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The Dresden Files => DF Spoilers => Topic started by: groinkick on January 31, 2021, 06:37:19 PM
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Listens to Wind, and River shoulders? I know that they are pretty powerful but Drakul could stand up to Mab (per words of Jim), and I don't see them being near her level of power. Mavra said he was having fun.... But he, and the Black Court were there to collect (or consume) wizards. They took some of them for that purpose. So I can't help but wonder why Drakul would allow LTW or River Shoulders to get out alive...
So do you think Drakul allowed them to live, or were those two strong enough to get out alive on their own? I just don't see how if Drakul is as powerful as Jim said they could have survived.
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Or even just paralyse all the wizards with his Will, just like the Lords of the Outer Night did to Harry and his Fellowship in Changes?
I have asked these questions before too. Having thought about it for a while I came to the conclusion that sadly it's Jim's writing that is to blame. Drakul didn't get the entrance he deserved, or was built up to have. There is no logical story reason that Drakul couldn't have locked down all the opponents nor any reason he shouldn't have.
If he had trapped all his foes he could have turned them all, if it was powerful new recruits he was after. If they were in his way why didn't he just kill them? As you say, he is meant to be able to kill Mab so it shouldn't have been an issue to take them out.
Even if you try and say he was just having fun by sparring with them, surely such a viscous monster would have wanted to get some personal kills.
The only thing that makes sense was he was testing something or has use for Harry, LtW and River Shoulders in future.
No, it unfortunately seems that due to the rushed books, the split and perhaps some other reasons Jim just didn't write his best scene. Perhaps he would have wrote something that made more sense if he had written a Drakul scene way back when he wrote Dead Beat. Maybe it would have matched closet to what we have been lead to believe. Drakul just came off a little underwhelming...maybe he could never live up to the hype. Which is kinda crazy considering he certainly was powerful and scary. He took on River, LtW and Harry and wasn't worried at all. When the wardens attacked he disrupted them quickly, crippling Ramirez and possibly killed Chandler.
The other possibility is he was distracted by other events, perhaps stuff to do with time travel and parallel universes or more mundane events and had to leave Chicago.
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Quotes WOJ on Drakul...i think I missed something
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Naaaa, see. Your forgetting Jim's a DnD player. This was the BBEG making a show of things and batting the A team around to show you that he can. He monologues the whole fight basically. He clearly scoffs at the evil overlords list and does what he wants. Plus as Jim has said recently, he's a hit n run kinda guy, he didn't want to get caught up in a stand up fight for too long. Who knows what kinda reinforcements might show up?
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I don't think Drakul is on Mabs level and no he couldn't kill ltw or river shoulders anytime... He is badass but your saying Drakul can kill Odin or Queen Mab or queen Titania or any of the Queens or the Earl King or pretty much anybody that's been mentioned besides archangel in Dresden Files..enlighten us
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You cannot be given enlightenment, you must enlighten yourself... By looking at the Woj section.. I mean, the one on Drakul vs Mab is so old it's been on the main page forever...
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Oh so no proof...gotcha!
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Oh so no proof...gotcha!
you know, I was being facetious.. but yea, just because you won't go look for yourself doesn't mean it doesn't exist. You've been here long enough, there's no reason why you haven't perused the Woj section... Or the reference collection for that matter. But not reading up on Woj when they were nice enough to format and list them for you? Sheer laziness.
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There's no need to make someone sift through broken links like that.
Hmmm. In terms of pure, raw power, several who have appeared or been mentioned in the books could pull it off, though neither side would really "win" as much as "continue to exist." Plus, the sudden absence of Mab would do freaking HIDEOUS things to the earth. But here's who has the necessary horsepower do it:
o Titania--though it would be a coin toss. Almost literally.
o The Mothers (who wouldn't)
o The White Council. As in, ALL the White Council. Every wizard on the planet. And they'd need her Name.
o Drakul.
o Ferrovax.
o The Red Court--again, ALL the Red Court, though their odds wouldn't be good.
o The entire White Court--very, very long odds on that, but if they actually pulled it off, whoever took Mab would effectively control her power.
o Cowl (if the Darkhallow had succeeded).
o A union of the old Elders of the Black Court. They were freaking scary until the Whites arranged to have them hounded down by mortals.
All of that, of course, assumes that Mab is standing there alone, outside of Faerie, and not commanding an entire nation, literally millions and millions and millions of nightmarish creatures of every description. Which she does.
There's a REASON that when Mab said, "Sign these Accords and abide by them," people listened. :)
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There's no need to make someone sift through broken links like that.
Much as this WoJ is clear, the actual canonical text seems to say that it's no longer valid. Ferrovax is very clearly on a different level than Drakul, and Drakul doesn't seem much stronger than a Lord of Outer Night or two.
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There's no need to make someone sift through broken links like that.
eh, fair enough, I'd forgotten about that. Though you found it quick enough lol. Really though, saying there's no proof because they haven't seen it...
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There's no need to make someone sift through broken links like that.
I appreciate the sentiment and the help you have given, but it isn't that hard to look up WOJ. And that one is quite an easy one to find regardless, and it's a fairly well-known one. While it's good to help I don't know that we as a community should encourage laziness and wilful ignorance either. Not that I think you meant to do that either it's merely a possibility created by this situation.
Oh so no proof...gotcha!
I don't know whether you were joking or not but either way I think it's probably best not to subvert the thread all that much. If it was an attempt at humour fair enough, sometimes things don't translate well via writing and not everyone's sense of humour is the same but let's move on and stick to the topic. But if you were deliberately just trying to tease another member of the community whilst also subverting the thread and ignoring established WOJ just because you haven't done your homework - you might just want to reconsider your position. This board is for everyone and humour doesn't always carry well (particularly sarcasm) over the web. Whatever your intentions it might be time to get back on topic and come prepared for good-natured thoughtful and at least semi-researched discussion. I'll leave it at that.
Much as this WoJ is clear, the actual canonical text seems to say that it's no longer valid. Ferrovax is very clearly on a different level than Drakul, and Drakul doesn't seem much stronger than a Lord of Outer Night or two.
I get your point but implication and inference via action aren't quite the same as exposition on the part of the author. I don't remember in the series anywhere it actually says Drakul could take Mab, or even Ferro or almost any of the others bar Titania and the Mothers. And you are right this is an old list. It didn't include Ethniu or Angels or Archangels etc. But just because Drakul isn't necessarily as strong in raw power as Ferrovax doesn't mean he isn't stronger than Mab, or strong enough to kill her. Depending on how Drakul's powers work he might be suited perfectly to taking out Immortals like Mab. Perhaps it's more about critical power, or out-thinking his enemies (although this list is just about who has the horsepower - so clearly he has at least that). Drakul seemed far more dangerous than any of the Lord's of the Outer Night. Harry says he feels stronger than the lot of them, and Drakul seems more dangerous than the Red King. Morgan had the Red King - and he isn't nearly as dangerous as Ebenezar was, and Eb was both afraid and respected the danger of Drakul. But nowhere does it recently outline that Drakul isn't strong enough, so it isn't yet canon that he can't. In fact, the only canon we have on the whole thing is the list itself so that's what we should stick to.
Naaaa, see. Your forgetting Jim's a DnD player. This was the BBEG making a show of things and batting the A team around to show you that he can. He monologues the whole fight basically. He clearly scoffs at the evil overlords list and does what he wants. Plus as Jim has said recently, he's a hit n run kinda guy, he didn't want to get caught up in a stand up fight for too long. Who knows what kinda reinforcements might show up?
Not at all, I consider him as a D&D player/DM all the time! But I suspect you are right. Just because the scene didn't quite work when I read it (and clearly for a few others too), doesn't mean that Jim wasn't trying to show how badass Drakul is. I think you might be bang on about he was just playing with them, it occurred to me the other day in another thread. Yeah the hit n run aspect is intriguing. Perhaps he is just smarter than most villains and doesn't get thrown off schedule by petty fights when the real victory is so much more worth it. But as Marcone would put it, that probably means he isn't so sure of his strength as to just wipe out even relatively minor threats. In fact, I suspect this answers why he didn't use his Will attack. Perhaps, like Vadderung and other such beings, he doesn't rely on such a thing unless he has to. The Lord's of the Outer Night went immediately to their super move and showed their hand. More powerful and dangerous beings seem to keep an ace up their sleeve and use other tactics to defeat their enemies, even enjoy the sport of combat. That's far scarier to watch in some ways. Drakul only went for his Will when he encountered Harry and I doubt it was to do with Harry's danger as a combatant. I suspect it was more to do with Harry being another Starborn and whatever else he may be, and because Drakul (like a few other villains) seems to want to test out Dresden. There is almost a long game around testing Dresden but what it's meant to lead to is unclear. He Who Walks Behind, Cowl, Justin, Drakul...there is definitely a pattern somewhere.
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I appreciate the sentiment and the help you have given, but it isn't that hard to look up WOJ. And that one is quite an easy one to find regardless, and it's a fairly well-known one. While it's good to help I don't know that we as a community should encourage laziness and wilful ignorance either. Not that I think you meant to do that either it's merely a possibility created by this situation.
It's kind of annoying for half of them since you have to copypaste the link to a new tab and remove the /bb/ along with swapping the jimbutcher for paranet since otherwise you just get booted to the front page of jim-butcher.com
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Listens to Wind, and River shoulders? I know that they are pretty powerful but Drakul could stand up to Mab (per words of Jim), and I don't see them being near her level of power. Mavra said he was having fun.... But he, and the Black Court were there to collect (or consume) wizards. They took some of them for that purpose. So I can't help but wonder why Drakul would allow LTW or River Shoulders to get out alive...
So do you think Drakul allowed them to live, or were those two strong enough to get out alive on their own? I just don't see how if Drakul is as powerful as Jim said they could have survived.
I think it is complicated, Drakul is very strong, but so are River Shoulders and LTW, I think there is an element of luck involved also for lack of a better name. LTW said if you can fight Drakul to a draw, that is a win. The element of luck here was Harry's conjuritis, team White Council plus River Shoulders was well on their way to losing until Harry started sneezing and anvils began to fall out of the sky. It was really Mavra that set it up to be a total no win for the team, ignore her and walk away, a huge zombie army of the undead rise up, if they fight especially with the addition of Drakul's muscle, heavy loses will result. Killing LTW and River might have been a couple of cherries on top of the general shit pile, but the point had been made and Team Black Court gained at least two powerful wizards.
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I think it is complicated, Drakul is very strong, but so are River Shoulders and LTW,
That's the thing. By comparison they are not. Raw horsepower (as Jim said) it would take every wizard on the planet to stand up to Mab while Drakul can by himself. So as powerful as LTW is, he's nothing, nothing in comparison to Drakul.
The only thing I could come up with is that Drakul is less effective against some forms of magic, and LTW is good enough to exploit it. Just as River shoulders was able to stop him from teleporting.
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Much as this WoJ is clear, the actual canonical text seems to say that it's no longer valid. Ferrovax is very clearly on a different level than Drakul, and Drakul doesn't seem much stronger than a Lord of Outer Night or two.
Isn't there a microfiction or something where Harry says Drakul is more powerful than all the Lords of Outer night combined? I thought I read that on the forum in the last 2 weeks.
Drakul made one short appearance, and Mavra herself said he was enjoying himself. So he clearly wasn't even trying. I know he has the power, I'm just wondering his reason for allowing them to live.
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From what I understood from woj the black court vampires who survived the stoker apocalypse are the careful ones. They do not take unnecessary risks. They are very strong but they also have very specific weaknesses and you never know especially with wizards or people like Mab or Vadderung.
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Isn't there a microfiction or something where Harry says Drakul is more powerful than all the Lords of Outer night combined? I thought I read that on the forum in the last 2 weeks.
Drakul made one short appearance, and Mavra herself said he was enjoying himself. So he clearly wasn't even trying. I know he has the power, I'm just wondering his reason for allowing them to live.
Like I said, Marva orchestrated the perfect set up, it was a win,win for Team Black Court. I don't think he really was allowing them to live, but Mavra sort of went into a panic when it began to rain iron anvils, so they just left.
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Like I said, Marva orchestrated the perfect set up, it was a win,win for Team Black Court. I don't think he really was allowing them to live, but Mavra sort of went into a panic when it began to rain iron anvils, so they just left.
I am really just forming opinions of course but upon thinking more I think Drakul may have seen this as a sparring match. He killed some of the younger wizards, but that's because he held no respect for them.
I believe he was willing to fight LTW, and River Shoulders more or less on even terms.. He wanted to spar them purely on skill, and skill alone. So he'd have been holding back his power on purpose because it would have been uneven, and therefor not a challenge, or fun. He basically tied a hand behind his back and fought them that way. I think this makes sense for two reasons. 1. It means WOJ are still accurate, and 2. Mavra saying he was enjoying himself jives with a guy playing around with a couple of skillful opponents.
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It's kind of annoying for half of them since you have to copypaste the link to a new tab and remove the /bb/ along with swapping the jimbutcher for paranet since otherwise you just get booted to the front page of jim-butcher.com
There's also this source for finding the older stuff. https://wordof.jim-butcher.com/index.php/home/
Isn't there a microfiction or something where Harry says Drakul is more powerful than all the Lords of Outer night combined? I thought I read that on the forum in the last 2 weeks.
My understanding is it's from BG.
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Well I'm not sold on him holding back. I think he is like Wizard and he can fight for what he plans for. Just like Harry. I think if he plan to kill them he would plan it out. And they live as long as they do because they're smart. Just because you have the power to do something doesn't mean you should because you might leave yourself open for counter-attack. So he got to fight him the way he did to ensure he wasn't defeated and complete his purpose.
I appreciate you posting the info. Very kind. I did try looking for it but I guess my searching skills are not all that great. Your response was a lot better than some other couch Commandos comments who are safe behind the computer. And my comments were just to be flippant. Even though I'm more sarcastic by Nature.
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Is Drakul the original? Is he not dead walking? Would necromancy work on him? Or just his "offspring"? And Ebenezer refers to him as the Beast. So this is outer appearance real? Thoughts?
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Yes, recent Woj implies he's not only the original but a few other monsters throughout history, being older than our current legends about him. Actually found a really interesting theory on Drakul the other day,
https://www.reddit.com/r/FanTheories/comments/8cuspf/dracula_the_once_and_future_count_speculation/
Gonna reread it a few times to see if it fits anything here
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That's the thing. By comparison they are not. Raw horsepower (as Jim said) it would take every wizard on the planet to stand up to Mab while Drakul can by himself. So as powerful as LTW is, he's nothing, nothing in comparison to Drakul.
The only thing I could come up with is that Drakul is less effective against some forms of magic, and LTW is good enough to exploit it. Just as River shoulders was able to stop him from teleporting.
Quite possibly, perhaps Drakul's weaknesses were being exploited. But in saying that...he seemed like he was enjoying himself. Maybe he was being a distraction for something else that was happening that we have yet to see. Or perhaps he doesn't turn wizards and using them for the stars and stones is some other goal. Perhaps part of a ritual for gaining power. I mean, likely Mavra and possibly Drakul have the Word of Kemmler (although I really hope it doesn't end up with Mavra as the big bad betraying her Master...that is so over used and also wouldn't fit with her having no real will).
My understanding is it's from BG.
Indeed. It is exposition on Harry's part but likely enough.
Like I said, Marva orchestrated the perfect set up, it was a win,win for Team Black Court. I don't think he really was allowing them to live, but Mavra sort of went into a panic when it began to rain iron anvils, so they just left.
Just the one anvil from memory. But a well timed one! Not sure that Mavra panicked and left either. She just disappears presumably with the remaining Elders and the bodies of Yoshimo and Wild Bill. I don't think she was afraid of Dresden. More likely there was an unspoken signal and Drakul got his people to leave. They had what they came for.
Well I'm not sold on him holding back. I think he is like Wizard and he can fight for what he plans for. Just like Harry. I think if he plan to kill them he would plan it out. And they live as long as they do because they're smart. Just because you have the power to do something doesn't mean you should because you might leave yourself open for counter-attack. So he got to fight him the way he did to ensure he wasn't defeated and complete his purpose.
I appreciate you posting the info. Very kind. I did try looking for it but I guess my searching skills are not all that great. Your response was a lot better than some other couch Commandos comments who are safe behind the computer. And my comments were just to be flippant. Even though I'm more sarcastic by Nature.
Which part are you not sold on? And I think any of the supernatural threats can fight what they plan for. When it comes to mortal wizards, they are often at their most dangerous when prepared and their least when caught off guard. Vampires don't seem to have that issue as they often rely (if not over-rely) on their physical power and nasty abilities. Mavra has shown she can be very dangerous if prepared, far more so than normal. So I don't think it follows that if Drakul had planned to kill he would have. His goal was stated to be the capture of wizard talents, and he got at least 2 possibly 3. Whether they died or not may not be an issue for a necromancer. Beyond that, I think he is on a schedule like all the big players are. He doesn't waste time with nobodies. But the fact of it is the scene Jim wrote with Drakul just wasn't the best. Perhaps Drakul was too built up, perhaps Jim didn't analyse the scene as much as he could have, perhaps Jim got over it between multiple rewrites and edits. In any case, hopefully we will get better scenes in future.
Fair enough if you're comments were meant to be flippant, as I said sarcasm often doesn't translate well over the internet as writing is a poor medium for such things. Probably just worth being a bit more careful in future. I don't know if I am one of these "couch commandos" you are referring to but I don't think it was particularly risky to call out what I perceived to be poor behaviour. I hope you don't threaten people who call you out or upset you though. That would be crap behaviour. I wasn't having a go at your researching skill, nor was Sibelis. Just the lack of effort came across combined with your admittedly unclear jokes. It's fine to critique people's arguments when they haven't provided evidence or used much logic, but saying another person hasn't got proof when you can't be bothered to look yourself for something quite easy to find is just bait. Sibelis was friendly and told you where to look and you made a joke out of it. Whether you intended to look or not doesn't matter, as you made it seem like you didn't. If you don't wish to be misunderstood, probably best to be clearer in future.
Is Drakul the original? Is he not dead walking? Would necromancy work on him? Or just his "offspring"? And Ebenezer refers to him as the Beast. So this is outer appearance real? Thoughts?
He seems to be the origin of the Black Court...but that doesn't mean he necessarily is the original Black Court Vampire. He has vampiric powers but no one seems to refer to him as a vampire either. It's impossible with so little information to know whether he is actually undead. He is stuck in the body of a mortal, so perhaps he "died" in a sense and came back. But the spiritual monster probably is immortal which wouldn't make him undead. So yeah, necromancy probably wouldn't be able to control him although it may effect him like any other non-undead being. And it has been said it would be possible to control the Black Court Vampires with necromancy (per Jim), Kemmler figured it out. Eb actually referred to Drakul as THE Creature. Real is subjective, but I suspect the being residing in the mortal's body doesn't look much like Drakul at all. Especially if it is made of spiritual energy.
Yes, recent Woj implies he's not only the original but a few other monsters throughout history, being older than our current legends about him. Actually found a really interesting theory on Drakul the other day,
https://www.reddit.com/r/FanTheories/comments/8cuspf/dracula_the_once_and_future_count_speculation/
Gonna reread it a few times to see if it fits anything here
Good theory in how it's set out but it sort of falls apart with the whole "expunged from history brother" bit as there is no other evidence of such a person. Beyond that, Drakul is FAR older than that as he has apparently been around since the dawn of man. I certainly could see an Arthurian connection though. Maybe Mordred is involved.
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falls apart with the whole "expunged from history brother" bit as there is no other evidence of such a person.
very true, I'm looking twice though because I think the whole two brothers thing is a big enough archatype that it's part of the repeating story in the DF. Besides the obvious ones in history, I wonder about the connection between Dresden and his brother and TWC, and his brother Doubting Thomas, better known as the apostle Paul(? Iirc) which I started looking at because of Yeat's the second coming, which is supposed to be loosely based on the antichrist.
If one brother rises and the other falls then Arthur would have had a brother by my reconing.
Just playing with pieces of the puzzle to see where they might fit.
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Quite possibly, perhaps Drakul's weaknesses were being exploited. But in saying that...he seemed like he was enjoying himself. Maybe he was being a distraction for something else that was happening that we have yet to see. Or perhaps he doesn't turn wizards and using them for the stars and stones is some other goal. Perhaps part of a ritual for gaining power. I mean, likely Mavra and possibly Drakul have the Word of Kemmler (although I really hope it doesn't end up with Mavra as the big bad betraying her Master...that is so over used and also wouldn't fit with her having no real will).
I believe that Mavra does have the Word of Kemmler, Harry gave it to her at the end of Dead Beat because she was going to black mail Murphy. He also warned her not to try to get to him though his mortal friends again, that he also had read the book and since he did raise Sue, understood it, and knew how to use it.
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I believe that Mavra does have the Word of Kemmler, Harry gave it to her at the end of Dead Beat because she was going to black mail Murphy. He also warned her not to try to get to him though his mortal friends again, that he also had read the book and since he did raise Sue, understood it, and knew how to use it.
Note however that he relied upon Lasciel's Shadow (photographic memory) to read the book for him.
We don't know how much of that info he retains. He almost-certainly no longer remembers Ghoul (iirc that's Sumerian) as he failed to recognize/understand it in the Deeps after Lash takes the psychic assault for him. By inference, he no longer remembers Etruscan (Whamp formal tongue).
I suspect he can reanimate animals as zombies -- he did that magic himself (even if the Shadow tutored him); dunno about human zombies, it may be different-enough that he can't (not to mention that'd violate the Laws).
But all the other stuff he got from the Shadow? I don't recall that we've seen any of it since the Deeps (only the music he played at the end of DB, and that just the once). In particular, we don't know if he still knows any of the rest of the Word of Kemmler. Per the text, Harry and the Shadow discussed it for "an hour or more," but that wouldn't be enough to convey the entirety of the book (I presume Harry didn't revisit the BigBadBook -- as taught by the Shadow of a Fallen Angel -- after that night).
Details of the Darkhallow, the generalities of how to use necromancy against BCV's, how to raise Sue, and the pain-relief practice. That's the specifics that he himself consciously worked with in his own mind, and presumably therefore still knows.
We know from the not-speaking-Ghoul scene that SOME of the info is gone; we know from Harry using the pain-relief that stuff he actually practiced (as his own act of will) he still has.
I think for the rest of it, it will depend on what Jim wants or needs later in the series. I suspect there will be some issues with Bonea, what she knows, how much of her mom is in her, etc.
And -- as I have WAG'ed before -- I think it's entirely possible (bordering on probable) that although "Lash" is gone, Lasciel's Shadow still lurks within Harry.
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Note however that he relied upon Lasciel's Shadow (photographic memory) to read the book for him.
We don't know how much of that info he retains. He almost-certainly no longer remembers Ghoul (iirc that's Sumerian) as he failed to recognize/understand it in the Deeps after Lash takes the psychic assault for him. By inference, he no longer remembers Etruscan (Whamp formal tongue).
You are talking about two different things here in my opinion. Kemmler's book is a how to raise the dead book, Lasciel translated it for Harry, and he was able to raise Sue. Since Harry is very good a learning magic, it is my belief that he will remember the magic required. In the second case we are talking learning a language, something Harry admits to not being very good at, case in point, his Latin. There are things we learn to do from books that have been translated from another language. We learn the information very well though we may never be able to speak the original language the book was written in. The reverse can also be true, good at learning the language but not so good at learning the subject being written about.
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You are talking about two different things here in my opinion...
This is a reasonable point. But it doesn't speak to my key issue, which is that Harry still retains some of what he learned from Lash and/or the Shadow, but not all of it; and any given bit of knowledge may or may not still be available to Harry.
Jim may have this issue thoroughly worked-out, over in his writer's notes. Or he may be winging it, with various "Learned from Lash" moments that he reserves the right to discover he needs, as the series evolves.
I don't think we, the readers, have enough info to discern the pattern definitively; nor if Jim has no pattern, and is just winging it.
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This is a reasonable point. But it doesn't speak to my key issue, which is that Harry still retains some of what he learned from Lash and/or the Shadow, but not all of it; and any given bit of knowledge may or may not still be available to Harry.
I still think the chance is greater that he retained all of the Word. It isn't like Harry didn't already have existing talent, powerful talent, and as a star born to boot, I think he does retain all of the Word.. And knows how to use it. Consider this when Lash translated the Word for Harry, she wasn't dealing with a blank slate like she was when she translated Ghoul for him. Harry would have already understood all of the concepts, most likely knew them already save for the forbidden bits.
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I still think the chance is greater that he retained all of the Word. It isn't like Harry didn't already have existing talent, powerful talent, and as a star born to boot, I think he does retain all of the Word.. And knows how to use it. Consider this when Lash translated the Word for Harry, she wasn't dealing with a blank slate like she was when she translated Ghoul for him. Harry would have already understood all of the concepts, most likely knew them already save for the forbidden bits.
It depends how complex and specific the necromantic/ectomantic/etc arts are, and how much they overlap other branches of magic. Certainly EvilBob took Harry completely by surprise; the spell sort of "crept up" on Harry, and he didn't recognize it; Harry does recognize most magic, had (for example) been able to detect Entropy Curses as they approached, even (to an extent) manipulate them.
I think the term "the True Art" was used, implying a scope to Necromancy that Harry's training won't have covered.
I go back to the text, where Harry and the Shadow had about "an hour" (subjectively) to discuss the entirety of TWoK.
I don't think that's enough: just discussing the Darkhallow, ways and means to disrupt it, the risks and threats, etc... the scope of that threat is save-thousands-of-lives / stop-a-dark-god level of discussion, and you just don't cut corners with that sort of thing! So, a full tactical/strategic briefing. I'm pretty sure that's most of the hour, right there.
Because it was in German, needing Lash's translation, there's not really any chance Harry "retained" anything she didn't discuss with him.
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It depends how complex and specific the necromantic/ectomantic/etc arts are, and how much they overlap other branches of magic. Certainly EvilBob took Harry completely by surprise; the spell sort of "crept up" on Harry, and he didn't recognize it; Harry does recognize most magic, had (for example) been able to detect Entropy Curses as they approached, even (to an extent) manipulate them.
I don't think it is all that significant that "Evil Bob" would take Harry by surprise. When Justin stole him, Harry was still a boy, he wasn't allowed around Bob all that much, and by the time he came into Harry's hands he had shut that part of himself off. In point of fact Harry was mostly ignorant about Bob when he was in Kemmler's hands, except that he had once belonged to Kemmler.
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I still think the chance is greater that he retained all of the Word. It isn't like Harry didn't already have existing talent, powerful talent, and as a star born to boot, I think he does retain all of the Word.. And knows how to use it. Consider this when Lash translated the Word for Harry, she wasn't dealing with a blank slate like she was when she translated Ghoul for him. Harry would have already understood all of the concepts, most likely knew them already save for the forbidden bits.
memorizing a book is HARD, and takes time... this is likely one of those things if you do not have EVERYTHING right to the nth degree it can go boom on you. If, say, someone hits you with a staff. Or that circle they used on the Archive. Harry was in awe of that one.. but knew how to break it.
I think he retains a lot, but likely not enough to DO it. Maybe if someone who knew ALMOST everything read it thru once they could do it. It would fill in gaps. But Harry is not that person.
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memorizing a book is HARD, and takes time... this is likely one of those things if you do not have EVERYTHING right to the nth degree it can go boom on you. If, say, someone hits you with a staff. Or that circle they used on the Archive. Harry was in awe of that one.. but knew how to break it.
I don't think Harry needed to memorize it, as a wizard he no doubt already knows most of the principles, he is just forbidden to do them. It is like if you understand calculus then read a book on calculus, you don't have to memorize the book to be able to do the calculus that is written in it.
I think he retains a lot, but likely not enough to DO it. Maybe if someone who knew ALMOST everything read it thru once they could do it. It would fill in gaps. But Harry is not that person.
Not so sure about that, Harry has shown that he learns very quickly when motivated.
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... I don't think Harry needed to memorize it, as a wizard he no doubt already knows most of the principles, he is just forbidden to do them...
I don't think necromancy is "just another branch of magic" that works on the same principles as other branches. Kemmlerites call it "the True Art," with the implication that it's different from other magical arts (that may just be them being nutjob-fanatics, of course).
But I keep going back to how Harry has repeatedly been able to "feel" magic. At SPLATTERCON!!!, when the lights went out, Harry could feel a source of magic, and navigated to the Hammerhands-summoning. In Blood Rites, Harry can feel Entropy Curses nearby, and even interact with them, a bit. He can feel ley-lines. Those aren't the only instances, either.
And yet, Evil Bob completely blindsides Harry, who (uncharacteristically) doesn't "feel" that magic.
I conclude there is something fundamentally different about that "style" of magic.
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I don't think Harry needed to memorize it, as a wizard he no doubt already knows most of the principles, he is just forbidden to do them. It is like if you understand calculus then read a book on calculus, you don't have to memorize the book to be able to do the calculus that is written in it.
Knowing first year calc is not going to get you higher differentials quickly. This is the highest level of the stuff. Getting it 95% right might get you 100% dead.
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Evil Bob got the drop on Harry because Harry trusted him. He wouldn't have been as nonchalant about a different spirit.
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Evil Bob got the drop on Harry because Harry trusted him. He wouldn't have been as nonchalant about a different spirit.
Because Harry trusted Bob, and he had no idea as to how evil the spirit was when he was in Kemmler's possession. Actually I don't think "Evil Bob" is a proper name for him, the spirit only
became "Bob" when Harry named him. Bob never explained to Harry how evil his former self was, he tried to warn him when Harry wanted information, but Harry insisted. Then when the spirit nearly killed him, Harry gave Bob strict orders to never bring that side of him forth again. It all frightened Bob, both his evil side and the fact he almost killed his good master, so he separated him from himself to the point where another entity was in effect born, who we now know as Evil Bob.
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... Actually I don't think "Evil Bob" is a proper name for him, the spirit only ...
"Old Blue Eyes" it is, then!
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"Old Blue Eyes" it is, then!
That will work.. ;)
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That will work.. ;)
That whole villain-POV arrogance... "I did it my way" &c.
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That whole villain-POV arrogance... "I did it my way" &c.
Ain't it the truth.... ::)