You can't have this discussion without also mentioning Justine. She was on the Hill as well.
Taking care of Mac also gives Justine something to do, and having her on the island lets Maeve clue the readers in on Lara not being infected.
Boohyah, I remember thinking that way back when reading this, but certainly needed the reminder since I had forgotten all together that she was there when writing this up heh.Meh, I don't think it outweighs putting the spotlight on the mystery surrounding Mac. Shooting Thomas could have served the exact same purpose.
Edit: I'd even go so far as to say that that is more significant than any one of the proposed Doylist reasons for Mac being there, maybe all of them combined.
Meh, I don't think it outweighs putting the spotlight on the mystery surrounding Mac. Shooting Thomas could have served the exact same purpose.
BTW - has it been resolved as to weather or not Mac owes Mab fro removing the bullet?
Not for certain but I tend to favor peregrine's notion that Maeve shooting him enabled Mab to 'right the wrong' so to speak and undo the damage that a lesser being of her Court did. The favor if any, essentially, was owed BY Mab and she fulfilled it by removing the bullet.
Meh, I don't think it outweighs putting the spotlight on the mystery surrounding Mac. Shooting Thomas could have served the exact same purpose.
Shooting Thomas could have served the exact same purpose.We know Thomas has supernatural healing abilities though. Mac (maybe?) doesn't.
I like the idea Serack. Frankly, even the first scene with Mac in the bar (where Sharkface smashes in) is a little weird. Even Harry comments on how this was a mistake.
Still, it seems to me that 1+2+3 might be sufficient motive to introduce Mac in itself. If you wanted to add something more, I suppose one could also say that Mac might simply be a token "male victim" to balance out Andi, Sarissa, Molly and Justine (and possibly Lily as well).
I guess another possibility is the by showing Mac's healing powers Harry has some sort of secret knowledge he can use in the future. E.g. Harry can now safely shoot Mac, knowing that he will eventually heal. Perhaps this is a way to convince MM Mac that it's "good" Harry, or maybe Harry can show people he's serious by "killing" Mac?
All in all, an interesting analysis. It might be interesting to apply the same tool on some other scenes.
Excellent alternate Doylist perspective that was much farther out of the box than I had managed to go. Although I wouldn't count Andi in that list since Butters does the job well enough.
True, I forgot about Butters. Still, I don't think you could really have Butters shot that easily.
The only reason, which I've said elsewhere that I can think of, is to be able to mirror aurthers injury and healing on Avalon.
I just meant Andi's victimhood was almost identical to Butter's. They were held for the same reason together earlier in the story. In my silly mind, I'm canceling out the same term on opposite sides of an equation/ratio
Please remind me of that story. It's been a couple years since I have studied those legends in detail.Off the top of my head(and mostly from the book Lancelot du Lethe) aurther suffers a fatal wound to his stomach, from mordred, I can't recall but it's either from the lance of Longinus or Excalibur I thought, although maybe just mordred poisoned blade. He gets ferried across to Avalon where the three sisters ( it mighta been 4, but I think one died before the end)including morgana and morgwuis were waiting on the shores to heal him, though he could not quite return to the mortal coil. Afterwards Lancelot looses his memory and wanders until his prophised return. Sequal to mad Merlin, both books are quite good, and Merlin the wanderer is a lot of where I get Odin is Merlin from.
Not that i'm a fan of the 'Chosen one' trope but, introducing Mac as a supernatural figure (former, current or somewhere in-between) would certainly fit the notion that Harry has been 'watched over' most of his life if not all, by interested outside parties and figures. Consider all of Mac's appearances as a more Watsonian variation:
-SF and FM: Introduction to his bar and character as a sort of 'Supernatural hangout' for Chicago. A place where various important events can and might go down early on. FM also has the last meeting between Harry and Kim Delany, the first apprentice and first 'major' direct loss/death to Harry in the books (discounting off screen deaths or supposed deaths like Malcolm, Justin, Elaine etc.), in Macs.
Egad, I just burned the time I had to read the rest of your post (for now) looking for it and didn't find it, but I'll look again later.
I believe there is actually a WoJ or canon reference that Mac opened his bar around the same time Harry moved to Chicago.
Huh, that does sound a bit familiar.i know I've read that one too.
I think Jim wanted to introduce a little more about Mac, and used the attack on the bar, as well as the healing factor later, to do so. However, I think Jim just couldn't extricate Mac easily from the plot once he was involved.Honestly, he could have dropped Mac after the bar scene if he'd wanted to. The premise of "taking people Harry had visited" seemed weak to me. Harry then risking the lives of presumed innocents by taking them to the island was also out of character. Justine could have insisted on going to stay with Thomas, just in case the world exploded. Sarissa could have said that Mab sent her to attend him, seeing as he seemed to be struggling as the WK, and needed some help understanding Winter Law.
So, Mac Watched the climax.
With his place being central to the conspiracy against Nic and and anduriel, I gather he had some beef with nic and anduriel too. It is obvious that both mab and vadderung trust him.Odin showed up at Mac's because it's neutral ground. I don't think there has to be a connection between Mac and Nico/Anduriel for people to use his establishment as neutral ground.
Some have speculated that Mac may actually be the original Odin.
Time travel hat,
Mac is involved in time travel, parallel realities. His origin is some sort of out, as in not this particularly limited reAlity.
Off the top of my head(and mostly from the book Lancelot du Lethe) aurther suffers a fatal wound to his stomach, from mordred, I can't recall but it's either from the lance of Longinus or Excalibur I thought, although maybe just mordred poisoned blade. He gets ferried across to Avalon where the three sisters ( it mighta been 4, but I think one died before the end)including morgana and morgwuis were waiting on the shores to heal him, though he could not quite return to the mortal coil. Afterwards Lancelot looses his memory and wanders until his prophised return. Sequal to mad Merlin, both books are quite good, and Merlin the wanderer is a lot of where I get Odin is Merlin from.
Odin showed up at Mac's because it's neutral ground. I don't think there has to be a connection between Mac and Nico/Anduriel for people to use his establishment as neutral ground.Yeah, Mab and Harry needed someplace quiet to meet with Kringle. Mac's is the obvious choice for the window of time they had available.
Egad, I just burned the time I had to read the rest of your post (for now) looking for it and didn't find it, but I'll look again later.
I believe there is actually a WoJ or canon reference that Mac opened his bar around the same time Harry moved to Chicago.
That part of the myth always seemed odd to me; Morgan le Fay is directly responsible for Arthur's death as she stole Excalibur's scabbard which granted Arthur immortality. So this could also be further hinting that like Arthur, Mac is supposed to be immortal.Well, in the version I read mordred tricked him and stole it so aurther plunged the lance of Longinus into it. Morgana was there to heal him, though responsible in ways, because it addressed a rebalance and it was her duty, somehow related to her Wiccan position(one queen for each direction)
(http://i.imgur.com/4b3yzsU.jpg)
Arthur on the left, Mordred on the right.
Honestly, he could have dropped Mac after the bar scene if he'd wanted to.It was the price Harry had to pay for his secrecy. He did not warn anyone for the coming storm so they where all collected easily. It also showed how far gone Maeve was, her redcap kidnapped Mac from accorded neutral territory.
But not out of character for cold days Harry, like so many things that happened in that book.
The premise of "taking people Harry had visited" seemed weak to me. Harry then risking the lives of presumed innocents by taking them to the island was also out of character.
Justine could have insisted on going to stay with Thomas, just in case the world exploded.Harry had the opportunity to warn everybody but he did not do so. They were taken unaware.
Sarissa could have said that Mab sent her to attend him, seeing as he seemed to be struggling as the WK, and needed some help understanding Winter Law.Sarissa does not seem to lie like a mortal. I think everything she says is true in the fae sense.
Instead, we had suspicion of Mac, who has been nothing but a friend to Harry, all in order to get him to come along with everyone else.Harry became more paranoid, partly because of the mantle I think.
It was the price Harry had to pay for his secrecy. He did not warn anyone for the coming storm so they where all collected easily. It also showed how far gone Maeve was, her redcap kidnapped Mac from accorded neutral territory.This is a Doylist argument, not a Watsonian. I'm saying JB could have done more believable things to get the others there, but there was no reason to take Mac other than "I suddenly don't trust anyone".
But not out of character for cold days Harry, like so many things that happened in that book. Harry had the opportunity to warn everybody but he did not do so. They were taken unaware.Sarissa does not seem to lie like a mortal. I think everything she says is true in the fae sense.Harry became more paranoid, partly because of the mantle I think.
This is a Doylist argument, not a Watsonian. I'm saying JB could have done more believable things to get the others there, but there was no reason to take Mac other than "I suddenly don't trust anyone".It is a very watsonian argument. Murphy could have made it. There are a lot of ways the mantles influence and winter influence in general showed itself in cold days Harry. His paranoia towards Mac was one of them.
It is a very watsonian argument. Murphy could have made it. There are a lot of ways the mantles influence and winter influence in general showed itself in cold days Harry. His paranoia towards Mac was one of them.Are we talking about the same thing? This thread is theorizing as to why JB included Mac with the others, and why his presence was necessary.
Unless you rephrase it as Jim wanted to show us the mantles influence on Harry.....
Well, in the version I read mordred tricked him and stole it so aurther plunged the lance of Longinus into it. Morgana was there to heal him, though responsible in ways, because it addressed a rebalance and it was her duty, somehow related to her Wiccan position(one queen for each direction)
That... sounds different from what I read. What source is that from? Also where did the Lance of Longinus come from? Arthur's spear is Rhongomyniad (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Excalibur). (scroll down)I said it in one of my first posts. Book called Lancelot du Lethe. Lancelot was gifted the lance by Mars smetrius his war master(also literally Mars, red God of war) and eventually aurther had it at the final battle. Merlin told him to seek out the relics of Christ as the old powers were no longer secure.(it's a romanticized version, emphasizing the love triangle and why lance and gywn did their side)
Taking care of Mac also gives Justine something to do, and having her on the island lets Maeve clue the readers in on Lara not being infected.
Are we talking about the same thing? This thread is theorizing as to why JB included Mac with the others, and why his presence was necessary.Show, not tell.
I don't think "Because I want to show that Harry is now a distrustful asshole that endangers innocents" was his motivation. If it had, then he would have one of the others throw it in Harry's face.
More than that, it shows the reader just how calm and collected Justine is when dealing with a life and death situation. I'd have to reread Even Hand; the short story told from Marcone's perspective, but I recall Justine being equally in control of her emotions and taking carefully calculated risks. Her rational decision making process was functioning at a high order.
We learned that Justine was smart and knew how to play hard ball in Grave Peril, but even though she successfully blackmailed Harry into helping Thomas at Bianca's party, she was addicted to Thomas and was on an emotional roller coaster from hell when Thomas wasn't around.
Now Justine is as cool and collected as Emma Peel. Why? In White Night Justine ascribes her newly found emotional balance to medication, but in Grave Peril she told Harry the med's made her sick. She could be using a new medication or she could be hiding something. Hiding something is the more interesting and entertaining possibility, so that's what I'm choosing to believe.
Egad, I just burned the time I had to read the rest of your post (for now) looking for it and didn't find it, but I'll look again later.
I believe there is actually a WoJ or canon reference that Mac opened his bar around the same time Harry moved to Chicago.
Where was Harry’s apartment?
In the same mythical four or five blocks where his office was, and where Mac’s is. It’s really dangerous to use an actual location because there’s always that occasional unbalanced person who just decides “Well, this needs to be true to the books, I’m going to burn this house down.” *audience laughter* I knew I was gonna be wrecking the place, so maybe I’ll just kind of make it semi-mythical and that will be healthier for everyone.
Can we get a break down of the biological relationships between the various Fae Queens we have seen on screen?
Of particular interest - Maeve and Sarissa, were they actually Mab's kids (biological sense)? If so, who was Mab's baby daddy?
Mab and Titania are actual twin sisters.
Maeve and Sarissa were twin sisters, from Mab. Their father was an Austrian composer and musician who died young.
If there was some prior involvement of Mab with Mac, shooting him would not only be a slight against Mab's honor, but Maeve would get 'extra points' for hurting one of Mab's friends, and possibly her lover. This would also explain why Mab pulled the bullet out without trying to goad Mac into some kind of bargain. She is good at getting someone over a barrel, then pulling the rug out from under them.
Mab wanted Maeve dead, but for some reason could not kill Maeve herself. Harry did not want to kill Maeve, even though as the Winter Knight, he is bound to follow the orders of the Winter Queen. Having Maeve shoot one of Harry's best friends might have given Harry the justification to kill her. Even so, Harry would not have killed Maeve with both Karrin and Molly so close to a loose Winter Lady mantle.
Karrin is still bound by her conscious to protect the citizens of Chicago, and Mac is well known to her. Had Maeve shot Thomas, Karrin might not have reacted so severely. She knows that Thomas can take a few hits and still survive. She might think of Mac as a vanilla mortal.
Karrin was also the only one there who might have been unaware of how mantles are transferred. Had Maeve shot Karrin, it is possible that none of the others would have killed Maeve. Karrin may not have been able to return fire.
Jim may have written this scene years ago, but could not find a good place in the other books to drop it. He may have had to develop the Nemesis infection more fully before he could allude to the idea (in Harry's mind) that Mac might be infected. This might have been the basis of Harry's mistrust of Mac.
I think the doylist purpose of Mac was to show the reader two things:
1) How wrong Maeve had become. The importance of the unseelie accords and the special status of neutral territory was build up during earlier books and the redcap just kidnapped Mac from his pub. It was proof enough to show exactly who was infected and shooting Mac Confirmed that. Nothing is safe or sacred anymore. Everything can be violated. This insecurity leads to point two.
1) it shows how paranoid Harry had become, which shows the influence of the mantle and/or the influence of nemesis infected fairy plotting on his stressed mind.
Andy as a victim is something we are used to though she was probably kidnapped from her own house. All this creates an atmosphere of uncertainty and broken rules. Fairy tricks without fairy rules.
That all sounds more like 'in-universe' rationales to my eyes. Neither would have really required Mac at all in any event.But Mac is the strongest way to build that atmosphere. Mac should be in his pub providing a safe place for everyone, that was his function in the story. He is not. It is a strong way to show that everything is wrong and turning into chaos.
But Mac is the strongest way to build that atmosphere. Mac should be in his pub providing a safe place for everyone, that was his function in the story. He is not. It is a strong way to show that everything is wrong and turning into chaos.
That is his function in this story. The same reason his pub was attacked.
That is rather debatable to just be saying 'this is his function' and have done.I usually do that when things are that obvious, I point them out if they were not noticed before.
Otherwise what is the point of all these theories surrounding who or what he really is to which even the author tells us that there is indeed something more to him that you are ascribing.See the original post. We are looking for Mac's function in the story for that scene
And the chaos is already there whether Mac is involved or not.Mac is a victim, not the cause.
The Accords and so called times when guest rights or neutral territory ought to be upheld have long since gone out the window, that's the whole point of Nemesis in the first place.When Mac was kidnapped Harry was still asking himself who was infected, Mab or Maeve. This should have showed him. Mac as a victim dragged from his bar shows the reader how deeply nemesis infected Maeve is (and also how dumb Lilly is if she knew about it)
These events, these hints, these ideas all exists well within the story whether Mac's gets attacked or not. And its his bar getting attacked that is the 'big deal' if there is any, not him. His bar is Switzerland and neutral but he himself is just 'out'. Being 'out' doesn't make you untouchable.But being in the bar should and where else would he be?
Charity set aside her power and she's been tossed around physically and emotionally plenty.Sure but what has that to do with this scene?
On top of all that anyway, the reasons you give again illustrate Watsonian leanings more than Doylist. Mac being there because JB doesn't wanna be seen as a chauvinist who let a bunch of women get kidnapped so he added Mac in is Doylist reasoning. Mac being there because the DV is in 'chaos' and forces, events or character choices have drawn an otherwise normally uninvolved third party into the mix is Watsonian.That is not what I said.
I usually do that when things are that obvious, I point them out if they were not noticed before.
See the original post. We are looking for Mac's function in the story for that scene
Mac has an overall story purpose as well. Probably several ones and some of that played a role in this scene but it was not the main purpose for this scene.
When I say Bob is a talking head in a scene I do not mean that Bob is only a talking head and never has any other function. Mac is a victim, not the cause.When Mac was kidnapped Harry was still asking himself who was infected, Mab or Maeve. This should have showed him. Mac as a victim dragged from his bar shows the reader how deeply nemesis infected Maeve is (and also how dumb Lilly is if she knew about it)But being in the bar should and where else would he be? Sure but what has that to do with this scene?That is not what I said.
Mac was there because it was the strongest way to show the chaos. He was not interchangeable with any other victim, he was there as a special victim, the only victim that could really show how utterly chaotic everything had become and how paranoid Harry had become. He was there for illustrative purposes.
That is enough to drag him into the story and that is what my post was about. I tried to show what made Mab special as a victim from a story writing perspective.
I think Arjan has something there. Even Sharkface was reluctant to enter Mac's Pub. Call it what you will, but Mac's has always been a Safe Haven, up until the time Mac was kidnapped.
That's like declaring war on Switzerland by kidnapping Simonetta Sommaruga.
It's the "Thrice I ask" that leads me to lean toward the "Sharkface is Cowl" theory. Basically, Sharkface is what you get when a possessed mortal uses too much Outisder power -- he becomes a pure host to the Outsider. Would also go toward explaining where Cowl was during the final Outsider-based showdown at the end of CD.
The only real downside of the theory is that this means we probably won't ever see "normal" Cowl again.
• Justine: Her presence enabled Maeve to inform the reader that Lara is clean of Nemfection.-Second Aristh
• Sarissa: See Molly above.
• Mac: Huh... Um why WAS he there?
The most important thing about Mac on Demonreach is the way his actions are different than those in his pub when Sharkface the Outsider shows up.
In his pub, he actively gets weapons and tells Harry to kill the Outsiders. He knows about Outsiders and wants them dead. He does not act passively. On Demonreach, Mac is back to standing around waiting for things to happen. He does not join the fight nor does he provide any commentary that would be helpful. He simply does not offend. My assumption on his shooting is different. Nemesis gets a nice clean shot at him. Maeve thinks she is going to win, so no need to kill him quickly. However, she does put him out of commission. I think this comes from Nemesis in knowing who/what Mac is from an Outsider perspective (my base assumption is that Nemesis and the Outsiders act in concert - though we have no absolute proof of that).
Justine was NOT to say that Lara is free of Nemfection, as we have already had quotes that imply she is infected.Uh, what?
Uh, what?
Ten bucks says the "Lara's gotten scary" bit from Thomas as the culprit for this line of thought.
she's Lord Raith's Oldest living child and has been his Right Hand for most of her life. All it took was an opportunity and time to build her own empire. You don't need Nemesis for that. Any WCV can be damn scary, the Queen of all of them with her smarts, knowledge and business acumen - if she ran for President she'd win by a landslide. Now that is truly major league damn scary.
You don't have to convince me, i'm just pointing out the likely culprit for that idea in the first place.You could probably try making a case based on Papa Raith being infected and that getting passed to her via feeding, but I think it's pretty clear that Lara isn't being controlled. WN makes no sense if Nemesis has hooks in her.
You don't have to convince me, i'm just pointing out the likely culprit for that idea in the first place.
You could probably try making a case based on Papa Raith being infected and that getting passed to her via feeding, but I think it's pretty clear that Lara isn't being controlled. WN makes no sense if Nemesis has hooks in her.
The invasion of his domain, subsequent injury to his person, maybe another event... and perhaps Mac chooses to rejoin the fray...Invasion of his domain, or violation of his status as Neutral re the Unseelie Accords?
Simon
Two things. First, she calls being a bartender ironic. Second, she implies hurting him never gets old. So, what if Mac was a former Winter Knight? He left serving Maeve to go and serve everyone. Could be seen as ironic. And if inflicting pain on him was part of their relationship, then the second part makes sense as well.(click to show/hide)
Idea 1: Mac has history with Maeve. From the book:Two things. First, she calls being a bartender ironic.It wasn't necessarily being a "bartender" that was ironic. Earlier we heard him called the "watcher". After Maeve calls him 'the bartender' as identifying who she's talking to, she says, "Irony, there. Getting a good view, are you?” The ironic part would seem to be that he's watching things unfold as the watcher.
My take of 'Out' was that he is constrained from actions due to him originating from another parallel reality, timeline whereby he is attempting to limit his interactions with this reality until a set of conditions are satisfied.
So, I think he has a multiverse tinge to himself. I also like some think he has angelic roots, whether that be on good or neutral side i dunno. I get the impression though that he is versed in redemption when he talks to Harry about it being easy to walk into the Badlands. I think he had his brush with it himself.
"You!" Sharkface snarled. "You have no place in this, watcher. Do you think this gesture has meaning? It is every bit as empty as you. You chose your road long ago. Have the grace to lie down and die with it."