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The Dresden Files => DF Spoilers => Topic started by: jamescagney22 on June 23, 2017, 07:19:18 PM
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So Vittorio Malvora and to some extent Lord Raith have used Outsider magic but how it is used varies differently, enhancing the formers power, and removing magic on the latter. He Who Walks Behind is the source for both of these so is there a reason for the contradictory powers? And on another note Cowl has been said to use Outsider magic but I cannot remember, where did he use it in White Night somewhere or is this just speculation I took as fact?
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It's not contradictory any more than Harry's magic is. It's just able to do different things depending on the application, same as Harry's magic can either blow things up with fireballs or find coins lost at the bottom of Lake Michigan.
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So Vittorio Malvora and to some extent Lord Raith have used Outsider magic but how it is used varies differently, enhancing the formers power, and removing magic on the latter. He Who Walks Behind is the source for both of these so is there a reason for the contradictory powers? And on another note Cowl has been said to use Outsider magic but I cannot remember, where did he use it in White Night somewhere or is this just speculation I took as fact?
IMO all dark magic is Outsider magic. I think Jim even suggested it but didn't want to be too specific. I think that's why it results in corruption, and madness.
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I do recall in Dead Beat that Grevane said he saw the True magic on Harry, at first I did not know what he was talking about as up to this point Harry has never encountered necromancy before, but perhaps his encounter with He Who Walks Behind, was a form of it. Or he could have been referring to his First Law infraction, or both, re-reading is always fun, you never know what you will catch again.
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I do recall in Dead Beat that Grevane said he saw the True magic on Harry, at first I did not know what he was talking about as up to this point Harry has never encountered necromancy before, but perhaps his encounter with He Who Walks Behind, was a form of it. Or he could have been referring to his First Law infraction, or both, re-reading is always fun, you never know what you will catch again.
I assumed that had to do with the ending of Grave Peril -- when Harry, in spirit form, ate the ghost of Kravos and consumed his magic. That seems like the closest thing to necromancy Harry did before Sue.
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I assumed that had to do with the ending of Grave Peril -- when Harry, in spirit form, ate the ghost of Kravos and consumed his magic. That seems like the closest thing to necromancy Harry did before Sue.
I wouldn't call it that.. Harry was dead when he did it, he had prearranged for Susan to give him CPR to bring him back once he had done it..
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I always thought Grevane was detecting the ball of necromancy that Evil Bob just tried to kill Harry with a chapter or two before. I don't have my copy handy, so I can't look it up.
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I wouldn't call it that.. Harry was dead when he did it, he had prearranged for Susan to give him CPR to bring him back once he had done it..
Dead or not, he consumed the spirit and power of another being. Even if not necessarily necromancy, it's vile enough that I could see it being the kind of True Magic Grevane was talking about.
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Oh... yeah, BadHumours is right. He was probably detecting Evil Bob's magic on Harry.
But I'd definitely say what Harry did to Kravos's ghost was necromancy. It's pretty much *exactly* what Corpsetaker tried to do in Ghost Story, remember.
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I'm sorry but Cowl is specifically implied NOT to use Outsider Magic. Making him the exception amongst advance Dark Magic users.
Whenever we are dealing with Outsider Magic Butcher tends to use words like oozing, sticky, vile etc. Lovecraftian words for short. While Cowls magic is described as cold, surgical, and dark, yes evil but not the Outsider type.
Harry even makes a point to compare it to his own Magic at darker moments. Which leads me personally to believe that there is a kind of Higher Dark Magic, that is free of Outsider Infection, most people just don't have the mental fortitude or will to get past the easier Outsider corrupted version and end up using that instead of Higher Dark Magic.
If that Higher Dark Magic does mentally corrupt you or not is anybody's guess, but at least it seems there is a path of Dark Magic that doesn't automatically mean using or working with Outsiders.
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I'm sorry but Cowl is specifically implied NOT to use Outsider Magic. Making him the exception amongst advance Dark Magic users.
When he fought Harry he didn't use it. He was the one who handed off Nemesis to Leah, and probably Ferro. So just because he wasn't using it when he tangled with Harry doesn't mean he doesn't use it.
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So Vittorio Malvora and to some extent Lord Raith have used Outsider magic but how it is used varies differently, enhancing the formers power, and removing magic on the latter. He Who Walks Behind is the source for both of these so is there a reason for the contradictory powers? And on another note Cowl has been said to use Outsider magic but I cannot remember, where did he use it in White Night somewhere or is this just speculation I took as fact?
There are three(ish) separate effects that I think we've seen:
The first is the Ritual from BR fueled by He Who Walks Behind (and/or his Boss, w/HWWBh as the standard proxy to be sent). This is notable because anyone can use it on any given day, regardless of affiliation.
The second is Papa Wraith's unexplained immunity to Magic, which we strongly suspect but cannot specifically prove is Outsider fueled.
The third is the stuff that we saw Vitto, and later Sharkface doing. Lash described the attacks Vitto was throwing "as drawn directly from the mind of the Outsider", and then at the end of CD we see the cloud of smoke that presumably is HWWB4 flee from a meatsuit wearing semi-sentient rags or something. There is a WOJ that strongly (if somewhat jokingly) implies that Vitto was possessed by He Who Walks Before, and that vitto was HWWB4's meatsuit in CD. In the WOJ (which Im failing to find a link for at present) somebody asked Jim if Vitto was the meatsuit Sharkface was wearing, and his response was something to the effect of "oh, that would have been coo- I mean, YES! That was my intent the the time..." It was all in a very joking tone, so it's as solid a statement to some. Regardless though I think those are closer to actual possession by an outsider entity, as opposed to a sponsored magic.
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So Vittorio Malvora and to some extent Lord Raith have used Outsider magic but how it is used varies differently, enhancing the formers power, and removing magic on the latter. He Who Walks Behind is the source for both of these so is there a reason for the contradictory powers? And on another note Cowl has been said to use Outsider magic but I cannot remember, where did he use it in White Night somewhere or is this just speculation I took as fact?
I'm not at all sure Vitto's sponsor/possessor was HWW-Behind. And if you're talking about Lord Raith's protection, I'm not certain Behind was responsible for that either. The only thing connection there that we can be certain of is that Lord Raith's ritual curse called out to Behind to get the killings done in exchange for the sacrifice.
Either of the others could have been connected to Before, the third Walker (assuming Nemesis isn't already the third one), the Lord of Slowest Terror that Raith's ritual mentioned as Behind's boss, or some other powerful Outsider besides the Walkers.
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I'm not at all sure Vitto's sponsor/possessor was HWW-Behind. And if you're talking about Lord Raith's protection, I'm not certain Behind was responsible for that either. The only thing connection there that we can be certain of is that Lord Raith's ritual curse called out to Behind to get the killings done in exchange for the sacrifice.
Either of the others could have been connected to Before, the third Walker (assuming Nemesis isn't already the third one), the Lord of Slowest Terror that Raith's ritual mentioned as Behind's boss, or some other powerful Outsider besides the Walkers.
I do think Lord Raith is protected or possessed by an Outsider though, we just don't know who as of yet.. I've made WAGS before that there might even be a connection between the Hunger demon and Outsiders.
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There are three(ish) separate effects that I think we've seen:
The first is the Ritual from BR fueled by He Who Walks Behind (and/or his Boss, w/HWWBh as the standard proxy to be sent). This is notable because anyone can use it on any given day, regardless of affiliation.
The second is Papa Wraith's unexplained immunity to Magic, which we strongly suspect but cannot specifically prove is Outsider fueled.
The third is the stuff that we saw Vitto, and later Sharkface doing. Lash described the attacks Vitto was throwing "as drawn directly from the mind of the Outsider", and then at the end of CD we see the cloud of smoke that presumably is HWWB4 flee from a meatsuit wearing semi-sentient rags or something. There is a WOJ that strongly (if somewhat jokingly) implies that Vitto was possessed by He Who Walks Before, and that vitto was HWWB4's meatsuit in CD. In the WOJ (which Im failing to find a link for at present) somebody asked Jim if Vitto was the meatsuit Sharkface was wearing, and his response was something to the effect of "oh, that would have been coo- I mean, YES! That was my intent the the time..." It was all in a very joking tone, so it's as solid a statement to some. Regardless though I think those are closer to actual possession by an outsider entity, as opposed to a sponsored magic.
That WoJ was a twitter reply to Griff
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IMO all dark magic is Outsider magic. I think Jim even suggested it but didn't want to be too specific. I think that's why it results in corruption, and madness.
If the DF is based on a d&d scheme where we don't know all the rules, I could totally see it just being the same bad juju based on different layers or sources. Like magic is magic as far as the 5 elements go, but water magic is decidedly just as different from fire magic as it is the same.
The 3rd example always seems to remind me of a strong enough being simply trying to dictate reality. like if MW comes to earth reality warps around her. Or how mab's mere presence makes snow. They seem to be trying to juice up that effect but lack the ability to take it beyond mere willpower.