Reading his comments make me think that Odin may not have hit the Titan with everything he had. He acted deliberately. He knew she'd claim his weapon, setting her up. He also wanted Dresden to end up with the Eye which wouldn't have been the case if he'd struck her down.
.
Yeah. I think Odin's a lot like (Infinity War)Exactly, he wanted her to get a hold of his spear, then it was in position where he could do real damage.He knew what he was doing before he did it. I think we can say that just about every time we've seen Odin.(click to show/hide)
Him showing up as Kringle and the Wild Hunt to help Harry lead it.
Hmm I kinda think Battle Grounds ws the last sentence of the WOJ
"Of course, sometimes everyone’s knowledge and forethought cancels each other’s actions out, and then it’s time to get all Monday Night Nitro. No one in the Dresden Files universe is really sure how that would shake out. But everyone on that level knows that they might be about to find out"
Until I have definitive proof otherwise or until it becomes more relevant.
I think Cold Days and Skin Game is more an example of his planning things out. A few key conversations with Harry that manipulate events into saving the day.
Him showing up as Kringle and the Wild Hunt to help Harry lead it.
or Kringle recommending Goodman Grey, warning Harry about Anduriels limits.
Battle Ground was the Battle Royal.
I agree with you. This was Titania at the height of her powers on the Summer Solstice. She did deflect the Eye which was awesome, and it was at night so it's possible she was weaker than the day. Those facts could make a difference in the fight but, if they could have won I think Titania, Odin, and the Erlking would prefer that to getting rag-dolled like trees in a hurricane.Especially since Vadderung is still mad about getting ragdolled like that six months later.
I don't think anyone was pulling punches. The Eye was a threat to the laws of reality itself. Newtonian chaos was about to break out on Earth. There was no do-over for this. There was no going back to the benches to figure out what to do next.On that note I do wonder what the long term effects of that are going to be. Are they going to find out that you can't rebuild skyscrapers toppled by the eye because reality is just broken there? Is Chicago just going to have to deal with super-ghosts and easy access by everything else from now on?
I don't see the big guns playing five-rounded Russian roulette with reality so Harry could have a big moment.
I don't think anyone was pulling punches. The Eye was a threat to the laws of reality itself. Newtonian chaos was about to break out on Earth. There was no do-over for this. There was no going back to the benches to figure out what to do next.
I don't see the big guns playing five-rounded Russian roulette with reality so Harry could have a big moment.
I admit that I see characters from a raw power point of view, like Dresden apparently. Jim goes into more detail though, and it is interesting, and makes one have to look at things differently than a straight forward 1 on 1 fist fight.As I said when this theory was first floated, Gungnir's self-defence protocol is a direct rip from Dungeons & Dragons Deities & Demigods 1st edition. Jim has told us that he was a big 1st edition player, and has an entire story about how he was asked to review 4e when it came out. He wasn't happy to say the least. But he also names his preference for 1e as that's what he started with. Anyway, the Odin in that manual for Deities and Demigods has Gungnir, which has the ability to transmogrify whoever touches it without Odin's permission. Jim obviously upgraded the defence protocol to something way more awesome, but he clearly borrowed the idea. As far as I am aware, there are no other works that have Gungnir having a defence mechanism. It doesn't have anything like that in the original myths either (it only was supposed to fly true when thrown and keep going until it found it's mark, and in some version wherever it was pointed war would break out or turn the tide of battle - hence "swaying one").
sapph42: You’ve talked about beings who were on similar (or greater) power levels as Mab – Titania (obviously), Drakul, and Ferrovax to name a few. However, I believe that list was generated before Changes. Where does Odin fall on that list? Hypothetically (assuming they exist), where would entities such as Zeus or Quetzalcoatl fall?
Jim: Your question presupposes a linear hierarchy–which isn’t surprising, since the series has come from Harry’s viewpoint, and Harry is a straight-lines kind of thinker. Power is a much more nebulous thing than that, and something that is problematic to quantify. I think a reasonably simple argument could be made that Molly is a /much/ more powerful wizard than Dresden, for example. And in many situations, she probably is. Dresden tends to think in terms of “who would win this slugfest” when he’s dealing with the supernatural world because, well, of all the slugfests.
Odin isn’t gonna slugfest with you. He /could/. But that isn’t the Allfather’s style. Odin saw you coming last year, and he made his countermoves to what you’re doing right now a week and a half ago. For guys like him, fights are what happen when you /fail/ to win with /real/ power–knowledge and forethought.
Of course, sometimes everyone’s knowledge and forethought cancels each other’s actions out, and then it’s time to get all Monday Night Nitro. No one in the Dresden Files universe is really sure how that would shake out. But everyone on that level knows that they might be about to find out
Reading his comments make me think that Odin may not have hit the Titan with everything he had. He acted deliberately. He knew she'd claim his weapon, setting her up. He also wanted Dresden to end up with the Eye which wouldn't have been the case if he'd struck her down.
Of course, sometimes everyone’s knowledge and forethought cancels each other’s actions out, and then it’s time to get all Monday Night Nitro. No one in the Dresden Files universe is really sure how that would shake out. But everyone on that level knows that they might be about to find out.That's what Battle Ground was - Monday Night Nitro. We saw Vadderung with his back against the wall, same for Mab and the others. We got to see what happens when everyone's forethought gets cancelled out. Also, Monday Night Nitro was a wrestling event in the 90s. Jim has said repeatedly that many gods that retired became pro-wrestlers (I am not sure if this will work or not...but I can't judge until I see Jim do it). Battle Ground has several gods going to war (which is basically the tagline of MNN).
What is telling is at the end of Cold Days is the little talk between Kringle and Harry about whether or not Kringle let him win the little fight to take the lead of the Wild Hunt. On one hand Kringle said that no one "lets" someone win the fight for leadership, but on the other hand he didn't answer really when Harry asked if that meant he could kick his ass another time. I have to go back to read the exact wording but that is the gist of what I remember of the conversation to mean.Don't forget Molly's latest short story "The Good People".
I cleared out of my parents’ house before Kringle was due to arrive. Kringle was an absolute grizzly bear about his territory, and not even the Winter Lady was willing to cross that old man on Christmas Eve–especially not after the Battle of Chicago. He’d gotten laid out along with virtually everyone else who had tried to go toe-to-toe with a Titan, and he hadn’t liked it.
I don't think anyone was pulling punches. The Eye was a threat to the laws of reality itself. Newtonian chaos was about to break out on Earth. There was no do-over for this. There was no going back to the benches to figure out what to do next.Exactly.
I don't see the big guns playing five-rounded Russian roulette with reality so Harry could have a big moment.
Battle Ground was the Battle Royal.Agreed.
It's completely speculative to say Odin "allowed" his spear to be stolen, as there isn't any passage from the text that even hints that was the case.
Does it have to be? Odin is smacked, hard seemingly out, but he isn't. Then as the Titan is aboutI mean, he was out, he got up enough to mutter a word a few minutes later while Ethniu was dogpiled but he was firmly out of the fight besides that trick at that point.
to do something with it, his says a word and it explodes in her face and does so much damage that Lara and her ladies just happen to be there to kick it from her head from behind. That screams set up.
I mean, he was out, he got up enough to mutter a word a few minutes later while Ethniu was dogpiled but he was firmly out of the fight besides that trick at that point.
I don't think anyone was pulling punches. The Eye was a threat to the laws of reality itself. Newtonian chaos was about to break out on Earth. There was no do-over for this. There was no going back to the benches to figure out what to do next.
I don't see the big guns playing five-rounded Russian roulette with reality so Harry could have a big moment.
Hmm I kinda think Battle Grounds ws the last sentence of the WOJ...
Battle Ground was the Battle Royal.
Battle Ground was the Battle Royal.
Was he? Amazing isn't it, that he managed to mutter the exact right word, at the exact right time. That is why I mentioned "rope a dope," if you are a boxing fan, and even if you aren't most people have heard of the strategy of the late great Mohamed Ali in the latter years of his boxing career. He'd lean back on the ropes for several rounds, yes, take a lot of punishment, it would even look like he was losing, but then when the time was right, he'd deliver the knock out punch. I'm thinking that Odin played rope a dope with Ethniu, and when she thought she had the upper hand, he delivered the knock out punch.
That said, it IS intriguing that Chicago has 2 Swords and a Denarian on standby when a Titan comes knocking, and the third Sword coming in on time - almost as if the Angels (Fallen or not) did have sufficient foresight to predict a threat of this magnitude, and prepared for it. Almost makes you wonder if Lucy cheated in SF just to allow Uriel to upgrade his pawn to a Knight for this fight, though that may be attributing too much collusion.
Alright I agree with you, however I do believe Odin has backup plans for backup plans incase he failed, and it was for her to take his weapon as her own, and for him to use it against her.I'll totally buy that Odin had a spell on his gear to protect it from being used by others. But giving up your weapon in battle to weaken the enemy seems like a stretch.
I'll totally buy that Odin had a spell on his gear to protect it from being used by others. But giving up your weapon in battle to weaken the enemy seems like a stretch.
Letting her use it to take out nameless fighters, Hendricks, McCoy, Cristos, Listens, River, Butters, and disarm Sanya all so Lara could pop her in the back of the head seems like overkill. Especially when the same command given at the moment Marcone shot her in the face, or Sanya was cutting her up, would have afforded the same opportunity without waiting for everyone else to fall in battle.Perhaps, but that is what was needed ultimately to get the job done.
Does it have to be? Odin is smacked, hard seemingly out, but he isn't. Then as the Titan is aboutMolly said he was. She isn't just some know-nothing apprentice anymore. She is a Queen of Faerie. With that kind of power also comes knowledge. She's also Fae, so she cannot lie. So she truly believes Vadderung got laid out, and she has the knowledge that her position grants to make an accurate assessment of that.
to do something with it, his says a word and it explodes in her face and does so much damage that Lara and her ladies just happen to be there to kick it from her head from behind. That screams set up.
Was he? Amazing isn't it, that he managed to mutter the exact right word, at the exact right time. That is why I mentioned "rope a dope," if you are a boxing fan, and even if you aren't most people have heard of the strategy of the late great Mohamed Ali in the latter years of his boxing career. He'd lean back on the ropes for several rounds, yes, take a lot of punishment, it would even look like he was losing, but then when the time was right, he'd deliver the knock out punch. I'm thinking that Odin played rope a dope with Ethniu, and when she thought she had the upper hand, he delivered the knock out punch.As I said above, we already have a weighty statement that he was laid out. I understand your theory, I do. It's a possible scenario. But it isn't a probable one, at least not based on what I have seen so far. What hint is there that Odin tricked her? Is there some quote from Odin saying "Sometimes it's better to play possum so your enemy becomes vulnerable" or something to that effect? Some evidence that Odin intended to lose his spear, that he had planned it with Mab and so on? I don't believe there is.
Alright I agree with you, however I do believe Odin has backup plans for backup plans incase he failed, and it was for her to take his weapon as her own, and for him to use it against her.Ethniu specifically, or whoever managed to disarm him and steal his weapon? It's an important difference I think.
Battle Ground was not the Battle Royal.Maybe not THE Battle Royal. But surely a Battle Royal? Unless I misunderstand the term.
It's possible, but, I don't think he wanted that. Having a failsafe in case plan A fails is a bit different than 'lose my spear' being his plan.I think if there is one thing we have learned is there is no coincidence when it comes to the Knights (both of the Cross and of the Blackened Denarius). The big powers are constantly moving their pieces around. I don't think Angels really "predict" things in the way we would understand it. They have Intellectus. Divine Knowledge. All of reality is available to them - past, future, present (and alternate). It's more a matter of working out which version of events they are experiencing/will occur where they are. Beings that are beyond time and outside of it don't experience linear time like we do. The angels seem to be in that category. I suspect the Denarian Fallen are limited though. Either you still need to be connected to Heaven to have Intellectus OR your need to not limited by a physical object (like a Coin or Swords). I find the Lucifer/Uriel team up interesting. It's fairly plausible, even. Vadderung can create Gates/Ways that are allow instantaneous travel between points in space-time. He could summon an army very easily, and because he is a forward thinker, he always has a battalion ready to go. It's not unusual even for countries now, so why would the God of War be unprepared.
That said, it IS intriguing that Chicago has 2 Swords and a Denarian on standby when a Titan comes knocking, and the third Sword coming in on time - almost as if the Angels (Fallen or not) did have sufficient foresight to predict a threat of this magnitude, and prepared for it. Almost makes you wonder if Lucy cheated in SF just to allow Uriel to upgrade his pawn to a Knight for this fight, though that may be attributing too much collusion.
Granted, Odin did have quite a bunch of Einherjar and 2 Valkyries ready to roll in Chicago too, so he can't have been completely unprepared.
I'll totally buy that Odin had a spell on his gear to protect it from being used by others. But giving up your weapon in battle to weaken the enemy seems like a stretch.Exactly right.
Letting her use it to take out nameless fighters, Hendricks, McCoy, Cristos, Listens, River, Butters, and disarm Sanya all so Lara could pop her in the back of the head seems like overkill. Especially when the same command given at the moment Marcone shot her in the face, or Sanya was cutting her up, would have afforded the same opportunity without waiting for everyone else to fall in battle.
I mean, sure, maybe he had the Doctor Strange foresight to see the one way it could play out as a win. But that just seems like a stretch.
Why? They needed to get inside her defenses, that seems a perfect way. Ever hear of the Trojan Horse?
Perhaps, but that is what was needed ultimately to get the job done.
Was the defeats/injuries/deaths of champions like Ebenezar, the Archive, River Shoulders etc really have been require to defeat Ethniu, if Odin could just do it with his spear? Odin took up his battle form (which we hadn't seen before, even in Changes) to fight Ethniu. He very much appeared to give it his best shot and it didn't work. It's also awful strategy to lose your champions if you don't require it. I don't see how they aided in Ethniu getting her Eye taken out either. So I don't really see how their various defeats were required for the play Odin used.
Would anything convince you otherwise?Yes, a better plan, which you haven't demonstrated so far.
But their collective sacrifices did weaken Ethniu and removed the eye from her, then Harry with Marcone's help was able to whisk her away to prison.. What to your mind would have worked better?Yes, a better plan, which you haven't demonstrated so far.How about beating Ethniu when she stood against three immortals? How much did those mortal punks really tire her out in comparison?
How about beating Ethniu when she stood against three immortals? How much did those mortal punks really tire her out in comparison?
Why? They needed to get inside her defenses, that seems a perfect way. Ever hear of the Trojan Horse?A better alternative would have been for Odin to trigger the spell as soon as she took it. Then she would have been weakened just as more big guns arrived and could have overwhelmed her.
Perhaps, but that is what was needed ultimately to get the job done.
But their collective sacrifices did weaken Ethniu and removed the eye from her, then Harry with Marcone's help was able to whisk her away to prison.. What to your mind would have worked better?Weaken her, sure. But Gungnir alone damaged her to the point the that removed the Eye.
Yes, a better plan, which you haven't demonstrated so far.
Can you show evidence to the contrary? You also haven't refuted Molly claiming Vadderung got laid out nor shown any evidence of the rope-a-dope tactic. Can you quote something? Because it's hard to see where you're coming from otherwise.
Titan's voice. These mortal beasts. These worms. I will grind that man's teeth to dust beneath my heel."
It was seeing that helpless fury that had taken her, that frustration and rage that did it, I think. I'd felt that way before. And I could handle it way better than she could. I had seen the Titan's weakness: She had the vices of her vitures.
In a way it wasn't her fault. Ethniu was an elemental being, a primal force of the universe. Such beings had been meant to shape the worlds from raw matter, not to cope with their wills being frustrated. Her own personal power meant that she could demand and get her way in nearly every circumstance.
But when she found a circumstance that wasn't like the others, she was confounded. She had been used to coping with the opposition, had grown rigid in her habit of victory. She never needed reflexes to deal with an agile opponent, with adversity, with unpredictability. She reacted to them the way a child would, confronting such obstacles for the first time.
She spent precious seconds throwing a tantrum.
And hope rekindled and flickered to life.
And twenty yards away, the swirl of battle stirred, and I saw One-Eye's shadowy form on the ground where he had fallen.He lifted his head.
He opened his eye.
It gleamed like a smoldering coal in the shadow.
And Odin, Father of the Aesir spoke, his voice a deep resonance that shook
the air with gentle power. "Gungnir."
I knew the translation of the weapon's name, a bit of useless trivia that had stuck in my head.
Swayer:
A rune burst into scarlet light upon the Spear's blade.
And Like a snake, the weapon of the gods the Titan had stolen turned in her hand, whipping about with lightning speed. As it did, runes burst into light all along the length of the blade and haft alike, suddenly blazing with energy.
And the weapon plunged with vicious, absolute precision into the Eye of Balor.
Page 297 Battle Ground, Harry spots Ethniu's weakness and what goes on for the next few pages are what I am talking about.. But this is what Harry sees;I mean, they did their huddle right after Ethniu appeared and broke their clubhouse. But they didn't have a game plan for her, because they didn't know that she was even coming. You can't plan for a game you don't know is about to happen. It's like if I went to you and said "you're playing for the New York Jets in 5 minutes, and you're playing the KC Chiefs" and you didn't even know you were playing, let alone on the team. There wouldn't be a game plan because you'd just have to improvise, maybe have a quick planning session 2 minutes before the game. That's basically what happened in Peace Talks/Battle Ground.
Now did team Harry huddle on their own five yard line to plan their attack? If you wanted that as your proof, then there is none. At the same time, what happens over the next twenty pages or so screams that it is part of an attack plan, unpredictable attacks that in of themselves didn't do a whole lot of damage to her, but at the same time they frustrated and pissed her off. Frustrated and pissed off people make mistakes, that is what Team Harry was counting on, they had hope, because they had a plan once they spotted her weakness. Yes, they took a whole lot of damage in the process, seemingly on the ropes, then on page 321-322.. Odin had her and his Spear right where he wanted them and he delivered the knock out blow.. A big deal is made of the damage that Ethniu could do with his Spear, but could she really do that much? As a spear, yeah, but she wasn't mistress of it, no, the Spear knew exactly who to answer to, and it wasn't her. Consider the calm manner, the deep voice when he gave his command, Odin was not someone down for the count going for one last desperate move.
What happens next could only have happened if the Spear was in position where it could do the most damage. Ethniu had stolen it for her very own, yes, it is the Trojan Horse, because it never occurred to her that it could blow up in her face, but she had been tricked and it was right where it could do the most damage.. One on one, Odin couldn't have gotten that close to do that damage...
Odin speaks to Swayer and...
And it was all down hill for Ethniu after that... That kind of thing takes planning, it doesn't happen by accident in my opinion.
I mean, they did their huddle right after Ethniu appeared and broke their clubhouse. But they didn't have a game plan for her, because they didn't know that she was even coming. You can't plan for a game you don't know is about to happen. It's like if I went to you and said "you're playing for the New York Jets in 5 minutes, and you're playing the KC Chiefs" and you didn't even know you were playing, let alone on the team. There wouldn't be a game plan because you'd just have to improvise, maybe have a quick planning session 2 minutes before the game. That's basically what happened in Peace Talks/Battle Ground.
You keep saying Odin had her "right where he wanted her" but you haven't shown evidence that he did want her there or that he planned for her to be there. As others have pointed out, does it make sense for her to use it on the defenders of Chicago and kill many of them just to wait for some other moment? He could have done it right as she picked it up and ended the fight almost immediately. But he was laid out. Hence his single eye being closed, laying down on the ground, smoke coming off him...like a car after a really bad head-on crash. It's also the language Jim uses, the description is designed to signal a certain message to the reader. In this case, that Odin had been smashed. If Odin was playing possum, why not pick up his own spear as she reached down and stab her? He had multiple better opportunities.She couldn't because she didn't have power over it... Also Odin could have thrown the spear at any time since it would always find it's target.. But Ethniu was no ordinary target, she is in effect another god.. However
gungnir: Gungnir: Odin's Spear and an Iconic Weapon
Norse
Gungnir: Odin’s Spear and an Iconic Weapon
Odin is often pictured with his spear, but do you know how important this weapon really was? Keep reading to find out more about Gungnir, the magical weapon Odin carried into battle.
By
Mike Greenberg, PhD
Published on February 3, 2021
9
SHARES
Share
Tweet
It is not uncommon in Norse mythology to have very few sources that describe any person or place. That’s why it might be surprising that we have relatively ample information about an item.
The items carried by the gods, however, were obviously very important in the Norse world. They amplified the gods’ powers, symbolized their roles, and identified them in art.
Some of the most important items were the gods’ weapons, the ultimate symbols of their powers. While Odin’s weapon may have looked like an ordinary spear, it was actually a powerful item that symbolized both his magical powers and his role as a warrior god.
Gungnir: Odin’s Spear
Among the most important and iconic items in Norse mythology were the weapons of the gods. These magical items had names and origin stories that are sometimes more well-known than those of many of the gods themselves.
One of the most prominent of these important weapons was Gungnir, Odin’s spear.
While, like many aspects of Norse mythology, there are relatively few written records concerning Gungnir, there is a wealth of archaeological evidence. Many images of Odin show him holding his spear and, in some cases, it is used to identify the chief god in otherwise ambiguous images.
READ NEXT:
Where was Midgard?
It was named “The Swaying One” for the way it moved in battle. While ordinary spears flew in a relatively straight line, Gungnir moved and twisted.
This was because it always found its target. No matter how it was thrown, Gungnir would turn itself so that it hit whatever, or whomever, Odin aimed for.
How could Gungnir not have been effective if he triggered it earlier? It would have done the same damage, so Ethniu would have been vulnerable only earlier. And Eb, Hendricks, Cristos, the Archive all would have been ready to pounce. Also, Vadderung was close enough to do damage he just didn't use physical combat. All the gods fought with Power/Magic - a real god-level fight.
Occam's razor - the simplest answer is the right one. In this case it's that Odin was too injured to fight back and stop Ethniu taking his spear, and when he came to he pulled out his last trick. Why are you so sure that Odin couldn't go down?Using the simplest answer, doesn't work because the simplest answer would have been for him to throw the Spear as soon as he saw her before she had time to react to him being there.
Also, are you saying Molly was lying or that she was wrong when she says Vadderung/Odin/Kringle got laid out?
Which mostly was fine because after that only Odin re-entered the fight, and only to use his trump card. Think of it like a villain with a hidden bomb vest. He seems to be defeated then pulls the pin, trying to take the enemy out as well. Odin just did it smarter and more precisely and efficiently. He was beaten but he still had his ace in the hole. It only requires the planning of having a weapon that can turn on it's wielder, Vadderung didn't need to know Ethniu specifically would take it to know it would be useful to have a weapon that turned on a thief should he be disarmed. It isn't accident that the weapon turned on her. Vadderung did intend it to happen AFTER he woke up and realised it had been stolen. Unless you're saying he knew it would be stolen before the fight (that he would have also had to know was about to happen)...which there isn't evidence of. Planning for a possible outcome doesn't require specific knowledge. That's why seatbelts and airbags are in cars. We know that cars get in crashes. We don't know when or how but we still put airbags and seatbelts in them, to prepare for that outcome.
They didn't know she was coming? Check out the quote, they had been fighting her for some time. Also while you might argue it was a plan made on the fly, they had figured out a strategy. As Harry said, once they figured out that the unconventional attacks frustrated her, light bulb time, this was her weakness, they now had hope.. It isn't enough to just have hope, now you have to figure out how to make it reality. You need a plan..Are you seriously saying they knew prior to her entrance in Peace Talks they knew Ethniu was coming? How do you get that?
She couldn't because she didn't have power over it... Also Odin could have thrown the spear at any time since it would always find it's target.. But Ethniu was no ordinary target, she is in effect another god.. HoweverShe literally uses it on McCoy, Cristos, the Chicago fighters. How did she not have power over it? I doubt she knew about Odin's failsafe. But she still wielded it. I think you're conflating the rules of the myth there and the series. In the myths when Gungnir is thrown it always finds it's mark. We never saw Gungnir thrown like that in the series, and we don't know whether it would have worked. I doubt it though, because if it were that simple Odin could have thrown it at her much earlier and hit her eye before she even got started. I'd say he didn't because she could have blocked it. Throwing your weapon away is normally a pretty poor idea especially if the target might stop it.
Which is exactly what happened, Odin gave the word and the Spear did it's job..I understand the myth of Gungnir, I do. I have read extensively on the Norse myths over the last few decades. But this isn't the myths, it's the Dresden Files. Which while inspired by the myths has obvious differences. Gungnir never flew from Odin's hand. The closest thing would be the lightning.
Which brings up the question, why didn't he use it earlier? Like the minute he stepped out of his office to join the fight, something Vikings apparently did.. Thank you for making my point, if you have an AK-47 you shoot from a distance to get your target rather than judo.. Why didn't you do it? Odin is no amateur warrior.Because, as above, likely Ethniu could have stopped it. Rendering him less powerful. If he was so sure of his trick, why not just throw it at her at first opportunity and if she blocks then steals it, trigger the failsafe? Because Ethniu would suspect a trap and she could block it. Exactly, Odin has a gun but he never fired it at her. Why? Because she was far too strong. Also, she had the WAY bigger gun. I wouldn't have a shoot-out with anyone wielding the Eye of Balor. If that thing can destroy gods and immortals, it might even have destroyed his spear. Far too great a risk. In point of fact, Odin waited to get in combat with her and have a magic duel. Basically, judo.
Using the simplest answer, doesn't work because the simplest answer would have been for him to throw the Spear as soon as he saw her before she had time to react to him being there.As above, the risk to himself and the spear was too great - and it's not clear the spear would even work that way. We haven't see what happens when it's thrown.
That doesn't have to be a lie..So you're saying Molly was...wrong. As in, the Queen of Faerie? With power comes knowledge. Molly now has a whole lot of power and knowledge. Yet somehow Molly wouldn't have been aware of this "rope-a-dope" strategy that was supposedly concocted before the battle, and wouldn't have been aware of Odin state of wellbeing during the battle (or after). Also, why would Jim write that sentence? To mislead us? Doylist reason is that he was telling the audience that Vadderung had a bruised ego because he got whupped.
Which all underscores my argument. Also with due respect, you haven't supplied any quotes to underscore your argument or disprove mine.. It could be we are reading the same thing but just interpret it differently.I supplied the quotes with Molly directly saying that Vadderung got laid out. With all due respect, the onus of proof is on you because you are making a claim contrary to the book. The book says he got laid out. You're saying it was a deception in order for Vadderung to get a critical shot on her. But the book doesn't say this, even if you believe it implies it. It says that he got beaten, it shows him waking up after being beaten and activating Gungnir's failsafe. It then restates he got beaten in a short-story at the end of the book. So, what quotes would you like?
I supplied the quotes with Molly directly saying that Vadderung got laid out. With all due respect, the onus of proof is on you because you are making a claim contrary to the book. The book says he got laid ou
Are you seriously saying they knew prior to her entrance in Peace Talks they knew Ethniu was coming? How do you get that?I never did, I never said that prior to Peace Talks they knew that she was coming, they didn't. What I am saying is in the middle of the battle they discovered her weakness.. She got frustrated as Harry said by unconventional attacks, once he says that, reading the next twenty pages or so, the attacks appear more coordinated than random, that takes planning, even if on the fly..
She literally uses it on McCoy, Cristos, the Chicago fighters. How did she not have power over it? I doubt she knew about Odin's failsafe. But she still wielded it.But not to the effect that Odin did.. All he had to do with say the word, and "it turned on her like a snake.."
As above, the risk to himself and the spear was too great - and it's not clear the spear would even work that way. We haven't see what happens when it's thrown.Actually that is exactly how it works, unless the sources on the subject I checked out were wrong. That is why all Odin had to do was say the word and the spear turned and struck exactly where he wanted it to go, directly into the Eye.
Also, why would Jim write that sentence? To mislead us? Doylist reason is that he was telling the audience that Vadderung had a bruised ego because he got whupped.
It says that he got beaten, it shows him waking up after being beaten and activating Gungnir's failsafe. It then restates he got beaten in a short-story at the end of the book. So, what quotes would you like?
Which can mean anything at the same time Sanya keeps talking about "the plan," we need a better plan because for the most part they got their ass kicked. However they won in the end because of the unconventional attacks.. Also just common sense says, if you have hope because you see a weakness, that you don't follow up with a plan to exploit that weakness.. Whether it was off page or not.What can mean anything? Molly says, word for word, that Vadderung got laid out. How is that ambiguous? Sanya is referring to the plan made after Ethniu's appearance. I agree, they won because their plan had the right elements - but more importantly the execution of it was done well enough to win the day. As Mike Tyson says, everyone has a plan until they get punched in the face. Or to use the old quote "No plan survives first contact with the enemy". Obviously there is some wiggle room but you get the idea.
I never did, I never said that prior to Peace Talks they knew that she was coming, they didn't. What I am saying is in the middle of the battle they discovered her weakness.. She got frustrated as Harry said by unconventional attacks, once he says that, reading the next twenty pages or so, the attacks appear more coordinated than random, that takes planning, even if on the fly..My apologies then, it appeared you were saying that to me. They knew her weakness early on - that Titanic Bronze can be pierced by holy and unholy power, and that they need to wear down her limits, and that she is emotional and brash. Both Mab and Marcone immediately acknowledge that had Ethniu given no warning, had attacked a less well defended city (one without Mab for instance), she would have achieved her goals. But she attacked Chicago because Mab was there, and she had to prove herself superior. She wanted the theatre of it all. As I said earlier, I am not saying there was not a plan at all, just that they didn't plan for Ethniu coming to Chicago because they had no knowledge of it.
But not to the effect that Odin did.. All he had to do with say the word, and "it turned on her like a snake.."That is assuming Ethniu even knew about that ability. And how would she employ it? Give Odin his staff back? That trick only works because no one knows about it and only Odin knows how to activate it.
Actually that is exactly how it works, unless the sources on the subject I checked out were wrong. That is why all Odin had to do was say the word and the spear turned and struck exactly where he wanted it to go, directly into the Eye.I'm not saying your sources were wrong. But they are sources that inspire the character, they are not evidence of the character. Jim picks and chooses what bit he likes out of fiction and mythology, and often just invents his own stuff. It is not enough to rely on what the myths say, or what analyses of them say. They are a guide not a rule. As I said, we don't have proof that the spear when thrown never misses it's target, we don't have proof it is unstoppable, because we never saw the spear thrown in Battle Ground or in any other book. The closest thing to that would be firing lightning from it. Also, in no myth does Odin speak a work and the spear targets his enemies. In the actual myths we have, all that happens is he throws it and it doesn't miss. Which for a Viking was incredible. A spear that didn't deviate because of bad throws or wind or being poorly made. That alone made it far more deadly than a regular spear. In more modern interpretations and imaginations the spear has been granted far more power.
When Odin called to the Spear to do it's thing, he didn't sound whupped or very much like he had a bruised ego.. Also he won, the Spear did it's job and Lara was able to kick it out of her head.That's your interpretation. We didn't "hear" Odin. All it says is that he says it in a deep voice. You interpret that as commanding, but I interpret that as simply the power of the magic. We will have to agree to disagree there.
In "Christmas Eve"? Kringle gives Harry a nice gift, but he doesn't say anything about being beaten... Neither does Molly, Harry feels guilty and bad because so many got hurt and died and Murphy died, but he always does when that happens.. Harry is depressed because of the loss of innocent lives.. Molly tells him he did what he could, it wasn't his fault, then gives him the card showing that Winter has paid the bill for the injuries and funerals of those who were harmed. Which is a good thing that Harry insisted upon.Why would he say that? At what point in the short story would it have been relevant for Kingle to say "Yeah, I got beaten" particularly as he was also furious about it. Same for Molly, at what point would it have been relevant to bring it up? Also, as Christmas Eve came out before Battle Ground was released, Jim wasn't going to spoil anything.