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The Dresden Files => DF Spoilers => Topic started by: groinkick on June 28, 2021, 06:52:09 AM
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he took up Thorned? I ask because Lasciel really didn't seem to buff him up that much. Same for her next host... Marcone on the other hand who never showed any magical talent was out doing crazy magic we've never seen Harry do.
If Thorned could make Marcone that good, I have to imagine that Harry, a real wizard with a lot of horsepower would be an absolute nightmare. Harry assumed the previous host was around one to two hundred years more advanced, but Marcone was doing advanced stuff with not to long of training. I think that Harry would grow in months what would take him decades to learn otherwise. After say 5 years I just can't help but think he'd be extremely powerful, and talented, doing magic that he hadn't even imagined.
What do you think?
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he took up Thorned? I ask because Lasciel really didn't seem to buff him up that much.
One of her opening offers was to make him the single best human water mage on the planet, don't confuse Harry turning down her offers for her having nothing to offer.
Same for her next host...
You mean the host pulling out displays of power and precision that Harry said would be impressive even by senior council standards? That host?
Marcone on the other hand who never showed any magical talent was out doing crazy magic we've never seen Harry do.
If Thorned could make Marcone that good, I have to imagine that Harry, a real wizard with a lot of horsepower would be an absolute nightmare. Harry assumed the previous host was around one to two hundred years more advanced, but Marcone was doing advanced stuff with not to long of training. I think that Harry would grow in months what would take him decades to learn otherwise. After say 5 years I just can't help but think he'd be extremely powerful, and talented, doing magic that he hadn't even imagined.
What do you think?
Yes Thorned and Harry would be a nightmare combo (he's also Jim's second pick for a coin to stick Harry with after Lasciel).
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Yes Thorned and Harry would be a nightmare combo (he's also Jim's second pick for a coin to stick Harry with after Lasciel).
While he might like all the magical knowledge and maybe the power, as with Lasciel, in the end Harry is his own man and since Namshiel isn't likely to fall in love with him like Lasciel, it would end badly for him.. It still might end badly for Marcone.
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he took up Thorned? I ask because Lasciel really didn't seem to buff him up that much. Same for her next host...
Lash the shadow didn't buff Harry that much because her whole game was 'the first taste is free' to convince him to take up the coin for more.
She did a lot for Hannah in the abilities she provided for fighting the Fomor and getting through the gate of fire. She was still throwing around a lot of power in the vault fight; they only lost that because the fallen and the host both let their anger get the best of them.
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Lash the shadow didn't buff Harry that much because her whole game was 'the first taste is free' to convince him to take up the coin for more.
She did a lot for Hannah in the abilities she provided for fighting the Fomor and getting through the gate of fire. She was still throwing around a lot of power in the vault fight; they only lost that because the fallen and the host both let their anger get the best of them.
Yes, Butters saved the day there when he woke Harry to the fact that "Shelia" was just an illusion. That put him on to the shadow in his head, and then when Murphy further pointed out to him that seemed more violent than he needed to be, he realized how addictive the use of Hell Fire was and how much influence Lasciel was gaining over him. Once he realized that, it was game over, he could resist her with the force of his will because he now understood what he was fighting.
I doubt that Hannah had that kind of outside help to begin with, also I have the feeling that she willingly took up the coin as a power play. Yes, Harry picked up the coin willingly, but in order to save little Harry [yeah, I know he could have done it differently,] not to gain power.
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One of her opening offers was to make him the single best human water mage on the planet, don't confuse Harry turning down her offers for her having nothing to offer.
Maybe she could have, or maybe she was lying to Harry. He admits picking up the Coin because of the power, she may have been playing to that.
You mean the host pulling out displays of power and precision that Harry said would be impressive even by senior council standards? That host?
Jim said that Hannah wasn't a wizard because all she could use was fire, but she was very good at it. Lasiel improved on what she was good at, but Hannah didn't display much else. Marcone on the other hand had absolutely no magical talent and Thorned turned him into someone who could use advanced magic that Harry hasn't displayed (teleportation, molecular manipulation)
Yes Thorned and Harry would be a nightmare combo (he's also Jim's second pick for a coin to stick Harry with after Lasciel).
I'm not saying Lasciel wouldn't have made Harry more dangerous, I'm just looking at what she did to Hannah's abilities vs what Thorned did for Marcone's. Lasciel improved Hannah's power while Thorned apparently gave Marcone abilities he never even had, and at a very high level. Lasciel may have brought other weapons to the table for Harry, but from what I can tell, pure wizard power would come from Thorned.
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But maybe Marcone just negotiated better than Hannah. Also Namshiel is the magic specialist.
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I doubt that Hannah had that kind of outside help to begin with, also I have the feeling that she willingly took up the coin as a power play. Yes, Harry picked up the coin willingly, but in order to save little Harry [yeah, I know he could have done it differently,] not to gain power.
More likely she took up the coin to have a home again after Harry took out her old one.
Maybe she could have, or maybe she was lying to Harry. He admits picking up the Coin because of the power, she may have been playing to that.
She's be a poor temptress if her first lure blatantly had a hook sticking out of it, Harry lays out that she's trying to get him dependent which means getting him hooked on the no strings attached bits first.
Jim said that Hannah wasn't a wizard because all she could use was fire, but she was very good at it. Lasiel improved on what she was good at, but Hannah didn't display much else. Marcone on the other hand had absolutely no magical talent and Thorned turned him into someone who could use advanced magic that Harry hasn't displayed (teleportation, molecular manipulation)
I should note that Lasciel only had a few weeks to work and get Hannah into Harry-fighting shape (and into the mindset to fry a potentially innocent man, though Harry's abysmal charisma carried the day on that front) while Namshiel had years to make Marcone into an all-rounder.
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Jim said that Hannah wasn't a wizard because all she could use was fire, but she was very good at it. Lasiel improved on what she was good at, but Hannah didn't display much else. Marcone on the other hand had absolutely no magical talent and Thorned turned him into someone who could use advanced magic that Harry hasn't displayed (teleportation, molecular manipulation)
But Marcone has absolutely no understanding about magic, so he is very clumsy at it as Harry pointed out. I think it may turn out for Marcone like being a Holy Knight was for Murphy, in the end she hated being an angel's sock puppet, even when his agenda matched hers as it did at C.I. I can see the same thing happen to Marcone, and at some point I can see him rejecting the coin.. Who knows Jim may go back to one of his earlier ideas, Marcone, Holy Knight.. Now wouldn't that be a shock.
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But Marcone has absolutely no understanding about magic, so he is very clumsy at it as Harry pointed out. I think it may turn out for Marcone like being a Holy Knight was for Murphy, in the end she hated being an angel's sock puppet, even when his agenda matched hers as it did at C.I. I can see the same thing happen to Marcone, and at some point I can see him rejecting the coin.. Who knows Jim may go back to one of his earlier ideas, Marcone, Holy Knight.. Now wouldn't that be a shock.
Marcone won’t reject the coin. From a story perspective it is needed to keep Marcone in the story on an equal level with Harry. Jim removed his old friend to isolate him more and make him more vulnerable to the influence of the coin. Marcone will become more and more isolated depending on Namshiel.
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Marcone won’t reject the coin. From a story perspective it is needed to keep Marcone in the story on an equal level with Harry. Jim removed his old friend to isolate him more and make him more vulnerable to the influence of the coin. Marcone will become more and more isolated depending on Namshiel.
I don't see that, isolated, yes, but dependent? No, that isn't in Marcone's nature.. Who knows?
He maybe going for his own version of twisted revenge. After all Nic survives, diminished for the
the moment to be sure, but he survives. Marcone hasn't forgotten when they did to him on the island back in Small Favor.
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I don't see that, isolated, yes, but dependent? No, that isn't in Marcone's nature.. Who knows?
He maybe going for his own version of twisted revenge. After all Nic survives, diminished for the
the moment to be sure, but he survives. Marcone hasn't forgotten when they did to him on the island back in Small Favor.
Isolated means nobody to counteract Namshiel’s continuous influence. The lesson Marcone took from smal favor is that he needs more power. Marcone is evil after all and that is what evil learns. Marcone wants revenge sure and when he gets it he will hand the coins to his henchmen or he will hoard them for just in case. Until Namshiel convinces him they are needed.
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I can see the same thing happen to Marcone, and at some point I can see him rejecting the coin.. Who knows Jim may go back to one of his earlier ideas, Marcone, Holy Knight.. Now wouldn't that be a shock.
I figure that's for the Mirrorverse.
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I think Marcone was that good because there was all that free magic in the air. Otherwise, he wouldn't have the juice to throw around big magic.
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I think Marcone was that good because there was all that free magic in the air. Otherwise, he wouldn't have the juice to throw around big magic.
Titania had dispelled that juice about half a dozen chapters before he started slinging spells.
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Consider this: Marcone is simply the conduit for Namshiel. No inherent magical ability. Like when Bob takes over Mister or Butters gave him free reign to help out. Here's another thought: Lash would say something to the extent that she could show Harry how to call the coin or something or other magic spell. Without her, would he have been able to do it? Or, will Marcone retain the magical abilities conveyed to him once Namshiel has been removed (if)? So...no coin,no magic. Just a thought.
Cheers---Brien
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Consider this: Marcone is simply the conduit for Namshiel. No inherent magical ability. Like when Bob takes over Mister or Butters gave him free reign to help out. Here's another thought: Lash would say something to the extent that she could show Harry how to call the coin or something or other magic spell. Without her, would he have been able to do it? Or, will Marcone retain the magical abilities conveyed to him once Namshiel has been removed (if)? So...no coin,no magic. Just a thought.
Cheers---Brien
I think he'd keep most of the knowledge (like Harry with the guitar) but he'd be severely limited as far as strength. He could still do epic rituals that he'd learned from Namshiel but he wouldn't have the magic reserves to start throwing teleport spams around.
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I think he'd keep most of the knowledge (like Harry with the guitar) but he'd be severely limited as far as strength. He could still do epic rituals that he'd learned from Namshiel but he wouldn't have the magic reserves to start throwing teleport spams around.
You gotta have talent/power, there is no evidence that Marcone had that before now..
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You gotta have talent/power, there is no evidence that Marcone had that before now..
Maybe he had talent but no power. That would be relatively easy to fix.
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I mean we know that there are ways to increase ones magical ability.
It just depends on how squeamish Johnny boy is feeling.
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I mean we know that there are ways to increase ones magical ability.
It just depends on how squeamish Johnny boy is feeling.
Marcone is willing to do whatever it takes to achieve a goal. Would not be shocked if he's the next one to attempt a Dark Hallow, and Knight of the Cross Dresden will take him out. The clash of the Sword, with the Fallen, and the Dark Hallow will fracture space, and time.
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Marcone is willing to do whatever it takes to achieve a goal. Would not be shocked if he's the next one to attempt a Dark Hallow, and Knight of the Cross Dresden will take him out. The clash of the Sword, with the Fallen, and the Dark Hallow will fracture space, and time.
Namshiel would probably be rather conflicted about that. On the one hand, host evilly killing a bunch of people is the sort of corrupt-your-human they're supposed to groove on, and (based on DM, if that wasn't another thing the Church has wrong) maybe allow him to run more of his own power through an increasingly corrupted host. On the other hand, is any Fallen going to want his host to gain that much personal power - perhaps enough to be a peer of the Fallen rather than a vessel for them?
And what's the use of corrupting souls if they gain immortality and Hell can't claim them?
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Namshiel would probably be rather conflicted about that. On the one hand, host evilly killing a bunch of people is the sort of corrupt-your-human they're supposed to groove on, and (based on DM, if that wasn't another thing the Church has wrong) maybe allow him to run more of his own power through an increasingly corrupted host. On the other hand, is any Fallen going to want his host to gain that much personal power - perhaps enough to be a peer of the Fallen rather than a vessel for them?
And what's the use of corrupting souls if they gain immortality and Hell can't claim them?
Nothing. The fallen are all about corrupting souls. They don’t want the host to be too powerful that it looses free will and maybe get intellectus and understands what the fallen are really about or does not need the coin anymore because what they offer is mostly inferior to what real godhood offers. They want the host dependent or enslaved.
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Nothing. The fallen are all about corrupting souls. They don’t want the host to be too powerful that it looses free will and maybe get intellectus and understands what the fallen are really about or does not need the coin anymore because what they offer is mostly inferior to what real godhood offers. They want the host dependent or enslaved.
Exactly, and in the end, even if it is a nice "partnership" like Andruiel and Nic, Marcone isn't going to go for that, no matter how much power he gets from it. He will suffer..
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While he might like all the magical knowledge and maybe the power, as with Lasciel, in the end Harry is his own man and since Namshiel isn't likely to fall in love with him like Lasciel, it would end badly for him.. It still might end badly for Marcone.
I think you've missed the point of the question Mira. It's not whether Harry would take up Namshiel's Coin. It's IF Harry took up Namshiel's Coin, could any of the Senior Council (current members) deal with him? The preposition assumes Harry has already taken up the Coin in this hypothetical scenario.
You gotta have talent/power, there is no evidence that Marcone had that before now..
I don't know about no evidence. Maybe not strong evidence but there are plenty of hints that Marcone is more than merely vanilla. Often it's couched in terms of "He produced a knife so quickly as if by magic" type of thing. Not to mention his ability to get very high-level magical connections like Monoc Security, and he believed from the first time we met him that Harry was a genuine wizard. I wouldn't be surprised if he was a low-to-mid level practitioner and kept his magic well hidden. He'd hardly be the only one, and certainly not the first. It would help to explain his meteoric rise in the criminal underworld and his connections to magical beings, not to mention how he progressed to such advanced magic so quickly. It's even discussed early on with the Denarians how they can make even a low level talent into something dangerous given time. I suspect Marcone might not have even been that low.
Consider this: Marcone is simply the conduit for Namshiel. No inherent magical ability. Like when Bob takes over Mister or Butters gave him free reign to help out. Here's another thought: Lash would say something to the extent that she could show Harry how to call the coin or something or other magic spell. Without her, would he have been able to do it? Or, will Marcone retain the magical abilities conveyed to him once Namshiel has been removed (if)? So...no coin,no magic. Just a thought.
Cheers---Brien
Don't forget that all mortals actually have the capacity to do magic. It's just harder for some than others. Harry is a major talent. But most of people would be very, very minor. Marcone probably is a low-to-mid level talent. Maybe even latent talent. It's not as simple as no Coin, no magic. Simply because according to the Knights of the Cross there is no way to give up the Coin and be truly free of it without giving up your magic as well. Not to mention not that many give up the Coins in the first place. Most die and are replaced.
Titania had dispelled that juice about half a dozen chapters before he started slinging spells.
Good pick up, and I am glad someone pointed it out.
Marcone won’t reject the coin. From a story perspective it is needed to keep Marcone in the story on an equal level with Harry. Jim removed his old friend to isolate him more and make him more vulnerable to the influence of the coin. Marcone will become more and more isolated depending on Namshiel.
I think you're probably onto something here. Yes, he needed a boost to keep up with Harry. But isolation from Hendricks really creates problems for someone like Marcone who has next to no one he can rely on. Namshiel is in a very good position. This might be a partnership of centuries (as many of the Knights are) assuming the world doesn't end before that.
he took up Thorned? I ask because Lasciel really didn't seem to buff him up that much. Same for her next host... Marcone on the other hand who never showed any magical talent was out doing crazy magic we've never seen Harry do.
If Thorned could make Marcone that good, I have to imagine that Harry, a real wizard with a lot of horsepower would be an absolute nightmare. Harry assumed the previous host was around one to two hundred years more advanced, but Marcone was doing advanced stuff with not to long of training. I think that Harry would grow in months what would take him decades to learn otherwise. After say 5 years I just can't help but think he'd be extremely powerful, and talented, doing magic that he hadn't even imagined.
What do you think?
Yes, don't forget it's not all about strength. Eb has the Blackstaff (and probably other hidden things). I am not saying they can't be beaten but those guys are generally the strongest, most knowledgeable and connected wizards on the planet. They have spent centuries honing their skills and nurturing their talents, and building their power set. Centuries of doing what Harry is doing. They have plenty of deeds to their names as well. Much of what makes wizards dangerous is they can take on just about anything with enough time and knowledge. They often are fighting outside their weight class.
Harry would be formidable, definitely. And against the less combat inclined Senior Council members like Ancient Mai or Martha Liberty he would have more of a chance. But LtW made a Naagloshii turn tail. Ebenezar redirected energy from a god weapon, and has caused more destruction than most wizards ever have. Who knows what feats the Merlin (Langtry) and The Gatekeeper have done? But I am sure they are incredibly dangerous. Not undefeatable of course. But Harry (even with Namshiel) would need to bring his A-game I suspect.
I also think that others have raised a good point about control. Namshiel probably only feeds enough information to it's host to get what it needs. If giving the host more knowledge made hit too powerful it would risk the host defying it. Namshiel might want to run the show, might not. But it would want either a pliable host with knowledge or a if Namshiel had a more stubborn host like Harry I suspect it would be a bit more careful about what knowledge it gave.
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I think you've missed the point of the question Mira. It's not whether Harry would take up Namshiel's Coin. It's IF Harry took up Namshiel's Coin, could any of the Senior Council (current members) deal with him? The preposition assumes Harry has already taken up the Coin in this hypothetical scenario.
Oh I think he could handle them with Namshiel's help, heck he could have handled them with Lasciel's help. However there is a price to be paid for that, and Harry isn't willing to pay it.
I don't know about no evidence. Maybe not strong evidence but there are plenty of hints that Marcone is more than merely vanilla. Often it's couched in terms of "He produced a knife so quickly as if by magic" type of thing. Not to mention his ability to get very high-level magical connections like Monoc Security, and he believed from the first time we met him that Harry was a genuine wizard. I wouldn't be surprised if he was a low-to-mid level practitioner and kept his magic well hidden. He'd hardly be the only one, and certainly not the first. It would help to explain his meteoric rise in the criminal underworld and his connections to magical beings, not to mention how he progressed to such advanced magic so quickly. It's even discussed early on with the Denarians how they can make even a low level talent into something dangerous given time. I suspect Marcone might not have even been that low.
That doesn't mean he has magical talent, it merely means it is to both their advantages to work together. Yes, power corrupts, and Denarians corrupt their hosts, that is a given, it isn't that Marcone won't be more dangerous now, he is... However Marcone likes to run the show and manipulate, now he will have to dance to Namshiel's tune, don't think he will always be happy doing that.
Don't forget that all mortals actually have the capacity to do magic. It's just harder for some than others. Harry is a major talent. But most of people would be very, very minor. Marcone probably is a low-to-mid level talent. Maybe even latent talent. It's not as simple as no Coin, no magic. Simply because according to the Knights of the Cross there is no way to give up the Coin and be truly free of it without giving up your magic as well. Not to mention not that many give up the Coins in the first place. Most die and are replaced.
That was Michael's theory when he was trying to help Harry. It isn't a rule, Harry never accepted the coin, resisted and eventually changed and rejected the Shadow in his head. That had never happened before, it had more to do with him being a star born than a magical talent I think. There is some mild magical talent, and then there is talent.. There is a difference, Butters with instruction from Harry could do a magical circle to protect himself in Dead Beat, that is one thing.. Real talent manifests itself early, it is real power that usually corrupts into warlockhood unless guided. So Marcone may have magical talent on the level of Butters, but with a coin he'd never progress beyond it.
think you're probably onto something here. Yes, he needed a boost to keep up with Harry. But isolation from Hendricks really creates problems for someone like Marcone who has next to no one he can rely on. Namshiel is in a very good position. This might be a partnership of centuries (as many of the Knights are) assuming the world doesn't end before that.
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But Marcone was in charge of Hendricks, it was no partnership.. Namshiel is different, and he will use Marcone more than you think, not the other way around.
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Back to the comments regarding how Thorned provided more power to Marcone than Lashiel did to Ascher. It was my understanding that Lashiel was only bonded with Ascher for only a couple of weeks tops. Wasn't Thorned with Marcone for at least a year, closer to 2+ if I remember my timeline correctly before we saw the results of that partnership? I don't think we can have a proper comparison between which of the two fallen would have powered Dresden up more based on the two examples we have.
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Back to the comments regarding how Thorned provided more power to Marcone than Lashiel did to Ascher. It was my understanding that Lashiel was only bonded with Ascher for only a couple of weeks tops. Wasn't Thorned with Marcone for at least a year, closer to 2+ if I remember my timeline correctly before we saw the results of that partnership? I don't think we can have a proper comparison between which of the two fallen would have powered Dresden up more based on the two examples we have.
Also "magic" seems to be the specialty of Namshiel, it is also hinted that Thorny, his host was a wizard to begin with. Lasciel had other talents, namely seduction, she didn't make Harry's magic any stronger per say, save perhaps hell fire, she helped him to understand and speak languages, and she had knowledge about just about everything, which Harry tapped, at the same time that seduced him and fed his anger,which in turn fed the hell fire and his power.
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Marcone won’t reject the coin. From a story perspective it is needed to keep Marcone in the story on an equal level with Harry. Jim removed his old friend to isolate him more and make him more vulnerable to the influence of the coin. Marcone will become more and more isolated depending on Namshiel.
Good point. Without Hendricks keeping an eye on Marcone like Harry's friends did; how long before Thorny gets his hooks deeper in Marcone?