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The Dresden Files => DF Spoilers => Topic started by: g33k on December 16, 2019, 05:37:31 PM
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Denarians, as we know, can implant a "shadow" of themselves within the mind of a mortal who knowingly/intentionally handles a coin.
It doesn't appear to be like a magical "tag," where touching an unwilling or unknowing subject gives that person a Shadow. You gotta know what you're doing, and do it either intentionally or carelessly. Similarly, merely "handling" a coin isn't sufficient to release the Fallen and become their host. You must, it seems, agree to that role; you must "make a deal with the Devil," so to speak.
Still, there is that "Shadowed" step, between being host to one of the Fallen and being utterly free of the coin & its Fallen.
But thanks to @morriswalters, I just realized something...
In Proven Guilty, Michael Carpenter tells Harry how to eliminate the shadow:
“Give up the coin of your own will. And set aside your power. If you do, Lasciel’s shadow will dwindle with it and waste away.”
Hmm. That's how a WIZARD can do it. (How can a MUGGLE do it? Or CAN they even? More on that below...).
Then we look at Harry's magic. Even before the Shadow manifested to Harry, in dream or illusion, it was still giving Hellfire to Harry's magic; mostly to Fuego, but also to Forzare. Simply running his will through his staff (to get the runes glowing) brought a hint of brimstone.
Taken together, it appears that a Denarian Shadow -- in a wizard -- links directly and to their magic, not merely to their "mind."
I mean, yeah there's stuff like the "eidetic memory" trick, gift-of-Tongues, etc. Mental tricks that aren't explicitly "magical."
But the Shadow was affecting Harry's spells without him understanding how, or what to do about it; and the Church knows that setting aside magic will cause a Shadow to "whither" alongside the magic.
So the Shadow -- in a Wizard -- is linked specifically to their magic!
Other mortals (from above), non-wizards? How do they get free? I'm going to go over to Father Forthill's wisdom in Proven Guilty:
“Power,” he said, waving a hand in an all-encompassing gesture. "Magic. Physical strength. Economic strength. Political strength. It all serves a single purpose..."
So I'll venture a WAG that any Muggle would set aside the Shadow by setting aside their mundane strength. Retire from politics (including all consulting, being interviewed, writing op-ed pieces, lobbying, etc); give away all their wealth; etc. Someone with physical strength would be particularly challenged, I think; they'd have to set up their life to operate as if they were of average-or-less strength, and intentionally act within those limits. Take more trips carrying smaller loads, pack smaller bags/boxes to carry, etc.
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Very interesting question.
I like the answer you have given, especially as Jim when writing how one gives up a denarian was only thinking about it from a Wizards perspective.
The simple answer of course, is that almost no one ever does, so there might not be much knowledge for how to do it.
Our case study is Sanya. What did Sanya put aside to remove the Fallen? His ego? His tainted love for Rosanna? It is unclear. Yes admittedly he was giving up the Coin, not resisting a shadow.
So perhaps you have to take up the Coin to get rid of the Shadow if you are a vanilla mortal. Have to go forward to go back, so to speak.
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It doesn't appear to be like a magical "tag," where touching an unwilling or unknowing subject gives that person a Shadow. You gotta know what you're doing, and do it either intentionally or carelessly. Similarly, merely "handling" a coin isn't sufficient to release the Fallen and become their host. You must, it seems, agree to that role; you must "make a deal with the Devil," so to speak.
I'm not sure either way on that. There are some indications it works that way, but then Harry seemed to think Thomas and Karrin were in danger if they touched dropped coins without knowing what they were was in SmF. He & Michael also both thought little Harry Carpenter would have been in trouble if Harry hadn't grabbed Lasciel's coin first when Nicodemus threw it at him at the end of DM, and a toddler clearly wouldn't have any idea about that.
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Somebody can look this up if they care enough. Harry and Michael talk about this. Maybe in Skin Game. I tried to find it, but it's in one of the books somewhere.. Michael said that the Denarians had attacked the Knights through their children in just this fashion. Harry describes shadow as an imaginary friend in Small Favor. So think about it.
In terms of how a vanilla mortal shakes a shadow. I picture it like addiction. Some people can shoot up and walk away, some are hooked for life. With no coin and no magic energy to draw on, the shadow would just fade over time.
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I'm not sure either way on that. There are some indications it works that way, but then Harry seemed to think Thomas and Karrin were in danger if they touched dropped coins without knowing what they were was in SmF ...
I'm pretty sure this specific instance is Harry not knowing for sure, but knowing the downside risk was immeasurably-awful! :-\
... He & Michael also both thought little Harry Carpenter would have been in trouble if Harry hadn't grabbed Lasciel's coin first when Nicodemus threw it at him at the end of DM, and a toddler clearly wouldn't have any idea about that.
This is an excellent point... and I presume Michael is in a position to know with some accuracy.
Somebody can look this up if they care enough. Harry and Michael talk about this. Maybe in Skin Game. I tried to find it, but it's in one of the books somewhere.. Michael said that the Denarians had attacked the Knights through their children in just this fashion. Harry describes shadow as an imaginary friend in Small Favor. So think about it.
Again, good points.
But then... why do the Denarians torture people to try to get them to take a coin? Seems like a poor tactic for long-term success! Harry, Marcone, Ivy... Why not just /touch/ the coin to them, duct-tape it to their bicep, whatever. Place the coin in contact with them, and keep them prisoner until they convert? I mean... maybe the whole "torture" schtick is fun for some of them (Tessa springs to mind, and whoever Ursiel targets), but others (like Nic) seem to feel it's a lamentably-slow process & only moderately likely to be productive.
If all it took was an unwitting touch, I expect there'd be a HUGE Denarian push to place Shadows in strategic locations throughout both Muggle and supernatural worlds. I mean, it's EASY to get just a touch onto someone not expecting that.
So I'm not clear what the parameters are... I can see textual evidence that shadow-at-a-touch IS a problem, and that it is NOT.
Maybe "it's complicated" is the best we can hope for.
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But then... why do the Denarians torture people to try to get them to take a coin? Seems like a poor tactic for long-term success! Harry, Marcone, Ivy... Why not just /touch/ the coin to them, duct-tape it to their bicep, whatever. Place the coin in contact with them, and keep them prisoner until they convert? I mean... maybe the whole "torture" schtick is fun for some of them (Tessa springs to mind, and whoever Ursiel targets), but others (like Nic) seem to feel it's a lamentably-slow process & only moderately likely to be productive.
Maybe because just any smuck isn't a whole lot of use, they want a host with "skills" physical and mental to begin with to use and enhance.
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Somebody can look this up if they care enough. Harry and Michael talk about this. Maybe in Skin Game. I tried to find it, but it's in one of the books somewhere.. Michael said that the Denarians had attacked the Knights through their children in just this fashion.
I'm putting my money on Proven Guilty when Harry confesses to Michael.
Why not just /touch/ the coin to them, duct-tape it to their bicep, whatever.
Because the thing is choosing to pick up the coin, not choosing the Fallen.
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I think it might depend a lot on the coin and Denarian themselves. From what we've learnt those Denarians that are basically just demonic muscle, can give up their coin willingly and even relatively easily, as we learnt from Sanya and Cassius. Hell Cassius could even give it up with full intention of picking it up again.
More powerful Denarians might be harder to fore go.
Although Nicodemus did give up the coin in Skin Game when he was goading Murphy.
I remember he said 'Save me Oh Knight' after ordering Genowska to kill Harry.
As for the Shadows, Lash and Harry even discussed usually it only takes a couple of days maybe 2 weeks for most to accept the coin/denarian.
Lash was able to change who she was due to Harry's influence on her as much as her influence on Harry.
Another thing to consider is that Lash said Harry's easier to talk to when he's asleep. Referring to Harry's ID self. So assuming most people don't have a literal alter ego, Shadows can still talk and tempt the persons subconscious.
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Touching the coin is only half the game. You have to invite the fallen in. The shadow exists to close the sale. Torture could be used, either by triggering the Stockholm Syndrome or through simple brainwashing after breaking the subject.
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Another thing to consider is that Lash said Harry's easier to talk to when he's asleep. Referring to Harry's ID self. So assuming most people don't have a literal alter ego, Shadows can still talk and tempt the persons subconscious.
Yeah, well, we all know that Harry's ID is the dark side of his "force." The ID is all action and to hell with the consequences, that would make him easier not just to talk to but to convince by Lasciel. Here is a thought, and I think there have been hints that since Bonny is the child of the ID and depending on when they mated if she was more Lash than Lasciel or vice versa, Bonny might be
more like Evil Bob than Bob. Wonder how long it will take Harry to figure that one out?
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Some quotes I found about the coins:
Proven Guilty Ch. 47 Michael:
“Give up the coin of your own will. And set aside your power. If you do, Lasciel’s shadow will dwindle with it and waste away.”
White Night, Ch. 9 Lash:
“Then rid yourself of me. Take up the coin, and I will rejoin the rest of myself, whole again. You will be well rid of me.”
Small Favor, Ch. 38 Michael and Harry
“Because in two thousand years, no one has rid themselves of the shadow of one of the Fallen—except by accepting the demon into them entirely, taking up the coin, and living to feel remorse and discarding it. And you claim that you never took up the coin.” “That’s right,” I said. “Then either the shadow is still there,” Michael said, “still twisting your thoughts. Still whispering to you. Or you’re lying to me about taking up the coin. Those are the only options.”
So, what do we know?
1. Touching a Blackened Denarius enables the shadow of the Denarian to enter your mind. Once inside it starts to talk you into accepting the Fallen (given that the person touching the coin had not planned accepting the Fallen in the first place).
2. Once the Fallen is accepted, the shadow is gone/ reunited with it's original.
3. If a wizard is "infected" with a Fallen's shadow without accepting the Fallen, the only way to get rid of the shadow would be, according to Michael, to "set aside" his "power". He doesn't say " magic", though I would assume it means magic. It could be another power, but honestly, that doesn't make sense to me.
A solution for this case is not provided for non-wizards, as it seems. Except "power" means something other than "magic". At least Michael doesn't know or tell. And why should he? Harry is a wizard and hasn't asked anyway.
4. Another way to get rid of the shadow would be taking up the coin, accepting the Fallen and then giving up the coin.
This would also work for non-wizards.
I haven't found anything else concerning getting rid of the shadows in the books. So if not for #4, we can only guess how it could work for " muggles".
Also I agree that we cannot be sure that Michael really knows everything about it. Or that Lash is telling the truth, when she tells Harry that no shadow has stayed that long without the host taking up the coin.
My thoughts:
before Skin Game I didn't believe Lash was really gone. I believed she was just shut away in the damaged part of Harry's brain, unable to be detected and unable to contact him. Until after some years the brain has healed. Then she would be back.
But then came Skin Game. Lasciel is now in a new host.
First I thought, OK, wrong theory.
But now I ask myself:
What happens to a shadow if it's original Fallen is accepted into another host?
Has this been asked before?
If the shadow vanishes in this case, that would be another possibility for a "muggle" to get rid of it without accepting the coin: giving the coin to someone else. Not a morally acceptable solution, but maybe a working one.
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But now I ask myself:
What happens to a shadow if it's original Fallen is accepted into another host?
Has this been asked before?
I believe each Shadow is entirely separate from its Fallen. An imprint within the mind of the victim, NOT part of, attached to, or powered by the Fallen in any way.
As such, there is no real limit on the number of Shadows that can co-exist in the world.
My own working theory is that this is how (or at least one of the ways that) the Fallen keep their coins in circulation: each of the Fallen, at any moment, has a score or more of Shadows working, hidden within ordinary-seeming muggles. These are not actively working to advance the "cause" of the Fallen, they're a Backup Plan. Each one works on three agenda items: - giving the Host a good, secure life. Stable, safe, etc. They're backup. they need to be reliable!
- making the Host sympathetic and trusting toward the Shadow within them, and the Fallen it represents (#1 helps a LOT!).
- checking a Dead-Drop periodically
That's it. But also, the actual Denarian, holding the Coin, periodically sends a spy-style "Dead Drop" to each of their Shadow's. All the Drop is, is something to say "I'm still going; don't activate!"
But then, if any particular Coin drops out of circulation, the Dead Drops no longer keep the Backup Plan quiescent. Suddenly there's a bunch of Shadows telling their hosts how to summon the Coin, and that it's Very Important that they do so.
For further safety, I imagine a few of the Fallen have a mutual-trust society, whereby they don't even know all the locations & Dead-Drops of their own backup Shadows, but rely on a backup Fallen to ACTICVELY activate that Shadow (i.e. those Hosts check a drop that DOESN'T regularly happen, but if the the drop DOES activate, then they summon). This prevents a Host who turns on them (like Sanya did) from getting to the Backup Shadows before they can Activate, because not even the Fallen or their Host knows all of the Backup Shadows.
... or maybe that's too paranoid and careful even for millenia-old Fallen Angels?... <heh> NO, IT'S NOT.
I presume they have other measures in place, too.
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3. If a wizard is "infected" with a Fallen's shadow without accepting the Fallen, the only way to get rid of the shadow would be, according to Michael, to "set aside" his "power". He doesn't say " magic", though I would assume it means magic. It could be another power, but honestly, that doesn't make sense to me.
On this point I'm kind of with Harry, simply because I think Michael is guessing, or maybe more like hoping that if Harry gave up his magic the shadow would leave his head. Since it has never happened before as far as the records show for the last 2,000 years how would he know?
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On this point I'm kind of with Harry, simply because I think Michael is guessing, or maybe more like hoping that if Harry gave up his magic the shadow would leave his head. Since it has never happened before as far as the records show for the last 2,000 years how would he know?
I think Michael was being truthful, telling Harry that this is the way that works, the ONLY way. I think the Knights (and their backup group in the Church) have sufficient records to know that this HAS been a reliable method; if the wizard can reliably set aside their power to wither away, the Shadow will reliably wither away too.
HOWEVER... there's an unspoken "so far as they know" in there, and I'm sure they DON'T know as far as they think they do!
I suspect that one of the things that triggers the Denarians to go on a records-purge (to strip the Church of knowledge about them) is if the Church ever learns another way to purge a Shadow. If Fallen go after a Man or Woman of Power, and the Host resists the Shadow... well, they're no longer a person of Power, because they've set it aside to get free of the Shadow!
So the Fallen may not have a new Host, BUT a potentially-powerful foe has been neutralized! I think the Fallen are QUITE happy with the Church actively working to disempower the Powerful who have sufficient strength of character to resist them!
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... Also I agree that we cannot be sure that Michael really knows everything about it...
Honestly, I think we CAN be sure that Michael (and the Church) really do NOT know everything about it! Michael won't be lying, and he's unlikely (IMHO) to have information on it that's actively wrong.
But it's absolutely certain that his info is incomplete; and likely that it's catastrophically incomplete!
... Or that Lash is telling the truth, when she tells Harry that no shadow has stayed that long without the host taking up the coin...
Obviously. We can never be certain than a bloody agent of the Fallen(!) is telling the truth!
But that scene near the end, I think is likely truthful. If it were just that one comment, I'd be dubious... I mean, Lash clearly presents as becoming deeply affected by Harry, and doubting herself and her mission. That scene begins with Lash asking Harry if he actually believes Molly can turn around and avoid becoming a Warlock; she may be thinking of her own situation, or even Lasciel the Fallen Angel. She wavers between doubtful (but hopeful) questioning, and raging (but fragile) pride. Harry is convincing her. Or is it all just an act???
Later that night, she declares that Lasciel doesn't deserve to get Harry, and chooses to sacrifice herself to save Harry. So Harry has convinced her, and that prior scene wasn't Lash "acting" in a new strategy to trick Harry, but genuinely showing change and growth.
It matches up with other elements, too, such as Nicodemus (and Anduriel (Anduriel! the Denarian's spymaster / CIO!) got tricked and blindsided by Harry Dresden, because they were utterly confident that Harry couldn't be free of the Shadow.
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It seems obvious to me that having a shadow taken out by an outsider psychic attack is a black swan event. And if the Church didn't know, neither apparently, did Nicodemus.
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It seems obvious to me that having a shadow taken out by an outsider psychic attack is a black swan event. And if the Church didn't know, neither apparently, did Nicodemus.
Indeed. Not even Anduriel saw that possibility... which is really saying something!
But note that Lash chose, ultimately, to become free of Lasciel. Yes, the Outsider attack "killed" her; but specifically because she had ALREADY become something more/other than a mere "shadow". That is what let her "take the bullet," arranging for virtually all of the attack to hit the parts of Harry that were Lash-imprint, and leaving Harry's own psyche largely undamaged.
Lash took HERSELF out of Fallen-Shadow-dom. She was no longer serving Lasciel, by her own choice. It looks very likely, given the way events unfolded, that Lash would have made the same choice (to no longer serve Lasciel) very shortly, even if the Outsiders hadn't been an existential threat.
I think that Jim -- for Doylist reasons -- had to NOT let Lash survive reforming, though: she knows too much, and would reveal too much to Harry, too soon.
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I think Jim wanted to give Harry access to Angelic magic through Bonea. Either Merlin(the original) is the biggest McGuffin you will see, or he got access to magic he shouldn't have had. Maybe Odin gave it to him. But Angelic magic would be capable of holding dark gods and other crappy individuals. We know they practice magic because Lash tells Harry about the wards on the Carpenter's safe room. And Bonea would know at least some of that Angelic magic. Also Bonea would know what it means to be a Starborn, since we know that Lash did. Top that with the fact that Lasciel(the fallen) is trapped in Hades domain with no shadow to summon her back. Unless some of your theory comes to pass.
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... And Bonea would know at least some of that Angelic magic. Also Bonea would know what it means to be a Starborn, since we know that Lash did...
I don't think we know that Bonea knows everything Lash knew, let alone everything Lasciel knew.
In fact, I'm pretty sure the human brain (which is the material Lash had to work with) isn't CAPABLE of knowing everything an Angel knows, so Lasciel's Shadow didn't (couldn't!) know everything Lasciel knew. I wouldn't want to estimate it as a percentage or fraction, but I suspect that shadows have VASTLY less info than their Fallen, a tiny fraction rather than a substantive part.
Also, I suspect that the Fallen can probably CHOOSE what info to imprint into a given Shadow -- THIS one will know more about combat and other direct sorts of conflict; THAT one will know more about social stuff and "soft power;" etc). I presume the Shadow given to Dresden was stuffed with esoteric knowledge, magical secrets, etc... y'know, the stuff to best tempt Harry with 8) .
I expect that Bonea has some subset of Lash's information, what Lash was able to arrange in extremis, in the scant moments available.
I presume Lash was prioritizing what would be most useful to Harry (Lash has a very hard-nosed & practical sense of "useful"), agonizing over what would survive where within his mind, which things she'd leave out, which pieces she would buttress and protect, what would likely be blasted to uselessness... desperately working to give Harry the best odds she could, in the moments before the blast arrived. Very cinematic/heroic/tragic stuff!
She died doing the right thing.
Plus, that limited-info gives Jim the excuse he needs to have Bonea not be the Deus Ex Spiritus solution.
It remains to be seen what she knows, of course... which details are / aren't preserved... whether everything is "on tap" for immediate disclosure... whether there are layers hidden away (like BlueEye Bob inside OrangeEye Bob)... maybe even Lash herself? ... etc ...
... Top that with the fact that Lasciel(the fallen) is trapped in Hades domain with no shadow to summon her back. Unless some of your theory comes to pass.
Remember how Nic came through after everyone else? FAST.
Nic got Lasciel's coin from the vault, and he got Ursiel's from the icefield; that's WHY he was so late at the gate (we already know he could move really, really fast).
Not even gonna call this'un a "WAG," I think it's so much an odds-on likelihood as to approach certainty. We already have WoJ that Lasciel is making another appearance... and Lash too, iirc.
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Leave neurology out of it. The human brain couldn't hold Lash. Contrary to what Jim says you use all of your brain. And you can be overloaded. For the purpose of the story Bonea can be whatever moves the narrative forward. The Archive holds all the information generated by the human race, and she was a little girl at her first introduction. So I'm gonna say that capacity of the human brain doesn't matter. If Bonea doesn't bring something to the story then I fail to see the point.
However I don't know how serious I am. And at the rate Jim is writing I won't find out. For me the story ended at Cold Days.
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We already have WoJ that Lasciel is making another appearance... and Lash too, iirc.
Haven't heard either of those.
I don't think Lash had the ability to choose Bonea's qualities. One thing that limits her helpfulness is she doesn't understand her knowledge, so she wouldn't be able to know which information is relevant.
I wouldn't be surprised if Nic had Ursiel's coin. Him having Lasciel's coin that basically covered in an avalanche of rock and lava would be a bit of a stretch. It escaping some other way wouldn't surprise me because it's part of the coins nature to "be in circulation."
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I feel confident that Nic could have used his own coin and his wonder shadow to slither in the rocks and get the coin. If it can make him fly, i'm sure it can manipulate other objects.
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Haven't heard either of those.
https://wordof.jim-butcher.com/index.php/word-of-jim-woj-compilation/woj-on-angels-demons-fallen-and-knights-of-the-cross/ ...
... [Lasciel's] story is not yet over. However, both Lasciel and Lash appeared in Ghost Story, but not under those names ...
One of the problems with the WoJ archives, particularly with regards speculations about future works, is lining up statements like "we will see more of..." with the date those statements were made, vs the release of books. Any "more of Lasciel" statement before Skin Game, for example, may have been fulfilled by Skin Game!
But here we have mention of Cold Days, so I'm pretty sure they're both coming back: Jim Butcher "is fundamentally a lazy writer."
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Bonea is the end of Lash's story. Anything else would cheapen the emotional payoff from Lash's sacrifice. I hadn't thought about Anduriel maybe being able to get the coins. I like it if they got left, but I'm open to the possibility that they didn't.
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Any "more of Lasciel" statement before Skin Game, for example, may have [has] been fulfilled by Skin Game!
Bonea is the end of Lash's story. Anything else would cheapen the emotional payoff from Lash's sacrifice.
These are basically my take.
I feel confident that Nic could have used his own coin and his wonder shadow to slither in the rocks and get the coin. If it can make him fly, i'm sure it can manipulate other objects.
I'd probably agree if it weren't for the molten rock.
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...I'd probably agree if it weren't for the molten rock.
Some of it was molten, but some of it was not. I guess it's a matter of personal interpretation, until/unless WoJ clarifies the issue. My take is that it was mostly solid.
It was "several hundred tons of molten and red-hot rock," which I understood to be "molten rock" and "red-hot rock(s)." The rest of the description fits with boulders and rubble falling, and nowhere is there any description of molten rock -- it never puddles, splashes, flows, or anything of the sort. Instead, "glowing hot stones bounced from my shield and then began to pile up against it," etc.
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Some of it was molten, but some of it was not. I guess it's a matter of personal interpretation, until/unless WoJ clarifies the issue. My take is that it was mostly solid.
It was "several hundred tons of molten and red-hot rock," which I understood to be "molten rock" and "red-hot rock(s)." The rest of the description fits with boulders and rubble falling, and nowhere is there any description of molten rock -- it never puddles, splashes, flows, or anything of the sort. Instead, "glowing hot stones bounced from my shield and then began to pile up against it," etc.
None of that would destroy the coin, but then the question remains, who'd dig it out? Who aside from Harry know that it is there? Can Lasciel project to a potential host from under the rock pile if the coin isn't physically touched.
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In the real world I would say bring a hundred man or woman working party and heavy equipment. However this isn't the real world and just maybe Anduriel could have grabbed the coins. I have no idea. Harry buried a coin under concrete in his basement and Lash said calling it would be no problem. But that was a shadow calling its fallen
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None of that would destroy the coin, but then the question remains, who'd dig it out? Who aside from Harry know that it is there? Can Lasciel project to a potential host from under the rock pile if the coin isn't physically touched.
Do we know that only a shadow host can summon their Fallen's coin, or could any of the other Denarians retrieve a dropped coin that way? I thought the blessed handkerchiefs used to cover the coins the Knights recover until they can go into warded boxes were to jam Nic or Tessa or one of the other long-term Denarians from summoning the coins of their goons back.
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... I thought the blessed handkerchiefs used to cover the coins the Knights recover until they can go into warded boxes were to jam Nic or Tessa or one of the other long-term Denarians from summoning the coins of their goons back.
Yeah, I think that's what they're for; possibly other things as well.
I'm unconvinced they actually DO the thing(s) the Church thinks they do, however...
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None of that would destroy the coin, but then the question remains, who'd dig it out? Who aside from Harry know that it is there? Can Lasciel project to a potential host from under the rock pile if the coin isn't physically touched.
Well, I'm suggesting that Nic DID dig it out, right after Dresden&Co departed.
But as to who knows... Harry, Michael, Goodman, Anna, & Nic. Anyone else who can get the info from any of them (Anna Valmont is a likely target for supernaturals), or who is told by them.
Of course, getting into the vault to get the coin is rather an issue; even Nic+Anduriel needed to assemble a special crew, and expend some extraordinary resources.
I expect the coin is supernaturally-retrievable SOMEHOW (but as noted, don't think it's necessary).
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Well, I'm suggesting that Nic DID dig it out, right after Dresden&Co departed.
But as to who knows... Harry, Michael, Goodman, Anna, & Nic. Anyone else who can get the info from any of them (Anna Valmont is a likely target for supernaturals), or who is told by them.
Of course, getting into the vault to get the coin is rather an issue; even Nic+Anduriel needed to assemble a special crew, and expend some extraordinary resources.
I expect the coin is supernaturally-retrievable SOMEHOW (but as noted, don't think it's necessary).
The coins can not be kept out of circulation for too long. That is just how things work in the dresdenverse. Nic just called the coins or sent Anduriel to pick them up. Having a collection of coins has always been a top priority for them. He had enough time to get Lasciels coin when Harry and the Genoskwa where in the ice maze and he got through that maze in some way passing the genoskwa.
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I hate to be a kill joy. But is there any indication that any fallen can call the coin of any other fallen? Or that the fallen can directly handle matter, as in a coin? My assumption has always been that to get to that coin, Nic would have had to dig through that pile of rocks. The fallen act through their hosts, or am I missing something?
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I hate to be a kill joy. But is there any indication that any fallen can call the coin of any other fallen? Or that the fallen can directly handle matter, as in a coin? My assumption has always been that to get to that coin, Nic would have had to dig through that pile of rocks. The fallen act through their hosts, or am I missing something?
There is no direct evidence for any of it. Nic might be able to just call it, he might be able to use Anduriel for more than a taxi service. I do think however that the coins are meant to be in circulation and that it is not really possible to keep them out of circulation for an extended period of time.
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I hate to be a kill joy. But is there any indication that any fallen can call the coin of any other fallen? Or that the fallen can directly handle matter, as in a coin? My assumption has always been that to get to that coin, Nic would have had to dig through that pile of rocks. The fallen act through their hosts, or am I missing something?
There is also a little matter of jurisdiction, this is the Kingdom of Hades. Remember what he said
about Deidre's punishment? So I really doubt that Nic could just go back in there and dig it out.
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There is also a little matter of jurisdiction, this is the Kingdom of Hades. Remember what he said
about Deidre's punishment? So I really doubt that Nic could just go back in there and dig it out.
That is Deirdre, he won't get her back. But a denarion coin might be something else.
And the whole thing is also a test. He can take what he wants if he can get away with it, if he proves himself. If Hades wanted to make the mission impossible he could have done so.
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Anduriel/Nic's shadow has interacted with physical objects. It's possible that Nic's shadow could stretch out down through the rocks to grab the coin.
My problem is that I don't think he could do that past the molten rocks. Molten means either liquefied rocks or red hot rocks, with the first being the more common meaning. I think the first would be an almost 100% barrier. I think the second is something like a 75% barrier.
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Anduriel/Nic's shadow has interacted with physical objects. It's possible that Nic's shadow could stretch out down through the rocks to grab the coin.
My problem is that I don't think he could do that past the molten rocks. Molten means either liquefied rocks or red hot rocks, with the first being the more common meaning. I think the first would be an almost 100% barrier. I think the second is something like a 75% barrier.
Except that things like probability are not really reliable around theses things. The coins want to be found. It is entirely possible that 98% of Hannah was covered with molten rock and that the coin was not.
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Except that things like probability are not really reliable around theses things. The coins want to be found. It is entirely possible that 98% of Hannah was covered with molten rock and that the coin was not.
Possible, with Nic grabbing it without anyone noticing and taking it with him. However I don't see Nic returning to Hades for it. It may also be possible that Hades has it in his possession, in that case
in my opinion no one else is going to get it.
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Possible, with Nic grabbing it without anyone noticing and taking it with him. However I don't see Nic returning to Hades for it. It may also be possible that Hades has it in his possession, in that case
in my opinion no one else is going to get it.
Agreed, Nic won't return to Hades' vault.
But recall how he hid and retreated at the end of the fight with Michael & Harry? Emphasis on "hid," for our purposes: he vanished from BOTH their views, mid-combat.
I think that demonstrates that Anduriel could cloak Nic during... say... the Dresden vs. Denarian-Gen duel. The big guy was flinging so much rock, collapsing columns, etc... Harry would likely not have noticed a careful and subtle effort by the Master of Shadows.
That's Lasciel, in the bag! Besides... If that WASN'T what he was doing... He was doing something even worse (because Nicodemus).
Then he lurks after the chase, sees Roadkill Gen, and gives the Good Guys a moment to get clear; then moves in to score Ursiel for the twofer.
And we saw how fast he could move, in his dash through the Gate & to the vault-door (where he paused to taunt Harry (& Michael)).
I honestly don't even consider this a WAG, just a most-likely course of events.
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I hate to be a kill joy. But is there any indication that any fallen can call the coin of any other fallen? Or that the fallen can directly handle matter, as in a coin? My assumption has always been that to get to that coin, Nic would have had to dig through that pile of rocks. The fallen act through their hosts, or am I missing something?
There's evidence Anduriel can interact with matter directly when he's driving Nic's shadow around - that was how Dresden got captured in DM. He may be unique among the Fallen in that, and it's uncertain whether he can exert enough force to excavate the coin, but it's a possible explanation if Jim wants the coin back in circulation.
Standing Denarians being able to summon another Fallen's coin is unproven. The Church seems to think they're preventing something with the blessed kerchiefs and warded strongboxes, but they could be wrong about the enemy's capabilities.
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When Harry is having the final face off with Lasciel she tells him that mortals can't contain the coin. Hades isn't a mortal and he guarded the Holy Grail. If Lasciel's coin didn't leave with Nicodemus, she's going to have a hard time getting out. I think she'll look good displayed on a pedestal in his collection.
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From a story telling perspective, it would be shocking to see Lasciel done and gone and trapped in Hades vault for good. I just think that Lasciel's going to have a role going forward.
So, either Nic got the coin, which is the most obvious way for it to get out and one that is totally supported by the events as others have posited, the coin will escape on its own due to it's nature, Bonnie will summon "Mother" somehow at some point, or someone will go to the vault and get it. Of course, Jim is infinitely creative and may have another idea in mind, too, but those are the ones that immediately come to mind.
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I don't see any story Lasciel has left in the Dresden Files. But that doesn't mean there isn't one. If it was clear to me why Lasciel needs to be in the story down the road, that would be a reason to believe that the coin gets back into circulation, but not necessarily that Nic got it out.
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I don't see any story Lasciel has left in the Dresden Files. But that doesn't mean there isn't one. If it was clear to me why Lasciel needs to be in the story down the road, that would be a reason to believe that the coin gets back into circulation, but not necessarily that Nic got it out.
The story doesn't need Lasciel, there is plenty of her in Bonny along with Harry's Id, he will be fighting against their influence as much as he will be calling on them to help. I believe that has
been hinted at by Jim.
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The reality is that Lasciel is in Hades's Vault forever, permanently, for all eternity. Unless Jim decides he needs Lasciel down the line for reasons (maybe the Denarians will play a major role in the BAT, for instance, and we'll get to see all thirty in Hell's Bells), at which point "eternity" just meant "for several books." Then he'll justify her Coin getting recirculated in whatever way best fits the story (Nicodemus very well might've snatched it before fleeing during Skin Game, as some of you have suggested. Or someone could summon her. Or whatever. It honestly almost doesn't matter.)
But, if he never needs to use Lasciel again, then her fate is to lie in that Vault forever.
EDIT: For what it's worth, I feel the same way about Cat Sith. He's dead unless Jim decides he isn't, at which point Sith will have been rescued or Deus Ex Machina-ed back to life.
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The reality is that Lasciel is in Hades's Vault forever, permanently, for all eternity.
Nope.
The reality is those coins are meant to be in circulation. Not even Hades can keep them out of play.
... Unless Jim decides ... Then he'll justify her Coin getting recirculated in whatever way best fits the story ... Or whatever. It honestly almost doesn't matter...
This, of course! You're spot-on, here.
Ultimately, the story goes however Jim says it goes. He could leave the coin in the vault; he could have it already out and circulating; he could leave it there, and pull it out when he wants it back. Maybe he has HARRY summon the Coin!
Similarly, Lasciel could be out and circulating (on the "meant to be in circulation" grounds), but we may never see her again if Jim decides a "Harry/Lasciel rematch" would be too much travelling the same ground.
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The story doesn't need Lasciel, there is plenty of her in Bonny along with Harry's Id, he will be fighting against their influence as much as he will be calling on them to help. I believe that has been hinted at by Jim.
Lasciel isn't Lash. Bonnie has some of Lash in her; there may be some Lash-influence coming forward, as you say. That isn't Lasciel.
Lasciel will show up in the stories if Jim wants to have her there... my guess is that he does, and so she will.
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@ g33k: Why do you see Jim wanting Lasciel back in the story? I ask because I just don't see any story for her. There are plenty of characters I feel have threads hanging to be tugged on. Lasciel just isn't one of them.
Jim has made comments that make me think Cat Sith is coming back. Additionally, when a character supernatural being "dies" by falling into water, they usually come back.
I agree with Kindler that Lasciel is stuck in Hades' Vault for the "duration" ... unless Jim wants her out. By the "duration," I mean the rest of the series/BAT.
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Nope.
The reality is those coins are meant to be in circulation. Not even Hades can keep them out of play.
This, of course! You're spot-on, here.
Ultimately, the story goes however Jim says it goes. He could leave the coin in the vault; he could have it already out and circulating; he could leave it there, and pull it out when he wants it back. Maybe he has HARRY summon the Coin!
Similarly, Lasciel could be out and circulating (on the "meant to be in circulation" grounds), but we may never see her again if Jim decides a "Harry/Lasciel rematch" would be too much travelling the same ground.
The point is that Lasciel's part in the story has ended. Unless and until Jim decides to put her back into the story, the Coin is in the Vault. She can come out of the Vault if Jim wants her to—she doesn't even have to show up. Just a throwaway line from Nic or whoever saying something about removing the Coin from the Vault is enough to remove her from there. But unless and until that happens, that's where the Coin remains.
Just because the Coins are meant to be in circulation doesn't mean that they can't be removed from circulation—at least for so long that it's essentially the same thing. Enduring until the heat death of the universe or the apocalypse is kinda indistinguishable from "forever" for practical purposes, even if those events happen within a few decades.
The Coins' ability to stay "free" mostly seems to rely upon variables that can be manipulated—almost like an entropy curse. But there have to be things that can be manipulated for it to happen—breaking an aquarium's glass wall, for instance, and a gentle shift along the Coin's axis can send it rolling toward an unsuspecting mortal, like we saw. Held within the Church's version of Area 51, you've got various people you can manipulate (apparently responsible for Nicodemus recovering about 50% of lost Coins), along with environmental effects, electrical circuits to disrupt, fires to start, weather, etc. Plenty to work with.
In Hades's Vault, there's rock, treasure, shades, and a god so badass he wears a crown made out of Deathstone. Yes, mortals can reach the Vault with enough badassery of their own, but we all saw the kind of team it took to get there.
The only way the Coins (remember the Genoskwa had one too, and I don't know if Nic thought to grab his on his way out) had anything to work with at all was at the moment of their hosts' deaths. If Hannah's Coin squirted out through a gap in the molten rocks from the pressure and landed on a pile of other coins, sure, Nic could've grabbed it when he skedaddled. I find it more likely that he grabbed Genny's after Harry got him pancaked—that's something Anduriel's shadow can do, being two-dimensional and all.
But the point is that, unless Nic grabbed Lasciel's Coin somehow, doubling back to the Vault after escaping Michael and Harry, it just doesn't have anything around it to work with that would get it into mortal hands. It's no longer on the mortal plane at all. It'll stay there until another crew decides to pull a heist.
More importantly, it'll stay there until Jim needs it to be elsewhere. It's just too much of a stretch for me to really think otherwise unless it's stated in the text. Speculation is dope, and I encourage it; there are plenty of fun ways to imagine the Coin is out there wreaking further havoc still. But there's just too much against the idea for it to be really feasible to me without confirmation.
Lasciel will show up in the stories if Jim wants to have her there... my guess is that he does, and so she will.
I don't know what Lasciel would add to the main case files. Her arc feels rather complete. We saw her shadow's arc play out between Death Masks and White Night. We saw the aftereffects for several books beyond that. Then we saw what it looks like when Lasciel's temptations work, from an outsider's perspective. And we saw Harry dish out karmic justice (pretty directly, too; he used Hannasciel's magic against her). That felt pretty final to me. Having her return to the main series would just feel kinda like retreading the same ground. Considering that Jim wants to start tightening up future novels, I'd say that yet another round with Lasciel would constitute unnecessary bloat, the type of which you'd want to trim.
The BAT is a different story, though (heh, possibly literally). I have zero doubt that the Fallen will play a big role in the Apocalypse. Lasciel could have a role there.
But where we are in the series, I'm not even sure the Denarians are going to return before the BAT. If they do, it'll be one more round, probably around book 20 (could be the very last one, which might be as late as book 22). It depends on how the next book shakes out, in my opinion; I fully anticipate Peace Talks will be setting the stage for the remaining players for the series and positioning everyone for the last minute scramble before the music stops. Nicky and His Superpals will probably show up before the case files ends, but it's possible they'll be offstage until the apocalypses kick off. (In which case, my WAG is that the order of the BAT is 1. Hell's Bells, 2. Stars and Stones, 3. Empty Night; Hell's Bells will start with the apocalypse of Revelations (or the Dresdenverse equivalent) and the Denarians' role will be center stage.)
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The point is that Lasciel's part in the story has ended. Unless and until Jim decides to put her back into the story, the Coin is in the Vault. She can come out of the Vault if Jim wants her to—she doesn't even have to show up. Just a throwaway line from Nic or whoever saying something about removing the Coin from the Vault is enough to remove her from there. But unless and until that happens, that's where the Coin remains.
It has, and reintroducing her has diminishing returns, her affecting Harry's despair and prompting his suicide in Changes worked. Having Hannah take up the coin in Skin Game wasn't effective in my opinion, mainly because we had nothing emotionally invested in her. The show down was a let down because in my opinion it didn't live up to the "woman scorned" hype..
Now if Jim had gone the Murphy taking up the coin route, it would shocked some, pissed off many, and begged the question, what in the hell does Harry do now because the most trusted friend he had in the world, the woman he loves, has become an enemy.. It could have been the topic for a whole novel..
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@ g33k: Why do you see Jim wanting Lasciel back in the story? I ask because I just don't see any story for her. There are plenty of characters I feel have threads hanging to be tugged on. Lasciel just isn't one of them...
... Now if Jim had gone the Murphy taking up the coin route, it would shocked some, pissed off many, and begged the question, what in the hell does Harry do now because the most trusted friend he had in the world, the woman he loves, has become an enemy.. It could have been the topic for a whole novel..
This, for one (Mira's notion). That story is still available, notwithstanding the H.Ascher arc.
I think Lasciel could go (in a usefully-Doylist manner) to one of Harry's already-trusted people. Murphy, Elaine, etc. Agent Tilly (though I'd hate that). Justine, to rig a Thomas/Harry schism. Etc.
I'm not committed to the rematch; I'm not convinced it's happening. I just think we'll see her again; it "feels" to me like Jim has more to say there. I'm not sure what that is, or what it looks like.
Maybe Harry calls the coin in extremis -- Maggie is about to die, he needs a powerup RIGHT NOW (we already know he'll make a deal he hates, to save his baby... he picked Mab over Lasciel because he had more hope of tricking Mab, but it seemed clear he'd have gone with Lasciel if Mab weren't dealing).
That'd be a new storyline -- not just the Shadow in his head, but the actual Fallen!
= = =
As I say -- I'm not convinced it'll happen, I just think it more-likely-than-not. And as Kindler says, the BAT looks likely to feature the Fallen prominently, so then if not before. Maybe Lasciel is out-and-about, but just stays offscreen of the Case Files stories, until the BAT.
I'm convinced that she'll be back in circulation from a Dresdenverse perspective, because that's what the coins do. I'm not convinced she'll get any screen-time in Harry Dresden's story.
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That all seems too close to something we've seen before to me, and I can see better ways of doing the new parts.
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from Mira:
Now if Jim had gone the Murphy taking up the coin route, it would shocked some, pissed off many, and begged the question, what in the hell does Harry do now because the most trusted friend he had in the world, the woman he loves, has become an enemy.. It could have been the topic for a whole novel..
I can't get that dream in Skin Game out of my head. Yes, Lasciel appeared at the end, but I think Harry should just believe that's what the dream meant. But why was it Murphy with the second set of eyes?
I think Nic retrieved the Lashiel's coin during the fight, got secretly into the hospital to uncounscious Murphy, made her skin make contact with the coin without her knowing it, and so made sure, a shadow was created.
I mean, Murphy is the perfect victim now. The hard times she had losing her job, her purpose, her identity and then losing Harry, finding him again, and then being crippled. Maybe she will never be the same again. Can't walk well, not without pain, can't fight any more.
Perfect circumstances for a shadow she doesn't even know about to start influencing her into finally taking up the coin. To end the pain, to become strong again and useful.
Maybe she will take up the coin somewhere during Peace Talks or some time later, when enough time has passed and she had realized, that she won't get any better. Maybe she won't be aware of the shadow for a long time. Lashiel can be subtle.
Becoming a Knight of the Blackened Denarius is not the end. They can be redeemed. So she would not be hopelessly lost. Harry would try to get her back.
In Peace Talks there might be some personal happiness with Harry and Karrin as a couple, with Maggie and Bonnie but we all know, Harry is not supposed to be happy in the long run. It would not fit with what Jim has written so far.
So I think, yes, Murphy as a Denarian will hurt, but it won't be a hopeless situation. And I would totally understand her taking up Lasciel for getting stronger in her current situation.
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This, for one (Mira's notion). That story is still available, notwithstanding the H.Ascher arc.
Hopefully, but go to the well too many times and the arc loses it's impact.
The point is the whole "woman scorned" buildup fell like a lame thud than a bomb shell. We the
readers didn't know Hannah Ascher, so she became a mere vehicle for the Lasciel/Harry confrontation and fight which went on and ended like most of Harry's one on one battles, no real emotional price for Harry to pay so where is the revenge? Harry felt attraction towards Hannah, but it was mostly physical, the "build up" with her overt overtures towards Harry were rather lame and rushed. So the battle came down to pissed off fallen angel in a young bitter woman who had some scores to settle verses Harry..
I agree Harry's nightmare about Murphy having a coin was haunting, to carry it through might have worked better than the fight between her and Nic ending with a Holy Sword broken.. Or better yet Harry realizing that Murphy not only was carrying a coin, but she had control of one of the Swords as well... Now that really would have tied Harry's shorts in a real knot... Worse yet for our hero, is
if Murphy/Lasciel survived to fight another day, not just having to meet her again, but Nic using her
as a weapon against him.. That could have gone on for several books.
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Obviously Harry is dreaming of Murphy. His subconscious used the dream figure it had to call out the danger he faced. I guess Harry didn't have any dreams about sexual fantasies involving Hanna, being an old fashioned kind of a guy. And there is no support for the idea that a coin with a rider can put a shadow in someone else. Of course Jim could make me a liar. ;)
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Obviously Harry is dreaming of Murphy. His subconscious used the dream figure it had to call out the danger he faced. I guess Harry didn't have any dreams about sexual fantasies involving Hanna, being an old fashioned kind of a guy. And there is no support for the idea that a coin with a rider can put a shadow in someone else. Of course Jim could make me a liar. ;)
No, but Hannah tried to put the sexual whammy on Harry a couple of times with little effect. As I said neither Harry nor the reader had much sentiment invested in poor Hannah. The confrontation with Harry may have worked better if there hadn't been the "woman scorned" build up.
Yeah, we all know about the Murphy warning dream, but all that did was highlight the weakness of the Hannah/Lasciel, Harry confrontation.
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I think Nic retrieved the Lashiel's coin during the fight, got secretly into the hospital to uncounscious Murphy, made her skin make contact with the coin without her knowing it, and so made sure, a shadow was created.
I'm pretty sure Murphy would have too choose to touch the coin for a shadow to be created. Otherwise, Denarians would just throw the coins at people like Marcone and Ivy.
I think Harry had to have the dream about Murphy because if he had it about Hannah, it would have been way too obvious.
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I'm pretty sure Murphy would have too choose to touch the coin for a shadow to be created. Otherwise, Denarians would just throw the coins at people like Marcone and Ivy.
I think there's a lot of unclarity on what it takes to make a Shadow.
For example, the Denarians had Marcone and Ivy all tied up; they could have just touched a coin to their skin. In an earlier book, Nic tried to recruit Harry with a Coin... but never actually touched the Coin to him. The implication is that it takes someone knowing and intentional; someone who is rejecting/unwilling gets no Shadow.
OTOH, Michael reports that Knight's children have been lured/tricked into taking a Coin; it's apparently a popular Denarian tactic... Or maybe that's just disinformation planted by the Denarians.
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I think there's a lot of unclarity on what it takes to make a Shadow.
For example, the Denarians had Marcone and Ivy all tied up; they could have just touched a coin to their skin. In an earlier book, Nic tried to recruit Harry with a Coin... but never actually touched the Coin to him. The implication is that it takes someone knowing and intentional; someone who is rejecting/unwilling gets no Shadow.
OTOH, Michael reports that Knight's children have been lured/tricked into taking a Coin; it's apparently a popular Denarian tactic... Or maybe that's just disinformation planted by the Denarians.
Remember in Death Masks all the Knights were careful not to touch them and warned Harry against
it. However they were picking up the coins which is voluntary contact, where as touching a captive with one is involuntary, one suggests accepting the coin somewhere down the road so an opening, where as being touched with one is less so.
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I think that Hannah's (not Hannasciel, but Hannah Ascher herself) main purposes covered a fairly wide range.
1. In-universe: Harry's preferential treatment toward women is documented and referred to by villains and allies alike, at least three hundred and fifty-eight thousand, two hundred and twenty-seven times per book. Nicodemus sought her out for a couple of reasons, including her natural talent with fire. The other is to provide a hole card for the inevitable confrontation with Harry, and picking a pretty woman is a good way to catch Harry off-guard.
2. Narratively: Hannah's kind of a dark reflection of what Harry might have become. Warlock who killed people in self-defense, but with no Ebenezer to take responsibility. Ran from the White Council and lived as a fugitive. Sought protection and an alliance (and, from her words, friendship) with the Brotherhood of St. Giles. Still hunted and without an organization to protect her, she joined up with Nicodemus.
3. She also represents one facet of the direct human consequences of Harry's decision to kill the Red Court. She put a face to all the faceless people who have suffered from the fallout of Chichen Itza—not just the defenseless Paranetters or plain ol' mortals who've been attacked or abducted by the Fomor, I mean. She can defend herself (quite well, I'd add), but she's one of the people who lost "everything" because of Harry's choice (not quite everything, obviously, since she's still living and breathing.)
4. Her righteous indignation was the result of circumstances that were similar to Harry's; if he'd either A) not had Ebenezer to take responsibility for him and guide him, or B) simply been more bitter over his situation, he very well might've joined Nicodemus way back in Death Masks. The difference is that Harry had good people in his life; Hannah didn't. Or she did, but they were all killed.
What would've happened to Harry if everyone had died in Changes? He might not have picked up a Coin, but I'm willing to be he'd be a lot more like Mirrorverse Harry come Skin Game.
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3. She also represents one facet of the direct human consequences of Harry's decision to kill the Red Court. She put a face to all the faceless people who have suffered from the fallout of Chichen Itza—not just the defenseless Paranetters or plain ol' mortals who've been attacked or abducted by the Fomor, I mean. She can defend herself (quite well, I'd add), but she's one of the people who lost "everything" because of Harry's choice (not quite everything, obviously, since she's still living and breathing.)
But her anger is misplaced, the blame still goes to the Red King who was willing to risk his whole race for the sake of getting Eb. While yeah, the Red King and his race paid for his gamble, that is still where the anger should go. Also bear in mind "her people" were the resistance against the Red Court for a very long time.. So just what were the goals of the Order of St Giles? Was it not to wipe out the Red Court eventually? Didn't they no know that there would be a price to pay for that? Could this be why Martin was playing both sides of the street? Did he always know that with this kind of set up, Susan would turn, he would die, but he'd be taking the whole Red Court with him?
But none of that is here nor there, if the whole point was Lasciel seeking revenge as the woman scorned it still doesn't work.. Hannah died, she was buried under a ton of slag, and Harry feels
no lasting remorse or pain about what he did, because he did what he did in desperation to save
his family and so that Susan's sacrifice would not have been in vane...
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OTOH, Michael reports that Knight's children have been lured/tricked into taking a Coin; it's apparently a popular Denarian tactic... Or maybe that's just disinformation planted by the Denarians.
I think that's because the children choose to pick up the coin. I think that's the difference. There has to be a difference, right? Otherwise, Denarians would just force contact with recruits.
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I think that's because the children choose to pick up the coin. I think that's the difference. There has to be a difference, right? Otherwise, Denarians would just force contact with recruits.
Yeah, it is a kind of assumed consent even if the poor kid has no clue what he or she is picking up
except a shiny object.
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Yeah, it is a kind of assumed consent even if the poor kid has no clue what he or she is picking up
except a shiny object.
That is a recurring theme in the dresdenverse. Free will has little to do with informed choice.