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The Dresden Files => DF Spoilers => Topic started by: Yuillegan on June 03, 2020, 06:06:29 AM
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I always like to ask this question when something happens as it tends to help discover motive.
The downfall of the Red Court was inevitable. Harry was the tool, but not the wielder. He is a powerful tool but not moving pieces on the board.
So when we look at the demise of the Red Court, we have to examine who benefits the most in order to understand who might have wielded Harry and what that means for the future.
Nicodemus Archleone - He found them "annoying in the short-term, difficult in the mid-term, and dangerous to any long-term plan". But wouldn't the Red Court benefit from an apocalypse? They could hunt humanity with impunity, no White Council or Venatori to stop them. Perhaps, like the White Court, they weren't the biggest bully on the playground and realised they liked how things were. If the world turned all End of Days they might end up being beaten up by the really nasty bad guys. So it's easy to see why the Red Court might attempt to stop him. Assuming his goal was merely suffering. Jim has sort-of implied that Nicodemus' end goal is to end Reality altogether - I can imagine most of the bad guys who exist on "our" side of the Gates might have an issue with that.
But the Red Court have been destroyed. So is Nicodemus one step further to achieving Empty Night?
What else did the destruction of the Red Court achieve? Well for a start, it seems to have created the right conditions for the Fomor to emerge. Now it seems pretty obvious that the Fomor (like the Red Court initially) were actually preparing for hostilities rather than being provoked/baited into emerging. It does seem like Harry might have forced their hand (just like he did when he started the war with the Vampires), but just like the Reds they always intended to attack the mortal world.
So what does the emergence of the Fomor achieve? Well a more hostile climate for mortals, the probably destruction of the already battered White Council (and their allies), and perhaps a less-restricted magical community. Curiously, a Cantrev Lord of the Fomor would have been a Welsh Lord (as the Word Cantrev/Cantref roughly translates as community - "cant" is 100 and "ref/rev" is town). This indicates a further connection with the Chronicles of Prydain, but more on that later.
Who else benefits from the Reds disappearance? I am obviously leaving out the Grey Council (and Vadderung, Mab and Uriel etc) because their stated reason is protecting humanity which I will take on faith at this point. A number of villains and characters, such as Marcone and Cowl haven't directly stated their intent (unless I am mistaken) to wipe out the Reds yet massively have benefited from the destruction of the Red Court.
Also, it is clear that the Reds were merely fulfilling a function rather than being players. Where the Reds failed it seems likely the Fomor will succeed. Which suggests to me the manipulators are not necessarily the Fomor (although they might be embedded in it) but they two merely serve as a cats-paw of a more nebulous threat (Nemesis/Black Council). The goal currently appears to be a shattering of the status quo and to redraw the lines on the board, so to speak. Only a few characters have indicated more abstract or nihilistic ideals (such as conquering death or ending existence).
Cowl also seems to be an almost cutout of Arawn Death-Lord (from the Chronicles of Prydain). Two great enchanters, both hooded and hidden always, both use necromancy. Arawn was also a notoriously good shapeshifter, and Cowl seems to at least be pretty good at least at some level of magical disguise (zombie in Dead Beat). It wouldn't surprise me at all to find out he had appeared in other books with a different face. Which isn't to say that he is merely, for example, Mac and Cowl. He could also be Cowl, Simon and Mac. Or perhaps only Mac in one scene? We might not see his face for a while if we ever do.
I bring this up because there are a few characters who are apparently bad guys who might not be and good guys who might not be.
A character who has been accused before is the Erlking. He fits the Horned King shape well, but his actions don't. However, it could be that Cowl and the Black Council are only indirectly working with the Outsiders. They might not want an end to Reality, just a New Order. Which might mean that some previously "good" characters might still be bad guys - just not necessarily the worst guys (Old Ones, Outsiders).
So where does this leave us? Closer to the end of the world, I'd say. But also that there are several others who are closer to their own goals who may not have direct association with the Fomor.
Can you guys think of anyone else who benefits from the events of the books, things like the destruction of the Reds but who might not have been overtly backing Harry or perhaps had ulterior motives beyond "saving the humans etc".
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Everybody benefited. The Reds bred like rabbits.
Uriel, Mab and Vadderung, were the prime movers.
The setup is very similar to what happened off the page in the attack at Arctis Tor. Someone led the force in. They assault the stronghold but the final chapter differs. If you assume that Cowl would have been there if he had ascended, his not being there changed the purpose of the attack.
In Changes Harry is the pathfinder. He finds a way in past their defenses. Leas summons the troops. The fight lets him get in close and seal the deal. And of course the purpose of the attack was always to exterminate the Reds. The Merlin told you as much.
Add to that, Changes, Cold Days and Skin Game are all revenge stories with the theme, Thou shalt not F**k with Mab. I like revenge stories.
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Nicodemus: What if his goal is to defend creation by eliminating those who are capable of letting the Outsiders in, i.e., mortals? Not my theory, but it would be motivation for getting rid of them. The Red Court will not want humanity to be wiped out. As far as I can tell, humans are there only food source or means of reproduction. Same justification works if Nicodemus does want to end reality.
Fomor: Evidence of them being more active than we would have guessed: Even Hand, the Marcone short story, takes place 8 months before Changes. They created the animals Nicodemus used in DM and the chemical weapons used in DB.
I do think Morris is right that Uriel, Mab, and Vadderung were the prime movers.
Others, like Lea and Marcone, had an ax to grind with the Red Court, but those grievances didn't rise to the level of wiping out the entire Red Court.
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If I'm honest I don't think anyone truly benefitted, not in the way that would cause them to be a major mover around it. IT seems more like everything was shaken just enough to mess up the status quo and alliances, but not enough to galvanize anyone. It seems like the people benefitting most were the people who had the least use for the accords
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On the money, Archangel62. There are quite a few people who no longer wish to be constrained by Accords or Laws or anything.
Bad Alias - I agree with the Nicodemus stuff but I can't be certain he just wants to end Humanity. Then again, the way Jim puts it makes me think Nicodemus believes his plan will save the universe but might unwittingly end up destroying it.
Yes, I too think the Fomor have been moving behind the scenes much earlier than we realised. I think they might have been even in Fool Moon.
Morris - Obviously Uriel, Mab and Vadderung set things up. But perhaps they unintentionally aided their enemies. Hard to say though. Perhaps everyone just wanted the Reds gone, like the Black Court. And quite right, it does mirror the attack at Arctis Tor - good pick up. The Merlin could well have hinted at the final destruction but that isn't yet clear. Don't be so sure that he will be happy with Harry. Remember he set up the current balance of power, he might not be pleased that Harry has unmade it.
Quite right about the revenge stories. But what does that make Peace Talks and Battle Ground?
To my mind, the books tend to repeat certain things only bigger. So I think Peace Talks is going to be like White Night and Battle Ground like Changes perhaps but on a bigger scale.
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I think they might have been even in Fool Moon.
Somebody certainly was. Why not them? My answer is that it was likely Cowl. I think he was the one behind most of the early stuff. I have no evidence.
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I believe in the FBI agent Denton's soul (during the soulgaze) Harry saw him kneel at the feet of "hooded figures" so Cowl is probably right. Which doesn't exclude Fomor involvement, even if Cowl isn't working with the Fomor...which I think he is.
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Red Court made the same mistake Black Court and now Nicodemus has made. They grew too powerful and pissed off everyone. Uriel, Vaderung, Mab. As the major lords they pissed off. Between the three of them they had enough foresight and right manipulation to take the entire Redcourt all down. Of course that also means they knew the Red Court had primed the bloodline curse with innocents, so thats some dark Machiavellian sacrifice right there.
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Not sure I agree that Nicodemus made the same mistake as the Black Court. He made the mistake of crossing someone stronger than him, more ruthless than him and perhaps more dangerous than him. He has crossed a lot of enemies and he was playing against a stacked deck.
The Black Court was just scarily powerful, and in a short time. I think it wasn't any one person who orchestrated their destruction. Even their "allies" preferred them gone.
I wouldn't count Uriel in the destruction of the Red Court...his effect his more cosmic. He can wipe out universes remember. Think about Mouse versus Evil Foo Dog. I think that is closer to his level of conflict, it's reality altering. He makes things go the good guys way. And I think the really high-tier bad guys (like the Walkers) do the same. It's probability altering to a point but it's also "good" verse "evil" energy in the world. I think these big beings always have a counter so can't just unload how they like so they have to play chess...but then when things align they get to do something. Or they cheat but then the good guys can respond the same.
Mab and Vadderung probably were not merely working against the Lords of the Outer Night. I suspect even Vadderung and Mab have similar reality warping power...part of why Vadderung showed up to Chichen Itza was to counter the LoON perhaps. In fact, I am sure Mab does. That whole fight that Harry sees between her and Titania in Summer Knight when he uses his Sight. But I also think they were working against the Circle/Black Council who was behind the scenes.
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I think Uriel was involved based on Harry's conversation with Uriel in Changes.
[Harry literally begs for help, and Uriel responds]:
"I have already done what I can."
"But you've done nothing," I said.
"From your point of view, I suppose that's true."
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"Your daughter, Maggie, is alive and well. For now."
...
"Why tell me that?" I asked him.
"Because I have done all that I can," he said. "From here, it is up to you. You are Maggie's only hope."
Eliminating Harry's doubts and telling him he is Maggie's only hope is definitely enough to push him into acting if Harry wasn't already there. And he's already done stuff to help Harry, but Harry can't see that from his point of view.
Not necessarily on point, but Uriel is sad and uncomfortable in his conversation with Harry. It also seems to me that Uriel regrets his part in Harry's situation. The implications of that are interesting. It could just be that Uriel, with his intellectus, understands Harry's pain very intimately like "Jake the janitor" described how the White God would. It could also be he knows that he is causing/pushing Harry to take a path so dark that it would be better for Harry if he were to die.
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Removing the Reds removed the noise. It was easier to hide in the crowd. Now the shadow players have to act without having someone to shield them.
Morris - Obviously Uriel, Mab and Vadderung set things up. But perhaps they unintentionally aided their enemies. Hard to say though. Perhaps everyone just wanted the Reds gone, like the Black Court. And quite right, it does mirror the attack at Arctis Tor - good pick up. The Merlin could well have hinted at the final destruction but that isn't yet clear. Don't be so sure that he will be happy with Harry. Remember he set up the current balance of power, he might not be pleased that Harry has unmade it.
Quite right about the revenge stories. But what does that make Peace Talks and Battle Ground?
To my mind, the books tend to repeat certain things only bigger. So I think Peace Talks is going to be like White Night and Battle Ground like Changes perhaps but on a bigger scale.
The Merlin didn't hint, he flatly stated it.“No,” Langtry said. “So they never knew it was coming. Period. We will no longer wage a war with that filth, cold, hot, or otherwise. We’re going to destroy them, root and branch.” He lifted his chin slightly as his voice turned to frost. “We’re going to exterminate them.”
In term of revenge in the short term, Mab is finished, everybody who screwed with her has suffered. The Black Council or whatever you want to call them are a stretch goal.
From a Doylist point of view it looks like Jim is decluttering. It's time for the foreground to clear out and bring the Black Council out from the shadows. Jim's treated the Formor like comic strip bad guys. Are they the dog wagging the tail or are they the tail getting wagged by the Black Council? I see the two book combo as being the beginning of the end. The Black Council arc.
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@Morris: I don't know if your right, but that definitely makes sense to me.
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This actually gives me a side hypothesis. Different factions wanting Harry might want him because of some destiny or alignment of powers...or they just might want to have the guy who is considered a crazy powerful magic thug who can punch out of his weightclass on their team (if only so he's inside the tent pissing out not outside the tent pissing in). Like Mab threatens to send her knight and people knowing it's Dresden take an "I'll be good" stance.
I don't think they fully wanted the red court gone at thje speed it happen. Harry ripped them out stem and root, and did it in one fell swoop. Doing that created a major disruption to the balance of power
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Removing the Reds removed the noise. It was easier to hide in the crowd. Now the shadow players have to act without having someone to shield them.
I think that's a reasonable hypothesis. Without the Reds there is one less cat's paw to use. I suspect the next book will reveal if the Fomor are the hand wielding the weapon or if they are just the replacement for the Red Court...it could well be the that the enemy behind the scenes has several supernatural factions working for it. In fact, it's more than likely as that gives it more options and power. Merely having the one cat's paw is too risky.
The Merlin didn't hint, he flatly stated it. “No,” Langtry said. “So they never knew it was coming. Period. We will no longer wage a war with that filth, cold, hot, or otherwise. We’re going to destroy them, root and branch.” He lifted his chin slightly as his voice turned to frost. “We’re going to exterminate them.”
I have several problems with that line. But while the symmetry/foreshadowing is clear...it doesn't necessarily follow that he was saying "We are going to use the Red Court's blood curse against them to wipe them out completely". It wouldn't surprise me if he did know about the blood curse and may well have even come to the same conclusion. But that isn't outright saying. He is still only implying at this point - if he had actually told us we would have known the climax before we got there. Also, the Merlin (Arthur Langtry) is British. I doubt he has ever lived long enough in the USA to assimilate cultural idioms like saying "Period" instead of "Full Stop". In Commonwealth English (British) they say Full Stop in the same way American English uses the word "Period" - to strengthen the emphasis of the utterance. I am sure when Jim was writing he was in the heat of writing frenzy and so it didn't occur to him...but it's a shame it wasn't picked up on. It's a very minor gripe of mine, an authenticity and immerssion issue. But still.
And I know Langtry was in America (for whatever reason) during the French and Indian War which I imagine he fought on the side of the British American colonies and Ebenezar fought alongside the French. Jim hasn't said which side each were on (unless I am mistaken) but it makes the most sense for Eb to be fighting for the little guys. Perhaps this is how he and Listens-to-Wind became such good friends.
In term of revenge in the short term, Mab is finished, everybody who screwed with her has suffered. The Black Council or whatever you want to call them are a stretch goal.
Yeah I would agree with that.
From a Doylist point of view it looks like Jim is decluttering. It's time for the foreground to clear out and bring the Black Council out from the shadows. Jim's treated the Formor like comic strip bad guys. Are they the dog wagging the tail or are they the tail getting wagged by the Black Council? I see the two book combo as being the beginning of the end. The Black Council arc.
As I say above, you may well be right.
Bad Alias - Interesting idea. But if I recall he says it wouldn't be too much of an imbalance to let Dresden know Maggie was both his daughter and alive. He also through in that Dresden was her only hope. Perhaps Uriel can feel Dresden's pain that intimately. Either way, Uriel is just as manipulative (perhaps more so) as Mab or Anduriel or Lasciel. He does it with "the Greater Good" in mind but ultimately by choosing to say something, by being involved at all, he is taking a position and influencing events. This says a lot about Uriel, to my mind.
Achangel62 - are you saying that these "factions" did want the Reds gone but not as quickly or fully as it happened in Changes? It seems counter-intuitive. If you want them gone at all then you want them wiped out. Why would the Black Council or whoever want to only kill them slowly or cripple them? Same with Mab or Vadderung (who benefited from the destruction of the Reds).
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I have several problems with that line. But while the symmetry/foreshadowing is clear...it doesn't necessarily follow that he was saying "We are going to use the Red Court's blood curse against them to wipe them out completely". It wouldn't surprise me if he did know about the blood curse and may well have even come to the same conclusion. But that isn't outright saying. He is still only implying at this point - if he had actually told us we would have known the climax before we got there. Also, the Merlin (Arthur Langtry) is British. I doubt he has ever lived long enough in the USA to assimilate cultural idioms like saying "Period" instead of "Full Stop". In Commonwealth English (British) they say Full Stop in the same way American English uses the word "Period" - to strengthen the emphasis of the utterance. I am sure when Jim was writing he was in the heat of writing frenzy and so it didn't occur to him...but it's a shame it wasn't picked up on. It's a very minor gripe of mine, an authenticity and immerssion issue. But still.
And I know Langtry was in America (for whatever reason) during the French and Indian War which I imagine he fought on the side of the British American colonies and Ebenezar fought alongside the French. Jim hasn't said which side each were on (unless I am mistaken) but it makes the most sense for Eb to be fighting for the little guys. Perhaps this is how he and Listens-to-Wind became such good friends.
Since Jim doesn't speak the Queens English don't expect the correct use of idiom. He uses the word "root and branch" and "exterminate" to describe what he intends. Either he was bragging or he had found a way to do what he says he'll do. I have no idea why Jim chose to write that passage.
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But if I recall he says it wouldn't be too much of an imbalance to let Dresden know Maggie was both his daughter and alive. He also through in that Dresden was her only hope. Perhaps Uriel can feel Dresden's pain that intimately. Either way, Uriel is just as manipulative (perhaps more so) as Mab or Anduriel or Lasciel. He does it with "the Greater Good" in mind but ultimately by choosing to say something, by being involved at all, he is taking a position and influencing events. This says a lot about Uriel, to my mind.
Yes to all of that, except I'm not sure if I would got with manipulative. The definition of manipulative often contains words like selfish, unfair, or unscrupulous. I'd probably go with calculating.
I'm more worried about Vadderung helping Harry for his own purposes than Uriel.
Achangel62 - are you saying that these "factions" did want the Reds gone but not as quickly or fully as it happened in Changes? It seems counter-intuitive. If you want them gone at all then you want them wiped out. Why would the Black Council or whoever want to only kill them slowly or cripple them? Same with Mab or Vadderung (who benefited from the destruction of the Reds).
It has been suggested several times that the Black Council is pitting forces against one another in a manner that leaves everyone worse off. A decisive victory one way or the other would be counter to this strategy ... unless it leads to more chaos like we see when the Fomor emerge.
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... And I know Langtry was in America (for whatever reason) during the French and Indian War which I imagine he fought on the side of the British American colonies and Ebenezar fought alongside the French. Jim hasn't said which side each were on (unless I am mistaken) but it makes the most sense for Eb to be fighting for the little guys. Perhaps this is how he and Listens-to-Wind became such good friends ...
I'm pretty sure Eb & LtW fought on opposite sides; WoJ says they had a pretty epic duel. Obviously, they (eventually) reconciled, but I've no clear notion who was on which side of the broader mundane/political conflict, or what may have been happening behind the scenes, on the supernatural stage.
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Achangel62 - are you saying that these "factions" did want the Reds gone but not as quickly or fully as it happened in Changes? It seems counter-intuitive. If you want them gone at all then you want them wiped out. Why would the Black Council or whoever want to only kill them slowly or cripple them? Same with Mab or Vadderung (who benefited from the destruction of the Reds).
My thoughts are that it might have been the difference between a bombing run and a controlled demolition. Removing them the way that happened as fast and direct as ended up occurring meant that there was now a hole to fill and if they didn't have agents set up either some other faction could fill that void or their people might be able to take it but might not be fully prepared. They also may have hoped to further weaken the white council with having them keep fighting and struggling. The time honored tradition of 'let's you and him fight"
Also a longer fight might mean that they could make pacts and deals, get information, tools or other resources from an increasingly desperate red court. They also might be able to find agents here and there that they could set up to handle other tasks.