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The Dresden Files => DF Spoilers => Topic started by: ZhonLord on February 27, 2021, 10:44:15 AM
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Which of the two extremely knowledgeable beings Harry has influence with, do you guys think is more likely to know a cure for Thomas's vampirism (or at least getting his Hunger to back off and restore the guy's sanity/soul)?
On the one hand you have Lheanadsidhe, Harry's Godmother who's still got obligations from Margaret to look after him. She suppressed the Hungers of Susan and Martin back during Changes, allowing them to rest and be genuinely human for a time, so she knows at least SOME weakness in the Hunger that a Winter being can exploit. Might well be the key if she can be persuaded to bargain with it.
On the other hand you have Bonnie, a very young spirit of knowledge who contains more information in one eye socket than Bob's ever known. The combined memories and knowledge of Harry Dresden, the most active and deep-reaching wizard in generations, combined with at least a fragment of a Fallen Angel - possibly all the things she knew at the time of imprinting on Harry. SOMETHING in that wooden skull of hers has to be helpful right?
What are your guys' thoughts?
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Mab, for Thomas will become the new Winter Knight when Harry loses it
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Harry is notoriously poorly trained for a wizard, What Bonea got from him was a lot of geek and pop culture. Lea’s Sidhe, she gives nothing away for free. Now if Thomas had something to trade, like a child that would be another matter.
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Harry is notoriously poorly trained for a wizard, What Bonea got from him was a lot of geek and pop culture. Lea’s Sidhe, she gives nothing away for free. Now if Thomas had something to trade, like a child that would be another matter.
I doubt that Lea could heal him anyway, what she did for Susan was temporary if I remember correctly because Harry got all excited when she did it, and asked her about it.
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I doubt that Lea could heal him anyway, what she did for Susan was temporary if I remember correctly because Harry got all excited when she did it, and asked her about it.
True, it was temporary, but perhaps all Thomas needs is temporary relief from his Hunger so he can build up enough strength to feed it normally again. If so then he'll back to being a "normal" White Court vampire instead of one in a death spiral.
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Harry is notoriously poorly trained for a wizard, What Bonea got from him was a lot of geek and pop culture. Lea’s Sidhe, she gives nothing away for free. Now if Thomas had something to trade, like a child that would be another matter.
First I disagree with Harry bein poorly trained. He's a very capable wizard, it's just he lacks some of the finesse required for some magic, but the raw knowledge is there. He's also distracted for some reason. Like his mind picks up on things that he doesn't seem to notice... The woman who had a Coin for example.
I think that in Mirror Mirror we're going to see a Dresen who really unleashes his inner self. The self that craves power, and willing to obtain it... Get a real idea of how bad ass of a Wizard he really can be.
Anyways it's not Harry who's super important for Bonea, it's the Fallen who provided all that knowledge.
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Mab, for Thomas will become the new Winter Knight when Harry loses it
Only thing I see working is the Holy Saber.. It can kill the demon without harming the mortal. Also I don't think Thomas becomes a Winter Knight. Either a KOTC, or Summer Knight which could could create some problems for Dresden as Winter Knight
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DuMorne was only interested in using Harry as a weapon, Ebenezer in seeing that Harry wasn’t another Warlock. One of the charges levelled against Harry by the White Council was the unconventional nature of his apprenticeship and assumption of Wizard status. Harry admits himself in BG Carlos is much more technically accomplished than him, but Carlos had a longer and presumably more thorough apprenticeship.
Therefore the facts would appear to show Harry is indeed notoriously poorly trained for a Wizard, but a Wizard isn’t his only role, he is a Starborn, and I suspect there is no training for that. He is the Warden of Demonreach and there is no one to teach him that other than Alfred, and he seems to have learnt all about Demonreach and it’s capabilities and he did just solo a Titan so his training there looked complete. He is also a PI, and Nick Angel appears to have done a great job there, and as a father, well Harry is still learning, but his tutor is Michael Carpenter so he is learning from the best.
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Fidelacchius. Butters hit Sanya with the sword and it did nothing. Then there was a long-winded explanation of how it is more effective against the supernatural. The sword can kill Thomas' demon and not Thomas.
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Therefore the facts would appear to show Harry is indeed notoriously poorly trained for a Wizard
Poorly trained for what? What exactly is important in a wizards training?
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Poorly trained for what? What exactly is important in a wizards training?
Knowledge, particularly knowledge of spells and potions as well as what is effective vs ineffective against various supernatural beings. And in that regard, Harry had one of the best teachers of all.
Bob taught him the spells to enforce his duster, the spells he uses in investigation, ALL the potions he's ever used, every bit of supernatural knowledge and lore, etc. etc. And everything Harry ever learned from Bob was for a practical purpose in one form or another, which means he learned it well and it stuck with him because he had uses for each and every bit of knowledge.
It's true that by the standards of other Wizards Harry is very lacking in overall wizardly knowledge. But he has cherry-picked the most useful pieces and made them his own thanks to an extremely helpful skull. He is NOT poorly trained as a wizard any more.
I doubt that Lea could heal him anyway, what she did for Susan was temporary if I remember correctly because Harry got all excited when she did it, and asked her about it.
Lea said that she put their Hungers to sleep, in response to his question. she didn't explain how she did so or what her magic targeted in order to accomplish that. Harry WOULD have to offer something in return for the knowledge, but it would be a better starting point than his current start of "zippedy doo da".
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My vote is on the whosit in the cell teaching Thomas how to silence his demon. I also suspect that Margaret knew how and it was that knowledge that made her curse work
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Lea said that she put their Hungers to sleep, in response to his question. she didn't explain how she did so or what her magic targeted in order to accomplish that. Harry WOULD have to offer something in return for the knowledge, but it would be a better starting point than his current start of "zippedy doo da".
It wasn't zippedy doo da on Harry's part, if you'll remember he drove himself into exhaustion and clinical depression trying to find a cure for Susan. He also drove Bob crazy trying to find a cure, so if Lea could have provided one, he would have traded his soul for it in my opinion. Harry was shocked that Lea could do it if I remember correctly but I also seem to remember her saying it wasn't a cure. Also you are dealing with two different things, in the case of Thomas, the possession of an actual demon, in the case of Susan it was more of an infection.
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Lea offered to show him how she did it. Harry turned her down:
“I lulled their predator spirit to sleep,” she said calmly. “Poor lambs. They didn’t realize how much strength they drew from it. Mayhap this will prove a useful lesson.”
I frowned at that. “You mean . . . the vampire part of them?”
“Of course.”
I sat there for a moment, stunned. If the vampire infection within half vampires like Susan and Martin could be enchanted to sleep, then it was presumably possible to do other things to it as well. Suppress it, maybe permanently.
It might even be possible to destroy it.
I felt a door in my mind open upon a hope I had shut away a long time ago.
Maybe I could save them both.
“I . . .” I shook my head. “I searched for a way to . . . I spent more than a . . .”
I shook my head harder. “I spent more than a year trying to find a way to . . .” I looked at my godmother. “How? How did you do it?”
She looked back at me, her lips curled into something that wasn’t precisely a smile. “Oh, sweet child. Information of that sort is treasure indeed. What have you to trade for such a precious gem of knowledge?”
I clenched my teeth. “It’s always about bargains with you, isn’t it.”
“Of course, child. But I always live up to my end. Hence, my protection of you.”
“Protection?” I demanded. “You spent most of a couple of decades trying to turn me into a dog!”
“Only when you strayed out of the mortal world,” she said, as if baffled at why I would be upset. “Child, we had a bargain. And you had not willingly provided your portion of it.” She smiled widely at Mouse. “And dogs are so charming.”
Mouse watched her with calm, wary eyes, his body motionless. I frowned. “But . . . you sold my debt to Mab.”
“Precisely. At an excellent price, I might add. So now, all that remains twixt thou and I is your mother’s bargain. Unless you would prefer to enter another compact, of course . . .”
I shuddered. “No, thank you.”
Butcher, Jim. Changes (The Dresden Files, Book 12) (pp. 135-136). Penguin Publishing Group. Kindle Edition.
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Lea offered to show him how she did it. Harry turned her down:
Ah, but here in lies the rub, showing him how she did it, doesn't mean it would be or could be a cure.
That is why one doesn't bargain with the Fae.. No, she isn't lying exactly but at the same time she isn't telling him everything. So Harry sells his soul to her, she shows him how to do it, but it only lasts for an hour or two.. Then things go back to what they were.. Lea has his soul, but Harry has nothing all that useful.
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Ah, but here in lies the rub, showing him how she did it, doesn't mean it would be or could be a cure.
No, but it may have led to one, per the text.
So Harry sells his soul to her, she shows him how to do it, but it only lasts for an hour or two.. Then things go back to what they were.. Lea has his soul, but Harry has nothing all that useful.
None of that is in the text.
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Ah, but here in lies the rub, showing him how she did it, doesn't mean it would be or could be a cure.
That is why one doesn't bargain with the Fae.. No, she isn't lying exactly but at the same time she isn't telling him everything. So Harry sells his soul to her, she shows him how to do it, but it only lasts for an hour or two.. Then things go back to what they were.. Lea has his soul, but Harry has nothing all that useful.
Also at that point it was useless. Susan needed the strength to resque the child and nogotiating for something that could only be usefull afterwards was rather pointless.
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It wasn't zippedy doo da on Harry's part, if you'll remember he drove himself into exhaustion and clinical depression trying to find a cure for Susan. He also drove Bob crazy trying to find a cure...
Clarification: He has no answers, no clues, not even a starting point after all that work. He's got a big fat zippo at the moment. That's what I meant by "zippidy doo da", Lea's info would be a far better starting point than the Nothing he has now.
...so if Lea could have provided one, he would have traded his soul for it in my opinion.Harry was shocked that Lea could do it if I remember correctly but I also seem to remember her saying it wasn't a cure. Also you are dealing with two different things, in the case of Thomas, the possession of an actual demon, in the case of Susan it was more of an infection.
She never asked his soul for the info. She asked him what he would be willing to offer in return, in a pretty standard Fae bargain.
Lea offered to show him how she did it. Harry turned her down:
Thank you for posting that part of the book. I will also point out that this offer of the bargain happened before Harry became the Winter Knight, and spent a far greater amount of time among the Fae. He could probably make a damn good bargain with the experience and training he's had since that point in the series.
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Nothing he has now.She never asked his soul for the info. She asked him what he would be willing to offer in return, in a pretty standard Fae bargain..
I did not take that literally. Mab did not ask for his literally soul either.
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I don't think Thomas becomes a Winter Knight. Either a KOTC, or Summer Knight which could could create some problems for Dresden as Winter Knight
I could see Thomas becoming Summer Knight and that creating problems for Summer and Winter, who would then cause problems for Harry and Thomas, who would then cause problems for Summer and Winter ad infinitum.
On Harry's level of training/experience/competence or what have you, I'd say it's more a difference in emphasis than degree. As pointed out Harry's got/had Bob. This probably gave him information that most wizards don't have easy access to. He was trained in surprise close range magic combat without any focus items (blasting rod, etc.) by Mab. He's directly, deeply, and studiously examined Merlin's handy work. He's had lessons from a fallen angel.
But we also know that Harry is missing a lot of apprentice time. He was the youngest wizard for years. Eb barely taught him any magic. Harry had, at most, an eight year apprenticeship. (I think Justin took him in when he was 10. Eb taught him until he was 18). More reasonably 6 years. I'm guessing most wizard apprenticeships last into at least someone's mid-20's. We know he wasn't taught certain things that are traditionally taught. Carlos talks about how "Old Ones" are "the last thing a formally trained apprentice learns about." He mentions that Harry's training wasn't formal.
Side note. Carlos says Old Ones are Outsiders that are inside, but inactive. ("caged, bound, and sleeping").
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Yet another reason for Thomas to become the Winter Knight. He is already fighting those that are on the outside and those that are on the inside trying to bring those on the outside in. He would be in a good spot to keep fighting the oblivion war.
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But we also know that Harry is missing a lot of apprentice time. He was the youngest wizard for years. Eb barely taught him any magic. Harry had, at most, an eight year apprenticeship. (I think Justin took him in when he was 10. Eb taught him until he was 18). More reasonably 6 years. I'm guessing most wizard apprenticeships last into at least someone's mid-20's. We know he wasn't taught certain things that are traditionally taught. Carlos talks about how "Old Ones" are "the last thing a formally trained apprentice learns about." He mentions that Harry's training wasn't formal.
You are off a couple of years I think. I think Harry was either eleven or twelve when Justin adopted him. He was sixteen and killed him and was declared a full wizard, however sixteen is still considered a minor, that was the excuse for Eb to take over his guardianship. Harry lived with Eb for three years, and as you say Eb taught him ethics but very little magic. Harry was on his own at nineteen, so his intensive magic training was more like five years or less. I also think the scope of
Justin's training was rather narrow, he was training him to be an enforcer, not a well rounded wizard.
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Harry does have something to trade with Lea, knowledge. Harry knows that two very powerful wizards handled the tainted athame that Bianca gave to Lea for Amoracchius. It's quite possible that Bianca had no knowledge that she has giving Lea a tainted gift, she was just the fall guy. Yes, I know Cowl probably has another name that Harry doesn't know, but does that really matter? From the conversation Harry and Lea had in Ghost Story, the information Harry does have is something that Lea would very much like to know. Also, seeing as Lea could probably only give Thomas temporary rest from his demon, it would be appropriate that Harry could only give Lea incomplete information about Cowl.
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Harry does have something to trade with Lea, knowledge. Harry knows that two very powerful wizards handled the tainted athame that Bianca gave to Lea for Amoracchius. It's quite possible that Bianca had no knowledge that she has giving Lea a tainted gift, she was just the fall guy. Yes, I know Cowl probably has another name that Harry doesn't know, but does that really matter? From the conversation Harry and Lea had in Ghost Story, the information Harry does have is something that Lea would very much like to know. Also, seeing as Lea could probably only give Thomas temporary rest from his demon, it would be appropriate that Harry could only give Lea incomplete information about Cowl.
But she only gave him confidence according to Jim.. I realize that is a lot, but it isn't knowledge.
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But she only gave him confidence according to Jim.. I realize that is a lot, but it isn't knowledge.
I think you misunderstood what I was alluding to. (My fault for not being more explicit.) In Ghost Story, Lea told Harry the reason she went all out against the Red Court at Chichen Itza was because she felt that she owed Harry for taking out Bianca. Lea wanted revenge against Bianca because of the tainted blade she was given. So, it seems to me that Lea would want the information Harry has that points to another party; who at the very least was working with Bianca to ensure Lea was given a Nemesis tainted item, or was solely responsible for the item being tainted.
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I think you misunderstood what I was alluding to. (My fault for not being more explicit.) In Ghost Story, Lea told Harry the reason she went all out against the Red Court at Chichen Itza was because she felt that she owed Harry for taking out Bianca. Lea wanted revenge against Bianca because of the tainted blade she was given. So, it seems to me that Lea would want the information Harry has that points to another party; who at the very least was working with Bianca to ensure Lea was given a Nemesis tainted item, or was solely responsible for the item being tainted.
I don't think Bianca was as bright as she thought she was, I believe she was being manipulated by others. As far as Lea goes, it was her own lust for power that left her open.
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1. I don't think Bianca was as bright as she thought she was, I believe she was being manipulated by others.
2. As far as Lea goes, it was her own lust for power that left her open.
1. I agree.
2. That is probably also correct.
The problem is, both of the points you make are irrelevant to what I am saying. Lea is a powerful fae. The fae tend to hold a grudge against those they believed have wronged them. Lea will want payback; make that bloody payback, against Cowl; and probably Kumori as well, for being fully or partly responsible for giving her the tainted athame.
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Harry could certainly use that information to his advantage, if he had it. Does he?
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1. I agree.
2. That is probably also correct.
The problem is, both of the points you make are irrelevant to what I am saying. Lea is a powerful fae. The fae tend to hold a grudge against those they believed have wronged them. Lea will want payback; make that bloody payback, against Cowl; and probably Kumori as well, for being fully or partly responsible for giving her the tainted athame.
I understand what you are saying, what I am saying is Lea needs to take responsibility for her own failings that nearly led to the ruin of the Winter Court. A desire to go after Cowl should be on it's own merits not for revenge for something she could have avoided in the first place. Having said that I realize that the Fae don't see the world exactly like humans do.