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The Dresden Files => DF Spoilers => Topic started by: Shift8 on December 06, 2021, 12:59:20 AM
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There is no such thing as black magic in the Dresden files, and it is going to be a major plot point later.
Specifically, when I say there is no black magic, I mean that violating the laws of magic does not turn the user evil.
I am sure many of you reading this are thinking I am crazy because so many times in the DF we are told that black magic does this, that the Blackstaff is what keeps McCoy from going insane, that we have seen Harry deal with Warlocks that have gone insane, and that Harry and others can sense the taint of black magic.
Hear me out.
We get our information in the story from Harry, who in turn has gotten his perspective on black magic from the WC, McCoy, etc. But Harry believes two contradictory things about magic.
-He knows that in order to do magic, you have to believe in what you are doing. You have to have conviction in what you are doing with the magic.
-He also believes that people who violate the laws of magic turn evil over time because of it.
The problem with this is that if a person must believe in their magic to do it, than they were already as evil as whatever actions they took with it, by definition. Therefore, it is not black magic that turns a person evil. A person must be evil do do black magic. Therefore magic is as good or evil as any other tool, its being black or not depends entirely upon the use to which it is put.
-We dont really know what the blackstaff does, and we dont critically consider what we are told about it because confirmation bias makes us see what we want. We already think black magic corrupts, so the explanation seems plausible.
-We dont really know that warlocks were driven mad by their black magic. The state of mind of the warlocks is no different from, and entirely consistent with, a person doing evil in general. Its not uncommon for a bad person to get worse over time.
-This is true of every assumed example of black magic corruption in the books. There are no cases of evidence that can not be explained by normal human behavior.
Another thing to consider is that since the behavior of persons violating the laws can be entirely explained by normal human evil doing and psychology, than how could the White Council possibly know its corrupting anyone beyond their own self-corruption.
Epistemologically speaking, they couldn't. And that means they are claiming to know something they could possibly know, because they have no epistemically valid means of knowing it.
Several evidences other indications that black magic does not corrupt the user:
"As for violating the laws of magic themselves turning you good or evil, well. :) There’s something to be said on either side of the argument, in the strictest sense, though one side of the argument is definitely less incorrect than the other. But it’s going to take me several more books to lay it out, so there’s no sense in ruining the fun. :)"
Jim
Jim would have no reason to have to "lay it out" if the default assumption that Harry tells us from book one, that black magic corrupts, is true.
"I had to consider the possibility that she’d been trying to do the right thing: using her power to help someone in dire need. The thought made me uncomfortable as hell. I knew that the necromancers I’d met were deadly dangerous, and that if I wanted to survive a conflict with them, I would have to be ready to hit them fast and hard and without any doubts. That’s easy when the enemy is a frothing, psychotic monster. But Kumori’s apparently humanitarian act changed things. It made her a person, and people are a hell of a lot harder for me to think about killing. Even worse, if she’d been acting altruistically, it would mean that the dark energy the necromancers seemed to favor might not be something wholly, inherently evil. It had been used to preserve life, just as the magic I knew could be used either to protect or to destroy. I’d always considered the line between black magic and white to be sharp and clear. But if that dark power could be employed in whatever fashion its wielder chose, that made it no different from my own. Dammit. Investigation was supposed to make me certain of what needed to be done. It was not supposed to confuse me even more. When I opened my eyes, thick clouds had covered the sun and painted the whole world in shades of grey."
Jim Butcher. Dead Beat (Kindle Locations 3162-3172). Orbit. Kindle Edition.
I think this entire part of Dead Beat is clear foreshadowing that Harry's view on black magic isn't correct. He is clearly uncomfortable about the idea, and its a weird thing to put in the series if there isnt something to it.
-We know Luccio tells Dresden the laws are really about constraining the power of wizards.
"Note also the killing law only applies to Humans.You can kill as many faeries as you want with magic."
"Bingo. It hardly seems fair, does it?The Laws of Magic don't necessarily match up to the actual universal guidelines to how the universal power known as "magic" behaves. The consequences for breaking the Laws of Magic don't all come from people wearing grey cloaks. And none of it necessarily has anything to do with what is Right or Wrong. Which exist. It's finding where they start or stop existing that's the hard part."
Jim
Broadly speaking, I think the WC lies about this deliberately because it is easier to get people to follow the laws if they convince everyone that breaking them will mind fuck them into becoming evil, and because it gives the black magic an "icky" component, and many humans are motivated by disgust based morality. Additionally there is the aspect discussed by Harry about Kumori in Dead Beat. It dehumanizes perceived black mages and makes it easier to enforce the laws. The black staff is just a prop in the lie. They do this because the white council wants to control wizards, and keep the power to do certain things to itself.
Originally, I think this went back to the time of the original Merlin. I think that as far as the story goes this is all going to link together back to when Mab was Human and knew the Merlin. I think that the laws became a thing to try to limit the political influence of wizards after the original Merlin's dealings with King Arthur, and the mess that came from that. I think that whatever happened back then was so bad that the draconian laws of magic were put in place to make sure it never happened again, and that led to the current state of affairs where killing with magic to defend yourself as barely a defense, and things like necromancy go unexplored even though they may have valuable uses.
Furthermore, while I am not sure how this will all add up, I think the fact that Harry's mother was opposed to the laws of magic and that the details of her life are still a mystery is a big indicator that this is going to be a major plot point later. Its one of the only things we know about her, which is that she disagreed with the laws. I don't think information like that was put in the story idly.
But to sum it up I think the laws of magic are a lie and that this is going to be a central feature of the main plot of the series when it gets revealed.
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Interesting. Mind, "black magic makes you eviler" seems to accord with what we know about neural pathways, and how doing or thinking something can deepen or reset those pathways; for this reason, I think that "black magic makes you eviler" is true. It may, however, be like a truth we tell a child that is so simplified that it is not really true, or at any rate not universally so--kind of a magical "Mommy, where do babies come from?"
But for all of that nuance, I suspect that wizards who think as you propose generally find themselves becoming monsters. Dresden is certainly vulnerable, as he himself knows, and he's going to have to confront the ways in which he's changed or violated his moral code.
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I've posted this before, but I think the answer is that all magic has backlash- that is, it makes you more capable of duplicating a feat.
So it is less older wizards are stronger, and more they have less internal resistance to whatever they've already done.
Hence black magic backlash- it takes less energy to do the same.
And since magic is, to some extent, directing your feelings, ta da.
Example: If killing someone takes anger, magic used to kill shortens your fuse and increases your anger response
Edit: Also why older wizards are so resistant to mind tampering. They've crystallized, for want of a better term
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The problem with posing any sort of backlash is that is that if cannot be falsified because it cannot be distinguished from normal human tendencies.
-I shoot someone with a gun. Maybe next time its easier etc. But we have the ability to control our actions and it would be absurd to claim that one killing, especially if it was justified, inevitably leads to a person becoming evil.
-I shoot someone with some fire magic. It appears that it gets easier for me and I do it more and more often. Yet because this could have happened with any kind of human act, with or without magic.
See the problem? Its impossible to even propose, from a logical and epistemological standpoint, that doing bad things with magic causes a taint. The fact that the White Council is telling everyone that there is black magic is inherently suspicious because there would seem to be no rational manner in which a person would make this claim.
There is also the obvious problem that if, as Harry tells us, black magic corrupts because people have to believe in their evil desires to do black magic (which is true of doing things without magic but whatever...) why are there not more laws agaisnt obviously bad things?
For example, if doing evil with magic caused people to go insane, than the very tendency of humans to err should be causing every Wizard to go insane fairly regularly. The White Council should literally be up to its eyeballs in Warlocks who have all gone insane, in particular since the vast majority of evil acts humans can do are not regulated by the laws. Where is the law agaisnt rape via magic? Surely if murder causes wizard to go insane because they have invoked the "forces of creation" via their willing a person do die, than surely using magic to force someone to have sex would do the same?
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There is such a thing as black magic, I believe, it leaves it's mark on the user. The Loa in Death Masks saw "taints" of it on Harry.
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My theory is that the "taint" people see of "dark" magic in the books is something else entirely or simply not indicative of invariably become more evil with the use of black magic. I think the characters in the story see what they want to see and hear what the want to hear, so the pervasive belief in the black magic turning wizards evil results in a confirmation bias where everyone interprets what they see through that lens.
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I think the becoming something inhuman factor shouldn't be dismissed. I don't think the end all problem is it changes people. Indeed it does, but the choice, the control of it, is subsequently comprised by a being that would seem to come from the outside considering the black magic-outsider connections. So these beings violating free will similar to the fallen or demons cannot be detected or 'righted' by the Angelic order. They have no opposite to reign them in. So warlocks tend to go south alot more consistently, with no natural means to detect or fight the entity. Dresden being starborn helps him I'd bet.
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My theory is that the "taint" people see of "dark" magic in the books is something else entirely or simply not indicative of invariably become more evil with the use of black magic. I think the characters in the story see what they want to see and hear what the want to hear, so the pervasive belief in the black magic turning wizards evil results in a confirmation bias where everyone interprets what they see through that lens.
I believe in the Dresdenverse, Black Magic is real, or at least Harry gives a description of of it when he had his first battle with Cowl. I cannot remember if Cowl actually used it in the battle, but Harry describes a "greasy undertone or feeling" to Black Magic. That says it is a tangible force. I think of Black Magic in terms of addiction, it can produce big results with little effort, all the while giving the user a "rush" from the resulting power. As a result is it is very hard for the user or practitioner not to return to that well, and over time it changes how the user thinks and acts, and not in a good way.. So the simplistic explanation is the use of Black Magic makes the user evil.
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I don't deny that there are persons in the books that identify what they think is a taint from black magic. My point is that these characters, depending on which one we are referring to, are almost certainly either lying or subject to confirmation bias. If we stop to consider the conceptual problems with the very idea of black magic, or how such a thing could be known to exist, the proposition becomes very dubious indeed.
The issue, to reiterate, is that the idea of "evil magic" or the idea that "doing it turns you evil" independent of the purpose to which the magic is being put, or the mind of the user, is fundamentally incoherent. Which means it cannot be the case, even in a fantasy setting.
I know some will object with "its fantasy anything can be the case because the story says so!" But this simply is not the case. You can have elements of a fantasy story that are logically valid but don't exist in the real world. The problem is when you have things in a story which are logically impossible.
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he issue, to reiterate, is that the idea of "evil magic" or the idea that "doing it turns you evil" independent of the purpose to which the magic is being put, or the mind of the user, is fundamentally incoherent. Which means it cannot be the case, even in a fantasy setting.
It isn't that the magic itself is evil, it is that it is an extreme powerful shortcut. This does things to the those suseptable to the corrupting influences of that kind of power.
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It isn't that the magic itself is evil, it is that it is an extreme powerful shortcut. This does things to the those suseptable to the corrupting influences of that kind of power.
No doubt that power corrupts. But this would surely be the same for magic as it is with any other kind of power. The description of the effects of "black" magic given by the White Council goes way beyond merely being concerned about power (even if that is what Luccio tells Dresden later). They make the claim that people who violate the laws of magic invariably turn evil, regardless of their own will. Dresden specifically claims that the supposed reason is (Im paraphrasing) "killing someone with the forces of creation corrupts you etc". This goes hand in hand with their legal policy, which is to kill anyone (typically even for self defense) for violates these laws under the presumption that they will inevitably turn evil.
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No doubt that power corrupts. But this would surely be the same for magic as it is with any other kind of power. The description of the effects of "black" magic given by the White Council goes way beyond merely being concerned about power (even if that is what Luccio tells Dresden later). They make the claim that people who violate the laws of magic invariably turn evil, regardless of their own will. Dresden specifically claims that the supposed reason is (Im paraphrasing) "killing someone with the forces of creation corrupts you etc". This goes hand in hand with their legal policy, which is to kill anyone (typically even for self defense) for violates these laws under the presumption that they will inevitably turn evil.
Harry is proof that that isn't true, however he is also proof that it can be a slippery slope. I think the point you are missing is what corrupts isn't the magic itself but how easily and unfairly a wizard can kill or enthrall using his magic. This gives the wizard wielding such power a rush or I should say could, if this leads to them thinking they can take other liberties simply because they can, as in snuffing out life, forcing others to their will.. So while it doesn't always happen that way, it can, and often does in extreme cases, that is why the Seven Laws are nearly a zero tolerance policy..
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Harry is proof that that isn't true, however he is also proof that it can be a slippery slope. I think the point you are missing is what corrupts isn't the magic itself but how easily and unfairly a wizard can kill or enthrall using his magic. This gives the wizard wielding such power a rush or I should say could, if this leads to them thinking they can take other liberties simply because they can, as in snuffing out life, forcing others to their will.. So while it doesn't always happen that way, it can, and often does in extreme cases, that is why the Seven Laws are nearly a zero tolerance policy..
Not sure how Harry is proof of this. I dont recall him doing anything particularly bad. The worst thing he has done so far is rescue Thomas from the Svartalves without actual evidence that Thomas was innocent. But he was forced to do that by Mab.
In any case, if the corruption is not "due to the magic itself" than there is no corruption. At that point it is just like anything else, subject to the self-control of the user, and there is no reason for these things to be illegal in this way. Its also unclear to me how you would distinguish between the "rush" a user might feel from killing with magic and the rush they might get if they kill without magic.
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You may be right or you may be wrong. There is no way to settle it. But it can be true simply because Jim says so. It doesn't need to be internally consistent. Of the Seven Laws only two would seem to have a basis in black magic.
Thou shall not kill and Thou shall not invade the mind of another.
The second seems to drive young warlocks insane and the first does something to the aura of the wizard. It's implied in the text that mind magic may not always work that way, but it's notable that Peabody uses alchemy to do his work on the WC and the Wardens and that the Wardens use physical weapons rather then magic when dealing with mortals.
It's possible that necromancy as used by Kumori may do some harm that has not, at this point in the story, been revealed to us. However the Dark Hallow would have killed thousands had it succeed. With Kumori what she did may have absorbed life from the surrounding mortals, using it somewhat like the vampires do. This may be the basis of vampire killing Time will tell.
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But it can be true simply because Jim says so. It doesn't need to be internally consistent.
We might have to agree to disagree on this particular point. It could be true if Jim says so, in the sense that he means for it to be that way in the story, but even if he meant it that way it still makes the story worse because at that point it wont make any sense...even if Jim thinks otherwise. However I doubt any of that was his intention.
I am fine with it being possible that violations of the laws have other harms associated with them. I just dont think their is a invariable magical corruption at play.
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Not sure how Harry is proof of this. I dont recall him doing anything particularly bad. The worst thing he has done so far is rescue Thomas from the Svartalves without actual evidence that Thomas was innocent. But he was forced to do that by Mab.
Supposedly he did use it to kill Justin, plus Justin's attempts to enthrall him both left a "stain" of Black Magic on him as pointed out by the Loa. This is why at the same time he was made a wizard he was also called a warlock and placed under the Doom in Eb's care.
In any case, if the corruption is not "due to the magic itself" than there is no corruption. At that point it is just like anything else, subject to the self-control of the user, and there is no reason for these things to be illegal in this way. Its also unclear to me how you would distinguish between the "rush" a user might feel from killing with magic and the rush they might get if they kill without magic.
Think of magic as a gun, a gun alone isn't evil, a gun used properly, isn't evil nor does it corrupt it's user... A gun misused, does the opposite, it is evil, corrupts the user and makes him evil.
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Supposedly he did use it to kill Justin, plus Justin's attempts to enthrall him both left a "stain" of Black Magic on him as pointed out by the Loa. This is why at the same time he was made a wizard he was also called a warlock and placed under the Doom in Eb's care.
Think of magic as a gun, a gun alone isn't evil, a gun used properly, isn't evil nor does it corrupt it's user... A gun misused, does the opposite, it is evil, corrupts the user and makes him evil.
I thought he was saying Harrys actions after Justins killing were evidence of him being tainted. He has certainly violated the laws, I agree.
I agree a gun alone is not evil. But a gun used wrongly doesnt corrupt the user. The user corrupts themselves.
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We might have to agree to disagree on this particular point. It could be true if Jim says so, in the sense that he means for it to be that way in the story, but even if he meant it that way it still makes the story worse because at that point it wont make any sense...even if Jim thinks otherwise. However I doubt any of that was his intention.
I am fine with it being possible that violations of the laws have other harms associated with them. I just dont think their is a invariable magical corruption at play.
It's your book when you read it, so interpret it the way you see fit. But until Jim tells me in the text that Black Magic doesn't exist, then for me it exists. Even if I don't understand his rules.
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agree a gun alone is not evil. But a gun used wrongly doesnt corrupt the user. The user corrupts themselves.
No, there is blow back, and I agree with morriswalters as well on this, in the Dresdenverse, Black Magic exists. Because it is easy and give the user a false sense of power and importance it the first thing an unguided kid with talent reaches for without realizing what using it is doing to him or her.
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Some food for thought, from the Word of Jim website:
The Laws of Magic don’t necessarily match up to the actual universal guidelines to how the universal power known as “magic” behaves.
The consequences for breaking the Laws of Magic don’t all come from people wearing grey cloaks.
And none of it necessarily has anything to do with what is Right or Wrong.
Which exist. It’s finding where they start or stop existing that’s the hard part.
Jim
(Link: https://wordof.jim-butcher.com/index.php/word-of-jim-woj-compilation/woj-on-magic-in-the-dresden-files-part-2/ (https://wordof.jim-butcher.com/index.php/word-of-jim-woj-compilation/woj-on-magic-in-the-dresden-files-part-2/) )
What I get from this is: black magic exists, but the White Council's (and by extension, Harry's) understanding of it is incomplete and/or somewhat inaccurate. We can only trust what Harry says to a point... and I suspect he (and us readers) will discover more about the truth of black magic in a future book, likely Mirror Mirror, since we're going to see an Evil Harry in that novel.
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I think OP is wrong, but for basically the reasoning behind OP’s argument.
The argument that I’m understanding from OP is that you can’t distinguish black magic corruption from other forms of corruption epistemologically, and therefore black magic corruption isn’t a thing.
I agree with OP it’s difficult to distinguish black magic corruption from other forms of corruption epistemologically. But my conclusion is that black corrupts pretty much like every other course of action does.
When you choose to do something, you have definitionally made yourself someone who chose to do that thing. If you kill someone, you are empirically a killer. If you lie, you are empirically a liar. Etc. And behaviors are reinforced by identity in turn. Black magic corruption is more of the same: it’s just that there’s also a spiritual/mental intimacy with it that makes it more difficult to separate from the act.
Mind, this extends to GOOD acts, too. Someone who was an utter rat bastard who decides to be selflessly kind one becomes somebody who can be selflessly kind, by definition. And this can reinforce itself as well.
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So, I think I understand how you got here and I do think you're on to something in that there will be some reveals about black magic and some of it is to do with lies the White Council tells and Harry has believed.
I don't agree that it doesn't turn people evil at all though either, the truth is more nuanced. I also don't buy that a person would have to be evil to commit an act that would send them evil i.e. the magic is what you believe problem.
A simple example of that is that Harry could kill someone in self-defence and not necessarily be evil before that moment, yet in that moment he believed that person should die to stop himself or another from coming to harm. On the other hand, if Harry kept killing people with magic and eventually started executing people without proper consideration and just did it to solve a potential problem more easily then yes it might turn him evil (the White Council's response to Warlocks comes to mind, although they do attempt to use non-magical means to kill where they can).
Jim has often spoken about how to him (at least in terms of the Dresden Files), it's much more the results that matter than the intentions behind them. So even if you had darker thoughts, if you weren't acting on them you weren't necessarily evil. And if you're doing evil deeds, even if you're trying to do good and have the best intentions....well there is that old chestnut about the quality of pavings on a southbound road.
So as Morris above points out, it's not so much about the magic as whatever your actions result in regardless of whether magic is involved. That being said, I suspect using magic is like standing next to a radioactive material, and it's just more direct in how it changes you. You can't use the fundamental powers of Creation and not have the process change you one way or another. We are only human after all.
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Corrupting acts tend to corrupt, whether magical or mundane. I think the seven laws are merely to prevent magic and by its extension the White Council and its practitioners as being seen to be corrupt.
They don’t care about heinous acts committed by their members if no magic is involved. A wizard can be the worst paedophile attacking generation upon generation of apprentices, but using purely mundane methods of control, it’s only if they use magic does the White Council care. Doubtless that does happen, some people will use their positions of influence and power in whatever hierarchy they can gain prominence in, a church, a business, a society etc.
Ideally I would like to see Harry/Jim address this in Next Book, that an apprentice he has helped place in the past comes to him for help because the White Council will do nothing about his abusive master who has a past history of abuse.
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I think that is exactly the point. It doesn't matter whether magic is involved or not, as I suspect Sin (or something like it) exists within the world of the Dresden Files. By which I mean, evil. But the source of it is the question. Is it from the Outside? Is it from the Devil? Or is it generated by mortals? Very tricky to answer without more knowledge.
But I wouldn't say the Laws of Magic exist merely to preserve the White Council's good image. The only people who would care are other mortal practitioners. No, I think that the Laws truly were made to stop wizards turning into demigods and violating the free will of mortals. Whether they actually achieve that is still questionable, and as often shown and discussed, they don't really deal with right and wrong.
I suspect it isn't so much that they don't care about heinous acts as they are very careful about how they define it. Lucio's discussion with Dresden was very illuminating.
To use your example (and I just want to point out we are skating close to the line of Touchy Topics so let's just all be careful here), a wizard paedophile who wasn't violating any of the Laws or Council rules would not be subject to their punishments. Not only that, but defining such a character is more tricky than you might imagine. The age of legal marriage varies greatly across the world even today sadly, and while generally most cultures in most times consider prepubescent people children (and therefore consider any sexual relations with them paedophilia) unfortunately it isn't always the case. When you get then factor in other time periods as well where people got married earlier and lived shorter lives...it becomes even trickier. I bring this up because there would be wizards alive on the White Council who might come from a time and place who don't see the issue with marrying a 14 year old or whatever. And they wouldn't even necessarily be in the minority, as it seems the Council's average age is around a century or more.
So disciplining such individuals wouldn't only be difficult, but probably considered outside the scope of the White Council's remit. Unless of course they used magic. In which case I suspect there would be many wizards who would take great satisfaction from going after such monsters.
What is suspect is a really interesting question is whether such monsters, if they don't use magic to carry out and/or fascilitate their abuse, would their magic end up warping to black magic? My guess would eventually be yes, but the Laws don't cover that. I guess what I am saying is that while using black magic will warp and individual faster, a person not using black magic will still become warped by doing evil deeds, even if they don't end up becoming a gibbering warlock in appearance.
There is a qualitative difference in how black magic changes a mortal than committing evil through mundane means. As I said above, you can't use the forces of Creation without consequences.
It would be a very interesting area for the books to follow, I agree. I think Jim would do a good job of it and treat the subject matter respectfully. And the next book would be a reasonable place to do such a thing, although I suspect Harry might be a bit busy dealing with his own trauma and and fallout. But hey, it could be a subplot. Otherwise a short story might work. Then again, Jim might want to avoid the potential minefield. Which is understandable.
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No “black” magic, only “black” magicians,
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To use your example (and I just want to point out we are skating close to the line of Touchy Topics so let's just all be careful here), a wizard paedophile who wasn't violating any of the Laws or Council rules would not be subject to their punishments. Not only that, but defining such a character is more tricky than you might imagine. The age of legal marriage varies greatly across the world even today sadly, and while generally most cultures in most times consider prepubescent people children (and therefore consider any sexual relations with them paedophilia) unfortunately it isn't always the case. When you get then factor in other time periods as well where people got married earlier and lived shorter lives...it becomes even trickier. I bring this up because there would be wizards alive on the White Council who might come from a time and place who don't see the issue with marrying a 14 year old or whatever. And they wouldn't even necessarily be in the minority, as it seems the Council's average age is around a century or more.
Tip toeing very carefully around a very touchy topic here, but I think that one of the Seven Laws the White Council is very serious about is enthrallment. If you go back and read the earliest descriptions of it, what Justin did to Elaine and attempted to do to Harry had sexual elements to it. At the time both Elaine and Harry were minors. Now that image has changed over the books, or Harry's memory of what really happened has changed, but that mirrors somewhat what happens to the memories of those abused. In Harry's first memories, it isn't just enthrallment, but the corruption of two minors by Justin.
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No “black” magic, only “black” magicians,
Could be semantics potentially. To speak of one might be to speak of the other. Mortals can influence reality to such a massive degree with their choices after all, it could be as simple as whatever the majority of humans believe is evil makes it evil in a cosmic sense.
I am not saying that's the case by the way, but it's possible.
Tip toeing very carefully around a very touchy topic here, but I think that one of the Seven Laws the White Council is very serious about is enthrallment. If you go back and read the earliest descriptions of it, what Justin did to Elaine and attempted to do to Harry had sexual elements to it. At the time both Elaine and Harry were minors. Now that image has changed over the books, or Harry's memory of what really happened has changed, but that mirrors somewhat what happens to the memories of those abused. In Harry's first memories, it isn't just enthrallment, but the corruption of two minors by Justin.
I thought you did very well there Mira, I appreciate the care you have shown here.
I agree wholeheartedly that the implication with Harry and Elaine is that some of their abuse from Justin could have had a sexual nature. Arguably, even the fact that Justin put them together as minors and did nothing to discourage their experimenting let alone potentially encouraging it (and.or manipulating things to ensure it) could be argued as abuse, I am sure DOCS would view it with a particularly dim view.
I got the impression that Jim was potentially going to use the next book to reveal and have Harry deal with some of this stuff, along with anything else he may have to deal with.