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The Dresden Files => DF Spoilers => Topic started by: groinkick on April 09, 2019, 05:51:56 PM
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Justin was a warden who ran around with Harry's mom. He had been part of the assault on Kemmler, he had access to Bob... In other words I think that Morgan was right, Harry should not have stood a chance against Justin in a fair fight. This begs the question, how could Harry have beat him?
I have a few lines of though.
1. Justin's magic was locked down by someone, rendering him defenseless against Harry.
2. Harry was tricked into killing the wrong person, allowing Justin to fake his own death.
3. Someone turbo charged Harry's power, overwhelming Justin's defenses.
I sometimes wonder if Elaine actually helped kill Justin... That she had been instructed to by HHWBehind, or another wizard?
I don't really know but after seeing how Harry (and other ambitious wizards) get more, and more powerful over time it just seems so unlikely Harry could have won. I mean imagine the Harry Dresden from Skin Game vs the Harry Dresden from Storm Front... It wouldn't even be a close fight, and Justin was much older than Harry is right now.
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I don't really know but after seeing how Harry (and other ambitious wizards) get more, and more powerful over time it just seems so unlikely Harry could have won. I mean imagine the Harry Dresden from Skin Game vs the Harry Dresden from Storm Front... It wouldn't even be a close fight, and Justin was much older than Harry is right now.
I think part of it was that Justin underestimated Harry, and Harry probably got the drop on him. If Harry managed to surprise him by breaking Elaine's restraining spell and injured him, that would shift the odds. For the rest, Harry has said repeatedly that he's in the top 40 for raw power, and he mentioned in Skin Game that he'd win in fight where he used raw power to counter precision against most wizards. If Justin underestimated Harry, and was already hurt, I can see him just exhausting himself trying to subdue Harry.
In addition, Justin may not have necessarily been trying to kill Harry so much as restrain him, which would have limited what he could do to Harry.
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I think part of it was that Justin underestimated Harry, and Harry probably got the drop on him. If Harry managed to surprise him by breaking Elaine's restraining spell and injured him, that would shift the odds. For the rest, Harry has said repeatedly that he's in the top 40 for raw power, and he mentioned in Skin Game that he'd win in fight where he used raw power to counter precision against most wizards. If Justin underestimated Harry, and was already hurt, I can see him just exhausting himself trying to subdue Harry.
In addition, Justin may not have necessarily been trying to kill Harry so much as restrain him, which would have limited what he could do to Harry.
He didn't get the jump on Justin.
(http://www.atfmb.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/06/dresden_009.jpg)
Harry's raw power doesn't mean diddly in a lot of cases. As I said above, Jim said Harry would be easily defeated by those on the Senior Council. He even said that Morgan would have beaten him easily. I believe he said "Harry was to Morgan what Morgan was to Eb". So if Justin was anywhere near Morgan's level, he shouldn't have had any difficulty beating Harry.
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He didn't get the jump on Justin.
Only if you consider the comic books as canon. I generally don't, because the information revealed in the comic books doesn't appear to fit the timeline of when the comic books are supposed to take place.
Harry's raw power doesn't mean diddly in a lot of cases. As I said above, Jim said Harry would be easily defeated by those on the Senior Council. He even said that Morgan would have beaten him easily. I believe he said "Harry was to Morgan what Morgan was to Eb". So if Justin was anywhere near Morgan's level, he shouldn't have had any difficulty beating Harry.
Harry explicitly says in Skin Game that his raw power allows him to counter other wizards' skill. Here's the quote:
The second sphere came flying at me and I countered by lifting my staff and shouting "Defendarius!" A broad wall of force shimmered into being in front of me, and the sphere smashed against it and exploded into a cloud of flame that spread out along its length and breadth, as if seeking a way around it. The heat was viciously intense, and enough of it would have burned through the shield--but it was a question of volume. Ascher had struck at me with pinpoint precision and intensity. I'd countered her with raw power, using a shield big enough to spread the heat over a wide enough area to keep it from burning through.
Ascher let out a snarl of frustration and hurled another sphere. Her thinking was obvious--if she could keep pouring fire onto me and force me to hold up shield after shield against it, eventually she could either burn through it or exhaust my ability to keep holding it up. I'd have taken that fight against a lot of practitioners: There are relatively few wizards on the White Council who can stay with me in terms of pure magical horsepower. But while there are plenty of wizards who could wear themselves out pounding on my shields. I had a pretty solid intuition that Ascher could keep throwing fire until I was a gasping heap on the ground, especially with Lasciel's knowledge and experience backing her up.
Note that Harry has previously said that Hannah was Senior Council-level with fire magic. Justin was not Senior Council-level; I seriously doubt he was even Morgan-level, given that Morgan was known to be one of, if not the most dangerous Wardens; and I absolutely believe that if Justin was trying to blast through Harry's shield then he would be one of the wizards who would exhaust themselves trying to break through.
Remember, per Ghost Story Justin wasn't teaching Harry offensive magic, so he would have no reason to suspect that Harry could pull off a decent offense. I don't think Harry could win by slinging attacks, but if he had the sense to mostly defend himself at first then I believe that Justin could, and likely would, wear himself out trying to break Harry's shield, until it got to the point where Harry could launch a successful attack against Justin.
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Only if you consider the comic books as canon. I generally don't, because the information revealed in the comic books doesn't appear to fit the timeline of when the comic books are supposed to take place.
fair enough
Harry explicitly says in Skin Game that his raw power allows him to counter other wizards' skill. Here's the quote:
Note that Harry has previously said that Hannah was Senior Council-level with fire magic.
First he said "White Council".. Harry is White Council. Anyone considered a wizard is White Council. Not only that but does he really know what a Senior Council member can do with fire magic? I don't think so. He's never fought a Senior member of the Council before. He's witnessed some of them using fire, but not in any kind of desperate situation where they were really unloading.
Justin was not Senior Council-level;
Pure speculation. We don't know what level he was at. Being on the Senior Council has a great deal to do with #1 power, #2. age. Eb for example is extremely powerful, and holds the position of Blackstaff. He had been captain of the Wardens. He was not Senior Council at that point, yet was much much more powerful than Harry is right now.
I seriously doubt he was even Morgan-level, given that Morgan was known to be one of, if not the most dangerous Wardens;
That could be the case, but neither of us knows.
and I absolutely believe that if Justin was trying to blast through Harry's shield then he would be one of the wizards who would exhaust themselves trying to break through.
Justin taught Harry his defensive magic, if anyone knew how to get around it, he would. Look at the Wards Harry used in his home. Elaine knew exactly how to get around them because he used the same ones he used as a teenager.
Finally, Harry has been proven to not always be a reliable source of information. Not only that but when he makes statements about what "Senior Council members can do", it's nonsense. He has not once squared off with someone on the Senior Council. He's barely even spoken to someone on the Council besides Eb who became a member in Summer Knight.
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Nadia, groinkick I think covers this pretty well.
Harry's whole assertion he is in the top forty wizards in terms of magical muscle (out of what, 5000 wizards?) has always been a bit arrogant. He barely has any idea of what the others are capable of. He doesn't go very regularly to Council meetings, and he has been asserting that statement since the beginning. Only recently has he even seen any of them in action. Jim also says that most Wizards, especially Senior Council types hide how much power they really have (I say types as there are quite a few wizards who are probably powerful enough and senior enough to be on the Senior Council, like Eb was, but aren't - take Klaus Schneider the Toymaker for instance).
But even if Harry was top-40, then Justin is would be top-15. We must also consider, Wizards get stronger as they age and as their knowledge increases and their technique gets refined their spells get much more energy efficient (see Luccio in battle). So Harry's knowledge about Senior Council level abilities is pretty small. We have had very few demonstrations of Senior Council magic, and all of them have been incredible. Well beyond anything Hannah Ascher ever did.
We know next to nothing about the actual duel, nothing about Justin's abilities (apart from that no one believe Harry could have beaten him and that he taught Harry most of his foundational magic). Justin would have watched Harry's method for both offensive and defensive magic. He would know his magical flaws, and his psychological ones. So even if Dresden got the jump on him, unless he took him out straight away, any extended duel would not have been in Harry's favor. Now perhaps Harry did have help, perhaps there were actors that assisted him unknowingly. I suppose it all depends on how you see the circumstances. If Justin intended to lose that duel for a greater victory, then probably the person helping Harry was Justin! But if Justin was taken by surprise (whether he improvised a solution to survive the outcome, or whether he was actually murdered) then perhaps there were other players. Elaine is a good one, though if she were trying to fight off an Enthrallment I find that difficult to believe. Outsiders, Circle/Black Council, some other player? Impossible to say without further information. Harry's magic being turbo-charged is interesting - though I am sure he would have noticed some extra power unless he was unleashing some special power of his own.
I even wonder if Harry's memories are accurate of the whole thing. That whole scene in Ghost Story with Leah where he relives the whole HWWBH experience is rather telling. And Jim enjoyed torturing us by giving us a whole bunch of new questions, and someone to answer them and have Harry ask some completely different ones. I wonder if someone has tampered with his memories of that fight.
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First he said "White Council".. Harry is White Council. Anyone considered a wizard is White Council.
Um, yes? I'm not sure what this has to do with anything.
Not only that but does he really know what a Senior Council member can do with fire magic? I don't think so. He's never fought a Senior member of the Council before. He's witnessed some of them using fire, but not in any kind of desperate situation where they were really unloading.
He has, however, seen Luccio use fire magic in a desperate situation, so he has an idea of what high-level fire magic looks like. He's also seen the Merlin use what Jim says is his most powerful skill, and heard about what he did with wards, so he knows approximately what level of ability is Senior Council-level. In addition, what he says is that Hannah's fire magic is something "he would barely have believed" from a Senior Council member, so even if he's underestimating what the Senior Council can do, there's still enough leeway to say that she's Senior Council-level with fire magic.
Pure speculation. We don't know what level he was at. Being on the Senior Council has a great deal to do with #1 power, #2. age. Eb for example is extremely powerful, and holds the position of Blackstaff. He had been captain of the Wardens. He was not Senior Council at that point, yet was much much more powerful than Harry is right now.
That could be the case, but neither of us knows.
I believe that Justin was not extraordinarily powerful for two reasons. The first is statistics: it is exceedingly unlikely that Justin was super-powerful, because only a small percentage of wizards can be super-powerful, and of them a percentage are given important and notable positions, which I think we can assume that Justin did not have, or LaFortier would definitely have brought it up when he was accusing Harry of murdering Justin in his sleep. The second reason is that if he were super-powerful, you'd expect someone to say something at some point. The subject has come up with wizards who could be expected to know, had no reason not to say so, and in one case had compelling reason to say so, and none of them did.
Justin taught Harry his defensive magic, if anyone knew how to get around it, he would. Look at the Wards Harry used in his home. Elaine knew exactly how to get around them because he used the same ones he used as a teenager.
You appear to be disregarding Lea. She convinced Harry that his magic was stronger, thereby making it stronger because Harry was more confident. She may also have taught him some magic/given him time to practice, considering that in Ghost Story Harry says that when he went to confront Justin, he had a new blasting rod and staff.
Finally, Harry has been proven to not always be a reliable source of information. Not only that but when he makes statements about what "Senior Council members can do", it's nonsense. He has not once squared off with someone on the Senior Council. He's barely even spoken to someone on the Council besides Eb who became a member in Summer Knight.
Okay, not being a reliable source of information does not mean that we get to disregard everything he says. Harry has plenty of ways to know how powerful a Senior Council-level wizard is: he's a wizard and can be expected to know about magic, he has Bob, and he lived with Ebenezer for two years, just to start.
Harry's whole assertion he is in the top forty wizards in terms of magical muscle (out of what, 5000 wizards?) has always been a bit arrogant. He barely has any idea of what the others are capable of. He doesn't go very regularly to Council meetings, and he has been asserting that statement since the beginning. Only recently has he even seen any of them in action.
He lived with Ebenezer for two years and has Bob. There is every reason to believe, therefore, that he is not just making up the power thing, and actually has evidence to support it. Also, Luccio agrees with him in Small Favor when they are talking about the power needed to contain the Archive, implying heavily that he is in the top of wizards' power range.
Jim also says that most Wizards, especially Senior Council types hide how much power they really have (I say types as there are quite a few wizards who are probably powerful enough and senior enough to be on the Senior Council, like Eb was, but aren't - take Klaus Schneider the Toymaker for instance).
I'm pretty sure what he actually said was that most wizards, especially Senior Council types, have "emergency power sources" like the deals that Harry has been offered, which they do not advertise.
But even if Harry was top-40, then Justin is would be top-15.
What? Where on Earth does this come from?
We have had very few demonstrations of Senior Council magic, and all of them have been incredible. Well beyond anything Hannah Ascher ever did.
Okay, no. You may think that they are less impressive, but Harry, who is not only a wizard but one with a lot of experience in magic, thinks otherwise. In this case, I'm going to say that the wizard probably knows more about how difficult magic is than we readers do.
Justin would have watched Harry's method for both offensive and defensive magic.
Nope. Harry says in Ghost Story that Justin did not teach Harry offensive magic.
He would know his magical flaws, and his psychological ones.
Which I have reason to believe Lea helped him with. At least, that's how I interpret her torturing him to give him more confidence--it certainly sounds like her getting rid of at least one of his most exploitable psychological/magical flaws.
So even if Dresden got the jump on him, unless he took him out straight away, any extended duel would not have been in Harry's favor.
If Justin were injured, possibly bleeding or something, and also hammering at Harry's unexpectedly-strong shield, I still believe that he would weaken enough faster than Dresden that Dresden would have a chance to get him (or get the house, since that burned down) with fire in the endgame of the fight.
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It has been speculated in previous threads that Harry had the relationship HWWB and Justin backwards. That is, Harry thought HWWB was summoned by Justin and under his control. But the flashback scene in Ghost Story does not support this. Some people think HWWB was calling the shots, and so may have decided to betray and sacrifice Justin.
I think Harry's memory of his fight with Justin is garbled and incomplete. Specifically, I think Justin tried to enthrall Harry, and partially succeeded. Harry is still suffering the effects of this, including anger management issues and memory problems.
I also think there was more than one fight between Harry and Justin. The first was the one described in Ghost Story, where Harry flees from Justin. He then met with the Leanansidhe, and spent some time with her. He returned to confront Justin and rescue Elaine. Justin defeated Harry in this second fight and took him prisoner. Justin tried to enthrall Harry with Elaine's help. Harry broke free, and in the third fight killed Justin.
The above is not described in the books, but I do think it may be what actually happened.
APG
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It is logical that Justin was stronger - he is older. Harry is 16, Justin may have been anywhere between 50 and 70 (remember, wizards age slow). Justin was a Wardern. Out of however many White Council wizards, there are only approximately (+/- 10%) 200 Wardens. Not a damn lot, which is why they would only choose the strongest, most skilled Wizards (assuming they have the talent for Evocations). The oldest Wardens are between 100 and 200 years old (if Luccio and Morgan are anything to go by; remember when it comes to Wizards age tends to denote seniority). So likely not many older than them. Justin as a senior Warden (trained by one of the strongest Wizards in the world, Simon Pietrovitch) is not going to be some slouch. If Harry is top-40 at 25 (!), even for a prodigy he still is not going to surpass everyone. Justin has had plenty of time to grow and get strong, magically speaking. So assuming Harry is stronger than 2/3 of the Wardens, there are still going to be a fair few stronger - the old guard. Of which Justin was likely one. So is Justin going to be number 200, or is he going to be somewhere near the top? I think it is pretty obvious.
Justin doesn't have to be super powerful to be more powerful than Harry. Now while several Wizards have commented on Harry's magical muscle (point of order: it would help if they mentioned how they calculated magical muscle), it especially looks good because he is so young. But despite all his muscle, he isn't good at using it. Especially in the earlier books, Harry mentions this several times. So at 16, he is going to have awful energy efficiency. Which compared to a highly trained wizard soldier/police, who has been around and gathering power for several decades (think of how much better Harry is at magical combat after only 2 decades) even a 16 year old prodigy with some help from Leah (which remember, was just Dumbo's feather) is going to be nowhere near Justin's power. Think Mayweather vs 16 year old. It isn't a contest, even if the kid is naturally talented.
Just because he lived with Eb does not mean he really understood what Eb's limits where - he was only just learning the basics then (the equivalent of completing his final years of highschool). He may have some understanding about magic limits in general, but time and time again he is astonished and surprised by some part of magic that he had no idea about or didn't believe was possible.
So, what JB actually said when discussing Senior Council power sources was that they each have hidden deals/power sources that they don't tell each other about. Which makes a lot of sense, considering they have had centuries to accumulate power. But they arn't just "in case of emergency". Harry being the White Knight doesn't just stop when he doesn't need it. The same would apply. Which is not to say they don't have hidden nukes for when the shit hits the fan, but JB was answering a question about hidden power sources.
What I think about Senior Council displays of magic is irrelevant; it is Harry who found them incredible. The Merlin and the Gatekeeper stopping an army of Outsiders and Ramps with a single ward was considered amazing. The Merlin communicating his battle plan and restoring order in a split second was considered exceptional. Ebenezar's entire list of achievements (Krakatoa, Tunguska, killing Ortega with a satellite etc not to mention with a word destroying the top of El Castille at Chichen Itza and wiping out those mercenaries). La Fortier (I think) using illusion magic on an entire nation (that one was from JB). Simon's Death Curse leveling the Red Court's army at Archangel. Listen's-to-Wind duel with the Shagnasty (and he could have gone harder). Hannah Ascher's most incredible piece of magic was protecting herself from Fire in the Underworld. Followed up by her blowtorch spell. Not exactly in the same league.
Well, even if Justin never taught Harry offensive magic, that would have made Harry even weaker. Perhaps Leah taught him a lesson or two, perhaps not. But he had literally never fought anyone with magic before. Strangely enough though, even if Harry says that he worked out how to fight HWWBH pretty quickly. Either way Harry was still in a load of trouble.
Lots of assumptions, not a lot of proof. We do not know how Harry and Justin dueled or if Justin would have even fought Harry and smashed at his shield. But if we follow your theory, Justin is injured by Harry's surprise attack. Why doesn't he use his Warden blade or shoot him or use a magical device on him? Why not control the fire himself? Justin was skilled enough to do such a thing (remember how he sets his hand ablaze) yet Harry's magic overwhelmed him? As I said before - if Justin wanted to win that duel, he should have. The only real possibility is that he never intended to win in the first place, with all the implications that come with that.
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Sorry to double post.
APG - really interesting, I had totally forgotten there was a third final duel after Harry was defeated in the second. Well that back my point up even bloody stronger - Harry didn't win even after being prepared. He lost and was captured. It was only after he somehow broke free and got the jump on Justin (and saved Bob) that he won. How very interesting. And yes, the Dark Ritual were Harry had to drink blood and was being Enthralled may have effected him permanently, whether he is aware of it is something else.
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I do think it's possible that Justin was betrayed, for a bunch of reasons. Mostly, I think what he did to Elaine and tried to do to Harry was extremely sloppy. It doesn't make a whole lot of sense to enthrall Elaine or Harry at all at that point. They were kids desperate for love and affection; Harry and Elaine, both of whom lived through The System and did not want to go back, would have likely already done pretty much whatever Justin wanted, short of murder. Getting them to that point would mostly be a matter of time and further manipulation—get the kids to do something violent for him, something small, and work your way up to it. In the end, you'd have a much more effective flunky if they can act on their own out of devotion rather than compulsion. I mean, there are chances for wizards to throw off mental control, even really, really effective mental attacks (for instance, Elaine in White Night throws off the Skavis's mental assault, albeit with a metaphorical slap across the face from Harry). Enthralling Harry and Elaine just doesn't make sense for the long term—and what the hell was up with the straitjacket? That's a total rookie move.
Anyway, that scene, as described in Ghost Story, makes me believe that Justin had to alter his plans because something happened (or was about to happen), and his timeline had to radically shift. For whatever reason, he absolutely had to have Harry and Elaine under tight control, now.
One possible explanation is that the White Court was gunning for Justin, which is where He Who Walks Behind came from, and he needed a pair of Starborn to handle him/her/it. Alternately, he was simply betrayed by another ally who was going to sell him out to the Council, and he had to go on the run. Alter-alternately, Justin just got impatient and lost a few dozen IQ points.
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Um, yes? I'm not sure what this has to do with anything.
Nearly all your argument? Warden's are a different level of wizard. They are feared amongst other wizards. Just because Harry can withstand a lot of wizards on the White Council (all wizards on Earth) doesn't mean he could wear down a warden who specializes in combat magic.
You yourself stated that Morgan was one of the most if not the most powerful Wardens, right? He didn't think Dresden could beat Justin. Wouldn't you say Morgan is an expert? Wouldn't he know? Or is he not very knowledgeable? He knew Justin's level of power, he's seen what Dresden could do... He made the assessment that Harry shouldn't have been able to win.
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Specifically, I think Justin tried to enthrall Harry, and partially succeeded. Harry is still suffering the effects of this, including anger management issues and memory problems.
I'd always assumed that the anger management issues were a result of breaking the Laws.
I also think there was more than one fight between Harry and Justin. The first was the one described in Ghost Story, where Harry flees from Justin. He then met with the Leanansidhe, and spent some time with her. He returned to confront Justin and rescue Elaine. Justin defeated Harry in this second fight and took him prisoner. Justin tried to enthrall Harry with Elaine's help. Harry broke free, and in the third fight killed Justin.
The above is not described in the books, but I do think it may be what actually happened.
This makes sense.
It is logical that Justin was stronger - he is older. Harry is 16, Justin may have been anywhere between 50 and 70 (remember, wizards age slow). Justin was a Wardern. Out of however many White Council wizards, there are only approximately (+/- 10%) 200 Wardens. Not a damn lot, which is why they would only choose the strongest, most skilled Wizards (assuming they have the talent for Evocations). The oldest Wardens are between 100 and 200 years old (if Luccio and Morgan are anything to go by; remember when it comes to Wizards age tends to denote seniority). So likely not many older than them. Justin as a senior Warden (trained by one of the strongest Wizards in the world, Simon Pietrovitch) is not going to be some slouch. If Harry is top-40 at 25 (!), even for a prodigy he still is not going to surpass everyone. Justin has had plenty of time to grow and get strong, magically speaking. So assuming Harry is stronger than 2/3 of the Wardens, there are still going to be a fair few stronger - the old guard. Of which Justin was likely one. So is Justin going to be number 200, or is he going to be somewhere near the top? I think it is pretty obvious.
Justin doesn't have to be super powerful to be more powerful than Harry. Now while several Wizards have commented on Harry's magical muscle (point of order: it would help if they mentioned how they calculated magical muscle), it especially looks good because he is so young.
Okay, there seems to be some confusion here. I'm talking about raw magical muscle when I talk about Justin not being super-powerful. We have WoJ that wizards don't gain raw magical muscle as they age (actually, we have WoJ that Harry hasn't, and I feel it's safe to extrapolate), they just get better at using what they have. I absolutely agree that Justin would be far more skilled than Harry--that is why I brought up what Harry said about using raw power to counter skill.
Also, we know that the Wardens don't select people based on raw magical power, because we have a WoJ that Molly would be a good Warden.
But despite all his muscle, he isn't good at using it. Especially in the earlier books, Harry mentions this several times. So at 16, he is going to have awful energy efficiency. Which compared to a highly trained wizard soldier/police, who has been around and gathering power for several decades (think of how much better Harry is at magical combat after only 2 decades) even a 16 year old prodigy with some help from Leah (which remember, was just Dumbo's feather) is going to be nowhere near Justin's power.
Justin also would have gone into that battle the way Harry goes into a lot of fights--tired, probably hurt, having used his magic for a bunch of things already. And what Lea's training has to have done is enhance Harry's ability to deal with being in that state--she did spend days at least torturing him.
Think of it in terms of Harry's fight with Victor Sells. We have WoJ that Harry's skill compared to Victor's lack thereof means that if they're both going into the fight on equal terms then Harry wins that fight 19 times out of 20. But in the book, Harry nearly loses, because of the circumstances he finds himself in. The only way he wins is by being smart and taking advantage of his opponent's screw up.
Compare that to the fight between Harry and Justin Dumorne (fight 3): Dumorne has just gotten attacked by Harry, and may have gotten hurt. Instead of resting, he almost certainly moved straight into setting up the ritual to enthrall Harry. Then he gets jumped unexpectedly by Harry and maybe gets hurt again. That's the state he's in when the fight begins. Harry, on the other hand, may be tired from the last fight with Justin by may have some time to recover (he was either knocked out or tied up, rather than running around trying to prepare a ritual), but he's probably not hurt, because Justin still wants to use him and would therefore try to avoid damaging him. He's also gotten the drop on Justin, maybe hurt him, and we know he's still thinking because that was how he managed to escape Elaine's binding spell. Even if he is hurt/tired, he's going to be coping with that better than Justin expects him to. Given all of that, I don't find it remarkably unbelievable that Harry won that fight.
Just because he lived with Eb does not mean he really understood what Eb's limits where - he was only just learning the basics then (the equivalent of completing his final years of highschool).
It means he had extended exposure to someone who is Senior Council-level. It might not have taught him specifics, but it should have let him get a sense of power levels.
So, what JB actually said when discussing Senior Council power sources was that they each have hidden deals/power sources that they don't tell each other about. Which makes a lot of sense, considering they have had centuries to accumulate power. But they arn't just "in case of emergency". Harry being the White Knight doesn't just stop when he doesn't need it. The same would apply. Which is not to say they don't have hidden nukes for when the shit hits the fan, but JB was answering a question about hidden power sources.
Fair enough.
What I think about Senior Council displays of magic is irrelevant; it is Harry who found them incredible. The Merlin and the Gatekeeper stopping an army of Outsiders and Ramps with a single ward was considered amazing. The Merlin communicating his battle plan and restoring order in a split second was considered exceptional. Ebenezar's entire list of achievements (Krakatoa, Tunguska, killing Ortega with a satellite etc not to mention with a word destroying the top of El Castille at Chichen Itza and wiping out those mercenaries). La Fortier (I think) using illusion magic on an entire nation (that one was from JB). Simon's Death Curse leveling the Red Court's army at Archangel. Listen's-to-Wind duel with the Shagnasty (and he could have gone harder). Hannah Ascher's most incredible piece of magic was protecting herself from Fire in the Underworld. Followed up by her blowtorch spell. Not exactly in the same league.
See, this is the problem. You say that what you think about displays of magic is irrelevant compared to what Harry thinks, but then the minute Harry disagrees with you you turn around and say "no, actually he's wrong." Harry did find the Senior Council's displays of power incredible; he also found Hannah's fire magic incredible, and classed it in the same league. That you don't find it as impressive is irrelevant.
But if we follow your theory, Justin is injured by Harry's surprise attack. Why doesn't he use his Warden blade or shoot him or use a magical device on him?
Because he didn't have them with him, probably. We've seen Harry preparing for ritual magic, and doing magic in his lab. He doesn't keep his weapons on hand for either of these things. I feel that it's fair to assume that Justin wouldn't, either. Remember, he's got Elaine restraining Harry at this point.
Why not control the fire himself? Justin was skilled enough to do such a thing (remember how he sets his hand ablaze) yet Harry's magic overwhelmed him?
Because it's harder controlling outside fire than the fire you conjure yourself. Remember, we've seen Harry hold fire in his hand as well, but he still says that he can't control outside fire like Hannah did.
As I said before - if Justin wanted to win that duel, he should have. The only real possibility is that he never intended to win in the first place, with all the implications that come with that.
No, it isn't the only real possibility. Even if you discount everything I've said, Jim has said repeatedly that there is an element of chance in fights. He's said that it is technically possible for Harry to beat the Merlin, it's just not likely. He's said that it is technically possible for Harry to beat Mab, it's just not likely. None of my arguments are needed to establish the possibility of Harry winning his fight with Justin. That possibility is built into the world that Jim created. All my arguments do is shift the odds.
Anyway, that scene, as described in Ghost Story, makes me believe that Justin had to alter his plans because something happened (or was about to happen), and his timeline had to radically shift. For whatever reason, he absolutely had to have Harry and Elaine under tight control, now.
This makes a lot of sense.
Nearly all your argument? Warden's are a different level of wizard. They are feared amongst other wizards. Just because Harry can withstand a lot of wizards on the White Council (all wizards on Earth) doesn't mean he could wear down a warden who specializes in combat magic.
Okay. I'd just assumed that he was talking about combat-capable wizards, which would include wardens. It wouldn't make much sense for him to say "I can win a fight against all the wizards who don't know how to fight," after all.
You yourself stated that Morgan was one of the most if not the most powerful Wardens, right? He didn't think Dresden could beat Justin. Wouldn't you say Morgan is an expert? Wouldn't he know? Or is he not very knowledgeable? He knew Justin's level of power, he's seen what Dresden could do... He made the assessment that Harry shouldn't have been able to win.
No, in this case I would not consider Morgan an expert. His judgement is clearly flawed when it comes to Harry in the early books (which I assume is when he says that Dresden couldn't beat Justin. I don't remember that bit. Would you mind providing quotes?). Morgan does not believe that Justin was a warlock at this point. He believes that Harry is a warlock and a murderer. When trying to decide if Harry could have beaten Justin in a fight vs would he have had to murder Justin in his sleep, Morgan is extremely biased and his judgment should not be trusted.
(If Morgan says that Harry could not beat Justin at some point after Dead Beat, I will retract my statements here. But I don't believe he does so.)
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Anyway, that scene, as described in Ghost Story, makes me believe that Justin had to alter his plans because something happened (or was about to happen), and his timeline had to radically shift. For whatever reason, he absolutely had to have Harry and Elaine under tight control, now.
Another possibility is that Justin wasn't entirely bad. He was an "end justifies the means" kind of guy fighting against the Outsiders. He was training two Starborn to assist in that battle. The enthrallment could have been a method that Justin and his associates (including Harry's mother) had designed to test whether a person has been nemfected (and perhaps free them if they have been). Justin discovered evidence that an Outsider (HWWB) was in the area and needed to make sure that Elaine and Harry were free from influence. When Harry ran away, Justin had to assume Harry was either already compromised or would be soon.
This would mean HWWB wasn't actually sent by Justin to kill Harry. HWWB was Justin's enemy and was trying to trick Harry into killing Justin.
In sum, this theory would mean Justin was a misguided good guy, the kind that would use a darkhallow to save a little girl from Red Court vampires, the kind that Harry almost became. Of course, that would mean Justin probably isn't Cowl, unless there is some really twisty reason a misguided good guy would give a nemfected Athame to Leah.
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Of course, that would mean Justin probably isn't Cowl, unless there is some really twisty reason a misguided good guy would give a nemfected Athame to Leah.
Because he didn't know it was nemfected, and wanted to give a powerful weapon to someone highly placed on the anti-Outsider team.
(Note that I don't actually think Justin is Cowl, but for completely different reasons--I feel that it would undermine large parts of Harry's character, as well as messing up the black magic thing that the books have been dealing with.)
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At the end of the day we have a 16 year old, Harry, vs a battle hardened Warden who taught Dresden everything he knew. I just find it unrealistic for Harry to have won.
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Another possibility is that Justin wasn't entirely bad. He was an "end justifies the means" kind of guy fighting against the Outsiders. He was training two Starborn to assist in that battle. The enthrallment could have been a method that Justin and his associates (including Harry's mother) had designed to test whether a person has been nemfected (and perhaps free them if they have been). Justin discovered evidence that an Outsider (HWWB) was in the area and needed to make sure that Elaine and Harry were free from influence. When Harry ran away, Justin had to assume Harry was either already compromised or would be soon.
This would mean HWWB wasn't actually sent by Justin to kill Harry. HWWB was Justin's enemy and was trying to trick Harry into killing Justin.
In sum, this theory would mean Justin was a misguided good guy, the kind that would use a darkhallow to save a little girl from Red Court vampires, the kind that Harry almost became. Of course, that would mean Justin probably isn't Cowl, unless there is some really twisty reason a misguided good guy would give a nemfected Athame to Leah.
Yeah, I've seen that brought up before, and it's possible, but I don't think it very likely. Not sure how enthralling someone would test them for Nemesis infection, and even if it was, it should've been something done way earlier; Harry and Elaine had lived with Justin for... what, six years? Infection should have been obvious by then, or they would've otherwise been tested thoroughly within a few months of adoption, at the latest. I don't see any way around Justin enthralling Elaine and Harry that doesn't involve nefarious motivation, even accounting for brutal, "do whatever it takes" ways of thinking. What purpose does bending them to his will serve?
Personally, I think Justin saw what was coming from the Outsiders, and wanted some Starborn around him before the coming Apocalypse. I think we'll find out more about him specifically during the lead-up (and probably during) the BAT.
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Infection should have been obvious by then,
Unless it was a recent infection. When Harry ran away, HWWB found him very quickly. What if Justin learned HWWB was in the area and then found out Elaine had skipped school and was acting strangely? Justin concludes her strange behavior is the result of infection (and he could be right) and conducts an enthrallment ritual to cleanse her. In GS, Harry and Molly have practice mind-wars to train in mental defense magic. It follows that Nemesis infection, which seems very similar to a form of enthrallment, might be countered by actual enthrallment magic.
When Harry gets home, Justin wants to test him too. Again, because Justin recently learned that an Outsider recently arrived in the area. When Harry runs away, that confirms (in Justin's mind) that Harry must have been recently infected. When Harry comes back, Justin tries to cleanse him. When Harry fights off the enthrallment, Justin decides to open a gate to the NN, push Elaine through where he knows someone from Summer will be there to help her, and then either died before he could escape himself or took advantage of Harry's attack to commit non-permanent suicide.
I can think of several reasons why Justin decided to let Harry win after Harry resisted. First, Harry resisting the enthrallment proved he wasn't infected. Thus, Justin knew Harry was an innocent and didn't want to kill him but lacked the energy to incapacitate him again without hurting Harry. Second, with the house burning down and the heavy use of magic, Justin knew he wouldn't be able to subdue Harry, enthrall him to cleanse him and then hide Elaine and Harry without the White Council finding out. Or third, Justin was surprised by the display of power from Harry and was concerned Harry's new power might be from a deal with Outsiders. Thus, Justin couldn't be certain he could defeat Harry and focused his efforts on saving Elaine.
How would enthralling someone test them for Nemesis? In GS, we learn that Harry has been training Molly in mind magic in unsanctioned ways to defend against mental invasion magic. The way Nemfection works seems highly related to enthrallment, so it seems likely that enthrallment magic would be the most effective way to discover or reverse Nemfection.
If the above is true, then why did Justin wait so long? Well, enthrallment magic isn't benign and likely has the potential for permanent damage. Perhaps it is worse on young people so Justin wanted to avoid it as long as possible. Maybe Justin didn't ask Elaine to stay home from school. Maybe she did that on her own. Justin found the behavior suspicious and having also seen evidence there were Outsiders in the area, had reason to believe (perhaps correctly) that Elaine had been recently infected. When Justin tried to explain, Harry ran away instead of listening. When Harry came back, Justin thought that Harry had also been infected and tried to enthrall/cleanse Harry. When Harry resisted the enthrallment, maybe that was sufficient proof he wasn't infected. Having discovered Harry wasn't infected, Justin didn't want to kill him, but as Harry provided no opportunity to explain, the best Justin could do is push Elaine into the NN where he knew someone from Summer would be waiting to help her and then took advantage of Harry's attack to commit non-permanent suicide.
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At the end of the day we have a 16 year old, Harry, vs a battle hardened Warden who taught Dresden everything he knew. I just find it unrealistic for Harry to have won.
I get that. I just find it more unlikely that Justin let Harry kill him, given that if he's a good guy he should know that Harry then stands a good chance of being killed anyway when the White Council gets ahold of him, and if he's a bad guy I can't think of any reason for him to do so (rather than avoid the fight in the first place by not enthralling his apprentices).
(Unless the claim is that Kemmler took over Justin's body, in which case I can accept that the original!Justin or remnants of him interfered with Kemmler!Justin's attempt to kill Harry, allowing Harry to prevail.)
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At the end of the day we have a 16 year old, Harry, vs a battle hardened Warden who taught Dresden everything he knew. I just find it unrealistic for Harry to have won.
No more than a youngish Harry beating a fae Queen or an older Harry finding a way to take out a Vampire pantheon.
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I'm posting this because it's just occurred to me that I've been arguing against someone helping Harry to defeat Justin without actually stating my reason for holding that position.
My reasoning is this: I believe that certain things about that confrontation have to be true in order to support the narrative structure that has been built around them (that is, Harry's character development and the ethical questions that relate to the confrontation).
These are:
1) That Harry's mentor turned bad, was always bad, or at the least was doing something extremely bad.
2) That Harry realized this and fought him.
3) That Harry claimed victory in this fight.
4) That Harry's victory came at the cost of doing something unequivocally bad himself, namely that he broke the First Law.
I feel that if any of these points are demonstrated not to be true, then it will almost certainly come across as bad writing, and since Jim is a very good writer, he will not try to falsify any of these points.
Thus, the reason I object to someone helping Harry defeat Justin is because it would invalidate point 3--if someone helped him in the way that the poster(s) here have been implying, I feel that it would not be Harry's victory. It's not a problem that HWWB was manipulating him into being more willing to kill, or that Lea helped Harry, because in the end it was still Harry's victory. Likewise, I proposed the idea that (if Kemmler had taken over Justin, which I don't believe) original!Justin may have interfered with Kemmler!Justin, because Harry is still essential to that victory--original!Justin might be able to slow Kemmler!Justin down and make him hesitate, but he cannot stop him. I do object to theories that claim that Justin set the whole thing up and let him win, because it clearly subverts point 3, and may subvert points 1, 2, and 4, depending on what variation is proposed.
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Unless it was a recent infection. When Harry ran away, HWWB found him very quickly. What if Justin learned HWWB was in the area and then found out Elaine had skipped school and was acting strangely? Justin concludes her strange behavior is the result of infection (and he could be right) and conducts an enthrallment ritual to cleanse her. In GS, Harry and Molly have practice mind-wars to train in mental defense magic. It follows that Nemesis infection, which seems very similar to a form of enthrallment, might be countered by actual enthrallment magic.
When Harry gets home, Justin wants to test him too. Again, because Justin recently learned that an Outsider recently arrived in the area. When Harry runs away, that confirms (in Justin's mind) that Harry must have been recently infected. When Harry comes back, Justin tries to cleanse him. When Harry fights off the enthrallment, Justin decides to open a gate to the NN, push Elaine through where he knows someone from Summer will be there to help her, and then either died before he could escape himself or took advantage of Harry's attack to commit non-permanent suicide.
I can think of several reasons why Justin decided to let Harry win after Harry resisted. First, Harry resisting the enthrallment proved he wasn't infected. Thus, Justin knew Harry was an innocent and didn't want to kill him but lacked the energy to incapacitate him again without hurting Harry. Second, with the house burning down and the heavy use of magic, Justin knew he wouldn't be able to subdue Harry, enthrall him to cleanse him and then hide Elaine and Harry without the White Council finding out. Or third, Justin was surprised by the display of power from Harry and was concerned Harry's new power might be from a deal with Outsiders. Thus, Justin couldn't be certain he could defeat Harry and focused his efforts on saving Elaine.
How would enthralling someone test them for Nemesis? In GS, we learn that Harry has been training Molly in mind magic in unsanctioned ways to defend against mental invasion magic. The way Nemfection works seems highly related to enthrallment, so it seems likely that enthrallment magic would be the most effective way to discover or reverse Nemfection.
If the above is true, then why did Justin wait so long? Well, enthrallment magic isn't benign and likely has the potential for permanent damage. Perhaps it is worse on young people so Justin wanted to avoid it as long as possible. Maybe Justin didn't ask Elaine to stay home from school. Maybe she did that on her own. Justin found the behavior suspicious and having also seen evidence there were Outsiders in the area, had reason to believe (perhaps correctly) that Elaine had been recently infected. When Justin tried to explain, Harry ran away instead of listening. When Harry came back, Justin thought that Harry had also been infected and tried to enthrall/cleanse Harry. When Harry resisted the enthrallment, maybe that was sufficient proof he wasn't infected. Having discovered Harry wasn't infected, Justin didn't want to kill him, but as Harry provided no opportunity to explain, the best Justin could do is push Elaine into the NN where he knew someone from Summer would be waiting to help her and then took advantage of Harry's attack to commit non-permanent suicide.
, enthrallment could potentially be a means of The process of invading someone's min
I can see your point, but I disagree. To me, Nemesis infection seems a lot more like Assimilation than enthrallment. It's like the Borg. Or maybe a Denarian-type thing, wherein the Fallen overrides the bearer's consciousness and seizes the reins. The infection itself seems to have consciousness (at least, Harry spoke to it through Sith), so maybe it's closer to a Denarian Shadow, only significantly more juiced up; it seems to be able to rewrite the core of a person, to the point that they can break their own rules (Maeve can lie, Sith disobeys Mab's will, etc.) and outright possess them when the chips are down, so I don't see how that could be fixed by turning that person into a thrall. Aside from all of that, mortal magic slides right off Outsiders, so I doubt that a mortal enthralling another mortal would have any noticeable effect on someone who's infected—the only time we've seen mortal magic hit an Outsider is performed by Harry. And it took Mab years to cleanse Lea, and she wasn't able to help Maeve at all; it's doubtful Justin could've done much of anything.
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I think it is strongly hinted in Ghost Story by Lea to Harry just before his flashback I believe that
Justin was double crossed...
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No more than a youngish Harry beating a fae Queen or an older Harry finding a way to take out a Vampire pantheon.
Funny that you would use these two as examples when he had a great deal of help :)
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I think it is strongly hinted in Ghost Story by Lea to Harry just before his flashback I believe that
Justin was double crossed...
I don't have the book handy, could you quote what she said please?
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Funny that you would use these two as examples when he had a great deal of help :)
Yep, he had help. He usually does at some point. But, there is often point where it is all Harry.
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I don't have the book handy, could you quote what she said please?
I don't know about Lea, but it comes up in a discussion that Harry is having with Bob when he visits him in the skull. Harry realizes that rather than HWWB being controlled by Justin it might have been the other way, and that HWWB may have back stabbed Justin. My Kindle ver has it as page 375.
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Just to add to the evidence bin:
For scope of raw, magical muscle (assumed to be ultimate potential), we have Sue. Luccio, head of the Wardens, attested to the sheer magical horsepower of what was accomplished, to be terrifying. I don't have my books with me but I'm pretty certain she was certain that few if any other wizards could have pulled that off. Yes, special night and whatnot but it was still apparently epic. I believe Harry described it like lifting an engine block - nothing fancy just a tremendous amount of work/exertion.
For Harry's magical muscle/potential, we also have the opinions of tons of people that seem to hold Harry as "exceptional" - all of the necromancers thought he had tremendous potential as a student as well as evil Bob (something like "oh the master would have favored you"). Cowl. Grevane. etc.
Heck, Nicodemus thinks he has tremendous potential. Most of the Senior Council including the Gatekeeper think he's exceedingly dangerous even to them. Is he there today? No. He is 40 years old or so and they are a few hundred... But someone who can magically bench 800 lbs... even without skill... if they get lucky, can mess you up.
On a side note, I'd totally agree that HWWB probably double-crossed Justin and that's how it happened. But just wanted to add two bits regarding that I don't see Harry being arrogant regarding his raw power - actually the opposite. I think he's being overly humble but recognizes at the same time that his power doesn't amount to much compared to a few hundred years of skill refinement.
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I can see your point, but I disagree. To me, Nemesis infection seems a lot more like Assimilation than enthrallment. It's like the Borg. Or maybe a Denarian-type thing, wherein the Fallen overrides the bearer's consciousness and seizes the reins. The infection itself seems to have consciousness (at least, Harry spoke to it through Sith), so maybe it's closer to a Denarian Shadow, only significantly more juiced up; it seems to be able to rewrite the core of a person, to the point that they can break their own rules (Maeve can lie, Sith disobeys Mab's will, etc.) and outright possess them when the chips are down, so I don't see how that could be fixed by turning that person into a thrall. Aside from all of that, mortal magic slides right off Outsiders, so I doubt that a mortal enthralling another mortal would have any noticeable effect on someone who's infected—the only time we've seen mortal magic hit an Outsider is performed by Harry. And it took Mab years to cleanse Lea, and she wasn't able to help Maeve at all; it's doubtful Justin could've done much of anything.
The fact that Nemesis can change an entity's mind is precisely why enthrallment, which requires changing a person's mind, would be a logical counter. And it might not specifically be enthrallment, it could be something that looks like enthrallment or something that requires enthrallment before it can be safely performed. Regardless of the specifics of the method, it makes sense that some kind of mind-magic that skirts the lines of the laws would be a solution to the mind-invasion by Nemesis. Since it requires violation of the laws, it literally can't be performed by Mab and wouldn't be discovered by the White Council. Also, Outsider resistance is a non-issue because you aren't hitting Nemesis with magic, you are using magic on the victim in a way that makes the host unsuitable.