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The Dresden Files => DF Spoilers => DF Reference Collection => Topic started by: Elegast on April 28, 2012, 02:07:09 PM
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There is a WOJ saying that some of you solved the Hexenwulf problem. I tried to find it with the search , but got nothing. Could someone enlighten me?
Curator edit
Reply #1 says what the general consensus spuspect is
Reply #5 (http://www.jimbutcheronline.com/bb/index.php/topic,32068.msg1394239.html#msg1394239) quotes a WoJ saying this
Reply #50 (http://www.jimbutcheronline.com/bb/index.php/topic,32068.msg1395892.html#msg1395892) links the belts from Love Hurts (and more reasoning below that at #59)
Reply #57 (http://www.jimbutcheronline.com/bb/index.php/topic,32068.msg1396565.html#msg1396565) summarizes any other likely suspects
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I *think* the theory is that the belts came from the Erlking, largely because the Erlking's court is adjacent to the FBI building in the NeverNever and the belts can be categorized as granting powers associated with the Wild Hunt.
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there may be a level deeper as well: Marcone has a conection with Odin of some kind (theoreis differ) and Odin is one of Erlking's rivals for control of the wild hunt. In Changes, EK mentions interfering with those who interfere with his hunts.
I think marcone is a Gaet, one of the mortal decendants of Odin from Gram legends. Of course, I believe that makes Odin one of Mab's exes, but hey- Im a Duck.
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Another thing in favour of it being Erl who made the belts, WoJ has it we're going to find out more about who made the belts in Cold Days.
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Someone on the BC most likely made a deal with the Erlking to make the belts. Then that black wizard gave it to the fbi agents.Makes more sense.....
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I don't remember where it came from, but I do remember seeing it, shortly after Changes, so that does tie in with the theory that the Erlking's court might be involved.
(Found it, it was the Bitten by Books web based Q&A)
ANSWERS FROM - JIM BUTCHER says:
April 14, 2010 at 1:01 pm
“1.) Are we going to find out for certain (not speculation) who hired the hitman in Changes?”
Absolutely.
“2.) Are we going to find out where the Hexenwolf belts came from in Fool Moon?”
Several folks have already worked it out, actually. The pieces are there if you want to put them together, though eventually I’ll state it outright.
“3.) When will Harry finally get the whole truth about his past? (As in his mom, grandfather — who they REALLY are/were?)”
I doubt he’ll get much more truth than any of us do. As far as who people REALLY were… well. What Harry knows so far is all accurate. I’m really not sure of the direction of this question.
What? Professional assassin for the White Council and powerful wizardess who consorted with the White Court aren’t interesting enough?
http://www.bittenbybooks.com/22804/jim-butcher-qa-and-contest-live-here/#comments
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someone figured it out prior to changes, but i cannot rember the details right now. I think there may have been a woj that they were correct, one of his ' i love it when folks put things together' comments.
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there is still no hint whatsoever about which theory is correct though. BC, Erl, whoever, nothing. there were a few theories at the time.
personally i think the Erl theory is the weakest, it is too easy.
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there is still no hint whatsoever about which theory is correct though. BC, Erl, whoever, nothing. there were a few theories at the time.
personally i think the Erl theory is the weakest, it is too easy.
Or maybe we're just putting in too much thought and its a theory that no casual reader would suspect.
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The question was asked where the WOJ comes from, Jim might have said the same elsewhere prior to the release of Changes, but I don't know about that. I can't say for certainty where the belts come from.
However, it wouldn't be unreasonable this is the WOJ that Elegast might have been referencing.
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sadly , we are misisng much of 2008-2010 as the forum archives go.
leaving us with the memory ( which has been very wrong before) of old peeps like me.
I remember the discussion, vaguely. I do rmeber a lot of folks considering that EK did the belts as a given, for a while. I dotn remeber why.
:'(
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You have EK, possible only because of location(kind of weak for sound reasoning).
Lea, I mean come on, she makes hounds out of people on a regular bases AND makes them enjoy it.
I Personally think no theory dismisses BC but infact emphasizes their involvement.
My Personal theory: WK.
Mainly because He had his little fingers EVERYWHERE(lara inherited his influence and was able to drop a Navy Chopper in another country), He was calling up demons such as HWWB. He had to get that knowledge from somewhere, and we KNOW he has had contact with other wizards and such before we ever saw him.
Since BR, HWWB has not been located, though we know he's free.
Further Evidence:
Lara has information on top-level wizards at her finger-tips. Where does she get this information while the WC is at war with vamps?
Not to mention the information she had was NEW, such as Carlos' position.
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You have EK, possible only because of location(kind of weak for sound reasoning).
Lea, I mean come on, she makes hounds out of people on a regular bases AND makes them enjoy it.
I Personally think no theory dismisses BC but infact emphasizes their involvement.
My Personal theory: WK.
Mainly because He had his little fingers EVERYWHERE(lara inherited his influence and was able to drop a Navy Chopper in another country), He was calling up demons such as HWWB. He had to get that knowledge from somewhere, and we KNOW he has had contact with other wizards and such before we ever saw him.
Since BR, HWWB has not been located, though we know he's free.
Further Evidence:
Lara has information on top-level wizards at her finger-tips. Where does she get this information while the WC is at war with vamps?
Not to mention the information she had was NEW, such as Carlos' position.
WK as in:
white King? Winter Knight? Winter King? Santa clause?
(most folks just call the white king lord raith)
;D
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WK as in:
white King? Winter Knight? Winter King? Santa clause?
(most folks just call the white king lord raith)
;D
or Papa Raith i think is the most used :P
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I just want to see Santa Clause , with a sledfull or werewolf belts.
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The problem is that Jim says:
The pieces are there if you want to put them together,
and the theories we have (Erl, Raith, Lea) are just guess, not logical proofs.
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I just want to see Santa Clause , with a sledfull or werewolf belts.
Santa leads the Circle. Everyone in the modern world is unutterably Naughty, and it's time for everyone to get their eternal share of coal. Hot, fiery coal.
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lol.
Yes, all my theories are not SOLID, as There is no definite way to determine who gave the belts to the FBI.
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sadly , we are misisng much of 2008-2010 as the forum archives go.
leaving us with the memory ( which has been very wrong before) of old peeps like me.
I remember the discussion, vaguely. I do rmeber a lot of folks considering that EK did the belts as a given, for a while. I dotn remeber why.
:'(
While it doesn't have everything lost, it wouldn't shock me if some gems might be found here:
http://forums.darklordpotter.net/showthread.php?t=15724
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For me the Erkling is the favorite due to FBI building + these quotes:
The talisman provides an anchor for a spirit of bestial rage. Nasty thing from the bad side of the Nevernever.
It was vibrating beneath my fingers, warm to the touch, alive in its own fashion, and full of the power and strength that had been channeled into it. I closed my eyes and let that dark, wild power spill into me, mingle with all the fear and pain and weariness inside of me. It was easy. It was easier than any magic I'd ever done, leaping into me with a sort of hungry eagerness, seeping into me, making pain and fatigue and fear vanish and replacing it with nothing but strength, ferocity.
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bestial rage has nothing to do with hunting predators though. a true predator isn't a rage machine. look at a pack of wolves bringing down an opponent. they are methodical. look at Erl when he comes to dresden at the end of DB calm and collected. bestial rage is just a mindless attacker not a predator.
bad side of the NN not fae lands. Erl is a Wyldefae not a monster. he has honor and rules.
those 2 comments make me think of Ick, the super Ghouls, monsters.
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bestial rage has nothing to do with hunting predators though. a true predator isn't a rage machine. look at a pack of wolves bringing down an opponent. they are methodical. look at Erl when he comes to dresden at the end of DB calm and collected. bestial rage is just a mindless attacker not a predator.
bad side of the NN not fae lands. Erl is a Wyldefae not a monster. he has honor and rules.
those 2 comments make me think of Ick, the super Ghouls, monsters.
A while back, I remember some suggesting that Rafferut might be Black Council. Just because the Erlking might not be personally involved, doesn't mean we can rule out that the belts came from his court.
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bestial rage has nothing to do with hunting predators though. a true predator isn't a rage machine. look at a pack of wolves bringing down an opponent. they are methodical. look at Erl when he comes to dresden at the end of DB calm and collected. bestial rage is just a mindless attacker not a predator.
bad side of the NN not fae lands. Erl is a Wyldefae not a monster. he has honor and rules.
those 2 comments make me think of Ick, the super Ghouls, monsters.
Wild Hunt."
"The what?" Thomas said.
"It's a gathering of some of the more predatory beings of Faerie," I said. "They appear in the autumn and winter usually, usually along with storms and rough weather. A gathering of black hounds the size of horses with glowing red eyes, led by a hunter with the horns of a stag on a black horse."
"The spirits of those who hunt," Mab said. "The energy of the hunt. Of excitement, hunger, bloodlust. Betimes, the Erlking will call those spirits into the form of the great black hounds, and ride the winds and forests as the Wild Hunt.
Fairie not NN, you're right. Yet the black hounds...
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For me the Erkling is the favorite due to FBI building + these quotes:
About the Erlking's court. We don't know since when and for how long the court lay on the Nevernever side of the local FBI headquarters. It seems quite apparent that the Sidhe can move their area of influence in relation to reality. The Erlking is drawn to hunts. I would assume he frequently changes the location to follow the hunts. During FM for all we know the Erlking may not have had yet taken residence on the other side of the FBI headquarters.
It may even be the other way around. That Denton and Co didn't get their belts because the Erlking was on the other side but that because Denton and Co had those belts the Erlking became interested in the place and decided to set up shop there.
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About the Erlking's court. We don't know since when and for how long the court lay on the Nevernever side of the local FBI headquarters. It seems quite apparent that the Sidhe can move their area of influence in relation to reality. The Erlking is drawn to hunts. I would assume he frequently changes the location to follow the hunts. During FM for all we know the Erlking may not have had yet taken residence on the other side of the FBI headquarters.
I don't think so. I think you're making a mistaken assumption: that the FBI building is the only place leading to the Erkling Court. I believe that all places linked to the Hunt lead to his Court, or close to it.
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We've seen that singular locations can have multiple outputs in the real world from the NN, and the same can be said of reality to the NN.
Reality to NN:
I can't remember exactly which book but Cowl could not follow Harry into the NN because he did not THINK like Harry (I believe it's spelled out very close to that). Even though he'd open it up in the exact same location.
NN to Reality:
In Changes when leaving the EK's domain, Harry and Susan went to the Bass Pro Shop.
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I'm of the suspicion that the "different people opening at the same spot get different results" comment was just Harry stating something incorrect, like his statement that Ebenezar is the youngest and weakest of the senior council.
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The description sounds like the Erlking a bit, but to me it sounds EXACTLY like the wild hunt. In one of the books, DB IIRC, Dresden offhandedly mentions he's ONE of the beings who can call the hunt. Wonder who else can?
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Lea sounds like she might be able to, Odin DEFINETLY could in old myths, as well as Freya.
The hunt has also been more recently linked to Dartmoor.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dartmoor (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dartmoor)
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The description sounds like the Erlking a bit, but to me it sounds EXACTLY like the wild hunt. In one of the books, DB IIRC, Dresden offhandedly mentions he's ONE of the beings who can call the hunt. Wonder who else can?
Actually, that's from a WoJ.
Actually, in the Dresden universe, the Wild Hunt can be led by a number of beings--INCLUDING Cern, but not exclusive to him. The Erlking (who isn't Cern) is a being of Faerie who is in Mab's weight division, if not her equal. I believe he is identified as the ruler of the goblins--which should not necessarily be equated with Tolkeinesque/Gygaxesque goblins.
Jim
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I thought it was the goblin Lord Orduluka, or Rafforut, in the Erlking's court, not the Erlking himself.
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Why does the source of the Hexenwulf belts have to be a heavy weight?
When asked about the belts, Bob said that a sorcerer (someone who isn't even a wizard) could make them. While wearing a belt (and admittedly not thinking that clearly) Harry didn't think that he would have any problem making up a batch of them.
Later in that book, Harry is thinking "Someone taught Victor and someone made those belts - are they connected", not "someone taught Victor and something incredibly powerful made those belts - are they connected".
Now the sorcerer (or wizard) making the belts might have make a deal with something powerful for the power to make the belts (Bob hinted that the power came from Down Below, as in the Fallen or some other demon) but once he had that power he could hand them out like candy.
Why don't I think it was the Erlking who was behind the belts? Because of the character taken on by those who wore them. The FBI agents didn't become predators, they became evil predators, acting more wicked than the Erlking seems to be.
Richard
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Seems to me like Peabody is a good candidate.
He wrote the book on how to summon the Erlking, which upon being summoned immediately tried to begin the wild hunt. Which kinds of indicates that it was a personal area for extensive research for him.
He is a wizard fairly capable. He was fairly high up in the White Council.
He has used black magic, AND He has black magic to control minds.
He (presumably) is in league with the Black Council/Circle. Though thinking on it, you would think he would of had a copy of his book lying around to help out Cowl and Kumari which suggests a certain individuals acting for the same greater goals but without contact esk feel to the Black Council. Sorry rambling there.
Just my two cents.
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I'm not sure if everyone who showed up was on the Black Council. Rather, most of them seemed to be Kemmlerites. Cowl seemed to be a member of the Black Council who was irritated by the actions of Kemmler's apprentices - upset that they were going to upset his plans.
And he was gathering the books so that the others couldn't use them.
So why get Bob?
a) Bob is a very valuable resource.
b) it explains how he knew what he knew. Without Bob being there, people might have wondered "how did Cowl know all that? Who told him?" but with Bob around, why would anyone look any further than Bob?
Of course, all of this is conjecture.
Richard
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I suspect the Black council had agents in each of the major powers, and that cowl was their agent in kemmler's legion of doomy doom doom.
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Why don't I think it was the Erlking who was behind the belts? Because of the character taken on by those who wore them. The FBI agents didn't become predators, they became evil predators, acting more wicked than the Erlking seems to be.
Yes. But some under his command seem pretty evil: in Changes some goblins want to keep the prisoners in torture chambers for years.
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Allow me to rephrase that:
The Erlking respects predators.
Why would he dishonor the wolf by merging a human conscious (and an evil one at that) to a wolf's body?
That just doesn't seem in character for him.
Richard
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I suspect the Black council had agents in each of the major powers, and that cowl was their agent in kemmler's legion of doomy doom doom.
Cowl made it fairly clear he never had anything to do with Kemmler.
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Cowl made it fairly clear he never had anything to do with Kemmler.
and you believe him? And if he was the black council's mole all along, wouldnt that answer also apply?
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Cowl made it fairly clear he never had anything to do with Kemmler.
DB chapter 34 page 323(pb)
"we smile at one another and play nicely all in the name of Kemmler's greater glory, of course. ......."
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DB chapter 34 page 323(pb)
"we smile at one another and play nicely all in the name of Kemmler's greater glory, of course. ......."
Chapter 8, p98.
"Get your own book, Kemmlerite."
"I have nothing but disdain for the madman Kemmler."
"Is that what you're doing, destroying copies of the book?"
"Time has taken most of them. We have accounted for the rest." (K)
"Is it not enough that Kemmler's disciples could use this knowledge for great evil?"
"Grevane and the Corpsetaker are madmen. They must be stopped." (K)
"Do you know why Cowl has made a study of necromancy? [...] Necromancy can be turned upon it's nature[.] Life can be served by that dark power, if one's will and purpose are strong."
"Grevane and the Corpsetaker are determined. I intend to beat them to the prize and use it to destroy them. It's the only way to be sure one of those madmen does not become something more terrible than the Earth has ever seen."
Cowl does imply he's met Grevane and Corpsetaker before. But I think it's clear he was never a mole in any meaningful sense of the word, and very unlikely he ever worked with Kemmler, even as a spy.
We saw that Grevane immediately leapt to the conclusion that Dresden too was a Kemmlerite working towards the same purpose as the others just on the basis of Dresden's aura or magic being tainted. It seems fairly clear that Cowl never worked with Kemmler, or was ever any kind of mole - the actual Kemmlerites just assumed he was because he was going for the Darkhallow, so they assumed he was acting in Kemmler's name. In actuality, Cowl intended on stopping them himself - not because he actually wanted the power for himself, but because he was convinced the Darkhallow was going to happen, and it had better be him there rather than one of the crazy Kemmlerites.
That's important because even though Cowl is a student of necromancy, it's clear his aims and purposes are very, very different than Kemmler's. On the other hand, I think it's important to note Cowl never actually used necromancy once, and his apprentice (?) Kumori only used it to revive the dying guy.
Indeed, in DB at least, I'm almost inclined to believe that Cowl was working at cross-purposes to the BC. The BC (we believe, anyway) has taken every opportunity to throw the world into chaos. Cowl not only seemed intent on stopping (world-wide, not Chicago-wide) chaos and destruction in DB, he alerted Dresden to the corruption on the White Council and clearly seemed to oppose it. He refrained from using black magic at all, and Kumori did only once. Those affected by the BC reek with black magic (the hexen wolves, the curses and rituals.) He seemed mostly reasonable, and spared Dresden many times, even though Dresden's stopped BC plot after BC plot. He's even out there burning books written by a known BC operative, Peabody.
Either way, he may have been BC-aligned during DB, but he wasn't a "mole" and it seems unlikely he ever hung out with Kemmler.
Isn't there a WOJ that some of the people we think are bad may not be? Thinking more on it, Cowl also would have eradicated the White Court vampires if not for Dresden, and we simply don't know enough to judge what the athame situation was about, especially in light of Mab's alleged madness.
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My opinion, based on his relationship with Kumori, is Cowl is full of bleep. Look at a man's actionss, not his words: he was goign to kill tens of thousands of people to try and become a god, at which point he probably had soem deal in place to kill the white council and help the reds win the war.
then, afterwards, he tries to restart the war between the white council and the white court.
he may be misguided as heck, but hes not a good guy.
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My opinion, based on his relationship with Kumori, is Cowl is full of bleep. Look at a man's actionss, not his words: he was goign to kill tens of thousands of people to try and become a god, at which point he probably had soem deal in place to kill the white council and help the reds win the war.
then, afterwards, he tries to restart the war between the white council and the white court.
he may be misguided as heck, but hes not a good guy.
Cowl evidently believed he couldn't take Grevane or Corpsetaker, or he would have even if his goals had been to start the Darkhallow. Cowl doesn't kill anyone in DB that I can remember. Even in the final battle, he's just standing their veiled as a zombie until the crucial moment.
In White Nights, Cowl would have exterminated the White Court if Dresden hadn't intervened and saved the Raiths (making them more powerful than ever.) Lara was the one who instigated the attacks. We don't know when the Malvora hooked up with Cowl, but the plan was Lara's.
I don't think Cowl is a good guy (though he thinks he is), but I'm not sure that he's BC judging by what we know the BC has tried to do and what Cowl has tried to do. I'd think of him as a darker Dresden.
EDIT: Also, FWIW, it was Cowl and the Malvora who drew Dresden's attentions to the attacks.
EDIT2: Also, I believe it was Corpsetaker and maybe Grevane who had the deal with the Reds. Corpsetaker had dealings with the Fomor in GS, which makes her more suspicious in terms of BC material to me. OTOH, we have evidence Cowl was aware of it, given his statement that the Council would fall within a few days.
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Neurove argued for a while that Cowl failed the darkhallow on purpose, that the whole thign was a trap to take out kemmler's people.
my only issue with that is he attempted the ritual, which would have killed tens of thousands.
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Neurove argued for a while that Cowl failed the darkhallow on purpose, that the whole thign was a trap to take out kemmler's people.
my only issue with that is he attempted the ritual, which would have killed tens of thousands.
Yeah, while Cowl was determined to take out Kemmler's people, he still started the ritual after Grevane and Corpsetaker were incapacitated - although you could at least make the argument that he didn't know about Corpsetaker. I think he was determined to get the Darkhallow because he was convinced he needed the power to stop anyone else from doing the same thing, and for his whole stop-death deal. Ciowl believed the world was shortly going to become a dark place, and he probably felt like he needed the power to do what he could.
There's no chance of Cowl being a "good" guy like Michael, but I think it's quite possible he's a "good guy" like, say, the Blackstaff or Kincaid.
EDIT: Although come to think of it, Corpsetaker was not actually dead. Maybe that's what Cowl meant by the only way to be sure he took them out was by using the Darkhallow, he knew they couldn't be killed even if they were killed.
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Yeah, while Cowl was determined to take out Kemmler's people, he still started the ritual after Grevane and Corpsetaker were incapacitated - although you could at least make the argument that he didn't know about Corpsetaker. I think he was determined to get the Darkhallow because he was convinced he needed the power to stop anyone else from doing the same thing, and for his whole stop-death deal. Ciowl believed the world was shortly going to become a dark place, and he probably felt like he needed the power to do what he could.
There's no chance of Cowl being a "good" guy like Michael, but I think it's quite possible he's a "good guy" like, say, the Blackstaff or Kincaid.
EDIT: Although come to think of it, Corpsetaker was not actually dead. Maybe that's what Cowl meant by the only way to be sure he took them out was by using the Darkhallow, he knew they couldn't be killed even if they were killed.
I think he knew that the power gained from that ritual is not enough to 'stop death' anr remake the world into a paradise. Kumori was young and innocent, and bought that nwhole line hook and sinker.
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Chapter 8, p98.
"Get your own book, Kemmlerite."
"I have nothing but disdain for the madman Kemmler."
"Is that what you're doing, destroying copies of the book?"
"Time has taken most of them. We have accounted for the rest." (K)
"Is it not enough that Kemmler's disciples could use this knowledge for great evil?"
"Grevane and the Corpsetaker are madmen. They must be stopped." (K)
"Do you know why Cowl has made a study of necromancy? [...] Necromancy can be turned upon it's nature[.] Life can be served by that dark power, if one's will and purpose are strong."
"Grevane and the Corpsetaker are determined. I intend to beat them to the prize and use it to destroy them. It's the only way to be sure one of those madmen does not become something more terrible than the Earth has ever seen."
Cowl does imply he's met Grevane and Corpsetaker before. But I think it's clear he was never a mole in any meaningful sense of the word, and very unlikely he ever worked with Kemmler, even as a spy.
We saw that Grevane immediately leapt to the conclusion that Dresden too was a Kemmlerite working towards the same purpose as the others just on the basis of Dresden's aura or magic being tainted. It seems fairly clear that Cowl never worked with Kemmler, or was ever any kind of mole - the actual Kemmlerites just assumed he was because he was going for the Darkhallow, so they assumed he was acting in Kemmler's name. In actuality, Cowl intended on stopping them himself - not because he actually wanted the power for himself, but because he was convinced the Darkhallow was going to happen, and it had better be him there rather than one of the crazy Kemmlerites.
That's important because even though Cowl is a student of necromancy, it's clear his aims and purposes are very, very different than Kemmler's. On the other hand, I think it's important to note Cowl never actually used necromancy once, and his apprentice (?) Kumori only used it to revive the dying guy.
Indeed, in DB at least, I'm almost inclined to believe that Cowl was working at cross-purposes to the BC. The BC (we believe, anyway) has taken every opportunity to throw the world into chaos. Cowl not only seemed intent on stopping (world-wide, not Chicago-wide) chaos and destruction in DB, he alerted Dresden to the corruption on the White Council and clearly seemed to oppose it. He refrained from using black magic at all, and Kumori did only once. Those affected by the BC reek with black magic (the hexen wolves, the curses and rituals.) He seemed mostly reasonable, and spared Dresden many times, even though Dresden's stopped BC plot after BC plot. He's even out there burning books written by a known BC operative, Peabody.
Either way, he may have been BC-aligned during DB, but he wasn't a "mole" and it seems unlikely he ever hung out with Kemmler.
Isn't there a WOJ that some of the people we think are bad may not be? Thinking more on it, Cowl also would have eradicated the White Court vampires if not for Dresden, and we simply don't know enough to judge what the athame situation was about, especially in light of Mab's alleged madness.
1- Grevane didn't think Harry was a Kemmlerite. he sensed dark/ necro magic trace in Harry. that is it. not once did he call him a Kemmlerite.
2- Cowl did not imply he met Grevane and CT before, he comes out and says it directly in that chapter i provided. he speaks and works with them.
3- Harry senses the dark magic in Cowl when they meet in front of the bookstore. much like himself. than when Cowl flees he senses a stronger use of the dark magic. also using the Darkhallow is dark magic. why give away yourself using necro magic if you don't need to? it is a tactical decision.
4- Cowl is bonkers. p324 same chapter. H " your the orrect madman for the job."
C, "i do not percieve myself to be mad. but if i were truly mad, would i be able to tell."
5- he considered himself the lesser of the 3 evils. which is a load of bunk since he would be responsible for killing thousands still by finishing the Darkhallow instead of stopping it.
6- he spared Harry?! he would have killed him in at the book store. he killed him by breaking the circle holding Erl knowing he would come back to kill him. he told dresden if he came to the ritual he would kill him.
7- he wasn't going to wipe out the WCV he was going to place Vitto at its head to run it for him.
8- why not tell him the WCouncil is corrupt it will make him not trust them and take away an ally from him if he stops working with them. he tells them the WC will fall perhaps tomorrow. Cowl was planning on gaining that power from the Darkhallow so he basically said he was going to destroy the WC.
9- he was burning the Erl book because he did not want the summoning ritual to be used by someone to stop the Darkhallow. since he had already had the book he knew the ritual.
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Cowl evidently believed he couldn't take Grevane or Corpsetaker, or he would have even if his goals had been to start the Darkhallow. Cowl doesn't kill anyone in DB that I can remember. Even in the final battle, he's just standing their veiled as a zombie until the crucial moment.
In White Nights, Cowl would have exterminated the White Court if Dresden hadn't intervened and saved the Raiths (making them more powerful than ever.) Lara was the one who instigated the attacks. We don't know when the Malvora hooked up with Cowl, but the plan was Lara's.
I don't think Cowl is a good guy (though he thinks he is), but I'm not sure that he's BC judging by what we know the BC has tried to do and what Cowl has tried to do. I'd think of him as a darker Dresden.
EDIT: Also, FWIW, it was Cowl and the Malvora who drew Dresden's attentions to the attacks.
EDIT2: Also, I believe it was Corpsetaker and maybe Grevane who had the deal with the Reds. Corpsetaker had dealings with the Fomor in GS, which makes her more suspicious in terms of BC material to me. OTOH, we have evidence Cowl was aware of it, given his statement that the Council would fall within a few days.
in WN Cowl would not have wiped out the WCV. he would have gained contol of them. they were supposed to be involved in the war aiding the RCV. thanks to Dresden backing Lara he took them out of the war. Cowl planned on using Vitto to get them back in the war since the RCV were weakening.
Vitto worked for Cowl and was going to burn a building down and kill dresden and the Ordo. Cowl did not bring Dresden's attention to the culling, Madrigal did it w/out Vitto or Cowl's order.
as for Cowl not killing anyone in DB.... haha. he practically killed Dresden a few times. by breaking the circle he knew the Erl would want to kill him. Harry would have died when Cowl absorbed the Darkhallow as well as Ramirez and thousands of others. only reason he didn't kill Harry was he was worried about Dresden's Death Curse so close to the ritual time.
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1- Grevane didn't think Harry was a Kemmlerite. he sensed dark/ necro magic trace in Harry. that is it. not once did he call him a Kemmlerite.
He didn't come right out and say it in those words, no. He says "You are, in fact, more of my own persuasion" and "This need not end in bloodshed - particularly not now, so close to the end of the race. Join me against the others." The implication is that he thinks he and Harry have been working at the same goal, Kemmler's teachings, ("the race") and that they should work together against the other Kemmlerites.
2- Cowl did not imply he met Grevane and CT before, he comes out and says it directly in that chapter i provided. he speaks and works with them.
He says he has seen them in action before, and that when it comes down to it, he's the smart one who actually gets things done. That's not the same thing as speaking and working with them.
3- Harry senses the dark magic in Cowl when they meet in front of the bookstore. much like himself. than when Cowl flees he senses a stronger use of the dark magic. also using the Darkhallow is dark magic. why give away yourself using necro magic if you don't need to? it is a tactical decision.
What's tactical about it?
4- Cowl is bonkers. p324 same chapter. H " your the orrect madman for the job."
C, "i do not percieve myself to be mad. but if i were truly mad, would i be able to tell."
He's probably not all there, but he's at least capable of considering the question. Has Harry not wondered the same thing?
5- he considered himself the lesser of the 3 evils. which is a load of bunk since he would be responsible for killing thousands still by finishing the Darkhallow instead of stopping it.
He considered himself different based on what was going happen to the world if Grevane or Corpsetaker ascended versus if he ascended.
6- he spared Harry?! he would have killed him in at the book store. he killed him by breaking the circle holding Erl knowing he would come back to kill him. he told dresden if he came to the ritual he would kill him.
Harry's still alive, isn't he?
He never indicated that he intended to kill Harry at the bookstore. He seemed more interesting in taking the book and testing his strength. He then left when a couple wolves showed up rather than press matters.
He told Harry he would kill him if he got in the way of his plans to save the world from an evil dark god. Harry got in his way twice anyway. He let Harry go after the Erlking summoning, even though he was at his mercy. Yes, he assumed that the Erlking would come back later and finish him off, but he still spared him. He even spared him at the Darkhallow, even when Evil Bob told him the ritual would likely fail with Dresden alive.
7- he wasn't going to wipe out the WCV he was going to place Vitto at its head to run it for him.
Vitto turned on his own people. The Malvoras and Skavis all died, and all the Raiths would have died. The only White Court vampire to survive would have been Vitto, and any lesser vamps who didn't attend. The White Court would have been basically extinct. Nowhere did Cowl or Vitto imply the goal of the operation was to consolidate power under Vitto, and it wouldn't have made very much sense. If that's what they wanted, they should have not involved Dresden and Cowl should have killed the Skavis.
8- why not tell him the WCouncil is corrupt it will make him not trust them and take away an ally from him if he stops working with them. he tells them the WC will fall perhaps tomorrow. Cowl was planning on gaining that power from the Darkhallow so he basically said he was going to destroy the WC.
And why did Cowl need to be so indirect with Harry, who he clearly outclassed? Why did he talk about the horrible things Grevane and Corpsetaker were going to do to the world that he needed to stop?
9- he was burning the Erl book because he did not want the summoning ritual to be used by someone to stop the Darkhallow. since he had already had the book he knew the ritual.
If Cowl was BC, he could have just asked Peabody and they could have never written the book.
in WN Cowl would not have wiped out the WCV. he would have gained contol of them. they were supposed to be involved in the war aiding the RCV. thanks to Dresden backing Lara he took them out of the war. Cowl planned on using Vitto to get them back in the war since the RCV were weakening.
Vitto worked for Cowl and was going to burn a building down and kill dresden and the Ordo. Cowl did not bring Dresden's attention to the culling, Madrigal did it w/out Vitto or Cowl's order.
as for Cowl not killing anyone in DB.... haha. he practically killed Dresden a few times. by breaking the circle he knew the Erl would want to kill him. Harry would have died when Cowl absorbed the Darkhallow as well as Ramirez and thousands of others. only reason he didn't kill Harry was he was worried about Dresden's Death Curse so close to the ritual time.
The only thing Cowl would have gained control of would be the massive pile of WCV corpses he and his agent created.
Lara instigated the Skavis and Malvora plots to kill mortal women, not Cowl. The only direct action Cowl took in White Night was to watch his servant murder nearly all the WCVs. No WCVs would have survived had Dresden not intervened.
Unless Dresden held Erlking in that circle until he died of old age, Dresden had already screwed himself over. Cowl breaking the circle changed nothing with regard to what the Erlking was going to do to Dresden when he got a chance.
Cowl was not afraid of Dresden's death curse, and as Dresden said, he wouldn't need anything near as powerful as his death curse to stop Cowl at the moment he was drawing down the power.
And Cowl's actions in DB were nevertheless very different from the other bad guys, who ran around killing and black magicking indiscriminately. Cowl, meanwhile mugged Dresden, used an EMP, veiled himself, and tried to finish the Darkhallow.
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But the corpses weren't the sum total of the WCV...just the ruling families. Thus leaving Vitto challenger free without having to deal with any of their games, or hide, from his people, his allegiance or purpose. Remember...they're the sneaky, back-stabby manipulators. If there was to be any meaningful and predictable control of them, it'd have to be total. Those were the ruling triumvirate families. There are plenty other "lesser houses" that Vitto could spin whatever he wanted to at, and start with a blank slate. Rebuild as he saw fit with the BC having his back.
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The Erlking as the source of the hexenwulf belts doesn't feel right to me for the same reasons some of you already noted: he may be a predator and a hunter, but not evil or a perversion of nature, which the belts seem to be.
Also, I've always had the passing out of these belts linked in my head with the seatbelts used to make people who used them fall in love. (from a short story. Maybe Love Hurts?) Two different belts which are magic which cause addictions in the people who touch the magical item? It seems like too similar a tactic to be a coincidence. The love seatbelts were made by a red court vamp to make people fall in love so there would be less food for WCVs. IIRC there was also a hint that the RCV who made the seatbelts was taught by someone else the magic she needed to pull it off. I thought at the time it was a black court vamp, even Mavra, who taught the RCV the magic. Therefore, I thought maybe Mavra was one who made the hexenwulf belts.
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Vitto turned on his own people. The Malvoras and Skavis all died, and all the Raiths would have died. The only White Court vampire to survive would have been Vitto, and any lesser vamps who didn't attend. The White Court would have been basically extinct. Nowhere did Cowl or Vitto imply the goal of the operation was to consolidate power under Vitto, and it wouldn't have made very much sense. If that's what they wanted, they should have not involved Dresden and Cowl should have killed the Skavis.
No, that was just the top ranked nobles, the bulk of the White Court would have been just fine.
He says he has seen them in action before, and that when it comes down to it, he's the smart one who actually gets things done. That's not the same thing as speaking and working with them.
Doesn't he say something about talking and working with them after breaking the EK's circle?
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No, that was just the top ranked nobles, the bulk of the White Court would have been just fine.
Doesn't he say something about talking and working with them after breaking the EK's circle?
I agree. What Cowl did fits in with what I think is the BC mission. Take over or place traitors in the major powers. Cause the major powers to fight and weaken each other. Help those powers with your men or catspaws in charge (at least for a time). Cowl was to place his man in charge of the White Court and kill all major White Court members who could oppose Vittorio. He would take out the White Council's leadership and plunge them into chaos either destroying/crippling them or placing someone working for Cowl in charge.
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I think he knew that the power gained from that ritual is not enough to 'stop death' anr remake the world into a paradise. Kumori was young and innocent, and bought that nwhole line hook and sinker.
I think that Cowl is at least genuine in his goals, though I agree that the Darkhallow would probably not give him enough power, but you can't live in just a foundation of a house, the Darkhallow would give him more of an ability to gain the power he would actually need to do that.
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I think the best Fit for who did this was the WK(perhaps Lara's influence).
But... I offer this up for debate... Did we SEE lara take over the WK?
For all we know, the WK might be pulling one over all of us.
I believe Thomas says: you must embrace the role.
WC vamps blend in very easily, and are smart. The WK didn't become the WK because he made mistakes that were costly as the one he made with Harry and Thomas.
Truth is, I don't particularly see any solid proof that the WK is under Lara's control. She could be under his control.
Any evidence to the contrary can be construed as evidence that the WK is more capable than we expect.
As for Cowl and Peabody,
Cowl could be working with the BC, it fits, but also having the BC make elaborate plans to make him appear one way or the other also fits...
These discussions are always hard, because if we make assumptions/conclusions based on faulty information, or lack thereof, we could be wrong, or draw the wrong conclusions for the right reasons. In the end, I could argue every single point. In a court of law, we call this circumstantial evidence, that lacks the necessary solidity of fact.
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I think the best Fit for who did this was the WK(perhaps Lara's influence).
But... I offer this up for debate... Did we SEE lara take over the WK?
For all we know, the WK might be pulling one over all of us.
I believe Thomas says: you must embrace the role.
WC vamps blend in very easily, and are smart. The WK didn't become the WK because he made mistakes that were costly as the one he made with Harry and Thomas.
Truth is, I don't particularly see any solid proof that the WK is under Lara's control. She could be under his control.
Any evidence to the contrary can be construed as evidence that the WK is more capable than we expect.
By WoJ, he got himself enslaved. He isn't in control.
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Is it more proof that the wolf belts are from the NN that Benn's turned to ectoplasm when she died? If they orginated in our world would it have done so?
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Bob on Hexenwolves in FM (hatchet job, all quoted, but mixed for easy reading)
“Hexenwolf,” Bob said, with a strong Germanic accent. “Spell wolf. The Church declared war on anyone who chose to become a Hexenwolf, and burned a huge number of people at the stake. The most common way, back in France, was to make a deal with a demon or a devil or a powerful sorcerer. You get a wolf-hide belt, put it on, say the magic words, and whammy, you’re a wolf. A Hexenwolf. You don’t use your own magic to become a wolf. You use someone else’s. It’s different because you’re employing a talisman. Sometimes it’s a ring or amulet, but usually it’s a belt. The talisman provides an anchor for a spirit of bestial rage. Nasty thing from the bad side of the Nevernever. That spirit wraps around a human personality to keep it from being destroyed. It leaves you with your own intellect and reason, but the spirit handles everything else. And when you use a talisman to turn into a wolf, you lose all of your human inhibitions and so on, and just run on your unconscious desires, with the talisman-spirit in charge of the way the body moves. It’s really efficient. A huge wolf with human-level intelligence and animal-level ferocity.”
Possible Suspects
- Victor Sells - unlikely, he was already dead, and while Harry said he was powerful, he didn't have a lot of training
- Leonid Kravos - possible, he summoned demons that could have helped, but no evidence that he was THAT powerful, nor inclined to that form of magic, nor active that early
- Madge Shelly - unlikely; although the most powerful of the ex-wives, we presume her contact with PapaR started due to Arturo's defiance, which was years later.
- Mavra - possible, but doesn't seem to tie in with her darker magic style
- Bianca - unlikely, it was probably too early for her to be that far along in her sorceress apprenticeship, and I don't think we had proof she was 'powerful'
- Ortega - unlikely, no evidence he was that powerful of a sorcerer
- Arianna - possible, seemed to have power, and may have been able to make the belts
- Leah - unlikely, she DOES have a thing for transforming humans into dogs, but she wasn't crazy from the athame yet, and she wouldn't have wanted Harry dead.
- Mab - unlikely, it all seems beneath her
- Aurora - unlikely, no proof she was crazy yet
- Erlking - possible; he may have made the belts, but I don't seem him giving them to Denton. Who else would he make them for, probably at Fae cost, who would then give them away to Denton for free?
- Nicodemus - unlikely, no evidence that he's ever done magic on that scale
- Thorned Namshiel - possible, due to presumed Blouncil ties and known magical ability
- Lord Raith - possible/unlikely, i like to pin everything on him these days, and he knows magic, but him being cut off from using magic makes it nay impossible.
- Lara Raith - unlikely, we haven't seen her do any magic other than the White Court Whammy
- Madrigal Raith - unlikely, we never saw proof he would be in the 'powerful wizard' category
- Madeline Raith - unlikely, like her brother, doesn't seem to have any magical ability
- Skavis - unlikely, no evidence whatsoever of magical ability beyond standard White Court
- Cowl - possible; he has enough power, is familiar with the NN, can handle demon-beast things, but what would his motivation have been?
- Corpsetaker - possible; she knew SOMETHING about bodies, but doesn't seem like her forte
- Grevane - unlikely; as a traditional necromancer, it doesn't seem like his bag
- Skinwalker - possible, is powerful, familiar with darker magics, shapeshifting, and has helped at least once in a presumed Blouncil plot.
- Theoretical Kumori/Elaine: She's probably powerful enough; she spent time in Summer, and may have learned how to bind NN spirits to a belt like Bob described; she would definitely warn people about the Wouncil, but other than being a task Cowl gave her, wouldn't have motivation against Marcone.
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" Erlking - possible; he may have made the belts, but I don't seem him giving them to Denton. Who else would he make them for, probably at Fae cost, who would then give them away to Denton for free?"
Ah. But how do we know the FBI agents did not cut a deal with him for services or goods?
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I reread Love Hurts. When Murphy says the seatbelts are like the wolf belts, Harry says yeah, exactly. So I think any theory which solves who gave out the wolf belts needs to consider who was behing the magic seatbelts in Love Hurts. He says the magic involved in creating them was delicate difficult magic for which there might not be three people on the entire WC who could pull it off. he also calls the belt a focus item with a routine built in-'you pour energy in one end, and you get results on the other.'. FWIW, that is how Harry describes the entropy curse ritual in Blood Bites-pour energy in, results come out. And 'delicate magic' seems to be a tag for Elaine's magic, iirc. Ergo, Elaine is BC, in league with outsiders (from whom the entropy curse comes) and is passing out magical objects and rituals to sow chaos.
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a quick note about cowl. We know that he used/uses necromancy not only from the dark stain harry feels, but because he was there at the darkhallow. remember that u had to be protected by necromancy magic in order to get close. Ramirez got there without using necromancy because he was riding Sue, which probably 'trailed' a huge necromancy wake, like a boat in the water. Its plausable that Cowl sneaked into the gathering, but he would have to be really really close to the other zombies. Maybe in the middle of a huge crowd of zombies would give him enough protection. But most likely not. Its most likely that he had his own 'field' of necro energy surrounding him.
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Or, you know, Cowl simply absorbed/created necromantic energy, or used it in a metyhod similar to what Kumori did to prolong that one guy's life. It's not simply a matter of "did he raise zombies or not".
Remember, Harry channeled a massive amount of earth energy in Changes, by tapping into a ley line. Cowl could've simply channeled through a necromantic leyline, and called it a day. Or he could've eaten some shades.
Just saying, its difficult to just automatically assume he used some necromancy
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the differnce is that Harry and Ramirez would ahve been killed the minute they enterred the darkhallow radius if they had not had a conection with Sue. Ergo, at least one of the zombies/ spectres on that field was cowl's and kumoris.
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Unless he tapped it and held the latent energy within himself, much like Harry held in a lot of ambient magic in SmF
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Unless he tapped it and held the latent energy within himself, much like Harry held in a lot of ambient magic in SmF
enh. maybe. its a p[osibility, but woudl you do that and risk your life when its easier just to have one ghost hidden under your cloak?
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If Rameriz was ok (even though he didnt use necromancy) because he was surrounded by the results of Harrys necromancy, couldnt Cowl have done the same? I.E. Been protected by Grevane and Corpsetakers necromancy? The spirits and zombies were all over the place at the center of the darkhallow.
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I'm working on the assumption that Cowl is as powerful and knowledgeable as Harry seems to think he is. If he did what I suggested, he would've known ahead of time that it would work.
But, as was just said, there's no reason he wouldn't be protected via the others' necromancy, given that we know magic lingers
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I just think he had a backup plan in case Harry and the wardens did not show; taking out grevane and doign the spell himself probably involved a few udnead of his own. ;D
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One other funny fact from Love Hurts..the RCV, who is trying, in part, to takeout the white court is named Baroness LeBlanc. Last name roughly translates as 'the white' in french.
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enh. maybe. its a p[osibility, but woudl you do that and risk your life when its easier just to have one ghost hidden under your cloak?
Is that the best from the Duck? I figured you would have preferred a theory that Kumori was Cowl's re-animated wizard thing.
" Erlking - possible; he may have made the belts, but I don't seem him giving them to Denton. Who else would he make them for, probably at Fae cost, who would then give them away to Denton for free?"
Ah. But how do we know the FBI agents did not cut a deal with him for services or goods?
My issue is with the Erlking directly dealing with Denton. Denton and his team were obviously aware of the supernatural, but Denton probably wouldn't simply take something from the Erlking in his normal form. And why would the Erlking want Marcone out of the way? Remember, the agents were given the belts so that they could punish criminals that were untouchable. What does the Erlking care about that? And he probably wouldn't sick the agents on MacFinn, who is a great hunter. Unless his plan was to have MacFinn's circle broken, so he was a loose hunter as opposed to a caged hunter. But that all seems beneath someone like the Erlking.
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Is that the best from the Duck? I figured you would have preferred a theory that Kumori was Cowl's re-animated wizard thing.
My issue is with the Erlking directly dealing with Denton. Denton and his team were obviously aware of the supernatural, but Denton probably wouldn't simply take something from the Erlking in his normal form. And why would the Erlking want Marcone out of the way? Remember, the agents were given the belts so that they could punish criminals that were untouchable. What does the Erlking care about that? And he probably wouldn't sick the agents on MacFinn, who is a great hunter. Unless his plan was to have MacFinn's circle broken, so he was a loose hunter as opposed to a caged hunter. But that all seems beneath someone like the Erlking.
well if you want a duckyism: Sigurd Gard is a gaet, 'a scion of beowulf' as jim said; the original myth the nielblerung(sp, im not even gonna try) has her being the grandaughter of Odin and the jotun queen Gerda, goddess of winter, aka the queen of air and darkness.
Hmmmm....
and Hendricks has aneat, old sword, that the fomor recognized.
(maybe gram?)
EK is one of the poeple who can summon the wild hunt. so is Odin. the two liekly are not friends. EK says he messes with people who interfere with his hunts..
there ya go, ducky enough?
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Re: Cowl channeling necromantic energy, doesn't Box explicitly say that you need to be surrounded by the energy? Bob could be wrong, or something, but just having that in you wouldn't count. There must be something outside to cover and block/absorb it to work if Bob is right.
Though Cowl could maybe have made a necroshield around himself, I suppose.
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Re: Cowl channeling necromantic energy, doesn't Box explicitly say that you need to be surrounded by the energy? Bob could be wrong, or something, but just having that in you wouldn't count. There must be something outside to cover and block/absorb it to work if Bob is right.
Though Cowl could maybe have made a necroshield around himself, I suppose.
Cowl is, in fact, a zombie himself.
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Cowl is, in fact, a zombie himself.
What makes you think that? Also, zombies in the Dresdenverse don't have independent thought like Cowl does.
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Cowl is, in fact, a zombie himself.
well hed be black court if he was anything like that. it's been sugested, but if so, why did Mavra betray him then?
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What makes you think that? Also, zombies in the Dresdenverse don't have independent thought like Cowl does.
Sorry, I meant that as a joke/silly theory. The joke would have been that Cowl was a blampire or something similar and acting as his own walking vessel of necromantic energy. This theory doesn't actually work because Cowl draws on life magic just like Harry, and if he were a blampire he couldn't do that.
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Sorry, I meant that as a joke/silly theory. The joke would have been that Cowl was a blampire or something similar and acting as his own walking vessel of necromantic energy. This theory doesn't actually work because Cowl draws on life magic just like Harry, and if he were a blampire he couldn't do that.
which is why quacky folks sepculate he is a deep one/ fomor. They had notable wizards in lovecraft, and can often pass for humans.
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well i have always thought that the 3 Kemmlerites all specialized in differing areas of Necro magic. Grevane animation of zombies and physical dead, CT mind magic/ spirits/ ghosts, Cowl i am thinking pure Necro magic/ Black magic to power himself ( sort of like the necro magic EBob released into Dresden ). i mean Kumori was never drumming anything and never really used magic much. suppose he concentrated necro magic around her to act as his necro shield to get through the area.
Harry senses a taint when they first met, than when Cowl escapes by the book store Harry senses an increase in dark magic. that was making a gateway. suppose his specialty was summonings like that of demons and Outsiders?
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which is why quacky folks sepculate he is a deep one/ fomor. They had notable wizards in lovecraft, and can often pass for humans.
I thought Gard's description of Fomor magic in "Even Hand" made it sound quite unlike human magic, though; much more chaotic, and not something Harry would likely mistake for such.
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which is why quacky folks sepculate he is a deep one/ fomor. They had notable wizards in lovecraft, and can often pass for humans.
Yeah I think there's strong odds that he's fomor, or more specifically, a human with heavy Fomor modifications -- he draws on magic that's definitely human, BUT we keep seeing mentions of "mildew" and similar things around his magic, and he keeps impressing Harry as human-but-not-quite-human.
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BUT we keep seeing mentions of "mildew" and similar things around his magic
I think that's a clue as to where he hangs out, not what/who he is. or at least, the mildew reference i remember around Cowl is when he and Kumori disappear when faced by the Alphas in DB (and we can be pretty sure that's not a veil because of Bob's explanation of how invisibility is useless against wolves in FM, so it kind of must be an escape to the NN), and I think what that's meant to connect up with is the description of the place Peabody runs to at the end of TC.
and he keeps impressing Harry as human-but-not-quite-human.
I'm not recalling that off the top of my head, other than his voice sounding not particularly human, which I tend to read as part of his disguise. I don't think Harry has that reaction to his magic anywhere, anyway. Am I forgetting something ?
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i think Ms. Duck's explanation makes the most sense. We have WoJ that Erlking is only one of several beings that can call the wild hunt. Given that this is also true outside the dresdenverse (in early mythology) and that in early mythology Odin is one of those beings that can call the Hunt, it's reasonable to assume Odin has that same power in the dresdenverse. Add to that Erl's comment that he messes with those who messes with his hunt and you have a reasonable cause for Erl to mess with Odin's plans, (i.e. Marcone). Add to that Erl's domain is on the other side of the FBI building and you now have a pretty solid case for it being Erl. Plus the magical item here turns people into one of the greatest hunters known to human kind, that right in line with the way Erl likes it.
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I think that's a clue as to where he hangs out, not what/who he is. or at least, the mildew reference i remember around Cowl is when he and Kumori disappear when faced by the Alphas in DB (and we can be pretty sure that's not a veil because of Bob's explanation of how invisibility is useless against wolves in FM, so it kind of must be an escape to the NN), and I think what that's meant to connect up with is the description of the place Peabody runs to at the end of TC.
I'm not recalling that off the top of my head, other than his voice sounding not particularly human, which I tend to read as part of his disguise. I don't think Harry has that reaction to his magic anywhere, anyway. Am I forgetting something ?
Neuro!!!!! *hugz* woots i missed ya ;D
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(and we can be pretty sure that's not a veil because of Bob's explanation of how invisibility is useless against wolves in FM, so it kind of must be an escape to the NN)
It could be a veil, just not one limited to sight. Just like Harry reformats his shield spell to cover different types of energy beyond kinetic, I don't see why a wizard of Cowl's caliber couldn't put up a veil to mask his scent and sound as well as sight.
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It could be a veil, just not one limited to sight. Just like Harry reformats his shield spell to cover different types of energy beyond kinetic, I don't see why a wizard of Cowl's caliber couldn't put up a veil to mask his scent and sound as well as sight.
And bodyheat as well. I suppose it's not impossible that Cowl is strong enough and skilled enough to do that, but it seems a very complex thing to do pretty much instantly, and I'm not seeing why the mildew smell would show up when a veil was cast but not be mentioned before, so I still find the "quick gate out" explanation more plausible; I also think some kind of really quick and sneaky gate out is pretty much necessary for Cowl to have survived the end of DB.
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It could be a veil, just not one limited to sight. Just like Harry reformats his shield spell to cover different types of energy beyond kinetic, I don't see why a wizard of Cowl's caliber couldn't put up a veil to mask his scent and sound as well as sight.
its mentioned in changes that Molly improved her veils enough to hide from werwolves; in fact, she does so in GS at the scene with mort.
now, how she does this without breakign the third law is a much debated topic ;D ;D ;D
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Oh, OK, I'd not remembered that bit. Suppose it could have been a veil after all.
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I think that's a clue as to where he hangs out, not what/who he is. or at least, the mildew reference i remember around Cowl is when he and Kumori disappear when faced by the Alphas in DB (and we can be pretty sure that's not a veil because of Bob's explanation of how invisibility is useless against wolves in FM, so it kind of must be an escape to the NN), and I think what that's meant to connect up with is the description of the place Peabody runs to at the end of TC.
I'm not recalling that off the top of my head, other than his voice sounding not particularly human, which I tend to read as part of his disguise. I don't think Harry has that reaction to his magic anywhere, anyway. Am I forgetting something ?
The main reason I suspect Cowl is Fomor is actually that he says "Thrice I ask and Done" to Harry, and that's a Fae formulation. We know the Fomor have Fae traditions, so that coupled with the nonhuman voice, human magic, and mildew, all together make me think human with Fomor modifications. His extreme magical oomph is also an argument here -- he's stronger than Ebenezer, much less Harry, so he's likely done something dark to get that power.
I see what you're saying about how the mildew reference is possibly a clue as to where rather than what, but all the "mildew"-referenced portals are opening from and (and therefore into) dramatically different places -- either they're using a different kind of portal into the nevernever such that they can zap themselves over into a different nevernever, and that different nevernever smells musty and mildewed no matter where you go in it, OR they can open an Odin-style teleportation portal whenever they want to, OR there's something in Cowl's (and perhaps Peabody's) magic that's tainted, and that taint of mildew is expressed in the way they open portals.
Either way, I read the mildew/water/damp connection as a likely connection to the Fomor, mainly because if the Fomor haven't shown up at all prior to Aftermath, that's bad plotting on Butcher's part, and I don't see him doing that; villains that major must have been foreshadowed somewhere. Plus, having Cowl conceal his identity because he's Fomor (or fomor-modified human) is a nice twist on the "expected" reveal that if we see a disguised villain, he "must" be someone we've already seen.
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The main reason I suspect Cowl is Fomor is actually that he says "Thrice I ask and Done" to Harry, and that's a Fae formulation.
I'm not sure it's significantly more a Fae formulation than wizards use in general, though, cf Harry setting three conditions on his agreement to become Winter Knight in Changes, or the questions he gets from Lea in GS. (I kind of tend not to notice that as a Fae-specific thing because it's not exceedingly rare to find that sort of pattern in spoken English in Celtic countries, it was the sort of thing people around me when I was growing up might plausibly say.)
I see what you're saying about how the mildew reference is possibly a clue as to where rather than what, but all the "mildew"-referenced portals are opening from and (and therefore into) dramatically different places -- either they're using a different kind of portal into the nevernever such that they can zap themselves over into a different nevernever, and that different nevernever smells musty and mildewed no matter where you go in it, OR they can open an Odin-style teleportation portal whenever they want to, OR there's something in Cowl's (and perhaps Peabody's) magic that's tainted, and that taint of mildew is expressed in the way they open portals.
That argument seems to me to contain the assumption that Earthly geography maps consistently into the NN, and I think the evidence in the books argues otherwise; in GP Harry gets into Bianca's house from fairly close to where Michael and Thomas leave the NN, but they end up in a strip club because Thomas has an affinity for such places; in WN the two portals opened into the Deeps in the final battle lead to wildly different parts of the NN.
I think Cowl in DB and Peabody in WN are more likely aiming for the same general region of the NN, possibly very close together, but that they can get there from pretty much anywhere in Earth.
Either way, I read the mildew/water/damp connection as a likely connection to the Fomor, mainly because if the Fomor haven't shown up at all prior to Aftermath, that's bad plotting on Butcher's part, and I don't see him doing that; villains that major must have been foreshadowed somewhere.
I'm inclined to disagree here too, both because halfway through the series does not seem too late to be introducing major players to me, and because having Sidhe-type Faerie seems to me to automatically imply something Fomorian-like as part of the same mythos so they've been implicitly set up since GP; it's no more bad plotting to my mind than not introducing angels loyal to Heaven until halfway through the series if there were explicitly Christian-mythos fallen angels several books earlier.
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I'm not sure it's significantly more a Fae formulation than wizards use in general, though, cf Harry setting three conditions on his agreement to become Winter Knight in Changes, or the questions he gets from Lea in GS. (I kind of tend not to notice that as a Fae-specific thing because it's not exceedingly rare to find that sort of pattern in spoken English in Celtic countries, it was the sort of thing people around me when I was growing up might plausibly say.)
Yeah, but in both those circumstances Harry is speaking with the Fae and so consciously adopting their lingo -- it's not something Harry just does when he's talking to, say, Kincaid, or Ebenezer, or Mavra. So I think it's a tipoff. Is there anywhere else in the series where we get that formulation and there isn't a Fae in the conversation?
That argument seems to me to contain the assumption that Earthly geography maps consistently into the NN, and I think the evidence in the books argues otherwise; in GP Harry gets into Bianca's house from fairly close to where Michael and Thomas leave the NN, but they end up in a strip club because Thomas has an affinity for such places; in WN the two portals opened into the Deeps in the final battle lead to wildly different parts of the NN.
Yeah, that's the assumption, or at least one possible assumption. The way I've read the books so far, there is a 1:1 map between Dresden's Prime Material Plane and the NeverNever -- it's just that there's a wild variation over distance, i.e, even moving an inch in 'reality" might take you to a wildly different place in the NN. The main evidence for such a 1:1 map would seem to be the possibilty of guarding things from the NN side -- i.e., Lea's Garden, the Nazi Ghost Beach, etc. The other evidence would be the relative stability of Ways through the NeverNever -- You can't just wish up a spot near you that will take you to X place, you have to find a spot near you that opens up into a spot that's near the spot you want to get to in the NN, etc. Without some degree of stable correspondence and mapping, Harry's mother's amulet is an unnecessary waste -- you could just hop straight to wherever you wanted to go.
The way I read the passage with Thomas and Michael, they'd had to travel to a spot where there was a corresponding spot that Thomas had an affinity (the strip club). But I admit it's open to interpretation.
I'm inclined to disagree here too, both because halfway through the series does not seem too late to be introducing major players to me, and because having Sidhe-type Faerie seems to me to automatically imply something Fomorian-like as part of the same mythos so they've been implicitly set up since GP; it's no more bad plotting to my mind than not introducing angels loyal to Heaven until halfway through the series if there were explicitly Christian-mythos fallen angels several books earlier.
Fair point, but one that might seem stronger to someone raised in Celtic lore. For us ignorant Americans the Fomor are pretty darn esoteric -- most modern fantasy that talks about the Fae doesn't talk about the Fomor (Tolkien, Gaiman, Susannah Clarke, etc.).
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As far as the Erlking-Wild Hunt-Odin-Marcone theory, is there any evidence to suggest that Odin had an interest in Marcone as early as FM?
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I don't think Cowl has to be a Fomor, but he could have received upgrades like a Servitor. Maybe as part and parcel to working with them, he got some gills. We've seen where he's willing to do things to power up, like the Darkhallow.
As for the mold and mildew smell, it could also be that, while not a true Fomor, he could be acting out the roll of a Fomor Knight/Emmisary, in return for shelter and a base of operations, similar to Elaine going to Summer. The Fomor could give him grunt support if needed, other resources, in exchange for playing a role in their plans. Not that he would have to buy in to advancing their plans; just as long as they buy that he is.
As far as the Erlking-Wild Hunt-Odin-Marcone theory, is there any evidence to suggest that Odin had an interest in Marcone as early as FM?
ring the duck-bell. I don't recall there being anything that early. The first I recall was with the appearance of Gard in DB.
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As far as the Erlking-Wild Hunt-Odin-Marcone theory, is there any evidence to suggest that Odin had an interest in Marcone as early as FM?
There are several theories out there about Marcone or Hendricks being involved with Odin; or the idea that one of them is one of the old gods who have forgotten who they are.
Saw a REALLY bad movie about that once. The plot was great, but the acting and effects made it MST3K worthy,
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Fair point, but one that might seem stronger to someone raised in Celtic lore. For us ignorant Americans the Fomor are pretty darn esoteric -- most modern fantasy that talks about the Fae doesn't talk about the Fomor (Tolkien, Gaiman, Susannah Clarke, etc.).
If I were going to compare Tolkien's Elves to the Fae - which I wouldn't, as they are different in every imaginable way - I would say that the exiled Noldor would be the equivalent to Fomor. They rebelled against the gods, slew their kin (the Kinslayings were unimaginably wicked in Tolkien's universe; Elves simply did not fight each other let alone kill each other), stole the treasured ships of Teleri to sail across the sea (and then burned them, which was also very evil in context) and wage a doomed war on an evil god while becoming pretty nasty themselves. Indeed, while their war against Morgoth was doomed from the beginning, it fell apart earlier than it might have because of their misdeeds and treachery.
By the time of the Lord of the Rings, Galadriel is the last of the Noldor (edit: Well, there were a couple of others come to think of it, but she was the main one that mattered) in Middle-Earth, and she's ancient indeed - probably only Cirdan, the shipwright you see at the end of the movie, is older, since he was among the first elves that awoke in the world. She was one of the better Noldor, but that scene where she considers taking the Ring shows (by WoT) what her ambition was for thousands of years.
Nevertheless, I feel uncomfortable describing any of the Elves as really evil, like some tales suggest the Fomor are, because they were fundamentally opposed to the one true source of evil, Morgoth. There were no really "bad" Elves - there were some Morgoth was able to enthrall and enslave, but no Elf by his own choice ever served Morgoth or his servant Sauron. Even Feanor and his followers were just really deeply misguided (and later bound, against their will, by their oath - and no, that's not a similarity with Fae, any creature in Middle-Earth would have been bound by an oath like that), but still fundamentally "good" and capable of redemption. And heck, if they hadn't rebelled, the Sindar and Dwarves would have been overrun, mankind would have been lost to Morgoth, and the whole history of Middle-Earth wouldn't have been set in motion.
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If I were going to compare Tolkien's Elves to the Fae - which I wouldn't, as they are different in every imaginable way - I would say that the exiled Noldor would be the equivalent to Fomor. They rebelled against the gods, slew their kin (the Kinslayings were unimaginably wicked in Tolkien's universe; Elves simply did not fight each other let alone kill each other), stole the treasured ships of Teleri to sail across the sea (and then burned them, which was also very evil in context) and wage a doomed war on an evil god while becoming pretty nasty themselves. Indeed, while their war against Morgoth was doomed from the beginning, it fell apart earlier than it might have because of their misdeeds and treachery.
By the time of the Lord of the Rings, Galadriel is the last of the Noldor (edit: Well, there were a couple of others come to think of it, but she was the main one that mattered) in Middle-Earth, and she's ancient indeed - probably only Cirdan, the shipwright you see at the end of the movie, is older, since he was among the first elves that awoke in the world. She was one of the better Noldor, but that scene where she considers taking the Ring shows (by WoT) what her ambition was for thousands of years.
Nevertheless, I feel uncomfortable describing any of the Elves as really evil, like some tales suggest the Fomor are, because they were fundamentally opposed to the one true source of evil, Morgoth. There were no really "bad" Elves - there were some Morgoth was able to enthrall and enslave, but no Elf by his own choice ever served Morgoth or his servant Sauron. Even Feanor and his followers were just really deeply misguided (and later bound, against their will, by their oath - and no, that's not a similarity with Fae, any creature in Middle-Earth would have been bound by an oath like that), but still fundamentally "good" and capable of redemption. And heck, if they hadn't rebelled, the Sindar and Dwarves would have been overrun, mankind would have been lost to Morgoth, and the whole history of Middle-Earth wouldn't have been set in motion.
I agree with pretty much everything you said, except about Cirdan. While he is very old, he was almost certainly not one of the the first to awaken. On Tolkien forums they have gone through it and shown that he has parents (cousin to Elwe for example) hence not one of the original elves.
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I agree with pretty much everything you said, except about Cirdan. While he is very old, he was almost certainly not one of the the first to awaken. On Tolkien forums they have gone through it and shown that he has parents (cousin to Elwe for example) hence not one of the original elves.
Wouldn't he still be older than Galadriel though? She is something like third or fourth generation Noldor (daughter of Finarfin?) IRC.
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Yep, he is still older than Galadriel. Cirdan was clearly born before the elves get to Valinar, where as Galadriel was born in Valinar. Cirdan's age is noted in that he has a beard which means that he is in his third cycle of life.
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I agree with pretty much everything you said, except about Cirdan. While he is very old, he was almost certainly not one of the the first to awaken. On Tolkien forums they have gone through it and shown that he has parents (cousin to Elwe for example) hence not one of the original elves.
Ah, I don't get around forums much, so I am unfamiliar with the reference. I was aware he was referred to as kin of Olwe and Elwe, but as far as I was aware, the elves who had first awakened considered themselves related to each other (Elwe and Olwe are brothers, for example, but as far as we know had no parents) even in the absence of parents. There's likely some drafts or other sources that I am unfamiliar with, though.
Either way, as you say, he was really, really damn old, and probably at least remembered Cuivienen, which is kind of like being Cain or Abel if not Adam or Eve.
And yeah, that makes him much older than Galadriel, but I believe we don't know by how much, since I don't believe there is an accurate estimation of the golden age of Valinor or when Galadriel was born in it.
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Ah, I don't get around forums much, so I am unfamiliar with the reference. I was aware he was referred to as kin of Olwe and Elwe, but as far as I was aware, the elves who had first awakened considered themselves related to each other (Elwe and Olwe are brothers, for example, but as far as we know had no parents) even in the absence of parents. There's likely some drafts or other sources that I am unfamiliar with, though.
Either way, as you say, he was really, really damn old, and probably at least remembered Cuivienen, which is kind of like being Cain or Abel if not Adam or Eve.
And yeah, that makes him much older than Galadriel, but I believe we don't know by how much, since I don't believe there is an accurate estimation of the golden age of Valinor or when Galadriel was born in it.
As you say Elwe (Thingol) and Olwe were brothers but Cirdan (Nowe) is only accounted as kin. If they all Awoke at the same time then they would all be brothers. Anyway it is fairly certain that Elwe is not one of the first Elves either.
This reply says it better than I could so
Reposted from http://www.tolkienonline.com/thewhitecouncil/messageview.cfm?catid=27&threadid=54569 is my paraphrase of Tar-Elenion's reasoning concerning why Ingwë, Elwë, Olwë and Finwë are not of 'The Unbegotten', amended to show why Nowë (Círdan) is unlikely to be 'Unbegotten' either.
Although there is no doubt that Círdan is the oldest elf we meet in the LotR, the thread I cited previously (Círdan's Beard )shows that while Círdan may have been born at Cuivienen, he was most probably not one of the original Elves who 'awoke' there.
The 'Unbegotten' (Elves who originally awoke) awoke each with their respective spouse (hence 144 Elves in 72 pairs). Elwë had to wife Melian and she did not awaken at Cuivienen. Elwë also had two brothers Olwë and Elmo, hence he had parents. Círdan was 'akin' to Elwë and Olwë but was their junior (else He would be King of the Teleri) so is likely not of the 'Unbegotten'. He also seems not to have had a spouse. For completeness, Finwë had to wife Míriel. Míriel had a mother name (Serindë ), and hence a mother. Thus Míriel was born, hence Finwë did not 'Awaken'. Ingwë had a sister (Indis or Indis' mother) and hence had parents, thus he was born and not Unbegotten.
http://forums.theonering.com/viewtopic.php?t=57199
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Geek note. In my copy of The Silmarilian Cirdan is mainly referred to as "The Shipwright".
He does not appear in the listed family trees. I don't have my copy of LotR to hand but looking at the last few pages of The Silmarillion is was he who built the boat that carried Frodo away (which is logical, I guess).
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The fomor arent that esoteric: they showed up in illona andrews two years ago, charles de lint before that, and have been hanging around dungeons and dragons for decades. And jims version is a lot closer to the deep ones of lovecraft than the fomor of celtic myth.
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They were also in Shadowrun since 1st ed. In Tir-Na-Nog and Tir Tarengire