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The Dresden Files => DF Spoilers => Topic started by: groinkick on April 17, 2021, 07:46:21 PM
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Harry almost always has to face really buff enemies, and barely escape with his life. Most books scale up his enemies. Becoming more, and more dangerous. I don't think Alternate Dresden will be Titan level or anything like that, but I suspect he's going to be pretty badass. My question to you, is what power scale do you see Dresden at, and how did he achieve it?
Do you see him being Eb level power, or has he achieved more power than any one person on the Council? He might not have their skill, but he could be so roided with power that he's above them all. For example if Dresden has done both a small darkhollow (only absorbing shades)+ has a Coin, he could be well too powerful for any one Council member to take on, and has become a White Council level threat, and he's basically being hunted like Kemmler was.
What do you think?
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Necromancer for sure, probably his main one. Maybe a denarian...but that seems less likely.
I think he will have all the things that Harry never has. A nice car, lots of sex, a sword (or some other close combat ability), a nice outfit and grooming, and probably a hat.
Well actually depends what Dresden we get. If we get one like his Id, then the above will be true. A suave supervillain. But we could also get super angsty monster Dresden, a horrible Kemmler like necromancer. Might be nothing suave about him. Just rougher and weirder and scarier.
I doubt he will be at Eb power level unless he got a huge boost, or is much older than our Dresden. But that seems less likely. Remember, the whole reason Alt-Dresden summons Harry is to fake his own death.
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Necromancer for sure, probably his main one. Maybe a denarian...but that seems less likely.
I think he will have all the things that Harry never has. A nice car, lots of sex, a sword (or some other close combat ability), a nice outfit and grooming, and probably a hat.
Well actually depends what Dresden we get. If we get one like his Id, then the above will be true. A suave supervillain. But we could also get super angsty monster Dresden, a horrible Kemmler like necromancer. Might be nothing suave about him. Just rougher and weirder and scarier.
I doubt he will be at Eb power level unless he got a huge boost, or is much older than our Dresden. But that seems less likely. Remember, the whole reason Alt-Dresden summons Harry is to fake his own death.
Yeah I think Jim said something about this Dresden being the super confident guy. So I suspect he's going to be like you've described. The main reason I think he's going to be really powerful is Harry's adversaries always have to be way more powerful than him. As Jim said he want's Harry to be just powerful enough to survive. Now it's very possible, and likely that much of him surviving will be in avoiding all the people who want the other Dresden dead. But I mean Jim is going to want to have fun with this. Show is a really badass Harry that can really do cool stuff if he wasn't hung up on doing the right thing all the time. He won't have anywhere near the skill of an Eb, or Langtry, but he could be so full of power that it makes up for his lack of skill. He may also be fully aware of a Starborn's abilities and how to use them.
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MM Harry's biggest buff will probably be the fact that he's not juggling idiot balls while nursing about 3 concussions 24/7.
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MM Harry will not hesitate to take power whatever the costs. He has no moral problems anymore and if you combine that with Lasciel or Mavra as main ally/slave then he will be scary.
I think Mavra will be his bitch. Kemmler's book will take care of that and MM will not hesitate to pay the price for that unlike Harry.
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Had a similar convo with the wife the other day.
I think what we'll see is the effect of Mab's PT on Harry- "our" Harry survives being quantum leaped by an opposite because he can bench 800 lbs and doesn't need focii to do his invocation at a fairly high level. Harry's too naturally lazy to have become that on his own.
MM Harry will have the toys and the focii. Our Harry won't need them, though he is likely to learn some tricks and maybe loot something- they do "speak" the same magic gobbledegook.
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Something I have thought about - not only MM Harry being buffed, but the MM other characters being debuffed. My main idea was that MM Harry got similar treatment from a Sword as our Harry got in BG, so went about and, likely with the help of Lasciel (I assume he kept the coin - too useful not to, should morals not be an issue), found and shattered them, possibly reusing the hilts in some form of magical item. 'Broken hope/love/faith' seems like it would be a powerful anti-good tool.
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Something I have thought about - not only MM Harry being buffed, but the MM other characters being debuffed. My main idea was that MM Harry got similar treatment from a Sword as our Harry got in BG, so went about and, likely with the help of Lasciel (I assume he kept the coin - too useful not to, should morals not be an issue), found and shattered them, possibly reusing the hilts in some form of magical item. 'Broken hope/love/faith' seems like it would be a powerful anti-good tool.
Cool concepts! I don't know what will happen with the Swords. I suspect that either Excalibur was destroyed at Bianca's ball, or it was saved somehow, and another is wielding it, Michael's eldest son for example, or heck maybe Molly. Shiro was dying so he'd have passed his on. So maybe Marcone, or Hendricks has it?
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Cool concepts! I don't know what will happen with the Swords. I suspect that either Excalibur was destroyed at Bianca's ball, or it was saved somehow, and another is wielding it, Michael's eldest son for example, or heck maybe Molly.
A lot of the potential divergence points come after Thomas returned the sword. I think the only big choice earlier was to leave the ball and take either Michael or Susan safely. It was consequential, but not really "near the end" of PG.
The big ones seem to be failing to tell Susan "I love you" or agreeing to let Bianca keep her.
Personally, I think the most interesting narrative potential would be with failing to stop Michael from killing Thomas on the assumption he's just another treacherous vampire, before finding out he'd returned the sword. If you re-read that scene in GP, he was actually pretty close. What a wedge Nicodemus could have driven by dropping that revelation, huh?
The only reason I kind of doubt Denarian mirror-Harry is that Hannah Ascher was already a very Harry-like foil who explored the alternative of what embracing Lasciel would have looked like. Mirror Harry and Lasciel is just kind of repetitive at this point. Although if the differences grew Harry into a better fit for one of the others ... say, Namshiel? That's more interesting.
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There's another choice Harry made that has some really great story potential, and that's what he did to Bianca.
He didn't turn tail, he didn't start a war where the White Council was in violation of the Acccords, he found a third path- empowering her already-slain victims (already across her threshold) using the thinning of the veil she'd helped build- so it was Red Court vs. White Council only.
There's also his choice to take Michael as his second to the party.
I really like that it was his empowering her victims, versus striking her himself, that caused the divergence.
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He didn't turn tail, he didn't start a war where the White Council was in violation of the Acccords, he found a third path- empowering her already-slain victims (already across her threshold) using the thinning of the veil she'd helped build- so it was Red Court vs. White Council only.
That was more a function of Mavra having taught her a shield he couldn't batter his way through than a deliberate choice that it was politically less damaging to give the ghosts the power to take her out.
He'd already dragged the Council into it by rising to the bait to fight while representing them at the party.
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A counter question to the OP is what will Harry bring with him that MM Harry won't have? I think the most obvious answer is soulfire. If MM Harry hasn't touched one of the tainted denarius coins he won't have access to hellfire, but even if that is the case I'm sure he'll have some other nasty abilities he can draw upon.
I don't think we can be certain that Harry will be able to call upon Winter to push through obstacles and ignore pain. It's possible that whoever is Winter Knight in the MM world will keep all their Winter Mojo and Harry will lose his. Perhaps the power of Winter will get divided between himself and the MM Winter Knight or perhaps while Harry is in the MM world there will be two Winter Knights around.
If the later is the case I imagine Titania wouldn't be too happy about that. Harry might have to dodge attempts by Summer to reduce Winter's seeming 2 to 1 advantage in Knights. If Harry does have his full Winter power I don't think he has to obey Mab because she won't be his Mab. If Harry were to lose his Winter Knight mojo I would have to question whether his back has healed enough for him to be as athletic as he will probably need to be. That is why I think Harry will maintain at least some of the Winter Knight's ability to push through pain and keep going where a normal person would falter. Plus, he will still know Winter spells.
I think regular Harry will be mentally and emotional tougher than MM Harry. You could even say Harry will be more emotionally mature than his MM counterpart. Yes I know, the name Harry Dresden and the words emotional maturity don't usually go together, but in this case I think they do. MM Harry will be suave and appear to be more confidant and assured. Plus, he will have some magical abilities regular Harry will either not have access to or may have access to but ones he hasn't practiced, like necromancy. However, MM Harry's confidence will hide a deep insecurity that at some point in the story; most likely their final confrontation, regular Harry should be able to figure out and play upon.
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Harry’s back was healed. That was part of the deal Harry made in Changes. In cold days Harry gets fysio therapy and all the muscles in his body were build up again. Even without the mantle he. Will be stronger and fitter because of all the training he did.
I think he will take his mantle with him but he can not contact his own winter anymore.
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Pretty sure he took the mini dark hallow for changes, and by Woj he caused an ecological disaster doing it. I theorize that ecological disaster was actually from screwing up the balance of the courts.. by absorbing a Knight's mantle.
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Pretty sure he took the mini dark hallow for changes, and by Woj he caused an ecological disaster doing it. I theorize that ecological disaster was actually from screwing up the balance of the courts.. by absorbing a Knight's mantle.
Have that woj source by any chance?
I think he will take his mantle with him but he can not contact his own winter anymore.
This may be a way of nerfing him, and leaving him to rely purely on his magic. A throw back to pre Changes Dresden. It also may clear his head, and he will realize the changes the Mantle has made without him even realizing it.
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A counter question to the OP is what will Harry bring with him that MM Harry won't have? I think the most obvious answer is soulfire. If MM Harry hasn't touched one of the tainted denarius coins he won't have access to hellfire, but even if that is the case I'm sure he'll have some other nasty abilities he can draw upon.
I don't think we can be certain that Harry will be able to call upon Winter to push through obstacles and ignore pain. It's possible that whoever is Winter Knight in the MM world will keep all their Winter Mojo and Harry will lose his. Perhaps the power of Winter will get divided between himself and the MM Winter Knight or perhaps while Harry is in the MM world there will be two Winter Knights around.
If the later is the case I imagine Titania wouldn't be too happy about that. Harry might have to dodge attempts by Summer to reduce Winter's seeming 2 to 1 advantage in Knights. If Harry does have his full Winter power I don't think he has to obey Mab because she won't be his Mab. If Harry were to lose his Winter Knight mojo I would have to question whether his back has healed enough for him to be as athletic as he will probably need to be. That is why I think Harry will maintain at least some of the Winter Knight's ability to push through pain and keep going where a normal person would falter. Plus, he will still know Winter spells.
I think regular Harry will be mentally and emotional tougher than MM Harry. You could even say Harry will be more emotionally mature than his MM counterpart. Yes I know, the name Harry Dresden and the words emotional maturity don't usually go together, but in this case I think they do. MM Harry will be suave and appear to be more confidant and assured. Plus, he will have some magical abilities regular Harry will either not have access to or may have access to but ones he hasn't practiced, like necromancy. However, MM Harry's confidence will hide a deep insecurity that at some point in the story; most likely their final confrontation, regular Harry should be able to figure out and play upon.
I thought he'd have his Winter Knight Mantle, but now I'm thinking not. It will be another way of weakening him to fight his alter. However it will give him insight into how the Mantle had been changing him without noticing it. It will help him to have more control when he returns.
Harry Prime | MM Harry
Stable | Volatile, and unpredictable
Cares about people | See's them as tools or objects
Love / compassion | Anger, hatred, ruthless
Embraces creation | Embraces destruction
These personality traits will give you an idea of what fuels his magic I think. I think Prime Harry will be simply outmatched by MM's raw horsepower. He will also have the unique perspective of witnessing just how frightening he can be, something he couldn't have known until facing himself.
Harry has used both Soulfire and Hellfire. I'm wondering if MM Harry will be using something else. Anti-life power, or spirit energy or something like that connected to necromancy.
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I think mm Harry has enslaved Mavra with the word of Kemmler. That will give all kinds of interesting interactions. I do not think he will be winter night because he probably made other more evil choices. Thomas might be the winter knight. Mab could arrange that under the right circumstances.
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Have that woj source by any chance?
offhand, no. Wasn't in the main Woj section. Gonna have to search the transcripts directly. Question about pushing the middle back to changes and Harry's ooptions..
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Question: Has there been a part of The Dresden Files that you didn't plan out, but you just let play out on paper?
Jim: Well the fun part is when we got up to Changes Harry Dresden basically came to a big crossroads in his life and he got himself into a position where he was gonna have to make a deal with somebody if he was going to save his daughter's life. So he was gonna have to get faustian with someone and the question was- he had about three different options that he could take and which one was he going to take and I wasn't sure until I wrote the book which way he was going to go. So the Dresden Files could have looked like a very different series had he decided to take up one of the Fallen coins, one of the 30 silver coins with fallen angels in them. It would have turned out very differently if he'd taken up the old necromancer's- the book of Kemmler, and caused an ecological disaster to gather enough power to save his daughter. And there would have been very different views on that, the series would have come out in very different colours, very different palette depending on which way he went. But he went with- made a deal with Mab, the queen of air and darkness and off they went to save the universe Mab style.
-One of the Salt Lake Comic Cons from 2015 or earlier
https://www.paranetonline.com/index.php/topic,22558.msg2191567.html#msg2191567
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Thanks 👍
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I think Jim will go a different direction. Throughout the series Harry has depended on slinging ever-increasing amounts of power, but has always admitted that delicacy and subtle uses of power are the areas where he is most lacking.
My WAG for Mirror, Mirror is that whatever the situation is, it will require the focus and control of a neurosurgeon's scalpel, when Harry is most suited to and most used to wielding the equivalent of a chainsaw.
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I think Jim will go a different direction. Throughout the series Harry has depended on slinging ever-increasing amounts of power, but has always admitted that delicacy and subtle uses of power are the areas where he is most lacking.
My WAG for Mirror, Mirror is that whatever the situation is, it will require the focus and control of a neurosurgeon's scalpel, when Harry is most suited to and most used to wielding the equivalent of a chainsaw.
Because Harry's has often been forced to work without foci since he became the Winter Knight, his magical control has probably become much better. So, perhaps Harry Prime's control will make up; at least to some degree, Alt - Harry's advantage in raw magical strength.
On a different subject, the reason I wondered to what degree Harry's back has healed is because of the scene in Cold Days when Harry said, "Screw Winter Law" and suddenly the Winter magic that was holding his damaged back together deserted him and he collapsed to the floor. Winter was holding Harry together and allowing him to function, but it was his own wizard healing ability that was slowly rebuilding him back to normal. So if Harry lost contact with Winter magic in the MM world, IMO it's an open question how much his back has healed so Harry could at least move around like a normal healthy person.
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Because Harry's has often been forced to work without foci since he became the Winter Knight, his magical control has probably become much better. So, perhaps Harry Prime's control will make up; at least to some degree, Alt - Harry's advantage in raw magical strength.
On a different subject, the reason I wondered to what degree Harry's back has healed is because of the scene in Cold Days when Harry said, "Screw Winter Law" and suddenly the Winter magic that was holding his damaged back together deserted him and he collapsed to the floor. Winter was holding Harry together and allowing him to function, but it was his own wizard healing ability that was slowly rebuilding him back to normal. So if Harry lost contact with Winter magic in the MM world, IMO it's an open question how much his back has healed so Harry could at least move around like a normal healthy person.
I think Mab was just showing her power over Harry and that obeying winter law was part of the deal. Jim was asked about it once and he did so wonderfully not answer the question in a way that suggested this interpretation is wrong and we have to find a better one.
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Recent Woj about multiversal Mab makes me think he does not lose it by changing dimensions. Otherwise how would he still "work" for her?
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Because Harry's has often been forced to work without foci since he became the Winter Knight, his magical control has probably become much better. So, perhaps Harry Prime's control will make up; at least to some degree, Alt - Harry's advantage in raw magical strength.
I agree with you that Harry's control has become much better, and that could be an offsetting factor in the scenario I've posited. However, control does not equal delicacy. To go back to my original analogy, having excellent control over a chainsaw still doesn't help when the situation requires the precision of a scalpel.
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Recent Woj about multiversal Mab makes me think he does not lose it by changing dimensions. Otherwise how would he still "work" for her?
I figured that it would be one way to weaken him (he's always beat up when he finally faces a threat), and also to possibly cause some problems for when he gets back (The Mantle was in a kind of limbo)