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The Dresden Files => DFRPG => Topic started by: Belial666 on August 04, 2010, 06:27:24 PM

Title: Real heavy weapons/armor?
Post by: Belial666 on August 04, 2010, 06:27:24 PM
Both human technology and rare materials can make for very powerful, very deadly weaponry. Typically, such weaponry is simply too heavy to be carried by humans but almost all supernatural creatures have some version of supernatural strength. Yes, many supernatural creatures are terribly hidebound but a great deal of them do use advanced technology. So, a few options for our inhumanly strong opponents that occured to me;


If all you have is a hammer:
Imagine a hammer with a handle two inches thick and a bit over three feet long, with a head two feet wide and one foot thick. It is a large hammer, yes? Were it made from iron, it would weigh about half a ton. Were it made from tungsten alloy, a material nearly three times heavier and several times tougher than steel, it would weigh about a ton and a half... and superstrong faeries like Ogres and Trolls would have no problems touching it. Being hit by it would be as bad as being run over by a mack truck going fifty.
What kind of weapon rating would you give that?

Tanking out:
Bulletproof armor is usually behind guns because it faces a very real limitation; it has to be light. The average human can't wear armor heavier than fifty pounds and hope to retain any agility. Now, if you have someone super-strong who has no problem carrying around five thousand pounds...
What armor rating would you give to quarter-inch-thick hardened steel? That kind of armor for a human-sized combatant would weigh 200 pounds or so. What about the same armor from various superalloys? It wouldn't be any thicker thus bulk would be no problem but it would weigh a bit over five hundred pounds and its strength would be three-five times that of steel. Still, five hundred pounds are nothing for someone with inhuman strength and some might or supernatural strength and no might.
And now think of a troll with comparable quality and quantity of armor.

Size does matter:
With a multi-barrel 112 inches long, total length of 19 ft and a total weigh close to 600 pounds, the GAU-8/A is a BFG. It fires 30mm antitank bullets at a rate of 70 rounds per second and can turn tanks into swiss cheese. A superhumanly strong guy or gal that is still human-sized might have some trouble with its bulk but not its weight and a troll or ogre would wield it like we do an assault rifle. Since we have seen Gruffs use machineguns already, why not inhumanly strong opponents with that kind of heavy weaponry? They even have glamours that can hide their size and form until it's too late.
So, what weapon rating would you give the GAU-8/A ?
Title: Re: Real heavy weapons/armor?
Post by: ballplayer72 on August 04, 2010, 06:46:25 PM
Both human technology and rare materials can make for very powerful, very deadly weaponry. Typically, such weaponry is simply too heavy to be carried by humans but almost all supernatural creatures have some version of supernatural strength. Yes, many supernatural creatures are terribly hidebound but a great deal of them do use advanced technology. So, a few options for our inhumanly strong opponents that occured to me;


If all you have is a hammer:
Imagine a hammer with a handle two inches thick and a bit over three feet long, with a head two feet wide and one foot thick. It is a large hammer, yes? Were it made from iron, it would weigh about half a ton. Were it made from tungsten alloy, a material nearly three times heavier and several times tougher than steel, it would weigh about a ton and a half... and superstrong faeries like Ogres and Trolls would have no problems touching it. Being hit by it would be as bad as being run over by a mack truck going fifty.
What kind of weapon rating would you give that?

Tanking out:
Bulletproof armor is usually behind guns because it faces a very real limitation; it has to be light. The average human can't wear armor heavier than fifty pounds and hope to retain any agility. Now, if you have someone super-strong who has no problem carrying around five thousand pounds...
What armor rating would you give to quarter-inch-thick hardened steel? That kind of armor for a human-sized combatant would weigh 200 pounds or so. What about the same armor from various superalloys? It wouldn't be any thicker thus bulk would be no problem but it would weigh a bit over five hundred pounds and its strength would be three-five times that of steel. Still, five hundred pounds are nothing for someone with inhuman strength and some might or supernatural strength and no might.
And now think of a troll with comparable quality and quantity of armor.

Size does matter:
With a multi-barrel 112 inches long, total length of 19 ft and a total weigh close to 600 pounds, the GAU-8/A is a BFG. It fires 30mm antitank bullets at a rate of 70 rounds per second and can turn tanks into swiss cheese. A superhumanly strong guy or gal that is still human-sized might have some trouble with its bulk but not its weight and a troll or ogre would wield it like we do an assault rifle. Since we have seen Gruffs use machineguns already, why not inhumanly strong opponents with that kind of heavy weaponry? They even have glamours that can hide their size and form until it's too late.
So, what weapon rating would you give the GAU-8/A ?

Well that hammer's shaft couldn't be made of wood.  It'd have to be made of tungsten as well (steel bends from that kind of force.  Pretty sure tungsten does too, but i'll go with it) which would increase the weight alot.   I'd say a 3 or maybe a 4 depending on your level of refresh.  High refresh game go for a 4 if your DM is cool with it. But it seems vastly overpowered.  Plus i'd make it SLOW for balance's sake.


Armor sounds cool.  Would work for a massive non fae. can't see why not. I'd make it slow as well.


The gau.      Its a freaking anti tank weapon.  Unless you're shooting at something like ferrovax or being of similarly ridiculous level of pure might, its gonna one shot anything it touches.

Heck if you even WING a human with a 30mm round its going to take his freaking arm off causing shock and death in 9 out of 10 cases.   I'd put it at plot device level unless youre in a SERIOUSLY high refresh game.
Title: Re: Real heavy weapons/armor?
Post by: YuriPup on August 04, 2010, 06:54:39 PM
On the 30MM--depends on how much of a tech-bane magic is around the ogre is. Mind you the gun needs a power source to drive the barrels and that there is no single fire mode on it. And that 600 LB weight is without the motor to drive it.

Not to mention is way out of the ability for most to purchase--and maybe even steel. Its a lot of iron for a fae. I can't really think of anything else that could get close to using it, other than Ferrovar.

I also would say the recoil is a bitch.
Title: Re: Real heavy weapons/armor?
Post by: Belial666 on August 04, 2010, 07:14:43 PM
Well, to break the average steel handle you need more than ten tons per square inch. To break tungsten superalloys that are four square inches... naah. Superman might be able to do it. Not many other people though.

But why would you make the armor and hammer slow? If the wielder has effective might 10-11 (4-5 ranks plus supernatural strength) the hammer will be heavy but not heavier in comparison than a twenty-pounder for a normal human. If the wielder is a troll warrior (4-5 plus hulking size plus mighty thews plus supernatural strength) he'd have an effective might of 14-15 and the hammer would actually be fairly light for them.
Title: Re: Real heavy weapons/armor?
Post by: ballplayer72 on August 04, 2010, 08:06:45 PM
Well, to break the average steel handle you need more than ten tons per square inch. To break tungsten superalloys that are four square inches... naah. Superman might be able to do it. Not many other people though.

But why would you make the armor and hammer slow? If the wielder has effective might 10-11 (4-5 ranks plus supernatural strength) the hammer will be heavy but not heavier in comparison than a twenty-pounder for a normal human. If the wielder is a troll warrior (4-5 plus hulking size plus mighty thews plus supernatural strength) he'd have an effective might of 14-15 and the hammer would actually be fairly light for them.

you said that the hammer head by itself would weigh "a ton and a half"   thats 3000 lbs.  Thats like a a big f 350.   I don't care how strong your troll is, that thing is going to move SLOW.     doesn't matter how strong you are, you're going to need LEVERAGE to move it.  as harry is wont to say over and over again,  you must still do business with the laws of physics. 

NOTE:   BLAMPIRES.  Theyre super freaking strong.  Like tear through solid steel strong.   Surely strong enough to resist a kick to the face through sheer main strength.  Harry knocks the crap out of one though.  WHY?   Because it weighs as much as a corpse no matter how strong it is and thus if his force exceeds its weight its going to move.

So youre troll is superstrong.  Groovy, have him rip someones arms off and beat them to death with them.  That would be epic.
All epicness aside though, he still has a physical weight.   What is it?    If itsin excess of that hammer, then yeah he can swing that beast around.  However that hammers HEAD weighs 3000 pound.    how much would a 3 ft long, 2 inch thick tungsten bar weigh? (not to mention the cost of BOTH of thsoe amonuts of tungsten would be astronomical) Add those two together.    So youre troll has to exceed that weight to really be able to manhandle that thing withtou going flying.      Hope he doesn't have to walk across any rickety bridges or try to be quiet ever.   Also hope he doesn't have tile floors or something .  He'll crush them with a footfall.  ;D

What Im' saying is if he weighs something closer to reality (say a ton at the outside) then that hammer weighs about half again as much as he does.  Which means he's going to be pretty unable to control his momentum, because it will pick him up off the ground to do so.  Which makes that a very effectivve weapon, but only under the right circumstances because its ungainly as all get out.  Hence the SLOW provision.  Maybe just make it so you ALWAYS get the last attack or something.  Or perhaps less attacks.  Or a penalty to actually hit anything.  It needs something to denote that its an ungainly weapon.  Either THAT or you need to put something on your character that denotes taht he weigshs more than most duellie trucks and how that causes him to effect the world around him.
Title: Re: Real heavy weapons/armor?
Post by: HumAnnoyd on August 04, 2010, 08:33:12 PM
Quote
I also would say the recoil is a bitch.


Exactly.  An A-10 Thunderbolt has to fire their guns in short bursts or the recoil will knock them out of the sky.  And they weigh 30,384 lb unloaded!  I don't care how big your Troll or Ogre is I don't think he will be able to handle that. 
Title: Re: Real heavy weapons/armor?
Post by: Belial666 on August 04, 2010, 09:32:56 PM
Tiny, who is about as big as a troll, is already as big as an elephant. How big is an elephant? 6000 pounds? 8000 pounds? More? If they have the strength to lift the 3000-pound hammer, they won't be unbalanced.
Besides, this is where the armor comes in. An armored troll that can lift its armor will also be much more difficult to unbalance due to the extra, evenly added weight. And yeah, now that armored Blampire will weigh about half a ton. A lot harder to push around, no?

Quote
doesn't matter how strong you are, you're going to need LEVERAGE to move it.
F = M*A. So for ten times the mass and ten times the strength, you have the same acceleration. For a hundred times the strength and a hundred times the mass, you have the same acceleration... provided your support is solid enough to take it. Assuming the troll is just as strong pound-for-pound for a human and it is elephant-sized, it has about fifty to seventy times the strength (I.e. it has an effective might of +12)


As for the GAU-8/A, yeah, it is a bit bigger than what a troll could carry. Maybe a giant? Do giants even exist in Dresdenverse? (since there are Norse gods, there must be giants too)
Title: Re: Real heavy weapons/armor?
Post by: ballplayer72 on August 04, 2010, 11:42:24 PM
Tiny, who is about as big as a troll, is already as big as an elephant. How big is an elephant? 6000 pounds? 8000 pounds? More? If they have the strength to lift the 3000-pound hammer, they won't be unbalanced.
Besides, this is where the armor comes in. An armored troll that can lift its armor will also be much more difficult to unbalance due to the extra, evenly added weight. And yeah, now that armored Blampire will weigh about half a ton. A lot harder to push around, no?
F = M*A. So for ten times the mass and ten times the strength, you have the same acceleration. For a hundred times the strength and a hundred times the mass, you have the same acceleration... provided your support is solid enough to take it. Assuming the troll is just as strong pound-for-pound for a human and it is elephant-sized, it has about fifty to seventy times the strength (I.e. it has an effective might of +12)


As for the GAU-8/A, yeah, it is a bit bigger than what a troll could carry. Maybe a giant? Do giants even exist in Dresdenverse? (since there are Norse gods, there must be giants too)


Depends on the elephant.   African elephants that live on the savannah (savannah elephents) can weigh from 7700 to 26000.  And they are quite a bit larger than tiny.  Largest land mammal.  Tiny was tall like them (they go to 10 to 13 feet and tiny was what like 9-12?) but he wasn't wide and long like them.   make him an even 4000 at the topside.
Its pretty tough to swing around a weapon that weighs a significant fraction of your mass.   I'd say over half of your weight and swinging that thing would send you flying off balance.   Even with the super strength.     Maybe downsize the thing so it doesn't weigh like 3000plus pounds.   Take it to half size at 1500 total and I'd say you're idea makes sense.

Indeed the armor would help with the whole weighing less than your weapon problem. 
Title: Re: Real heavy weapons/armor?
Post by: Belial666 on August 04, 2010, 11:57:15 PM
So, what should be the weapon rating of a 1500 pound hammer? A car is weapon 5. It has a far larger impact area though-the hammer focuses that much power on a square foot or less.
Title: Re: Real heavy weapons/armor?
Post by: Bubba Amon Hotep on August 05, 2010, 12:59:00 AM
Average weight of an adult African Elephant is 4.6 Tons (9,000lbs)

Elephants can carry an Average of 1,200 pounds.

Average running speed 12 to 20 mph (19 to 32 kph) depending on the species, temperate and other factors.
However, most tend to stick to a steady speed of about 4 mph (6 kph).

-----

With those facts, considering the hammer and the armor.  I would say it would be one or the other.  Not both.  And regardless the creature in question would be slower than turtles in peanut butter.

----

How much is 1200 lbs? 
Well the modern Nissan Versa is 2726lbs, and the Classic Beetle weighs in around 2100 lbs.

My point, if a Car is weapon 5, then a huge hammer 1500 lbs is weapon 4.

But take into consideration.  it is easier to miss with a hammer.  Therefore, perhaps it is better to wield a car, its bigger, and you have more area to hit with.  Put it on a chain perhaps and swing it around? 

If we are going off the deep end and coming up with weapons for the HULK to wield, lets go off the deep end.
Title: Re: Real heavy weapons/armor?
Post by: CableRouter on August 05, 2010, 02:23:42 AM
Tanking out:
Bulletproof armor is usually behind guns because it faces a very real limitation; it has to be light. The average human can't wear armor heavier than fifty pounds and hope to retain any agility. Now, if you have someone super-strong who has no problem carrying around five thousand pounds...
What armor rating would you give to quarter-inch-thick hardened steel? That kind of armor for a human-sized combatant would weigh 200 pounds or so.
Given modern firearms to attack it with, a quarter inch of steel isn't bulletproof and is barely bullet resistant.  A modern .308 rifle could penetrate that to a couple hundred yards, modern military ammo (like Soviet or Chinese ammo with mild steel cores to cut costs) can penetrate a quarter inch of steel at 500 yards.  Modern armor piercing ammo could penetrate half an inch of steel armor plate at 300 yards and a quarter inch at double or triple that.  A .50 BMG rifle, which is sure to be dragged out if armored trolls are on the offense, can easily penetrate an inch of steel plate at 200 yards with standard ammo.

Quote
What about the same armor from various superalloys?
In generate these alloys aren't used as armor because when a plate gets too rigid it shatters much easier, other much denser alloys are often softer than steel, like depleted Uranium.  In general you don't end up saving a whole lot of weight, it just ends up thinner for the same protection.  But at this point you're talking about 3/4 of a ton on a man sized suit to keep out anything smaller than a .50 BMG rifle with Armor Piercing ammunition.

Quote
It wouldn't be any thicker thus bulk would be no problem but it would weigh a bit over five hundred pounds and its strength would be three-five times that of steel. Still, five hundred pounds are nothing for someone with inhuman strength and some might or supernatural strength and no might.
And now think of a troll with comparable quality and quantity of armor.

The other problem is that weight grows exponentially with size.  Double the size and you need eight times as much armor for the same protection; a 12' troll is going to need 6 tons of armor to keep out .50 rifle rounds and at that point someone's just going to treat it as the fae equivalent of a tank and hit it with a rocket.  Or magic, how well do you think a troll can swim in quicksand while wearing 6 tons of metal armor?

Quote
Size does matter:
With a multi-barrel 112 inches long, total length of 19 ft and a total weigh close to 600 pounds, the GAU-8/A is a BFG. It fires 30mm antitank bullets at a rate of 70 rounds per second and can turn tanks into swiss cheese. A superhumanly strong guy or gal that is still human-sized might have some trouble with its bulk but not its weight and a troll or ogre would wield it like we do an assault rifle. Since we have seen Gruffs use machineguns already, why not inhumanly strong opponents with that kind of heavy weaponry? They even have glamours that can hide their size and form until it's too late.
So, what weapon rating would you give the GAU-8/A ?

The GAU-8 is a tad more than 600 pounds.  Fully assembled it weighs just over 4,000 pounds with ammunition and that's without a power supply to rotate the barrels.  It's also a tad unwieldy, it's longer than a car and the ammo drum is about as big around as a volkswagen beetle.  You don't casually pick one up and swing it around without a plane sized mount for it.  For the same reason that if you could lift 50,000 tons you couldn't pick up a building and throw it - you'd just come away with two handfuls of concrete and the building would still be intact.

As for weapon rating?  The FATE system doesn't really model armor or damage above a personal scale, it just becomes a plot device at that point.  I've got better systems to use if a GAU-8 Avenger Cannon becomes a standard ranged weapon I need to stat out.

Also:
Quote from: HumAnnoyd
An A-10 Thunderbolt has to fire their guns in short bursts or the recoil will knock them out of the sky.
Complete myth I'm afraid, there isn't even enough recoil on that thing to even slow it down a few mph when it fires.  The reason it fires in short bursts is to avoid burning out the barrels through overheating.
Title: Re: Real heavy weapons/armor?
Post by: TheMouse on August 05, 2010, 02:30:12 AM
F = M*A. So for ten times the mass and ten times the strength, you have the same acceleration. For a hundred times the strength and a hundred times the mass, you have the same acceleration...

You would seem to be using the word "acceleration" incorrectly in terms of physics. I posit that you're looking for "velocity" for this conversation.
Title: Re: Real heavy weapons/armor?
Post by: Belial666 on August 05, 2010, 03:05:26 AM
OK, looked up a few actual stats;

Normal orge effective might: +8 Ogre size: large as a pickup truck. So I'd peg it at 4-5 meters tall. If its torso is about two meters tall, two wide and one thick, that's already four tons. (do note that normal ogres have no might skill - which is strange IMHO)
Tiny's effective might: +10. Tiny's size: about as big as an elephant. He wields a sword long as a car.
Magog's effective might: +19. Magog is about 800 pounds.

Might required to lift large furniture without penalty: +7
Might required to lift motorcycle without penalty: +11
Might required to lift medium car without penalty: +13

Might required to break metal door/thin interior wall: +6
Might required to break thin exterior wall: +8
Might required to break vault door: +12


So the effective might required to wield both one ton of armor and one ton of hammer (two tons total) without penalty is +13. That's might +5, mighty thews and supernatural strength, or a refresh cost of -5. An ogre or vampire with the might skill could do it. Someone with all strength boosts at submerged (Mythic ST, Hulking Size, Mighty Thews, +5 might) has enough might to lift locomotives and peel off vault doors without rolling.
Title: Re: Real heavy weapons/armor?
Post by: ballplayer72 on August 05, 2010, 04:31:41 AM
So, what should be the weapon rating of a 1500 pound hammer? A car is weapon 5. It has a far larger impact area though-the hammer focuses that much power on a square foot or less.


WEll 1500 lbs is about as much as an 1500 or f 150 truck (the normal truck.  Not the SUPEERRRRR big ones, just the normal v 8 style trucks) give or take a bit. EDIT those numbers be offf.  teach me to drink daquiris and post factoids :P     I'd still go with about a 5.  maybe a 4.      It hits with the force of a swung car.

Make it a 5 i guess.
Title: Re: Real heavy weapons/armor?
Post by: ralexs1991 on August 05, 2010, 07:48:31 AM

It hits with the force of a swung car.

Make it a 5 i guess.

I'm tempted to give it higher than that just because all of that force is going to be focused into a far smaller area that much force in such a small area would pulverize bone and liquefy organs and soft tissue pretty much an instant kill
Title: Re: Real heavy weapons/armor?
Post by: YuriPup on August 05, 2010, 01:07:23 PM
Frankly, I think once you can keep the business end of a 50 pound weapon moving, you don't really need more. There is no such thing as parrying that kind of speed and weight and really 1500 LB hammers and 30mm auto-cannon are all just matters of the type of bloodstain you leave behind after getting hit.

But I don't think that a 30MM auto-cannon is going to be an effective weapon for anyone--the fey will either be allergic or not understand it (or both) and I think the technical competence to jury-rig a 30MM AC is going to rare. (Though having the weapon degrade as the bad guy use it is an interesting idea.)

That said, just what freaking power level are you at that you think you need to shoot GAU-8 at your PCs?
Title: Re: Real heavy weapons/armor?
Post by: Barrington on August 06, 2010, 12:47:11 AM
If you keep the laws of physics intact in your game, nothing Tiny-sized, no matter how strong, could control a GAU-8 in sustained bursts. Like any full-auto, the recoil would build exponentially as you kept firing, and it would spin the wielder around. Now, however, a small-arms caliber rotary weapon is totally within the realm of possibility. Give your troll or whatever an M134 Minigun with, perhaps, longer barrels and some kind of custom action housing for him to hold it, and you've got a formidable weapon. Or, if you simply must have a BFG, give him an M2 Browning .50 BMG. It'd still be hard to control, but it would be more within the realm of possibility for something with Hulking Size. And let's face it, both the .50 BMG and the 30mm are anti-aircraft rounds. There's no functional difference between the two. Anything you shot with them would be dead in one round.
Title: Re: Real heavy weapons/armor?
Post by: Belial666 on August 06, 2010, 01:16:48 AM
An A-10 weighs about 11 tons and it is airborne. It can fire a GAU-8/A just fine.
A troll with superb might is 15 feet tall, weighs 4 tons and can wear 3 tons of armor plus use the 2-ton GAU-8/A without penalty. It can brace on the ground, something the A-10 cannot do.

I don't see the troll having a recoil problem. It's only 20% lighter but can brace.


As for the damage dealt by a 30mm round, a grenade is weapon 4. Being hit by a speeding car is weapon 5. Being hit by Harry's fuego that can burn through exterior walls and carve coffin-sized dents in the pavement is weapon 8. Even if you put the GAU-8/A as damaging as Harry's fuego, lots of heavy-hitters are going to need several bursts from it to go down. (the aforementioned troll would need two when unarmored. Magog would need eight.)
Title: Re: Real heavy weapons/armor?
Post by: Barrington on August 06, 2010, 02:21:53 AM
While it may be true that Harry's fireballs carry the force of an artillery shell when he's good and pissed off, you have to factor in the rate of fire of the GAU-8. This thing fires thirty or forty rounds per SECOND, and each of it's individual bullets hits at Weapon:8. Nothing we've seen in the books so far could take a sustained burst from that except maybe the Faerie queens and Ferrovax.
Title: Re: Real heavy weapons/armor?
Post by: ballplayer72 on August 06, 2010, 03:57:39 AM
If you keep the laws of physics intact in your game, nothing Tiny-sized, no matter how strong, could control a GAU-8 in sustained bursts. Like any full-auto, the recoil would build exponentially as you kept firing, and it would spin the wielder around. Now, however, a small-arms caliber rotary weapon is totally within the realm of possibility. Give your troll or whatever an M134 Minigun with, perhaps, longer barrels and some kind of custom action housing for him to hold it, and you've got a formidable weapon. Or, if you simply must have a BFG, give him an M2 Browning .50 BMG. It'd still be hard to control, but it would be more within the realm of possibility for something with Hulking Size. And let's face it, both the .50 BMG and the 30mm are anti-aircraft rounds. There's no functional difference between the two. Anything you shot with them would be dead in one round.

heres an idea i jacked from a david weber sci fi series that starts with "through the looking glass".   One of the space marines is nicknamed two gun for his ability to use two pistols at once (which is REALLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLY freakin hard to do effectively) .  They have power armor.     So what does the company armorer make for him to use?    he takes two barret .50 cal sniper rifles chops the barrels down and extends the clips.    Presto .50 BMG semi auto pistols.  Now thats a gun.
Title: Re: Real heavy weapons/armor?
Post by: Todjaeger on August 06, 2010, 04:49:45 AM
An A-10 weighs about 11 tons and it is airborne. It can fire a GAU-8/A just fine.
A troll with superb might is 15 feet tall, weighs 4 tons and can wear 3 tons of armor plus use the 2-ton GAU-8/A without penalty. It can brace on the ground, something the A-10 cannot do.

I don't see the troll having a recoil problem. It's only 20% lighter but can brace.


As for the damage dealt by a 30mm round, a grenade is weapon 4. Being hit by a speeding car is weapon 5. Being hit by Harry's fuego that can burn through exterior walls and carve coffin-sized dents in the pavement is weapon 8. Even if you put the GAU-8/A as damaging as Harry's fuego, lots of heavy-hitters are going to need several bursts from it to go down. (the aforementioned troll would need two when unarmored. Magog would need eight.)

Just a few things to note.  An A-10 has a MTOW (Maximum Takeoff Weight) of 51,000 lbs/25.5 tons, with a max weapons load of 16,000 lbs.  That leaves ~17.5 tons needed for the aircraft and fuel.  Incidentally, an A-10 only weighing 17.5 tons would not be able to fire the 'Avenger' as it would not be carrying ammunition either.  So for the purposes of 'realism' a troll wearing armor as mentioned would weigh ~1/3 the minimum weight of an A-10 firing the GAU-8. 

I will check with some of my defence contacts to see if I can find out what the force of recoil is when firing the gun, but it is sufficient to reduce the speed of an A-10 in flight.  Given that an A-10 has a pair of engines each rated at 9,000 lbs static thrust and would itself already be moving at great speed (at least compared to anything other than another aircraft) and would therefore have a significant amount of inertia to overcome in order to force the speed of an A-10 to decrease, even by just a couple of miles, it would suggest that the recoil coming from the GAU-8 'Avenger' would be more than a troll could handle.  Even if it were wearing 75% of its own weight in body armour.

Another thing to keep in mind, just where exactly could something like a troll stand while armored like that, with or without the GAU-8?  The ground pressure that would be exerted by having ~7 tons spread out over the surface area of the trolls feet would too much for the floors of most buildings (apart from the basement/foundation).  How many buildings are built in such a fashion to allow heavy SUV-weighted objects to put in without reinforcing?
Title: Re: Real heavy weapons/armor?
Post by: Bubba Amon Hotep on August 06, 2010, 06:59:28 AM
heres an idea i jacked from a david weber sci fi series that starts with "through the looking glass".   One of the space marines is nicknamed two gun for his ability to use two pistols at once (which is REALLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLY freakin hard to do effectively) .  They have power armor.     So what does the company armorer make for him to use?    he takes two barret .50 cal sniper rifles chops the barrels down and extends the clips.    Presto .50 BMG semi auto pistols.  Now thats a gun.

without chopping barrels off rifles you can get that size gun in reality.  A troll might eve be able to shoot it one handed if you modified the grips and triggers to fit his oversize hands.

Here is a link . . .http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/.50_caliber_handguns (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/.50_caliber_handguns)
Title: Re: Real heavy weapons/armor?
Post by: Belial666 on August 06, 2010, 10:25:05 AM
The recoil of the GAU-8/A in high setting is a bit over 45 kN. That would be half the armored troll's weight or so-about equal to a 100-pound human firing an AK-47 full-auto. High but not impossible.
As for what buildings can support 9-10 tons? Well, not many. But the troll is supposed to be a battlefield tank, not an urban setting investigator. Half-inch superalloy armor, antitank weaponry, what else could it be?


Incidentally, a submerged changeling or scion character with Might +5, Weapons +5, Athletics +4, Resources +4 and the following powers and stunts:
Hulking Size [-2], Supernatural Might [-4], Size Does Matter: +1 to attack and damage with weapons weighing over 200 pounds [-1], Supernatural Durability with Silver catch [-1] and Windfall [-1]
Could both buy and use the armor and the weapon.

So the question is, what's weapon rating for GAU-8 1-sec burst and what's armor rating for tank armor?
I'd say that since a burst from the GAU-8 is slightly less damaging than something that could tear down a small house so... weapon 7?
And light tank armor would be what, armor 5?
Title: Re: Real heavy weapons/armor?
Post by: DominicJ on August 06, 2010, 12:31:32 PM
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/GAU-8_Avenger#Recoil

The recoil of the cannon is actualy slightly more than a single engine, but no where near enough to slow the aircraft enough for it to crash, as long as its operating on both engines.
Still, you'd never got off the ground if you were firing.
Title: Re: Real heavy weapons/armor?
Post by: Belial666 on August 06, 2010, 12:56:32 PM
Which reminds me;

Quote
Valera Smith
High Concept: Cute Nephilim Trouble: Dolls for the Little Girl?
Other Aspects: Angelic Interlopers, Compensating for Something?, My Father is a Fallen Basterd, My Weapons-fu is Better than Yours, Legendary Temper
Refresh: Submerged, 1 fate point.  Physical OOOO(OOOO) Social OOO  Mental OOOO

Born to a temperamental Irish mother -father unknown- Valera Smith is firmly on the small side for a human... but compensates for it with a fiery personality, fiery-red looks and a freakish strength for her little frame. The first time her strength became apparent was when she saved her mother by throwing an armed burglar half across the house, through a barred window and several floors down... at the age of thirteen. Since then, her strength has steadily increased-though she barely grew an inch over five feet.
When she became eighteen years of age, a suit of arms and armor that fit her like an old glove magically appeared in her own room. Made of a dark, dull metal, the inch-thick armor weighed as much as a fair-sized car and the hammer that complemented it about a third as much. That was not a terribly great weight for Valera - in fact, she felt like one of those knights in shining armor donning them. And then came the second surprise; the armor could look like normal clothing as long as she didn't hold the hammer ready or did not test its sturdiness by hitting it.
Filled with glee, Valera got outside to test her new birthday present; she'd later come to know the full extent of the supernatural world and be visited -repeatedly- by her sinister father and his even more annoying (but in a good way) enemies...

SKILLS
+5 Might, Weapons
+4 Rapport, Discipline
+3 Conviction, Endurance
+2 Presence, Athletics, Fists
+1 Stealth, Contacts, Scholarship, Lore, Alertness

POWERS AND STUNTS
[-4] Supernatural Strength
[-4] Supernatural Toughness
[+3] Catch is Silver
[+0] Inhuman Constitution (like the wizard's, to reflect that she eventually heals and she does not normally age)
[-1] Monstrous Strength (as per mighty thews-but without the bulky muscles)
[-1] Size Does Matter: +1 weapon rolls with oversized weaponry
[-1] Waif-Fu: use weapons for defense rolls
[-1] Item of Power: The Arms of Talus
  * It is inch-thick armor from superheavy metal; weighs 2 tons and needs effective might 12 to wear comfortably but is armor rating 5
  * It is large-headed hammer from superheavy metal; weighs as much as a small car and needs effective might 13 to wield comfortably but is weapon rating 5
  * Indestructible
  * One-time Discount. +2 refresh
  * Human Guise
  * Physical Immunity: the wearer takes half effect from magic (includes magic that would be beneficial). -2 refresh
  * True Strike. -1 refresh


That's one really tough little girl. :) She is adult in human terms but since she's a Nephilim, she's nowhere near grown yet. She'll eventually have Mythic Toughness, Mythic Strength, Hulking Size, Massive Blows (stunt for +2 damage for heavy melee weapons), Smash Armor (stunt to reduce armor by 2) and maybe full immunity to magic when she unlocks the full potential of her armor.
She'll be 20ish refresh by then but she'll be a freakishly powerful combatant. Weapon 13 attack, Legendary attack and defense, 12 boxes physical stress and heavy armor. And she'll be able to use a tank for a thrown weapon with her +22 Might, provided the ground beneath her feet does not cave in or something.

Here's the full-grown version:

Quote
Valera Smith
High Concept: Cute Nephilim Trouble: Painfully Obvious
Other Aspects: Angelic Interlopers, Compensating for Something?, My Father is a Fallen Basterd, My Weapons-fu is Better than Yours, Legendary Temper
Refresh: 20 refresh, 1 fate point.  Physical OOOOOO(OOOOOO) Social OOOO  Mental OOOO

Backstory:
Born to a temperamental Irish mother -father unknown- Valera Smith is firmly on the small side for a human... but compensates for it with a fiery personality, fiery-red looks and a freakish strength for her little frame. The first time her strength became apparent was when she saved her mother by throwing an armed burglar half across the house, through a barred window and several floors down... at the age of thirteen. Since then, her strength has steadily increased-though she barely grew an inch over five feet.
When she became eighteen years of age, a suit of arms and armor that fit her like an old glove magically appeared in her own room. Made of a dark, dull metal, the inch-thick armor weighed as much as a fair-sized car and the hammer that complemented it about a third as much. That was not a terribly great weight for Valera - in fact, she felt like one of those knights in shining armor donning them. And then came the second surprise; the armor could look like normal clothing as long as she didn't hold the hammer ready or did not test its sturdiness by hitting it.
Filled with glee, Valera got outside to test her new birthday present; she'd later come to know the full extent of the supernatural world and be visited -repeatedly- by her sinister father and his even more annoying (but in a good way) enemies...

Current Events:
Nearly four decades have passed since the seventies and Valera's awakening to the supernatural world. Now a full-grown woman, she is one of the tallest people in the world at 7 ft 7 inches and 7 thirteenths of an inch. Unlike normal humans with giantism she has a strong build, resembling an athletic 5-foot girl in analogies. Despite her relatively small size compared to some gargantuan supernaturals, her strength rivals that of a dragon or a very strong giant; she can lift nearly two hundred tons without any great effort and could throw around tanks or small locomotives.
Valera has now taken part in hundreds of supernatural conflicts, especially the hidden supernatural parts of several "human" conflicts around the world. She is well-known as a fighter for a good cause and even more for her legendary temper; when you can flatten a tank if angered, most people learn to tiptoe around you.
Oddly enough, her weapons and armor have grown with her, slowly adapting to her greater size. Most people think that's due to their magical nature though Valera suspects they've had help from the unnamed interlopers in her life.

SKILLS
+6 Might, Weapons, Intimidate
+5 Discipline, Fists, Resources
+4 Rapport, Endurance, Presence
+3 Conviction, Craftsmanship, Athletics
+2 Alertness, Lore, Contacts
+1 Guns, Scholarship, Drive (heavy vehicles only)

POWERS AND STUNTS
[-6] Mythic Strength
[-6] Mythic Toughness
[-2] Hulking Size
[+3] Catch is Silver
[+0] Inhuman Constitution (like the wizard's, to reflect that she eventually heals and she does not normally age)
[-1] Monstrous Strength (as per mighty thews-but without the bulky muscles)
[-1] Size Does Matter: +1 weapon rolls with oversized weaponry
[-1] Weaponsmaster: use weapons for defense rolls
[-1] Massive Blows: +2 damage with massive melee weapons
[-1] Smash Armor: negate up to 2 armor with melee weapons
[-1] Heavy Weapons Expert: use weapons instead of guns for attacks with heavy weapons such as RPGs, missile-launchers, autocannons and giant-portable tankbusters
[-2] Item of Power: The Arms of Talus
  * It is inch-thick armor from superheavy metal; weighs 10 tons and needs effective might 14 to wear comfortably but is armor rating 5
  * It is large-headed hammer from superheavy metal; weighs as much as a truck and needs effective might 15 to wield comfortably but is weapon rating 5
  * Indestructible
  * One-time Discount. +2 refresh
  * Human Guise
  * Physical Immunity: immune to magic (includes magic that would be beneficial). -3 refresh
  * True Strike. -1 refresh

ITEMS AND RESOURCES

Modified GAU-8: this two-ton weapon is a modified version of the avenger autocannon of an A-10 Thunderbolt. The frame has been modified to be mounted on the back and left hip of a huge humanoid and the hydraulic rotors have been replaced by an old gatlin mechanical equivalent that is rotated by hand. The avenger having a non-automatic mechanism and specifically fine-tuned against malfunction, this weapon is highly resistant to hexing. It has an effective range of 0.7 miles and is weapon 7 with armor-piercing (-2 armor) ammunition.
GPAD: this giant-portable surface-to-air missile launcher uses targeting lasers to guide 85-pound missiles with HEAT tandem warheads-alternatively, the missiles have their own heat-seeking mechanism if the wielder wants to fire and forget. Extremely sensitive to magic, it is only good against non-supernatural targets. Adapted from the Brimstone and Starstreak line of missiles and with a quick-reload mechanism, it has an operational radius of 7 miles, can hit both air and surface targets if the wielder uses the targeting laser and is weapon 8, +4 vs objects and machines.
Electronic Headgear: In addition to fine-crafted telescopic sights and an encrypted comm, this set also confers infravision and sound amplification for night operations.

Title: Re: Real heavy weapons/armor?
Post by: ballplayer72 on August 06, 2010, 02:13:33 PM
without chopping barrels off rifles you can get that size gun in reality.  A troll might eve be able to shoot it one handed if you modified the grips and triggers to fit his oversize hands.

Here is a link . . .http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/.50_caliber_handguns (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/.50_caliber_handguns)


no no,   you misunderstand the bigness of the round.     those handguns (smith and wesson 500 and the desert eagle) shoot .50 AE or action express.  Its a pistol round.
The guns im' talking about shoot .50 BMG which is a rifle round that is.. well...  here just look at the link.  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/.50_BMG
its basically a bullet thats a little smaller than a full size crossbow bolt.     And it travels faster than the speed of sound.   
Put it this way, if I were to chop off the barrel of a barret .50 cal and use it as a pistol, the sheer force of using it one handed, un braced by sandbags and the prone shooting position, would break my arm like a twig.    Its a BIG round.  Much larger and packing alot more speed than a .50 AE pistol round.   Mostly because .50 AE is made for a pistol and doesn't shoot very far, and the .50 BMG will shoot up to 1 anda half miles accurately with a trained sniper (think thats the longest shot on record iirc)
Title: Re: Real heavy weapons/armor?
Post by: ballplayer72 on August 06, 2010, 02:17:16 PM
The recoil of the GAU-8/A in high setting is a bit over 45 kN. That would be half the armored troll's weight or so-about equal to a 100-pound human firing an AK-47 full-auto. High but not impossible.
As for what buildings can support 9-10 tons? Well, not many. But the troll is supposed to be a battlefield tank, not an urban setting investigator. Half-inch superalloy armor, antitank weaponry, what else could it be?


Incidentally, a submerged changeling or scion character with Might +5, Weapons +5, Athletics +4, Resources +4 and the following powers and stunts:
Hulking Size [-2], Supernatural Might [-4], Size Does Matter: +1 to attack and damage with weapons weighing over 200 pounds [-1], Supernatural Durability with Silver catch [-1] and Windfall [-1]
Could both buy and use the armor and the weapon.

So the question is, what's weapon rating for GAU-8 1-sec burst and what's armor rating for tank armor?
I'd say that since a burst from the GAU-8 is slightly less damaging than something that could tear down a small house so... weapon 7?
And light tank armor would be what, armor 5?

Well a sustained burst from a gau could conceivably destroy a small house.  you could almost cut the thing in half with it.    and its made to slice through couple inch thick tank armor.    that gun is just too overpowered unless youre trying to fight some sort of pitched war against SUPER high refresh enemies.
Title: Re: Real heavy weapons/armor?
Post by: ballplayer72 on August 06, 2010, 02:21:30 PM
Which reminds me;


That's one really tough little girl. :) She is adult in human terms but since she's a Nephilim, she's nowhere near grown yet. She'll eventually have Mythic Toughness, Mythic Strength, Hulking Size, Massive Blows (stunt for +2 damage for heavy melee weapons), Smash Armor (stunt to reduce armor by 2) and maybe full immunity to magic when she unlocks the full potential of her armor.
She'll be 20ish refresh by then but she'll be a freakishly powerful combatant. Weapon 13 attack, Legendary attack and defense, 12 boxes physical stress and heavy armor. And she'll be able to use a tank for a thrown weapon with her +22 Might, provided the ground beneath her feet does not cave in or something.

Here's the full-grown version:


thats one freakishly overpowered character.   that apparently still doesn't have to do business with laws of physics.   Fun concept though if your GM doesn't mind.  Everybody likes to tank  ;D
Title: Re: Real heavy weapons/armor?
Post by: Belial666 on August 06, 2010, 02:42:36 PM
She's actually weaker than the rules tould technically make her. Drop the hammer (but not True Strike), the armor, the supernatural toughness, the monstrous might needed to wield them and the immunity to magic and replace them with a longsword, advanced tactical suit and Physical Immunity with Catch Holy Stuff (researchable)
She is now weapon 7 instead of weapon 9 but she is immune to all damage unless it's holy stuff... and she still has armor 3 against holy stuff and an epic defense.


As for the GAU, a sustained burst would probably count as more than one exchange. Besides, weak exterior walls only have a stress track of 8. With a weapon 7 and a good roll to hit, you could deal 9 stress and break the wall. On the other hand, an ogre has a stress track of 10 and armor 2. You'd need five good hits with weapon 7 to take them out. That's why it says ogres are bulletproof.
(But a good hit at legendary attack with weapon 7 could take out the Ogre in one blow and Valera has Legendary and either weapon 7 or weapon 9, depending on if she wields her big hammer or a longsword)
Title: Re: Real heavy weapons/armor?
Post by: YuriPup on August 06, 2010, 03:36:31 PM
heres an idea i jacked from a david weber sci fi series that starts with "through the looking glass".   One of the space marines is nicknamed two gun for his ability to use two pistols at once (which is REALLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLY freakin hard to do effectively) .  They have power armor.     So what does the company armorer make for him to use?    he takes two barret .50 cal sniper rifles chops the barrels down and extends the clips.    Presto .50 BMG semi auto pistols.  Now thats a gun.

That's Ringo, not Weber.

And I still want to know what the PCs are like, that you are pointing GAU-8s at.

BTW, just how strong is Tiny? Firing the gun is 10,000 lbs of load. For me, I probably wouldn't include the GAU-8 in my game. If I were it would do a damage of [[ plot ]] and an effect of [[ plot ]] on the shooter. In my book you need something bigger than Tiny to deal with the recoil, reasonably, of a GAU-8.

However, had you brought that up for me as a player, before giving me a chance to give it a physics smell test I would have declared "DIVE FOR COVER!"

Title: Re: Real heavy weapons/armor?
Post by: tymire on August 06, 2010, 04:08:01 PM
Hehe this reminds me of one of the first posts I read.  The characters in this game typically fall under the rock, paper, or scissors categories.  And this is definitely a Rock, so just need to watch out for paper   ;D.  Not too sure if 7-8 classifies as hulking, but without glamour, just living could be problematic. 

Assuming the character was approved, the only thing I would be extremely careful of is how powerful the rest of the group is.  Making a tank this specialized could very well have him/her increase the adversaries power to compensate, and if the rest of the group cannot handle it… well...  it makes for a short session.

My first thoughts on the gun where along the lines of awsome, talk about putting holes in things nm getting all the resisting arrest, cop killing, charges, ect.  My second thoughts on the gun was WOW what a piece of wonderfully bulky heavy junk that the first person with magic will hex.  Also remember bulk, center of mass, and leverage plays a huge part in things, it's cool to ignore that in supers games, but if going with core DV it's definately not (which helps out the lowly mortals quite a bit).
Title: Re: Real heavy weapons/armor?
Post by: ballplayer72 on August 06, 2010, 04:18:33 PM
She's actually weaker than the rules tould technically make her. Drop the hammer (but not True Strike), the armor, the supernatural toughness, the monstrous might needed to wield them and the immunity to magic and replace them with a longsword, advanced tactical suit and Physical Immunity with Catch Holy Stuff (researchable)
She is now weapon 7 instead of weapon 9 but she is immune to all damage unless it's holy stuff... and she still has armor 3 against holy stuff and an epic defense.


As for the GAU, a sustained burst would probably count as more than one exchange. Besides, weak exterior walls only have a stress track of 8. With a weapon 7 and a good roll to hit, you could deal 9 stress and break the wall. On the other hand, an ogre has a stress track of 10 and armor 2. You'd need five good hits with weapon 7 to take them out. That's why it says ogres are bulletproof.
(But a good hit at legendary attack with weapon 7 could take out the Ogre in one blow and Valera has Legendary and either weapon 7 or weapon 9, depending on if she wields her big hammer or a longsword)

Gotta remember the GAU shoots about 30 bullets in a single second.   Thats 30 weapon 7s hitting at once.  If thats not legendary damage then I don't know what is  ;D

Just because you could add power doesn't mean she aint still overpowered.  At least for a normal game.  If youre going for taking on things like lea and eldest all the time then yeah i could see that making some sense.   Its just a balance issue, because she's practically invincible.
Heres an idea:  Post the break down of some of the common enemies she'd be facing and compare them.   If she can squash them like the faceless hordes in dynasty warriors games then she's probably a bit overpowered.


Title: Re: Real heavy weapons/armor?
Post by: ballplayer72 on August 06, 2010, 04:22:41 PM
That's Ringo, not Weber.

And I still want to know what the PCs are like, that you are pointing GAU-8s at.

BTW, just how strong is Tiny? Firing the gun is 10,000 lbs of load. For me, I probably wouldn't include the GAU-8 in my game. If I were it would do a damage of [[ plot ]] and an effect of [[ plot ]] on the shooter. In my book you need something bigger than Tiny to deal with the recoil, reasonably, of a GAU-8.

However, had you brought that up for me as a player, before giving me a chance to give it a physics smell test I would have declared "DIVE FOR COVER!"



Ah youre right! its been awhile since i read it and i just finished webers massive sci fi "safehold" series (think thats the name of the series. starts with "off armageddon reef")


yeah i'd let him use it.  once.     it would epically destroy whatever he shot but either break his arm or send him flying or something like that, and the landing would break the cannon.  but when i dm i'm kind of a dick so maybe thats just me
Title: Re: Real heavy weapons/armor?
Post by: YuriPup on August 06, 2010, 04:45:31 PM
Bah! Safehold isn't anywhere near massive.

Try the Weber's Honorverse stuff if you want massive. On Basilisk Station is the first. Mission of Honor is 12. (Mission of Honor ends with a great scene.) The there are 4 side plot novels too. (The Torch line and the Shadows line...) And he as a new one apparently, Out Of Darkness, in a new 'verse. No clue if it is stand alone or not.
Title: Re: Real heavy weapons/armor?
Post by: ballplayer72 on August 06, 2010, 06:15:31 PM
Bah! Safehold isn't anywhere near massive.

Try the Weber's Honorverse stuff if you want massive. On Basilisk Station is the first. Mission of Honor is 12. (Mission of Honor ends with a great scene.) The there are 4 side plot novels too. (The Torch line and the Shadows line...) And he as a new one apparently, Out Of Darkness, in a new 'verse. No clue if it is stand alone or not.

Safehold has 4 books.  And they haven't even gotten OFF safehold yet. They still have to rebuild a technic civilization and refind the gbaba so they can kill them all to death.     Several more just to get off safehold.  Several after that to take the gbaba.  Big series to me  ;D
Title: Re: Real heavy weapons/armor?
Post by: Belial666 on August 06, 2010, 06:55:31 PM
@ballplayer72
I am counting the thirty bullets as weapon 7, not a single bullet; a single bullet wouldn't break down a wall. Sort of like an AK-47 is weapon 3 for a burst, not a single bullet.

@YuriPup
Assume a PC with supernatural toughness and an athletics as good as the equivalent attacker's skill plus endurance +3. That PC could be "Feet in the Water" and still have refresh left. The following are true;
1) The PC has a stress track of 8 boxes plus armor 2.
3) A normal hit from the attacker's GAU-8 is going to do 7 stress; 7 from the GAU-8 weapon rating plus ignoring 2 armor from AP rounds.
4) The GAU-wielding attacker needs to score 3 average hits for a takeout or get really lucky.
Now let's do the same math for a normal tank;
1) The tank has mythic toughness, hulking size and thus stress track 12 and armor 3. (it also has physical immunity to weapons 3 or less but that's irrelevant)
2) A normal hit from the attacker's GAU-8 is going to do 11 stress; 7 from the GAU-8 weapon rating, -1 from the tank's armor which is reduced due to AP rounds, +4 from the attacker's skill since the tank has no athletics skill to dodge plus a +1 due to hulking size being easier to hit.
3) The tank is going down in 3 average hits or one really lucky hit.

So, as you can see, a "Feet in the Water" tank is just as hard to kill with a GAU-8 as a normal, mechanical tank. Yes, a trained gunner is going to have stunts to improve his skill with weapons and thus kill both tanks in one burst each but we are talking Feet in the Water here. A submerged tank is significantly tougher (the submerged version of Valera could survive over twelve average attack rolls with her defenses)
And the Submerged Valera is neither strong enough nor bulky enough to use the GAU-8 yet. Her 20-refresh version? Certainly.

@tymire
The GAU-8 is not an automatic weapon, it is not chain-fed or clip-fed (it takes individual bullets) and was made with anti-jamming in mind. Once you remove the hydraulic/electric rotors and replace them with a hand-moved rotor that a superhumanly strong character could move, you've kicked the tech back to 1860. Yes, THAT far back. Only a very powerful wizard could jam it and only if he was intentionally trying to hex. And yes, the 20-refresh version of Valera took that into account.
Title: Re: Real heavy weapons/armor?
Post by: ballplayer72 on August 06, 2010, 07:05:01 PM
@ballplayer72
I am counting the thirty bullets as weapon 7, not a single bullet; a single bullet wouldn't break down a wall. Sort of like an AK-47 is weapon 3 for a burst, not a single bullet.

@YuriPup
Assume a PC with supernatural toughness and an athletics as good as the equivalent attacker's skill plus endurance +3. That PC could be "Feet in the Water" and still have refresh left. The following are true;
1) The PC has a stress track of 8 boxes plus armor 2.
3) A normal hit from the attacker's GAU-8 is going to do 7 stress; 7 from the GAU-8 weapon rating plus ignoring 2 armor from AP rounds.
4) The GAU-wielding attacker needs to score 3 average hits for a takeout or get really lucky.
Now let's do the same math for a normal tank;
1) The tank has mythic toughness, hulking size and thus stress track 12 and armor 3. (it also has physical immunity to weapons 3 or less but that's irrelevant)
2) A normal hit from the attacker's GAU-8 is going to do 11 stress; 7 from the GAU-8 weapon rating, -1 from the tank's armor which is reduced due to AP rounds, +4 from the attacker's skill since the tank has no athletics skill to dodge plus a +1 due to hulking size being easier to hit.
3) The tank is going down in 3 average hits or one really lucky hit.

So, as you can see, a "Feet in the Water" tank is just as hard to kill with a GAU-8 as a normal, mechanical tank. Yes, a trained gunner is going to have stunts to improve his skill with weapons and thus kill both tanks in one burst each but we are talking Feet in the Water here. A submerged tank is significantly tougher (the submerged version of Valera could survive over twelve average attack rolls with her defenses)
And the Submerged Valera is neither strong enough nor bulky enough to use the GAU-8 yet. Her 20-refresh version? Certainly.

@tymire
The GAU-8 is not an automatic weapon, it is not chain-fed or clip-fed (it takes individual bullets) and was made with anti-jamming in mind. Once you remove the hydraulic/electric rotors and replace them with a hand-moved rotor that a superhumanly strong character could move, you've kicked the tech back to 1860. Yes, THAT far back. Only a very powerful wizard could jam it and only if he was intentionally trying to hex. And yes, the 20-refresh version of Valera took that into account.


well a single bullet from a gau will punch through several inches of tank armor.  And straight explode a man sized target. Or a bull sized target. Like Pink Mist nothing left but homeboys nikes.
Also your idea of a hand crank is cool.  but the action is electric iirc.  so you'd have to rig that up too.    You'd be FARR better off getting an old civil war era rotary cannon and maybe using your resources or crafting to MAKE it a 30mm cannon (ie make new barrels that sort of thing).


though if you really wanted an old, simple gun that shoots fast and has a big fn round pick the ma duece M2 .50 cal machine gun.  you know, the kind that they perch on humvees and tanks?      tie two of those MFs together with chains and bailing wire.    rig a piece that will depress both triggers together.  Step 3?   Walk around blowin shit away like a space marine :)     For the Golden Throne!
Title: Re: Real heavy weapons/armor?
Post by: Belial666 on August 06, 2010, 07:35:15 PM
Most normal humans have a stress track of 2. Most normal bulls have a stress track of 5 or 6. Neither have armor. Hence even a glancing (mediocre) hit from a 30 mm bullet could do serious damage to the bull and kill the human. A dead-center hit like you're describing does 5 stress from weapon rating and +4 for a great hit and would kill both human and bull.
Do note that a sniper rifle is weapon 3, a grenade is weapon 4 and being hit by a car is weapon 5.


As for being overpowered, ever seen a submerged wizard pancake an entire building with a Weapon 9, attack 10+ blast that spreads over three entire zones? We are talking dozens of vampires and minions burned to a crisp in one blow here. Because how many times has Harry done so by now? I'm kinda losing track. Yeah, a submerged guy isn't going to do that more than once or twice in a session but once or twice is usually enough.
Title: Re: Real heavy weapons/armor?
Post by: tymire on August 06, 2010, 07:43:10 PM
Putting a hand crank on it your closer to 3-6 rounds a second than 30, not that it would make much of a difference, as mentioned.  Which is probably good. Trying to carry that much ammo could be a bit of a problem just bulk wise (could.. hehe..).  Might also consider that you might be immune to magic, but that doesn't mean the bullets are  ;D.  Lol, that would make a satern missile battery look like a snake.

Not too sure about the immune to all damage either.  Personally if I was running it would make that into the small and possibly vechicle scale weapons.  Sorry the "Nuke the entire site from orbit—it's the only way to be sure" just carries too much wieght.  That would also corrispond to you trying to carry 200-300 of those shells somehow in a backpack, sorry if they all went boom at the same time, yea good luck with that.
 
Love the idea of another Seras Victoria a.k.a. Police Girl, but even she just uses a single shot umm something...

And Ballplayer72, need a bit more before thinking your a SM.  Have to remember bolt rounds penetrate pretty much anything and than go BOOM  ;)  Also great idea of crafting one yourself.  Not only that you don't have to worry about pesky laws, blackmail, records, or anything else when aquiring it.
Title: Re: Real heavy weapons/armor?
Post by: ballplayer72 on August 06, 2010, 08:09:43 PM
Most normal humans have a stress track of 2. Most normal bulls have a stress track of 5 or 6. Neither have armor. Hence even a glancing (mediocre) hit from a 30 mm bullet could do serious damage to the bull and kill the human. A dead-center hit like you're describing does 5 stress from weapon rating and +4 for a great hit and would kill both human and bull.
Do note that a sniper rifle is weapon 3, a grenade is weapon 4 and being hit by a car is weapon 5.


As for being overpowered, ever seen a submerged wizard pancake an entire building with a Weapon 9, attack 10+ blast that spreads over three entire zones? We are talking dozens of vampires and minions burned to a crisp in one blow here. Because how many times has Harry done so by now? I'm kinda losing track. Yeah, a submerged guy isn't going to do that more than once or twice in a session but once or twice is usually enough.

Harry has in fact NEVER ONCE unilaterally pancaked a building.   He has lit them on fire, several times.    This usually leads to massive structural damage that eventually causes the building to collapse under its own weight.   Especially when he sheers through support beams with fire lances.  But he's never just rolled up and smashed the shit out of the place.    That wizard you talk about is also a glass cannon.  He's not going to be able to consequence himself out by doing that level of mojo and still be able to defend himself.  Whereas both your characters are effectively invincible AND deal MASSIVE amounts of offense.  And mostly don't miss.    thats just overpowered imo if youre trying to have a balanced game.  If youre NOT trying to have a balanced game then knock yourself out.  Those can definitely be fun (whole squad of brokenly powerful PCs is always fun.   It means you can do your best to off them and they generally won't complain about it ;) )
Title: Re: Real heavy weapons/armor?
Post by: YuriPup on August 06, 2010, 08:37:14 PM
If you're handcranking--which is /way coo/--why bother with 7 barrels?

Yee ogre isn't going to get anywhere near ROF of 3900 RPM--and maybe not even 300 RPM--and cooling becomes much less of an issue.

Just looking at steel pipe that is 2" across with a 3/4" wall (which looks to be way bigger than the GAU 8's barrels) we get a weight of only about 10 lbs/foot. Now the recoil would be a killer, as you aren't absorbing it into 2 tons of gun, but its way, way more portable. Maybe 300 lbs for the package and 300 lbs for the ammo (as the shells seem to be about 1.5 lbs each).

And you might have a nice little bonus of a player rolling a gun skill check and figuring out "OMG that is an Avenger barrel...torn out of an A-10").

And should your target manage to soak the roll from the gun and they aren't using magic to disperse the energy, they are going over on their asses. 1 shot should be about enough to move a 200 LB man 1 yard.
Title: Re: Real heavy weapons/armor?
Post by: tymire on August 06, 2010, 08:42:59 PM
Though really the SM comment is actually quite valid.   Have been thinking about Deathwatch the last week or so, how you could play the game where it didn't turn into a slug fest every session.  Maybe I am just not inventive enough but I couldn't really come up with anything.  As SMs are just too obvious for everyday life.  It's understandable that most of them on are on a ship travelling to their next fight, or on sanctified monk worlds and separated from the rest of the populous.  The closest I came was having an Inquisitor travel around with them, but just them being present (in armor or not) eliminates any chance of subtlety.

Making a character like this pretty much is the same.  By weighing 2-4 tons (with armor) you will not be able go anywhere that isn't on solid ground.  No vehicles will be able to take that weight so hope you like walking.  Rain/sand/mud/water are going to be your worse enemies as anything that isn't properly supported will just crush under your weight.  Trying to get up would almost be as bad as picking yourself out of powder.  If you haven’t done that while skiing let me tell you it's not the easiest thing in the world.  Have never pulled any stomach muscles until tried doing that, and have to say it's a bit of an experience that involves lots of cussing, lol.

In fact going to the local quick trip would probably be more of a challenge than most combats.  And tracking you finding out where you live ect would only take a google search.  In combat most folks once they realize what you are will just simply out maneuver you, which with a little brains would be a simple prospect.

On the flip side the RP fun of a character when not in combat with that many challenges could be quite entertaining.  
 
Title: Re: Real heavy weapons/armor?
Post by: Belial666 on August 06, 2010, 09:03:15 PM
@tymire;
Nicodemus has physical immunity. He ignores nukes-it even says so on his sheet. Ditto for ghosts with Physical immunity to anything they are ignoring. The Loup-Garou also has physical immunity. Harry blasted it through a whole freaking police station, thrusting it through several walls only by the knockback of his spell, and halfway through another building to boot. It wasn't even wounded-and that blast was the equivalent of what, a tankbuster missile? More?
Physical immunity is just that; you cannot be harmed except for a specific thing that is your weakness, major artifact weapons and gods. Anything else could only knock you around, perhaps cause some pain but no lasting wounds at all.

@ballplayer72;
Harry's Submerged version does Weapon 8 blasts at attack +7 if he makes his spells lethal-paying the minimum mental stress. Against something that can't dodge, that's 15 stress on an average roll. You need only 12 stress to blast a vault door or really fortified walls.
Now, paying his 4th mental stress track and one mild mental consequence plus his 3rd mental stress track and one mild physical consequence, he could deal 14 stress on three entire zones. Instant pancake.
Yeah, a submerged wizard could only do it once every other scene (he or she needs the intervening scene to recover from the milds) but they can still obliterate lots and lots of people. THAT is why Lawbreakers exist; so that wizards have to be careful not to kill humans with magic. Otherwise, wizards would simply nova every singe encounter.
Title: Re: Real heavy weapons/armor?
Post by: ballplayer72 on August 06, 2010, 09:34:45 PM
@tymire;
Nicodemus has physical immunity. He ignores nukes-it even says so on his sheet. Ditto for ghosts with Physical immunity to anything they are ignoring. The Loup-Garou also has physical immunity. Harry blasted it through a whole freaking police station, thrusting it through several walls only by the knockback of his spell, and halfway through another building to boot. It wasn't even wounded-and that blast was the equivalent of what, a tankbuster missile? More?
Physical immunity is just that; you cannot be harmed except for a specific thing that is your weakness, major artifact weapons and gods. Anything else could only knock you around, perhaps cause some pain but no lasting wounds at all.

@ballplayer72;
Harry's Submerged version does Weapon 8 blasts at attack +7 if he makes his spells lethal-paying the minimum mental stress. Against something that can't dodge, that's 15 stress on an average roll. You need only 12 stress to blast a vault door or really fortified walls.
Now, paying his 4th mental stress track and one mild mental consequence plus his 3rd mental stress track and one mild physical consequence, he could deal 14 stress on three entire zones. Instant pancake.
Yeah, a submerged wizard could only do it once every other scene (he or she needs the intervening scene to recover from the milds) but they can still obliterate lots and lots of people. THAT is why Lawbreakers exist; so that wizards have to be careful not to kill humans with magic. Otherwise, wizards would simply nova every singe encounter.

right but don't you have to add up the number of mortals that were in the building you just pancaked along with the Rampires?     Doesn't each lawbreaker count against you until eventually you stack up with negative refresh?    Or is it friday and 4:30 pm and my brain has shut off?
Title: Re: Real heavy weapons/armor?
Post by: Belial666 on August 06, 2010, 10:27:39 PM
Well, you can only go up to -2 for Lawbreaker: First. And if you're a submerged wizard who already has that Lawbreaker maxed, it just gives you a +2 to any spells intended to kill. So, Conviction 5, focus +2, specialization +1 gives 8 minimum power, Discipline 5, focus +2, Lawbreaker +2 gives 9 control.

So our Lawbreaking Submerged wizard is doing 8-shift killing spells at +9 attack, dealing 14 shifts of damage on someone with good defense, 17 shifts of damage on something that can't dodge or has mediocre dodge. That's cleaving-a-tank-in-two or ripping-off-the-vault-door kinda blast if focused on a single target. Or it can be pancake-the-building kinda blast if focused on two-three zones.

And the scary thing? This is a 1-stress spell for the wizard who can have it as a Rote. He can do it 4 times per combat without consequences.
Title: Re: Real heavy weapons/armor?
Post by: ballplayer72 on August 06, 2010, 10:40:39 PM
Well, you can only go up to -2 for Lawbreaker: First. And if you're a submerged wizard who already has that Lawbreaker maxed, it just gives you a +2 to any spells intended to kill. So, Conviction 5, focus +2, specialization +1 gives 8 minimum power, Discipline 5, focus +2, Lawbreaker +2 gives 9 control.

So our Lawbreaking Submerged wizard is doing 8-shift killing spells at +9 attack, dealing 14 shifts of damage on someone with good defense, 17 shifts of damage on something that can't dodge or has mediocre dodge. That's cleaving-a-tank-in-two or ripping-off-the-vault-door kinda blast if focused on a single target. Or it can be pancake-the-building kinda blast if focused on two-three zones.

And the scary thing? This is a 1-stress spell for the wizard who can have it as a Rote. He can do it 4 times per combat without consequences.


thats just silly.   thats wayy wayy to much umph to be practical in game terms (though i have a few friends who would positively orgasm at the thought of how easy it would be to cause widespread mayhem) unless you just wanna break stuff . (which can certainly be fun ;) )



The real problem with the Gau guy is that he doen'st have to take consequences or be tired after.  Just has to reload.  And the fact that its so ridonkulously powerful and he can stand around for as long as he has bullets just kinda.... makes it too easy. just imo
Title: Re: Real heavy weapons/armor?
Post by: Belial666 on August 06, 2010, 11:03:03 PM
Yep. Magic is badass. Harry Dresden has just a bit lower power than that when he starts out only because he's not fully focused on blasting; he has some potion-making and divinations oomph too and doesn't have full Lawbreaker. But we're talking only about 2-3 less stress or so, out of 14.


Problem with the GAU guy is that he's gonna be doing only half the damage of the blaster wizard and he would also lack the wizard's Thaumaturgy abilities. Besides, would the wizard actually need to use his rote more than 4 times in a scene? And if he's facing a sea of enemies, he could just go Nova, spend two mild consequences and take some backlash to flatten all enemies in 5 zones with a megablast. Harry Dresden kind of did that in book 3 and fully did that in book 11.
Title: Re: Real heavy weapons/armor?
Post by: ballplayer72 on August 08, 2010, 03:47:22 AM
Yep. Magic is badass. Harry Dresden has just a bit lower power than that when he starts out only because he's not fully focused on blasting; he has some potion-making and divinations oomph too and doesn't have full Lawbreaker. But we're talking only about 2-3 less stress or so, out of 14.


Problem with the GAU guy is that he's gonna be doing only half the damage of the blaster wizard and he would also lack the wizard's Thaumaturgy abilities. Besides, would the wizard actually need to use his rote more than 4 times in a scene? And if he's facing a sea of enemies, he could just go Nova, spend two mild consequences and take some backlash to flatten all enemies in 5 zones with a megablast. Harry Dresden kind of did that in book 3 and fully did that in book 11.


harry also has a significantly higher refresh level in number 11 AND in 3 he's gone through a major plot point (susan getting gaked, thomas' betrayal.  thinking he's about to get ate) BEFORE he gets to drop that.  It also straight kills him to do it.  Mike has to perform CPR and probably some faith magic to bring his ass back to life.     It almost qualifies as a death curse
Title: Re: Real heavy weapons/armor?
Post by: Belial666 on August 08, 2010, 05:41:59 AM
Yes, but he was already very tired in 3 before attempting it and a little bit beat up; that's why the spell nearly killed him. A fresh wizard who is prepared to Lawbreak your ass into oblivion is really, really scary.
Title: Re: Real heavy weapons/armor?
Post by: Bubba Amon Hotep on August 09, 2010, 02:43:23 AM
Yes, but he was already very tired in 3 before attempting it and a little bit beat up; that's why the spell nearly killed him. A fresh wizard who is prepared to Lawbreak your ass into oblivion is really, really scary.

And that is why Wardens kill sorcerers (read not wizards yet) that start showing the signs of people prepared and willing to "lawbreak your ass into ovlivion".  Helps me sleep at night knowing that only well adjusted wizards get fully trained.  And the crazy psychos get an early grave and headless corpse.

Of course I do wake up thinking about the "couple" ( read not hordes ) of dark wizards running around in the shadows.  But I can go back to sleep easy enough when I remember that if they do ANYTHING sizable, they show up on the radar and get taken down.
Title: Re: Real heavy weapons/armor?
Post by: Doc Nova on August 09, 2010, 03:33:55 AM
Wow!  That is an incredibly potent character.  Certainly fun to banter about, excellent from the standpoint of "No, no, no" for the power-level in my game...but I also wonder about the "invincibility" of the character.  So far, I have seen no one mention anything about socially embarassing the character to the point of being taken out.  Shamed, taunted, and the like.  There's a massive vulnerability...at least as I read it, on the character that could (and should) be exploited at every possible moment.  Aside from the logistics of not being able to travel most places, you have the simple and direct social attacks to slap aspects like "Egg on the Face" and the like.  Surely, I could see the character getting angry at such antics and opening fire, at which point folks would be well within reason to declare "Enraged" on the character, and then compel it to screw with aiming (and, therefore, hitting) not to mention someone like this would certainly draw the attention of the Blackstaff
(click to show/hide)
.

Very interesting exercise in "what if", in my opinion, however.  And, hey, if your group goes for that kind of game, just don't blow up the Earth...for in the immortal words of the Tick..."That's where I keep all my stuff!"
Title: Re: Real heavy weapons/armor?
Post by: tymire on August 09, 2010, 04:34:11 PM
Just remember that being immune to magic doesn't mean you cannot be hurt or killed from the effects of magic.  You might not be able to be blasted, but someone could move all the air around you (suffocate), veils to dictate your actions, changing the environment itself (instant sand traps), etc... There are MANY different ways that magic could be used that can have some seriously negative consequences if you take the time to be a bit creative.  Like said would be a great fun to roleplay, but after you get into 1-2 fights decked out the rumor mill will start and everyone (that takes time) will know that they need a work around. 
Title: Re: Real heavy weapons/armor?
Post by: Belial666 on August 09, 2010, 05:11:07 PM
And that is why the character isn't overpowered. Sure, she has tremendous melee combat abilities and is as tough as a tank. But she sucks in social conflict, mental conflict and non-combat skills.
Title: Re: Real heavy weapons/armor?
Post by: Barrington on August 10, 2010, 03:04:18 AM
I think we need to remember that the character being accused of being overpowered is the product of many, many sessions of gameplay. Seriously, look at the damn refresh point cost of that thing. This is the product of a lot of character development and player work. By then, I think the other characters and the game itself would have advanced enough to make her fit right in. Just a tip, though. . .if you want her to use a full-sized GAU, I'd up her height. Those things are about twenty feet long. Either that, or chop down the barrels to be about four or five feet long.

---

YOU ARE SO SMALL! IS FUNNY TO ME!
Title: Re: Real heavy weapons/armor?
Post by: theDwarf on August 10, 2010, 03:42:37 AM
If all you have is a hammer:
Imagine a hammer with a handle two inches thick and a bit over three feet long, with a head two feet wide and one foot thick. It is a large hammer, yes? Were it made from iron, it would weigh about half a ton. Were it made from tungsten alloy, a material nearly three times heavier and several times tougher than steel, it would weigh about a ton and a half... and superstrong faeries like Ogres and Trolls would have no problems touching it. Being hit by it would be as bad as being run over by a mack truck going fifty.
What kind of weapon rating would you give that?

None.

The handle is 2 inches thick and 3' long.
<snap>

For an article I wrote I did a break test on an 8' pine 2x4 with good grain and it held (IIRC) 500+ pounds of people at the center but sheared when we bounced slightly.  Given that test I know that a pine handle 3' long would tend to shear if the weight was greater than say 600 pounds were at one end.  The strongest wood I know would shear at around 2000 pounds of weight and we haven't even talked about impact yet!  Hickory is much stronger than pine yet it is not uncommon break hickory handles on even a 6 pound sledge if the handle strikes rather than the maul or axe head.  So, you are talking about 1000#-3000# hammer head which would mean that a typical hickory handle would be more like 25"+ diameter handle to handle the load properly.

Toon physics do not aid in suspension of disbelief.
Title: Re: Real heavy weapons/armor?
Post by: Belial666 on August 10, 2010, 03:54:58 AM
The handle is also made of the same space-age metal alloy. Iron could hold, but I am not sure. But the handle also being just as dense actually improves balance by distributing the weight a bit more evenly.
Title: Re: Real heavy weapons/armor?
Post by: theDwarf on August 10, 2010, 04:13:43 AM
Its pretty tough to swing around a weapon that weighs a significant fraction of your mass.   I'd say over half of your weight and swinging that thing would send you flying off balance.

Half???

Heck, most zweihanders ran only 4-7 pounds in weight (ceremonial ones up to 16 pounds).
Battle axes tend to weigh under 6 pounds and even the Danish axes tended to weigh only 2-4 pounds.

You can purchase a Briar Axe from Lowes ... weight 4.6 pounds (36" handle).  I could see having a slightly heavier blade and it still being wieldable, but not too much heavier or the user would not be able to make an attack per second +/- (faster if striking for speed to distract, hook, or accomplish other such result).


There is a HUGE difference between being able to pick something up, being able to toss it a small distance, and being able wield it as a weapon and not get overbalanced by it.

Remember, E=MC^2 so once the mass is moving any appreciable speed it starts throwing you rather than you diverting its direction.
Title: Re: Real heavy weapons/armor?
Post by: theDwarf on August 10, 2010, 04:26:07 AM
The handle is also made of the same space-age metal alloy. Iron could hold, but I am not sure. But the handle also being just as dense actually improves balance by distributing the weight a bit more evenly.

Unobtanium I am guessing?

Problem is 2" diameter is squat for strength when trying to use it as a handle for a 1-2 ton weight ...

... plus the acceleration and the impact.

Ludicrous.


here is why:
Iron has a shear modulus of 82 GPa, Tungsten 161 GPa.
Basically that means if iron can't handle a 500# load then Tungsten won't handle a 1000# load.

Hickory runs 14.8MPa for shear or roughly 0.0146GPa IIRC.  That would put tungsten at maybe x10,000 of Hickory which means it SHOUL handle the shear, but Hickory has a MOE of 15.583 GPa as well although Tungsten is probably only running at 411 GPa which puts Tungsten at only 30x more resistant than Hickory and thus the 1000#-3000# head severely questionable compared to a 3#-6# sledge with a 2" diam hickory handle (aka, it may handle the shear, but there are other stresses involved as well).


Dresden is able to pull off what he does by obeying the laws of physics.  These include things like shear strength and exploiting the weakest (or least protected) points.
Title: Re: Real heavy weapons/armor?
Post by: ballplayer72 on August 10, 2010, 01:34:43 PM
Half???

Heck, most zweihanders ran only 4-7 pounds in weight (ceremonial ones up to 16 pounds).
Battle axes tend to weigh under 6 pounds and even the Danish axes tended to weigh only 2-4 pounds.

You can purchase a Briar Axe from Lowes ... weight 4.6 pounds (36" handle).  I could see having a slightly heavier blade and it still being wieldable, but not too much heavier or the user would not be able to make an attack per second +/- (faster if striking for speed to distract, hook, or accomplish other such result).


There is a HUGE difference between being able to pick something up, being able to toss it a small distance, and being able wield it as a weapon and not get overbalanced by it.

Remember, E=MC^2 so once the mass is moving any appreciable speed it starts throwing you rather than you diverting its direction.

Remember not human with hulking size and mythic strength.      Humans aren't strong enough to easily tear cars in half.  This troll thing can.  So can hammer girl.       The strength gives them an edge (compared to humans) in controlling and changing their momentum.  It'd still be easy to throw yourself around though.
Also you can always use the ole GM excuse *waggles fingers* "its magic" :D
Title: Re: Real heavy weapons/armor?
Post by: tymire on August 10, 2010, 03:48:43 PM
Actually no superstrength doesn't allow you to change momentum or give you any extra leverage or anthing like that. 

See the boot to the head of bampire while in Henry's car.  If it allowed this it would not have worked.

Though if she didn't have that super heavy armor would be cool because you could litterly hammer throw yourself (like Thor) over tall buildings, lol.  And problem with super heavy armor also is that if you move at all you would have to make a balance check.  Sure the armor itself is heavy, however you don't have the mass to shift it's weight (need LOTS and LOTS of practice).  Even if with that would also give the character a tag named "TIMBER" or the "BIGGER THEY ARE THE HARDER THEY FALL" where folks could take advantage of that.

Hmm best way to get around that by making the armor more powerfull item of power.  Don't think a +0 human guise should work on something that is supposed to be 1" thick, armor 5, and wieghing 2 tons.....  Also -1 refresh for a weapon 5 and armor 5 is well quite cheezy, esp as written when they have true strike, human guise, and 1/2 immunity to magic.  Probably would also say since this stuff is getting modified need to have marked by power to signify "something" claiming you, as there is nothing like a growing item of power shown anywhere else in the game that I am aware of.

PS: Where did the weakess against silver come from?  Definately isn't an angel thing. 

PPS:  Weapon-fu only works against melee attacks, so still rolling athletics for dodging range ones.
Title: Re: Real heavy weapons/armor?
Post by: Belial666 on August 10, 2010, 05:15:42 PM
Well, if you don't like the superheavy weapons, the base Nephilim template from here effectively incorporates +2 damage and -2 stress from attacks;
http://www.jimbutcheronline.com/bb/index.php/topic,20398.0.html
Add then a normal full tactical suit for armor 3 and an Item of Power longsword with True Strike, the improved defense stunt/power and another +1 ability of your liking, probably a +2 defense or armor vs magic only.

Same difference; you still end up with a character with  OOOOOO(OOOO) physical stress, fantastic defense and attack at weapon 9, lots of armor and some antimagic. You could have gotten the half-immunity to magic if the base template did not include hulking size.


@tymire:
The weapon-fu is a stunt that adds a trapping to the weapon skill. It is the exact same as footwork that lets you use Guns instead of athletics. The weakness to silver is explained in the base template. Marked by Power is for officially, visibly, serving a known power like Hell. Harry Dresden gets help from angels (and demons) all the time and doesn't have it.

@theDwarf:
Tungsten alone is not that tough. Superalloys using it on the other hand are considerably tougher than both it and iron.