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The Dresden Files => DF Spoilers => Topic started by: ClintACK on July 27, 2020, 09:40:13 PM
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We've seen Harry as an unreliable narrator before -- in Small Favor when Mab messed with his mind and his memory, and in Changes when he omitted significant events that had been wiped from his memory, and in another way in Skin Game to keep us in the dark about his clever scheme.
What if Harry is horribly wrong about both the Svartalves and the White Court, maybe even about Thomas?
We've seen Thomas keep secrets and manipulate Harry before to a lesser degree, like in Backup (for good reasons) and in White Night (less so). Could all of the scenes about Justine being pregnant and Thomas worrying about being a father *all* be a manipulation to get Harry acting on instinct?
If Harry had come out of the apartment (after watching Svartalves terrorizing Maggie) and started a fight... or if he'd tried to rescue Thomas... either would have constituted Mab's Winter Knight blatantly shredding the Accords within the first hour of the truce for the Peace Talks. It would have been a blow to Mab almost as serious as being kicked through several walls by Ethniu.
And we see Lara throwing the sex-mojo-whammy at Harry multiple times. It doesn't work to sex-whammy him, but it certainly does change the subject when he's asking uncomfortable questions about what's going on.
Big picture: the local Powers of the Accords are getting together for a meeting to discuss dealing with the Fomor, and Harry spends the whole book dealing with a prison break that could blow up the Accords and lead to millions of innocent deaths. It's sort-of like him to get obsessed with saving family, but it's unusual for him to so completely lose the big-picture plot. How sure are we that he hasn't been mind-whammied?
Could Mab have done it to him again -- perhaps as Lara's first favor? (If she just made him extra vulnerable to Lara's influence, it would explain why she needed to so graphically warn Lara against feeding on Harry, in their first scene.)
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Wrong how? That they're trustworthy?
For Thomas to be untrustworthy, he'd need to have WHAMMIED Harry at some point. Doesn't appear to have happened.
For Lara to be untrustworthy, she'd have to be Lara. Note: I don't think she's trustworthy, I think she wants the last male of the family available for pumping numbers after the Raith deeps.
For the Svartalves, they'd have to not keep bargains.
That said, Austri was Harry's poker buddy and their kids played together. If there was any effort to remove Harry from their property, it would violate guest right. If you wanted to induce him to break it, going after his brother is a good idea- and Austri's the one that would balk.
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Lara may be dirty and she was draining Thomas rather than feeding him. Who knows? Her first favor might have been getting Mab to shield Justine from the babies demon. Maybe she wanted Thomas to die on the island and was pissed because Harry put him in a cell and saved his life. This book is such a hot mess it's hard to decide. Do we know what her first favor was?
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For the Svartalves, Eb's not saying that they don't keep their bargains. He's saying that they are predatory monsters and that it's horrifying that Harry is raising his daughter among them.
Harry expresses his view in this book as: "I like the svartalves. They're good people."
If all you knew about Svartalves was what we read in "B is for Bigfoot" -- which one would you agree with, Harry or Eb? How about when you see Mouse in full-on Temple Guardian mode with all the special effects fighting to keep the svartalves away from Maggie?
For Thomas, Harry being wrong just requires Thomas to have done the math and decided that Justine and the Baby are important enough to betray Harry. Maybe not enough to kill him -- just set him up and count on him being smart enough or strong enough to survive the fallout.
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We've seen Thomas keep secrets and manipulate Harry before to a lesser degree, like in Backup (for good reasons) and in White Night (less so).
Also Blood Rites.
I've wondered if Eb was right about everything ever since someone posted that Eb should have better explained to Harry why he hated WCVs so much. It reminded me of arguments about Harry should have better explained to Kim Delaney and Susan the dangers of the greater circle and the vampire party.
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Oh, I think he is. I think Harry doesn't yet appreciate the danger of the White Court. I also think Eb is made to look crazy in order to direct the readers into questioning what he is saying. When you take out who Eb is and just read the sentences (as though someone like Uriel were saying them) suddenly the White Court and Thomas etc look very shady.
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Lara may be dirty and she was draining Thomas rather than feeding him. Who knows? Her first favor might have been getting Mab to shield Justine from the babies demon. Maybe she wanted Thomas to die on the island and was pissed because Harry put him in a cell and saved his life. This book is such a hot mess it's hard to decide. Do we know what her first favor was?
So that would mean that Lara feigned surprise when Harry told her that Justine was pregnant and that she allowed Harry to strike her during their practice duel in order to give credence to her deception. Lying is something Lara could do, but faking being surprised is a bit more difficult. I'm not saying it's impossible, just that without further evidence it lacks credibility.
I'm going to be very interested in the first few chapters of Battle Ground because with only half the story we (and by extension Harry) are missing some vital clues. I'm also going to waiting for Harry to stop reacting and start thinking like a detective again. For me, one of the most frustrating elements of Peace Talks was that Harry was mostly stuck reacting to events rather thinking them through.
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Oh, I think he is. I think Harry doesn't yet appreciate the danger of the White Court. I also think Eb is made to look crazy in order to direct the readers into questioning what he is saying. When you take out who Eb is and just read the sentences (as though someone like Uriel were saying them) suddenly the White Court and Thomas etc look very shady.
Harry knows exactly how dangerous the white court is but he thinks Thomas is worth fighting for despite the risk just like Molly was worth fighting for. The white council is more risk averse and that is why it has strict rules about who is human and who to execute. Better safe than sorry.
But in many respects Harry is more influenced by Michael than by Ebenezer.
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But does he? It seems to me that Harry is making the error of assuming he has all the facts and understands them. With incomplete data it's difficult to really predict anything. The less data you have, the less accurate your prediction is likely to be.
Eb's warning is essentially that; you cannot expect the WCV to act reliably because they are essentially unreliable. Harry is as guilty of confirmation bias as anyone, and he has less information than Eb does on the White Court.
However, I will grant that everything Eb said and was warning about was prior to his knowledge of Thomas as his own grandson. He obviously is also rather racist when it comes to them so it's clear it's hard for him to see them as anything but.
Harry may be more similar in his values to Michael, but his behavior overall has been more similar to Eb's. It's only recently that has changed. Regardless, his values have little to do with his ability to predict the White Court.
The whole point is that they are very good at getting humans to let their guard down. It's not all come hithers and mental whammys. They only seem to be that obvious because when it comes to mortals that's easy for them. But in terms of the long game, I think Harry underestimates them.
Harry's main ability to be unpredictable is his wild card nature. But in saying that, I would say there are many fans who would be able to reliably predict his behavior. Not everything of course. Not even Jim always knows what Harry will do. That's sort of the point. But many actions Harry has taken have been predicted. Most of his general behavior in the early books is fairly predictable. Especially when you look at the whole. Of course we all get surprised now and again. In fact, it's highly likely that Jim builds certain patterns in Dresden's behavior in order to be able to surprise us.
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But does he? It seems to me that Harry is making the error of assuming he has all the facts and understands them. With incomplete data it's difficult to really predict anything. The less data you have, the less accurate your prediction is likely to be.
Eb's warning is essentially that; you cannot expect the WCV to act reliably because they are essentially unreliable. Harry is as guilty of confirmation bias as anyone, and he has less information than Eb does on the White Court.
He probably has more. He knows what his mother’s death curse did for example. He has seen club zero for what it is. Ebenezer probably does not know about the true love protection either. Because of the illusion and what was told he thought Harry was making out with Lara and that triggered an even more violent reaction.
However, I will grant that everything Eb said and was warning about was prior to his knowledge of Thomas as his own grandson. He obviously is also rather racist when it comes to them so it's clear it's hard for him to see them as anything but.
He is probably racist with all things not human. There is a racist streak in the white council though it is not just based on some superficial colorings.
Harry may be more similar in his values to Michael, but his behavior overall has been more similar to Eb's. It's only recently that has changed. Regardless, his values have little to do with his ability to predict the White Court.
He must have a serious reason to take the risk but he is prepared to do so. Probably because he was a warlock himself. A white court vampire is not that different from a highly specialized warlock.
But they have all killed.
The whole point is that they are very good at getting humans to let their guard down. It's not all come hithers and mental whammys. They only seem to be that obvious because when it comes to mortals that's easy for them. But in terms of the long game, I think Harry underestimates them.
You can always Think so but he also is always on his guard with them. He just is not in a place we’re he can always avoid them.
Harry's main ability to be unpredictable is his wild card nature. But in saying that, I would say there are many fans who would be able to reliably predict his behavior. Not everything of course. Not even Jim always knows what Harry will do. That's sort of the point. But many actions Harry has taken have been predicted. Most of his general behavior in the early books is fairly predictable. Especially when you look at the whole. Of course we all get surprised now and again. In fact, it's highly likely that Jim builds certain patterns in Dresden's behavior in order to be able to surprise us.
Without patters people can not even try to predict you. But there is a reason Karin finds it much easier to predict Harry than Nicodemus does.
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Also Blood Rites.
I've wondered if Eb was right about everything ever since someone posted that Eb should have better explained to Harry why he hated WCVs so much. It reminded me of arguments about Harry should have better explained to Kim Delaney and Susan the dangers of the greater circle and the vampire party.
They seem alike but they are not, because the motivation is so different. The big one is family, for a long time Thomas was Harry's only family, his brother, and he behaved as a brother. So Harry isn't going to be rational about the dangers of the vamps. He should have told Eb earlier who Thomas was, now is a bit late. Eb should have been honest with Harry from the time he first came to live with him as a sixteen year old kid.. Being Blackstaff and his "orders" concerning Harry I am sure had a lot to do with it, but I wonder how much of that was merely an excuse?
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Well, Eb can't literally be 100% correct, because we have a Thomas POV in "Backup" - Thomas has lied to Harry about things before, but we do know he actually cares about Harry and is not just playing a long game.
But I think Eb has a pretty good point about the White Court in general - Lara even admits in PT that they can't completely control their Hunger. They are not safe beings to hang around with, even if they don't actually have bad intentions toward you, especially if you might end up looking like prey.
The mind control thing... I dunno. It certainly could be, but it doesn't feel right to me. I kind of think that with the things he learned in GS and CD about the soul and self, identity, will etc., Harry wouldn't be as vulnerable to that sort of thing as he was before dying and being reborn. But I don't really have much to base that on.
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The whole point is that they are very good at getting humans to let their guard down. It's not all come hithers and mental whammys. They only seem to be that obvious because when it comes to mortals that's easy for them. But in terms of the long game, I think Harry underestimates them.
I dunno. Lara is really politically competent in ways outside her specific magical powers, and now that she leads the Court, their strategy reflects that.
Thomas isn't really a "long game" mastermind, though from Backup he's probably a bit better at being indirect and thinking things through than Harry (before SG, anyway).
The Skavis/Malvora opposition in WN is pretty unimpressive, and their plan isn't much good (IMO Cowl was playing them all along, I don't think they were actually intended to succeed.)
And the other Raiths (not Thomas/Lara) who show up in TC aren't particularly impressive.
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He probably has more. He knows what his mother’s death curse did for example. He has seen club zero for what it is. Ebenezer probably does not know about the true love protection either. Because of the illusion and what was told he thought Harry was making out with Lara and that triggered an even more violent reaction.He is probably racist with all things not human. There is a racist streak in the white council though it is not just based on some superficial colorings.He must have a serious reason to take the risk but he is prepared to do so. Probably because he was a warlock himself. A white court vampire is not that different from a highly specialized warlock.
But they have all killed.You can always Think so but he also is always on his guard with them. He just is not in a place we’re he can always avoid them.
Without patters people can not even try to predict you. But there is a reason Karin finds it much easier to predict Harry than Nicodemus does.
The interesting predictive character is Mavra, who appears to get Harry very well.
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Harry knows exactly how dangerous the white court is but he thinks Thomas is worth fighting for despite the risk just like Molly was worth fighting for. The white council is more risk averse and that is why it has strict rules about who is human and who to execute. Better safe than sorry.
But in many respects Harry is more influenced by Michael than by Ebenezer.
If there is a central theme of the Dresden Files, I think it's all about this conflict.
I don't think racist is the right word to use when speaking of something that's not entirely human or just not human at all. Prejudiced is probably the most accurate. As in prejudging. And it's probably a pretty correct course of action, too.
They seem alike but they are not, because the motivation is so different. The big one is family, for a long time Thomas was Harry's only family, his brother, and he behaved as a brother. So Harry isn't going to be rational about the dangers of the vamps. He should have told Eb earlier who Thomas was, now is a bit late. Eb should have been honest with Harry from the time he first came to live with him as a sixteen year old kid.. Being Blackstaff and his "orders" concerning Harry I am sure had a lot to do with it, but I wonder how much of that was merely an excuse?
I'm not saying they're exactly alike, but I am saying that maybe Eb is right that Harry shouldn't be as careless as he is with the WCV and no matter what Eb says, Harry isn't going to listen. Just like Harry was right and Susan and Kim wouldn't listen to Harry no matter what he said. I'm not saying Harry is ignoring Eb because he's career minded or that he thinks Eb doesn't have much more experience than him.
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The problem with Ebenezer is not that he is right or wrong. The problem is that he can not have a decent chat about it.
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No person that you know, under almost any condition, would break an accused murderer from out of jail. It isn't a rational response. You can never know the mind of another or know their guilt or innocence. And if you did it, you could expect to end up as an outlaw, even if he was later proven to be not guilty. Family is important, but Harry has more at stake with a daughter, then a single man. This is all well and good if Harry's destiny is to become King of the world, but kinda shortsighted if not.
I don't know what Jim is trying to accomplish but his motivations are kinda lame. I could see going to the wall while Thomas hangs out in a cell. Instead he has the Swart whatevers execute Thomas with a slow death, even though they say he is awaiting judgement. It's just plain stupid and doesn't hang together very well.
And why is Harry all of a sudden having abandonment issues? He's picked a piss poor time to get all angsty about being left in a lurch. Hell Thomas should be angry, his mother left him after making sure he was a serial killer by birth.
Putting that aside for the moment, having Thomas suffer the pain of all the many that he has hurt has been something that has been needed. As sympathetic as he is he has committed murder multiple times and being Harry's brother doesn't make him fit company for a child. Eb is right, down the line and Harry is wrong. Lara is a 1000 year old murderess who has had to have killed hundreds. And even she admits she can't always control it. Harry and Jim are in a fantasy. In the real world Lara and Thomas would be hunted by their prey and exterminated.
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No person that you know, under almost any condition, would break an accused murderer from out of jail. It isn't a rational response.
That basically depends on your trust in the law and the state behind it. It would be pretty normal behavior if you live in a failed state and your family/clan/tribe is more important than who is a the moment oppressing you and yours.
Or it depends on the nature of the state. Or actually states because what Lara is really doing is freeing a captive from another state. One of her people is accused of murder in another state and hold captive in a third one.
This could be seen as an act of war but even in the real world it would probably not result in a war but in a diplomatic crisis that can be resolved.
You can never know the mind of another or know their guilt or innocence. And if you did it, you could expect to end up as an outlaw, even if he was later proven to be not guilty.
I think you are thinking modern state here. Mab knows what he is doing and as long as he does not embarrass her he will probably have both Lara and Mab supporting her.
Family is important, but Harry has more at stake with a daughter, then a single man. This is all well and good if Harry's destiny is to become King of the world, but kinda shortsighted if not.
There may be fallout for Harry but strictly speaking the situation is much like Skin Game, it is primarily Lara’s problem.
Our legal view of the situation is distorted because of Harry’s emotional investment in it but he had to help Lara because of what Mab did.
But really Harry had no choice. Harry wanted to do it so he did not see it that way but he had to help.
I don't know what Jim is trying to accomplish but his motivations are kinda lame. I could see going to the wall while Thomas hangs out in a cell. Instead he has the Swart whatevers execute Thomas with a slow death, even though they say he is awaiting judgement. It's just plain stupid and doesn't hang together very well.
You can not really expect them to feed his hunger especially in his current state and for all we know he was very likely already far gone when he attacked.
And why is Harry all of a sudden having abandonment issues?
Sudden :D
He's picked a piss poor time to get all angsty about being left in a lurch. Hell Thomas should be angry, his mother left him after making sure he was a serial killer by birth.
We do not know the circumstances. She might not have had that much of a choice.
Putting that aside for the moment, having Thomas suffer the pain of all the many that he has hurt has been something that has been needed. As sympathetic as he is he has committed murder multiple times and being Harry's brother doesn't make him fit company for a child. Eb is right, down the line and Harry is wrong. Lara is a 1000 year old murderess who has had to have killed hundreds. And even she admits she can't always control it. Harry and Jim are in a fantasy. In the real world Lara and Thomas would be hunted by their prey and exterminated.
And rapists. Being irresistible by magical means might be an adolescent fantasy but I think the law would see it differently if they knew how it worked.
Of course and that is why they don’t want the masquerade to end.
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No person that you know, under almost any condition, would break an accused murderer from out of jail. It isn't a rational response. You can never know the mind of another or know their guilt or innocence. And if you did it, you could expect to end up as an outlaw, even if he was later proven to be not guilty. Family is important, but Harry has more at stake with a daughter, then a single man. This is all well and good if Harry's destiny is to become King of the world, but kinda shortsighted if not.
In the real world? No. Well, maybe if you knew for a fact that they were innocent and were in danger of dying in jail. Having said that, very few families have the means or the power to orchestrate a jail break. So no, it isn't rational, except Harry is Warden of Demonreach, that is where he deposited Thomas in stasis, he isn't going anywhere. In a sense you might say he merely transferred the prisoner to where he thinks he will be safe from being executed without a fair trial. If he is as irrational or really short sighted as you suggest, he'd have just turned Thomas over to Lara. Let her see to it that he gets fed and recovered, do you doubt that she has the connections, even if they could track him, that she couldn't keep him safe for some time?
I don't know what Jim is trying to accomplish but his motivations are kinda lame. I could see going to the wall while Thomas hangs out in a cell. Instead he has the Swart whatevers execute Thomas with a slow death, even though they say he is awaiting judgement. It's just plain stupid and doesn't hang together very well.
It is my least favorite aspect of the whole book, which is too bad because it takes up a huge percentage of Peace Talks. All the while what do we know about Thomas? Justine is pregnant, Thomas is worried about the Hunger eating her while she carries the child.. Then BOOM! Thomas attempts an assassination, someone dies as a result who is a friend of Harry's. Thomas is beaten with in an inch of his life, which is weird when you think about it, normally if he is topped off he is super human and that sort of thing doesn't happen. The the rest of the book is dominated by the efforts to spring Thomas, which is really a huge distraction. In a sense unless there is stuff in the next book that we don't know about, that whole story line really dumbs down the whole book in my opinion. That could be just sour grapes on my part because I am disappointed. I was hoping for some real political fireworks between the Accord members before the big Fomor entrance.
And why is Harry all of a sudden having abandonment issues? He's picked a piss poor time to get all angsty about being left in a lurch. Hell Thomas should be angry, his mother left him after making sure he was a serial killer by birth.
He has always had those, but suddenly he gets a severe case of a wizard childhood illness? Another thing that was more of a distraction than anything else. Not to say my opinion could change if it leads to some reveal or another.
Putting that aside for the moment, having Thomas suffer the pain of all the many that he has hurt has been something that has been needed. As sympathetic as he is he has committed murder multiple times and being Harry's brother doesn't make him fit company for a child. Eb is right, down the line and Harry is wrong. Lara is a 1000 year old murderess who has had to have killed hundreds. And even she admits she can't always control it. Harry and Jim are in a fantasy. In the real world Lara and Thomas would be hunted by their prey and exterminated.
Yeah, well, I am thinking back to the end of Turn Coat where after his stay with Shaggy, Thomas said Lara was right, and was going full White Court. He wasn't even attempting to be human anymore, when he looks at people all he sees is kine.. He was very cold and matter of fact about it too to Harry. Now, being with Justine may have mitigated that somewhat, but he was with her then.
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No person that you know, under almost any condition, would break an accused murderer from out of jail. It isn't a rational response. You can never know the mind of another or know their guilt or innocence. And if you did it, you could expect to end up as an outlaw, even if he was later proven to be not guilty. Family is important, but Harry has more at stake with a daughter, then a single man. This is all well and good if Harry's destiny is to become King of the world, but kinda shortsighted if not.
Really good point -- especially given that the book opens with Harry giving Thomas exactly that lecture.
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Really good point -- especially given that the book opens with Harry giving Thomas exactly that lecture.
Or maybe a good reason not to anger Mab by not helping Lara and paying back to favor Mab owed to her.
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Or maybe a good reason not to anger Mab by not helping Lara and paying back to favor Mab owed to her.
Right. In supernatural-world-politics/Accords terms, Harry is not actually responsible for the jailbreak; he is acting under Mab's orders, and Mab has passed that authority to Lara as part of the faerie law of exchange of favors.
Harry isn't going to become a supernatural outlaw by doing it. Not doing it would be a much greater threat (because Mab would retaliate).
This is one reason I think Eb is clearly irrational when he confronts Harry flying on a boulder when they get on the boat -- his whole "you'll be an outlaw" beginning is just flat wrong. Even if Harry gets kicked off the Council, he's still Winter Knight. That's a recognized position with an Accords nation.
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Being Winter Knight wouldn't make him less of an outlaw to the White Council, it would just make him a politically-untouchable outlaw.
Compare to Hannah Asher, the warden-killing warlock. If the Denarians were still Accord members, she'd still be a warlock and an outlaw even after she took up Lasciel's coin. She'd just be a trickier political issue.
I think the "outlaw" issue for Eb is that he's the White Council's hitman. If the White Council decided that taking out Harry Dresden was more important than not offending Mab, Eb's the one they'd task with doing it. And it's dredging up his painful memories of the days after Harry was arrested for Justin's murder.
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Being Winter Knight wouldn't make him less of an outlaw to the White Council, it would just make him a politically-untouchable outlaw.
Well, he could still be an outlaw to the White Council, sure, but not to the broader Accorded supernatural world of Accorded nations.
The point of outlawing someone, historically, was to deprive them of support. If they've got their own nation... not much point. It would be more like exiling him from the Council.
He wouldn't lose being Warden of Demonreach, either. (Even if the White Council historically 'claims' Demonreach, Demonreach's bond is with Harry specifically.)
And -- assuming Thomas survives the next book -- he wouldn't lose his family connection to House Raith either.
While Harry is operating as a Warden (a White Council Warden - not Warden of Demonreach), the Council has influence over him. If they kick him out... they don't. And what does Harry actually lose? The Council generally creates problems for Harry, not actual help.
Compare to Hannah Asher, the warden-killing warlock. If the Denarians were still Accord members, she'd still be a warlock and an outlaw even after she took up Lasciel's coin. She'd just be a trickier political issue.
The difference was that Ascher wasn't known to be a Denarian, that was secret; Harry is known to be Winter Knight throughout the supernatural world.
Back when the Denarians were Accords members, the Wardens would have stopped hunting Ascher if she'd announced herself as a Denarian - the same way they stopped hunting Molly when she became Winter Lady.
I think the "outlaw" issue for Eb is that he's the White Council's hitman. If the White Council decided that taking out Harry Dresden was more important than not offending Mab,
They'd never do that; offending Mab would be a threat to the existence of the Council itself.
They could kill Harry for something he'd done unrelated to Winter; that would probably be politically OK.
But killing him in a way that would offend Mab -- say because he'd betrayed the White Council by becoming Winter Knight -- would be inviting horrible retaliation on the entire Council.
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No person that you know, under almost any condition, would break an accused murderer from out of jail.
It wasn't that uncommon historically. Not even just 100 years ago in America.
RE: Outlaw: Harry's world is one of power more than rule of law. I don't think being an outlaw would matter too much for someone in Harry's position. There's a lot of talk in PT about all the people/things not taking shots at Harry because he's in the Council. I'm not so sure about that.
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RE: Outlaw: Harry's world is one of power more than rule of law. I don't think being an outlaw would matter too much for someone in Harry's position. There's a lot of talk in PT about all the people/things not taking shots at Harry because he's in the Council. I'm not so sure about that.
Yeah. Exactly. This whole line of thought seems suspicious. The Council doesn't really protect Harry that much, and to the degree they ever did, Harry's role as Winter Knight and reputation as the guy who killed off the entire Red Court would more than make up for it.
Especially Eb's comments about the Svartalves killing Harry for protecting Thomas.
In that case, Harry is acting under Mab's orders (through her favor to Lara). The Svartalves have no basis under the Accords to go after Harry for that.
And anyway... Harry's dealt with worse enemies than the Svartalves before. He'd have to live somewhere else, but once he was off their grounds, I really don't think that having them as enemies would be worse for Harry than, say, having the Red Court as enemies. Except that Harry has more resources now than he did between GP and Changes.
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Harry's dealt with worse enemies than the Svartalves before.
I'm not so sure about how much of a problem Svartalves would be. We've never really seen them in action. We've just repeatedly heard no one wants to mess with them.
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Re: Harry being protected by the threat of White Council vengeance...
When he was dead for a year or so, did the White Council investigate at all?
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I'm not so sure about how much of a problem Svartalves would be. We've never really seen them in action. We've just repeatedly heard no one wants to mess with them.
We also heard that Mab has excellent relations with them. Lara seems to think she can smooth things out later and she is responsible for everything Harry does. It really depends on what Jim wants to happen.
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@Bad Alias
Yeah I know, might makes right.
@vultur
The White Council went to war over Harry, even if it was kicking and screaming, and Jim has Harry call this out in the dialog.
@ClintACK
When we last see the Council in Changes they are at the edge of civil war, some of the young Wardens are locked up as is Luccio. Maybe they were too busy to do much in terms of investigation. And Jim simply ignores that.
More generally, a suspicious mind might suspect that everybody is being manipulated in some fashion. Everybody is just off.
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No person that you know, under almost any condition, would break an accused murderer from out of jail. It isn't a rational response.
It is under certain circumstances.
1. You have the means to do so.
2. You believe you can get away with doing so. I mean, not just pulling off the escape but believing you can avoid the legal repercussions.
3. You believe what you are doing is right; and people are capable of believing a lot of crazy s**t, or simply not caring about right and wrong.
There are plenty of historical examples of individuals and groups of supposedly responsible people doing far worse. The case of the FBI agents who covered up for the gangster Whitey Bulger; over a long period of time while he committed numerous crimes and multiple murders, are a prime example. I personally know a former District Attorney who knowingly protected a rapist from prosecution because he thought he was getting more valuable information to convict a group of supposedly worse individuals. (I don't mean he gave this person a lighter sentence, I mean almost complete protection from prosecution.) I also know a couple of police officers (The detectives who investigated the rapes allegedly committed by individual in question.) who discussed putting a hit on that same rapist because they thought they would be doing "the right thing." And they thought they could get away with it.
Family is important, but Harry has more at stake with a daughter, then a single man. This is all well and good if Harry's destiny is to become King of the world, but kinda shortsighted if not.
I don't know what Jim is trying to accomplish but his motivations are kinda lame. I could see going to the wall while Thomas hangs out in a cell. Instead he has the Swart whatevers execute Thomas with a slow death, even though they say he is awaiting judgement. It's just plain stupid and doesn't hang together very well.
I don't blame Harry for his feelings, but I would have preferred it if Harry had a better justification for them. He knew that Thomas was set up, but couldn't prove it or something similar. However, the actual breakout was something that Lara wanted and that Harry was obligated to help her accomplish. He didn't really have a choice in the manner. What would have been far darker would have been if Lara hadn't asked Harry for any favors, if he had just volunteered to help Lara without being compelled to do so.
I do understand what you mean by it feeling a bit lame, like events didn't hang together very well. What bothered me more was that Harry wasn't asking questions beyond, "Why would Thomas do this?" Once Harry realized that Thomas didn't have a rational reason, other than perhaps he had been pressured by someone or something else to do it in order to protect Justine, Harry didn't go any further. Simple questions like "Why was Etri the target?" or "Could it have been an inside job?" or even "Isn't it convenient that Mab told Harry he owed paying off two favors to Lara just before she needed them to rescue Thomas?" are all ideas that should have been floating through Harry's mind, even if he didn't have a way to immediately start investigating any of them. Even if none of those ideas led anywhere, they would have been great misdirection for the readers to ponder over. At least it would have been things the Harry we used to know would have done. He is supposed to be a detective after all.
And why is Harry all of a sudden having abandonment issues? He's picked a piss poor time to get all angsty about being left in a lurch. Hell Thomas should be angry, his mother left him after making sure he was a serial killer by birth.
Oh, I think this has been coming on for a long time. Harry has had almost nothing good to say about being an orphan (and why would he?), at any time during the series. He didn't know that Ebenzer was his grandfather until well after he had grown up and moved to Chicago or this would have most likely come out pre-Storm Front when Harry was a teenager living with Ebenezer.
Now add that to the old anger that Susan once kept Harry's daughter a secret and hidden from him, the realization that Ebenezer was thinking of doing the same thing and that the Winter mantel with its territorial imperative was pushing Harry to fight, and it was easy for Harry to run with his feelings.
Your point about Thomas is not invalid. If the series was about the lives of two characters; Harry and Thomas and each of them shared the story's narration, I think we would hear a lot more of what Thomas thinks and feels about Margaret LaFey. Jim covers this by making Thomas go silent and angsty when he gets angry or he feels something is too personal to discus.
Putting that aside for the moment, having Thomas suffer the pain of all the many that he has hurt has been something that has been needed. As sympathetic as he is he has committed murder multiple times and being Harry's brother doesn't make him fit company for a child. Eb is right, down the line and Harry is wrong. Lara is a 1000 year old murderess who has had to have killed hundreds. And even she admits she can't always control it. Harry and Jim are in a fantasy. In the real world Lara and Thomas would be hunted by their prey and exterminated.
Minor question, but is Lara 1,000 years old? Where did you get that info? I just checked the Dresden Files Timeline and I didn't find a reference for her date of birth. Is it from something Lara said in one of the books?
As far as Thomas being made to suffer all the terrible things he has done to others, I think you are correct. Other forum members have guessed that this is a part of Thomas' redemption arc and I agree with them.
Ebenezer may be right about the White Court, but what he was thinking about doing was wrong. There is a difference between being right and being self righteous; especially if that attitude leads someone to the point where they can do absolutely anything they feel is right no matter how much it may harm other people. Several people on this forum have posted the idea that perhaps Ebenezer has been slowly corrupted by his use of the Blackstaff, that it doesn't completely shield him from the effects of using black magic. I think it's far more likely that having and repeatedly using this ability over more than two centuries is the corrupting influence. I think "power corrupts" was actually said by Harry or Karin during one of their conversations in Peace Talks, so perhaps it's one of the themes Jim is playing with in this book and the larger story of both PT and Battle Ground.
The Dresden Files is a fantasy series, but you're not wrong about Lara. I think someone with Lara's abilities would have to be incredibly discreet; far more than we see in the series, to enslave and knock off victims without having numerous family members attempt to track her down and kill her.
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I think someone with Lara's abilities would have to be incredibly discreet; far more than we see in the series, to enslave and knock off victims without having numerous family members attempt to track her down and kill her.
Normal people don't know about Whampires, and Whampire-induced death doesn't look like murder to mundane eyes (heart attack for Raiths, suicide for Skavis, etc.) So mundane family members of mundane victims have no reason to look for a murderer. I don't think Lara generally feeds on people who have supernaturally-aware family members or friends capable of retaliation.
Also, Lara is probably relatively controlled, and doesn't kill when she doesn't intend to - which means probably long-term Raith thralls, who are likely chosen specifically not to be missed.
And unless you're on at least a Warden's power level, how would you retaliate against Lara anyway? She's a mind-bender, it's not like she's likely to be arrested, and if she was she wouldn't stay there long. A normal mortal (or less powerful supernatural) attempt at direct murder would be really unlikely to succeed.
The Accords keep Lara largely safe from people who are powerful enough to hurt her, as long as she follows the rules...
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It isn't that you couldn't break someone out of jail, it's just that it is almost never a good thing to do. I get that in the Dresdenverse it's about power., but Harry doesn't really question why it is playing out this way. He just thinks that he is going to free Thomas or burn trying.
Which meant I didn’t have to go out in a blaze of glory, or at least gory, that very moment.
Butcher, Jim. Peace Talks (Dresden Files) (p. 70). Penguin Publishing Group. Kindle Edition.
I don't call that rational, even less so when you have your daughter and babysitter and dog upstairs trapped among your soon to be enemies.
I thought I read somewhere she was a thousand years old, but maybe not. It just may have been an overabundance of enthusiasm for the topic. :-[
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@vultur
The White Council went to war over Harry, even if it was kicking and screaming, and Jim has Harry call this out in the dialog.
Yeah, kind of, but they had to do that anyway - the Red Court was already planning war against the Council.
Also, Harry back at the end of GP didn't have the non-Council positions (Warden of Demonreach and Winter Knight) he does now. He also didn't have the reputation he's accumulated in the books from SK to SG.
Harry the powerful but inexperienced maverick wizard was a much less intimidating figure than Harry the Winter Knight, destroyer of the entire Red Court, slayer of immortals.
The Winter Knight is a significant supernatural figure already. With all Harry's other accomplishments and connections added to the Mantle, he's pretty terrifying even without the Council's backing. And that's assuming that his enemies don't know about Demonreach, which is a whole other level of terrifying.
Part of this is that we know Harry isn't going to use his more evil options to full effect, since we see his POV. But his enemies likely don't know that, especially after the whole "extinction of the Red Court" incident.
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I'm not so sure about how much of a problem Svartalves would be. We've never really seen them in action. We've just repeatedly heard no one wants to mess with them.
Oh I am sure they are scary and highly competent. But... on the other hand everyone acts like an assassination attempt by Thomas acting alone is a plausible threat to Etri's life. That wouldn't have been true for the Red King or Mab or Titania or Kringle or the Erlking.
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Etri isn't the king of all svartalves, though, is he? He's just the head of the svartalf embassy in Chicago -- so, more equivalent to Bianca in Grave Peril than to the Red King.
We're told repeatedly that no one messes with the svartalves, and we've never seen them lose a fight. "Froggy" in Bombshells had Molly handily outclassed and Etri casually starts hacking pieces off him and submerges him in the floor without bothering to wait for security. Compare that to the difficulty Marcone had with Mag in Even Hand. Molly (in Bombshells) and Harry (in Peace Talks) both point out that even the norse gods never got into a fight with the svartalves. It's possible that their reputation is undeserved, but did you notice the stockpiles of vehicles and weapons when they were taking Harry to see Thomas? Shades of Vadderung's armory.
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Etri isn't the king of all svartalves, though, is he? He's just the head of the svartalf embassy in Chicago -- so, more equivalent to Bianca in Grave Peril than to the Red King.
I thought he was called a head of state in PT.
We're told repeatedly that no one messes with the svartalves,
I think that has more to do with connections than overt power, rather like the White Court.
I mean, they are seriously big deals, sure. Their rulers not being "mostly retired god" to demi-god level like the Red King, Kringle/Odin, Erlking, Mab, and Titania doesn't at all make them insignificant. The White Court is extremely scary, for example.
But they seem to be one of the "Wyld faerie organizations", less powerful than Summer or Winter. So they are unlikely to go kill the Winter Knight for something he did as a direct agent of Mab, as that would be essentially an act of war against Winter.
But anyway, that's not really my point. The White Court is really scary - but I have no doubt that Harry would attack them if he saw it as the right thing to do, the only way to protect the people he's committed to protect. He did do it to Cowl, Aurora, the entire Red Court, etc. Going to war against things beyond his "weight class" when he sees it as the right thing to do is pretty much Harry's trademark.
So why does Eb think that "the svartalves are going to try to kill you" is an useful thing to say to deter Harry?
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Etri isn't the king of all svartalves, though, is he? He's just the head of the svartalf embassy in Chicago -- so, more equivalent to Bianca in Grave Peril than to the Red King.
We're told repeatedly that no one messes with the svartalves, and we've never seen them lose a fight. "Froggy" in Bombshells had Molly handily outclassed and Etri casually starts hacking pieces off him and submerges him in the floor without bothering to wait for security. Compare that to the difficulty Marcone had with Mag in Even Hand. Molly (in Bombshells) and Harry (in Peace Talks) both point out that even the norse gods never got into a fight with the svartalves. It's possible that their reputation is undeserved, but did you notice the stockpiles of vehicles and weapons when they were taking Harry to see Thomas? Shades of Vadderung's armory.
Which says the "escape" itself was a mere set up, if Thomas had remained in the embassy compound, it would have been more difficult if not impossible for Harry and company to
get to him let alone remove him. I think Lara knows a lot more than she is telling, it was why
she went to Mab calling in her "favors" before Thomas ever killed anyone. How much she knows about the assassination attempt at this time before it happened is unclear. But I think Lara knew,
so went to Mab for insurance. Or it is a replay of Skin Game, Mab knew before hand, couldn't or wouldn't stop Thomas for some really complicated political reasons, then arrange with Marcone to
have Thomas moved to a place where he could be freed. Vadderung also seems to be in on it to some degree, since both he and Mab seem to be aware of Harry and what he is doing, but say nothing about it. Depending on the reasons it might be what gets Harry out of the Winter Knight's gig in the end with Molly's help.
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The Svartalves seem to be insane when it comes to duty and balancing the scales. If Harry did wrong them, on his own recognizance, they wouldn't let it go because they fear Mab. In this case, though, their obsession should lead them to target all their vengeance on Lara, if they know that Harry was formally working for her to repay a favor.
We're told Etri is "what amounted to a head of state" and "the heaviest hitter [Harry] knew of among his people", but he's also described as "the head of the svartalf embassy". That's not a description you'd give to a king.
I do think there's something of a setup going on, but I'd be shocked if it ends up with Harry freed from Winter. In Peace Talks he manages to become even more entangled with Winter, owing a new favor to the Winter Lady. And his public behavior during the peace talks will have isolated him even more than usual, confirming everyone's suspicions -- from acting the part of Mab's thug with the too-blatant-not-to-be-a-setup sidhe fiddler to sexually assaulting a valkyrie right there on the dance floor in true Lloyd Slate fashion; from being so jumpy he almost attacks Strength-of-a-River-in-his-Shoulders at the buffet line to being seen having sex with the White Queen; and worst of all when the peace talks collapsed into brutal violence with einherjaren gunned down in the great hall and Mab drop-kicked through multiple walls, Harry was completely AWOL. His one assignment from the wardens was security, and when they needed security the most, he wasn't there.
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I do think there's something of a setup going on, but I'd be shocked if it ends up with Harry freed from Winter. In Peace Talks he manages to become even more entangled with Winter, owing a new favor to the Winter Lady. And his public behavior during the peace talks will have isolated him even more than usual, confirming everyone's suspicions -- from acting the part of Mab's thug with the too-blatant-not-to-be-a-setup sidhe fiddler to sexually assaulting a valkyrie right there on the dance floor in true Lloyd Slate fashion; from being so jumpy he almost attacks Strength-of-a-River-in-his-Shoulders at the buffet line to being seen having sex with the White Queen; and worst of all when the peace talks collapsed into brutal violence with einherjaren gunned down in the great hall and Mab drop-kicked through multiple walls, Harry was completely AWOL. His one assignment from the wardens was security, and when they needed security the most, he wasn't there.
The Fomor did throw a "monkey wrench" into whatever Mab's plans were originally. It is very suspect that on the eve of the talks suddenly Lara shows up calling in favors and Mab willing to lend her Knight for them. Then the assassination attempt, so what game is Lara playing? How is it that Thomas was willing to go along with the plans? Did Lara promise him a way to keep Justine safe if he went along? If the above is true, apparently Lara wanted assurance that her brother would be rescued. How much were Marcone, Vadderung, and even the Svartalves, themselves in on the plans? Could it be that it was an attempt by them to sabotage their own talks?
1] Thomas becomes such an insider that he is able to get past the Svartalve security. Putting
him in perfect position to make the attempt in the first place.
2] The Svartalves agree to allow Harry to get little Maggie out instead of holding her as "leverage."
3] The Svartalves agree to allow Thomas to be moved to Marcone's castle in the middle of the talks.
The guard placed on Thomas is light, considering what supposedly he is guilty of.
4] Before things go to hell, both Vadderung and Mab seem to be aware of what Harry is doing, but look the other way.
You could be right about Molly cashing in on the little bargain she made with Harry to keep him as Knight. However if I am right, once Harry finds out that Mab was behind what happened to Thomas he will really be pissed. Mab is going to have to do some really fast talking to ever get Harry to cooperate with her again.
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If it ends with Thomas and the baby safe and Hunger-free, as a result of a Bargain, Harry will be mad that he was out of the loop, but not at all displeased.
The key moment for Harry-Mab relations, I think, is when he asks her to trust him and she does. The next step will be Mab actually telling him what her endgame goal is and trusting him to work towards it, rather than trying to strongarm and manipulate him into doing it -- and I think we could see that in some aspect of Battle Ground. There are tons of small plots going on surrounding the big thing (which itself is just a distraction for what's happening at the Outer Gates) -- I'd bet there's one that could be handled quickly if Mab were to simply tell Harry her goal and point him in the right direction.
(My current working theory is that the Lara-Mab-Marcone plot is designed to smoke out the Nemfected and other traitors among the Accords signatories. I'd imagine lots of suspects being fed information or put in what looks like a pivotal position, so they'll be tempted to betray the alliance and expose themselves.)
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If it ends with Thomas and the baby safe and Hunger-free, as a result of a Bargain, Harry will be mad that he was out of the loop, but not at all displeased.
"If," is half of life as my dear old father used to say. That still might happen but I don't believe it
will be by the end of Battle Ground. I get the feeling that Thomas is going to remain in stasis for at
least a book or two. I think Mab is trying to make amends for that, among other things to Harry in Christmas Eve.
The key moment for Harry-Mab relations, I think, is when he asks her to trust him and she does. The next step will be Mab actually telling him what her endgame goal is and trusting him to work towards it, rather than trying to strongarm and manipulate him into doing it -- and I think we could see that in some aspect of Battle Ground. There are tons of small plots going on surrounding the big thing (which itself is just a distraction for what's happening at the Outer Gates) -- I'd bet there's one that could be handled quickly if Mab were to simply tell Harry her goal and point him in the right direction.
There is no proof that she trusts him fully,untill she lets him in on her plans. I think by the end of Battle Ground he will have earned her trust. But at the same time given the Knights, Ladies, and her working relationship with Titania the last thousand years or so, old habits die hard. We will have
to see how flexible she can be, and it will be critical that she is.
(My current working theory is that the Lara-Mab-Marcone plot is designed to smoke out the Nemfected and other traitors among the Accords signatories. I'd imagine lots of suspects being fed information or put in what looks like a pivotal position, so they'll be tempted to betray the alliance and expose themselves.)
Yeah, but that has become such a catch all, given the kind of risks and sacrifices of the likes of Harvey and now Thomas, I think it goes beyond just smoking out traitors and the Nemfected. I think there are less costly ways of doing that. Now I wouldn't be shocked, kind of turning your theory around a bit, if Marcone, Lara, or Mab were infected and that is why at least one of them was willing to play this game. Planting division and doubt are sure ways to defeat, it seems to me that was the goal of whoever put Thomas up to going through with this plot.
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In this case, though, their obsession should lead them to target all their vengeance on Lara, if they know that Harry was formally working for her to repay a favor.
Exactly.
We're told Etri is "what amounted to a head of state" and "the heaviest hitter [Harry] knew of among his people", but he's also described as "the head of the svartalf embassy". That's not a description you'd give to a king.
Eh... I don't think he's exactly a king, if he were he'd be outright a head of state, not just "what amounted to".
But I don't think he's several levels of authority down like Bianca relative to the Red King, she wouldn't even be "what amounted to a head of state".
I think that description puts him at the top level of authority among the svartalves, but not necessarily the only person at that level (he might be one of a number of essentially equal nobles).
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I think that description puts him at the top level of authority among the svartalves, but not necessarily the only person at that level (he might be one of a number of essentially equal nobles).
Who may have been in on his own assassination, which was part of a bigger plan to disrupt the talks. However it got botched, there was a death, and suddenly the stakes were raised a bit higher.