted, she can't hang... not on the physical level that she's spent so much time training for. And now she's physically broken, and has taken a huge guilt hit by being the catalyst that destroyed one of the holy swords. Yes, it got remade almost immediately, but it's human nature to feel a huge sense of personal failure for the first event. Physically broken, morally broken, all of her lifelong personality anchors ripped away. When I finished Skin Game I thought for sure she was being set up to be tempted by a Coin, given how bad of a place she was going to be in.
Sure, she can do all of these roles that folks are postulating... but look at it from the point of view of her character. What can she do from the depths of the despair that's *got* to be crushing in on her after the events of SG? JB can write this sooo many ways...
In the normal course of events, you are absolutely right. Harry would need to be several hundred years old before he could ever be a senior council member, much less the Merlin. But the rules change in a major crisis (political or survival). Very dramatic changes can occur in how people are governed in a very short period of time. If the leadership if the white council is disgraced and/or dead, and the white council as a whole faces the very real possibility of eminent destruction, then very dramatic changes in leadership are very possible.
In that scenario, Harry Dresden can be a very attractive leader. It was Harry to revealed the corruption of members of the senior council (speculating). It was Harry who had the power to destroy the Red Court and save the White council. Harry has close alliances with several powerful supernatural nations. It was Harry who even the Senior Council and old Merlin feared. It was Harry who people whisper was born to fight the outsiders. It was Harry who is the poster child for the younger wizards -- who seems able to navigate the modern world with ease. It was Harry who founded the Paranet to save wizards. It was Harry whose deeds are legend within the White Council. The old leaders have failed. People are scared. It is quite possible that Harry gets enough support to take the position, especially if the other candidates are uninspiring or proven to be traitors and Harry gets endorsed by a few old and respected wizards like Gatekeeper.
Yes there is no way he would win against McCoy or Luccio, but he could win against noticeably less impressive candidates. It may not even be close.
Maybe, by the end of the series, the WC is restructured to give leadership roles based more on merit and ability and less on age and influence. Yet, I don't see Harry as the face of the organization like the Merlin; more like the scary big dog called Blackstaff.
Folks, the bottom line is that Jim can't keep Harry happy for long. If he's finally started up a relationship with Murph, then she can't be long for this world.
I can't shake the sense that the time for a Harry/Karrin romance, if there was going to be one, was probably about ten books ago. Harry was personality-wise better suited to Karrin ten years ago than he is now, the time factor was not quite so bad, Harry's life was more on the same scale of action as Karrin's.
This ^ I believe you've hit on the most important point, and I totally agree. Back in Proven Guilty when Harry asked her and she refused, though he was a wizard and her points for refusal that you went over were valid, it may still have worked for the very fact that Harry was very much an ordinary Joe.. He isn't any longer, Murphy understood the Harry of Proven Guilty, she no longer understands him. Murphy got the power/wizard aspect of Harry, but he still loved Coke and a Burger King, he was just a decent ordinary guy.. Basically he still is that decent guy, but Harry is the Winter Knight, Warden of Demonreach, a Warden of the White Council, a star child, custodian of the Holy Swords and now keeper of relics of vast power, he can never be the Harry she knew before Changes again. Reread those opening chapters of Skin Game, she voices her concern for that ordinary guy, but he doesn't exist anymore, he has priorities now that she cannot understand. He can no longer always be there for either her or his friends, he has other responsibilities now, and a lot is riding on how he handles them.
And I think this will be the very root of the Angst that Jim will write for Harry.Wasn't there a WoJ about the Librarians thinking all magic is evil with a capital 'E' and as a result, they were partially behind Murph's career crashing and burning because of her friendship with Dresden? I unfortunately don't have the time to look up if my memory is accurate or not(I have a road trip in two hours), so I shall politely invoke the quote gods and request: Could you please find it for me, oh mighty and powerful lords of the obscure quotes? Masters of the arcane confirmations by Jim! Most devoted fans of the Butcher's work! Your humble servant begs your aid, and provides a shameless bribe in the form of internet cookies!
I think they'll be together for awhile, but other stuff will get in the way, and eventually Murph will either leave or be taken (like by the Librarians).
Wasn't there a WoJ about the Librarians thinking all magic is evil with a capital 'E' and as a result, they were partially behind Murph's career crashing and burning because of her friendship with Dresden? I unfortunately don't have the time to look up if my memory is accurate or not(I have a road trip in two hours), so I shall politely invoke the quote gods and request: Could you please find it for me, oh mighty and powerful lords of the obscure quotes? Masters of the arcane confirmations by Jim! Most devoted fans of the Butcher's work! Your humble servant begs your aid, and provides a shameless bribe in the form of internet cookies!
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Which would be worse for her if she is a devote Catholic as you say because she'd be an instrument of a pagan religion.
With whom she had no problems interacting (sparring and the like), so, yeah. Her religion is a complicated issue. I don't want to her to stay dead and out of the story, anyway, so I'm all for her going Valkyrie. If she really dies, that is.
Just to be clear, if she goes Valkyrie, she's then a chooser of the dead and she's likely out of the story doing her job elsewhere in the world.I think, she's just going to become more of what she already is... Bamf!
On the other hand, she could be chosen to be an Einherjar. Then she could continue to train with the other Einherjar in the BFS.
With whom she had no problems interacting (sparring and the like), so, yeah. Her religion is a complicated issue. I don't want to her to stay dead and out of the story, anyway, so I'm all for her going Valkyrie. If she really dies, that is.
Just to be clear, if she goes Valkyrie, she's then a chooser of the dead and she's likely out of the story doing her job elsewhere in the world.
This ^ I believe you've hit on the most important point, and I totally agree. Back in Proven Guilty when Harry asked her and she refused, though he was a wizard and her points for refusal that you went over were valid, it may still have worked for the very fact that Harry was very much an ordinary Joe.. He isn't any longer, Murphy understood the Harry of Proven Guilty, she no longer understands him. Murphy got the power/wizard aspect of Harry, but he still loved Coke and a Burger King, he was just a decent ordinary guy.. Basically he still is that decent guy, but Harry is the Winter Knight, Warden of Demonreach, a Warden of the White Council, a star child, custodian of the Holy Swords and now keeper of relics of vast power, he can never be the Harry she knew before Changes again.
I've been rereading the earlier books, and there's definitely a different 'feel' to the Harry/Karrin relationship back then. The idea of Harry and Karrin getting together feels totally believable, totally plausible, it feels like a natural development...when I reread Summer Knight, or Death Masks.
I think that period was the natural time window for an H/K romance. That time window runs through...oh, at least through Proven Guilty, maybe through White Night, but it was starting to close by then. Things were changing, Harry was changing, Karrin was changing, and their world was changing.
Back in that period, Harry was basically a magically-augmented P.I., and Karrin was a cop. Their world, or primary zone of action, was the city of Chicago. (In some ways, I still miss that.)
Things have changed since then.
I don't remember anything about librarians, and I thought I've seen all of Jim's Q&As and read all his short stories, aside from the Butters and the Wild West ones. I haven't read the stories in the DFRPG and hadn't read any of the graphic novels other than the first, so maybe that's where the reference is?
Murphy wants that old Harry back, and he isn't ever going to come back. She should understand that, she has seen and taken part in enough of Harry's world, but somehow she doesn't. I think the contrast between Harry's conversations with her verses his conversations with Michael in Skin Game says it all. Michael accepts the changes both in Harry and in his life, and he also trusts who Harry is in his core being. Murphy doesn't, that is at the crux of it I think, she plays lip service to trusting him, but her actions/words say different.. I don't think she realizes it yet though, she means well, but all her concern for Harry not being the way he used to be only put an almost unbearable amount of self doubt in Harry. That is not good, not for Harry given his tasks ahead. For me that is what is annoying these days about their relationship, her observations and advice for Harry is all based on how his life used to be.. It is kind of like a parent of an adult kid who cannot accept that kid is grown and living a different life now, I believe the phrase is, "You never used to act this way...."
Yeah, I disagree completely. Karrin has been one of the most accepting people about Harry's changes, together with Michael and Molly. I think you are reading your own feelings about Murphy into her actions.Yeah, more like she trusts him but also knows him and the world at large, how it's effecting him at any given point. She trusts, but doesn't wear blinders to him either.
Yeah, more like she trusts him but also knows him and the world at large, how it's effecting him at any given point. She trusts, but doesn't wear blinders to him either.
The thing is, though, that she's still not the Karrin we met back in the early books, and Harry is no longer the young punk of a Wizard, either. The romantic attraction was always there, and still is, but it no longer feels...well, the attraction feels natural but the idea of them acting on it no longer feels natural to me, not the way it comes across back around Death Masks. Back then, even when he was with Susan, the Murphy relationship felt more natural than the Rodriguez one.^^That,
Now, though...that sense of them together as a natural development, at least for me, is gone. I still feel in in reread of the older books, but by the time of Cold Days and Skin Game, the idea produces more of an 'It's Too Late', reaction.
Maybe Peace Talks will change my reaction, we'll have to wait and see.
But I suspect that JB will have to do something about Karrin soon, if she's still going to play a major role in unfolding story. I suspect he'll find it necessary even if he doesn't plan it right now, simply because of the demands of the story.
Michael accepts the changes both in Harry and in his life, and he also trusts who Harry is in his core being. Murphy doesn't, that is at the crux of it I think, she plays lip service to trusting him, but her actions/words say different..Is a completely different topic than that^
I prefer to have Murphy take an exit but come back disguised as something else. Something mabish via time shenanigans.
Murphy at arctic tor in pg, and on demonreach in cold days both put her centered at pretty significant sidhe queen affairs. That is not to mention that she rode with the wild hunt near the leadership of it. She also has increasing links to vadderung via training with einhejaren. We now know he, as kringle, is of winter. I wonder if another vessel is being readied in case of some peculiar happenstance.
I believe there was some who about queen succession rules, etc. And how Molly was able to fit into them. The jist I got is there are the rules or at least expected rules until jim changes them.
Not to be too ominous or paranoid, but… are you so sure that Murphy is still Murphy right now?
Yeah, I disagree completely. Karrin has been one of the most accepting people about Harry's changes, together with Michael and Molly. I think you are reading your own feelings about Murphy into her actions
Not to be too ominous or paranoid, but… are you so sure that Murphy is still Murphy right now?I don't think she is, though in the normal PTSD human sense. To reiterate: She trained in physical combat for years with Odin's crowd (not going to try and spell it without a reference at hand ;-)) and came up short. She focused her whole life on being an cop and had that taken from her. She tried to take the moral high ground in taking possession of one of the Holy Swords and saw it broken to bits on her actions. She may have some permanent disability from this last fight.
I don't think she is, though in the normal PTSD human sense. To reiterate: She trained in physical combat for years with Odin's crowd (not going to try and spell it without a reference at hand ;-)) and came up short. She focused her whole life on being an cop and had that taken from her. She tried to take the moral high ground in taking possession of one of the Holy Swords and saw it broken to bits on her actions. She may have some permanent disability from this last fight.Just curious, what are you referring to here, Came Up Short how?
People don't just walk away whole and unchanged from shattering events like that. Everything she's based herself on has been brutally taken from her.
Has she really? No, there is distrust from Cold Days on...
There is much more acceptance and trust, though. Compare and contrast with Butters.
Yes and no, Butters was more frustrated than anything because children were disappearing. He was also listening to Bob who had ample reason not to trust anyone connected with the Winter Court.. I might add that there is little evidence that Murphy did much to change his mind in that year.. However once the shit hit the fan and Murphy was down, Butters swiftly came around and saw what an ass he had been... Oh and I might add one reason that incident took place is lack of trust in Harry on Murphy's part...That is simply not true.
I just can't shake off the feeling that someone in Dresden's crew is more than they seem - either infected by Nemesis, or holding a Coin, or even just a run-of-the-mill traitor. And pre-Ghost Story, Karrin obviously isn't addled, otherwise we couldn't get the short story Aftermath.
But after...
I dunno. She seems to be doing big, major things without seemingly intending to. Especially in Skin Game, where she didn't do a *thing* which helped Dresden. If not for Uriel's completely unanticipated intervention, she would have effectively sabotaged Dresden entirely - introduced Butters and given him the opportunity to get involved, destroyed a Sword, and lost Dresden the backup he needed. If Karrin was a traitor, whose #1 priority is keeping under cover, and #2 priority is to sabotage Dresden, this is exactly how she'd act.
Harry should listen more to his subconscious. Maybe when it gave him the dream about Karrin and Lasciel killing him, it wasn't ONLY warning about Lasciel.
That is simply not true.
It's entirely Butters' distrust of Dresden that creates the incident.
Butters the one who secretly put a tracking and listening device on Dresden.
Butters is the one who thought Dresden was going to turn on them.
Butters is the one who fled to the Swords.
Meanwhile, Murphy is only involved at all because she shows complete trust in Dresden. He comes to her and asks her to walk into Hades with him, surrounded by literal demons and monsters, then tells her that he can't tell her crucial parts of the plan, and she instantly and completely accepts that.
That is complete, unflinching trust.
There are problems with this, however, at least in reference to Karin being Nemfected. Cold Days and Cold Case dealt heavily with the Outsider forces, and provided excellent opportunities for backstabery. Some Nemesis agents/appendages even try their hand at it. But! On the island, in the final moments, we have Mab present. We have Harry in attendance... and we have a selection of team Dresden. Everyone is in position to take down multiple major players on the side of reality, Karin especially. But she, along with the others present, don't.Yeah, that's always been my biggest argument against Murphy being a traitor. As Harry's most trusted companion, she has had soooooooo many opportunities to completely screw over the side of reality. But every action she's taken has been to help Harry defend reality. In Cold Days alone, there are six or seven points where, through simple inaction, Murphy could've handed the game to the Outsiders and not even blown her cover.
Yeah, that's always been my biggest argument against Murphy being a traitor. As Harry's most trusted companion, she has had soooooooo many opportunities to completely screw over the side of reality. But every action she's taken has been to help Harry defend reality. In Cold Days alone, there are six or seven points where, through simple inaction, Murphy could've handed the game to the Outsiders and not even blown her cover.Only as an implicit traitor, though. not a subvert or simply 'influenced' badly at times.
That she didn't pretty much clears her entirely.
Only as an implicit traitor, though. not a subvert or simply 'influenced' badly at times.As a Nemesis-controlled agent overall Id say. Nemesis invested a metric f*ckton of energy and resources on that scheme, fought the Hunt and even fielded an actual Walker for it. All it would have take for Nemesis to Win the Day was for Murphy to Not Pull the Trigger at the end. Or even to simply Miss, as humans do. I have to think Nemesis would have played that card if it could have.
As a Nemesis-controlled agent overall Id say. Nemesis invested a metric f*ckton of energy and resources on that scheme, fought the Hunt and even fielded an actual Walker for it. All it would have take for Nemesis to Win the Day was for Murphy to Not Pull the Trigger at the end. Or even to simply Miss, as humans do. I have to think Nemesis would have played that card if it could have.Can N ever interfere with a love fueled action? Such things, in a complex web of metaphysics in the DF related to real world beliefs ect, ect. Shortened, Love is one of those higher 'thoughts' that of itself is almost a choice. I'd be willing to state that without an almost but by itself I could see some argument, but with faith and hope, less so. All three of those are choices from the core of our being. Choosing to love unconditionally or at personal sacrifice, choosing to have hope, choosing to have faith in pretty much anything. That's why those things are champions of freewill under the KotC. They aren't the direct result of stimulus, but how we ourselves choose to process that stimulus. As such, I don't think anyone can override those. Some proof in Lae trying to remove the memories surrounding Susan's love, but couldn't remove it itself(least not without a deal) As Michael said, key word in sword of faith is faith, so it's the power itself with the uhh.. power itself.
Can N ever interfere with a love fueled action? Such things, in a complex web of metaphysics in the DF related to real world beliefs ect, ect. Shortened, Love is one of those higher 'thoughts' that of itself is almost a choice. I'd be willing to state that without an almost but by itself I could see some argument, but with faith and hope, less so. All three of those are choices from the core of our being. Choosing to love unconditionally or at personal sacrifice, choosing to have hope, choosing to have faith in pretty much anything. That's why those things are champions of freewill under the KotC. They aren't the direct result of stimulus, but how we ourselves choose to process that stimulus. As such, I don't think anyone can override those. Some proof in Lae trying to remove the memories surrounding Susan's love, but couldn't remove it itself(least not without a deal) As Michael said, key word in sword of faith is faith, so it's the power itself with the uhh.. power itself.There short answer is that we dont know, we know almost nothing of Nemesis's capabilities or limitations. So far we only know that it can pass via Objects (Lea), via direct infection (Cat Sith), and that a subject needs to be willing to be cured by Mab. Besides that we've been told that Nemesis cannot infect Angels because Angels are too "absolute".
Wasn't there a WoJ about the Librarians thinking all magic is evil with a capital 'E' and as a result, they were partially behind Murph's career crashing and burning because of her friendship with Dresden? I unfortunately don't have the time to look up if my memory is accurate or not(I have a road trip in two hours), so I shall politely invoke the quote gods and request: Could you please find it for me, oh mighty and powerful lords of the obscure quotes? Masters of the arcane confirmations by Jim! Most devoted fans of the Butcher's work! Your humble servant begs your aid, and provides a shameless bribe in the form of internet cookies!
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It would make all kinds of thematic sense, Id say.That's my bag man yea :)
My biggest problem with the "someone must be a traitor" thing -- aside from literally everyone in Harry's inner circle having proven themselves time and again to be totally on his side -- is that the suggestion that someone could be a traitor comes from Lily, who got all her information from Maeve, who was an agent of Nemesis and therefore had every motivation to lie her frigid butt off and sow dissent among her enemies.
If there is a traitor among Harry's crew, it'd make a lot more sense for Maeve to get Lily to tell Dresden he's safe.
On the other hand, if there is not a traitor among Harry's crew, then telling him there is one is a great way to start putting wedges between people.
Mirrors my thoughts pretty well. I do think that there is a high probability of conflicting loyalties, but not outright betrayal. Thomas having to make bad choices during the course of the Oblivion War, Molly obviously having to fulfill her role as Winter Lady, Billy choosing his wife and daughter over Harry—that kind of thing.
The only one who doesn't really have a chance for any conflicting loyalty at all is Murphy. She's the least likely candidate to turn on Harry, at least now. Her family is (presumably) estranged and/or dead (I'm assuming that Jim's "Murphy's funeral" comment refers to her mother, and Karrin and her sister don't get along, especially after she married her ex-husband), her friends and allies on the force aren't doing much for her anymore (considering she has to ally herself with someone like Marcone rather than feed information directly to SI)... pretty much the only thing she has to hold on to is Harry and company. He's the one who brought her into all of the conflicts she participates in now, so it's not even as though she'd need to keep secrets from him, like Thomas does.
The only motivation she'd have to turn on him would be a feeling of inadequacy compelling her to seek a power-up that changes her personality, and I really, really doubt she'd do it willingly. Especially not after the mental invasion that she still has PTSD over.
I think all of that is beside the point here. If Nemesis can simply Replace an ally, possess them into a perfect infiltrator, their past or current motivations, and any past Trust, is inherently suspect. It's playing on the Red Scare Witchhunt Mindset: ANYONE can be(come) a traitor at any Time, which undermines the very concept of earned Trust.
And I think /That/ was the value to Nemesis via Maeve via Lily telling Harry about it all. She didnt finger anyone specific, and in particular didnt try to draw a specific line of "Your inner Circle is Safe" vs "Your Inner Circle is Suspect". She just described a situation where innately Trust cannot survive, planting a hell of a powerful Seed of Distrust.
It'd be like making Captain America a Hydra agent all along.
That's some wicked shit man...(click to show/hide)
Maybe it would be out of character for Captain America to suddenly turn, but Murph is no Captain America. She’s already made a lot of very questionable choices, and is in the position of trying to grab every straw she can in order to protect Chicago, her main driving goal. She’s already made the wrong choice for the right reasons at least twice since Harry’s return, and she isn’t the same person she was back in Changes. I’m afraid for her. I don’t think she has the same fortitude of will right now to be able to withstand temptation the way that Dresden did with the coin, and she’s extremely vulnerable.My point wasn't that Murphy was as incorruptible as Captain America is supposed to be and shared his character traits.
How do you feel about Murph from Ghost Story onward, with her working in Marcone’s organization, allying with the White Court, and trying to fight the darkness in a far more desperate situation than she’s ever been in before? Most of what you mention is pre-Ghost Story Murphy. Do you feel that she’s really the same person?Post Ghost Story, the offer from Monoc is almost certainly still there.
True, I don’t see her flat-out betraying and trying to kill Harry. But I can see her suddenly motivated to completely turn against his wishes and sabotage a mission all in a vain attempt to keep him safe. Oh, wait – that’s already happened.I honestly do not know to what you could be referring.
Nobody just suddenly starts dressing in black and cackling maniacally. The road to hell is a gentle, gradual slope, and I think that Karrin’s story has always been one of slow self-destruction. It’s started long before Changes, but everything afterward really kicked things into high gear. Dresden’s fear of what would happen to her if her shield was taken away seems to be happening. What’s book 20 going to look like?I don't see this at all. In Skin Game, she's the most psychologically together that we've seen her since Changes. She doesn't act like or at all appear to be someone who's on some kind of slippery slope to hell. She's giving advice about faith to Butters, she's supporting Harry, joking with him, and even when she's in a hospital bed she's smiling and laughing with him.
Her actions in Skin Game are why I'm suspicious, specifically because of her mental state in Ghost Story and Cold Days. I dunno - maybe she did a lot of healing since Cold Days. But she went from being frightened that Harry would fall to being dead certain that he would not despite evidence to the contrary, went from not wanting a relationship with Dresden to falling all over him, and went from being very internally troubled and conflicted to being the sudden voice of reason. I dunno, it's certainly possible. And I do agree - if you take what she says at face value, she'd never be a traitor, ever.The events of Cold Days explain the change. Karrin is wary of Harry, yes -- when he first comes back from the dead and she hasn't seen him in a year.
By the way, what I was referencing was how she attacked Nick with the sword, despite Harry telling her not to. She could have shot him. She could have attacked Big, Tall and Stinky. She could have called his bluff. But instead she chose to go the route that would have ensured the sword's destruction and Harry's or Michael's death, completely sabotaging the mission, all because she listened to her fears and did what felt was the only thing she could do at the time to protect him.Harry was the one who asked her if she was going to bring the Sword in the first place, and suggested she should bring it along.
As a Nemesis-controlled agent overall Id say. Nemesis invested a metric f*ckton of energy and resources on that scheme, fought the Hunt and even fielded an actual Walker for it. All it would have take for Nemesis to Win the Day was for Murphy to Not Pull the Trigger at the end. Or even to simply Miss, as humans do. I have to think Nemesis would have played that card if it could have.Stop thinking so small. If Nemesis had been in control of Murphy, she wouldn't have simply missed or not pulled the trigger. She would have aimed at Mab herself... probably. New's genre savvy-ness has been rather lacking once you know what to look for.
“You’re saying that the problem is you think I could go bad,” I said.
“I know you could,” she said. “Anyone can.”
Yeah, that's always been my biggest argument against Murphy being a traitor. As Harry's most trusted companion, she has had soooooooo many opportunities to completely screw over the side of reality. But every action she's taken has been to help Harry defend reality. In Cold Days alone, there are six or seven points where, through simple inaction, Murphy could've handed the game to the Outsiders and not even blown her cover.
That she didn't pretty much clears her entirely.
I think Murphy's role moving forward is to be Harry's only close associate without some fairly serious mystical power or protections.
She's shaping to be one of the few vulnerabilities he has, something that can drive him to act irrationally or a hook for the bad guys to pull him along. Molly, Eb, Thomas, Butters, Ivy, the Alphas can look after themselves, Michael and Maggie have serious 24/7 bodyguards. I can't see her agreeing to be wrapped in cotton wool and kept safe. Karrin has some serious friends and isn't defenseless but looks like Harry's closest friend and most likely target all wrapped up together.
Which is precisely why so many people have a hard time seeing Karrin staying in a major story role without something giving way. Either JB will have to change Karrin, or change the world she lives in, or her role in the story...or put her on a bus/kill her.True...
As for Karrin's pride...that's part of the issue too. I'm not sure it would be in character for Karrin to let herself be 'protected' all the time...and yet refusing to let herself be protected could easily make her a Liability. Karrin is not Lois Lane, and could never be content to be Lois Lane...but her current situation looks dangerously close to forcing her in that direction unless something changes.
If something were going to throw Karrin completely off the rails, though, I think it might be something out of left field, not something directly to do with Harry. There's a whole side of Karrin's life and emotions we rarely see: the relationship with her family, her brother-in-/ex, her little sister/rival/replacement, the Chicago PD.
What does Karrin's family think of her choices? What do they know about them? Do her brothers see her as a failure? The girl who couldn't cut it in the boys' game? A victim? A heroine? Does her family know much about her relationship with Marcone? Are they aware that they are more-or-less under Marcone's protection? If so, what do they as a cop family think of that?
Heck, Karrin's career fail could easily burn her brothers, too, whether they know the full truth or not.
Have we heard if Rich and Lisa have a kid yet? If so, what does Karrin think of that? Etc.
I could easily imagine problems from that direction finally driving Karrin over the edge, and it coming as a shock to Harry and Co. because they aren't part of that side of her life. Remember, all we know of Karrin is what we see through the eyes of Harry Dresden. Such first-person perceptions are always incomplete.
This is the jump-off point from the end of Cold Days. And in the beginning of Skin Game, she’s agreeing to follow him into the underworld to perform an act of burglary alongside Nicodemus Archleone,despite the fact that Dresden makes it clear that he's keeping secrets from her and needs her to trust him completely.Yes, including what she said to Harry about the Holy Sword which wasn't exactly true, she hadn't been appointed their custodian.. To how she felt about being a Holy Knight and why she couldn't be one.. Then not telling him she decided to take the Sword of Faith with her as a concealed weapon.. Says that she doesn't completely trust Harry.. She she says he scares the hell out of her, she is telling the truth.. That she fears he may become a monster, she is telling the truth.. I think she thinks she trusts Harry completely, she told Butters that, but the truth is, she doesn't.. Again I think it goes back to not just her insecurities but the fact that Harry is NOT the same man he was before Changes.. That man she knew well, she learned to trust him and would follow him anywhere. But this Harry? No, she doesn't trust him, not completely, her actions in Skin Game says that she doesn't..
I just don’t see how she really could go from this fear and concern to Skin Game, where she just blindly trusts Harry and works alongside terrorists and mass-murderers. Yes, her talk with Butters does kind of show that she’s just decided to blindly trust that her friends aren’t turning into monsters. But it also shows that it’s been a hellish year, and Butters’ fears aren’t unfounded. In fact, they’re the logical conclusion from the evidence since Cold Days. I just don’t buy that Karrin would have immediately changed her tune not only on her fears of Dresden losing control, but also of her own insecurities in a relationship, all during a mission in which she does nothing to contribute to Dresden’s success and everything to stop it.
How do you feel about Murph from Ghost Story onward, with her working in Marcone’s organization, allying with the White Court, and trying to fight the darkness in a far more desperate situation than she’s ever been in before? Most of what you mention is pre-Ghost Story Murphy. Do you feel that she’s really the same person?
True, I don’t see her flat-out betraying and trying to kill Harry. But I can see her suddenly motivated to completely turn against his wishes and sabotage a mission all in a vain attempt to keep him safe. Oh, wait – that’s already happened.
Nobody just suddenly starts dressing in black and cackling maniacally. The road to hell is a gentle, gradual slope, and I think that Karrin’s story has always been one of slow self-destruction. It’s started long before Changes, but everything afterward really kicked things into high gear. Dresden’s fear of what would happen to her if her shield was taken away seems to be happening. What’s book 20 going to look like?
EDIT: Let me just say that I hope you’re right. I really do want Murph to be Dresden’s strong, stalwart companion; the one who’s by his side through thick and thin, the vanilla mortal with the guts and smarts to take on anything that comes to her. But I guess I’m getting cynical, and I just doubt it could last.
Murphy worked with Marcone, not for him. Just as the US and the British worked with Stalin against Hitler. Sometimes you can't choose your allies.Agreed. Marcone was clearly the stronger partner in most respects, but he wouldnt have to cede her territory in exchange for what amounted to advice, as he did (by proxy) in GS.
Besides, what kind of supernatural nasty would keep up the ruse for two years, acting exactly like Murphy would in every way, and not doing anything once that's suspicious?Purely a devil's advocate here, but Maeve kept it up for quite a while before anyone suspected. Aurora too, likely.
Purely a devil's advocate here, but Maeve kept it up for quite a while before anyone suspected. Aurora too, likely.Positions were way different. Both of them were rulers, and rulers don't tend to be questioned or looked at too closely by their followers. How many kings and queens get away with all kinds of outlandish shit because they're wearing the crown and will smite anyone who questions what they're doing?
Positions were way different. Both of them were rulers, and rulers don't tend to be questioned or looked at too closely by their followers. How many kings and queens get away with all kinds of outlandish shit because they're wearing the crown and will smite anyone who questions what they're doing?They were princesses, not Rulers. Mab and Titania both didnt twig to any problem until it was way too late.
The people who would know what to look for (Mab and Titania) did know that something was wrong because they were acting wrong.
OK, I think I had a bit of a misconception on what the Brighter Future Society really is. I had thought it was an organization of Marcone’s dedicated to keeping Marcone’s interests safe from supernatural interference, and that they were part of the greater Chicago Alliance. Karrin basically works through the BFS, and Butters states that the two of them are part of it, so I had thought that Karrin eventually changed her mind and went on Marcone’s payroll. It’s not like she has another employer or anything, and I doubt she’s getting by well on savings and what little comes from the half-pension she was able to get. Everyone else we see in the BFS (basically all the einherjar) is being paid by Marcone to be there, so why not her?The scene that really clarified the structure of the BFS for me was the meeting at Murphy's house. BFS membership seemed to include the White Court, the Paranet, Marcone, and the more nebulously defined Scooby Gang (Not sure if Forthill is acting as a Church rep or simply personal support). Murphy's main role seems to be the organizing force, the one with connections to all the others. Marcone is provides a lot of the money and so is the Patron (whenever Lara is not, Im guessing), but Murphy seems to lead the coalition.
However, when Bob mentions that the BFS provides daycare, Butters does mention that members have jobs. Butters also still works in the Forensic Institute. So no – Karrin might be a member of the BFS, might work with Marcone and his crew, might even ally with them. But as she’s not an employee, she’s not beholden to him, and is only part of his organization on an auxiliary level. It’s not nothing, but it doesn’t carry with it the same level of indebtedness. It also, presumably, doesn’t carry with it the same level of protection that Marcone would offer any of his loyal employees.
So that's one less way that Karrin's changed recently. While I'm not denying that she still could be under some sort of influence, it seems far less likely.
I blame John Glover. I don’t listen to Ghost Story half as much as the rest.You've heard they re-recorded it with Marsters, yes?
Quantus: Mab noticed the problem between four and six years before Cold Days, and just couldn't do anything about it as her knight was on ice. And Titania wouldn't necessarily have noticed simply because she probably doesn't have that much interaction with the Winter Lady. That being said, Nemesis is acknowledged as being incredibly difficult to really tell for certain.Mab also didnt notice it until several years after the initial Infection and after she already knew it had infiltrated the top of her court in Lea. Titania was apparently fairly close to Aurora, and best evidence puts her nemfection at GP timeframe at the latest. That's still a good bit of time, enough to say that the Nemfected are reasonably talented infiltrators. Maeve was the low-end but she was a bit drunk on her new Deception Superpower.
Mira, her bringing the Sword along has absolutely nothing to do with her not trusting Harry.
Agreeing to walk into Hades with him? That is trusting Harry.
Agreeing to do so even when it means walking alongside Nicodemus? That is trusting Harry.
Those are the pertinent actions she takes in Skin Game. Her bringing and using the Sword has nothing to do with trust.Wrong, everything to do with trust... As a result the mission almost didn't come off because Murphy put more trust in her judgement than Harry's... 1] She tells him why she cannot be a Knight and wield a Sword.. 2] She tells him he isn't in charge of the Swords anymore, she is, which wasn't true.. 3] Because she says this to him he has to alter his plans for the mission not knowing she is bringing the Sword anyway.. It could be she merely lost perspective the last couple of years because of what both of them have went through... But it could also be a throw back to the Murphy we used to know in the earlier books, the cop that worked with but didn't fully trust Harry.. She came to trust him, but so much about him has changed since Changes, you might take Murphy out of the police force, but you cannot take the cop out of Murphy.. Yes, she loves him so says she trusts him fully, but there elements of Harry's life now that make the cop in Murphy raise an eyebrow and not fully trust, in spite of herself.
They were princesses, not Rulers. Mab and Titania both didnt twig to any problem until it was way too late.Princesses with their own personal courts and retinues. Princes and princesses get away with just as much, if not more, crazy bullshit as their parents might (see: Joffrey), so the point still stands.
Actually it did because she lied to him. You don't lie to people you trust. He wanted a Knight and a Sword along, she said she couldn't be a Knight for some very good reasons, but she also said it wasn't up to him anymore to find someone, because she was custodian now.. Then she took it upon herself to decide, take the Sword anyway in spite of the danger she knowingly put it in feeling the way she did, and said nothing to him about it. You may not think so, but I my mind that is total lack of trust.. Whether it came from her own insecurity or arrogance or what, she didn't ask his opinion of whether or not she should ignore her true feelings and bring it along anyway.. She either didn't trust his judgement over her own, or didn't want to hear it...She said nothing to him about it because she's smart enough to realize that someone is listening. Why else would Harry not give her information when they're talking in the privacy of her own, warded home?
Yes, no one is arguing against that... However choosing to do it her way not leveling with Harry that she was willing to put a Holy Sword as risk given how she felt... Says she didn't trust Harry to agree with her after what she said about not going along with the creed of the Holy Knights and wielding a Holy Sword.. In other words, she thought she knew better than Harry... That is trust my friend, if I think I know better than you do, that says I don't fully trust your judgement.. Her love of Harry may have motivated her willingness to follow him into Hades, but her lack of trust in his judgement got a Sword broken..Again: Nothing to do with her not trusting Harry. Especially since her actions were exactly what Harry asked her to do in the first place. The whole "thought she knew better than Harry" idea simply is not evidenced in text of the books.
Again, she thought she knew better than Harry, she kept important information from him... You don't do that with people you fully trust.. And in the process she made him feel really rotten about himself...You're attributing motivations to Murphy that are not in evidence in the book.
Wrong, everything to do with trust... As a result the mission almost didn't come off because Murphy put more trust in her judgement than Harry's...I think you misspelled "Butters" there.
1] She tells him why she cannot be a Knight and wield a Sword..Nope. She tells him why she isn't planning to bring a Sword. She never says she "cannot" be a Knight and wield a Sword, just that she doesn't want to save the Denarians.
2] She tells him he isn't in charge of the Swords anymore, she is, which wasn't true..Then why does Harry not protest it? Why does Harry ask her instead of trying to assert his authority? Why does Harry never object to the idea of her having the Swords? The one time he does, she points out that he's not in the right frame of mind and Harry explicitly acknowledges that she is correct.
3] Because she says this to him he has to alter his plans for the mission not knowing she is bringing the Sword anyway..Harry asks about the Swords only after they're at the meeting place. That's a little late for him to "alter his plans," and when he came to ask Murphy for help, he came to ask Murphy for help. The conversation in which he recruits her does not include discussion about her bringing the Sword.
It could be she merely lost perspective the last couple of years because of what both of them have went through... But it could also be a throw back to the Murphy we used to know in the earlier books, the cop that worked with but didn't fully trust Harry.. She came to trust him, but so much about him has changed since Changes, you might take Murphy out of the police force, but you cannot take the cop out of Murphy..Murphy has clearly changed since those first books, especially in her view toward Dresden. I don't know why you refuse to acknowledge that.
Yes, she loves him so says she trusts him fully, but there elements of Harry's life now that make the cop in Murphy raise an eyebrow and not fully trust, in spite of herself.She doesn't have to say she trusts him fully.
You've heard they re-recorded it with Marsters, yes?
Then why does Harry not protest it? Why does Harry ask her instead of trying to assert his authority? Why does Harry never object to the idea of her having the Swords? The one time he does, she points out that he's not in the right frame of mind and Harry explicitly acknowledges that she is correct.I’ll actually do that. Karrin says that she’s found where he’s hidden the swords and took them, which she did against his will. Technically theft, either against the still-technically-alive Dresden or his next-of-kin. She then tells him that she will not surrender them under any circumstances and won’t say where they are. And Dresden is furious, far angrier than he was when Karrin asks him to surrender Bob.
Please provide a quote of someone who says she's not supposed to have the Swords. You have been pushing that argument for years and have not once been able to provide an example of anyone actually saying so.
"I’m not telling you where they are. I’m not giving them back to you. I’m not negotiating."Karrin holds the swords hostage, and refuses to give her trust or loyalty to Dresden unless he gives in to her demands. Her actions are brutal, emotionally manipulative, and both prey upon and enforce Dresden’s doubt, shame, and guilt – something that he doesn’t get over until he gets real trust from Michael in Skin Game. Karrin wavers around with her trust issues; Michael laughs at the thought that Harry even really could turn bad. Michael has ten times the trust in Harry than Karrin does.
I exhaled slowly. A slow, hard anger rolled to a knot in my guts. “Those were my responsibility.”
“They were,” she said. There was something absolutely rigid in her blue eyes. “Not anymore.”
She seemed to understand what I was going through. She didn’t push me. She just held my hands and waited until my breathing steadied. “Harry,” she said quietly. “Do you want my trust?”
I nodded tightly, not trusting myself to speak.
“Then you’re going to have to give me some. I’m on your side. I’m trying to help you. Let it go.”
I shuddered. “OK,” I said.
“Because I did such an amazing job the last time around?”This is another reason that I think that there’s something going on here. You call this love and trust. I call this abuse and manipulation. I’m sorry, but I calls ‘em as I sees ‘em. Just because Karrin thinks she’s being the swords’ custodian out of concern for the Swords and what they represent and out of care for Harry doesn’t make it so. Karrin appointed herself custodian of the swords out of fear of what Dresden might turn into and manipulated Harry into believing the same. And Harry would have been a lot better off if Karrin would have just shown him support, rather than demonstrating that she didn’t think he could be trusted.
“Actually,” Michael said, “You did an excellent job. You defended the swords from those who would try to claim them. And you issued them to people who would use them well.”
“Murphy didn’t,” I said quietly. “I mean, I know it worked out in the end, but my judgment was obviously in error.“
“But you didn’t call her to be a true Knight,” Michael said. You entrusted her with the sword for one purpose: to help you save your little girl from Chichen Itza. She appointed herself the swords’ keeper after you apparently died. And this morning, you gave the Sword of Faith to the right person at the right time.”
“That was an accident.”
“I don’t believe in accidents,” Michael said. “Not where the swords are concerned.”
She said nothing to him about it because she's smart enough to realize that someone is listening. Why else would Harry not give her information when they're talking in the privacy of her own, warded home?
Again: Nothing to do with her not trusting Harry. Especially since her actions were exactly what Harry asked her to do in the first place. The whole "thought she knew better than Harry" idea simply is not evidenced in text of the books.But then why argue about what a bad idea it was? Why not tell Harry what she planned to do... Hey carrying a Holy Sword on this kind of mission is all about open carry, not permitted concealment...
Harry has a secret trump card that he doesn't tell her about, and yet you're not talking about Harry's lack of trust in her. Why is that?Um, you know perfectly well why.... If they had been on Demonreach, or if Mab had been there to do her thing, he may have told her. At least he was up front telling her there were things he could not tell her.. Need to know, Murphy didn't need to know, plus as you say her place wasn't secure...
I’ll actually do that. Karrin says that she’s found where he’s hidden the swords and took them, which she did against his will. Technically theft, either against the still-technically-alive Dresden or his next-of-kin. She then tells him that she will not surrender them under any circumstances and won’t say where they are. And Dresden is furious, far angrier than he was when Karrin asks him to surrender Bob. Karrin holds the swords hostage, and refuses to give her trust or loyalty to Dresden unless he gives in to her demands. Her actions are brutal, emotionally manipulative, and both prey upon and enforce Dresden’s doubt, shame, and guilt – something that he doesn’t get over until he gets real trust from Michael in Skin Game. Karrin wavers around with her trust issues; Michael laughs at the thought that Harry even really could turn bad. Michael has ten times the trust in Harry than Karrin does.You're looking at two different times in Harry's life.
“If . . . Look. I have a will in a lockbox at the National Bank on
Michigan. If something should happen to me . . . I’d appreciate it if
you’d see to it. You’re on the list of people who can open it. Listed
as executor.”
“Harry,” she said.
“Granted, there’s not much to have a will about at the moment,” I
said. “Everything was in my house or office, but . . . there are some
intangibles and . . .” I felt my throat tighten, and cut short my
request. “Take care of it for me?”
A dead silence settled on the room, into which Sir Stuart askedYeah, that sure sounds like a Harry that didn't think Murphy should have the Swords. You can just feel the shock and outrage at her audacity in his words and description, can't you?
me, conversationally, “Which swords?”
“The Swords of the Cross,” I said quietly, out of habit—I could
have sung it operatically without anyone there noticing. “The ones
with the nails from the Crucifixion worked into them.”
...
“Yeah,” I said, deadpan. “The little blond woman has two of
them.”
“Oh, my,” Sir Stuart said, his voice muted with respect. “I can
see why you’d come to her for assistance.”
“Damn skippy,” I agreed. “Better go get Morty while she’s still in
a good mood.”
Dresden doesn’t want to give Karrin the swords, but because of Karrin’s mistrust in him he believes that he just can’t be trusted at all. That is NOT trust. That is actually a toxic situation. Karrin can literally demand whatever she want. Karrin does exactly the same thing in Cold Days as Butters does in Skin Game: dumps all of her fears and insecurities on Dresden and expects him to conform to her idea of what he *should* be. Karrin is not in a good place in Cold Days, and because she’s one of the people that Dresden loves and cares for most, it really harms him.No, he believes he can't be trusted with the Swords because his instant reaction to her calm refusal was to punch the wall next to her head before he even realized what he was doing.
Michael sets things right at the end of Skin Game. He calls things for what they are, and asserts that Karrin wasn’t called to be a custodian of the swords. He gives his sword back to Harry for safekeeping, asserting that Harry is the right person for the job. And his REAL trust in Dresden is what finally makes Harry choose, at the end, to have faith in himself. It's what finally convinces him that there's light at the end of the tunnel, and that it's possible that he could actually withstand Mab's influence and not turn into a monster.Michael doesn't say she wasn't supposed to be Custodian -- just that she appointed herself. He never says she was wrong to take them. And, again, Michael did not see Harry during Cold Days.
This is another reason that I think that there’s something going on here. You call this love and trust. I call this abuse and manipulation. I’m sorry, but I calls ‘em as I sees ‘em. Just because Karrin thinks she’s being the swords’ custodian out of concern for the Swords and what they represent and out of care for Harry doesn’t make it so. Karrin appointed herself custodian of the swords out of fear of what Dresden might turn into and manipulated Harry into believing the same. And Harry would have been a lot better off if Karrin would have just shown him support, rather than demonstrating that she didn’t think he could be trusted.You're either forgetting or ignoring Harry's state during Cold Days.
Wordlessly, he offered me Amoracchius. I stared at the Sword
for a moment.
“I’m not so sure I should have that,” I said.
“If you were,” he said, “I wouldn’t want you to have it. Uriel placed
it in your care. If he wanted it moved, he should say so.”
But not smart enough by that logic to realize that that same person will know about her concealing the Holy Sword and how she really felt about it and set her up... So she isn't that smart, or she lacked trust in Harry.What? There is nothing in that sentence that logically points to her not trusting Harry.
But then why argue about what a bad idea it was? Why not tell Harry what she planned to do... Hey carrying a Holy Sword on this kind of mission is all about open carry, not permitted concealment...Who says that? Where are the rules written down? Or is Michael breaking those rules when he carries the Sword in a duffelbag? Or Shiro, when he conceals his Sword in a cane?
Um, you know perfectly well why.... If they had been on Demonreach, or if Mab had been there to do her thing, he may have told her. At least he was up front telling her there were things he could not tell her.. Need to know, Murphy didn't need to know, plus as you say her place wasn't secure...All of those things apply to Murphy as well as they do to Dresden.
Mira, please answer this question directly: Why do you constantly come down on Murphy for not trusting Dresden, without ever even acknowledging that Butters' clear, explicit distrust in Dresden created the situation in the first place?
Is placing a secret tracking bug somehow more a sign of trust than agreeing to go with Dresden knowing he's not giving you information and putting your life in his hands?
So, to answer your questions:Again, this all completely ignores Harry's mindset, and attributes actions and motivations to Murphy that are completely wrong and not presented by anything in the books.
Then why does Harry not protest it? He does, loudly, angrily, and gets stonewalled.So in your opinion, loudly and angrily attacking someone to get what you want is the correct behavior for a Custodian of the Swords? Do you believe Buzz in The Warrior was right to do so against Dresden, then?
Why does Harry ask her instead of trying to assert his authority? Because he's in complete guilt and doubt - something that's a theme of Skin Game, as alluded to in its very first sentences.What in his manner and words in that conversation expresses guilt and doubt? It reads to me a lot more like he simply accepted that she was right.
Why does Harry never object to the idea of her having the Swords? Because Karrin's convinced him that she's in a much better place to make these judgments than he is, and Harry believes her when she shows her mistrust in him.You're painting her as some kind of manipulator, which plainly is not the case. I mean, read the Cold Days conversation again. Her "convincing" amounts mostly to standing there silently while Harry works things out in his own mind.
The one time he does, she points out that he's not in the right frame of mind and Harry explicitly acknowledges that she is correct. Yes, and he chooses to believe his own fears and the doubts and fears of those closest to him, rather than the word and trust from agents of a being who is arguably infinitely beneficent and omniscient. In other words: Harry was WRONG to doubt that he could be custodian of the swords. And Karrin was the one who manipulated him into that conclusion. He would never have reached it by himself.Again, the "word and trust" of Michael comes more than a year later. More than a year of explicitly mastering the Mantle later. It does not come when Harry is on the verge of raping Molly and Andi just because they sassed back to him and happened to be weakened, respectively.
When Karrin is talking about the Swords in Cold Days, yes, Harry is furious with her -- out of character levels of furious, and comes to within inches of smashing her skull in. That is why she doesn't give up the Swords, because she can recognize that he is not in a place at that point in time that the Swords would be safe with him. When he stops and thinks, Harry recognizes that too, and does not further protest.Two things. First, that’s your reading of the situation, not Harry’s actual statement. What actually happens in that scene is that Karrin tells him that she’s not giving him back the swords and that it’s non-debatable, and Harry does have a violent reaction. She doesn’t back down, touches him, and he submits. Harry’s first-person narrative thought process doesn’t include the same sort of internal processing that he does in the case of Bob. Rather, he just acknowledges that he doesn’t want to lose Karrin or her trust, and gives in to her demands.
Murphy isn't saying, "I'll only trust you if you accede to my demands." She's saying, "The last time we spoke, you told me Mab was going to turn you into a monster. You're acting suspiciously un-Harry-like. Before I trust you, I need to see proof that you're not the monster you explicitly told me you were going to become last time we talked, and show that you're still worthy of that trust."
Michael, however, only sees Harry again after Harry has spent a year and change mastering the Mantle. Michael talks to a Harry who is not on the verge of murdering and raping his friends and long-time allies for perceived slights.That’s your opinion. Michael has seen Harry at his best and his worst. He’s soulgazed Harry, and knows what’s in his heart. What’s more, Michael knows firsthand about Choice and free will. He also demonstrates that he understands to a degree what the mantle does to the mind of the person in possession of it, and what it does not do – strip them of the freedom to choose. Michael’s moment of doubt with Harry happened long ago, in Small Favor, and he choose to believe in his friend despite evidence to the contrary, because he knows the man.
I think if Michael saw a Harry who was a hair's breadth from raping his daughter and Andi and who had to physically hold himself back from smashing Murphy's head in for having the audacity to say no to him, he might say something different.
“The thing is,” I said quietly, “the sword’s keeper needs clear judgment more than anything else and I’m not sure I have it anymore.”Choice has power, and Harry never loses the power of choice.
“Why not?” Michael asked.
“Because of the Winter Mantle. Because of Mab. If I take the sword, bad things could happen down the line.”
“Of course they could,” Michael said. “But I don’t believe for a second that they would happen because you chose to make them happen.”
“That’s what I mean,” I said. “What if… What if Mab gets to me eventually?” I waved my hand. “Stars and stones, I just spent the weekend working with Denarians on behalf of freaking Marcone. I’ve had this job for what, a couple of years? What will I be like five years from now, or ten, or a hundred and fifty?”
“I don’t believe that for a second,” Michael said. “I know you.”
Two things. First, that’s your reading of the situation, not Harry’s actual statement. What actually happens in that scene is that Karrin tells him that she’s not giving him back the swords and that it’s non-debatable, and Harry does have a violent reaction. She doesn’t back down, touches him, and he submits. Harry’s first-person narrative thought process doesn’t include the same sort of internal processing that he does in the case of Bob. Rather, he just acknowledges that he doesn’t want to lose Karrin or her trust, and gives in to her demands.Maybe because he realizes that the person who would lose Karrin's trust shouldn't have the Swords.
It hit me, what I was thinking, what my instincts were screaming at me to do, and I suddenly sagged, bowing my head. My breath came out in uneven jerks. I closed my eyes, tried to get it under control.
Second, yeah, she actually is saying that she won’t trust him unless he gives into her demands. She flatly tells him that her trust in him depend on his response “in the next few minutes.” She even says that Bob and the Swords are being taken because terrible things could happen in the wrong hands. This isn’t about giving proof that he’s not some monster. This is about stripping him of the two things that would be the worst thing for a dark monster to possess.Depending on his response meaning, "Showing me that you're still worthy of trust," not "I'll only trust me if you do as I want you to." It's exactly about proof that he's not some monster. You're acting like Murphy is making some kind of power play, when that's not the case.
That’s your opinion.That the two exchanges happen more than a year apart and that Harry's mindset and control of the Mantle are in very different places is not a matter of opinion. They're observable, explicit fact.
Michael has seen Harry at his best and his worst. He’s soulgazed Harry, and knows what’s in his heart. What’s more, Michael knows firsthand about Choice and free will. He also demonstrates that he understands to a degree what the mantle does to the mind of the person in possession of it, and what it does not do – strip them of the freedom to choose. Michael’s moment of doubt with Harry happened long ago, in Small Favor, and he choose to believe in his friend despite evidence to the contrary, because he knows the man.Michael did not see Harry nearly pound Murphy's head into the wall. Michael did not see Harry having to mentally hold back from viciously raping his daughter. Michael did not see Harry agreeing to "watch the world burn" to get what he wants.
Michael’s just a man. He was a Knight, but he’s no better than anyone else, and would be the first to acknowledge his own faults and flaws. He and Murphy share a lot in regard to background and faith. He showed in The Warrior that he can be irrationally scared for others and for his family, and can also be tempted to do terrible things. But he also has his faith and trust in the right things. He has a grounding which guides him, whereas Murph is letting her fears and doubts guide her.So, Michael when he's talking about Dresden is spot on and perfect, because he is totally on the money on Dresden despite not seeing him for more than a year and not witnessing what the Mantle has done to him, but when it comes to Murphy, he's "just a man" "no better than anyone else"?
When you see Harry in Cold Days, you see a man who’s a hair’s breadth away from doing all sorts of unspeakable acts. I see someone who, despite all of the temptations and hormones and magical influences, is strongly choosing to say NO to those things. Choice and free will have a power all of their own in the Dresden Files. It was Will which broke the bonds of Mother Winter, Choice which gave Harry the strength to defy Mab on his first conscious moments in Demonreach at the end of Ghost Story.Harry is not a perfect paragon. He has made bad choices. Hell, he made the Sword vulnerable years before Murphy did.
Choice has power, and Harry never loses the power of choice.No, but he has influences on him that will change what he chooses. One of which, in Cold Days, is brand new to him and a very powerful influence that he's still trying to get control of.
I know this is trite since I already said it, but I'm 100% in agreement with Mr. Death's opinion. Just thought I needed to say it again because this discussion is fascinating to watch.Thank you. Sometimes I feel like I'm the only one who doesn't think Murphy is some kind of arrogant, power-playing manipulator just out to screw Dresden (or at least, the most vocal) and it's nice to get a little support now and again.
Thank you. Sometimes I feel like I'm the only one who doesn't think Murphy is some kind of arrogant, power-playing manipulator just out to screw Dresden (or at least, the most vocal) and it's nice to get a little support now and again.
WOW ... you guys sure do type a lot.I do admit I get pretty verbose. I seem incapable of making a point without going into several paragraphs and at least one analogy.
I do admit I get pretty verbose. I seem incapable of making a point without going into several paragraphs and at least one analogy.Whereas I always feel lost without a whiteboard and at least three colors to explain myself... :P
I think some are thinking that it is a right or a wrong with whether or not Murphy trust Harry totally.. It is clear that she doesn't... She may have had good reasons considering the Winter Mantle and all, but her not giving the Swords back to Harry and the issue of Bob, says she doesn't... End of story.. Harry gives into her because he completely trust her judgement.. He trusts her judgement so much that it makes him question everything about himself."End of story"?
Again, her reasons for not trusting Harry may have been good, she still doesn't trust him as of Skin Game, because she still won't release the Swords to Harry's care, though their custody was something she took upon herself, yet she implies that it was handed to her by divine judgement, with a dig that she knows because she has faith and Harry doesn't.Harry doesn't ask for the Swords in Skin Game. She never once implies it was "handed to her by divine judgment," and her saying she has faith is not a "dig" at Harry.
Now this doesn't make her a bad person, she may have been totally right not to completely trust Harry because of what he had been though... But while those issues remained, and they did up until the shattering of the Sword, love or no love, in spite of what she said to Butters about complete trust, Murphy did not completely trust Harry.. Either she was lying to Butters to make him feel better, or something worse.. She does trust Harry completely but has her own agenda.. It may not be all that sinister either, she may have wanted to keep control of the Swords because she felt that she was losing influence.Just repeating "she doesn't trust Harry" doesn't make it true, and ignoring all the arguments against that assertion doesn't erase them. I asked you several questions and you're just not addressing them.
Butters sighed. “I see what you did there.”
“I don’t think you do,” she said. “It’s about choices, Waldo. About faith. You have an array of facts in front of you that can fit any of several truths. You have to choose what you’re going to allow to drive your decisions about how to deal with those facts.”
“What do you mean?”
“You can let fear be what motivates you,” Karrin said. “Maybe you’re right; maybe Dresden is being turned into a monster against his knowledge and will. Maybe one day he’ll be something that kills us all. You’re not wrong. That kind of thing can happen; it scares me, too.”
“Then why are you arguing with me?”
Karrin paused for a time before answering. “Because fear is a terrible, insidious thing, Waldo. It taints and stains everything it touches. If you let fear start driving some of your decisions, sooner or later it will drive them all. I decided that I’m not going to be the kind of person who lives her life in fear of her friends turning into monsters.”
“What, just like that?”
“It took me a long, long time to get there,” she said. “But at the end of the day, I would rather have faith in the people I care about than allow my fears to change them, in my own eyes, if nowhere else. I guess maybe you don’t see what’s happening with Harry here.”
“What?” Butters asked.
“This is what it looks like when someone’s fighting for his soul,” she said. “He needs his friends to believe in him. The fastest way for us to help us make him into a monster is to look at him like he is one.”
D. How is Harry correct in his assessment that in his state of mind and situation he should give Bob back, but thirty seconds later, he's suddenly absolutely the right and only person who should have the Swords, which are just as important as Bob, and which are at greater risk? Personally, I think that his emotional reaction is because being the custodian of the swords means something to him. Bob, he acknowledges, is just a very powerful tool that’s dangerous in the wrong hands. Harry has a sort of respect for the swords and all it represents, and it hurts to be told he's not worthy anymore.
However, whether or not Harry thinks he is a good custodian of the sword is irrelevant – the only one who can really have an opinion on who should and should not be a custodian is TWG. The swords have been awarded to Harry despite his flaws and darker nature on many occasions, not because he’s some sort of paragon of virtue, but because higher beings on some other plane of existence see it fit that he should have it. Murphy and Dresden are second-guessing those beings, and Dresden's assertion that they were given to him is an assertion of that higher power.
Anyways, to answer your questions:
And, again: Is instant violence the kind of response that the rightful custodian of the Swords should have? Depends. Michael knew that Harry was the keeper of the sword of Faith in the same time period that he knew that he had touched a coin and was under a Fallen’s influence. Yet Michael never stepped in and took the sword from him. I think that Michael defers to the judgment of higher powers rather than his own, and I don’t think that the servants of TWG are as swayed by momentary actions as much as the heart and choice of the individual. They also have a different perspective than the average mortal.
Tell me what text in the books indicates Murphy is "manipulating" him. Tell me what text in the books indicates that Harry should have the Swords in that time and place. Of course, you know that it never explicitly says that Harry should have had the swords in the text of the book. The only one who can determine who *should* have the swords is TWG, and we only see his will as expressed through his servants. Uriel can be trusted to reflect his master’s will; Michael, to a lesser extent – he is human, after all. But it is to be noted that both Michael and Uriel both act with faith and trust in Harry, and so far that faith and trust has not been misplaced. Harry’s actions, while out of character, are completely in character of someone under the power of the Winter Mantle. The only thing out of character are the choices that Harry makes.
Uriel placed it in your care. If he wanted it moved, he should say so."
She appointed herself the Swords' keeper after you apparently died.
C. Why is Murphy slammed for hiding something from Dresden, while Dresden is not at all criticized for hiding information from Murphy? The information they're hiding is for the same reasons, and neither intended on telling the other that something was hidden. Don’t remember slamming Murphy for this, so maybe someone else can handle this one.
However, whether or not Harry thinks he is a good custodian of the sword is irrelevant – the only one who can really have an opinion on who should and should not be a custodian is TWG. The swords have been awarded to Harry despite his flaws and darker nature on many occasions, not because he’s some sort of paragon of virtue, but because higher beings on some other plane of existence see it fit that he should have it. Murphy and Dresden are second-guessing those beings, and Dresden's assertion that they were given to him is an assertion of that higher power.
E. Sanya, a Knight of the Cross, says that someone who is sure they should have the Swords is not someone who should have the Swords. Harry, in Cold Days, is sure he should have the Swords. Is Sanya wrong? Sanya’s human, and the most junior of the Knights. It’s kind of like the old cliché – anyone with a desire for power or leadership has proven that they’re not fit to wield it. I think that these words of Sanya’s aren’t some sort of hard-and-fast code of “What must one do to be a custodian of the Swords?” but rather him stating his personal opinion: “Look, the fact that you’re second-guessing this means that you respect the danger and will not abuse it.” And yes, that’s my opinion, but I feel that it’s sound.
A. Is nearly punching your friend and ally's head off because you're angry the proper behavior for a custodian of the Swords of the Cross? Dunno. See above. Merlin wasn’t a saint, and Michael was OK with Harry carrying both a coin and a sword. I would loosely say that whether or not a person should carry a sword seems to be something that is not directly related to their personal code of conduct.True, at best Sanya is an agnostic yet he is also a Holy Knight..
B. Why is Butters exempt from any criticism for his clear distrust of Dresden, which directly led to the Sword being broken? He’s not. But the same fear and distrust that Butters puts voice to is the same exact fear and distrust that Murph voices in her entrance and exit from Cold Days. It’s not that Butters is exempt from it; it’s that Murph is also not exempt from it. And my WAG puts suspicion on Murphy because despite her sudden realization and faith and trust in Harry, the results of her actions are negative. Nothing more.
You're acting like Murphy is making some kind of power play, when that's not the case. I’m saying that she’s doing her best to protect everyone she knows by limiting the amount of damage Harry could do. And she’s using her trust and loyalty as the lever to get Dresden to listen to her. Yeah, if my WAG is correct then it could also be some sort of dark play to get the swords in custody and destroy one in a totally legit manner, but that’s a WAG.
Michael soulgazed Harry more than a decade ago. A lot has changed in Harry's life since then. True, but remember that the soulgaze is a view of a person’s fundamental self, and Harry has stated more than once that if a person has changed drastically since them they would trigger a new soulgaze.
Tell me how putting her trust in Harry is "letting fear and doubts" guide her. Because she’s not trusting Harry. She doesn’t trust that he won’t turn evil – she doesn’t get that until Skin Game. At this point, she’s just at the ‘wait and see’ stage. She gives Harry a limited amount of trust IF he also surrenders these articles of power to her.Exactly, Murphy doesn't fully trust Harry, that is not a judgement of her one way or the other..
I’m not ignoring that Dresden’s going through some really dark stuff. I know how close he is to violence. I know that he relies on his friends to point him in the right direction. But he also relies on them to believe in him. I know you keep telling me to “reread Cold Days” or “reread Skin Game” – I know these books; it’s not inexperience that’s giving me this viewpoint, despite the large difference in our postcounts on this online forum. And Karrin taking the swords and Bob at this point is a clear display that she just doesn’t have faith in him to not turn bad at some point in the future. It’s as simple as that.
Murphy worked with Marcone, not for him. Just as the US and the British worked with Stalin against Hitler. Sometimes you can't choose your allies.
Titania was apparently fairly close to Aurora, and best evidence puts her nemfection at GP timeframe at the latest.
Do we know that Aurora was Nemfected? Has JB confirmed that?
I think some are thinking that it is a right or a wrong with whether or not Murphy trust Harry totally.. It is clear that she doesn't... She may have had good reasons considering the Winter Mantle and all, but her not giving the Swords back to Harry and the issue of Bob, says she doesn't... End of story.. Harry gives into her because he completely trust her judgement.. He trusts her judgement so much that it makes him question everything about himself.
Again, her reasons for not trusting Harry may have been good, she still doesn't trust him as of Skin Game, because she still won't release the Swords to Harry's care, though their custody was something she took upon herself, yet she implies that it was handed to her by divine judgement, with a dig that she knows because she has faith and Harry doesn't. Now this doesn't make her a bad person, she may have been totally right not to completely trust Harry because of what he had been though... But while those issues remained, and they did up until the shattering of the Sword, love or no love, in spite of what she said to Butters about complete trust, Murphy did not completely trust Harry.. Either she was lying to Butters to make him feel better, or something worse.. She does trust Harry completely but has her own agenda.. It may not be all that sinister either, she may have wanted to keep control of the Swords because she felt that she was losing influence.
I have to take issue with the part I highlighted. If you are just referring to Harry's behavior in Cold Days, you may have a point though one I don't entirely agree with, but long before the events in CD Harry has questioned himself for a long time without Murphy's help. Now, if you are specifically referring to Harry deferring to Murphy's judgement in Cold Days, remember that before Murphy appeared in the story Harry was wondering why he was having graphic violent and sexual thoughts and images popping into his brain when he was dealing with Andi, Molly and Lily. So whatever Murphy's motives were, she wasn't simply expressing her own opinion and Harry just gave in because he trusts her, she was expressing concerns that were already starting to take shape in Harry's mind.I don't disagree with that actually, and Harry was questioning what was happening to him before she said anything. The reality in Cold Days was any normal urge or reaction suddenly became on steroids because of the mantle.. Normal sexual attraction to a woman became a sudden urge to rape etc.. Normal upset became an anger management problem etc.. I don't question Murphy's motives at all there. What I had a problem with then, and more so in Skin Game is she goes into an almost preaching mode, or yeah, a preaching mode telling Harry his problems and why he is doing this or that. No questions and no listening on her part. She does this because she thinks she knows Harry that well and she thinks she understands what he is doing.. But she is wrong because since Changes everything has changed with Harry.
Do we know that Aurora was Nemfected? Has JB confirmed that?I mean, I thought Titania confirmed it; what else would make her admit that her daughter had to die? And we have WOJ that Sidhe of queen or Erlking level shouldnt be capable of /considering/ destroying the Natural Order.
Hey Mr. Death, I just want to start with saying this: I’m totally cool if this is just a debate back and forth. But I’m a little concerned that I might be hitting a nerve or be pushing too far. No need to turn a friendly debate into an argument. If I’m coming across as a jerk or something, let me know and I’ll walk away. No big deal.It's got less to do with you and more to do with Murphy -- she gets bashed a lot on these forums, and the bashers tend to make a lot of the same arguments you are, including that she was supposedly never supposed to have the Swords.
And, again: Is instant violence the kind of response that the rightful custodian of the Swords should have? Depends. Michael knew that Harry was the keeper of the sword of Faith in the same time period that he knew that he had touched a coin and was under a Fallen’s influence. Yet Michael never stepped in and took the sword from him. I think that Michael defers to the judgment of higher powers rather than his own, and I don’t think that the servants of TWG are as swayed by momentary actions as much as the heart and choice of the individual. They also have a different perspective than the average mortal.Lash's influence is a different beast than the Mantle's. Lash started subtly, and Harry caught on pretty quick. Lash also didn't push him to the kind of mindless, instant violence the Mantle is.
Tell me what text in the books indicates Murphy is "manipulating" him. Tell me what text in the books indicates that Harry should have the Swords in that time and place. Of course, you know that it never explicitly says that Harry should have had the swords in the text of the book. The only one who can determine who *should* have the swords is TWG, and we only see his will as expressed through his servants. Uriel can be trusted to reflect his master’s will; Michael, to a lesser extent – he is human, after all. But it is to be noted that both Michael and Uriel both act with faith and trust in Harry, and so far that faith and trust has not been misplaced. Harry’s actions, while out of character, are completely in character of someone under the power of the Winter Mantle. The only thing out of character are the choices that Harry makes.Yes, and he's acting out of character for a custodian of the Swords. Someone who's acting in such a way that would make the Swords vulnerable -- by, say, attacking his friends and allies -- shouldn't have the Swords.
As for manipulating, I feel like you’re taking this in the “HAHAHA, I have you now!” kind of sneaky dark manipulation. Murph knows that Harry wants and values her trust and loyalty. She makes it very clear that she’s willing to give it IF Harry goes along with her requests. She doesn’t sit down calmly with Harry and say, “Hey, I’m worried that you have these two things, can I maybe hang on to them for you?” No, she specifically states that her actions will all depend on how Harry responds to her. That’s a kind of manipulation. Harry makes his decision knowing that he will win or lose Karrin’s trust by agreeing or disagreeing with her. She even poses that question directly to Dresden right before he submits – if you want my trust, you have to give me trust.It's tough love. Harry doesn't need someone to coddle him. Harry can be a little thick sometimes; sometimes he needs soft and subtle (like Murphy is later in that same scene, where Harry muses that she knows what he's going through), and sometimes he needs a brick to the head.
Michael did not see Harry nearly pound Murphy's head into the wall. Michael did not see Harry having to mentally hold back from viciously raping his daughter. Michael did not see Harry agreeing to "watch the world burn" to get what he wants. Nope. But for the first two, I do believe that Michael would see them as Harry learning restraint with the Winter Mantle. He directly addresses the last one in Skin Game, and acknowledges that he doesn’t know if he would do any differently.Key word is learning. He's still working through the Mantle. He's like a teenager -- you don't give them the keys to the BMW until they've finished learning how to drive. You don't give it to him when he's still running his old VW Bug into light posts.
Michael soulgazed Harry more than a decade ago. A lot has changed in Harry's life since then. True, but remember that the soulgaze is a view of a person’s fundamental self, and Harry has stated more than once that if a person has changed drastically since them they would trigger a new soulgaze.A soulgaze is also affected by someone's current mindset and emotions. Soulgazing Winter Knight Harry is going to be very different than soulgazing Pre-SF Harry, even if it'ts not a complete personality change.
Tell me how putting her trust in Harry is "letting fear and doubts" guide her. Because she’s not trusting Harry. She doesn’t trust that he won’t turn evil – she doesn’t get that until Skin Game. At this point, she’s just at the ‘wait and see’ stage. She gives Harry a limited amount of trust IF he also surrenders these articles of power to her.And then for the rest of the book she does things like drive her motorcycle onto Lake Michigan surrounded by the Wyld Hunt. That kinda sounds like trust to me.
That's all Murphy was doing. You cannot ignore that Harry is working through a lot of dark stuff in Cold Days. Agree with all of these things, and also with what Murph was doing. I swear, sometimes it sounds to me like we’re making the same argument. However, I do think that Karrin’s making the wrong decision here. Is it easier to make the right decision if your friends tell you that they have faith in you and believe in you, or is it easier if they treat you like you could turn into a monster at any point? Skin Game Karrin has a different opinion on the matter than Cold Days Karrin, and came to that conclusion seemingly independent of rampaging Dresden.Harry is acting in a manner that would, if he was holding the Swords, make then vulnerable and unmake them. In Grave Peril, "lashing out with violence against the Swords' mission" is literally the thing Harry does that lets Lea grab the Sword, and in Skin Game, that's exactly what he's a hair's breadth from doing to Murphy before he realizes what he's done.
I’m not ignoring that Dresden’s going through some really dark stuff. I know how close he is to violence. I know that he relies on his friends to point him in the right direction. But he also relies on them to believe in him. I know you keep telling me to “reread Cold Days” or “reread Skin Game” – I know these books; it’s not inexperience that’s giving me this viewpoint, despite the large difference in our postcounts on this online forum. And Karrin taking the swords and Bob at this point is a clear display that she just doesn’t have faith in him to not turn bad at some point in the future. It’s as simple as that.Murphy does believe in him, and she proves that in the rest of the book. It's not that she doesn't have faith in him for the future -- it's that she sees what he's doing right now.
Karrin is who she has always appeared to Dresden to be when he’s seen her with the Sight: tattered, torn, worn by the world, but trying to do the right thing. I don’t hold it against her that she makes this decision; anyone else might do the same. But I’m not going to look at it and say that she’s doing something good for Dresden, because she’s not. She loves and cares for him, but she has a duty to protect others, and that comes first.So what happens if she gives him the Swords then and there, and doesn't force him into the realizations he has in that scene? I don't see a scenario there that doesn't end with the Swords breaking.
A. Is nearly punching your friend and ally's head off because you're angry the proper behavior for a custodian of the Swords of the Cross? Dunno. See above. Merlin wasn’t a saint, and Michael was OK with Harry carrying both a coin and a sword. I would loosely say that whether or not a person should carry a sword seems to be something that is not directly related to their personal code of conduct.I don't see how you could think that. Why would someone's conduct not be relevant? Do you think Harry was chosen just because he's Harry Dresden, or do you think he was chosen because he's a good man? Would Harry still be entrusted to the Swords if he was a bad man?
B. Why is Butters exempt from any criticism for his clear distrust of Dresden, which directly led to the Sword being broken? He’s not. But the same fear and distrust that Butters puts voice to is the same exact fear and distrust that Murph voices in her entrance and exit from Cold Days. It’s not that Butters is exempt from it; it’s that Murph is also not exempt from it. And my WAG puts suspicion on Murphy because despite her sudden realization and faith and trust in Harry, the results of her actions are negative. Nothing more.Except Butters' distrust is in Skin Game, and it's what directly leads to the Sword being broken. In all the discussions where people are accusing Murphy of everything from being an arrogant blowhard to intentionally getting the Sword broken, this is never brought up.
C. Why is Murphy slammed for hiding something from Dresden, while Dresden is not at all criticized for hiding information from Murphy? The information they're hiding is for the same reasons, and neither intended on telling the other that something was hidden. Don’t remember slamming Murphy for this, so maybe someone else can handle this one.Yeah, this one is directed more toward Mira.
D. How is Harry correct in his assessment that in his state of mind and situation he should give Bob back, but thirty seconds later, he's suddenly absolutely the right and only person who should have the Swords, which are just as important as Bob, and which are at greater risk? Personally, I think that his emotional reaction is because being the custodian of the swords means something to him. Bob, he acknowledges, is just a very powerful tool that’s dangerous in the wrong hands. Harry has a sort of respect for the swords and all it represents, and it hurts to be told he's not worthy anymore.As pointed out, Bob ought to mean just as much as the Swords. He's had Bob since he was 16, so we're talking 25-30 years. He's been a friend.
However, whether or not Harry thinks he is a good custodian of the sword is irrelevant – the only one who can really have an opinion on who should and should not be a custodian is TWG. The swords have been awarded to Harry despite his flaws and darker nature on many occasions, not because he’s some sort of paragon of virtue, but because higher beings on some other plane of existence see it fit that he should have it. Murphy and Dresden are second-guessing those beings, and Dresden's assertion that they were given to him is an assertion of that higher power.
E. Sanya, a Knight of the Cross, says that someone who is sure they should have the Swords is not someone who should have the Swords. Harry, in Cold Days, is sure he should have the Swords. Is Sanya wrong? Sanya’s human, and the most junior of the Knights. It’s kind of like the old cliché – anyone with a desire for power or leadership has proven that they’re not fit to wield it. I think that these words of Sanya’s aren’t some sort of hard-and-fast code of “What must one do to be a custodian of the Swords?” but rather him stating his personal opinion: “Look, the fact that you’re second-guessing this means that you respect the danger and will not abuse it.” And yes, that’s my opinion, but I feel that it’s sound.I thought the only indication from TWG was through his agents. So is Michael's word more ironclad than Sanya's? Why should Sanya's words not be given the same weight?
TBH the main issue that I have with the whole Swords Debacle is that the entire confrontation was so unnecessary. Harry doesn't ask for the Swords back- Murphy just gets in his face and says "Fuck off Dresden, Mine now or we aren't friends".
Which... well, you can call it tough love (which it arguably is) you can call it the right decision re: the Sword's safety (which it almost definitely is) but it is still her acting like a witch with a B and deliberately trying to trigger Harry's berserk buttons to make him concede.
Like, if she'd confronted Harry about Bob with the same aggression she does about the Swords, I think the reaction would be just as violent. The whole confrontation was her deliberately setting him off.
Personally I agree that her reasons for doing so are benevolent, but yeah... people don't like people that act like a dick, and Murphy was doing so quite deliberately there, so it's no surprise she gets some flak for it.
Like, if she'd confronted Harry about Bob with the same aggression she does about the Swords, I think the reaction would be just as violent. The whole confrontation was her deliberately setting him off.Point of Fact: She did, That scene was about both the Skull and the Swords. He just agreed to give it back to butters easier than with the Swords.
Two things:The swords are a great responsibility bestowed on Harry with trust. Being their custodian means that a higher power deems Harry worthy. Bob is a magical weapon that Harry stole or saved because he understood its value. Harry has a more personal feeling about Bob than swords.
- Saying that Harry only views Bob as a useful tool and has no emotional attachments to him is insane.
- If the TWG decided that Murphy was an unworthy custodian of the swords, do you really believe that they would have left them in her care for two years? They have one active knight who could have come over at any time and taken them. And I don't think Murphy would have second-guessed Sanya for a nanosecond if that would have been the case, since he gets his marching orders directly from the Big Guy.
The swords are a great responsibility bestowed on Harry with trust. Being their custodian means that a higher power deems Harry worthy. Bob is a magical weapon that Harry stole or saved because he understood its value. Harry has a more personal feeling about Bob than swords.
The Key that I think a lot of this conversation seems to ignore is that she had a year between CD and SG, and she very clearly and specifically had worked through her shit.
“You abandoned your duty,” Douglas gasped. “The world grows darker by the day. People cry out for our help, and you would have this sword sit with this creature of witchcraft and deceit?”Dresden’s not custodian because he earns it. It even seems at some times, to some people, that it must be the working of evil that he has them at all. And I know that in this moment, it seems like Harry shouldn’t hold them, either. At least, it does to Karrin. But “should” for mortals is not “should” for TWG.
“You arrogant child,” Michael snarled. “The Almighty Himself has made His will known. If you are a man of faith, then you must abide by it.”
“You have been lied to,” Douglas said. “How could God ignore His people when they need His protection so badly?”
“That is not for us to know!” Michael shouted. “Don’t you see, you fool? We are only men. We see only in one place at one time. The Lord knows all that might be. Would you presume to say that you know better than our God what should be done with the swords?”
The swords are a great responsibility bestowed on Harry with trust. Being their custodian means that a higher power deems Harry worthy. Bob is a magical weapon that Harry stole or saved because he understood its value. Harry has a more personal feeling about Bob than swords.
Indeed he does, for a number of years Bob was the only being he could confide in.Wait, so the reason you think she doesnt trust him is that she Didnt interrogate about his fashion or his health conditions? Meanwhile she gives a fairly eloquent speech trying to convince Butters that he should trust Harry? Im not sure what you think trust should look like, at this point.
Had she? I am not so sure, she acted like it, but her actions said she hadn't. As I said not once did she ask Harry how his head was feeling, I find it hard to believe she didn't know about his headaches, Butters did as early as Turn Coat. I find it hard to believe she didn't ask him about his earring.. Nor did she toss Harry a bone about his efforts to get his mantle under control, not one word about him doing the best he can.. No, I don't think she had it together at all, it just appeared that she did.. Consider, Butters lost it with Harry because the year had been a horrible one against the Fomor, I think it had to be at least as bad for Murphy, plus the fact that she felt responsible for her foot soldiers.
Personally, I think he took to espionage like a giraffe to table tennis,
Someone I know found it infuriating that Butters's lack of faith was rewarded with a sword, but my interpretation is that broken faith broke the sword of faith, then restored faith restored the sword of faith.
One: I want to address a few of the things that you said about who should and should not have possession of the swords. Much of the responses that you’ve given state that Dresden shouldn’t be the custodian of the swords because a sword wielded for the wrong reasons is incredibly fragile. The one thing, though, is that after Grave Peril, Dresden has never, never, NEVER had any inclination to wield a Sword. He’s very vocally against it. When he talks about the Knights, it’s not uncommon for him to drop in lines such as “And that’s why I will never be a knight.” Even when his daughter is almost certainly going to die and he crosses every line in Changes, he doesn’t pick up the sword. He gives them to others who he thinks would best use them.
Murphy wasn't just concerned about Dresden in Cold Days, she was pissed. Her first real words to Harry are "You don't call, you don't write..." She felt glad to see him, but still feels betrayed, with pretty good reason. After she goes along to Chichen Itza with Harry and Pals, they make a date, and she promptly finds his murder scene. Immediately thereafter, she's thrust into a conflict with supernatural predators, and her until-then dependable companion and invaluable resource in fighting monsters is gone. She's forced to make tough decisions for a year, while desperately holding on to the slim hope that Harry isn't even dead.No, truth is he couldn't he had been mostly dead for half of that year and in rehab for the rest... She also had good reason to believe he was dead in Ghost Story, so why weren't her first words to Harry, "HARRY! YOU'RE ALIVE! I thought you were dead, what happened?" But no, about her feeling betrayed because he didn't call or write....
Murphy, meanwhile, signs up pretty much right away. She's just surprised that Harry wants her to come. She backs his plan pretty much without reservation. When Dresden asks if she's going to bring the swords because these are the guys they're pretty much made to fight, her response isn't "No, I don't trust you," it's along the lines of "I've wielded one for real, and I get the feeling that this isn't their fight." She's not speaking from mistrust, she's speaking from experience.
She's right, by the way; if she had heeded her own instincts, the sword would never have been broken.
Instead, she decides to involve the sword when they see the Genoskwa. Again, I don't see this as mistrust at all. This is her grabbing something because she sees something that can physically outmatch her and was able to toss Mantled Harry around like a paper doll, the same guy who she saw literally smash thousands of vampires with a word a couple years before.
I just don't think Murphy not cheerleading Harry in every scene demonstrates lack of trust or a change in character. She's never been that way before, so why would she be now?
Anyway, I've yet to see any evidence that shows Murphy acting inconsistent with her character, or seriously distrusting Harry, aside from twenty hours during which she has every reason to doubt Harry, but still drives a freaking motorcycle onto a lake when he asks her to.Evidence? The fact that she keeps reminding him he could turn into a monster... That means she thinks he could still turn into a monster... No, my friend she doesn't completely trust that he won't.
Wait, so the reason you think she doesnt trust him is that she Didnt interrogate about his fashion or his health conditions? Meanwhile she gives a fairly eloquent speech trying to convince Butters that he should trust Harry? Im not sure what you think trust should look like, at this point.
In a sense, yes... Why because she doesn't care to get to the bottom of why he was gone, all she can do is tell him how he has let his friends down...You seem to be projecting motivation there. He appeard to lay out everything out to murphy in the off-screen moments prior to SG Ch 2. You are assuming that a) harry didnt mention Mabs interference, b) that she didnt ask, and c) that IF she didnt ask it was from a lack of Caring about him rather than trusting him to have his secrets (which is precisely what she was doing the entire book).
So yeah, eloquent to Butters at that moment, but what about the year that had passed? Do you think Butters would have come to mistrust Harry in a vacuum? She may not have added to it, but I bet she didn't disabuse him of that notion either.You mean during the year that Mab had kept him prisoner and been actively modifying all communications specifically to instill Mistrust in his allies (like Butters). Or do you mean when she disabused him of it On Stage in SG??
You mean during the year that Mab had kept him prisoner and been actively modifying all communications specifically to instill Mistrust in his allies (like Butters). Or do you mean when she disabused him of it On Stage in SG??Who is "she" Murphy or Mab?
You seem to be projecting motivation there. He appeard to lay out everything out to murphy in the off-screen moments prior to SG Ch 2. You are assuming that a) harry didnt mention Mabs interference, b) that she didnt ask, and c) that IF she didnt ask it was from a lack of Caring about him rather than trusting him to have his secrets (which is precisely what she was doing the entire book).
Sometimes, I suspect that Knights are chosen not because they already are good people, but that they have the potential to be good people.
I mean, I thought Titania confirmed it; what else would make her admit that her daughter had to die? And we have WOJ that Sidhe of queen or Erlking level shouldnt be capable of /considering/ destroying the Natural Order.
Who is "she" Murphy or Mab?Murphy disabused butters of yes distrust, or at least made a damn strong effort. Which is a far cry from piling on his distrust or intentionally standing aside, you you suggested.
Looking at them right now. She is WORRIED about him, yes. Precisely! Which is a far cry from the complete lack of caring you were basing your argument on.Apparently he didn't lay anything out and Murphy didn't ask, again read pages 26 -30.. A] No, it appears that Harry didn't mention Mab..
B] From the text, no, Murphy didn't ask, she assumed some psychological explanation about Harry isolating himself on the island from his friends and family on purpose..And she wasnt wrong. And she helped him. Still not getting this Kick-him-while-he's-Down animosity you want to be there?
It may not be a lack of caring, but it is idiotic amateur psychologist at work..Im not saying that Michael didnt do a much better job a few chapters later (by calling harry an arrogant dope), but you simply cant point to scenes of her trying to be a good friend and say that's evidence of her not caring or not wanting to be his friend.
C] Bingo, if she truly trusted him to have his secrets...Which she /did/, every step of the way.
Then she'd truly trust him to have a good reason for those secrets,Which she /did/, every step of the way.
ergo not give him shit in the form of a guilt trip about his friends being so concerned because he purposely isolated himself on Demonreach for a year...Here's where you go off the rails, I think. Looking at it right now and that's not even close to what happened. They are both talking about the future, about whether he'll keep his pets, ever actually try to be a father, all that good stuff that may or may not be possible after the current crisis. That's kind off what good friends do. Reminding somebody that they have a support structure is not a guilt trip.
Just a "missed you Harry what's the plan?" Would do nicely.if she truly trusted him...I kind of expect the "missed you Harry whats the plan" to happen closer to the beginning of the conversation, maybe near the opening of the door, and not at the very end which is all we saw.
No, truth is he couldn't he had been mostly dead for half of that year and in rehab for the rest... She also had good reason to believe he was dead in Ghost Story, so why weren't her first words to Harry, "HARRY! YOU'RE ALIVE! I thought you were dead, what happened?" But no, about her feeling betrayed because he didn't call or write....
Point here is, she knows she shouldn't wield one, her instincts are right... But she brings it anyway... Does she even ask Harry's opinion on whether or not that was a good idea considering? No... Did she trust that he might agree with her? No.. Instead she hides it like a fat lady hiding a candy wrapper thinking no one would notice.. For all her smarts, she displayed her ignorance because she should have known that Nick was listening in and would set her up.. Harry realized it the minute she pulled the Sword out that he didn't know she had with her, but it was too late then..
Not cheerleader, but supportive... If you have a alcoholic that has stayed off the booze for a year, do you berate him because he went off to kick the habit? Or do you say something to the effect that he looks great or keep up the good work you are there for him? That's what friends do...
Evidence? The fact that she keeps reminding him he could turn into a monster... That means she thinks he could still turn into a monster... No, my friend she doesn't completely trust that he won't.
Do you think Butters would have come to mistrust Harry in a vacuum? She may not have added to it, but I bet she didn't disabuse him of that notion either.
Murphy didn't know about Harry being held by Mab. When he tells her, she even points out that it's really unlikely that Harry couldn't have figured out how to contact her. Dresden's narration agrees that yeah, if he had really wanted to, he probably could have, but didn't. Thomas is the only one who really has the reaction a lot of fans probably want, and I get it, but hers is perfectly consistent with her character.
She doesn't have to ask Harry for permission. First, she has the swords already, and Dresden has accepted that by Skin Game. He doesn't say "Bring the swords," he says, "Are you going to bring the swords?"Actually, she has no authority to say anything about the Swords, since she isn't their custodian, she has them, but she isn't in charge of them.. This could be one reason why they hadn't been used since Harry disappeared at the end of Changes.. Granted it could be no suitable candidate has showed up... Harry asks her because he trusts her and doesn't realize back in Cold Days that she lied to him about being the new custodian..
Second, she really doesn't have to ask him if it's a good idea, because he had already told her it was.
Anyway, Harry makes his opinion clear. He thinks they should be used, Murphy says she has to be careful.
And, again, her making a mistake doesn't mean she makes that mistake out of distrust. I didn't say that she was smart to hide it—in fact, I said quite the opposite. I'm not sure what Nic listening in has to do with anything; he didn't hear anything about the Sword, because she didn't say anything about it.
I'm not sure which point you're referring to. In Cold Days, Harry isn't an alcoholic who laid off booze for a year, he's an alcoholic who's been sipping amaretto for the past hour and insisting that he's fine, and she's trying to make sure he doesn't have his car keys. In Skin Game, I don't see any berating at all.How would she know? She never asked, she just assumed.. THAT is trust... She never asked Harry if he had the mantle under control or was better at contriving it now.. She just made assumptions..
In Skin Game, the only time (that I can recall) that she comes close to saying "Oh my God Harry you're going to murder us all" is when they first get to the slaughterhouse, and Harry starts creepily listing off reasons not to murder someone with zero context. They see someone, and the temperature in the car drops, and Harry starts saying, "Reason one: witnesses," and so on. Even then, her response isn't to, you know, run, or say "Harry you're an animal and should be locked up," it's the following:
In the above, she's acknowledging that he has a problem, which, to continue with the alcoholism comparison, is kind of important. Harry is explaining his experience, and she agrees that it's bad, because, you know, it is. He just spent a few minutes talking himself out of murder. Then she tells him that he can figure out a way to get out of it. She's telling an alcoholic that he needs to get help.
We do know Butters's reasons for distrusting him, and he doesn't mention Murphy at all.
The alternative to nemfection for aurora is that her proximity and closeness with humans allowed her greater freedom of action outside the restraints that normally apply to the queens. And that willingness to embrace revolutionary ideas would be what titania learned aurora had become.
Hmmm I'm half and half on Murphy at the moment but to be honest, it started for me when she became "fun buddies" with a mass murdering mercenary. It seemed like such a hypocrisy.
Murphy: "I'm trying to adjust. In my head, I think what we're doing is just about the only thing we responsibly can. But I've been a peace officer since before I could drink, and this kind of cowboy thing feels...wrong. It isn't what a good cop does."
Harry: "Depends on the cop, I think. Mavra and her scourge are above the law, Murph, in every sense that matters. The only way they're going to get stopped is if someone steps up and takes them down."
<skip a bit>
Murphy: The vampires aren't the problem. I can fight that. Glad to. But there are going to be people around them, too. I don't know if I can pull the trigger when there are going to be people around who could get hurt. I signed on to protect them, not to trap them in a cross-fire."
She also had good reason to believe he was dead in Ghost Story, so why weren't her first words to Harry, "HARRY! YOU'RE ALIVE! I thought you were dead, what happened?"
That was weird, wasn't it?I dunno. She must have been pretty confused and wary. She had a hard time accepting Harry's death and finally managed to in GS. Then the guy seems to be back. It could have been an impostor after all. I think she didn't trust her own feelings and reverted to safe mode. For her, that's going on the offensive.
That was weird, wasn't it? Molly was the only one who knew Harry wasn't dead. Andi was right to wonder if she was dealing with Harry or an impostor. Thomas' reaction; his anger, was entirely believable. Murphy said she heard about explosions. Actually these are her exact words:
Harry - "Yeah," I said. "How'd you find me?"
Karrin - "Scanner. The last time a bomb went off in this town, it was in your office building. I hear another one goes off in the street, and then reports of explosions and gunfire out over the lake just after dawn this morning. Math wasn't hard to do."
Seriously? With the Fomor, the White Court and Marcone all staking a claim to the city those noises could have signified battles between any two or all three of those parties. I think a more believable reaction might have been if Murphy had mentioned the bomb, explosions and gunfire and said that she "hoped that only Harry Dresden could be at the heart of such chaos."
There was one other thing missing from Karrin Murphy's reaction to seeing Harry alive again. Karrin Murphy didn't say, "I'm glad your back" or "I'm glad your alive Harry." Even with her concerns about what Mab might have done to him, you'd think Murphy might have expressed some positive emotion at seeing Harry in the flesh again. Instead she went straight to the accusations.
Actually, now that I think about it, Butters reaction to a living, breathing Harry was also a bit strange. You'd think that after talking to someone's ghost you would want to know how they got their body back. In Butters defense it could be argued that he was preoccupied sewing up Harry's wounds at the time, but I'm surprised that Butters; or anyone else for that matter, didn't press Harry for any details about his out of body experiences. Granted Harry's response couldn't have gone much farther than, "I don't have time to explain it all now, if we survive the next twenty-four hours you can ask all the questions you want and I'll answer as best I can," or something like that.
I feel like there is an entire conversation; or maybe two, missing from Cold Days that Jim either decided not to write or did write and decided to scrap or drastically shorten.
Seriously? With the Fomor, the White Court and Marcone all staking a claim to the city those noises could have signified battles between any two or all three of those parties. I think a more believable reaction might have been if Murphy had mentioned the bomb, explosions and gunfire and said that she "hoped that only Harry Dresden could be at the heart of such chaos."The Fomor, White Court and Marcone have something in common -- they're relatively subtle. The Fomor make under-the-table deals with crooked cops. They grab people in such a way that nobody notices until so-and-so doesn't show up at the end of a bus ride. They're not bombing places, because that's counterproductive -- their ideal victim is someone who feels safe. The White Court are all about subtlety. Marcone is invested in keeping the peace, for the most part, because explosions are bad for business.
Not the same thing, Harry did keep the facts about Mr Grey from Murphy... However I think it was also pointed out that her house was not a secured spot.. Only Demonreach or a spot with blocks put on by Mab would be safe from Adriel's eavesdropping.. The mission depended on Mr Grey's double agent status, so yeah, he had to keep that from her, he kept it from Michael... Not at all the same thing as her telling him the Swords cannot be used, Harry thinks one is needed.. Telling him she knows because she has faith implying that he didn't. Saying she had no desire to be a Knight for the mission because she doesn't believe in redemption for Denarians... But then she proceeds to conceal the Sword and take it with her, after her speech on the subject had to have reached Nic.. She says nothing to Harry about this, and proceeds to get it broken...Mira: All of those reasons for secrecy also apply to Murphy.
The Supernatural "war" going on is going on in such a way that the normies don't seem to notice.
Oh, they've noticed it, they just don't understand what it is that they're seeing. It's being chalked up to crime waves, gang violence, etc.Like when the Red court fell nd it being blamed on a change In turf war. The night of bad dreams though... I've always wondered the why of that one? Anyone got any pressing idea's?
Smaug,Here you go.
In this summoning, you do need to name them.
Oh Serack and Schecky, please enlighten us.
Tom: Joshua wanted to know, "in the Dresden universe, an ongoing theme is that most mortals do not believe in magic. One of the few exceptions is the Chicago Special Investigations unit. Are there other governmental groups out there who are clued in? As an example FBI, KGB, NYPD, et cetera. Do they have their own versions of Special Investigations, and if so, would we ever see them in the course of the novels?"
Jim: It was Joshua, you said, right?
Tom: Yes, Joshua asked that question, correct.
Jim: Joshua, if you go back, a detail that a lot of readers have forgotten is the end of Fool Moon where Susan Rodriguez, the reporter, actually got on videotape the werewolf and the big closing fight scene at the end. And then the videotape disappeared and most people kind of forget that the videotape just sort of disappeared. They just sort of put it down to oh, that's random background stuff. It's not random background stuff. Somebody made it disappear, and yes, there are people like that that exist and the difference is that most of them assume that anybody involved with the supernatural is the bad guy, they don't make contact. Not only is Dresden the exception because he's reaching across the aisle, so to speak to work with Murphy, but Murphy's the exception because she's reaching out to work with Dresden. There's something more going on there but the only side of the story we get to see is Harry's side of the story.
Oh, they've noticed it, they just don't understand what it is that they're seeing. It's being chalked up to crime waves, gang violence, etc.Fair enough, but explosions would be bumped up the rank to "terrorism," which would get feds involved, and none of the parties involved want that.
Mr. Death,Cool, I think we're getting somewhere.
Great answers; love your reasoning. I agree with a good amount of what you said above. I want to keep this a bit short, as I can’t keep writing gigantic essays. But I do want to say this for Karrin: assuming that my WAG isn’t correct and she isn’t being somehow subtly influenced by something else, I think that she’s a pretty amazing character. She’s human, like everyone else, and makes some mistakes, but every single one is done with the best of intentions. She goes through a great amount of personal growth, and Skin Game shows it. She’s probably in the top three or four of my favorite DF characters.
One: I want to address a few of the things that you said about who should and should not have possession of the swords. Much of the responses that you’ve given state that Dresden shouldn’t be the custodian of the swords because a sword wielded for the wrong reasons is incredibly fragile. The one thing, though, is that after Grave Peril, Dresden has never, never, NEVER had any inclination to wield a Sword. He’s very vocally against it. When he talks about the Knights, it’s not uncommon for him to drop in lines such as “And that’s why I will never be a knight.” Even when his daughter is almost certainly going to die and he crosses every line in Changes, he doesn’t pick up the sword. He gives them to others who he thinks would best use them.You're right that Harry never seems to intend to use a Sword himself, but that's not the only way they can be in danger. He could give them to the wrong person (he blames himself for this at the end of Skin Game). Or he may hoard them and not give them out to use when they're really needed. Or he could jealously hide them, then get his ass killed for real and leave them lost.
In Cold Days, Harry’s in a position that he might, in a rage, do some sort of violent thing without thinking. However, that kind of rash thinking doesn't put the sword in danger if it's sitting at home in the popcorn tin by the door. To go from custodian of the sword to wielder of the sword requires that Harry must be carrying it on him, or already be planning on using it. To do either would mean that Harry would have had to make the choice to suddenly be a wielder – something that he would certainly not do in Cold Days.
If you can show me where, post Grave Peril, Harry considers using one of the Swords in his possession, I’ll admit that there really is a danger here and that his custodianship would put the swords in danger. But I don’t believe such a thing exists.
Two: You ask how I could believe that being a custodian of the swords is not dependent on one’s own actions and moral code. The difference is in how you define the word “should.” When we ask the question of “Should Dresden be custodian?” there’s two different ways we can take it.I'd argue that Harry is definitely custodian on his own merits -- fighting alongside the three Knights to stop the Denarians, for instance. Being able to get a shadow of the Fallen into a Heel Face Turn. Just generally being a good man standing against the darkness.
You and I, and Karrin and Dresden, and any mortal can debate whether someone should or should not have something. The US debates all the time on whether people should or should not have firearms, and to what extent, and under what permits. There’s ultimately no right or wrong answer; only general consensus. To us, “Should” means “I judge that this is the best possible choice, given all we know.”
The swords, though, are artifacts which are powered directly by the will of TWG. They are effective when their weilders are on mission, ineffective other times. While TWG is not the same thing as the Christian God that people in the real world believe in, he has the same essential attributes and is intended to be a representation of the real thing. When we’re talking about a being who is omnipotent and omniscient, who has an ineffable plan for the world, “Should” takes on a different meaning. “Should” means “This is where TWG would want it to go.”
Dresden never is custodian of the sword on his own merits. He doesn’t earn the right to be keeper of the sword. Remember this bit from The Warrior, during the confrontation between Father Douglas and Michael:Dresden’s not custodian because he earns it. It even seems at some times, to some people, that it must be the working of evil that he has them at all. And I know that in this moment, it seems like Harry shouldn’t hold them, either. At least, it does to Karrin. But “should” for mortals is not “should” for TWG.
Three: You ask me about the difference between Sanya and Michael. The difference comes in their particular creeds: Michael is Catholic, and Sanya is agnostic. I don’t mean by this that Michael is somehow better than Sanya, but being Catholic means that he regularly goes to TWG in prayer and seeks his guidance on many things. Sanya, on the other hand, candidly states that the Archangel Michael and Uriel could be aliens or some sort of delusion. Obviously, he’s still a Knight; TWG is sponsoring him just as much as he is Michael. But Sanya’s actions do not reflect a proactive seeking of their will; rather, a reactive following of commands. He doesn’t pray for help and guidance and support; rather, he acts as he sees fit and remarks that if TWG has an issue with his actions, that he’s never come to him about it. This also reflects him giving the sword back to Dresden in Changes: Sanya believes that if Uriel has a problem, then he should step in.The fact that Sanya is a knight I'd say puts him on equal footing with Michael. Just because he doesn't literally pray doesn't mean he is somehow out of the loop.
The difference is small. But when we’re talking about angels, beings whose primary responsibility is to preserve the freedom of will and the ability to choose, there’s a big difference between a man seeking guidance and choosing based off of that guidance versus choosing first and assuming that divine intervention will step in and stop him if he chose wrong.
Oh, and here I went and wrote an essay again. *sigh*
Fair enough, but explosions would be bumped up the rank to "terrorism," which would get feds involved, and none of the parties involved want that.Devil's advocate on this, but while I dont doubt that Terrorism would be mentioned if explosives get used, I could see Drug Cartel's or even Local Organized Crime as getting credit, if only as possible ways it might be left in local jurisdictions.
Devil's advocate on this, but while I dont doubt that Terrorism would be mentioned if explosives get used, I could see Drug Cartel's or even Local Organized Crime as getting credit, if only as possible ways it might be left in local jurisdictions.True, but it's more or less a moot point, anyway. Murphy outright states that Harry's office is the last time there's been an explosion in the city, so that is apparently a tactic that the Fomor, White Court, Marcone and the BFS are simply not using.
Who is "she" Murphy or Mab?
. Read pages 26 through 30 of Skin Game, Murphy gives Harry the big lecture about isolating himself from his friends... Her attitude is that Harry purposely did that, and she is worried about him.. If she knew the skinny, she wouldn't have given the lecture..
Apparently he didn't lay anything out and Murphy didn't ask, again read pages 26 -30.. A] No, it appears that Harry didn't mention Mab.. B] From the text, no, Murphy didn't ask, she assumed some psychological explanation about Harry isolating himself on the island from his friends and family on purpose.. It may not be a lack of caring, but it is idiotic amateur psychologist at work.. C] Bingo, if she truly trusted him to have his secrets... Then she'd truly trust him to have a good reason for those secrets, ergo not give him shit in the form of a guilt trip about his friends being so concerned because he purposely isolated himself on Demonreach for a year... Just a "missed you Harry what's the plan?" Would do nicely.if she truly trusted him...
I'm in agreement with you about Murphy's reaction to Harry in Cold Days. She is somewhat cold and her first words are definitely accusatory. "I hear you belong to Mab now." I just don't see that attitude carrying over to Skin Game.Heck, I don't think it even carries over to the rest of Cold Days. It's really just that conversation where Murphy is cold to Harry -- afterward, they have a moment, and she's a lot more supportive of him.
Now the swords are a separate matter. I don't think Murphy was wrong to keep the swords in her possession in Cold Days, however that doesn't mean she was right to assume she would remain their custodian in the future or that she would know when the right time had come to use them.I don't know how far she assumed she'd keep them; when it comes to the Swords, "the foreseeable future" is murky as hell. Most likely, she was waiting for some kind of sign. In the end, though, Amoracchius was exactly where it needed to be, and Fidelacchius ended up new and improved and in the hands of a new Knight.
However, even the swords are a secondary matter in the greater consideration of Karrin Murphy's personality. She was definitely damaged goods in Cold Days. Butters could see that and told Harry. Also, it seems to me that when Murphy tried to analyze Harry in Cold Days she was projecting her own situation and fears of where she was headed, into Harry's situation. (Relevant Quote below.) I think this is true even if some of her analysis was correct. I don't think she was the same judgmental person in Skin Game and despite the debacle with the sword she appeared to be getting better. Now that could all change in Peace Talks, but we will have to wait and see.I'm basically in agreement with you here. Overall in Skin Game, she's much more together than we'd seen her in Ghost Story or Cold Days. I don't get the people who talk about her falling into despair, considering her last scene is her joking and laughing with Butters and Harry, and then making out with Harry.
You're right that Harry never seems to intend to use a Sword himself, but that's not the only way they can be in danger. He could give them to the wrong person (he blames himself for this at the end of Skin Game). Or he may hoard them and not give them out to use when they're really needed. Or he could jealously hide them, then get his ass killed for real and leave them lost.
It's not just the danger that he, himself, could use them wrong -- it's that under the mantle's influence, he's lost the perspective and mindset that made him a good choice for custodian in the first place.
Mab’s eyes snapped to Demonreach. “I have his oath, Ancient One. What he has given is mine by right, and you may not gainsay it. He is mine to shape as I please.”
And a voice - a very calm, very gentile, very rational voice, whispered in my ear: “Lies. Mab cannot change who you are.”
I'd argue that Harry is definitely custodian on his own merits -- fighting alongside the three Knights to stop the Denarians, for instance. Being able to get a shadow of the Fallen into a Heel Face Turn. Just generally being a good man standing against the darkness.
And whether one should have possession of the Swords isn't a permanent thing, whether we're talking custodians or Knights. Murphy, for instance, was apparently the absolutely correct person to wield Fidelacchius at Chichen Itza. But in a different time and a different place, she is not.
Just because Harry is the proper custodian at points A and C does not mean he is automatically the proper custodian at point B. The Harry in Cold Days is not the Harry we've been following for the previous 13 books -- he has to get back to that point, and before he does, there are things he is temporarily disqualified from.
The fact that Sanya is a knight I'd say puts him on equal footing with Michael. Just because he doesn't literally pray doesn't mean he is somehow out of the loop.
The three Knights operate differently, yes. But I don't see that as reason to discount what any of them say about the disposition of the Swords.
Or to put it another way, if Sanya was wrong in his assessment of Dresden, then Uriel should have said so.
“Karrin,” I said, and held out the sword. Sanya’s eyebrows climbed toward the roof.
“I’ve… been offered that sword before, Harry,” she said quietly. “Nothing’s changed since then.”
“I’m not asking you to take up the mantle of a Knight,” I said quietly. “I want to entrust it to you for this night, for this purpose. This sword was made to fight darkness, and there’s going to be plenty to go around. Take it up, just until my girl is safe.”
Murphy frowned. She looked at Sanya and said, “Can he do this?”
“Can you?” Sanya asked, looking at me.
“I was entrusted as the sword’s guardian,” I said calmly. “Exactly what am I supposed to do with it if it is not my place to choose the sword’s bearer to the best of my ability?”
Sanya considered that for a moment, then shrugged. “Seems implicit to me. They gave you the power of choice when they entrusted you with the swords. One of those things they seemed to tell you without ever saying anything that sounds remotely related.”
“If you were sure you should have this choice, that would convince me you shouldn’t have it” (paraphrased) is more a state of his personal belief, rather than an ironclad ruleIt is actually a nice piece of foreshadowing especially if you combine it with Harry's reaction in Skin Game when Michael gives Harry the sword.
Mr. Death! Glad to hear back from you.Yeah, last couple weeks have been crazy. Wedding (not mine), honeymoon (also not mine, I was conscripted into grilling by the bride), and other stuff.
There is a difference, psychologically, between impulsive action and reasoned choice that I think you’re ignoring here. The Winter Mantle impacts a person’s baser instincts, but doesn’t change who they are (per Uriel). It causes Harry to have these moments of intense anger and aggression, which you’ve repeatedly held as examples that he isn’t in a fit mental condition to be custodian of the swords.The Mantle doesn't stop at just poking the Id. Harry as a whole is impacted and influenced by it -- Harry has a strong enough will to resist it and remain himself, but it's a battle to do so during Cold Days.
The problem is, Cold Days and Skin Game show nothing but Dresden having these sudden bursts of Id, then asserting his choice and free will to choose whether to follow them or indulge in them. Every time. The only time that he ever does choose to follow the mantle’s influence, it is a reasoned choice in order to fight Maeve, and Harry also chooses to stop it when he realizes how ineffective it is.
My argument to you was that the swords were only in danger if they were left suspect to these bursts of Id; the primate brain reacting before the rational brain can assert itself. I posited that the only circumstance that this would happen in is if Harry was carrying the Sword or chose to be a wielder of the Sword – two things that would only happen if Harry had already choose poorly, which was something that the Mantle wouldn’t influence him to do.
You countered my argument by giving several examples of ways in which Harry could harm the swords which also would not happen by the Winter Mantle amping his primate brain, but only by Dresden making a conscious choice to do so. I don’t see any of your examples, including the out-of-universe example, as successfully countering my argument. Unless you can find an example or provide an argument as to why my reasoning is faulty, I see my argument as standing.My point was, if the Mantle did succeed in getting to Harry, it would change his choices. Harry, as he is now, is not someone who will hoard the Swords out of a need to possess them; the Mantle, if he couldn't control it, could turn him into someone who would.
First – are you conceding to my initial argument, that the swords have an intended holder and owner by TWG, per the evidence given? Your comments seem ambiguous of that.I don't think that the Swords had an intended holder at any given time was the issue, but yes. My point, though, is that the intended holder changes based on circumstance. And mortals and free will get into the picture, which only makes things even more murky.
Second – I do agree that custodianship isn’t permanent, but for different reasons. When Harry enters into custodianship of each sword, he is given the sword and tasked to give it to the next bearer. I’m not sure if TWG has temporal omniscience or not – Michael claims that he does, but that may be his Catholicism talking - but it’s clear that his servants do not; Uriel indicates that the angels operate by extremely accurate prediction of human behavior which only occasionally surprises them. At the very least, Uriel’s reaction to Dresden’s comment about predestination in The Warrior leads me to believe that the Dresdenverses’ TWG does not include predestination, and the choosing of Harry as custodian is a calculated effort which predicts a likely end and maximum amount of good.Fair. If people can change, then their fitness as a custodian can change. Assuming predestination isn't in play, I'd say keeping the Swords from Harry is less he "would" have put them in danger and more he "could" have. Always in motion, the future is -- but Harry himself has noted that the Swords and their bearers are less invincible when they're off mission, and given his comments later in the book, Harry clearly wanted to use the Swords in Cold Days.
If Harry were to ‘surprise’ Heaven by choosing something different and unexpected, assuming that such a thing is possible, I think that TWG could easily decide that he is no longer fit to hold the swords. However, if such a thing were to happen I would not expect Uriel or Gabriel or Michael (the angelic one) to suddenly show up to take the sword away; these are beings whose stated primary objective is to preserve the freedom of choice among mortals. Rather, it seems logical that they would influence other outside forces which might have the effect of bringing other mortals into the mix, who would make their own choices to take the swords from that person.
…. Which is, in effect, exactly what does happen in Cold Days. So in retrospect, I can’t really say whether it is within TWG’s will or not for the swords to remain with Harry; Murph’s presence and choice overrides that. Nor can I say that if Murph was subtly influenced to be present and in the mindset to appoint herself custodian of the swords, that it was because Harry would have put them in danger. It may have been as part of an elaborate set of circumstances in order to make sure that Butters was appointed by Harry as knight. But yes, I will concede that just because it is TWG’s will for Harry to be custodian of the swords through the books, it does not necessarily follow that TWG could not change his mind.
However, it does not follow that ‘possible’ goes straight into ‘likely’. Uriel is with Dresden through almost every step of his change into Winter Knight – from when his back’s broken, to the guidance he gives before his resurrection, to his actions in Skin Game. It’s clear from Uriel’s interactions at the end of Ghost Story that Harry acted exactly as Uriel had hoped, and Uriel’s chosen seven words of truth to offset the seven words of lies are angled specifically to give Harry hope and to encourage him to stand strong against the darkness and to not give himself up to the temptations he is about to endure. It’s no secret what the Winter Mantle does to a person; Lloyd Slate was no different from the myriad of Winter Knights who came before him. Do you think that Uriel would be surprised at Dresden’s actions in Cold Days? Does any of those violent outbursts look like an act of conscious choice to act against the probable flow of events?Surprised? No; as you say, he has all the information necessary to predict how Dresden would react to the Mantle; or rather, to predict the myriad ways he could have reacted to it.
Consider this: we see evidence that Harry is already influenced by the mantle, though not so strongly, in Changes. The Winter Knight chose Karrin and Susan to wield the swords in Chichen Itza, to positive result. A knight of the cross came by afterwards and appointed the Winter Knight again to be the custodian of the swords. Is it likely at all that Uriel and Sanya are somehow confused or mislead as to what the mantle does to a person? Could you see Uriel watching Harry in the fight with Andi, saying “Oh crap – I didn’t realize that was what the Mantle did. OK, better call Murphy over to babysit the swords for a while.”?Harry received Power for the task in Changes, but he doesn't get the Mantle until after.
“I will,” I said. “With a condition.”
“Speak it.”
“That before my service begins, you restore my body to health.
That you grant me time enough to rescue my daughter and take
her to safety, and strength and knowledge enough to succeed.
And you give me your word that you will never command me to lift
my hand against those I love.”
...
You must understand, wizard. Once you are my
Knight, once this last quest of yours is complete, you are mine
...
“You made a deal,” Murphy said.
“Yeah, I did. For Maggie, I did.” I looked around the room. “I’m
me until this is all over. That was part of the deal.
I can’t. It just doesn’t seem likely. It’s clear from Ghost Story that Harry acted just as Uriel expected him to, and the only improbable act of choice that Dresden exerts in Cold Days and beyond is the choice to fight the mantle – also something that Uriel’s banking on. I think that Murphy’s guilty of doing the same thing that Father Douglas attempted to do in The Warrior – stripped the chosen custodian of the swords because they trusted the judgment of their own eyes above the judgment of beings who can see far better and anticipate all eventualities.Father Douglas tried to take the Swords through murder, hostages, tazing and threatening to blow up an innocent teenage girl.
They are on equal footing, and it has nothing to do with literal prayer. It has everything to do with how a person makes their choice.The Knights work differently than others. They do have a direct line; whether they pray or just think about what they do, that guidance is there.
Human beings are fallible beings. Michael acknowledges this and looks for guidance before making a decision if he can. Sanya follows given commands and assumes that an angel will speak up if he goes wrong. That’s dangerous when we’re talking about beings who don’t act to contradict the expressed choice of an individual. Uriel literally can’t step in when a mortal makes a choice. That’s why he had to transubstantiate himself in Skin Game; that’s why the angel of death in Ghost Story couldn’t intervene when Forthill lay dying.
Besides, let’s take this argument in a different way. You state that Sanya’s stated opinion on a person’s certainty of being able to be a custodian of the Swords should be taken as a literal truth, and if a person is certain that they should be the custodian, then they definitely should not be one. By your logic, then, Harry should not have given the swords to Karrin and Susan in Changes.The issue isn't about "being certain that one is right in their ability to choose," it's being certain that they are entitled to have the Swords. They're not talking about certainty in what Harry does, but certainty in what Harry is.
Murphy and Sanya question whether Dresden can just dole out the swords to people without calling them to be knights, and Dresden is dead certain that he can. If being certain that one is right in their ability to choose means that one cannot therefore be a chooser, then that would also be stating that Dresden was wrong to choose Karrin at Chichen Itza – something which you yourself have acknowledged was not the case. It just seems very likely that Sanya’s statement of “If you were sure you should have this choice, that would convince me you shouldn’t have it” (paraphrased) is more a state of his personal belief, rather than an ironclad rule
It is actually a nice piece of foreshadowing especially if you combine it with Harry's reaction in Skin Game when Michael gives Harry the sword.Agreed. We have two scenes of Harry accepting the Sword when it's offered to him and having deep reservations about it; each time, those reservations reinforce that he's the right person for the job because he understands the weight of that responsibility.
There is a difference, psychologically, between impulsive action and reasoned choice that I think you’re ignoring here. The Winter Mantle impacts a person’s baser instincts, but doesn’t change who they are (per Uriel). It causes Harry to have these moments of intense anger and aggression, which you’ve repeatedly held as examples that he isn’t in a fit mental condition to be custodian of the swords.
The problem is, Cold Days and Skin Game show nothing but Dresden having these sudden bursts of Id, then asserting his choice and free will to choose whether to follow them or indulge in them. Every time. The only time that he ever does choose to follow the mantle’s influence, it is a reasoned choice in order to fight Maeve, and Harry also chooses to stop it when he realizes how ineffective it is.
My argument to you was that the swords were only in danger if they were left suspect to these bursts of Id; the primate brain reacting before the rational brain can assert itself. I posited that the only circumstance that this would happen in is if Harry was carrying the Sword or chose to be a wielder of the Sword – two things that would only happen if Harry had already choose poorly, which was something that the Mantle wouldn’t influence him to do.
You countered my argument by giving several examples of ways in which Harry could harm the swords which also would not happen by the Winter Mantle amping his primate brain, but only by Dresden making a conscious choice to do so. I don’t see any of your examples, including the out-of-universe example, as successfully countering my argument. Unless you can find an example or provide an argument as to why my reasoning is faulty, I see my argument as standing.
Second – I do agree that custodianship isn’t permanent, but for different reasons. When Harry enters into custodianship of each sword, he is given the sword and tasked to give it to the next bearer. I’m not sure if TWG has temporal omniscience or not – Michael claims that he does, but that may be his Catholicism talking - but it’s clear that his servants do not; Uriel indicates that the angels operate by extremely accurate prediction of human behavior which only occasionally surprises them. At the very least, Uriel’s reaction to Dresden’s comment about predestination in The Warrior leads me to believe that the Dresdenverses’ TWG does not include predestination, and the choosing of Harry as custodian is a calculated effort which predicts a likely end and maximum amount of good.I think it is more of a contract between the custodian and Heaven... The rep, in this case Uriel trusts in Harry's judgement, that he will have enough insight to give the right Sword, to the right person, at the right time, be it for just a few hours or something long term.
If Harry were to ‘surprise’ Heaven by choosing something different and unexpected, assuming that such a thing is possible, I think that TWG could easily decide that he is no longer fit to hold the swords. However, if such a thing were to happen I would not expect Uriel or Gabriel or Michael (the angelic one) to suddenly show up to take the sword away; these are beings whose stated primary objective is to preserve the freedom of choice among mortals. Rather, it seems logical that they would influence other outside forces which might have the effect of bringing other mortals into the mix, who would make their own choices to take the swords from that person.
…. Which is, in effect, exactly what does happen in Cold Days. So in retrospect, I can’t really say whether it is within TWG’s will or not for the swords to remain with Harry; Murph’s presence and choice overrides that. Nor can I say that if Murph was subtly influenced to be present and in the mindset to appoint herself custodian of the swords, that it was because Harry would have put them in danger. It may have been as part of an elaborate set of circumstances in order to make sure that Butters was appointed by Harry as knight. But yes, I will concede that just because it is TWG’s will for Harry to be custodian of the swords through the books, it does not necessarily follow that TWG could not change his mind.
However, it does not follow that ‘possible’ goes straight into ‘likely’. Uriel is with Dresden through almost every step of his change into Winter Knight – from when his back’s broken, to the guidance he gives before his resurrection, to his actions in Skin Game. It’s clear from Uriel’s interactions at the end of Ghost Story that Harry acted exactly as Uriel had hoped, and Uriel’s chosen seven words of truth to offset the seven words of lies are angled specifically to give Harry hope and to encourage him to stand strong against the darkness and to not give himself up to the temptations he is about to endure. It’s no secret what the Winter Mantle does to a person; Lloyd Slate was no different from the myriad of Winter Knights who came before him. Do you think that Uriel would be surprised at Dresden’s actions in Cold Days? Does any of those violent outbursts look like an act of conscious choice to act against the probable flow of events?
Consider this: we see evidence that Harry is already influenced by the mantle, though not so strongly, in Changes. The Winter Knight chose Karrin and Susan to wield the swords in Chichen Itza, to positive result. A knight of the cross came by afterwards and appointed the Winter Knight again to be the custodian of the swords. Is it likely at all that Uriel and Sanya are somehow confused or mislead as to what the mantle does to a person? Could you see Uriel watching Harry in the fight with Andi, saying “Oh crap – I didn’t realize that was what the Mantle did. OK, better call Murphy over to babysit the swords for a while.”?
Besides, let’s take this argument in a different way. You state that Sanya’s stated opinion on a person’s certainty of being able to be a custodian of the Swords should be taken as a literal truth, and if a person is certain that they should be the custodian, then they definitely should not be one. By your logic, then, Harry should not have given the swords to Karrin and Susan in Changes.
Murphy and Sanya question whether Dresden can just dole out the swords to people without calling them to be knights, and Dresden is dead certain that he can. If being certain that one is right in their ability to choose means that one cannot therefore be a chooser, then that would also be stating that Dresden was wrong to choose Karrin at Chichen Itza – something which you yourself have acknowledged was not the case. It just seems very likely that Sanya’s statement of “If you were sure you should have this choice, that would convince me you shouldn’t have it” (paraphrased) is more a state of his personal belief, rather than an ironclad rule
I followed him through the halls of the enormous church until we got to the staff's kitchen. He went to the fridge, opened it, and came out with a bottle of bourbon. He poured some into a coffee cup, drank it down, and poured some more. He offered me the bottle.Clearly, Sanya gets his divine instruction from bourbon , not vodka. :p
No, thanks. Aren't you supposed to drink vodka?
Aren't you supposed to wear a pointy hat and ride on a flying broomstick?
Touche, I said.
It is actually a nice piece of foreshadowing especially if you combine it with Harry's reaction in Skin Game when Michael gives Harry the swordI've thought so. And I also think it's telling that in the first time that Michael offers Dresden the sword in skin game, he doesn't offer it as a custodian - he offers Dresden to use it as a wielder, to save his daughter. And Harry says no. I think that it's in this moment that Harry really proves that he could, one day, be a wielder. It's not like he's faithless. Remember that he can burn red Court vampires with his amulet through the power of belief in magic. In this "God is Three Blind Men and an elephant" universe, I think that counts for something.
Yes, as Michael pointed out at the end of Skin Game, Harry's judgement isn't imparted by the mantle.That was skin game, not cold days. The whole point of cold days is to show the reader how dangerous that kind of power is and how close Harry came to loosing it not just in obvious ways, those are easier to resist, but also in more subtle ways. It would not have made a good story if it was not a struggle with serious risks.
Exactly, some seem to think because the mantle magnified Harry's sexual urges he has turned into a rapist... However he hasn't raped anyone, and has done his best to get these urges under control as quickly as possible, as opposed to indulging in them.Not just the sexual urges. Things like possession, power, pecking order.
Clearly Heaven doesn't think it applies either, because at the end of Changes, Harry is Winter Knight, yet Uriel wants the Swords returned to his care knowing full well the influence of the mantle upon Harry's more basic urges...Knowing full well that Harry would die and who would end up with them. And knowing full well that that influence would only start for real after his return.
The only danger I could see is possibly Harry using one of the Swords to get his own selfish way, but that is totally out of character for him.. My theory is though the Mantle magnifies urges it can only go so far if the holder's character runs contrary to the urge...Out of character is exactly the point. The whole book is about a possible change of character. Mab and Bob think it will and they speak out of experience. Uriel says Mab can not do it but Harry can, like every human, change himself because of whatever influence and that is the same to Mab and Bob. Mother Summer tells us that Harry can stay himself but that it will be difficult and that most people fail. I think her opinion is most realistic.
Nor does Heaven apparently since at the end of Skin Game he is still the Winter Knight, yet Michael is handing into his care the remaining Holy Sword.That is after cold days. That book has a totally different athmosphere that is difficult to ignore.
Not only that but Harry is allowed to have some of the most powerful weapons imagined, so powerful that only those clever enough to have broken though all of the protections of Hades vault is allowed to have them.Nicodemus is allowed to have one of them too.
I think it is more of a contract between the custodian and Heaven... The rep, in this case Uriel trusts in Harry's judgement, that he will have enough insight to give the right Sword, to the right person, at the right time, be it for just a few hours or something long term.Not interfering is a bit misleading. There is a lot of subtle interference going on. Like when Harry threw fid the right persons did and did not catch it.
Actually I see that a bit different, because of free will I don't see Heaven interfering.. Just like when Murphy made her poor choices and a Holy Sword got broken, Uriel not only didn't interfere, I don't believe he could as Nic gleefully reminded him. I think it is the same with a custodian, if he or she chose the wrong person or the wrong purpose, free will, it just has to play itself out..
However I doubt that the Almighty did, since it is emphasized a couple of times in Skin Game is that the custodianship was something that Murphy took upon herself of her own free will. Heaven didn't chose her for the job, and she was a bit less than truthful with Harry about that.Harry trusted her with them and she did her best. That was all she could do.
Again in her arrogance as Nic put it she had more faith in her own judgement than that of Heaven... Which did lead to a Sword being broken.. She knew why she shouldn't bring or wield a Holy Sword, but she trusted more in her own judgement..So breaking and entering would have been ok without a werewolf? What about ringing a bell?
I doubt that Uriel would be surprised, however he knows Harry well, just as Michael does, he knows the type of man Harry is at his core, and trusts him.
Again, I think many readers are getting the fight with Andi out of perspective... While Harry used poor judgement to break into Butters' apartment in the first place, he had no idea that Butters was now living with a werewolf... He did not have any idea that anyone was home, so was totally surprised when he got attacked by a wolf... He defended himself, perhaps a bit more vigorously and with sexual overtones because of the mantle, but when he realized what and who, he stopped and felt terrible about it..
Actually if Murphy were in his shoes and surprised in that matter, while not having mantle enhancements I am sure she would have fought back with equal vigor and may have done more damage to Andi as a marshal artist...Murphy would not have been in his position because she would never have broken in in the first place, she would have used the bell.
Yes, as Michael pointed out at the end of Skin Game, Harry's judgement isn't imparted by the mantle.Again after cold days. Cold days is not really about the big battle scenes, it is about Harry's internal struggle and to ignore that is to rob the book of its meaning.
So in my opinion that incident did not disqualify Harry to be the Holy Sword custodian... Also if the mantle was making Harry a monster, he could have just taken the Swords instead of backing off when Murphy told him she was in charge of them now.That is a very binary view. It is about free will versus nature, how more power makes it more difficult to stay yourself. How it usually ends and how avoidable that end is. About choices made under duress and influence that change your very being.
That is Sanya's stated opinion, but at the same time he isn't about to over ride Uriel's decision, or the decision of the person to whom the Swords were given to be cared for.And Harry would be dead. Break that thing any time to save a loved one.
And Harry was right as confirmed by Michael and I believe Uriel.. The Swords are given out as needed to the one who can best use them at the time... Sometimes that is only for a few hours, other times to become full blown Knights.. Which again emphasizes that Murphy was in no way their rightful appointed custodian... In Changes Harry chose her with great effect to wield one for the night.. In Skin Game she clearly states why she shouldn't wield a Sword, good thinking and on target... But then gives herself one of the Swords to wield anyway, knowing clearly that she shouldn't.. Now love may have muddied her judgement, and hard as it would have been to have left the Sword be, that is what she should have done..
"Whatever you do, do it for love. If you keep to that, your path will
never wander so far from the light that you can never return."
I don't know how far she assumed she'd keep them; when it comes to the Swords, "the foreseeable future" is murky as hell. Most likely, she was waiting for some kind of sign. In the end, though, Amoracchius was exactly where it needed to be, and Fidelacchius ended up new and improved and in the hands of a new Knight.
I don't think that would work at all. Mainly because Murphy has always been a front line type of fighter, prided herself on that fact. That was a lot of her charm, not just steadying Harry, but pulling his cookies out of the fire on several occasions.. I doubt she'd ever be happy as a desk jockey...
She does take pride in it, but as long as you are a normal human you must retire eventually.Ya, having come from such a saturated Cop family, I have to think she is well familiar with the eventual transition. Whether she liked it or not, she knew it was coming and likely prepared herself at least to some degree.
Any professional i.e: a cop, a soldier, an athelete etc, no matter how much they take pride in their profession and skills, they will have to stop in the end due to old age if not for anything else.
In other words, this pride issue Murphy is facing is an issue every single normal person will have to face. If everyone else has to face it, so does Murphy. It is only fair.
If she is crippled when she is 25, maybe it will be a hard blow. The flower will be wilted before it's even bloom, so to speak. But Murphy is in her mid fourties. Sure, the retirement was forced on to her a few years early, but considering the circumstances she couldn't continue as she had much longer anyway, or she'll likely be digging her own grave, and I strongly suspect Murphy herself realize it. With her injury, she can now retire with a clear conscience.
Allow me to explain what I meant in more detail. Murphy's attitude was rather inflexible. She appeared to have no doubts. She didn't say that she had concerns that needed to be assuaged or that the matter of the swords might be explored at a future time. Murphy could have even told Harry that he had told her where the swords were hidden, she had taken possession of them when Harry disappeared, and until she received a sign someone else was meant to hold them, she would assume she was meant to. Isn't this what you suggest she may have been thinking? Also, it's not a question of how events eventually played out, it's how Murphy handled the situation. A person can make the right move, but do so for the wrong reasons or perhaps I should say, do so in an offensive or capricious way.Harry's own behavior matters and influences how Murphy approaches things. She had to be inflexible there -- putting it as you say, Harry would've been able to argue. ("You told me where the swords were hidden and I took them when you disappeared," "Well, I'm back now, I say give them back.") She wasn't looking for an argument. She doesn't have to tell him everything she's thinking and feeling -- she has a goal in the conversation, and she's acting toward that goal.
So I'll get to the big meaty response in 12-18 hours, but I just wanted to give a refutation and an observation.Hey, in God, all booze is equal.
Clearly, Sanya gets his divine instruction from bourbon , not vodka. :p
Second,I imagine for Harry, it's also hard to remain truly faithless when he's literally spoken personally to an Angel on several occasions.
I've thought so. And I also think it's telling that in the first time that Michael offers Dresden the sword in skin game, he doesn't offer it as a custodian - he offers Dresden to use it as a wielder, to save his daughter. And Harry says no. I think that it's in this moment that Harry really proves that he could, one day, be a wielder. It's not like he's faithless. Remember that he can burn red Court vampires with his amulet through the power of belief in magic. In this "God is Three Blind Men and an elephant" universe, I think that counts for something.
When you think about it, confronting the Winter Knight alone, unarmed, when you're like half his size? That's either gutsy as hell or very trusting that he's not actually going to hurt you.Yes, that. She took serious risks there for him.
Yes, that. She took serious risks there for him.Either took a serious and real risk with a potentially out of control monster, or took a big personal step forward confronting her own fears regarding the possibility of such. Either way it was gutsy in my book.
Harry received Power for the task in Changes, but he doesn't get the Mantle until after.
Father Douglas tried to take the Swords through murder, hostages, tazing and threatening to blow up an innocent teenage girl.
So, at least to my reckoning, Harry having the Swords in Cold Days into Skin Game tends to end worse for everyone involved. Murphy, consciously or not, ended up putting the Swords where they needed to be to do the greatest good.
I grunted. “That smells an awful lot like predestination to me. What if those people choose something different?”
“It’s a complex issue,” Jake admitted. “But think of the course of the future as, oh, flowing water. If you know the lay of the land you can make a good guess where it’s going. Now, someone can always come along and dig a ditch and change that flow of water, but honestly, you’d be shocked how seldom people truly choose to exercise their will within their lives.”
Heaven didn't chose her for the job, and she was a bit less than truthful with Harry about that. Again in her arrogance as Nic put it she had more faith in her own judgement than that of Heaven... Which did lead to a Sword being broken.. She knew why she shouldn't bring or wield a Holy Sword, but she trusted more in her own judgement..
So breaking and entering would have been ok without a werewolf? What about ringing a bell?
…..
Murphy would not have been in his position because she would never have broken in in the first place, she would have used the bell.
Nicodemus is allowed to have one of them too.
Again after cold days. Cold days is not really about the big battle scenes, it is about Harry's internal struggle and to ignore that is to rob the book of its meaning.
As for Harry as a wielder... in the right circumstances, maybe. I don't think he's cut out for a permanent position, though. I don't see him wanting to save the Denarians any more than Murphy is. Maybe even a little less willing.I don't know. That's where he is right now, sure. But I can't help thinking that he's being prepared in much the same way that Butters was. I've re-read Dresden's fight with Hannah several times, and it's impossible not to notice that Harry does exactly the role of a Knight here: he confronts her, offers her a choice, tries as hard as he can to help her step away -all to GREAT personal risk- and then defeats her when he had no other choice. That empathy could, over time, become a seed that brings him to recognize and want to help others trapped.
Harry breaking into Butters’ presumed-empty apartment is not out of character for Private Investigator Harry. Heck, he commits breaking-and-entering several times in Dead Beat – first to the Radio Shack, and second to the Field Museum. Sorry Arian, but I have to agree with Mira’s statement, at least in reference to Andi.Butters was his friend. If Harry had behaved as a friend a lot of things would have been different.
Bob snorted. “Which is why the first thing you did, when you got back to town, was call all of your friends and immediately tell them you needed their help, and trust them to help you.”
“It wasn’t like the first thing you did was abuse one of your friends and inflict property damage on his house and steal a powerful magical counselor whose loyalties are transferrable to whoever happens to be holding an old skull—presumably so that you’d have a lackey who would agree with whatever you said instead of give you a hard time about it. And the only beings you’re allowing to help you are a bunch of tiny faeries who worship the ground you walk on because you buy them pizza.” Bob made a skeptical sound. “I can see how important trust is to you, boss.”
Harry received Power for the task in Changes, but he doesn't get the Mantle until after.
Yeah, my bad. Harry being angry in Changes was pretty much situation-driven. Doesn’t take much for a dad to be really angry when his little girl’s in danger. I should know.
So, at least to my reckoning, Harry having the Swords in Cold Days into Skin Game tends to end worse for everyone involved. Murphy, consciously or not, ended up putting the Swords where they needed to be to do the greatest good.
Dear God, you’re right. Why did I not see this earlier? I mean, look at this:
We keep talking about whether the swords would or would not be in danger if kept in Harry’s possession, and the kinds of harm he could get into if he went bad. But looking at it retrospectively, we see that this argument is moot when compared to what actually transpired: Harry would not have abused the swords during the events of Cold Days, and would have no opportunity to in the period of time between CD and SG. Therefore, the only immediate consequence of Karrin not returning the swords when Dresden reappears is that the swords are in Chicago, and not locked away on Demonreach.
To return to the original argument: Was it right for Murphy to take the swords from Harry? In this case it seems so on both the mortal and immortal levels. I agree that it was right on the immortal level because the Archangels needed the swords in Chicago for Skin Game. And I echo the Gatekeeper’s words to LaFortier to satisfy the mortal justification: “You question Dresden’s loyalty and his ability. You imply that only a bad seed can grow from bad soil. Your concerns are understandable, and if correct, then Dresden poses a major threat to the council.”He did say that, but with Murphy it is still a matter of her trusting her judgement over that of Heaven, and what bothers me she knows that Harry doesn't have faith in a formal religious sense, by implying that she did, so she knew better than him.. He didn't question her logic... But not only did she brow beat him a bit on this point, she was lying to him about that.
One area in which Murph does go wrong, though, is that she then assumes that she has the right to dole them out to people who she thinks could use them best. I stand by what Michael says at the end of Skin Game: Despite Harry’s clear inclination he thought Murphy could wield a sword, he never actually did call her to be a knight, and she appointed herself despite the fact that she knew that she wasn’t in the right place and mindset to wield one.I would say it's not so much she thinks she has the right as she feels she has the responsibility to look after and hand out the Swords. Someone needs to look after them until the time is right; Harry was that person, then he got killed and implicitly entrusted them to Murphy. She probably didn't want them any more than Harry did, but now that she has them, she's going to do the job to the best of her ability and guided by her own judgment -- just like Harry did.
I don’t see the mantle as being more dangerous to Harry than having Lash’s coin. Both were immensely tempting magical forces, for which there just weren’t many examples of people withstanding the temptation of it. Both influenced Harry to act uncharacteristically angry and violent. There are some differences, of course – the mantle makes Harry more of a testosterone junkie than Lash did, but I think that Lash’s ability to reason with Harry and argue her point makes the danger of Dresden falling about equal in both. The difference between the two is that Harry keeps the coin hidden from almost everybody; Michael is the only one of his close friends who knows that he has it. And Michael is OK with Harry holding a sword. Everyone, though, knows that Harry is Winter Knight, and now suddenly people don’t trust him and Karrin feels she has to strip Harry of the sword.There's one fundamental difference between Lash and the Mantle. Lash is there because Harry did not accept the coin's bargain; the Mantle is there because he did accept Mab's. There's a level of acceptance in the Mantle that wasn't present for Lash -- he's already said the big Yes, which I'd say makes him more vulnerable to it.
I don't know. That's where he is right now, sure. But I can't help thinking that he's being prepared in much the same way that Butters was. I've re-read Dresden's fight with Hannah several times, and it's impossible not to notice that Harry does exactly the role of a Knight here: he confronts her, offers her a choice, tries as hard as he can to help her step away -all to GREAT personal risk- and then defeats her when he had no other choice. That empathy could, over time, become a seed that brings him to recognize and want to help others trapped.Fair, I hadn't thought of it in that terms. But Hannah appealed to Harry personally in ways that, say, Nicodemus did not. Harry might be willing to save a "new" Denarian that he thinks was tricked, but Michael is willing to save Nicodemus.
Harry's own behavior matters and influences how Murphy approaches things. She had to be inflexible there -- putting it as you say, Harry would've been able to argue. ("You told me where the swords were hidden and I took them when you disappeared," "Well, I'm back now, I say give them back.") She wasn't looking for an argument. She doesn't have to tell him everything she's thinking and feeling -- she has a goal in the conversation, and she's acting toward that goal.
There's a lot going on in that conversation beyond just the Swords and Bob. Murphy is, in her own way, testing Dresden. She's dealt with things that looked and sounded like Dresden before, and this could be even worse than an imposter -- the actual Dresden on Mab's leash. She knows Dresden about as well as anyone in Chicago can, so she pokes him and sees how he reacts.
By the end of the conversation, I think she's convinced that he is still Harry Dresden -- but she can also see that he's in a very dark, rough place at the moment. You can even see where the shift happens -- after he punches the wall then sags in disgust at himself, she's suddenly very understanding and tender. I think, in that moment, she realizes what Harry could have done, what he very nearly did -- but that he didn't.
When you think about it, confronting the Winter Knight alone, unarmed, when you're like half his size? That's either gutsy as hell or very trusting that he's not actually going to hurt you.
Hey, in God, all booze is equal.
I imagine for Harry, it's also hard to remain truly faithless when he's literally spoken personally to an Angel on several occasions.
As for Harry as a wielder... in the right circumstances, maybe. I don't think he's cut out for a permanent position, though. I don't see him wanting to save the Denarians any more than Murphy is. Maybe even a little less willing.
Mira, do you intend to respond to my or KurtinStGeorge's posts? We both asked you some questions, and I think we'd both like them answered.
Allow me to explain what I meant in more detail. Murphy's attitude was rather inflexible. She appeared to have no doubts. She didn't say that she had concerns that needed to be assuaged or that the matter of the swords might be explored at a future time. Murphy could have even told Harry that he had told her where the swords were hidden, she had taken possession of them when Harry disappeared, and until she received a sign someone else was meant to hold them, she would assume she was meant to. Isn't this what you suggest she may have been thinking? Also, it's not a question of how events eventually played out, it's how Murphy handled the situation. A person can make the right move, but do so for the wrong reasons or perhaps I should say, do so in an offensive or capricious way.There is also no evidence that the Swords wouldn't have been fine where they were at, unless Thomas sold the boat or something, but I think he also knew where the Swords were.. After all Fid stayed in Harry's umbrella stand in plain sight for a number of years before he found a wielder.. It was untouched even when a horde of zombies trooped though his apartment in Dead Beat... Murphy didn't get a message from on high to retrieve the Swords, as said a couple of times, she took it upon herself to get them... I am sure she meant well.. But..
I do think Murphy was a correct, active, and true knight during changes in showdowns at chichen itza. She only wanted it for temporary time though. And she did screw up in skin knight but it was out of love for Harry and fear for his life that she was pushed into making a compromising choice.
I do think Murphy was a correct, active, and true knight during changes in showdowns at chichen itza. She only wanted it for temporary time though. And she did screw up in skin knight but it was out of love for Harry and fear for his life that she was pushed into making a compromising choice.
I thought about that as well. But considering further, I discount her performance during book 12. Chopping up vampires is not a KoTC's main job, saving mortals from fallen is. Which is probably why Murphy held out from wielding fid for so long. She knew she is not cut out for it, and when she was finally cornered to wield the holy sword for it's main purpose, she fails.
Wielding a sword is one thing, becoming a KotC is another thing entirely. I strongly suspect Harry refuse to become a KoTC for the same reason. There just isn't much mercy in Harry and Murphy for the likes of Nicodemous, which for me is a completely understandable point of view, but sadly such a way of thinking does not agree with the crede of the KoTC.I think for Harry it is a bit more complicated and involves a number of factors, most importantly perhaps is, he was never offered the job.. To be their custodian and to hand them out as needed, yes, but he has never been given a job offer to wield one.. Even to save little Maggie he didn't even consider using one, he handed the Sword of Love to Susan instead.
She no longer bought into, if she ever did, the idea that Denarians can or deserve a chance at redemption. That is the big reason why she went ahead and took the Sword with in my opinion, to her it had become a mere weapon, not a symbol of something higher with rules of engagement.
Imma have to disagree with you on this one. Murphy says herself in SG that she doesn't want to save/redeem them yes- but it's as a citation as to why she can't take up Fid.
What drove her to that decision was desperation, not a misunderstanding as to what the Swords require. She knows she's not suitable.
you don't bring it unless you intend to use itThat's simply not true.
I would say it's not so much she thinks she has the right as she feels she has the responsibility to look after and hand out the Swords. Someone needs to look after them until the time is right; Harry was that person, then he got killed and implicitly entrusted them to Murphy. She probably didn't want them any more than Harry did, but now that she has them, she's going to do the job to the best of her ability and guided by her own judgment -- just like Harry did.That is an excellent argument if Karen had decided to appoint someone a Knight before CD, but not so much after. Karrin is Catholic, same as Michael. They both believe that the will of God should be followed. Their creed states that priests, bishops, and popes should be divinely ordained, as well as anyone else in that kind of high position. So why does she take up on herself the role and responsibility?
There's one fundamental difference between Lash and the Mantle. Lash is there because Harry did not accept the coin's bargain; the Mantle is there because he did accept Mab's. There's a level of acceptance in the Mantle that wasn't present for Lash -- he's already said the big Yes, which I'd say makes him more vulnerable to it.There were many levels of acceptance for using the coin. Remember? With each level, Harry got a little bit more power, and Lash got a little more control. Touching coin, Harry got the shadow, Lash got to communicate to Harry's subconscious, and some involuntary use of her power. Calling on that power voluntarily gave him direct communication with Lash, the ability for him to be reasoned and argued with, and the access to her knowledge. It's true that in the case of the winter mantel, Harry is currently further along the path than he was with lash. But make no mistake, he has already made the choice and accepted the power in. Foot in the door. Lash admits that no one who had accepted to the level that he already had had remained uncorrupted. In the long- term, a mortal who held a coin has just as much chance to be corrupted as a mortal having the winter mantle: it's an almost certainty. That's why I think that there's a fundamental difference between Michael and Karrin in this case: Michael had faith that his friend wouldn't become corrupted. Karrin did not.
Fair, I hadn't thought of it in that terms. But Hannah appealed to Harry personally in ways that, say, Nicodemus did not. Harry might be willing to save a "new" Denarian that he thinks was tricked, but Michael is willing to save Nicodemus.You say that now, but remember: we don't actually know what Nicodemus' long term plans actually are. Nick is an ends justify the means kind of person, and it's been very clear throughout all of his appearances that he running against a deadline against something gigantic. His daughter also says candidly that they believe that they're saving the world. In SF, one of the books in which I think that he's being the most upfront and honest, he really does try to persuade Dresden, and says that a lot of the job would actually be good.
Chopping up vampires is not a KoTC's main job, saving mortals from fallen is.Michael was on mission when he helped out Harry in GP he was on mission when they fought the demon summer earlier that year. He was on Mission when he saved Ebenezer and gain during PG. Just because the Denarians are there huge major enemy, doesn't mean that they're not called to other tasks.
Who would not break a sword to save a loved one?A true Knight trusts TWG and knows that there's always a way out. The right way will present itself, if they have faith. Therefore, they should never be in a situation where they would have to break a sword in order to save a loved one.
A true Knight trusts TWG and knows that there's always a way out. The right way will present itself, if they have faith. Therefore, they should never be in a situation where they would have to break a sword in order to save a loved one.No he does not know there is always a way out because free willed choices in the past by her and other people could have put her in a situation without one.
Consider the situation. Karrin attacking with the sword did nothing. It did nothing other than allow Nick to drop his game and win. If Karen had called his bluff, Dresden would not have died.Harry had broken the rules. Nicodemus could very well have killed him and asked Mab for a replacement.
Nick was counting on Dresden to get through the gate of ice. Mab would not have given him a second knight due to Harry's death in service at the hands of one of Nick's henchman and at his instructions. Nor could Nick risk Karrin calling his bluff. If Karen had called Nick's bluff, walked up, and attempted to recover Anduriel's coin to toss it into Michael's yard - somewhere irretrievable - Nick would have scrambled to retrieve it and let them go. He really doesn't have any other option at this point. He needs Harry's cooperation. And to have taken such a leap of faith, I think that Karrin might have actually become a knight. Funny, what the difference between one choice will make.Nicodemus would have called the coin back to him, they can do that until the coin is secured.
Arjan's comment on how knights can't have faith that there will be a way out due to free will.I think you're missing the point of the Knights. Michael has to run out with Dresden to save his pregnant wife from the Nightmare, and Father Forthill is miraculously there to babysit. Sanya confidently asserts that they will arrive at Chichen Itza in time despite being horribly behind schedule. Michael thanking God in Skin Game for never having to make the choices that Harry had to. There's always, always a choice. The choice might suck - Shiro sacrificing himself (not his sword) for Dresden certainly did - but there's always a choice.
Arjan's comment on how Harry broke the rules so Nick was OK to kill him and get a replacement.How did he break the rules? I don't see it. So he wasn't all that helpful in the fight. You know how confusing fights might go. So his spell failed to kill Butters and knocked him into another yard. He was always a slippery little guy. Nick even acknowledges at the end that his threat to Dresden and attempt to kill him was just a ploy and therefore not a betrayal. Harry did not hurt Nick or Gen and complied with the orders given. While it's obvious that he's trying to work against Nicodemus, they stay within the letter of the law. If Gen were to kill him now, that would be a betrayal of Mab's trust.
”“The hell you have,” I spat. “You just ordered your goon to kill me. You’ve broken your contract with Mab.”
Nicodemus shifted his gaze to me and looked amused. “That?” he said. “Goodness, Dresden, can you not recognize a ploy when you see one?”
“What ploy?” I demanded.
“I needed to put a little pressure on Miss Murphy,” he said. “But you were never in any actual danger. Do you honestly think it would take the Genoskwa more than a few seconds to crack even a skull so thick as yours?” He smiled widely, clearly enjoying himself. “Why, it was no more an attempt to kill you than was your participation in the chase of the little doctor a betrayal of Mab’s word that you would aid me.”
Arjans comment that a Denarian can call back a coin with magic until it is secured.Do you remember in the final battle in Skin Game, when Nicodemus grabs his wife's arm and prevents her from sending a spell in retaliation into Michaels yard? It's not just that the supernatural folk can't enter the yard; they can't penetrate it, even with magic, without risking the wrath of the guardian angels. Reaching magically into Michaels yard to pull out some cursed pocket change, I think, counts as crossing the boundary into the protected zone, and would mean that the Angels would be free to smite him.
If this is true, it just further proves the point that she was never a rightful custodian of the Swords. What you saying works in the heat of the moment, she really thought that Harry was going to die, ergo she used the Sword improperly.. If that is all that happened, buy that, but it wasn't... 1] She made the decision to conceal the Sword on her person, after all she said, not a word to Harry. It reeks premeditation, it also reeks planning on using the Sword as a mere weapon, a] you don't bring it unless you intend to use it..b] you know if you have to use it chances are you are going to misuse it.. In effect it makes her a hypocrite, she talks good about the rules but then she knowingly breaks them. 2] It is her sitting of judgement of Nic, the words "damn you," as she lowers the Sword that got it broken, to her in that moment it was a mere weapon, she had Nic beaten, he had surrendered, she proceeded to execution...
I think the one character that has the most potential in the way they play out is Murphy.I'd say Thomas, cause with the power he has, the way he's been described by Uriel and the totally two dynamically opposed personalities on display throughout the series leads to greater potential for either direction.
Murphy does not want to be a knight, she knows she is not suited for it. This however, does not disqualify her for the post of custodian. A custodian's duty is to keep the sword safe and deploy them should the custodian finds it nescesary, which Murphy do just fine. A KoTC's duty is to wield the sword in the name of Heaven and complete missions given to them by the office and under it's code, which Murphy has serious problem with.
1. Harry is saved.No, Harry was never in any real danger, it was a ploy by Nic to get her to attack him, so the Sword would be broken.. Nic still needed Harry to get to the weapons in the vault.. Even if he could squirm his way out of his agreement with Mab with some cock and bull story, he still wanted in the vault.. So no, he never intended to kill Harry.. So Murphy attacked to save Harry, but he only appeared to be in danger, in truth, he never was... Nic wasn't lying to her as he beat the shit out of her.
2. Fid is broken in preparation for it's reforging to a more suitable form.Only because of Harry's faith... Not hers, and if Harry had no faith and didn't chose to toss the hilt when he did, the Sword would still be broken.. Murphy didn't chose to break a Sword to make something better, no one knew that would happen.. It is a nice rationalization..
As a knight, Murphy choose to attack Nick after he has surrendered. The consequences of her choice is:
1. Nick take the chance to break fid.
2. She lost her qualifications to become a knight and the custodian.She had the Swords in her possession, but she was never their custodian, there is a difference. She was qualified to be Knight that one night at C.I. I think if she is the one needed for the job and accepted, she could be a Knight again for the length of time needed..
There are times when a custodian must make questionable choices. Harry using fid as a betting chip in book 10 is one example. A knight however are more strictly bound by their code.
Ask yourself this question. Why there is a need for a custodian in the firstplace? Why not just leave the holy sword in the hands of another knight?
If what is needed in a custodian is the same as what is needed as a knight, Heaven should have just left fid in the hands of Michael when Shiro died.
It is clear to me that a custodian is a strategic post which someone sneaky like Urieal created because a knight is far too rigid in their conduct and lacks flexibility in the face of unpredictable and fluctuating circumstances.Something like that.
Here is the mixed up. Failure as knight does not = failure as the custodian. A custodian and a KoTc are 2 separate post with 2 entirely different responsibilities, for example: we know Harry is a great custodian, but he definitely is not knight material.Actually we do not know that, as Con pointed out Harry did try to give Hannah a way out very much as a true Knight would.. However she rejected him choosing Lasciel and her vengence instead, and he had to kill her to save the mission.. He didn't judge her like Murphy judged Nic... If anything Harry felt guilt because he couldn't save her, and Michael had to get him to buck up...
Ok, now I'm trying to write with an iPad, and can't easily copy/paste. I could only bring in one copied chunk of text, and chose a book quote. Please forgive me for the awkwardness.I think you missed the point of my post. Karen has never been optimal knight material and she knew it. It was not about how she should have acted as a knight, it was about picking up the sword in the first place.
I think you're missing the point of the Knights.
Michael has to run out with Dresden to save his pregnant wife from the Nightmare, and Father Forthill is miraculously there to babysit. Sanya confidently asserts that they will arrive at Chichen Itza in time despite being horribly behind schedule. Michael thanking God in Skin Game for never having to make the choices that Harry had to. There's always, always a choice. The choice might suckExactly the point. That suck might mean your loved one is dead, you are dead, etc.
- Shiro sacrificing himself (not his sword) for Dresden certainly did - but there's always a choice.And sometimes that choice is accepting the consequences of you previous choices. That sentence can be quite meaningless.
How did he break the rules? I don't see it.By trying to save Butters from Nicodemus.
So he wasn't all that helpful in the fight. You know how confusing fights might go. So his spell failed to kill Butters and knocked him into another yard. He was always a slippery little guy. Nick even acknowledges at the end that his threat to Dresden and attempt to kill him was just a ploy and therefore not a betrayal.That is what he said after the fight. Nicodemus says what suits him. He could have said something different after killing Harry.
Harry did not hurt Nick or Gen and complied with the orders given. While it's obvious that he's trying to work against Nicodemus, they stay within the letter of the law. If Gen were to kill him now, that would be a betrayal of Mab's trust.It is just calling the coin. According to Lasciel Harry could have done so through his walls and wards and concrete and circle and so on. I do not think the angels would have interfered, they would have interfered with his free willed choice to doom himself.
Do you remember in the final battle in Skin Game, when Nicodemus grabs his wife's arm and prevents her from sending a spell in retaliation into Michaels yard? It's not just that the supernatural folk can't enter the yard; they can't penetrate it, even with magic, without risking the wrath of the guardian angels. Reaching magically into Michaels yard to pull out some cursed pocket change, I think, counts as crossing the boundary into the protected zone, and would mean that the Angels would be free to smite him.
Yes, but you see, Murphy.Denarian skinwalker and leader of the black council? It was all Nemesis. Murphy never existed.
But she totally failed to keep a Holy Sword safe... Yes, it is the custodian's duty to see that the Swords are kept safe and deployed properly in the hands of the right wielder... She totally failed, because after declaring why she shouldn't wield a Holy Sword, she chose to hide it and bring it along when she went with Harry.. Point, feeling the way she did, she wasn't the right person to wield a Sword.. Her personal feelings shouldn't enter into it.. You can state that as her excuse, but it still says she was a total failure... No, Harry was never in any real danger, it was a ploy by Nic to get her to attack him, so the Sword would be broken.. Nic still needed Harry to get to the weapons in the vault.. Even if he could squirm his way out of his agreement with Mab with some cock and bull story, he still wanted in the vault.. So no, he never intended to kill Harry.. So Murphy attacked to save Harry, but he only appeared to be in danger, in truth, he never was... Nic wasn't lying to her as he beat the shit out of her.Only because of Harry's faith... Not hers, and if Harry had no faith and didn't chose to toss the hilt when he did, the Sword would still be broken.. Murphy didn't chose to break a Sword to make something better, no one knew that would happen.. It is a nice rationalization..
In my opinion she wasn't acting as a Knight... She brought the Sword, it reacted to Nic in a fight, it levels the playing field.. Just as it lit up on Harry's back on the island back in Small Favor, though Harry said at the time, he is no Knight. Murphy didn't take the Sword with her as a Knight, she just took it.She had the Swords in her possession, but she was never their custodian, there is a difference. She was qualified to be Knight that one night at C.I. I think if she is the one needed for the job and accepted, she could be a Knight again for the length of time needed..
But he knew enough than to try and wield it himself as a Knight or just as a wizard..
Perhaps because they need to be kept in civilian hands, more free choices maybe.
But Heaven didn't, Fid was passed to Harry to keep until the right person came along.. Michael never questioned it, and in turn when he retired handed Am over to Harry as well..Something like that.Actually we do not know that, as Con pointed out Harry did try to give Hannah a way out very much as a true Knight would.. However she rejected him choosing Lasciel and her vengence instead, and he had to kill her to save the mission.. He didn't judge her like Murphy judged Nic... If anything Harry felt guilt because he couldn't save her, and Michael had to get him to buck up...
It is just calling the coin. According to Lasciel Harry could have done so through his walls and wards and concrete and circle and so on. I do not think the angels would have interfered, they would have interfered with his free willed choice to doom himself.
I think you missed the point of my post. Karen has never been optimal knight material and she knew it. It was not about how she should have acted as a knight, it was about picking up the sword in the first place.I disagree with your assertion. When karrin held the sword, it still shown with a Holy Light. I don't think that it would have done so if it was absolutely wrong for Karen to have held the sword. I think that she had a choice here, and she chose poorly. If she had chosen well, she would have been a knight, and we would have had a very different story.
By trying to save Butters from Nicodemus.I'm sorry, but you are really, really wrong here. Throughout the entire book, Nicodemus and Harry always talk about how actions would be perceived by mab. If Harry's act of defending Butters automatically means that he broke Mab's word and broke the contract between them, Nick would have easily killed him and butters without even saying a word when they approach to Michael's house.
That is what he said after the fight. Nicodemus says what suits him. He could have said something different after killing Harry.
It is clear to me that a custodian is a strategic post which someone sneaky like Urieal created because a knight is far too rigid in their conduct and lacks flexibility in the face of unpredictable and fluctuating circumstances.Holy crap, yes. This. That makes so much sense.
.Then how can they be saved? And why do the fallen in the coins bother with them?
A free-will Act of a mortal does not apply to a Denarian.
That's why Nick and Tessa have to wait outside, ineffective.Just like the angels have to wait ineffectively sometimes. And we still do not know exactly how the rules work, they have plot clauses I suspect.
Besides, what kind of protection do you think that the church can offer other than a guardianship of angels hovering over it? I'm sorry, but your argument makes no sense.They can block the summoning with the box and holy hankie thing. It is all part of the rules.
I disagree with your assertion. When karrin held the sword, it still shown with a Holy Light.Which it did for Harry too in small favor. Karen gave it a try and the sword did its best maybe it could have succeeded but....
I don't think that it would have done so if it was absolutely wrong for Karen to have held the sword.It was not absolutely wrong and she was not the first knight who got her sword broken either. It was her choice to risk the sword and that was free will as well.
I think that she had a choice here, and she chose poorly. If she had chosen well, she would have been a knight, and we would have had a very different story.I think she would have returned it.
I'm sorry, but you are really, really wrong here. Throughout the entire book, Nicodemus and Harry always talk about how actions would be perceived by mab. If Harry's act of defending Butters automatically means that he broke Mab's word and broke the contract between them, Nick would have easily killed him and butters without even saying a word when they approach to Michael's house.And miss the chance of even getting more out of it? Harry was getting himself into problems quite nicely.
This is why I karrin asks Harry in the SUV whether or not they've blown their cover, and Harry says that they're still bad guys. This is why Harry makes absolutely sure that Nick attacks him in the vault, even endangering himself, just to make sure that Nicodemus absolutely pulls the first punch. This is why there's so much back and forth about what mab would perceive and whether or not she would think something is a betrayal or is simply up to interpretation. Your glossing over this very complex issue just to make sure that it fits your argument, but it's not working.Nicodemus will say what suits him. That is what he always does, that is his nature. Even if it bites him in the ass later.
Just to be clear, Nick cannot just say whatever he wants afterwards.
Mab, in Queen of Faerie, has thousands of little folk everywhere in the real world who can report to her exactly what happened. I wouldn't be surprised if she herself was watching over these events. It's her interpretation that matters, not Nick's. And Mab is a person who upholds the letter of the law, and is okay with ignoring the spirit of it. That's why you can blast a fae lord into frozen chunks during a birthday party and be perfectly fine, because you technically did not spill any blood. Remember: Mab -wants- Nick to be "skinned alive" from this Game. If there's anything ambiguous about Harry's betrayal or if it can be chalked up to incompetence, Mab will absolutely do it and screw Nick over.It would not matter if you were dead.
Not to Harry certainly. But if Nick kills Harry without unambiguous proof that he's breaking their contract, he'll care very much.Not only that, but Harry is vital for getting through the Ice Gate.. Nic very much wants to get into that vault and steal the weapons..
Because he'll have an angry Sidhe Queen breathing down his neck for the remainder of his very short life.
I disagree with your assertion. When karrin held the sword, it still shown with a Holy Light. I don't think that it would have done so if it was absolutely wrong for Karen to have held the sword. I think that she had a choice here, and she chose poorly. If she had chosen well, she would have been a knight, and we would have had a very different story.
It was not absolutely wrong and she was not the first knight who got her sword broken either. It was her choice to risk the sword and that was free will as well.
Murphy fail as a knight. This is beyond dispute. As a custodian however, did she fail? or did she succeed?
However, the subsequent event is too convenient for team good. The broken sword is reforge. Not just simply reforge, it turn into something far more suited for the next true KoTC, which would be impossible if the sword is not broken first. It also pull Harry out from the predicament between saving Butters and fulfilling Mab's promise.The cynical would call that luck... What blows that argument is she didn't tuck away the Sword with the idea of "Oh well, if it get's broken because I fuck up big time with it, Harry and Butters and or someone else will that the faith and be desperate enough to remake it, and better too.." If that happened every day, then there wouldn't have been any point in Nic trying to take it out, which was his aim all along, has been all through the series, taking out one or more of the Holy
It is interesting to me looking at whom Heaven choose as the custodian. Original Merlin, Harry Dresden and Murphy. It is not a straight up good guy like Ft. Forthill, or a devout like Michael. These custodian are powerful people, and more importantly all of them are people who stand in the murky grey area between good and evil. All of them are active people. People who actively take actions that influence the course of destiny.
If Heaven wants a mere keeper, they should find people like Ft. Forthill. The sword will definitely be a lot safer that way.
It is entirely possible that the custodian is meant to use the sword in a way that a KoTC cannot. Using the sword as a gambling chip for example, or breaking a sword to save people. A KoTC can't do such things, but sometimes such things are nescesary. In book 10, using the sword as a gambling chip saved Ivy and probably the world from Nuclear Armageddon. In book 15, fid's breaking and Murphy's heavy injury satisfy the quid pro quo nescesary to bail Butters out, else the cost may be Harry's wintery crusifiction instead. And since this involve Hades and the 4 mysterious artifact in the underworld armory, fid's breaking possibly avoid a lot of cosmic scale complication.
It is entirely possible that the custodian is meant to use the sword in a way that a KoTC cannot. Using the sword as a gambling chip for example, or breaking a sword to save people. A KoTC can't do such things, but sometimes such things are nescesary. In book 10, using the sword as a gambling chip saved Ivy and probably the world from Nuclear Armageddon. In book 15, fid's breaking and Murphy's heavy injury satisfy the quid pro quo nescesary to bail Butters out, else the cost may be Harry's wintery crusifiction instead. And since this involve Hades and the 4 mysterious artifact in the underworld armory, fid's breaking possibly avoid a lot of cosmic scale complication.It is certainly the reason Uriel is so involved with the swords lately. He is the angel to be sent out for that kind of thing.
It is a food for thought.
.
I'm sorry, but you are really, really wrong here. Throughout the entire book, Nicodemus and Harry always talk about how actions would be perceived by mab. If Harry's act of defending Butters automatically means that he broke Mab's word and broke the contract between them, Nick would have easily killed him and butters without even saying a word when they approach to Michael's house.
This is why I karrin asks Harry in the SUV whether or not they've blown their cover, and Harry says that they're still bad guys. This is why Harry makes absolutely sure that Nick attacks him in the vault, even endangering himself, just to make sure that Nicodemus absolutely pulls the first punch. This is why there's so much back and forth about what mab would perceive and whether or not she would think something is a betrayal or is simply up to interpretation. Your glossing over this very complex issue just to make sure that it fits your argument, but it's not working.
Just to be clear, Nick cannot just say whatever he wants afterwards. Mab, in Queen of Faerie, has thousands of little folk everywhere in the real world who can report to her exactly what happened. I wouldn't be surprised if she herself was watching over these events. It's her interpretation that matters, not Nick's. And Mab is a person who upholds the letter of the law, and is okay with ignoring the spirit of it. That's why you can blast a fae lord into frozen chunks during a birthday party and be perfectly fine, because you technically did not spill any blood. Remember: Mab -wants- Nick to be "skinned alive" from this Game. If there's anything ambiguous about Harry's betrayal or if it can be chalked up to incompetence, Mab will absolutely do it and screw Nick over.
Holy crap, yes. This. That makes so much sense.
Then how can they be saved? And why do the fallen in the coins bother with them?
Just like the angels have to wait ineffectively sometimes. And we still do not know exactly how the rules work, they have plot clauses I suspect.
They can block the summoning with the box and holy hankie thing. It is all part of the rules.Wait, what rules? I thought you said we couldn’t know how the rules work? Now you know how they work?
The coin laying in the grass is not the same thing.
Which it did for Harry too in small favor. Karen gave it a try and the sword did its best maybe it could have succeeded but....
I took two steps forward, ignoring Michael, and drew the sword from its sheath. Fidelacchius was a classic chisel-tipped katana, encased in what looked like an old wooden walking cane. I kept the blade clean and oiled while it was in my care. It came free of its casing without a sound and gleamed coldly in the violet light of the fire.
--
Murphy’s fingers closed around the hilt of the holy blade. She drew it maybe an inch from the scabbard. White light blinded me, blinded Deidre, blinded Murphy, blinded Thomas, blinded everyone.
“Damn you!” Karrin snarled. Her hips and shoulders twisted to deliver the lethal slash. The light of the blade died away as abruptly as an unplugged lamp. The thrum of power that resonated through the very air vanished.
Again you are talking about how she performed as a knight while I was talking about her decision to pick up the sword in the first place with all her doubts about being proper knight material. Both the decision and the doubts were correct in my opinion.I agree that it’s not a great idea to take up the sword if there were any doubts. If Dresden was custodian and offered her the sword, asking for her oath to uphold all that the Knights do, she would have either refused it or have made the decision to uphold the code earlier, and not have been so easily manipulated by Nicodemus. But she still had the choice here. She could have made the right one and put her faith in TWG, and she didn’t.
And miss the chance of even getting more out of it? Harry was getting himself into problems quite nicely.OK, so if Nick is just holding out in order to get a chance of destroying a sword, which he didn’t even know would be in play until Karrin pulls it out, then what else is he holding out for after he puts Murphy down? Why didn’t Nick say, “OK, Gen, now REALLY crush his skull.”?
Nicodemus will say what suits him. That is what he always does, that is his nature. Even if it bites him in the ass later.Um, let me re-phrase again. Nick cannot just say whatever he wants afterwards and expect Mab to agree to his version of events and give him another Winter Knight. And where is this “his nature is to say whatever he wants, even if it bites him in the ass later” thing coming from? Nicodemus is a schemer and a plotter, every move he makes considers the likely consequences and long-term results of his actions. Him killing Dresden and claiming that Dresden betrayed him, even though he offered Nick no violence, fought the stone lion, fired magic at a fleeing target and blasted said target with the same amount of kinetic force as a 55 MPH truck? No. Dresden stuck to the letter of the agreement. Nick is in the same position that Harry is in later at Hades’ vault – if Nick wants to justly kill Dresden, he has to provoke Dresden to attack outright, which could not be misconstrued as anything other than a betrayal of the agreement.
It would not matter if you were dead.I do not understand this argument. It does not make sense in the context of what I was saying. Do you disagree that it is Mab’s interpretation of events that ultimately matters?
Nick knows this, so he offered Harry a way out by surrendering Butters. It is at this point when Harry truly broke the deal by shooting Butters over the carpenter's fence. He is obligated to help Nick and Nick specifically ordered him to surrender Butters, but Harry do exactly the opposite right in front of Nicodemous. At this point Nick already have a free hand. which is why the moment Harry forzare Butters over the fence, all sorts of things happens at once. The Genoswa move, Nick pull out a gun and shoot Murphy, because at this point the truce is truly broken by Harry.
Uriel does not think human life that important anyway, the soul is more important.
Their souls are saved and for Uriel that is the most important point but Karen took the sword to save a loved one.
“I’ve kept my word,” Nicodemus said. “Now, it’s your tur-“
“The hell you have,” I spat. “You just ordered your goon to kill me. You’ve broken your contract with Mab.”
Nicodemus shifted his gaze to me and looked amused. “That?” he said. “Goodness, Dresden, can you not recognize a ploy when you see one?”
“What ploy?” I demanded.
“I needed to put a little pressure on Ms. Murphy,” he said. “But you were never in any actual danger. Do you honestly think it would take the Genoskwa more than a few seconds to crack even a skull so thick as yours?” He smiled widely, clearly enjoying himself. “Why, it was no more an attempt to kill you than was your participation in the little doctor a betrayal of Mab’s word that you would aid me.”
Damn it. Nothing like a little pro-forma quid pro quo action. By Mab’s reckoning, I was pretty sure Nicodemus and I had played this one out evenly. My actions in protecting Butters could be explained as bad luck and sincere incompetence. Nicodemus’ attempt to kill me could be explained as a ploy to destroy the sword.
…
I ground my teeth and said, “You attacked Murphy.”
“I warned you that I could not guarantee her safety,” he said in a reasonable tone. “And in any case, she initiated the attack, if you recall. And she’s not dead just yet.” He showed me white teeth. “I’d say that I’ve been more than reasonable, and so would your liege.”
Again, he was right. By Mab’s reckoning, he was indeed a reasonable man.
That is an excellent argument if Karen had decided to appoint someone a Knight before CD, but not so much after. Karrin is Catholic, same as Michael. They both believe that the will of God should be followed. Their creed states that priests, bishops, and popes should be divinely ordained, as well as anyone else in that kind of high position. So why does she take up on herself the role and responsibility?I find it hard to believe that Murphy never went to Michael for guidance on any of this. Hell, in Skin Game, her talks about Faith sound a lot like him.
One would think that she would think that Michael would be a better choice to ordain the next bearer of the swords. Instead, she refuses to give up control and takes the role upon herself. And we see that the results are disastrous. I don't argue that she felt like she had the responsibility, but just because she felt like she had the responsibility didn't mean that she actually had it.
There were many levels of acceptance for using the coin. Remember? With each level, Harry got a little bit more power, and Lash got a little more control. Touching coin, Harry got the shadow, Lash got to communicate to Harry's subconscious, and some involuntary use of her power. Calling on that power voluntarily gave him direct communication with Lash, the ability for him to be reasoned and argued with, and the access to her knowledge. It's true that in the case of the winter mantel, Harry is currently further along the path than he was with lash. But make no mistake, he has already made the choice and accepted the power in. Foot in the door. Lash admits that no one who had accepted to the level that he already had had remained uncorrupted. In the long- term, a mortal who held a coin has just as much chance to be corrupted as a mortal having the winter mantle: it's an almost certainty. That's why I think that there's a fundamental difference between Michael and Karrin in this case: Michael had faith that his friend wouldn't become corrupted. Karrin did not.Don't forget that Michael told Harry to give up his magic to get rid of the Shadow. Michael did not have faith that Harry could overcome it on his own, otherwise he wouldn't have told him that was the only way.
You say that now, but remember: we don't actually know what Nicodemus' long term plans actually are. Nick is an ends justify the means kind of person, and it's been very clear throughout all of his appearances that he running against a deadline against something gigantic. His daughter also says candidly that they believe that they're saving the world. In SF, one of the books in which I think that he's being the most upfront and honest, he really does try to persuade Dresden, and says that a lot of the job would actually be good.By on a personal level, I meant that Hannah's story is a lot like Harry's -- burned to death someone who meant to do him harm, suspected by the Wardens at every turn. Hannah just didn't have someone to intercede for her. Harry sees himself in Hannah. Harry doesn't see himself in Nicodemus.
I believe that at this point, he thinks that Lash has more influence over him and that he could be swayed. There's no reason to give Harry the coin of the temptress unless he actually intends to win him over to his court. I think that once he understands what Nick has been working towards, they will still be enemies. But he will, to an extent, understand why he went to such lengths. And that understanding can lead to empathy.
OK, so if Nick is just holding out in order to get a chance of destroying a sword, which he didn’t even know would be in play until Karrin pulls it out, then what else is he holding out for after he puts Murphy down? Why didn’t Nick say, “OK, Gen, now REALLY crush his skull.”?
OK, so if Nick is just holding out in order to get a chance of destroying a sword, which he didn’t even know would be in play until Karrin pulls it out, then what else is he holding out for after he puts Murphy down? Why didn’t Nick say, “OK, Gen, now REALLY crush his skull.”?
(quote)
Because like all bad guys, Nick is too busy gloating. He just destroy one of the holy sword, permanently or so he thinks, his eternal bane of existence is no more. He got good reason to gloat and cause addition emotional suffering for both Harry and Karrin while he is at it, which could grant denarians like him extra power if what is mentioned in book 5 has any truth.
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Nick can harm Karrin because Karrin attacked him, but she didn’t do so on Dresden’s orders. Her actions and choices were her own. And when Nick tells Harry to “call off your dog before I put her down” he tells him to end the little doctor and things can go back to normal. Harry finds a way out by seemingly attempting to end Butters and failing, which is how they get into Nick’s next ploy.
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This is obviously wrong. By faerie custom, as Harry's + 1, Murphy's action is not only her own. In the eyes of faerie and Mab, Murphy is no different than Harry's staff.
If Nick can attack Murphy because Murphy attack him, he can attack Harry as well, because by faerie law Murphy attacking Nick is no different than Harry attacking Nick. Book 4 explain this rule explicitly.
(quote)
Um, let me re-phrase again. Nick cannot just say whatever he wants afterwards and expect Mab to agree to his version of events and give him another Winter Knight. And where is this “his nature is to say whatever he wants, even if it bites him in the ass later” thing coming from? Nicodemus is a schemer and a plotter, every move he makes considers the likely consequences and long-term results of his actions. Him killing Dresden and claiming that Dresden betrayed him, even though he offered Nick no violence, fought the stone lion, fired magic at a fleeing target and blasted said target with the same amount of kinetic force as a 55 MPH truck? No. Dresden stuck to the letter of the agreement. Nick is in the same position that Harry is in later at Hades’ vault – if Nick wants to justly kill Dresden, he has to provoke Dresden to attack outright, which could not be misconstrued as anything other than a betrayal of the agreement.
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Nick does not need to say anything. If it come to a point where Nick need to explain himself to Mab, he already lost because you cannot outlawyer the Queen of winter.
Again, Murphy attacking Nick is Harry attacking Nick. In the eyes of faerie, Murphy is a non entity. She is just Harry's tool, nothing more.
By the time Harry forzare Butters to safety, the deal is broken beyond doubt.
(quote)
I disagree; if the truce was truly broken at this point, then why would Harry have phrased his attack by saying first, “Sorry, Butters, nothing personal” before blasting him in the chest? Directly before this, Nick does not call for Harry to surrender Butters; he calls for him to end him. Forzare is primarily used as an attack spell. Dresden and Mab can certainly lawyer that Harry did attempt to end Butters; he just did a particularly incompetent job of it. The reason that everything moved when it did was because Nick suddenly lost one point of leverage, and needed to gain another – instead of threatening Butters’ life, he threatens Harry’s.
(quote)
Harry say that to make sure Nick can't prevent his move. Doing what he did, Harry knew he is breaking Mab words and he and Murphy will be in danger, but if Nick caught on to it, even Butters might fail to escape the net. Better 2 in danger rather than 3.
You need to understand the fae. Mab is a creature of absolute. She does not care about the process. She doesn't need explanations or excuses, she wants result.
Her orders are for Harry to help Nicodemous. Nicodemous ordered Harry to end Butters. As long as Butters is ended everything will be fine or else.
The reason why Harry could fain incompetence before is because Nick does not gave him any direct order. When Butters is discovered, Nick and the Genoskwa immedietly went for the chase. There is no instruction for Harry. So as long as Harry is not caught red handed, he can do a lot of monkey business.
Things are different when Harry and Butters is caught red handed in front of Michael's home. Nick gave Harry a direct order and he refuse.
It is the "bring me a coke" order Harry gave to cat sith in book 14. The coke can be hot, it can be poisoned, it can have a bomb attach to it, but the coke must be brought to Harry. Butters must die or Harry will be breaking Mab's promise.
Since Butters did not die and there is nothing else can be done to change the circumstances, there must be compensation, there is a price to be paid. It could be Harry's wintery crusifiction or death or it ought to be, but Michael intervened and offered something else in exchange and Nick accept it.
Whether or not Nick knew about Murphy bringing fid is not truly important. Whether or not fid is the real target is not important either. What is important that the appearance of fid in front of Nick is enough to distract Nick. If Nick does not need Harry alive in order to unbalance Murphy, Nick probably would just kill Harry out of hand. not to mention Murphy will be free to smite him down if the Genoswa really kill Harry. No, until fid is disarm and no longer a threat, Harry cannot be killed or Nick himself will be in danger.
Do you think if Harry's dead, Nicodemus is going to share Harry's version of events?I think it doesn’t much matter if Harry’s dead or alive; even if Nick kills everyone, he’s not the only witness. As I said, Mab has many servants with eyes open in the mortal world, not to mention the fact that she herself is likely keeping tabs on the operation. Why else is it that Dresden considers the vault to be literally the only place that Nick could double-cross him without word spreading?
I find it hard to believe that Murphy never went to Michael for guidance on any of this. Hell, in Skin Game, her talks about Faith sound a lot like him.First – yes, her talk about having faith and deciding to not be afraid that her friends will turn into monsters does sound like Michael. Why isn’t she taking her own advice? If she’s not going to live in fear that Dresden will turn into a monster, then why is she still self-appointed custodian?
Even if she didn't, she's bright enough to know that the Catholic Church is not, shall we say, as pristine and pure as it says it is.
Michael is out of the game. Neither Harry nor Murphy want to bring any more ire down on him or his family.
Bottom line, though, is that Murphy has the Swords because Harry entrusted them to her. She's executor of his Will, he told her where to find them, and he's not the least bit surprised when she has them in Ghost Story. All evidence points to her having the Swords because the friend that she loves and trusts felt that she should have them.
Michael has a lot of faith in Harry, but in Small Favor we see that he's just as worried about Harry losing to the shadow as Murphy is -- and that's after the shadow is actually gone.Absolutely! And this is the beauty of the entire situation. We know that Michael’s fear is completely misplaced. We know that Michael fears that his friend might have succumbed to the darkness. Dresden calls him out on it, and Michael decides to trust in and have faith in his friend. It’s a beautiful moment in this, because Harry asks Michael to trust him as he literally seems to be about to give the swords away to the Denarians. And Michael decides to trust his friend and have faith.
As for the issue of throwing the coin in Michael's yard, that wouldn't have done anything.
Nicodemus gives up the coin, and he's mortal. Mortals can walk right up to Michael's front door and set the place on fire. And as a mortal, Nicodemus can just walk right through that white picket fence, pick up the coin, and stroll back out.
Plus, while Murphy's stooping down to pick up the coin (barehanded? Meaning the fallen inside gets influence on her?), she's not holding the sword to Nic's throat as well, meaning that Nicodemus can easily disarm her.Come on. Murphy is the Dresden Files’ Batman; a mortal who holds her own through smarts, competence, and planning for every eventuality. You think she brought a Sword along to kill Denarians and would have forgotten to bring something to grab the coin that topples out? Ten to one that if she’s not wearing leather gloves (I mean, it is winter, and the book doesn’t describe her hands) that she’s at least got a run-of-the-mill handkerchief or ziplock bag in her pocket. It would be out of character for Karrin to not plan for this.
Denarian skinwalker and leader of the black council? It was all Nemesis. Murphy never existed.Wrong. NEMESIS never existed. It was all Murphy, using that to cover up her evil deeds, like her long term plan to destroy a Sword, by doing exactly what Harry told her to do!
Mab has a vested interest in screwing Nick over; I don’t believe that she would just take Nick’s word at heart and swap in another winter goon. That would pretty much ensure that Nick would walk out with all holy artifacts. In the event of Harry’s death, it’s Mab’s word against Nicodemus’, and Mab’s perception that matters.
First – yes, her talk about having faith and deciding to not be afraid that her friends will turn into monsters does sound like Michael. Why isn’t she taking her own advice? If she’s not going to live in fear that Dresden will turn into a monster, then why is she still self-appointed custodian?
Second – the Catholic Church has nothing to do with this. The point is that their creed believes that people given authority are ordained by God. Regardless of how corrupt or not corrupt the church is, Murphy believes in the power behind it, which is why she shouldn’t have self-appointed herself.She also didn't hesitate to use faith and her religious faith verses Harry's lack there of to justify her self appointment. Aside for her argument that he could turn into a monster was her main basis for keeping the Swords.
Bottom line – whether Harry entrusted the swords to her in his will or not, he’s not dead anymore. He’s very much alive, and she claims that having faith and trust in Dresden is the very thing that he needs most, and that she’s decided not to be afraid that he might turn into a monster..No, he isn't dead, and I doubt he left the Swords to her in his will, they were never his, only their guardianship.. She was executor of his will, but I do not remember anything in the books where it was said that the Swords were left to her. All I recall is in Changes he told her where they were at if she changed her mind about being a Knight, which isn't the same thing as making her custodian..
Come on. Murphy is the Dresden Files’ Batman; a mortal who holds her own through smarts, competence, and planning for every eventuality. You think she brought a Sword along to kill Denarians and would have forgotten to bring something to grab the coin that topples out? Ten to one that if she’s not wearing leather gloves (I mean, it is winter, and the book doesn’t describe her hands) that she’s at least got a run-of-the-mill handkerchief or ziplock bag in her pocket. It would be out of character for Karrin to not plan for this.
Going from a two-handed to the weaker one-handed grip (and yes, a katana can be held and fought with one-handed), reaching her other hand in her pocket to retrieve a handkerchief, crouching and retrieving the coin while still holding the sword to Nick and not taking her eyes off of him, does still compromise her attention and position. This is true. But if Nick acts in sudden aggression or acts to retrieve the coin, then he’s no longer surrendered and Karrin can strike. Then he’s standing there with no noose on his neck, possibly no coin, facing a sword that can literally end him. This is not a better position. Yes, he could possibly turn the tables, but that’s by no means a sure thing – and in that case, she just merely has another trap with another choice.
Saying that Murphy is the last true blue mortal on the team is a good point. However, her getting so badly wounded by Nic that she'll never recover 100% is also a point where you got to wonder what her future role as "the normal" is going to be in the series. It's fully possible that she'll transition into another role, but given how much her identity has been to be this tough woman, I bet it would trigger even more of an identity crisis than she already had after having to leave the CPD.
I think it doesn’t much matter if Harry’s dead or alive; even if Nick kills everyone, he’s not the only witness. As I said, Mab has many servants with eyes open in the mortal world, not to mention the fact that she herself is likely keeping tabs on the operation. Why else is it that Dresden considers the vault to be literally the only place that Nick could double-cross him without word spreading?
Mab has a vested interest in screwing Nick over; I don’t believe that she would just take Nick’s word at heart and swap in another winter goon. That would pretty much ensure that Nick would walk out with all holy artifacts. In the event of Harry’s death, it’s Mab’s word against Nicodemus’, and Mab’s perception that matters.
First – yes, her talk about having faith and deciding to not be afraid that her friends will turn into monsters does sound like Michael. Why isn’t she taking her own advice? If she’s not going to live in fear that Dresden will turn into a monster, then why is she still self-appointed custodian?
Second – the Catholic Church has nothing to do with this. The point is that their creed believes that people given authority are ordained by God. Regardless of how corrupt or not corrupt the church is, Murphy believes in the power behind it, which is why she shouldn’t have self-appointed herself.
Third – by hiding the swords at Michael’s, she’s made him in the game. Pure and simple.
Bottom line – whether Harry entrusted the swords to her in his will or not, he’s not dead anymore. He’s very much alive, and she claims that having faith and trust in Dresden is the very thing that he needs most, and that she’s decided not to be afraid that he might turn into a monster.
Absolutely! And this is the beauty of the entire situation. We know that Michael’s fear is completely misplaced. We know that Michael fears that his friend might have succumbed to the darkness. Dresden calls him out on it, and Michael decides to trust in and have faith in his friend. It’s a beautiful moment in this, because Harry asks Michael to trust him as he literally seems to be about to give the swords away to the Denarians. And Michael decides to trust his friend and have faith.
I think this is part of the reason why later on, Michael outright laughs at Harry’s fear of descending into darkness, reminding him that he’s “pathologically unable to know when to quit.” Michael’s been down the same road as Karrin and has grown in faith and character. If Karrin’s talk about faith did come from Michael, this is likely why – because he’s been there. He knows what she’s afraid of.
Even assuming that a blackened Denarius containing a Fallen wouldn’t trigger some sort of response from the guardian angels – something that I find surprising, considering the being inside it and the danger that a Denarius represents to any mortal – how do you figure that Nick can retrieve it as simply as that? Stroll in, sure. The second he touches it, he’s a Knight of the Blackened Denarius again, who has Anduriel working through him to influence the physical world. A millisecond later, he’s a Knight of the Blackened Ash Pile on the Front Steps. And if he goes and retrieves it without touching the coin, he’s essentially defenseless and proving that he isn’t relinquishing the coin.
Why else does Harry consider Michael’s house to be the best place in the city to go to for shelter from fallen angels? Harry comes to the conclusion that Butters must be going to Michael’s house before he figures out that the swords are there. If the angelic sentry doesn’t provide protection, then Butters is far better off going to a public location – possibly holy ground at Saint Mary of the Angels, rather than a house full of innocent, vulnerable children.
Come on. Murphy is the Dresden Files’ Batman; a mortal who holds her own through smarts, competence, and planning for every eventuality. You think she brought a Sword along to kill Denarians and would have forgotten to bring something to grab the coin that topples out? Ten to one that if she’s not wearing leather gloves (I mean, it is winter, and the book doesn’t describe her hands) that she’s at least got a run-of-the-mill handkerchief or ziplock bag in her pocket. It would be out of character for Karrin to not plan for this.
Going from a two-handed to the weaker one-handed grip (and yes, a katana can be held and fought with one-handed), reaching her other hand in her pocket to retrieve a handkerchief, crouching and retrieving the coin while still holding the sword to Nick and not taking her eyes off of him, does still compromise her attention and position. This is true. But if Nick acts in sudden aggression or acts to retrieve the coin, then he’s no longer surrendered and Karrin can strike. Then he’s standing there with no noose on his neck, possibly no coin, facing a sword that can literally end him. This is not a better position. Yes, he could possibly turn the tables, but that’s by no means a sure thing – and in that case, she just merely has another trap with another choice.
Mab can lawyer her way out of many things, but there is a limit to it. If the deal is broken, Mab is bound to compensate whether she wants to or not. Mab is a fae Queen, she is not a trickster god like Loki or Coyote. In D&D terms, Mab's alignment is most certainly "Order" and not "Chaos". Assuming that Mab can perceived things as much as she please is a gross mistake, and with Anduriel behind Nicodemous, Nick probably knows the law behind Mab's existence better than most. Mab's interpreatation is what matters, but Mab is bound by her nature and will become powerless under the right circumstances.It's a mistake to think that Mab doesn't have eyes on everything going on? Argue with this.
That is why she did not follow her own advice, because she has not reach there yet. By the time she arrive at point of trust, Harry no longer ask for the swords from her.So when she and Harry talk about the swords before joining the evil league of evil, that would be a great point for her to act on her newfound convictions and say, "Hey, by the way, you can have 'em back whenever. I'll tell you where they are in a more secure place." And yes, Harry doesn't ask for them back. If he ever wants Karrin to give them back, one way to NOT convince her is to ask, "Hey, can I have the swords now?" every time they meet. Sheesh.
In a way, Michael show a lot less trust. He has been doubting Harry for some time already, but he refuse to confront Harry about it, while Murphy dares to go to Harry directly about her misgivings. Michael kept quiet, Michael does not even gave Harry a chance to defend himself, not until Harry force the issue on to MichaelWhat? Are you serious?
As for the coin, if you consider Nick without the coin is an incompetent fool, then yes, Murphy trying to take anduriel's coin away is a good idea Sure, this 2000 year old denarian lord definitely has no backup plan and will just let Murphy take the coin away just like that. Yeah, right. Not to mention, that if Murphy truly manage to take away Nick's coin and noose away, it might cause Nick to order the Genoskwa to just kill Harry out of spite even if he has to fall himself. Furthermore, I am sure trying to steal Nick's coin and noose while Harry and Murphy is technically under Mab's deal would probably end up with Harry crucified even if he could survive.Look, I'm not trying to say that if Harry had followed this plan, everything would have been sunshine, daffodils, and butterflies. I don't know that. No one knows that. I'm even willing to admit that it could take some sort of miracle-level of intervention to get their butts out. But that's exactly what happens when the Knights of the cross trust in their God and make the best choices. I'm simply trying to say here that you can't say that Murphy only had one choice, and that was to make the sword vulnerable. Making the sword vulnerable and did absolutely nothing to help them.
It is a bad idea all around.
It's a mistake to think that Mab doesn't have eyes on everything going on? Argue with this.
1. Little folk are everywhere. Like, freaking everywhere.
2. Harry has demonstrated numerous times that they can be bribed and relied upon to give a basic "this happened then this happened then this happened" report.
3. They also can't lie.
4. Mab is a Queen of Faerie. She already has demonstrated through interference with Toot and Lacuna that they defer to her will.
So what on earth makes you think that, if Harry's not there to defend himself, that somehow Mab is forced to accept her Knight's murderer's version of events, just because Harry isn't around to argue it? Why wouldnt she use the same argument of bad luck and gross incompetence?
I'm pretty sure that would make Nicodemus seem more guilty, not less.
So when she and Harry talk about the swords before joining the evil league of evil, that would be a great point for her to act on her newfound convictions and say, "Hey, by the way, you can have 'em back whenever. I'll tell you where they are in a more secure place." And yes, Harry doesn't ask for them back. If he ever wants Karrin to give them back, one way to NOT convince her is to ask, "Hey, can I have the swords now?" every time they meet. Sheesh.Mainly because Harry is still convinced that he could turn into a monster, she doesn't disabuse him of that idea, plus she keeps throwing faith into his face implying because he isn't religious he didn't get the Word that the Swords have passed on.. Lies... But Harry believes them because he absolutely trusts Murphy and her judgement, which makes the whole scene stink. He is already suffering from survivor's guilt because he had to kill Susan, the mother of his child, and he is still grieving over her.. Murphy sends him mixed messages, he needs to see his child, but oh by the way you can still become a monster... She is right about him needing to meet his child, but she is totally wrong about why he is afraid to do so.
Ok, Michael expresses misgivings five years after seeing Dresden touch the coin. His main sin against Dresden is that he's been giving him funny looks. He trusts Dresden to have a one-on-one with Nick several times and to manage pretty much everything that's happening in SF. NOT TO MENTION that he's trusting Harry to closely mentor his oldest daughter in the same arts that he believes Harry must give up to be free of the shadow. His conversation with him at the edge of PG prove that he still trusts Harry to find a worthy recipient of the sword. And when Harry calls Michael out on his misgivings, Michael listens.Thank you! That is the key here, Michael actually listened to Harry verses Murphy who lectured a lot but never asked squat or listened.. Michael also gave Harry total reassurance that in his opinion Harry would never turn into a monster, because he knows him, the real him. Consider, Harry had one of the Fallen's shadow in his head for a number of years, Michael knew where he kept Fid, he never demanded it because Harry could take up the coin at anytime.. Michael had faith the Swords were entrusted to Harry for a reason.. If he felt for a minute that the Sword was in danger, he would have demanded it.. He never did.. I don't know how much of any of that struggle Murphy actually knew about, she knew about the anger issues and Hell fire, and rightly had an effective talk to Harry about that, but beyond that I don't think she really does know, she just assumes a lot.
Look, I'm not trying to say that if Harry had followed this plan, everything would have been sunshine, daffodils, and butterflies. I don't know that. No one knows that. I'm even willing to admit that there must be some sort of miracle-level of intervention to get their butts out. But that's exactly what happens when the Knights of the cross trust in their God and make the best choices. I'm simply trying to say here that you can't say that Murphy only had one choice, and that was to make the sword vulnerable. Making the sword vulnerable and did absolutely nothing to help them.Her choice was to act as a Knight since she decided to bring a Holy Sword along, only she knew she wasn't a Knight... How would Michael act, or Shiro, or Sanya? They'd accept Nic's offer of surrender, and wish him well on his road to redemption.. That's what Holy Knights do... The rest is left up to the Almighty, if He sees fit that Harry dies as a result, so be it... If Nic recants and tries to take the coin and noose back, so be it.. Why because they have faith and that is the purpose of the Swords, upon surrender of coin and noose Nic has to be given his shot at redemption.. When Murphy chose to act as judge and executioner of a defenseless Nic at that moment, the Holy Sword became an ordinary weapon subject to all the stress and strains of an ordinary blade, and it shattered on the icy sidewalk.... Murphy knew it too in that moment, the Sword as she began her downward stroke gleamed with a very ordinary light..
It's a mistake to think that Mab doesn't have eyes on everything going on? Argue with this.
1. Little folk are everywhere. Like, freaking everywhere.
2. Harry has demonstrated numerous times that they can be bribed and relied upon to give a basic "this happened then this happened then this happened" report.
3. They also can't lie.
4. Mab is a Queen of Faerie. She already has demonstrated through interference with Toot and Lacuna that they defer to her will.
So what on earth makes you think that, if Harry's not there to defend himself, that somehow Mab is forced to accept her Knight's murderer's version of events, just because Harry isn't around to argue it? Why wouldnt she use the same argument of bad luck and gross incompetence?
I'm pretty sure that would make Nicodemus seem more guilty, not less.
So when she and Harry talk about the swords before joining the evil league of evil, that would be a great point for her to act on her newfound convictions and say, "Hey, by the way, you can have 'em back whenever. I'll tell you where they are in a more secure place." And yes, Harry doesn't ask for them back. If he ever wants Karrin to give them back, one way to NOT convince her is to ask, "Hey, can I have the swords now?" every time they meet. Sheesh.
What? Are you serious?
Ok, Michael expresses misgivings five years after seeing Dresden touch the coin. His main sin against Dresden is that he's been giving him funny looks. He trusts Dresden to have a one-on-one with Nick several times and to manage pretty much everything that's happening in SF. NOT TO MENTION that he's trusting Harry to closely mentor his oldest daughter in the same arts that he believes Harry must give up to be free of the shadow. His conversation with him at the edge of PG prove that he still trusts Harry to find a worthy recipient of the sword. And when Harry calls Michael out on his misgivings, Michael listens.
Flipside: on Harry's first day of being on duty as the Winter Knight, Karrin tells him that she's taken the Swords and won't give them back and that it's to protect them against Harry turning into a monster. Just because shevs been up front with this does not mean that she trusts Harry not to become a monster, and certainly not more than a man who has trusted Harry with the swords for five freaking years.
Look, I'm not trying to say that if Harry had followed this plan, everything would have been sunshine, daffodils, and butterflies. I don't know that. No one knows that. I'm even willing to admit that it could take some sort of miracle-level of intervention to get their butts out. But that's exactly what happens when the Knights of the cross trust in their God and make the best choices. I'm simply trying to say here that you can't say that Murphy only had one choice, and that was to make the sword vulnerable. Making the sword vulnerable and did absolutely nothing to help them.
It is precisely because Mab has eyes everywhere and she cannot lie which going to be the problem. She knew Harry is helping Butters, something she is not suppose to do. If things does come to some kind of a hearing, Mab cannot lie, she must admit that Harry did do monkey business and break a deal make in good faith. That is what I mean by order. Mab has to be honest with herself, no self deception for the fae. There is no such thing like arguing that it is an accident, not for Mab. Harry can, but Mab cannot.How is it that Mab can tell Harry in Cold Days that Harry had basically twisted and turned Molly from an innocent little girl into basically being his devoted servant, exactly what DuMorne almost did, in order to justify her actions and still not be lying? Because there’s many different ways that the truth can be perceived. What Mab does not know, cannot know, is Harry’s true intentions. No one can know that for sure. This means that there’s a level of ambiguity here. Besides, Mab clearly thinks that Harry’s methods are at times incompetent – she makes as much clear in the beginning of SG.
This is why Mab need a mortal knight to do her bidding. Why she does not just send another sidhe. Because sidhe can't lie, and can't do self deception.Um, no – actually, the books clearly state that Mab needs a Knight because she herself can’t kill an unaffiliated mortal. That’s why the Winter Knight is cheerfully referred to as Mab’s hitman.
The word "Bad luck" and "incompetence" is not in her dictionary.Well…
”I’ll fulfill commands; I’ve done it before.”OK. So, not incompetent. Inept. It’s pretty clear that Mab thinks that, though Harry’s actions get results, that he’s got a pretty screwy way of getting the job done. And if her own knight gets killed in the process, I’m pretty sure that she would believe that Harry was inept.
“In your own inept way, yes.” Mab said.
As for Murphy. Yes, she could mention returning the sword back to Harry anytime after CD. Could, but not must. Though the chances is not as ample as you might think. As we know Harry is isolated in the island and the opportunity for such an important discussion is very limited between CD and SG.
This has nothing to do with trust. Trust go both ways. Once Harry let things go and allow Murphy to held the swords, he should trust Murphy to handle it. Asking only Murphy to demonstrate trust is entirely unbalance. Harry understand this. Which is why in SG, Harry ask Murphy is she considering to bring the sword into play. He does not demand, order, or interrogate. He ask, politely, because Harry already left things in Murphy's hands. The arrangement is finalize between them. Harry agrees, Murphy agrees and nobody complains. That is solid fact.
As for Harry being totally cool and having no complaints about Murph, and the implication that he didn’t just surrender them to her to hold out of his grasp, but to be the new de-facto distributor of swords and appointer of knights… yeah… not so sure about that. Sure, he complied with her wishes in Cold Days, but Karrin used a lot of passive aggression, pre-emptive control, and subtle shame to get him to see her way. I’m in the camp that believes that she was not acting like a friend to Dresden in this, and her viewpoint of him colored his own personal viewpoint of himself: someone who is no longer worthy to have the sword. Karrin was acting like a cop to a perp, not a friend to a friend.
I think it doesn’t much matter if Harry’s dead or alive; even if Nick kills everyone, he’s not the only witness. As I said, Mab has many servants with eyes open in the mortal world, not to mention the fact that she herself is likely keeping tabs on the operation. Why else is it that Dresden considers the vault to be literally the only place that Nick could double-cross him without word spreading?It's not a court of law, and we don't know that Mab's watching -- Mab isn't a babysitter, and in fact, given the plot kind of requires her to not be involved, her watching could get her in more trouble.
Mab has a vested interest in screwing Nick over; I don’t believe that she would just take Nick’s word at heart and swap in another winter goon. That would pretty much ensure that Nick would walk out with all holy artifacts. In the event of Harry’s death, it’s Mab’s word against Nicodemus’, and Mab’s perception that matters.
First – yes, her talk about having faith and deciding to not be afraid that her friends will turn into monsters does sound like Michael. Why isn’t she taking her own advice? If she’s not going to live in fear that Dresden will turn into a monster, then why is she still self-appointed custodian?Michael has a lot of faith. He still wears kevlar. She has faith, but it's not blind. She gains faith that Harry is Harry, yes, but she's bright enough not to give him the keys until he's sobered up.
Second – the Catholic Church has nothing to do with this. The point is that their creed believes that people given authority are ordained by God. Regardless of how corrupt or not corrupt the church is, Murphy believes in the power behind it, which is why she shouldn’t have self-appointed herself.This "self-appointed" thing is given way too much weight, as if she had this big ceremony and declared to the world at large that the Swords were hers and she was all powerful.
Third – by hiding the swords at Michael’s, she’s made him in the game. Pure and simple.This is true; she doesn't have a lot of choices on this, though. She could put them at the BFS, but that puts them were Marcone or Vadderungn could get them. She doesn't want to keep them together -- especially after Daniel spilled the beans to the White Court in Ghost Story. Michael's house is probably the safest place for them, and you're right, them being there puts Michael back in the game, but as long as he's not "officially" holding it, he's still kind of got an out.
Bottom line – whether Harry entrusted the swords to her in his will or not, he’s not dead anymore. He’s very much alive, and she claims that having faith and trust in Dresden is the very thing that he needs most, and that she’s decided not to be afraid that he might turn into a monster.Yes -- in Skin Game. She might well have been more open to giving Harry the Swords in Skin Game. We don't know, because Harry never asks her to give them to him. He's accepted that she's holding them for now.
Absolutely! And this is the beauty of the entire situation. We know that Michael’s fear is completely misplaced. We know that Michael fears that his friend might have succumbed to the darkness. Dresden calls him out on it, and Michael decides to trust in and have faith in his friend. It’s a beautiful moment in this, because Harry asks Michael to trust him as he literally seems to be about to give the swords away to the Denarians. And Michael decides to trust his friend and have faith.Yeah. My point was, Michael's faith in Harry wasn't so absolute until he saw him get over something that he thought was impossible. Murphy is at that point in Cold Days -- and after Harry comes back and is obviously still Harry, things have changed.
I think this is part of the reason why later on, Michael outright laughs at Harry’s fear of descending into darkness, reminding him that he’s “pathologically unable to know when to quit.” Michael’s been down the same road as Karrin and has grown in faith and character. If Karrin’s talk about faith did come from Michael, this is likely why – because he’s been there. He knows what she’s afraid of.
Even assuming that a blackened Denarius containing a Fallen wouldn’t trigger some sort of response from the guardian angels – something that I find surprising, considering the being inside it and the danger that a Denarius represents to any mortal – how do you figure that Nick can retrieve it as simply as that? Stroll in, sure. The second he touches it, he’s a Knight of the Blackened Denarius again, who has Anduriel working through him to influence the physical world. A millisecond later, he’s a Knight of the Blackened Ash Pile on the Front Steps. And if he goes and retrieves it without touching the coin, he’s essentially defenseless and proving that he isn’t relinquishing the coin.Don't forget how Harry got his coin in the first place. By just picking it up in Michael's yard and strolling out.
Why else does Harry consider Michael’s house to be the best place in the city to go to for shelter from fallen angels? Harry comes to the conclusion that Butters must be going to Michael’s house before he figures out that the swords are there. If the angelic sentry doesn’t provide protection, then Butters is far better off going to a public location – possibly holy ground at Saint Mary of the Angels, rather than a house full of innocent, vulnerable children.Harry is considering an attack. Not someone picking up the coin in the yard and leaving peacefully. And Harry doesn't know exactly how everything works, either.
Come on. Murphy is the Dresden Files’ Batman; a mortal who holds her own through smarts, competence, and planning for every eventuality. You think she brought a Sword along to kill Denarians and would have forgotten to bring something to grab the coin that topples out? Ten to one that if she’s not wearing leather gloves (I mean, it is winter, and the book doesn’t describe her hands) that she’s at least got a run-of-the-mill handkerchief or ziplock bag in her pocket. It would be out of character for Karrin to not plan for this.If she had planned for everything, she wouldn't have been in that situation in the first place.
Going from a two-handed to the weaker one-handed grip (and yes, a katana can be held and fought with one-handed), reaching her other hand in her pocket to retrieve a handkerchief, crouching and retrieving the coin while still holding the sword to Nick and not taking her eyes off of him, does still compromise her attention and position. This is true. But if Nick acts in sudden aggression or acts to retrieve the coin, then he’s no longer surrendered and Karrin can strike. Then he’s standing there with no noose on his neck, possibly no coin, facing a sword that can literally end him. This is not a better position. Yes, he could possibly turn the tables, but that’s by no means a sure thing – and in that case, she just merely has another trap with another choice.Yes, then Karrin can strike -- while she's off-balance and in a weakened position. Nicodemus hash killed Knights before, and as he proves seconds later, he's a more dangerous hand-to-hand combatant than Karrin. He's someone who if you give him an inch, he'll take two miles.
It's not a court of law, and we don't know that Mab's watching -- Mab isn't a babysitter, and in fact, given the plot kind of requires her to not be involved, her watching could get her in more trouble.So, if Mab’s not watching, and the little folk aren’t reliable, and Nicodemus kills Harry AND Karrin AND Butters, and it’s just Nicodemus and the Genoskwa’s word… this somehow makes Nicodemus’ word more reliable?
Harry is Mab's eyes and ears, and this is very much a "winners write the story" situation. Harry's orders were clear -- stop the doctor, keep him from telling anyone about what's going on. The whole "time limit" is pointless rules lawyering that's not going to come up, because there isn't going to be some indepth inquiry into it.
Nicodemus was there; he's effectively holding all the cards, and Mab can't argue against him because of that animosity -- she'd end up accused of purposefully sabotaging him if she backs Harry against Nicodemus's word.
As for the pixies, they are absolutely not reliable witnesses. They have no grasp of the kind of nuance and intricacies of the kind of story that would exonerate Harry here. Remember the largest, most powerful, smartest pixie we know responded to Harry's request to watch his back by literally looking at Harry's back. They are good at small, focused, short-term things, if you know how to talk to them and how to direct them. They are not going to be able to give an accurate play-by-play of what Harry was doing and why.
Hell, she probably doesn't want them. They're a huge responsibility on top of all the other shit she's got to handle.Not arguing with you there. Murph puts a huge amount of responsibility on her shoulders. Poor Karrin.
We don't know, because Harry never asks her to give them to him. He's accepted that she's holding them for now.Remember that in Skin Game, when Harry asks Karrin if she’s going to bring in the swords, he still thinks that she sees him being turned into a monster. It’s not until his first talk with Michael that he realizes that the reason why Karrin only went to the island a handful of times is because it’s a terribly psychologically scarring place. Why would he ask to be the custodian at that point? From his point of view, what’s changed?
It's ironic that when Harry is most mentally capable of being a responsible custodian is also when he is not willing to ask for them back.
My point was, Michael's faith in Harry wasn't so absolute until he saw him get over something that he thought was impossible.You’re getting the order wrong. When Harry confronted Michael in his workshop, he gave Michael no evidence that the shadow was gone. He just asked Michael to trust him, to have faith. Michael doesn’t actually see evidence that the shadow is gone until they’re on Demonreach, surrounded by Denarians, with Dresden holding a sword of faith and acting as if he’s going to make it vulnerable and break it. You don’t get to that point unless you have faith that your friend is telling the truth.
Don't forget how Harry got his coin in the first place. By just picking it up in Michael's yard and strolling out.It’s stated several times in the books since Small Favor that the angelic guard is part of Michael’s retirement package. In other words, Dresden picked up the coin before there were a dozen angels poised to attack the yard. Otherwise, how could Gruffs have attacked in the beginning of Small Favor, or the Fetches in Proven Guilty?
We don't know what the Angelic response would be, but we do know that mortals can literally burn the place down without interference, and we've already seen one person pick up a coin and walk out of Michael's yard without trouble.
If she had planned for everything, she wouldn't have been in that situation in the first place.That’s a weak argument. It’s several orders of magnitude easier to prepare to pick up a Denarian’s coin than to have prepared for “If Butters follows us and listens in and is caught, and we follow him through the city in order to save him, and I’m showing up late to the stalemate between Nicodemus and Dresden because a taxi caused me to swerve into a swimming pool, how best should I approach the situation?”
Yes, then Karrin can strike -- while she's off-balance and in a weakened position. Nicodemus hash killed Knights before, and as he proves seconds later, he's a more dangerous hand-to-hand combatant than Karrin. He's someone who if you give him an inch, he'll take two miles.So we agree on this, then? Again, not saying that this is sunshine, daisies, and clear skies ahead, and not saying that there might not be a Knight-level of miracle needed to pull their butts out of the fire. Karrin, holding the sword of faith, had no faith that doing the actions of a knight would save Dresden. If she had put her faith in TWG, she would have called Nick’s bluff and broken this stalemate, and brought them to a different sort of conflict. But if Karrin is actually acting as a knight should, then I think that she should have a knight’s superpower – that regardless of how difficult or dangerous the threat is, she always has the ability to overcome it.
How is it that Mab can tell Harry in Cold Days that Harry had basically twisted and turned Molly from an innocent little girl into basically being his devoted servant, exactly what DuMorne almost did, in order to justify her actions and still not be lying? Because there’s many different ways that the truth can be perceived. What Mab does not know, cannot know, is Harry’s true intentions. No one can know that for sure. This means that there’s a level of ambiguity here. Besides, Mab clearly thinks that Harry’s methods are at times incompetent – she makes as much clear in the beginning of SG.
Just to lawyer things out a bit, just to make things a bit of a headache: Nick gave no specific time limit. He told Dresden to end the little doctor and return to headquarters. These words do not imply that one must be taken care of before the other; that would be “end the little doctor and then return to headquarters." The fact that Harry moved Butters out of Nick’s influence does not mean that Harry cannot still end him that night, or the next night, or ninety years from now when Butters already lies dying in a hospital bed. Yes, this is a weak argument, but it is still true. By the letter of the agreement, Harry did not break the contract yet. Legally speaking, this would only happen if Dresden outright refused to kill Butters, if Nick gave a specific time period in which to do it in, or if Butters died before Harry could off him. And it is the letter of the law, rather than the spirit of the law, that Mab cares about.
There is precedent for this. When Harry summons Toot, especially in the first books, he has to be specific about time periods and try not to fall asleep, because Toot could consider their contract fulfilled if he reported back to Harry far in the future, or while Harry was sleeping. These kinds of details matter to the fae.
True, Nicodemus does not know that Mab is hell-bent on seeing him burn. He knows that she has no respect for him (per their meeting in the beginning of SG) and can’t think that she’s particularly fond of him after he basically spat all over her accords. So I think that he would want to make sure that if things did get all murdery, that it would look much more like a cut-and-dry, black-and-white situation. That doesn’t seem like the kind of thing that one puts up to chance.
Um, no – actually, the books clearly state that Mab needs a Knight because she herself can’t kill an unaffiliated mortal. That’s why the Winter Knight is cheerfully referred to as Mab’s hitman.
Well…OK. So, not incompetent. Inept. It’s pretty clear that Mab thinks that, though Harry’s actions get results, that he’s got a pretty screwy way of getting the job done. And if her own knight gets killed in the process, I’m pretty sure that she would believe that Harry was inept.
Those are all good points. I could see Murphy intending on returning the swords, but the time just doesn’t seem to present itself. It seems a bit of a stretch, especially after they find out that Sanya’s on the other side of the world and it doesn’t seem likely that another knight will appear that she would ‘forget’ to let Harry know that she decided to relinquish her control of the swords, but yeah, I’ll agree to that. It’s certainly possible, and things are hectic and crazy enough in Skin Game.
As for Harry being totally cool and having no complaints about Murph, and the implication that he didn’t just surrender them to her to hold out of his grasp, but to be the new de-facto distributor of swords and appointer of knights… yeah… not so sure about that. Sure, he complied with her wishes in Cold Days, but Karrin used a lot of passive aggression, pre-emptive control, and subtle shame to get him to see her way. I’m in the camp that believes that she was not acting like a friend to Dresden in this, and her viewpoint of him colored his own personal viewpoint of himself: someone who is no longer worthy to have the sword. Karrin was acting like a cop to a perp, not a friend to a friend.
Mr. Death’s already done an excellent job arguing against my point of view on this subject, and I believe that this is largely a point of opinion; not something that can be proven either way. I’m speaking from my personal experience after seeing many people in real life use these exact same tactics to get control of others and shame them into doing their will. This is an “agree to disagree” point to me, and so unless you have some sort of evidence that hasn’t already been brought up, I’m cool with us having differing opinions on this.
So, if Mab’s not watching, and the little folk aren’t reliable, and Nicodemus kills Harry AND Karrin AND Butters, and it’s just Nicodemus and the Genoskwa’s word… this somehow makes Nicodemus’ word more reliable?
So we agree on this, then? Again, not saying that this is sunshine, daisies, and clear skies ahead, and not saying that there might not be a Knight-level of miracle needed to pull their butts out of the fire. Karrin, holding the sword of faith, had no faith that doing the actions of a knight would save Dresden. If she had put her faith in TWG, she would have called Nick’s bluff and broken this stalemate, and brought them to a different sort of conflict. But if Karrin is actually acting as a knight should, then I think that she should have a knight’s superpower – that regardless of how difficult or dangerous the threat is, she always has the ability to overcome it.
Mab does not truly understand humanity on some aspect, that is true, which is why she can say what she said about Molly and be so, well, not wrong exactly, but twisted. She is after all, not human.Jimmy, I only have a few minutes, so I want to address this one point real quick. I think that you're missing something very important about Faerie law, something that I've said numerous times.
But if you tell me that Mab, the queen of winter, mistress of all evil faerie, does not understand scheming, deception, plotting and cheating in the games of power, no one would believed you. Monkey business like Harry did with Butters is her breakfast when she is 3 years old. There is no way she'll fail to understood Harry's intent in this regard, and if she can't truly and honestly misunderstood, she can't lie to herself to do so.
Jimmy, I only have a few minutes, so I want to address this one point real quick. I think that you're missing something very important about Faerie law, something that I've said numerous times.
The unseelie accords don't care about intent. They don't care if you're playing fair or not. They care about what is done.
In Grave Peril, pretty much the primer for the Accords, the Red Court screws Harry over in every way possible. They send their hit goon duo to try to take out Dresden multiple times. They poison all the food at their bash. They steal Amoracchius and force Harry into a position where it will be destroyed if he doesn't act. They even give him a gravestone. There is no mistake: they intend to kill Dresden that night.
And yet, when he does finally act, he is the one who is breaking the Accords. Because it doesn't matter the intent, it matters the act.
Consider this situation: Mab is sending Harry to work with Nicodemus with the expressed intent for him to destroy his plans and make him burn. She says that if he is to live, he is to skin them alive.
So, under your argument, Mab is also breaking her accords. She's entering into this not under good faith, but with the intent to destroy him. She does everything she can to make it happen.
Wouldn't Mab also be breaking her own accords?
NO. Because what matters is the action she takes.
Harry stuck to the letter of the agreement. He had not betrayed Nick yet. And any whiny argument from Nick about, "well, he didn't kill the mortal I wanted dead immediately, and was totally going to kill me anyways" would be met by the scorn it deserves.
In the case of Butters, Mab told Harry to assist Nick. Nick orders to "end Butters". Harry need to fulfill this condition, or else. There is no escape. Failure to satisfy this condition will result in consequences. A price must be paid. Again, Harry can do anything here. He can even actually help Butters to escape and he'll be find, so long as Butters is caught or killed in the end, Harry will be fulfilling the deal. The moment Butters cross over Michael's fence line, once it is determine beyond a doubt that he won't die, Harry already broken the deal. And no, you can't argue that there is no time limit to end Butters, because there is a limit, though it may not be a time limit. Remember book 10, Eldest gruf told Harry that the moment Harry leave the island and into Chicago, eldest gruf won't go after him anymore. The matter is ended there and eldest gruf would be considered failing the task. The same in Butters's case. Butters must die before a certain limit or Harry will be considered as fail. The carriage will return back into a pumpkin at midnight, for example. There is always a limit.
It depends on the fine print of the agreement or bargain.. Anyone knows that is Fae Bargaining 101.. The Fae cannot lie, but they know how to bargain to their advantage.. Mab told Harry to "assist" Nic, but that doesn't mean he is under Nic's command... That give Harry some wiggle room, he didn't have to kill Butters, only take him out of the action.. By bodily throwing him into Michael's yard, he was removed from the action as effectively as if he had killed him... Harry also said clearly how it could be explained, he is incompetent, or just unlucky.. And since it was all part of a ploy on Nic's part, his intent was never to kill Harry, nobody really violated anything..
Actually no. What matters is not the intent nor the act. What matters is the result.You say potato, I say po-tah-to. Sure, I’ll agree to that. They mean the same.
I mention "Intent" because you argue that Mab could lawyer herself out of her word by using a mere excuse like "Harry forzaring Butters is an honest attempt to kill him".Nope. I lawyer myself with the mere excuse that “Harry Forzare-ing Butters does not in itself signify a refusal to kill him.” This puts him out of Nicodemus’ reach, but still perfectly killable by Dresden. Now, if Nick’s last command was “Stand aside so I can end him for you,” then he would be defying Nicodemus.
In this context of argument, intent matters, because in order to be able to do this Mab need to misperceive Harry's intent and do it intentionally.Nope. She merely has to point out that he neither disobeyed a direct command nor offered him violence.
By the way, GP and the unceli accords are bad examples.The unseelie accords are excellent examples. As a guide for etiquette between powers written by Mab herself, it gives us an excellent view into her interpretation of treachery and underhandedness. Similar to her laws at Harry’s party, adhering to the letter of the law is what is important, not the spirit of the law. And it is not an insult to her character to use this; as it is her law, it is evidence.
In the case of Harry's birthday party, The rule is simple: As long as there is no blood spilled on the floor, Mab is cool with it. In this case, result matters. Is there blood spilled on the floor? That is all that matters. Mab did not care about the rest. Maeve can have all the intent to kill Harry, and she can take all action to achieve her intent, but so long as no blood is actually spilled, Mab won't care.Yes! Absolutely. This is exactly my point. Mab didn’t swoop in and kill Harry and the Redcap before the end of the fight, just because it was probable that blood would be shed; she stepped in when the deed was done. And at this point, Harry has not yet disobeyed Nick.
Again, Harry can do anything here. He can even actually help Butters to escape and he'll be find, so long as Butters is caught or killed in the end, Harry will be fulfilling the deal.Yup! Thank you for arguing my point.
The moment Butters cross over Michael's fence line, once it is determine beyond a doubt that he won't die, Harry already broken the deal. And no, you can't argue that there is no time limit to end Butters, because there is a limit, though it may not be a time limit. Remember book 10, Eldest gruf told Harry that the moment Harry leave the island and into Chicago, eldest gruf won't go after him anymore. The matter is ended there and eldest gruf would be considered failing the task. The same in Butters's case. Butters must die before a certain limit or Harry will be considered as fail. The carriage will return back into a pumpkin at midnight, for example. There is always a limit.Crossing Michael’s fence does not determine beyond a doubt that he won’t die. It only determines that Nicodemus won’t be holding the axe that does it. You are correct, though, that there is a time limit; I was mistaken to say that Harry could come back years later. Nick states that the reason for ending Butters is due to the danger he poses from the operation and his connection with Marcone; one would assume that as soon as Butters is away from the conflict and in a position to contact others, he would be out of play and Harry’s opportunity to follow Nicodemus’ commands would be over.
In the birthday party case. If it is Harry who spill blood on the floor and not some sidhe, do you think Mab would just kill Harry?Um, yes. Absolutely. She is Mab, not some sort of mortal ruler that will be so completely disrespected by that. Her Knight disobey her law, thumb his nose at it as if he was somehow an equal to him? She would visit such horrors on him that he could not comprehend, and when he died, she would find a knight that would actually follow orders. Maybe Thomas.
“Not quite. There are two laws all must follow under pain of death.”
“Only two? Man, how do unseelie lawyers make a living?”
“First,” Sarissa said, ignoring my wiseassery, “Blood may not be spilled upon the floor of the court without the Queen’s expressed command.”
“No murder without getting a nod first, got it. Second?”
“No one may speak to the queen without her expressed command.”
I snorted. “Seriously? Because I’m not much for keeping my mouth shut. In fact, I’m pretty sure I physically can’t. Probably because I was influenced at an impressionable age. Did you ever read any Spider-Man comics when you were-“
“Harry,” Sarissa said, her voice suddenly tight. She put her hand on my arm, and her lean fingers were like heavy wires. “No one speaks to the Queen,” she whispered intently. ”No one. Not even the lady Maeve dares disobey that law.” She shuddered. “I’ve seen what happens. We all have.”
Breaking the simple truce is bad enough, breaking Mab's promise is absolutely deadly for Harry, and Harry has broken both at once. A price must be paid to cover this breach. By breaking fid, Murphy with Michael's help cover this gap.
OK, first thing – Mira, some of the things you said weren’t true. Harry is under Nick’s command as he is commanded by Mab to offer Nick what aid he requires. Second, him moving Butters into Michael’s yard is in no way similar to him killing Butters; Nicodemus states that Butters must die because he’s a threat to their operations: not only does he know too much, but he’s affiliated with Marcone, their target. Moving him to the yard does nothing to resolve this situation.
So yeah, loop holes and after it was over Sword broken, Murphy shattered, Nic laughed it was all a ruse, he never really was going to kill Harry..Because he was lying.
Because he was lying.
Unless, of course, Harry's overriding goal in giving pursuit of Butters was to shut him up, and not to try to help him escape. (Spoiler alert, it's the latter.)
Because he was lying.When Nicodemus has a good motive to lie he will do so. It is in his nature, it is what he does. He even lies when it is against his interest for example when he stated his goals to Harry. Lies and betrayal are what they do, they can't help it. It is their nature.
When Nicodemus has a good motive to lie he will do so. It is in his nature, it is what he does. He even lies when it is against his interest for example when he stated his goals to Harry. Lies and betrayal are what they do, they can't help it. It is their nature.I have trouble thinking of anytime that it's shown Nic has outright willfully lied about something. He tends to play it like the fae in that regard, he knows the game well at hand.
He may add some truths to make it believable but you can safely assume his essential message is a lie. Especially if he has good motives for it and here he can achieve several goals by lying.
Never use Nicodemus statements as proof for anything except maybe the opposite of what he is saying.
OK, first thing – Mira, some of the things you said weren’t true. Harry is under Nick’s command as he is commanded by Mab to offer Nick what aid he requires. Second, him moving Butters into Michael’s yard is in no way similar to him killing Butters; Nicodemus states that Butters must die because he’s a threat to their operations: not only does he know too much, but he’s affiliated with Marcone, their target. Moving him to the yard does nothing to resolve this situation.
You say potato, I say po-tah-to. Sure, I’ll agree to that. They mean the same.
Nope. I lawyer myself with the mere excuse that “Harry Forzare-ing Butters does not in itself signify a refusal to kill him.” This puts him out of Nicodemus’ reach, but still perfectly killable by Dresden. Now, if Nick’s last command was “Stand aside so I can end him for you,” then he would be defying Nicodemus.
Nope. She merely has to point out that he neither disobeyed a direct command nor offered him violence.
The unseelie accords are excellent examples. As a guide for etiquette between powers written by Mab herself, it gives us an excellent view into her interpretation of treachery and underhandedness. Similar to her laws at Harry’s party, adhering to the letter of the law is what is important, not the spirit of the law. And it is not an insult to her character to use this; as it is her law, it is evidence.
Yes! Absolutely. This is exactly my point. Mab didn’t swoop in and kill Harry and the Redcap before the end of the fight, just because it was probable that blood would be shed; she stepped in when the deed was done. And at this point, Harry has not yet disobeyed Nick.
Yup! Thank you for arguing my point.
Crossing Michael’s fence does not determine beyond a doubt that he won’t die. It only determines that Nicodemus won’t be holding the axe that does it. You are correct, though, that there is a time limit; I was mistaken to say that Harry could come back years later. Nick states that the reason for ending Butters is due to the danger he poses from the operation and his connection with Marcone; one would assume that as soon as Butters is away from the conflict and in a position to contact others, he would be out of play and Harry’s opportunity to follow Nicodemus’ commands would be over.
So he’s not disobeyed just yet. Until Butters gets up and runs into the house, Harry (or, I suppose, Murphy) could still shoot him. They’re both mortals and wouldn’t be affected by the angelic protection.
Um, yes. Absolutely. She is Mab, not some sort of mortal ruler that will be so completely disrespected by that. Her Knight disobey her law, thumb his nose at it as if he was somehow an equal to him? She would visit such horrors on him that he could not comprehend, and when he died, she would find a knight that would actually follow orders. Maybe Thomas.
I mean, come on. Mab’s already made it clear that she will not tolerate a knight in rebellion. Santa Claus warns Harry of the same exact thing – don’t disrespect her in front of others. Besides, Sarissa’s pretty clear that Harry needs to follow these laws on pain of death.
And onto the last one…
No – the breaking of Fidelacchius is not some sort of offering in order to cover a debt that Harry incurred to Nicodemus. It doesn’t work like that. The truce between them is in effect until such time as Harry helps Nicodemus remove the contents of a vault. Once broken, it’s broken. Besides, Nick earned that breaking of the sword by his actions; he worked his butt off to get it. It was no offering given as recompense.
I have trouble thinking of anytime that it's shown Nic has outright willfully lied about something. He tends to play it like the fae in that regard, he knows the game well at han
And I repeat. Harry, Murphy, Michael and Butters absolutely believed that Nick can and would kill them. It is clear in their words and actions. Harry even specifically mention the word "Quid pro quo" in his innor monolog.
In order for this interpretation of yours to be true, we have to ignore text evidence from 4 high intelligent and credible main characters, all of them pointed to the fact that Nick can and would kill Harry, in favor of a single sentence from a villain character with the worse reputation possible.We all know that Nic and and will try to kill Harry, no one is doubting that.. But at that particular moment, killing him wouldn't have served Nic's purpose... It was a ruse, a very successful ruse because all four of your main characters believed it.
I have trouble thinking of anytime that it's shown Nic has outright willfully lied about something. He tends to play it like the fae in that regard, he knows the game well at hand.
“First,” I said, “Nicodemus is after something powerful. I don’t know what it is, but I do know that if I can get him to tell us what he’s after, it’s going to be a lie. He’d never let anyone know his true goal if he could help it.”
“I concur,” Kringle said.
Not only is Nicodemus a liar, Harry's strategy is based on it and Kringle agrees. Mark that if Nicodemus had not lied he would have had his favorite artifact and not the grail. Nicodemus lies even if it works against him.
The same in small favor. Harry's strategy is based on Nicodemus breaking the truce because denarians will always break their word, will always lie.
So in a situation where Nicodemus has something to gain and is difficult to check he will tell anything that suits him and his words can not be used to prove anything.
That is really laughable since his aim has always been to break a Holy Sword or get one out of commission... That's no lie,Prove? There is none.
and rubbing a little salt in Harry's wounds in the process by gloating about his success is typical...That is the whole point. He is saying these words to rub salt in Harry's wounds not because they are true. He would have said them if they were false as well if they were equally effective. So these words prove nothing.
OK, don’t have much time, but I’ll quickly respond to each in turn.So, if Mab’s not watching, and the little folk aren’t reliable, and Nicodemus kills Harry AND Karrin AND Butters, and it’s just Nicodemus and the Genoskwa’s word… this somehow makes Nicodemus’ word more reliable?Yes, by default.
Not all little folk are as completely ditzy as dewdrop faeries. The Cobbs who live at the Carpenters’ house, for example, are far more level-headed and intelligent but just have an extreme obsession with shoes. We just see a lot of ditzy faeries because that’s who seems to be attracted by Dresden’s pizza bribery. Lacuna has a bit more intelligence than Toot, for example, and her fairy death squad are a bit more capable than Toot’s as well.The Cobbs who were all but blackmailed into scouting out a couple Black Court vampires? They're not going anywhere near a fight like Harry's.
Remember that in Skin Game, when Harry asks Karrin if she’s going to bring in the swords, he still thinks that she sees him being turned into a monster. It’s not until his first talk with Michael that he realizes that the reason why Karrin only went to the island a handful of times is because it’s a terribly psychologically scarring place. Why would he ask to be the custodian at that point? From his point of view, what’s changed?It's not about how he views it. It's about how he thinks and acts. Harry's not going to consciously think, "I don't want the Swords back, therefore I should have the Swords back," because that's self-contradictory.
You’re getting the order wrong. When Harry confronted Michael in his workshop, he gave Michael no evidence that the shadow was gone. He just asked Michael to trust him, to have faith. Michael doesn’t actually see evidence that the shadow is gone until they’re on Demonreach, surrounded by Denarians, with Dresden holding a sword of faith and acting as if he’s going to make it vulnerable and break it. You don’t get to that point unless you have faith that your friend is telling the truth.Michael also had the fact that Harry had been acting like Harry for the past several years; he didn't have, for instance, Harry having broken into a friend's house and injured someone to steal a powerful magical artifact.
It’s stated several times in the books since Small Favor that the angelic guard is part of Michael’s retirement package. In other words, Dresden picked up the coin before there were a dozen angels poised to attack the yard. Otherwise, how could Gruffs have attacked in the beginning of Small Favor, or the Fetches in Proven Guilty?Fair, I'd forgotten that.
That’s a weak argument. It’s several orders of magnitude easier to prepare to pick up a Denarian’s coin than to have prepared for “If Butters follows us and listens in and is caught, and we follow him through the city in order to save him, and I’m showing up late to the stalemate between Nicodemus and Dresden because a taxi caused me to swerve into a swimming pool, how best should I approach the situation?”"Murphy prepares for everything" is also a weak argument, because it's not exactly true. She prepares as best she can, in general and specific when she can.
So we agree on this, then? Again, not saying that this is sunshine, daisies, and clear skies ahead, and not saying that there might not be a Knight-level of miracle needed to pull their butts out of the fire. Karrin, holding the sword of faith, had no faith that doing the actions of a knight would save Dresden. If she had put her faith in TWG, she would have called Nick’s bluff and broken this stalemate, and brought them to a different sort of conflict. But if Karrin is actually acting as a knight should, then I think that she should have a knight’s superpower – that regardless of how difficult or dangerous the threat is, she always has the ability to overcome it.The problem is still with your assumption that Nicodemus was bluffing at all. He's not. He has no reason to, because Harry absolutely did double cross him, and when Nicodemus talks about the "ploy," he is directly and explicitly likening his "ploy" story with Harry's "I was honestly trying to help stop Butters, honest," story.
Not only is Nicodemus a liar, Harry's strategy is based on it and Kringle agrees. Mark that if Nicodemus had not lied he would have had his favorite artifact and not the grail. Nicodemus lies even if it works against him.Err concealing intention is not outright lying fyi, still in fae territory not outright lying. show me outright lying not proof nic will deceive, not the same thing I was pointing at. Point of fact Nic goes out of his way to avoid stating outright lies to anyone that I've seen. Which is well within the ability of the fae who can't lie. another point, Mab was also dealing in bad faith, but she never outright lied about anything in SG either so...
The same in small favor. Harry's strategy is based on Nicodemus breaking the truce because denarians will always break their word, will always lie.
So in a situation where Nicodemus has something to gain and is difficult to check he will tell anything that suits him and his words can not be used to prove anything.
Err concealing intention is not outright lying fyi, still in fae territory not outright lying. show me outright lying not proof nic will deceive, not the same thing I was pointing at. Point of fact Nic goes out of his way to avoid stating outright lies to anyone that I've seen. Which is well within the ability of the fae who can't lie. another point, Mab was also dealing in bad faith, but she never outright lied about anything in SG either so...He stated his intention and that was not his real intention. That is not conceiling something, that is lying. Kringle agrees and he can not lie.
He stated his intention and that was not his real intention. That is not conceiling something, that is lying. Kringle agrees and he can not lie.Mab stated her intention but that was not her intention, that would be a lie. Consider that his intentions were fluid and that any way it tended to go was ok with him, it's not lying. Kringle doesn't say he's going to straight up lie his ass off, and neither does he. besides this one game here, which by the letter of it was not lying, it was being deceptive, it was misdirection, it was letting the dice role, but he didn't lie directly to anyone about anything. Show me where he lied. Show me where Mab lied considering it was never her intention to help him achieve his goal? subtle distinctions.
I had two possible responses to his first attack in mind, and they had to be responses, not assaults of my own. When all this was over, I wanted there to be absolutely no question in Mab’s mind that he had turned on me, not the other way around.
I closed my eyes and ran back through her words in my head. “Your precise instructions,” I said slowly, “were to go with Nicodemus and help him until such time as he completed his objective.” “Indeed,” Mab said. “Which he stated was to remove the contents of a vault.” She leaned down, took a fistful of shirt in her hand, and pulled me back to my feet as easily as she might heft a chihuahua. “I never said what you would do after.”
“Ah, Dresden,” Nicodemus purred. “You caught him. And in the nick of time.” I set Butters down warily and kept him close to my side. The little guy didn’t move or speak, though I could feel him shuddering with sudden intelligent terror.
“Don’t be absurd,” Nicodemus said. “He’s heard entirely too much, and my files on him say that he’s associated with Marcone’s Chicago Alliance. Only an idiot wouldn’t recognize a potentially lethal security leak.” He tilted his head to one side. “He dies.”
“Dresden,” Nicodemus said, “I’m giving you ample chance to call off your dog before I put her down.“ His eyes flicked to me. “End the little doctor and come back to headquarters. There’s no reason I should have to kill all three of you.”
I saw it coming, what Nicodemus was doing. I tried to warn her, but as I tried to speak, the Genoskwa rapped my head back against the minivan and nothing came out.
“I surrender,” he said quietly, his voice mocking. He tilted his head slightly toward Butters. “And I relinquish my claim on the blood of the innocent. Have mercy on me, O Knight.”
“The hell you have!” I spat. “You’ve just ordered your goon to kill me. You’ve broken your contract with Mab.”
Nicodemus shifted his gaze to me and looked amused. “That?” he said. “Goodness, Dresden, can you not recognize a ploy when you see one?”
“What ploy?” I said.
“I needed to put a little pressure on Miss Murphy,” he said. “But you were never in any actual danger.”
With that being said, I’m a bit confused by your post. I don’t know why, for example, my argument only has weight if Butters died because you didn’t really elaborate. I don’t know why you don’t believe that the time limit of Nicodemus’ command doesn’t last until Butters breaks contact with Harry, because you haven’t said it. And everything you’re saying now about character POV and four witnesses was originally in a response to Mira, not me, and my post was a minute and thirty seconds after you wrote to Mira. Which is why I don’t appreciate you calling my theory lunacy when it’s clearly written without having first seen your argument.
1. There is a game going on between Nicodemus and Harry in regards to the truce between them. If Nicodemus can get Harry to break the truce first, Nick gets to kill Harry without consequence and gets a replacement Winter Knight to get through the Gate of Ice. If Harry can get Nicodemus to break the truce first, Mab no longer owes Nicodemus a Winter Knight for this task and Harry is free. If neither can get the other to break the truce, then presumably they go to the end and duke it out in Chicago.
2. Nicodemus knows that Harry doesn’t intend to help Nick get his goal, and Harry knows that Nicodemus will double-cross them. They both know that the other is only going through the motions.Very true, which by the way, Mab expects in fact states that she'd relish such a game..
3. Considering that everyone is trying to get the other to betray the other, the best way to get one player to betray the other is to either block them into a logical corner or to provoke them into an unthinking emotional response.Which is exactly what Nic did with Murphy when he made it look like Harry was about to be killed... Taking out two birds with one stone, Murphy and more importantly, a Holy Sword.
7. Nicodemus’ expressed goal is that Butters dies. His reasoning for it, which ties it to Harry’s obligation to give aid to Nick in his operation, is that Butters poses a security risk. These things by themselves do not yet obligate Harry to do the deed himself, but it does obligate Harry to not prevent it from happening and to provide what aid Nicodemus may require. This is the first trap.Indeed, which Butters unwittingly sprung.. Taking it a step further Nic most likely knew exactly what Butters was going to do via his shadow Andriel, so it became the perfect set up.
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8. At this point, Harry has determined that he and Butters have no choice but to break the contract, fight, and likely die. However, before they can actually move on this action, Karrin steps in with her ‘rocket launcher’ and threatens them, attempting to make Nicodemus reconsider his logical trap. She positions herself in close proximity to Nicodemus, draws the Sword, and attacks.I see that a little different, Nic doesn't care if Butters dies or not, but he knows Harry does.. Harry's reaction and action to the order were very predictable.. Harry is that kind of guy... Then all was needed was to put his head between Geno's mits with death seemingly certain.. Also predictable, Murphy would rush forth like an avenging angel with the Holy Sword Nic already knew she had hidden.. The second part of the trap has been sprung.. All that is left to do now on Nic's part, is to "lose" to Murphy, surrender, knowing that it isn't in her to accept and let him go to seek redemption.. She goes for execution instead and voila, a broken Holy Sword. Set, game, match...
b. Nicodemus pays a price for using this strategy: he states that he relinquishes his claim on Butters’ blood. This essentially frees Dresden (albeit temporarily) of the responsibility of having to kill Butters. This strategy would last about as long as Nicodemus has to keep up the charade of submitting to the Knight. But it does mean that Nicodemus doubly cannot kill Dresden at this point and use it as an argument to Mab. Not only is Butters still in Dresden’s area of influence, but Nick has essentially just taken back his claim on his life.
It doesn’t matter what lame excuse Nicodemus gives at this point. The point of the matter is that Harry states that the act of commanding the Genoskwa to kill him at this point, after Harry blasted Butters over the fence, would be breaking his contract with Mab. And Nicodemus doesn’t deny this. He weasels out instead by claiming he wasn’t breaking the contract because he didn’t actually put Dresden in danger.
What about Karrin being Dresden’s +1 and Harry being responsible for her actions? There are a number of instances in which Team Dresden and Team Nick clash and it isn’t considered a breach of contract. The Genoskwa smashes him up a bit in the warehouse and incapacitates him. Dresden smacks around Binder’s chaps in the chase. Heck, Michael attacks the Genoskwa first in the vault, but Harry’s still concerned about letting Nicodemus attack him first.That is negated by Nic saying he cannot be responsible for Murphy's safety, so she goes with Harry at her own risk, of her own free will, she was never ordered to go along..
Does that mean that you agree that my theory is lunacy? ::) I'd like to point out that I have a better track record than most, I called it that Butters would become a Holy Knight and got shot down for it pretty strongly at the time, but I was right..No, not at all - I don't think that your theory was lunacy. I didn't quite agree with it, but I can see where you were going with it. HuangJimmy was calling my response to him lunacy and acting as if I was ignoring this counter that he posed to you.
Simple question. When Harry gives chase to Butters, is his goal to keep Butters from getting killed, or is his goal to silence Butters for the good of the mission? Not, "Can he do both" or "Is there a way to keep Butters alive without breaking Mab's word" but what is his overriding goal?Harry's goal is to save Butters' life while going through the motions of stopping him. Just as Mab's goal is to screw Nicodemus seven times over while going through the motions of lending her knight to aid his project. Like a kid with a cookie jar, they're only in trouble if they get caught.
Mab stated her intention but that was not her intention, that would be a lie. Consider that his intentions were fluid and that any way it tended to go was ok with him, it's not lying. Kringle doesn't say he's going to straight up lie his ass off, and neither does he. besides this one game here, which by the letter of it was not lying, it was being deceptive, it was misdirection, it was letting the dice role, but he didn't lie directly to anyone about anything. Show me where he lied. Show me where Mab lied considering it was never her intention to help him achieve his goal? subtle distinctions.It is about Nicodemus lying, not Mab lying. Mab won't. Nicodemus is not bound to tell the truth the way Mab is so it makes no sense to expect him to follow rules the way Mab does.
A lie would be if he didn't want the cup, he does want the cup, that that wasn't what he wanted most doesn't suddenly make that a lie.
Just to be clear. Harry is commanded to help Nik with his operations. He is NOT commanded to obey Nik. The two are NOT the same thing, although most times they deliver the same results. Evidence:
* Harry refused to kill Butters
* Harry closed the portal back to the real world -- and Nik obviously did not order him to reopen it even those such an order was totally in Nik's best interests.
Err concealing intention is not outright lying fyi, still in fae territory not outright lying. show me outright lying not proof nic will deceive, not the same thing I was pointing at. Point of fact Nic goes out of his way to avoid stating outright lies to anyone that I've seen. Which is well within the ability of the fae who can't lie. another point, Mab was also dealing in bad faith, but she never outright lied about anything in SG either so...
Mab stated her intention but that was not her intention, that would be a lie. Consider that his intentions were fluid and that any way it tended to go was ok with him, it's not lying. Kringle doesn't say he's going to straight up lie his ass off, and neither does he. besides this one game here, which by the letter of it was not lying, it was being deceptive, it was misdirection, it was letting the dice role, but he didn't lie directly to anyone about anything. Show me where he lied. Show me where Mab lied considering it was never her intention to help him achieve his goal? subtle distinctions.
A lie would be if he didn't want the cup, he does want the cup, that that wasn't what he wanted most doesn't suddenly make that a lie.
((OK – I started writing when I saw HuangJimmy’s reply to me, and haven’t really seen anything else. I’ll respond to others when I can. But I mean, this sort of applies to everyone))
HuangJimmy: I’m afraid again that I might be being a bit rude or pushing too far. Your responses are getting a bit close to ad hominem. Please, let me know; if I’m being rude or offensive at all, or if you feel like I’m not listening to you, just tell me and I’ll bow out. This kind of debate and discussion is not fun if feelings get hurt or if we get rude to each other.
With that being said, I’m a bit confused by your post. I don’t know why, for example, my argument only has weight if Butters died because you didn’t really elaborate. I don’t know why you don’t believe that the time limit of Nicodemus’ command doesn’t last until Butters breaks contact with Harry, because you haven’t said it. And everything you’re saying now about character POV and four witnesses was originally in a response to Mira, not me, and my post was a minute and thirty seconds after you wrote to Mira. Which is why I don’t appreciate you calling my theory lunacy when it’s clearly written without having first seen your argument.
With that being said, I think that there’s clearly a bit of misunderstanding on what I’m actually arguing. I’ve been doing a lot of countering other people’s arguments, rather than stating clearly what I believe to be the case. So that’s what I’m going to do here: state clearly why I believe that Harry did not break the agreement at this point. And if you have any points of disagreement, you can respond directly to them and give your counter-evidence. And maybe then we can finally put this to bed so that I don’t have to keep defending this one tiny tangent, which supports my theory that Karrin actually could have become a knight at this point. Because remember, this thread’s all about Karrin.
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OK. So, point-by-point, I’m going to take this through the steps of logic. I just ask that you read with an open mind and try to understand what I’m arguing for here. Follow along…
1. There is a game going on between Nicodemus and Harry in regards to the truce between them. If Nicodemus can get Harry to break the truce first, Nick gets to kill Harry without consequence and gets a replacement Winter Knight to get through the Gate of Ice. If Harry can get Nicodemus to break the truce first, Mab no longer owes Nicodemus a Winter Knight for this task and Harry is free. If neither can get the other to break the truce, then presumably they go to the end and duke it out in Chicago.
2. Nicodemus knows that Harry doesn’t intend to help Nick get his goal, and Harry knows that Nicodemus will double-cross them. They both know that the other is only going through the motions.
3. Considering that everyone is trying to get the other to betray the other, the best way to get one player to betray the other is to either block them into a logical corner or to provoke them into an unthinking emotional response.
4. It is not enough for an action to just seem like it is a betrayal of trust; it must black-and-white be so. The best evidence for this is found at the first major climax of Skin Game: despite having completely thrown the death of his daughter in his face and goading him into a murderous rage, despite Nicodemus telling the Genoskwa to kill him, despite being 100% sure that Nicodemus had broken the pact, Harry still makes sure that he lets Nicodemus attack first.
5. The expressed words in agreements and commands matter a great deal. Mab demonstrates this in the very beginning by showing how she is double-crossing Nicodemus. She intends to adhere to the letter of the agreement, but is using a loophole in wording in order to allow her knight the opportunity to double-cross.
6. Nicodemus knows all this as well and plays the game much the same. The evidence to this is Nicodemus’ entrance in front of the Carpenter house. If there was any gray to the situation, he could have called Harry’s attack of Binder’s chaps, or Harry’s mostly dragging Butters to safety, treason, and killed him outright . Instead, he stands with a sword ready to kill, with the Genoskwa flanking Dresden, and acts as if Dresden was helping him all along as he sticks Harry in the logical trap of having to allow Butters to die to preserve the truce.
7. Nicodemus’ expressed goal is that Butters dies. His reasoning for it, which ties it to Harry’s obligation to give aid to Nick in his operation, is that Butters poses a security risk. These things by themselves do not yet obligate Harry to do the deed himself, but it does obligate Harry to not prevent it from happening and to provide what aid Nicodemus may require. This is the first trap.
8. At this point, Harry has determined that he and Butters have no choice but to break the contract, fight, and likely die. However, before they can actually move on this action, Karrin steps in with her ‘rocket launcher’ and threatens them, attempting to make Nicodemus reconsider his logical trap. She positions herself in close proximity to Nicodemus, draws the Sword, and attacks.
a. I acknowledge that Karrin’s actions in this create a problem in my argument – as Harry’s +1, it can be argued that her actions reflect back to Harry, and that Harry is ultimately responsible for Karrin’s act of violence and thus acted first. I will address this at the end. If you are willing to suspend disbelief for now and go along my supposition that Karrin’s actions are her own, I would appreciate it. If not, then I invite you to scroll down and then come back.
9. Karrin’s actions cannot be misconstrued as anything else – she states that she will attempt to kill Nicodemus, then swoops in and attempts to do so. She delivers the first blow, which Nicodemus defensively parries. If Karrin was under a similar oath of protection as Dresden was, this would mean that he was legally free to kill her. Furthermore, Nicodemus did say that he couldn’t guarantee Murphy’s safety. So basically, he can kill her on argument of self-defense, too. However, this does not put Nicodemus in an advantageous position against a knight wielding an on-mission Sword, so he must first turn the tables in his favor. The evidence to the sword being on-mission is the glow of holy light pouring from it – something that it doesn’t do when, for example, Dresden was cleaning it at his apartment years ago.
10. Karrin and Nicodemus clash with swords locked together, and Nicodemus begins taunting Karrin and calling doubt to her calling, bringing out the doubt and fear she must have had.
11. This is when Nicodemus springs his second trap. Before, Harry simply had an obligation simply to aid Nicodemus if necessary and to not stand in the way of Butters’ demise. Both Harry and Gen stand on the sidelines of this conflict. Nicodemus now boxes Harry in by giving him a direct command to kill Butters, which Harry must now comply with because it is directly related to the expressed purpose of protecting their endeavor.
12. With these three sentences, Nicodemus establishes two things: that Harry has a specific command, and that Harry has not yet broken the truce. Otherwise, there would be no talk of “return to headquarters” or “call off your dog.”
13. Harry intervenes at this point by grabbing Butters’ coat and appearing at first to be preparing to kill Butters. The “All right, damn it, sorry about this Butters; nothing personal” primarily serves to make it appear that Dresden is about to comply with Nick, so that the Genoskwa does not rush in and prevent Harry from unleashing force. Harry blasts Butters with force and moves him into the yard. This has the effect of protecting him from Nicodemus and the Genoskwa, who cannot attack into Michael’s yard.
14. This is the point that you are focusing on, in which you state that this act is direct defiance to Nicodemus’ order and thus breaks the truce. However, at this point nothing has yet been compromised; only the move of a chess piece. Harry does not attack Nick or Gen, and he does not impede his own ability to follow Nicodemus’ command. The direct consequence of his action is that Nicodemus and the Genoskwa now cannot do the deed. However, this was off the table from the moment that Nicodemus gave the command.
a. It is true that Harry moving Butters certainly looks like he is not going to comply. On the same token, however, Harry telling Butters “You take the big guy behind me” certainly looks like they are defying Nick, yet the moment of betrayal would occur only when the attack happens. Talk is talk.
b. Nicodemus’ expressed intent is for Butters to die, at Harry’s hands, because of the security threat that he represents. Harry can still complete this task. He can literally point his gun and pull the trigger and then he and Nick are all hunky-dory, and if he can do that, then the agreement isn’t yet broken. If Butters breaks contact with Harry, though, then he has the opportunity to contact others, which would mean then that Harry disobeyed orders by allowing Butters to go free and endanger the mission.
c. Altogether, it’s premature to say that the deal breaks here. I mean, it’s bound to break in the next few minutes unless something miraculous happens, but it doesn’t break here.
15. Here the action happens again. Nick retaliates on Karrin with a gun – which he can, of course, in self-defense because of her actions – and the Genoskwa starts bashing Harry around and squeezing his head.
a. It’s important to note that Harry shoots at the Genoskwa before the Genoskwa hits Harry. However, this is not the first time that Harry/Genoskwa violence has happened; Gen took Harry out of commission in the warehouse, requiring a doctor, and it was not a breach of the agreement with Mab. Comparatively, Harry’s gunshot is about the same strength as a needle prick to Gen and doesn’t threaten him or slow him down in the least. So much so that it’s not clear whether Harry even hits Gen or not.
16. At this point, the Genoskwa has Harry’s head in a vice, completely preventing him from talking. This is important. When Nicodemus surrenders, the third trap is not Harry’s; it is Karrin’s. Nick surrenders to Karrin, which essentially means that Karrin cannot attack Nicodemus and must accept his coin. However, Nicodemus still tells the Genoskwa to crush Harry’s skull.
a. The Genoskwa’s grip essentially shuts Harry up. He can’t speak to Karrin one way or another, which is critical here, because Harry sees what Nick is doing and tries to warn Karrin.
b. Nicodemus pays a price for using this strategy: he states that he relinquishes his claim on Butters’ blood. This essentially frees Dresden (albeit temporarily) of the responsibility of having to kill Butters. This strategy would last about as long as Nicodemus has to keep up the charade of submitting to the Knight. But it does mean that Nicodemus doubly cannot kill Dresden at this point and use it as an argument to Mab. Not only is Butters still in Dresden’s area of influence, but Nick has essentially just taken back his claim on his life.
17. And this is the point where everything can change. If Karrin calls Nick’s bluff and recovers the coin (and I don’t believe for a second that she doesn’t have a method of picking it up; if you spend the time gutting and preparing a rocket launcher to hold a katana, you’ve prepared to pick up the pocket change it generates) the entire situation flips. Nicodemus can’t kill Dresden and get another Winter Knight at this point. He’s also unarmed, facing an on-mission Knight holding the Sword of Faith, who had just taken a major leap of faith, without his coin and without his noose. He can call the coin to him in an instant, but he can’t so easily recover his sword or his noose. But he also can’t just let Karrin take the coin – Michael is inside, and I’m sure he has a holy hankie with Anduriel’s name on it.
I don’t know what happens from here. The outcomes are extremely varied, but considering the liberal amount of deus ex machina that the knights attract, I don’t think that it’s certain that Dresden and Karrin leave this situation screwed.
So, to answer your questions…
What about four witnesses? Butters, Harry, Karrin, and Michael all believe Nick is going to kill them. OK, let’s look at the four of them. Butters is right – Nick is going to kill him. Karrin as well – as soon as she started deliberately trying to kill Nicodemus, she basically made his hit list. Nicodemus is emotionally manipulating Karrin to believe that Dresden is going to die. Michael doesn’t know the situation; all he knows is that Harry has to play nice, and it sure looks like Nicodemus is going to kill them all.
But Harry knows that it’s a breach of contract.
He proves it later. You remember Nicodemus’ pitiful response to Dresden’s accusation of going back on Mab’s truce? That’s incredibly significant, but not for the reason you think.
It doesn’t matter what lame excuse Nicodemus gives at this point. The point of the matter is that Harry states that the act of commanding the Genoskwa to kill him at this point, after Harry blasted Butters over the fence, would be breaking his contract with Mab. And Nicodemus doesn’t deny this. He weasels out instead by claiming he wasn’t breaking the contract because he didn’t actually put Dresden in danger.
None of this would be necessary if Nick had the right to kill Dresden at this point. Harry and Nicodemus both know that if he WAS to have put him in danger at this point, it would be considered a breach of contract. Otherwise, the conversation would be, “Dresden, you impeded the chase, ushered the suspect off to safety, and defied my direct command. You’re lucky that Carpenter bought your freedom and my forgiveness, because otherwise you’d be dead where you stand.”
What about Karrin being Dresden’s +1 and Harry being responsible for her actions? There are a number of instances in which Team Dresden and Team Nick clash and it isn’t considered a breach of contract. The Genoskwa smashes him up a bit in the warehouse and incapacitates him. Dresden smacks around Binder’s chaps in the chase. Heck, Michael attacks the Genoskwa first in the vault, but Harry’s still concerned about letting Nicodemus attack him first.
Karrin isn’t Harry’s vassal, and it’s acknowledged that he doesn’t have complete control over her, just as Nicodemus doesn’t have complete control over his own underlings. From the wording of Harry’s condition and Mab’s acceptance in the beginning, my guess is that Karrin is being treated not as under Harry’s responsibility, but as another associate who is tasked with keeping an eye out for Dresden. After all, Nicodemus does not extend his promise of protection under the truce to her. It could be implied that such a protection goes both ways.
But what if Harry dies? Mab can't know all of this detail. Harry has Bonnie living inside his head. Mab has already said that if Harry dies, Bonnie goes free. Bonnie knows everything that Harry knows. She might not know the context that it is or what it means, but she knows it. Considering how smart Bob is with his encyclopedia level of knowledge, I think that Bonnie could be relied upon to give testimony.
But taking the coin and noose is definitely out of the question. Take that away, and Nick will get desperate. He might decide to cut his losses and take Harry's life as consolation prize first, and deal with Mab later.
While Nic can of course lie however he wants, does he ever say that the Grail is his goal, or just their target? Going after something target-adjacent needs no lying.
Also, I'm sure that Nic would indeed love to have the Grail. Not as much as other stuff, but that doesn't mean he doesn't want it. I'd be hard pressed to think of any sort of magical artifact he will just turn his nose up at, unless it has some inherent downsides. Probably doesn't want a pair of coins fighting it out in his psyche or whatever.
He might try to kill Harry that is true, but Nic would be a rapidly aging 2,000 year old man.. He would be in no position to deal with Mab... Without the noose and the coin, Nic is just an ordinary mortal like Cassius.
He might try to kill Harry that is true, but Nic would be a rapidly aging 2,000 year old man.. He would be in no position to deal with Mab... Without the noose and the coin, Nic is just an ordinary mortal like Cassius.As long as he can give the order to the genoskwa. The genoskwa wants to kill Harry so even if Nicodemus is just a human he will still do it. And Nicodemus will not age that fast the first few hours anyway.
So, what he's looking to do is break Mab's word without getting caught.Not quite. Harry is looking to corner Nicodemus into breaking his word first so that Harry can act according to Mab's will without having broken Mab's word.
When Butters I caught spying the denarians, he become a hinderence to the operation. Nick orders Harry to end him, and with Butters status as a security risk, that order is valid.Yup, absolutely spot-on. It's because Harry is commanded to aid Nicodemus in his attempt to recover the grail that obligates him to follow commands that are directly related to the success of their mission.
Re-opening the NN pathway is different. Harry can always re-open another one. There is no risk to the operation so long as Nick truly does not intend treachery.
If Nick can order Harry to do anything at all, Nick probably would have order Harry to kill himself and be done with it.
When did Mab state her intent and it is not her intent?Absolutely true. There's another type of lie that Nicodemus could be partaking in: a lie of omission. He's trapped in a position in which it's in his best interest to divulge what he's looking for, but would never be so transparent. So instead of talking about the whole collection, he just talks about one piece. It's probably the most famous piece and also the least useful; Michael even notes that he's not quite sure how Nick could use it for evil. But it's the one he presents to everyone else. The fact that he ALSO has a goal of four other divine artifacts... just never comes up.
And you are wrong. Nick don't really want the grail. If it is there and it is a freeby, he'll take it of course, but he'll throw the grail away if he can get his hands on the knife, his presume true target.
If Mab say she wants the grail, it means she wants the grail. She might want something else along the grail and she may not tell you, but the grail remains her target.
That is the difference.
Point 14 is indeed in contention. You say it is not compromise yet. In fact it is. In theory, Harry has not attack Nick or the genoskwa, but by his actions he has put Butters into a position of near absolute safety, which definitely will impede him from fulfilling Nicodemous's orders. Which is why I say that this argument would carry more weight if Butters actually die, one way or another. But no, Butters does not die. No matter what we say, even though it is still possible to kill Butters after he cross the fence, the fact of the matter is that the task is not done in the end. Nick orders to end Butters and Butters is not ended. If helping Butters before this can be swept under the rug with the word "honest incompotency", forzaring Butters across the fence is no longer "honest incompotency", it is either outright rebellion, or "true incompotency". Heck, the weak mortal doctor is right in front of you , no better than a turtle in a jar, and you can't even end him! The excuse of incompotency should has it's limits.I will agree with you that the argument of incompetence is a weak one. Dresden is deceiving Gen and Nick while moving Butters into safety from everyone but himself. However, the fact does still stand that Harry's actions do not impede his ability to kill Butters, and Harry cannot truly be accused of betraying Nick until he actually does something which damages their endeavor.
As for Murphy. Perhaps it is indeed a good idea for her to stay true to the code of the KoTC. She can do like what Michael did in the gate of blood, when Nick is trying to sacrifice dierdra without interference. Kill him and I'll smite you down. Yes, she can do that, and this is precisely her mistake.Hoo boy. I'd love to see that battle.
But taking the coin and noose is definitely out of the question. Take that away, and Nick will get desperate. He might decide to cut his losses and take Harry's life as consolation prize first, and deal with Mab later.
He might try to kill Harry that is true, but Nic would be a rapidly aging 2,000 year old man.. He would be in no position to deal with Mab... Without the noose and the coin, Nic is just an ordinary mortal like Cassius.It was two years between Death Masks and Dead Beat, which took Snakeboy from being a decently young-looking chap to being Liverspots. Cassius is also considerably old. Nick might age rapidly, but I doubt he would age that rapidly as to affect the battle.
It is about Nicodemus lying, not Mab lying. Mab won't. Nicodemus is not bound to tell the truth the way Mab is so it makes no sense to expect him to follow rules the way Mab does.....Yea... and i'm pointing out he no more lied than she who cannot lie so?
The fae are unique in that respect and nobody in the books applies those rules to other creatures like vampires or denarian hosts. Nobody expects Nicodemus to tell the truth either.So basically your trying to tell me he lies because he can lie as proof that he lies? ??? None of that proves Nic ever lied any more than Mab did, Whom obviously did not.
If he says Tessa is after the grail, that that is her beef, that is an obvious lie. We know what her beef was, what she was after. She was not interested in that cup at all, she tried to prevent the crew from Even starting the whole thing.
Saying that you want the grail when in truth you want something is a freaking blatant lie. A fae may to hide their intentions, but a fae can never say that they want something while in truth they want another thing. A fae might confuse you by answering a question with a question, or by simply being silent, but outright saying that they want one thing while in truth they want another thing is beyond their capabilities unless they are infected.Did he take the grail? Yes. Did he therefor want the grail as part of the package deal of betraying them when he goal was in sight? Probably so. Does any of that effect if he wants the Blade MORE? No. If I go to BK saying when I leave I want a whopper and when I get there I get fries because I actually wanted fries on the whopper more than the whopper I didn't lie. He omitted that he wanted the Knife more so, he didn't lie about wanting the cup, he did indeed take it and took a shot from Dresden rather than risk it's demise. So he rather DID want the cup and what it could do.
Not quite. Harry is looking to corner Nicodemus into breaking his word first so that Harry can act according to Mab's will without having broken Mab's word.
Yup, absolutely spot-on. It's because Harry is commanded to aid Nicodemus in his attempt to recover the grail that obligates him to follow commands that are directly related to the success of their mission.
Absolutely true. There's another type of lie that Nicodemus could be partaking in: a lie of omission. He's trapped in a position in which it's in his best interest to divulge what he's looking for, but would never be so transparent. So instead of talking about the whole collection, he just talks about one piece. It's probably the most famous piece and also the least useful; Michael even notes that he's not quite sure how Nick could use it for evil. But it's the one he presents to everyone else. The fact that he ALSO has a goal of four other divine artifacts... just never comes up.
The funny thing is, his omission of his true target is exactly what allows Dresden to hide what he's really after. Because Nick expressed that everyone was welcome to any other items in the vault if they struck his fancy, and that his objective was a cup, that made the other four items up for grabs in Mab's eye.
As for Mab, the closest she ever came to expressing her true intention in plain words was in stating that she expected Dresden to be himself, and that she expected far superior treachery from him. Dresden has to figure out for himself exactly her intentions. 'Cause she's Fae and is allergic to speaking the straight truth.
I will agree with you that the argument of incompetence is a weak one. Dresden is deceiving Gen and Nick while moving Butters into safety from everyone but himself. However, the fact does still stand that Harry's actions do not impede his ability to kill Butters, and Harry cannot truly be accused of betraying Nick until he actually does something which damages their endeavor.
I do see your point of Quid Pro Quo. If I understand you properly, you're stating that Dresden's pursuit of Butters could clearly be seen as attempting to sabotage his capture and a breach of contract. And while Harry's bashing of Binder's gents could be explained by bad luck and incompetence, his rushing Butters over to the Carpenters' yard really could not. I'm unsure if the fact that Nicodemus chose to allow this action in order to trap the sword has any weight in this situation. After all, my argument still stands when Harry accuses Nick of breaking Mab's agreement - if the agreement was broken at that point, during the chase, then Nick doesn't have to defend telling Gen to kill Harry. He can just say, "You betrayed me when you were pulling the doctor I ordered dead to safety. I was in my rights to kill you, Dresden."
I'll have to think about that one. Hm.Hoo boy. I'd love to see that battle.It was two years between Death Masks and Dead Beat, which took Snakeboy from being a decently young-looking chap to being Liverspots. Cassius is also considerably old. Nick might age rapidly, but I doubt he would age that rapidly as to affect the battle.
Did he take the grail? Yes. Did he therefor want the grail as part of the package deal of betraying them when he goal was in sight? Probably so. Does any of that effect if he wants the Blade MORE? No. If I go to BK saying when I leave I want a whopper and when I get there I get fries because I actually wanted fries on the whopper more than the whopper I didn't lie. He omitted that he wanted the Knife more so, he didn't lie about wanting the cup, he did indeed take it and took a shot from Dresden rather than risk it's demise. So he rather DID want the cup and what it could do.
By the same vein sending your minion to help secure an object when your intent is that they 'skin them alive' would be a blatant lie. But it is not... I'm not a lawyer, but I can give queen Mab herself a run for her money ;)
....Yea... and i'm pointing out he no more lied than she who cannot lie so?I am proving he can lie by pointing to two lies and by pointing to the general understanding by everyone who knows something about him that he does.
So basically your trying to tell me he lies because he can lie as proof that he lies? ??? None of that proves Nic ever lied any more than Mab did, Whom obviously did not.
He use the grail as a shield, that should tell you how much he truly wants the cup.He used the grail as a shield when he thought the Holy Knight wouldn't risk it's destruction. When Harry proves he doesn't care he ceases this tactic to avoid damage to the cup. The fact he takes a blow for the cup far outweighs a situation where he knows the knights faith will not let him do such a 'crime', or heresy I guess from Michaels perspective. Lol, it was in even less danger than Harry was from the Genoska.
I am proving he can lie by pointing to two lies and by pointing to the general understanding by everyone who knows something about him that he does.He's two faced, he's deceptive, but I've not seen an lie yet..
The lie about tessa's intentions is even more clear. Tessa had no interest in the grail at all because she tried to stop Nicodemus too early for that. She was interested in saving Deirdre from her father.and whose to say she doesn't want it for herself? She did try and actually take Harvey for herself in fact
"...You have something I want. I want you to give it to me."SO she may have had a plan of her own if she had gotten to the resources first. She certainly wanted to stop Nic from sacrificing their daughter. But that's not all she wanted, or she would have been more pissed at Nic in the afterwards instead of training her grief upon Michaels family. She accepted what happened, she just didn't want it to happen like that. I'll admit, this is as close as you've actually pointed out to an affirmative lie, but too much shows she wanted the end goals if not the process that got them. She does want it for herself, and in her plan Deidre wasn't the sacrifice apparently.
Nicodemus is a known liar. There is some other quote in the books I can not find at the moment when Michael tells it sometimes takes years to disentangle truth from lies in what the denarians say. Nobody in the books in their right mind trusts anything they say.Citing perspectives of his enemies doesn't really show he readily lied...
My originall point is that using what Nicodemus says as a proof for anything when he has clearly something to gain by lying and when it is difficult to check is folly.Indeed, it is difficult to prove he lied outright.
Expecting him to be bound by the same rules as the fae doesn't work either.Never said he was, said he followed such regulations intentionally. I could cite various reasons to do so, giving strength to the father of lies by lying gives strength to a rival being the simplest one.. saying he lies because others tell you when you don't actually see him break faith anywhere doesn't work.
He's two faced, he's deceptive, but I've not seen an lie yet..Which is incompatible with getting the grail. She did not have the means and brains to organise the raid herself so her only option to get the grail was ambushing the party when they got out, sacrificing her daughter.
and whose to say she doesn't want it for herself? She did try and actually take Harvey for herself in fact SO she may have had a plan of her own if she had gotten to the resources first. She certainly wanted to stop Nic from sacrificing their daughter.
But that's not all she wanted, or she would have been more pissed at Nic in the afterwards instead of training her grief upon Michaels family.She is a denarian host. Before lying to everybody else they lie to themselves. Of course she trained her grief on Michaels family. It is because of the influence of the fallen.
She accepted what happened, she just didn't want it to happen like that. I'll admit, this is as close as you've actually pointed out to an affirmative lie, but too much shows she wanted the end goals if not the process that got them. She does want it for herself, and in her plan Deidre wasn't the sacrifice apparently.Citing perspectives of his enemies doesn't really show he readily lied...Certainly if one of them is kringle who really can not lie himself, that should be enough evidence. The rest is bonus.
Indeed, it is difficult to prove he lied outright.I just did it two times in one book. And it is clear the knights did it as well, it just took time
Which is incompatible with getting the grail. She did not have the means and brains to organise the raid herself so her only option to get the grail was ambushing the party when they got out, sacrificing her daughter.Don't turn this into a subjective he thinks she thinks tangent line that far off center please. Suffice it to say since she apparently held the same regard for her daughter as Deidre did Nic she could have convinced Deidre to take the grail for herself with her as the sacrifice. Taking the grail for her own purposes.
Even if she aqquired Harvey and not just killed him what was far more likely she would not be able to pass and she knew it. It was not important because everything points to her not interested in the grail. She is a denarian host. Before lying to everybody else they lie to themselves. Of course she trained her grief on Michaels family. It is because of the influence of the fallen.And this proves Nic lied how?
They are misled by the fallen all the time. Nicodemus needed a necromancer in stead of killing his daughter. He could at least have tried a near dead experience in stead of a full one. The fallen wanted him to kill his daughter.Certainly if one of them is kringle who really can not lie himself, that should be enough evidence. The rest is bonus.??? what?
And she tried to stop him. Stop him in ways that made it impossible for her to retrieve the grail. Clearly according to her the grail could rot wherever it was if she could keep her daughter... again, what?
And there was another lie in that lie too. He said Tessa wanted the same thing as he did.... uh, well,
She want's it for herself of courseThat's all he said, which isn't actually saying that's the only or main reasoning for what she's doing. If she know's why Nic wants it greedy denarian probably does want it for herself.
Mab would not be able to say all those things. If she had used deception she would have worded it differently.I'm not sure i'm willing to consider you an expert witness on if Mab could say it that way or how precisely she would word it. Suffice it to say she no more lied in the pretext of the deal than he did, and if she would be willing to accept how Nic broke the sword then neither did he there.
I just did it two times in one book. And it is clear the knights did it as well, it just took timeNo you didn't, I'm not really sure what your 2nd example even is supposed to be? An again what the knights did or did not prove hasn't been shown as anything more than an ad libbed factoid, as we know for a fact Nic destroys all the church documents every so often anyway. So they wouldn't know a lot. However, I believe what he actually said is it takes years to catch the fallen in a lie, not Nic or even the hosts in particular.
Don't turn this into a subjective he thinks she thinks tangent line that far off center please. Suffice it to say since she apparently held the same regard for her daughter as Deidre did Nic she could have convinced Deidre to take the grail for herself with her as the sacrifice. Taking the grail for her own purposes.Tessa sacrificing herself??? That is really more likely than Nic just lying? And if Nic knew Tessa was prepaired to sacrifice herself he would jump to it.
And this proves Nic lied how?No it explained why Tessa shifted the blame to Michael, it is easier and the fallen wanted it. Whatever they think those two are not really their own boss.
one possibility is that Nicodemus just lied. The other possibility is that Tessa with a few ghouls wanted to take over Nicodemus operation, sacrifice herself in stead of her daughter and then somehow after her dead give the grail to her daughter without Nicodemus getting it from her. That means Tessa has to kill Nicodemus as well?
??? what?
.. again, what?
... uh, well, That's all he said, which isn't actually saying that's the only or main reasoning for what she's doing. If she know's why Nic wants it greedy denarian probably does want it for herself.Also Nicodemus did not really want it, he wanted the dagger. Which was proven by the fact that he stated that he wanted it as agreed upon by Kringle and Harry.
I'm not sure i'm willing to consider you an expert witness on if Mab could say it that way or how precisely she would word it.Watch when she answers Harry in small favor about her motives. Compare that with Nicodemus in skin game.
Suffice it to say she no more lied in the pretext of the deal than he did, and if she would be willing to accept how Nic broke the sword then neither did he there.Mab is not really interested in the swords, the white god can handle his own stuff.
No you didn't, I'm not really sure what your 2nd example even is supposed to be? An again what the knights did or did not prove hasn't been shown as anything more than an ad libbed factoid, as we know for a fact Nic destroys all the church documents every so often anyway. So they wouldn't know a lot. However, I believe what he actually said is it takes years to catch the fallen in a lie, not Nic or even the hosts in particular.
True, but Harry might still die. Saving a life is more important than punishing the evildoers. You might hurt Nick by taking the coin, but chances are good you'll suffer casualties as well. Following the code of the knights, not taking the coin should be the right choice.
It's just as much a ruse to break a sword as it is Harry trying to help Nic by giving chase to Butters.
Which is to say not at all.
I mean, if you're basing this whole thing on what Nic says, why do you constantly ignore the first part of his statement where he explicitly compares what he did with what Harry did as an explanation for why he won't get eviscerated by Mab for it?
What matters to Karrin is this. If Karrin does not appear and wield fid, at that point, thus depriving Nick from his true target, would Nicodemous just sigh in regret and let Harry go free?At the point where Karrin appears with Fid, Harry and Butters have basically given up on being able to escape Nicodemus' trap and have decided to fight them. Everyone's preparing for a fight, and the second Dresden strikes, they all die. If Karrin doesn't show up with Fid, then Nick gets personal revenge and Mab is obligated to replace him with a servant of equal competence - which she has. Technically, Mab could offer Lea's services, and I think that Lea would have a pretty easy chance of getting through the gate of ice.
Obviously not. If murphy does not wield fid and thus granting Nick what he wants, he'll likely take out his fury on Harry. This is why I mention that fid's breaking becomes Harry's salvation. Either Nick's target is truly Harry, and Murphy wielding fid distracted him from his true target, or it gaves Nick his real target and allow Harry to escape calamity.
I think he had a backup plan for Harry. Hannah with Lasciels help could handle a gate and the Genoskwa could handle the ice door thing.
How do you think the Genoskwa would have handled the Gate of Ice?He did it reasonably well when wounded after his confrontation with Grey. He got killed because Harry added to his difficulties.
But you have to remember that he'd already seen Harry do it. On the way in, do you think the Genoskwa would have studied it first, or just figured it can't be that tough and bulled his way in, and got crushed by a couple of house sized boulders?The Genoskwa is many things but not stupid.
Tessa sacrificing herself??? That is really more likely than Nic just lying? And if Nic knew Tessa was prepaired to sacrifice herself he would jump to it.For her Daughter, not for him.
No it explained why Tessa shifted the blame to Michael, it is easier and the fallen wanted it.Which doesn't address the fact she accepted what happened because she wanted the end result. You can't say she's suddenly that delusional from earlier actively trying to save her daughter. It's this tangent of other opinions that won't really prove anything btw. it's not on focus.
Whatever they think those two are not really their own boss.one possibility is that Nicodemus just lied. The other possibility is that Tessa with a few ghouls wanted to take over Nicodemus operation, sacrifice herself in stead of her daughter and then somehow after her dead give the grail to her daughter without Nicodemus getting it from her. That means Tessa has to kill Nicodemus as well?Blah? why is this even a thing when wanting it for yourself and willing to sacrifice for your daughter isn't the same as willing to help your rival husband or die on his terms. If your not gonna stick to at least 1st gen theorizing, which is to say the first leap in logic from a fact, i'm going to stop keeping to it as well. Have you SEEN my in depth theories!? Going off of sheer opinionated tangentals we'll never solve for x. I'll play the infinite game theory against you if I must.
Because otherwise she could just walk in and tell nicodemus she wanted to die in her daughters place.But in order to prove he's lying all you have to do is line up one complete action with one completely different set of statements. I gave you the easy job here. Considering you know, how many people claim he's a liar and all, you'd think something just concrete would come up with a 'blatant' liar, Except we're still here...
It is difficult to prove that Nicodemus lied if one is prepared to take virtual impossible scenarios as more likely than Nicodemus just lying.
Because even if the scenario was true the chance that Nicodemus believed it was certainly zero.aye aye aye.... Which says nothing of the fact he does want the cup. He want's all the pieces, the dagger was just most important. Going back to my bk reference, not giving me the fires for my burger would not invalidate the burger itself.
Also Nicodemus did not really want it, he wanted the dagger. Which was proven by the fact that he stated that he wanted it as agreed upon by Kringle and Harry.
Watch when she answers Harry in small favor about her motives. Compare that with Nicodemus in skin game.If you insist on going off in tangents, explain them so their understandable by the context of the post please. This doesn't even show your logic it just says read to passages and i'll know it. Read 16 book, 100's of written woj's an video's and you'll get where i'm coming from. I don't really have to explain anything to anyone, cause it's all there for them to pick up themselves right? cool, that just won every disagreement i'll ever have on here :)
Mab is not really interested in the swords, the white god can handle his own stuff.Non Germaine to the point being made.
And if Harry and Nicodemus agree on what happened then she has nothing to say about it, whether she believes it or not.It wasn't agreed upon, and Harry monolgues what i'm talking about knowing she won't be able to pin anything on Nic untoward there based on his Lawyering of his intention. Which goes to show the lawyering matters far more then the actual intention. The intention was either or most likely.
At the point where Karrin appears with Fid, Harry and Butters have basically given up on being able to escape Nicodemus' trap and have decided to fight them. Everyone's preparing for a fight, and the second Dresden strikes, they all die. If Karrin doesn't show up with Fid, then Nick gets personal revenge and Mab is obligated to replace him with a servant of equal competence - which she has. Technically, Mab could offer Lea's services, and I think that Lea would have a pretty easy chance of getting through the gate of ice.
Also, I’ve been thinking more about the ‘pro forma quid pro quo’, and I don’t believe that it signifies that both Harry and Nicodemus broke the pact, and so therefore they cancel each other out. Yes, quid pro quo does signify that one thing is being exchanged for another, but pro forma is a statement that something is done as a matter of form, or as an estimate.
On a slightly different topic, I’ve been thinking of the Genoskwa’s actions during this fight. Nicodemus commands Gen to kill Harry and to make it hurt. And Gen… just doesn’t take the opportunity. Yes, it can be argued that maybe Gen was just enjoying torturing Harry too much. But he’s made it perfectly clear that he would enjoy nothing more but killing him. Why doesn’t Gen kill Harry when ordered to?
It’s clear that whatever thing that Nicodemus is attempting to achieve, that this heist is deadly critical to achieving that goal. He would not sacrifice his daughter, the person that he loves and trusts more than anything in the world, in order to just get a new supernatural artifact that he just found out about. If it’s critical enough to kill Deidre over, then I don’t think that there’s a chance – not a chance in hell – that Nicodemus would knowingly do anything that would rob him of the person he needs to get through the gate of ice.Exactly, all part of an elaborate ruse to get a Sword broken..
Which means that Nicodemus wouldn’t put anything up to chance. I don’t believe that he would chance killing Dresden unless it was completely obvious that he had betrayed him, simply because he doesn’t know for sure if the Queen of Tricksey Faeries has eyes on the situation or not. That’s not something that Nicodemus would risk on a job so critical. And by the same token, I don’t believe that he would give the command for the Genoskwa to kill Dresden unless he was absolutely certain that he would not. Because if there’s any ambiguity about Dresden’s death, then the job is off.
So when the Genoskwa does not kill Harry, even though given ample time to and commanded to do so, this strikes me as very conspicuou
I think it was more than likely that Nicodemus had a conversation with all of his hidden Denarians – that due to the circumstance of the bargain with Mab, none of them were allowed to kill him. Period. That makes the most sense; if Dresden is to die, Nicodemus would want to be in control so that he could not accidently lose the retainer from Winter that he was owed.
Plus, the other thing is that Harry did the ice run while running closer and closer to sub-antarctic temperatures. It's one thing to parkour! across a field full of monster rocks the size of buildings smashing everything in its wake. Quite another to do it while your body is convulsing with cold. On the return trip, they're running away from absolute zero.The Genoskwa did most of the parcours while trying to kill Harry and he was heavily wounded and I do not think the parcours was that much easier from the other side.
According to general cryptozoology, I don't think that Gen would handle that very well going th other way. Maybe if he was a Yeti, but there's a difference between these cryptids.
If Murphy wasn't there with the sword, what would have happened is that Butters and Harry would have died, and Nic would have gone back and demanded a new minion, since the first one broke Mab's word, trying to help someone with vital intelligence that undermines the op escape. Where he could do things like warn the bank they're trying to break into.
As for Nic's goal to break a sword, no shit he wants to do that. But unless you want to argue that the whole point of both Small Favor and Death Masks was not actually to get a coin in the Archive, or just cause a bunch of death to change people's mindset to something more nihilistic, but actually somehow break a sword, then maybe he can do something with another goal in mind. Like, say, kill the guy who knows how to kill him, and prevent information that can damage his mission from getting out.
Because Harry's brain-matter isn't decorating the sidewalk outside of the Carpenter residence? If he'd wanted to kill him, he'd have done it as soon as he was finished with Murphy.So nicodemus had a good reason not to. No reason to believe it was the reason he stated.
No, I am going with Nic's stated mission since Small Favor, the reason Harry first dangled Fid in the first place to trade for Ivy and Marcone. The whole reason Harry dangled the Sword, he knew Nic wanted it to unmake it.. Duh... Denarians want to break Holy Swords, they and the Knights that wield them are their enemy.. What is the one thing that strikes more terror in a Nicklehead than anything else? A Holy Sword shining brightly in the hands of a Knight... Nic isn't afraid of Michael without his Sword, but put Am in his hands and Nic shits his pants..
So Nic isn't lying he is bragging on how clever he was setting up Murphy and Harry with the unwitting aid of Butters to accomplish his goal.. He lies about a lot of things true, but not about this, breaking Swords is his goal, planning to accomplish that is his business, and this time out he won, if only for a little while.. At that point in time, Fid was shattered on the sidewalk, useless..
Your mistake is thinking since Nic lies, everything he says is a lie, however it is a lot more complicated than that...
So nicodemus had a good reason not to. No reason to believe it was the reason he stated.
Because Harry's brain-matter isn't decorating the sidewalk outside of the Carpenter residence? If he'd wanted to kill him, he'd have done it as soon as he was finished with Murphy.
He had reasons to keep Harry alive- ergo, he wasn't going to kill him, ergo he was bluffing Murphy to get her to break Fid.
The exact reasons for keeping Harry alive aren't exactly relevant to that chain of logic.
Nick is an asshole, a liar, and a murderous, murdering, murderer. Obviously we need to analyze his action carefully- he's not the sort you trust as far as you can kick after all.
But I genuinely don't think he intended to kill Harry then. If for no other reason then the fact that it's 99% guaranteed that Mab is watching over his shoulder looking for an excuse to shank him right now, and so he wants to wait until he's somewhere she can't intervene (Hades)
Nicodemous himself might want to argue otherwise, but at the end of the day the guy iss till just a human. Heck, even a supreme spiritual being with near absolute purpose, like Mab, sometimes goes astray under certain stimulation, as we seen during book 14.That too...
The guy just manage to destroy fid, permanently so he presumes. One of his eternal foe is just vanquished, pardon him some time to gloat and celebrate. Nick probably can't help himself.
By the time he pull himself toghether and was about to actually kill Harry, Michael come up and offer him a tastier bait.
He had reasons to keep Harry alive- ergo, he wasn't going to kill him, ergo he was bluffing Murphy to get her to break Fid.We know that Nicodemus wants to kill Harry so his reasons not to are always context sensitive and because so it is extremely important to know those reasons because context can change quite rapidly.
The exact reasons for keeping Harry alive aren't exactly relevant to that chain of logic.
Nick is an asshole, a liar, and a murderous, murdering, murderer. Obviously we need to analyze his action carefully- he's not the sort you trust as far as you can kick after all.It all depends on the situation. Harry and Butters actions freed him of one concern, Mab's retaliation. Karen offerd him a more tempting opportunity but without Karens intervention Nicodemus had to do something because he could not let Harry get away with it either.
But I genuinely don't think he intended to kill Harry then. If for no other reason then the fact that it's 99% guaranteed that Mab is watching over his shoulder looking for an excuse to shank him right now, and so he wants to wait until he's somewhere she can't intervene (Hades)
Mira, are you seriously arguing that the entire chase was just to get Murphy to break the Sword?
That Nicodemus would not have chased or wanted Butters dead if Murphy didn't have the Sword?
Is that what you're saying? Because that makes no sense.
If Nic is as all knowing as he's supposed to be, he should know that Fid was never truly broken. Bianca et al. were going to kill an innocent to unmake the sword, after Harry did the same thing Murphy did. Nic just smashed the blade. All he did was take it out of commission until such time as a new blade can be reforged, like has been done several times over with two of the three.
Basically, the miracle of faith that Butters did was getting it to work without the metal, not ununmaking it.
It make sense, if Harry is an idiot who has absolutely no understanding about how fae deals work, because if Butters is not truly in danger, Harry is doing all those things, risking breaking the deal, for nothing. He could just sit back and Butters won't die at all.
Heck, even Uriel is fooled. The archangel risk his grace for nothing. Uriel could just told Michael that Nick can't kill Harry. Surely such a simple thing is no worse then bequeathing his grace entirely. In fact, Harry can tell Michael this truth, so does Butters and Bob. But all of them keep quiet, so it means all of them are ignorant.Don't over work it, sure Nic can kill Harry, but he needed the mission run first, then he could kill him... Timing is everything, and Nic did try to kill him, Michael and his little dog too once the mission was complete.
I don't need to mention Murphy, because clearly in the eyes of some people, Murphy's judgements and words cannot be trusted.
It is truly only by the grace of TWG and lady fortuna that this bunch of idiots can defeat Nicodemous in his own game and save the day. Mab must be insane to allow a knight who is so ignorant on the mechanics of fae deals to cross wits with Nicodemous, so Mab is an idiot too.She might be insane, for that matter she frequently points out to Harry how ignorant he is on the finer points of Fae deals.. Harry had to admit to it as well after the Sword was broken and he finally worked out how Nic set everything up and waltzed though the loop holes so the deal wasn't violated. And it was by the grace of the Almighty and an archangel that the idiots did defeat Nic..
Everyone is a fool, only Nick is clever. He knows everything. He predicted everything with near pin point accuracy. He need to tell Harry right to his face that it is all a ploy, before Harry could even begin to understand.Nic is clever, and in the case of what happened in front of Michael's house, he enjoyed rubbing Harry's nose in it, very smug indeed. Even Harry had to admit Nic was very clever in this action.. But Nic blows it as well, oh he ended up with the Grail, but Harry made out like a bandit..
Harry's victory over Nicodemous might as well be deus ex machina.
That very well could be what ended up happening.. Think about it, until he became a Holy Knight Butters is really nothing to Nic, but Nic knows he means something to Harry... Yeah, he could have gone ahead and killed Harry for refusing to kill Butters, but that would mess up his deal with Mab.. Nic's main goal was the contents of the vault, breaking the Sword was a bonus.. And yes, Harry is an idiot about how the Fae work a deal even if he should know better by now... He cannot hold a candle to Mab in slippery critical thinking..Except for the whole thing about Butters spying on Nicodemus's meeting and thus being a security risk for the extremely sensitive heist that Nicodemus is planning.
Mira, I agree with huangjimmy, Mr. Death, and the rest in regards to this theory you've posed, that Nicodemus wouldn't have ordered Butters' death and attempted to trap Dresden unless he thought that the swords were in play. That's completely out of character. Nicodemus has already shown that he'll go to extraordinary lengths for personal vengeance, and he's also shown that he doesn't think much about killing people - it's just a task to be done. Butters would have been a threat to the heist; he might not like Marcone, but I'm sure he would alert Marcone's people if it meant stopping Nicodemus Archleone. And to be honest, I'm slightly miffed that you hijacked my argument and used it to further yours, which I don't agree with; it's kind of made my arguments to the rest fall unanswered.
I thought I was underscoring your arguments, because you did a very good job of proving my points...Just slightly miffed. Minimiffed. I just kinda felt like everyone lumped us up together, and the points you made weren't the ones I had intended. Not really your fault.
Nic wouldn't have jeopardized deliberately his bargain with Mab by ordering Harry to do something he knew he'd find a way not to do, i.e. killing of Butters.Ah, but this is exactly what he would do. By giving Harry a command that is integral to their heist, yet he knows Dresden absolutely will not do, Nicodemus is cornering Harry into having to choose whether to let Butters die or betray Mab. He's out-maneuvering Harry.
If Harry couldn't do it, Murphy would have been able to talk some sense into him so the mission wouldn't have been blown, so that is a bogus argument..Not so. Simply getting his agreement to talk couldn't be considered as successful of a resolution as killing him; dead men don't speak, after all. It's possible that Dresden could have convinced Nicodemus to either let him cast his sleep spell on Butters to make him unconscious for the duration of the heist, or to take him prisoner surrounded by Nick's goon squad, but I doubt he would accept those as an alternate plan. Harry didn't seem to think that it was worth trying.
We have to take Nic at his word, he set the events in front of Michael's house up to take out a Sword because he had an opening to do so by Murphy's feelings about the mission of the Knights and her sneaking one along with her..We have to talk here about what is probable and what is improbable.
I am willing to bet as well, that Mab would have found a way for Butters to remain safe, his death would affect Harry, which would in turn screw up what she was trying to do...Wait, Mab? Queen of Air and Darkness, lower her dignity enough to rescue a mortal from the consequences of his own actions? Just in order to make her Knight feel better? I sincerely doubt that she would even see the point in this. Mopiness does not become the Winter Knight.
Mira, I agree with huangjimmy, Mr. Death, and the rest in regards to this theory you've posed, that Nicodemus wouldn't have ordered Butters' death and attempted to trap Dresden unless he thought that the swords were in play. That's completely out of character. Nicodemus has already shown that he'll go to extraordinary lengths for personal vengeance, and he's also shown that he doesn't think much about killing people - it's just a task to be done. Butters would have been a threat to the heist; he might not like Marcone, but I'm sure he would alert Marcone's people if it meant stopping Nicodemus Archleone. And to be honest, I'm slightly miffed that you hijacked my argument and used it to further yours, which I don't agree with; it's kind of made my arguments to the rest fall unanswered.
Jimmy: I hear what you're saying about Nicodemus' "trustworthiness". I'd like to state again that Nicodemus is a person who lies excellently when he feels the necessity to and tells the truth when he doesn't. He has no shame of his actions, and quite frankly talks about himself, his motivations, and his beliefs without any sort of obfuscation. However, I don't take his words here as truth because he's such a trustworthy boy scout; I take his words as truth because to actually have the Genoskwa kill Harry at this point would mean losing a critical part of his team, with no replacement. And if this job is so essential to his long-term goals as to kill his daughter and lover over, then he would not throw it away just to stick the knife in Harry a day early.
Mr. Death: You hadn't replied to my assertion before that on Harry's death, a freed Bonnie could also give testimony on the pure facts of what had occurred. She knows everything that Harry knows, would be freed upon his death, and Mab is aware of her. Even though she doesn't understand the context of the knowledge she has ("Pancakes are inanimate!!") she always could report accurately all the sounds of the past fifteen minutes, for example.
Furthermore, I want to also mention that there's other evidence that there would be witnesses to this exchange. The reason Harry closes the gate back to Marcone's vault right before he tackles the Gate of Ice is because he's fairly certain that Nicodemus would try some sort of underhanded assault deep in Hades' realm, where Mab was unlikely to have witnesses. Look at this in the reverse: If Harry was in more danger because there would not be witnesses here, then there must be a measure of safety in the real world because there could be witnesses. And again, I don't think that Nicodemus would be so reckless to jeopardize his entire enterprise on the chance that Mab doesn't have some way of verifying whether or not he's being treacherous, just to kill Harry a day ahead of time. If this job is important enough to kill Deidre for, it's important enough to not make stupid risks for personal vengeance.
Mr. Death: You hadn't replied to my assertion before that on Harry's death, a freed Bonnie could also give testimony on the pure facts of what had occurred. She knows everything that Harry knows, would be freed upon his death, and Mab is aware of her. Even though she doesn't understand the context of the knowledge she has ("Pancakes are inanimate!!") she always could report accurately all the sounds of the past fifteen minutes, for example.Who says that Bonnie becomes free if Harry dies?
Wait, Mab? Queen of Air and Darkness, lower her dignity enough to rescue a mortal from the consequences of his own actions? Just in order to make her Knight feel better? I sincerely doubt that she would even see the point in this. Mopiness does not become the Winter Knight.
“Sure,” I said. “See, the way I figure it, after I get you through this gate, I’ve got exactly zero utility to you people. It would be a great time for you to stick a knife in my back.”So Harry says that if Mab can't directly observe and prove otherwise, that she would have to take Nick's word and take it up with Hades. Now, we know that would never happen due to their back-room dealings, but this illustrates the deal.
“That wasn’t the plan,” Nicodemus said.
“Yeah, you’re such a Boy Scout, Nick,” I said, “with the best of intentions. But for the sake of argument, let’s say you weren’t. Let’s say you were a treacherous bastard who would enjoy seeing me dead. Let’s say you realized that here, in the most secure portion of the Underworld, the demesne of a major Power, there’d be no way for Mab to directly observe what you do. Let’s say your plan all along was to kill me and leave me here in the Underworld, maybe even try to pin the whole thing on me so that you don’t have to worry about the client, later—you could just let him tangle with Mab, sit back on your evil ass, and laugh yourself sick over it.”
The actions and words of Harry, Murphy, Butters, Bob, Michael and Uriel indicated that: yes, Harry has indeed broken the deal. So much so that he need to accept almost being killed by Nicodemous as the"Quid pro Quo" for his own transgressions. Unless all of them are idiots and only Nick understand the rules of the game, then Harry indeed broken the deal.I argued against your assertion about Harry, Karrin, Butters, and Michael. I even addressed the "pro forma quid pro quo" quip that you cling to as complete evidence . To the best of my knowledge, you never responded to these, but are still holding them as reliable references. Is there some sort of hidden evidence that you have which you've never shared, or are you just declining to listen to my argument or declining to respond to it?
Gooseflesh erupted along my arms. She was talking about Maggie. My daughter.
“She’s out of this,” I said in a whisper. “She’s protected.”
“Not from this,” Mab said, her tone remote. “Not from a being created of your own essence, just as she is. Your death will bring a deadly creature into the world, my Knight—one who knows all that you know of your allies. Lovers. Family.”
Huangjimmy: totally agree with your analysis on the results of what would happen if Harry breaks the deal.
I don't, though, agree with your assessment on Harry closing the door to Chicago being about Mab not being able to observe what happens. Mostly because Harry argues it.So Harry says that if Mab can't directly observe and prove otherwise, that she would have to take Nick's word and take it up with Hades. Now, we know that would never happen due to their back-room dealings, but this illustrates the deal.
This means also that Mab must be keeping tabs on what happens elsewhere, either personally or through a trusted servant. She's got a few of those.
I argued against your assertion about Harry, Karrin, Butters, and Michael. I even addressed the "pro forma quid pro quo" quip that you cling to as complete evidence . To the best of my knowledge, you never responded to these, but are still holding them as reliable references. Is there some sort of hidden evidence that you have which you've never shared, or are you just declining to listen to my argument or declining to respond to it?
With that being said, who's left? Uriel? Bob? Bob isn't even in the scene at this point - he was last playing with Binder's chaps while being a lion, and we don't see him again until he follows Butters as he drives Karrin to the hospital. As for Uriel, Michael has people to save - Karrin, for one. Harry, too - either Harry's going to attack Nick in order to save Karrin, or Nick is going to command him to kill Butters again. Either way, Harry is far from in the clear at this point. Taking Michael's offer means that he completely agrees to let all three of them go.
Besides, in Ghost Story, Uriel stated that due to his duty of protecting freedom of choice, he is only given permission to correct a lie from the enemy in specific cases - that's what made his seven words to Dresden in the bottom of Demonreach so significant. How do you expect Uriel to act if Nicodemus is deceiving Michael? I mean, honestly. As Uriel can't correct a lie, what else could he really say other than "You don't need to do this; you've done enough." ?
You keep pointing to these people and saying, "Look, you're wrong - this is no deception; Nicodemus is really trying to kill them all because they all think they're going to be killed!! There's no way they could be deceived!" When we're talking about a scenario in which I'm arguing that Nicodemus is deceiving everyone into believing he's going to kill Harry, and keeping the one person familiar enough with Mab's judgement and fae law shut up,, an argument like the one you're posing is a non sequitur. You need something more substantial than "They all believe it!" when my claim is "They're being deceived."
I've given you ample evidence for why each would be acting the way that they do in this scene if there is a ploy going on. I've given you evidence for each individual character, plus I've given you the evidence that the Genoskwa provided, which covers the situation entirely. I've given you evidence for why Nicodemus would not want to risk Dresden's death unless he was absolutely, 100% positive that Harry was treacherous. You need to provide something more to back up your claim. And by the way - the argument you keep mocking, stating about "we should trust Nick's words because he said so" is your strawman argument, not mine. It's also, to the best of my knowledge, not Mira's - not exactly. Please stop using it when debating.
This is not lunacy. This is common sense.
Oh, and Peregrine - Mab says that Bonnie becomes free if Harry dies.
Or has accepted a coin?
Who says that Bonnie becomes free if Harry dies?Who said she is not free already? Harry is not holding her captive.
Oh, and Peregrine - Mab says that Bonnie becomes free if Harry dies.Well, that'll do it.
Mr. Death: You hadn't replied to my assertion before that on Harry's death, a freed Bonnie could also give testimony on the pure facts of what had occurred. She knows everything that Harry knows, would be freed upon his death, and Mab is aware of her. Even though she doesn't understand the context of the knowledge she has ("Pancakes are inanimate!!") she always could report accurately all the sounds of the past fifteen minutes, for example.Sorry, I hadn't replied to it because I hadn't seen it. I've been kind of all over the place the last few days, so every time I come back to this thread, there's two or three new pages.
Furthermore, I want to also mention that there's other evidence that there would be witnesses to this exchange. The reason Harry closes the gate back to Marcone's vault right before he tackles the Gate of Ice is because he's fairly certain that Nicodemus would try some sort of underhanded assault deep in Hades' realm, where Mab was unlikely to have witnesses. Look at this in the reverse: If Harry was in more danger because there would not be witnesses here, then there must be a measure of safety in the real world because there could be witnesses. And again, I don't think that Nicodemus would be so reckless to jeopardize his entire enterprise on the chance that Mab doesn't have some way of verifying whether or not he's being treacherous, just to kill Harry a day ahead of time. If this job is important enough to kill Deidre for, it's important enough to not make stupid risks for personal vengeance.A measure of safety, yes. This doesn't confirm that Mab has accurate spies everywhere that will give her such a detailed account of the whole chase that she'll completely reject Nicodemus's version of events.
Wow, so a lot about whether or not Nicodemus can lie. Which obviously he can; he's a mortal. It's slightly questionable whether Anduriel can lie or not, but Nicodemus isn't held back by the limitations. The thing is, though, Nick probably just doesn't see the point in lying much; he's not ashamed of what he does, and he's very matter-of-fact about his actions. He's the hero of his own story. But he will certainly deceive others, and certainly lies throughout Skin Game. Huangjimmy's already pointed out some of the best points, so I don't really need to do too much here.
Jimmy - I agree with pretty much everything on your second response to me (the one about profitability) except for this last bit.At the point where Karrin appears with Fid, Harry and Butters have basically given up on being able to escape Nicodemus' trap and have decided to fight them. Everyone's preparing for a fight, and the second Dresden strikes, they all die. If Karrin doesn't show up with Fid, then Nick gets personal revenge and Mab is obligated to replace him with a servant of equal competence - which she has. Technically, Mab could offer Lea's services, and I think that Lea would have a pretty easy chance of getting through the gate of ice.
Also, I’ve been thinking more about the ‘pro forma quid pro quo’, and I don’t believe that it signifies that both Harry and Nicodemus broke the pact, and so therefore they cancel each other out. Yes, quid pro quo does signify that one thing is being exchanged for another, but pro forma is a statement that something is done as a matter of form, or as an estimate.
When the two latin phrases are put together and viewed in the context of the conversation, it seems that what Harry calls ‘pro-forma quid pro quo’ is the fiction that each of them are hiding behind. Nicodemus wouldn’t really have betrayed Harry unless he killed him, and Harry wouldn’t really have betrayed Nicodemus unless he had actually ushered him off to Michael’s house in safety. It is an exchange of an estimate of what would happen. Otherwise, there's no need for 'pro forma' in the sentence if it just means 'quid pro quo'.
Besides, it’s Latin. As Harry is far from an expert in Latin (dang correspondence course!) I wouldn’t take anything that he says in it as unassailable fact and interpret the scene from it. Unless he also makes lately and needs him a new laundress as well.
On a slightly different topic, I’ve been thinking of the Genoskwa’s actions during this fight. Nicodemus commands Gen to kill Harry and to make it hurt. And Gen… just doesn’t take the opportunity. Yes, it can be argued that maybe Gen was just enjoying torturing Harry too much. But he’s made it perfectly clear that he would enjoy nothing more but killing him. Why doesn’t Gen kill Harry when ordered to?
It’s clear that whatever thing that Nicodemus is attempting to achieve, that this heist is deadly critical to achieving that goal. He would not sacrifice his daughter, the person that he loves and trusts more than anything in the world, in order to just get a new supernatural artifact that he just found out about. If it’s critical enough to kill Deidre over, then I don’t think that there’s a chance – not a chance in hell – that Nicodemus would knowingly do anything that would rob him of the person he needs to get through the gate of ice.
Which means that Nicodemus wouldn’t put anything up to chance. I don’t believe that he would chance killing Dresden unless it was completely obvious that he had betrayed him, simply because he doesn’t know for sure if the Queen of Tricksey Faeries has eyes on the situation or not. That’s not something that Nicodemus would risk on a job so critical. And by the same token, I don’t believe that he would give the command for the Genoskwa to kill Dresden unless he was absolutely certain that he would not. Because if there’s any ambiguity about Dresden’s death, then the job is off.
So when the Genoskwa does not kill Harry, even though given ample time to and commanded to do so, this strikes me as very conspicuous.
I think it was more than likely that Nicodemus had a conversation with all of his hidden Denarians – that due to the circumstance of the bargain with Mab, none of them were allowed to kill him. Period. That makes the most sense; if Dresden is to die, Nicodemus would want to be in control so that he could not accidently lose the retainer from Winter that he was owed.
Well, that'll do it.That was when she was still in his head. Molly freed her.
That said, remember that Lasciel and Nicodemus know about Bonnie. If Harry dies right then and there, they're going to capture her for themselves. That's Lasciel's stated intent in Hades, remember.Hm, that's right. And they'd catch her, too, unless Mab were to literally appear at Harry's death. Which may be possible... While we don't know for certain where Mab is between the meeting with Kringle and Harry's confrontation with her at the BFS, I have a hunch that she stays in Chicago. Mostly due to the fact that the weather remains icky. If she's in Chicago, that would mean that Harry's mantle would return to Mab, not Molly, on Harry's death, which would tell her that her knight is no more.
A measure of safety, yes. This doesn't confirm that Mab has accurate spies everywhere that will give her such a detailed account of the whole chase that she'll completely reject Nicodemus's version of events.I hear what you say about Mab's recreation of the scene in Small Favor. Correct me if I'm wrong - that was what Mab was able to do with no forewarning, without any initial invested means of knowing that the movement of these Denarians would be important to her. To me, that doesn't say "wow, she's limited." Imagine what she could do if she was prepared.
Nicodemus wouldn’t really have betrayed Harry unless he killed him, and Harry wouldn’t really have betrayed NicodemusAgain, please note my earlier arguments over intent vs. deed, or as you put it, intent vs. what is actually done. We agreed that intent does not signify a betrayal, as you might remember. What matters is if Harry actually betrays Nicodemus. That means that what matters in the beginning is whether Dresden actually ushers Butters off to safety or not. After Nicodemus gives the order to Harry to kill Butters, what matters is if Harry actually kills Butters or not. And at this scene, everything is not played out, so Harry has not yet for certain saved Butters. Harry has not succeeded where Nicodemus has failed.
The later part of the sentence is blatantly false. Both Harry and Nick knew that Harry truly intend to help Butters, sabotaging Nick's attempt in the process whether Harry really intended to do so or not.
The equation is not balance. The scales are not satisfied.
It should be Nick truly intend to kill Harry and Harry truly inted to help Butters. Harry succeed, while Nick fail. Which is another inbalance that must be covered. Someone has to pay the price for this inbalance.
About gen. Gen does not directly crush Harry's head, because Nick has fid on his throat at the time. If Gen crush Harry's head, Murphy will be fully justify to smite Nick down. She'll only be too happy to cut his head off. Nick need to disarm Murphy first before anything else. It is sheer personal safety.... you DO realize that you're completely arguing in favor of my point, yet again?
After he succeeded in disarming Murphy and breaking fid, Harry is again saved from head crushing because Nick is gloating.
After that Harry is saved by Michael.
This is a more believable reason compare to Nicodemous instructing his people not to kill Harry because Harry is so irreplaceable.That wasn't quite my argument. Harry is totally replaceable if Mab offers another Winter Sidhe. Harry's agility compared to the grace of a sidhe is like comparing a toddler to a housecat. The big question is, will Mab replace Harry if Nicodemus is betraying their agreement?
Here is the thing. It is obvious to Nick that Harry is going to betray him. So the idea that Nick won't risk killing Harry unless Nick is certain about his betrayal is again another false assertion. He is already certain, he only need a pretext, an excuse.And again, this is another strawman, and you know why. It is Mab's opinion, not Nicodemus', that matters. You cannot make the same argument if it is said "So the idea that Nick won't risk killing Harry unless Nick is certain that Mab would see Harry's act as betrayal is again another false assertion." Mab doesn't just dole out replacements if Nicodemus felt justified in killing Dresden; she would only do so if Harry actually had broken Mab's word.
I mean, you just stated that when Nicodemus told the Genoskwa to kill Harry, that he wasn't actually trying to have Harry killed, because he would lose the piece of leverage he was using. This literally means that you are saying that this was all a ploy in order to get Karrin to expose the sword. It literally means that you are agreeing with Nicodemus.
You have just provided a logical, well-thought-out reason that Nicodemus was being accurate when he said that this was a ploy.
I can't believe that we are arguing about Nicodemous's credibility. That is why I call this lunacy. It is clear beyond a shadow of a doubt that Nick can lie and he did lie, a freaking lot, not all the time but the next best thing to it.Then why is proving it so hard?
"I know the value of your words and you know the value of mine". This phrase first used by shiro is proof enough. Nick is a lying cheating bastard, because JB design him as a complete nemesis to Michael's character. Arguing about this is pointless.Very character opinion driven though. I'd point out as Nic is also one of those few 2k year olds who know what's actually happening, knows about N and how the world actually works on metaphysical level, their's a whole heck of a lot of reasons for him not to bust outright lies, knowing full well why it became part of the balance for instance as a previously unbalanced force without a punisher or redeemer. Satan, the original accuser/nemesis role and how he used sin to claim the parts that had no balance in reality, no one to punish, based off of the cabbalistic seraphim and our level of reality and it's polar opposite spiritus mundus in previous satan, now his bride Lilith/Nemesis/Lachesis,ect, ect. Now Magic has no elemental punisher for crime
All I want to say is this. Had Nicodemous say something and he is the only sorce of information and with the absence of any other contrary proof, taking his words as truth is reasonable. No matter how you put it, the guy is still a character in the story, and his words are still text evidence. When he say that Harry is afraid of power during book 5, I take that statement as truth just fine. Why? Because nothing is going against that statement and Harry even somewhat agrees which further support the statement.As character witness's alone, sure.(haven't seen this happen fyi but thanks for calling me a lunatic and crazy and ect. WATCH the push, because shove is an easy extension) But just because they believe Nic to be a liar doesn't mean he did either. Take for face value that the knights have always had their own agenda(considering what else the nails are, I find this believable) and having that agenda has skewed the word of mouth knowledge of Nic and the fallen(as we know they lack much else written) then it becomes less of a concrete thing. You can take all the things said about Mab, and if you didn't know for a fact she couldn't lie, she'd be quite the liar to you. She's deceptive, two faced, manipulative, ect.
But taking Nicodemous's words as credible evidence, when there is at least 3 other characters who's words and actions contradicts Nicodemous's statement and under the condition where these 3 character are all reputable characters, that is a choice only made by crazy lunatics.
Hm, that's right. And they'd catch her, too, unless Mab were to literally appear at Harry's death. Which may be possible... While we don't know for certain where Mab is between the meeting with Kringle and Harry's confrontation with her at the BFS, I have a hunch that she stays in Chicago. Mostly due to the fact that the weather remains icky. If she's in Chicago, that would mean that Harry's mantle would return to Mab, not Molly, on Harry's death, which would tell her that her knight is no more.Granted, yeah, Mab's probably in Chicago. How quickly she could arrive without being summoned, we don't know. At the end of the book, Molly apparently has to cover the physical distance to arrive.
I hear what you say about Mab's recreation of the scene in Small Favor. Correct me if I'm wrong - that was what Mab was able to do with no forewarning, without any initial invested means of knowing that the movement of these Denarians would be important to her. To me, that doesn't say "wow, she's limited." Imagine what she could do if she was prepared.Here's the thing about Mab, though -- she doesn't want a Knight she has to keep tabs on and micromanage. Hell, that was Harry's threat -- that he'd become someone Mab had to micromanage. She seems to have picked Harry because of his ability to operate on his own and surprise her -- keeping a constant eye on him seems to go against that.
No, I mean really, imagine. She DOES have this band of elite spies and assassins at her beck and call, who can witness events play out through reflective surfaces. And in the icy, sleety environment, there's plenty of reflective surfaces. Heck, Harry even has some on him, one of which sits on his earlobe. Nick is holding another for most of the confrontation.
I mean, she's been putting together this plan for ages. She's spending the weekend making sure everything goes to plan. Is it really improbable that she wouldn't task a Fetch with watching Harry's back, and alerting her when things got dicey? I mean, I know that Harry fought some Fetches a while back, but he's all winter and stuff now.
Besides, Harry's words to Nicodemus when he closes the gate talk about Mab watching directly. They are fighting in Mab's element.
I've given you evidence that Mab may be watching herself, and provided a good number of other witnesses who could have done the job. (and yes, the Cobbs Harry met at Shoegasm wouldn't have been watching, but that was mostly just an example that not all little folk have heads as full of corn silk as the Major General and his colonels). But at the end of the day, the question remains: even if Nicodemus only has a reasonable chance that Mab might not be watching closely, would he really risk killing Dresden if it wasn't 100% obvious and clear that Harry had betrayed him? Especially on a job that is so important, he is willing to sacrifice his daughter over?It is obvious and clear Harry had betrayed him. He gave Harry an order (to kill Butters) and Harry slaps him on the wrist. Everybody present knows what it looks like when Harry tries to kill something. Especially Nicodemus -- Harry's tried to kill him a few times. and that Forzare spell was clearly not cast with lethal intent.
Hm, that's right. And they'd catch her, too, unless Mab were to literally appear at Harry's death. Which may be possible... While we don't know for certain where Mab is between the meeting with Kringle and Harry's confrontation with her at the BFS, I have a hunch that she stays in Chicago. Mostly due to the fact that the weather remains icky. If she's in Chicago, that would mean that Harry's mantle would return to Mab, not Molly, on Harry's death, which would tell her that her knight is no more.I hear what you say about Mab's recreation of the scene in Small Favor. Correct me if I'm wrong - that was what Mab was able to do with no forewarning, without any initial invested means of knowing that the movement of these Denarians would be important to her. To me, that doesn't say "wow, she's limited." Imagine what she could do if she was prepared.
No, I mean really, imagine. She DOES have this band of elite spies and assassins at her beck and call, who can witness events play out through reflective surfaces. And in the icy, sleety environment, there's plenty of reflective surfaces. Heck, Harry even has some on him, one of which sits on his earlobe. Nick is holding another for most of the confrontation.
I mean, she's been putting together this plan for ages. She's spending the weekend making sure everything goes to plan. Is it really improbable that she wouldn't task a Fetch with watching Harry's back, and alerting her when things got dicey? I mean, I know that Harry fought some Fetches a while back, but he's all winter and stuff now.
Besides, Harry's words to Nicodemus when he closes the gate talk about Mab watching directly. They are fighting in Mab's element.
I've given you evidence that Mab may be watching herself, and provided a good number of other witnesses who could have done the job. (and yes, the Cobbs Harry met at Shoegasm wouldn't have been watching, but that was mostly just an example that not all little folk have heads as full of corn silk as the Major General and his colonels). But at the end of the day, the question remains: even if Nicodemus only has a reasonable chance that Mab might not be watching closely, would he really risk killing Dresden if it wasn't 100% obvious and clear that Harry had betrayed him? Especially on a job that is so important, he is willing to sacrifice his daughter over?
Again, please note my earlier arguments over intent vs. deed, or as you put it, intent vs. what is actually done. We agreed that intent does not signify a betrayal, as you might remember. What matters is if Harry actually betrays Nicodemus. That means that what matters in the beginning is whether Dresden actually ushers Butters off to safety or not. After Nicodemus gives the order to Harry to kill Butters, what matters is if Harry actually kills Butters or not. And at this scene, everything is not played out, so Harry has not yet for certain saved Butters. Harry has not succeeded where Nicodemus has failed.
It does not matter a bit what he intends to do, but what he actually does. Otherwise, Nick could have just killed Harry as he ran toward the Carpenters' house in the beginning. Instead, Nicodemus shows up, acts as if Harry was obviously pursuing Butters, and then makes him choose between allowing Butters' death or fighting them and betraying Mab.
Nicodemus wants to make sure Dresden is clearly breaking the truce.
... you DO realize that you're completely arguing in favor of my point, yet again?
I mean, you just stated that when Nicodemus told the Genoskwa to kill Harry, that he wasn't actually trying to have Harry killed, because he would lose the piece of leverage he was using. This literally means that you are saying that this was all a ploy in order to get Karrin to expose the sword. It literally means that you are agreeing with Nicodemus.
You have just provided a logical, well-thought-out reason that Nicodemus was being accurate when he said that this was a ploy.
And furthermore, you provided extra evidence that I hadn't even thought of. If Karrin is completely justified in killing Nicodemus if he has the Genoskwa killed, there's only one reason for that to be the case. It would mean that Nicodemus had taken an action which contradicted his submission and relinquishment of the coin. This would imply that Nicodemus did not truly "relinquish his claim on the blood of the innocent." Because that would mean in this case that Harry was innocent and Nicodemus truly did not have a right to his blood under the agreement.
I mean, come on. Don't you see this? At all? You just literally agreed to me. I've shown several times in this thread that I'm not allergic to admitting when I'm wrong and adjusting my beliefs based off of it - after all, I'm not arguing to Mr. Death anymore that Murphy must be under some evil influence. Come on.
Second... Harry is safe from Genoskwa after the sword breaks, because... what, Nicodemus is gloating? I don't understand your reasoning there. I mean, sure, the Genoskwa probably doesn't have friends with Internet access, so he probably hasn't read that Evil Overlord list, either. But come on. The Genoskwa is a vicious, brutal, carnal predator. When he decides to kill something, he kills it. He doesn't just hang there and wait so that Harry can feel emotional pain.
If Nicodemus' life being in danger was holding him back before, it sure isn't now. Pretty sure that Gen would then drink his blood like a bottle of pop.
That wasn't quite my argument. Harry is totally replaceable if Mab offers another Winter Sidhe. Harry's agility compared to the grace of a sidhe is like comparing a toddler to a housecat. The big question is, will Mab replace Harry if Nicodemus is betraying their agreement?
Again, intentions don't matter. What matters is what actually happens.
And again, this is another strawman, and you know why. It is Mab's opinion, not Nicodemus', that matters. You cannot make the same argument if it is said "So the idea that Nick won't risk killing Harry unless Nick is certain that Mab would see Harry's act as betrayal is again another false assertion." Mab doesn't just dole out replacements if Nicodemus felt justified in killing Dresden; she would only do so if Harry actually had broken Mab's word.
Then why is proving it so hard? Very character opinion driven though. I'd point out as Nic is also one of those few 2k year olds who know what's actually happening, knows about N and how the world actually works on metaphysical level, their's a whole heck of a lot of reasons for him not to bust outright lies, knowing full well why it became part of the balance for instance as a previously unbalanced force without a punisher or redeemer. Satan, the original accuser/nemesis role and how he used sin to claim the parts that had no balance in reality, no one to punish, based off of the cabbalistic seraphim and our level of reality and it's polar opposite spiritus mundus in previous satan, now his bride Lilith/Nemesis/Lachesis,ect, ect. Now Magic has no elemental punisher for crimeAs character witness's alone, sure.(haven't seen this happen fyi but thanks for calling me a lunatic and crazy and ect. WATCH the push, because shove is an easy extension) But just because they believe Nic to be a liar doesn't mean he did either. Take for face value that the knights have always had their own agenda(considering what else the nails are, I find this believable) and having that agenda has skewed the word of mouth knowledge of Nic and the fallen(as we know they lack much else written) then it becomes less of a concrete thing. You can take all the things said about Mab, and if you didn't know for a fact she couldn't lie, she'd be quite the liar to you. She's deceptive, two faced, manipulative, ect.(click to show/hide)
If it is so easy to catch a devil in a lie, the devil won't be the devil, unless you are TWG.We also has to be nice to our fellows here and none of this is conclusive Yellow Jim of the 108 blessings. Your taking an opinion and because the idea opposed to it is so repugnant, slathering it in ego. Please don't.
The fact that it is so hard to prove the lie is testament to Nick's skill, not his credibility.
How do I know? Because WoJ say that Nick is Michael nemesis in character.
We has to start with assuming that Nick is lying and go from there, not the other way around.
We also has to be nice to our fellows here and none of this is conclusive Yellow Jim of the 108 blessings. Your taking an opinion and because the idea opposed to it is so repugnant, slathering it in ego. Please don't.
Your skin is too thin.My existence devoids your argument, here I am doing just that thank you greatly. So it was void before you ever uttered it as I was already here championing it. An your words are too Harsh considering good sir. I have my leather glove it hand...
Yes, if you want to nit pick about it, you can focus on my "name calling", and I admit I am a bit carried away there
This however does not avoid my argument. It is inconceivable to me that someone would put efford to argue in favor of Nicodemous's credibility.
Your skin is too thin.Denarian! :)
Yes, if you want to nit pick about it, you can focus on my "name calling", and I admit I am a bit carried away there
This however does not avoid my argument. It is inconceivable to me that someone would put efford to argue in favor of Nicodemous's credibility.
Not so. Simply getting his agreement to talk couldn't be considered as successful of a resolution as killing him; dead men don't speak, after all. It's possible that Dresden could have convinced Nicodemus to either let him cast his sleep spell on Butters to make him unconscious for the duration of the heist, or to take him prisoner surrounded by Nick's goon squad, but I doubt he would accept those as an alternate plan. Harry didn't seem to think that it was worth trying.
No, the point is, who was Butters going to tell? Marcone? Well, Murphy is a lot closer and on speaking terms with Marcone where as Butters really isn't.. Actually the fact that she has worked with and for Marcone in the past, Murphy would have been more likely than Butters to reveal Nic's plans, yet she was allowed to be part of team Harry. So no, there was no real reason for Butters to die... By ordering it he was pushing to see if Harry would blindly follow Mab's orders to him to cooperate with him... Knowing before hand that killing Butters was a non-issue for Harry, he pressed it with the added theatrics of Geno about to crush his skull to insight Murphy to attack using the Sword which he knew she'd misuse and get it broke, then he'd take her out, and leave Harry isolated with no balancing power to his own crew... Like I said he didn't anticipate Michael/Uriel..Butters knows too much, therefore he's a risk to the operation. None of that armchair analysis would factor in Nicodemus's thinking.
If it is so easy to catch a devil in a lie, the devil won't be the devil, unless you are TWG.Being Michael’s nemesis does not imply that every word he says is a lie, unless proven otherwise. Which, logically, I and others have given ample evidence for. I don’t think that a single person is arguing in favor of Nicodemus’ credibility.
The fact that it is so hard to prove the lie is testament to Nick's skill, not his credibility.
How do I know? Because WoJ say that Nick is Michael nemesis in character.
We has to start with assuming that Nick is lying and go from there, not the other way around.
cred·i·bil·i·tyNo one is believing Nicodemus on his own merits, but from the evidence of the scene. I would like to request that statements like “I cannot believe that we are arguing about Nicodemus’ credibility” would stop being made, as it is a back-door ad hominem argument. Stating “Nicodemus is not a credible person” is a good method of debate. Stating “It is inconceivable to me that someone would put efford to argue in favor of Nicodemous's credibility” attacks the people you debate with.
ˌkredəˈbilədē/
noun
The quality of being trusted and believed in.
Here's the thing about Mab, though -- she doesn't want a Knight she has to keep tabs on and micromanage. Hell, that was Harry's threat -- that he'd become someone Mab had to micromanage. She seems to have picked Harry because of his ability to operate on his own and surprise her -- keeping a constant eye on him seems to go against that.What Dresden threatens Mab with is not that she would have to keep an eye on him. What he threatens is that he'll have no initiative, no drive, come up with no creative solutions and basically just follow her commands literally. In this case, Mab would have to give Harry continual commands and basically direct Harry in his actions.
So yes, it's possible that Mab is watching everything. I don't think it likely, and I don't think it matters, because...
"I'll do it. I'll follow your command. And I will do nothing else. I'll make every task you command one you personally oversee. I'll have the initiative of a garden statue."Dresden's threats are related to his lack of initiation. And he doesn't say "I don't think you have the time to watch your knight," it's "I don't think you have the time to fight your knight."
...
"I think you don't have the time or energy to spare to fight your own knight anymore. I think you need me, or you wouldn't have gone to all the trouble of keeping me alive for this long, of taxing your strength this much to get it done."
The order is not "Secure the mortal doctor". THe order is "End him". THe question is did Butters die or not. And don't mention it is not yet certain, because it is certain. Once Butters pass the fence into Michael's home, it is over and finalize If at that point Butters did not die, it means Harry has fail.I will mention that it is not certain at this point, because Michael's house does not protect a person from mortal attack. If evidence is given that Harry could not have pulled out a gun and shot Butters in the head, then we'll talk. But the only argument against this is the argument of intent.
It is the same as Harry coming back to Chicago from demonreach island after he make a deal with eldest gruf in book 10. Once Harry step into Chicago, the game is ended and Eldest gruf fail the job. There is no uncertainty about it. Harry is task to end Butters and he fail, breaking Mab's given word in the process.If there is no uncertainty for it, please provide what evidence this arbitrary line provides other than the more literal line of Butters literally escaping death. When Butters crosses the fence, it does not protect him in any way from the one person who is commanded to kill him. It just protects him from the monsters making the commandment.
Do you really think Mab is going to argue that the Winter Knight that she picked personally, who she pursued for near a decade, and who she proclaimed as hers to all of Faerie... is an incompetent incapable of killing a defenseless, fragile mortal like Butters?It's no secret that Mab believes that Harry's actions are strange, inept, and downright odd. She chastised Harry for squeamishness for not outright killing one of Nicodemus' goons when they all first met. Harry's made it perfectly clear that he doesn't want to kill mortals. And besides, Mab knows how to play the game.
If intent does not matter, Butters will have to die before the equation is balance. The final result matters, no excuses. Nick can't kill Harry, but Harry has to end Butters by all cost.First, I never said a thing about Mab twisting things around. But the books make it clear that Faeries twist around the truth all the time to make things seem one way when telling the truth. Note, Lea making a deal with Teen Harry that she will give him power, when all she does is torture him a bit. Or her aid of Harry in the graveyard in Grave Peril, only for the answer to have just been running water.
Balance is what drives the fae, and no, just because Mab's perception that matters, she can't just twist things and argue her way out of everything. There is a law governing this. If she is not bound, nobody in their right mind would want to make deals with her. She can twist everything and thereby no credibility. Do you think Mab is a freaking dishonorable Denarians?
Again I mention this. If Butters truly die, this "Intent" argument of yours will be more plausible. But since Butters did not die, this excuse is not applicable.I do not understand this argument. So, if Harry doesn't intend to kill Butters, but somehow kills Butters, then the argument that he didn't intend to kill Butters has more weight to defend why he didn't kill Butters even though he did kill Butters? I have a feeling that this is not what you are trying to state, but I just can't figure out what you are arguing.
As for Nick gloating. Well, he is human in the end. He has just succeeded in destroying one of the holy sword. It is only reasonable that he'll take some time to celebrate. Capable as Nick is, there is still some limit. He is not perfect. Like I said, even Mab, the absolute Queen, has her emotional moments, like not killing Maeve with her own hands for example. If even Mab can show some emotional response, so does Nick. It is an understandable lapse of judgement on Nick's part. a small lapse at that, and would not have mattered at all if not for Michael and Uriel's intervention.I have no problem with Nicodemus going into gloat-mode, like every evil overlord shouldn't. My stated argument was that if the Genoskwa was refraining from killing Harry because he somehow saw that Nicodemus' command would put his leader's life in jeopardy, as was argued, then he has nothing holding him back after the sword is broken. "He was waiting because Nicodemus was gloating" doesn't make sense. Has the Genoskwa ever shown that he cares about gloating, or one-upmanship? Or has he just been about brutal violence and killing?
Because of these reasons, I believe that when Nicodemus claimed that it was a ruse, he was not lying; he was revealing a played hand to Harry to refute his claim.No one is arguing that Nic is a liar, but let agree that he is also very clever... What is a ruse? But a trick or a type of lie... Nic is good at it, he is very clever and succeeded before he was seen through.. It was a temporary victory for him...
"So you ordered my knight to kill the mortal, and then you killed him after his first blow."More like
"He moved the doctor across the fence! It's right there! There's guardian angels and stuff."
"And this fence would protect the mortal from my Knight?"
"Well, no. Not in the slightest. But it means that Dresden didn't intend to kill him after all."
"So you say. And so you killed my Knight after he let the mortal go free?"
"Well, not quite after. More like before. My mutant Bigfoot started smacking him around at that point, so he really couldn't do anything one way or another."
Again, I state: This is the evidence that Nicodemus' actions at this point were to draw Harry and Murphy into breaking Mab's agreement, rather than just trying to kill them outright. Every item here I've provided evidence for, so I'm just going to list them one by one.He doesn't exactly. He denies the attempt by likening it to what they both know is a ruse. Nicodemus's near exact words are, "He didn't try to kill you, just like you didn't try to help the doctor escape us, wink wink."
1. When Harry asserts that ordering his goon to kill him would be breaking his contract with Mab, Nicodemus agrees.
2. When ordered to kill Harry, the Genoskwa just holds his head and squeezes for about five minutes, though his expressed inclination would be to kill him.Nicodemus says to make it hurt. That means take your time, not do it instantly.
3. Harry does not fail to kill Butters; he strikes his first blow and is viciously attacked and restrained. This is the objective truth.Does the attack kill Butters? No. Everybody present except the Genoskwa has seen Harry use instant, lethal magic, so they know that Harry could have incinerated Butters in an instant if he wanted. Nicodemus has been strangled by Harry, twice. He knows that Harry could have easily killed Butters with his bare hands when he was already holding Butters.
4. Butters is still on the field of battle and is vulnerable to attacks from half of the members of Nicodemus' team.The squires aren't there.
5. This heist is of grave importance to Nicodemus' long-term goals, and it is not in Nicodemus' best interest to kill Harry if there is any ambiguity as to whether or not he has broken the truce.There isn't. Not enough of it that Nicodemus can't argue his case, because, unfortunately, his case is the actual truth -- Harry deliberately and willfully hampered the capture of a spy.
6. The exchange in front of Michael's house has been, from the start, Nicodemus trying to trap Harry into breaking the deal. It is not unreasonable to consider whether this is a continuation of that trap.Harry had already broken the deal. If anything, Nicodemus was just trying to make his case rock solid, but as it is? He'd win in any reasonable court.
In the interest of rhetorical fairness, Harry does have the excuse of it still being illegal to kill mortals with magic, even when working for utter bastards. An argument could have been made that his lack of immediate head exploding of Butters was because he was trying to avoid doing something that would get him executed by the Wardens.Arguing such would have to ignore that Harry possesses: a large caliber handgun, so he could've just shot Butters; a six-foot length of oak, so he could've just smashed his head in; and a pair of working hands, so he could have strangled Butters.
That said, that would only be an excuse, much like his "incompetence" at catching Butters in the first place, and everyone involved (except a few people arguing here) know he was really trying to help Butters escape, Mab's orders be damned.
"Why, it was no more an attempt to kill you than was your participation in the chase of the little doctor a betrayal of Mab's word that you'd aid me."
I haven’t exactly abandoned my line of thought as “obviously wrong,” but it has holes that I can’t ignore. And until I think of something else that supports it or counters your arguments, I’m going to proceed under the assumption that Nicodemus recognized that Harry’s force blast of Butters was the piece of evidence he needed argue beyond reasonable doubt that Harry was not working in good faith.He argued that, but he knew that Harry would avoid killing Butters at all costs.. He knew Harry's chase of Butters wasn't a betrayal of his agreement with Mab to aid him. No big deal, but it was a lovely excuse to put pressure on Murphy. Harry's little blast to put Butters out of danger wasn't a betrayal of anything... Think about it, if it was, Nic would be the first to make a HUGE stink about it to Mab...He would of demand anything from Harry's immediate execution to insisting that Harry not be allowed anyone on his team on the mission, which would have been greatly to Nic's advantage.. Nic is all about gaining advantage... But he didn't. Why? No agreement was broken in any of it..
That makes Karrin’s position here all the more difficult. Because the truth of the matter is, if Nicodemus is right to kill Harry AND Karrin, then whatever way you slice it, Harry dies – either by Nick’s hands, or Mab’s. This thought makes me uncomfortable, because it would mean that unless there’s some real literal deus ex machina happening right then, Karrin calling Nicodemus’ bluff could very well mean that it’s not a bluff anymore, and Harry essentially dies.No, he wouldn't have been, because as Nic admits later, Harry's chase and saving of Butters broke no agreement with Mab.. Also if Nic wanted Harry dead at the moment, it would have happened almost instantly at Geno's hands nothing short of a high powered pre-aimed rifle bullet to his head would have stopped it from happening.. Certainly not a run at Nic by Murphy, and once that was over, nothing to stop it from happening.. Nic would have insisted... Yeah, he still wants Harry dead, but not until he retrieves what he wants, the Grail etc... After he did try very hard to get him killed.. He still could have insisted after it was totally over that Mab execute her Winter Knight for the earlier events..Heck she might have done it without any prompting, she takes her bargains very seriously, but she didn't..
Mr. Death, you are an excellent debater.Thank you. I enjoyed it as well, and you ended up making me see new aspects to the scene that I hadn't realized before.
I really don’t like admitting it, but I can’t at the moment argue against your points. You’re making a far more logical argument than I am. I do see your point. The magical attack against Butters acts as proof that Harry was, in fact, impeding the chase earlier. It demonstrates his intention and does not really leave room for ambiguity. And the fact of the matter is, Warden Dresden would not use magic to kill Butters.
I haven’t exactly abandoned my line of thought as “obviously wrong,” but it has holes that I can’t ignore. And until I think of something else that supports it or counters your arguments, I’m going to proceed under the assumption that Nicodemus recognized that Harry’s force blast of Butters was the piece of evidence he needed argue beyond reasonable doubt that Harry was not working in good faith.
That makes Karrin’s position here all the more difficult. Because the truth of the matter is, if Nicodemus is right to kill Harry AND Karrin, then whatever way you slice it, Harry dies – either by Nick’s hands, or Mab’s. This thought makes me uncomfortable, because it would mean that unless there’s some real literal deus ex machina happening right then, Karrin calling Nicodemus’ bluff could very well mean that it’s not a bluff anymore, and Harry essentially dies.
I need to think about all this for a while. Thanks for the awesome debate. I’ll be back probably in 12-32 hours.
Butters knows too much, therefore he's a risk to the operation. None of that armchair analysis would factor in Nicodemus's thinking.
Nobody planning that kind of crime is going to look at someone who was actively and deliberately spying on their planning session and say, "Nah, they're not gonna tell anyone what we're up to, we can just leave him be." The very idea makes no sense whatsoever.
"Why, it was no more an attempt to kill you than was your participation in the chase of the little doctor a betrayal of Mab's word that you'd aid me."Point is, once the Sword was broken, Nic no longer insisted on Butters being killed... Butters' knowledge of the operation was no less than it was minutes before the Sword was broken. Butters was just as much a threat after the Sword was broken if what you say is true, than he was before when Harry was chasing him.. But once the Sword was broken, Nic stopped insisting that Butters be killed, not even an insistence that he be confined to Michael's place and all forms of communication be blocked from him... So the idea that Butters at any time was a serious threat to the operation is bogus and not born out by the facts.. Because if Butters really was a threat, he wouldn't have stopped being a threat with the breaking of the Sword.
Harry's little blast to put Butters out of danger wasn't a betrayal of anything... Think about it, if it was, Nic would be the first to make a HUGE stink about it to Mab...He would of demand anything from Harry's immediate execution to insisting that Harry not be allowed anyone on his team on the mission, which would have been greatly to Nic's advantage.. Nic is all about gaining advantage... But he didn't. Why? No agreement was broken in any of it..
Nic won, supposedly nothing else had changed if you go by the argument that Harry should have been killed because he broke the agreement with Mab.. He wasn't, if that was the intent it would have happened instantly as soon as the Sword broke and Murphy started to bleed on the sidewalk. It would have happened before anyone in Michael's yard could make a move. Didn't happen. Why? Because Nic never intended for him to die.This is the one argument that you’re making that I thinks makes the most sense, and I can’t reconcile with huangjimmy’s and Mr. Death’s logic. And to be clear guys, I *do* still think that the Death/Jimmy version of events makes more sense. But I was hoping that either Mr. Death or huangjimmy might be able to address this one directly, to clear it up, because I just can't think of how this makes sense.
“I know,” Michael said. “But you’re going to let them go.”
“And why should I do that?”
“Because if you do,” Michael said, “I’ll walk out this gate.”
Even where I was, I could almost see the blaze of hatred that flared out of Nicodemus’s eyes. His shadow went insane, flickering from side to side, surging up the white picket fence like an incoming tide chewing at a stone cliff.
“Now, then,” Nicodemus said to Michael. His sword had never ceased pointing at Karrin’s heart. “If I release this pair, you will step through that gate?”So the long and short of it is that Nicodemus apparently did intend to kill Harry and Murphy -- this intent is apparent enough that Michael sure seems to think he needs to sacrifice himself for them both -- but Nic considered Michael a much better prize. A good enough prize that he apparently intends to actually honor Michael's bargain of letting Harry and Murphy go.
Michael nodded once. “I will. You have my word.”
Nicodemus’s eyes glittered. He looked up at the Genoskwa and nodded, and suddenly I was on the ground, untouched, with the giant thing looming over me.
“Two of you,” I said to Nicodemus. “Two of us. What do you think, Nick?”
Michael faced him squarely, both hands on the hilt of Amoracchius. The Sword’s light filled the air—and Nicodemus’s shadow quailed before it.
Nicodemus finally stood back. He lowered his blade and said, “Dresden. I expect you back at our headquarters by four a.m.” He turned to go.
Nicodemus doesn’t have to appeal to Mab in order to off a traitor. He doesn’t have to demand Harry’s execution, for example, because he worked against Nicodemus and essentially stained Mab’s honor. When Mab repays a debt, it is repaid.
In this case, you argue that the fact that Nicodemus doesn’t immediately appeal to Mab is conspicuous. The Genoskwa does immediately attack after Harry’s action, followed by the fight. He does an extremely excellent and brutal job of almost executing Dresden, and the only reason that the execution is not carried out is because Karrin has Nicodemus trapped, who commands the Genoskwa to hold. I do not see this as conspicuous; this is the way that the situation would logically play out if both Denarians recognized this as the moment that all bets were off.
This is the one argument that you’re making that I thinks makes the most sense, and I can’t reconcile with huangjimmy’s and Mr. Death’s logic. And to be clear guys, I *do* still think that the Death/Jimmy version of events makes more sense. But I was hoping that either Mr. Death or huangjimmy might be able to address this one directly, to clear it up, because I just can't think of how this makes sense.
Normally at this point, I would include a quote from Skin Game, but the particular section I want to reference just is far too long. From the moment that Fidelacchius is shattered to the moment that Michael steps out of his house, there is an extraordinarily long period of time in which the Genoskwa is doing nothing but just holding Harry’s head tightly. He’s not torturing him, he’s not banging him around, and he’s certainly not increasing pressure. Harry describes the Genoskwa’s grip two separate times in this period, and both times he talks about how he just can’t do a thing to Gen – not how Gen responds with pain, like he did when trying to warn Murphy earlier. Harry never says a thing about pain at all; at most, he just says that he sees things through a red haze.
Could either of you respond to this specific point? If Nicodemus was in his rights to kill Harry at this point, there was no further proof needed to Mab to demonstrate his betrayal, and the Genoskwa was really honestly going to kill him, then what’s with Gen’s relative pacifism while watching Nicodemus gloat?
By Mab’s reckoning, I was pretty sure, Nicodemus and I had played this one out evenly. My actions in protecting Butters could be explained as bad luck and sincere incompetence. Nicodemus’s attempt to kill me could be explained as a ploy to destroy the Sword.So Uriel tells Harry to get him a bit of time, and so the first words Harry utters after being released from the Genoskwa’s grip is an accusation to Nicodemus that he broke Mab’s truce agreement. Nick responds by essentially saying that he didn’t actually break the contract, because Harry was never really in danger.
Dangit, Arjan, that's what quote marks and commas are for, I had to read your first sentence like six times before I understood it :PBig hands and a small phone make things difficult sometimes. :)
Could either of you respond to this specific point? If Nicodemus was in his rights to kill Harry at this point, there was no further proof needed to Mab to demonstrate his betrayal, and the Genoskwa was really honestly going to kill him, then what’s with Gen’s relative pacifism while watching Nicodemus gloat?The Genoskwa waited for a sign from Nicodemus.
And there’s one last thing. This, I want to really request that you answer thoroughly. Your argument had convinced me mostly due to your argument about how Mab wouldn’t admit that her knight was behaving incompetently in this situation. If that was the case, then why does Harry still believe that Mab would reckon that Harry’s actions could be explained as incompetence? If Mab just couldn’t admit that her chosen Knight had trouble with one-hit killing a puny mortal, then why is this any sort of defense at all? Harry knows Mab and what she would consider a breach of contract. He knows her probably better than any mortal alive.Just saw this bit.
Last, Mira - also just saw your post. A few things:
1. Butters is unconscious until Uriel shakes him awake. Presumably, Nicodemus is going about killing Murphy first. Maybe the reason Harry's still alive here is in order to tell Dresden to shoot Butters, so that when he refuses Nick can kill him without ambiguity once and for all.
Oh, drat, did I just answer my question to Mr. Death on the Genoskwa? Maybe. But if true, that would imply that this IS still somewhat of a ploy. Anyways...
2. Gen didn't release Harry until after the deal was made with Michael.
3. Again, Butters *is* a threat to the heist. Nick doesn't know that Marcone doesn't know about the heist, so it's presumed that if Butters squeals then the deal is off.
Nicodemus isn't so much saying that Harry was never in danger as he's calling it a draw and backing off to come at him again later. What he's effectively saying is that if Harry tries to call off the deal now on the grounds of Nicodemus trying to kill him, Nicodemus can point out that Harry broke faith first and get him in trouble with Mab. They're at a stalemate at that point, and Nicodemus is content with that for the moment.
I agree with you (mostly) on the inconsistencies with Gen's refusal to really do much other than hold Harry when Nick is beating the snot out of Karrin. But it's clear that when the sword is broken, that's not the end of it. Because the sword alone isn't Nick's only goal - he will take out Dresden and Murphy, if he can.
“Face it, Miss Murphy,” Nicodemus said, keeping pace with her. His shadow swarmed all over the ground around her, surrounding her. “Your heart”—the tip of his sword dipped toward it by way of illustration— “simply wasn’t in the right place.”The text of the book clearly has Nicodemus literally seconds away from killing her, with a cheeky one-liner to boot.
He paused there, long enough to give her time to see the sword thrust coming.
She faced him, her eyes fierce and frightened, her face pale with pain.
And the front door of the Carpenters’ house opened.