ParanetOnline

The Dresden Files => DFRPG => Topic started by: narphoenix on October 13, 2013, 04:28:22 AM

Title: New Concept/Template: Shaman of the Land
Post by: narphoenix on October 13, 2013, 04:28:22 AM

A shaman of the land tunes himself or herself to the surrounding land, gaining powers thematically in line with his or her environment. A sufficiently powerful Shaman can also shapeshift into his or her "spirit animal", a mundane animal that reflects the inner character of the Shaman somehow. Shamans grow more powerful the more lands the they visit and tune themselves to, making them able to gain more powers from the lands they visit as well as bolstering their spirit animal form. A shaman who has grown sufficiently powerful is singularly terrifying, able to improvise and adapt the power they get from a land to suit their circumstances.

Musts:

A shaman of the land must have a High Concept reflecting the fact that they're a shaman, such as DEFIANT SHAMAN OF THE LAND or SHAMAN AND PSYCHO. They also must take:

Mimic Land (as Mimic Abilities, but the Shaman must take abilities based off of the themes of the environment. This can include anything that fits in with the surroundings. Players are expected to get creative.) [-4]
Moderate Limitation (shamans can only hold onto the abilities they get from a land as long as they are in said land.) [+1]

The Land Sustains (reskinned Wizard's Constitution) [+0]


Additional Options:

A shaman may increase the number of his or her Mimic Abilities up to as many times as he or she can afford (adjusting Limitation accordingly). If a shaman has done this at least once, he or she becomes eligible to be able to shapeshift into his or her spirit animal and may therefore take:

Echoes of the Beast (Varies) [-1]
Beast Change [-1]

In addition, the shaman may take permanent physical powers and Creature Features, but they must be attached to Human Form [+1]. Given that a shaman derives his or her power from growth, any toughness powers carry an up to a +2 Catch of Necromancy and Outsider Magic.

Important Skills:

Depends. Many Shamans can shapeshift, so they can switch skills around. But nearly all of them have high Alertness and Lore.

Criticism welcome. I want to refine this enough that I can get it onto the Templates Section of the Wiki.

Title: Re: New Concept/Template: Shaman of the Land
Post by: g33k on October 14, 2013, 12:33:42 AM

Love the concept...   :D

Don't feel qualified to comment on the mechanics/balance issues, though...  :-[  Sorry!

Title: Re: New Concept/Template: Shaman of the Land
Post by: Sanctaphrax on October 14, 2013, 03:50:25 AM

Themes are fine, but Mimic Land is pretty iffy. How is that even supposed to work?

That aside, feel free to put this up on the wiki. There's worse stuff there already.

Title: Re: New Concept/Template: Shaman of the Land
Post by: narphoenix on October 14, 2013, 04:37:34 AM

Quote from: Sanctaphrax on October 14, 2013, 03:50:25 AM

Themes are fine, but Mimic Land is pretty iffy. How is that even supposed to work?

I think that's something best explained by example.

For instance, let's say Jacob, DEFIANT SHAMAN OF THE LAND, is in an area known to be pest infested. Mimic Land would allow him to grab Incite Insect Control (self indulgence? Never.) with upgrades. However, if he was in, say, Arctis Tor, he couldn't use Incite Insect Control because that's not in line with his environment...but grabbing Unseelie Magic using Mimic would absolutely be within his grasp.

Is that understandable?

And I want this to be of sufficent quality before I put it up.

Title: Re: New Concept/Template: Shaman of the Land
Post by: Sanctaphrax on October 14, 2013, 05:16:43 AM

Quote from: narphoenix on October 14, 2013, 04:37:34 AM

I think that's something best explained by example.

For instance, let's say Jacob, DEFIANT SHAMAN OF THE LAND, is in an area known to be pest infested. Mimic Land would allow him to grab Incite Insect Control (self indulgence? Never.) with upgrades. However, if he was in, say, Arctis Tor, he couldn't use Incite Insect Control because that's not in line with his environment...but grabbing Unseelie Magic using Mimic would absolutely be within his grasp.

Is that understandable?

Yes, but not in a good way.

Theoretically this Power is based off of Mimic Abilities. But Mimic Abilities has well-defined rules for what abilities you can mimic. This doesn't. That's a problem.

Especially since getting abilities with Mimic Abilities is hard, and using this seems to be quite easy.

Title: Re: New Concept/Template: Shaman of the Land
Post by: narphoenix on October 14, 2013, 11:41:45 AM

Quote from: Sanctaphrax on October 14, 2013, 05:16:43 AM

Yes, but not in a good way.

Theoretically this Power is based off of Mimic Abilities. But Mimic Abilities has well-defined rules for what abilities you can mimic. This doesn't. That's a problem.

Especially since getting abilities with Mimic Abilities is hard, and using this seems to be quite easy.

So what do you suggest?

Title: Re: New Concept/Template: Shaman of the Land
Post by: blackstaff67 on October 14, 2013, 12:04:37 PM

This Shaman concept sounds more in line with a person that's--well--bound or tied to a particular region or area; perhaps the size of a county or two, depending on size?  Is that the concept you're aiming at?  Otherwise it sounds like someoen that can mimic or pick up the Aspect of any region he travels to willy-nilly. 

Title: Re: New Concept/Template: Shaman of the Land
Post by: narphoenix on October 14, 2013, 02:56:46 PM

Quote from: blackstaff67 on October 14, 2013, 12:04:37 PM

This Shaman concept sounds more in line with a person that's--well--bound or tied to a particular region or area; perhaps the size of a county or two, depending on size?  Is that the concept you're aiming at?  Otherwise it sounds like someoen that can mimic or pick up the Aspect of any region he travels to willy-nilly.

Essentially, the latter. The Shamans are supposed to be travelers with a fair amount of power behind them. It's just that the kind of power changes based on location.

Title: Re: New Concept/Template: Shaman of the Land
Post by: Sanctaphrax on October 14, 2013, 07:04:02 PM

Quote from: narphoenix on October 14, 2013, 11:41:45 AM

So what do you suggest?

Do a full power writeup, with a description and trappings and skills affected section and everything. Don't say "it works like X, except Y". The power you have in mind here is too novel and too complex for a brief note like the one you have there.

A full writeup will make it easier to see how the power works, what's right/wrong with it, and what needs to be changed.

Or if that sounds like too much work, you could kludge it with Variable Abilities and Limitation.

PS: It occurs to me that this "variable powers, no set list but not totally under your control" set-up is kind of Eidolon-esque. If this goes well, it might be possible to expand Mimic Land to cover his power.

Title: Re: New Concept/Template: Shaman of the Land
Post by: narphoenix on October 14, 2013, 07:31:22 PM

Quote from: Sanctaphrax on October 14, 2013, 07:04:02 PM

Do a full power writeup, with a description and trappings and skills affected section and everything. Don't say "it works like X, except Y". The power you have in mind here is too novel and too complex for a brief note like the one you have there.

A full writeup will make it easier to see how the power works, what's right/wrong with it, and what needs to be changed.

Or if that sounds like too much work, you could kludge it with Variable Abilities and Limitation.

Ok. I'll see what I can do.

Quote

PS: It occurs to me that this "variable powers, no set list but not totally under your control" set-up is kind of Eidolon-esque. If this goes well, it might be possible to expand Mimic Land to cover his power.

SQUEE!

I mean–*ahem*–that sounds cool.

Title: Re: New Concept/Template: Shaman of the Land
Post by: Hick Jr on October 14, 2013, 08:02:33 PM

I was wondering how we were going to model Eidolon. I would have just kludged the Discount Omnipotence and General Shapeshifter Variable Abilities lists together, and let Incite Effect do most of the heavy lifting.


I like the idea, but the actual power lists either requires that you make a bunch of them before play even starts, or that the GM is pretty good about making new lists up for each environment.

Title: Re: New Concept/Template: Shaman of the Land
Post by: Sanctaphrax on October 28, 2013, 04:42:24 AM

Any progress on this?

Title: Re: New Concept/Template: Shaman of the Land
Post by: narphoenix on October 28, 2013, 04:47:13 AM

Quote from: Sanctaphrax on October 28, 2013, 04:42:24 AM

Any progress on this?

A little. I've been really busy lately. I'll probably something crap by this weekend, in the hopes that we can refine it later.

Title: Re: New Concept/Template: Shaman of the Land
Post by: narphoenix on November 01, 2013, 09:26:16 PM

Ok. So I don't have any exact write up. But my basic idea is to term this "Situational Abilities" and tamper with the head cost of Variable Abilities between the lists that are usable and lower it based on how voluntarily you can change your powers, up to giving a [-0] headway for it.

It's what I've got. Not good, but refinable.

Title: Re: New Concept/Template: Shaman of the Land
Post by: easl on November 02, 2013, 02:34:10 AM

Quote from: narphoenix on October 14, 2013, 11:41:45 AM

So what do you suggest?

1. Make it somewhat difficult to gain powers.  Since this is a shaman, how about they must perform a 24-hour "commune with the land" ritual to get them?

2. You don't keep them if you move far from the source.  So, that unseelie magic you got from Arctis Tor doesn't stick with you when you come back to Chicago.  This would also prevent Shamans from becoming grab-bags of powers from different areas.

3. Personally I like the idea of shamans acquiring other groups' sponsored magic...because I'd see it as an opportunity to have them owe favors to lots of other supernatural entities.  I'd have the sponsor insist on a favor for pretty much every use.  And hey, who knows - if the shaman does a good job paying them back and impresses the entity, they could end up with a lot of supernatural friends, too.  That would also be very much in line with the concept, I think.

Just a few suggestions.

Title: Re: New Concept/Template: Shaman of the Land
Post by: Sanctaphrax on November 03, 2013, 12:36:32 AM

Hm.

Seems to me there are five factors that should go into the costing of Situational Abilities.

1. The total Refresh cost of abilities that you can use at a time.
2. The list of abilities that you can draw from.
3. How much effort it takes you to change your selection of abilities.
4. The manner in which the GM determines which abilities you get.
5. How much control you have over when your Powers change.

For Eidolon it would be something like...

1. It varies, but always a lot. Like 20+.
2. Pretty much anything.
3. Very little. A supplemental action suffices to swap out an ability. Though it takes a while for the powers to reach full strength.
4. Whatever would be useful in the current situation, with limited input from Eidolon.
5. Quite a bit, but not a full amount. He can usually choose when to change his abilities and he can swap out some without swapping out them all, but sometimes his abilities change on him involuntarily.

For Steve the shaman of the land it would be more like...

1. 4.
2. Sponsored Magics, physical abilities, some Incite Effects, a few other things.
3. Dunno.
4. Whatever suits the area, maybe with some input from Steve.
5. Not a lot. He can hang onto powers until he leaves the area.

So obviously Steve should be spending less Refresh. Not sure how much less, though.

How does that list of factors sound, and do you have any ideas for designing a costing formula?

Title: Re: New Concept/Template: Shaman of the Land
Post by: narphoenix on November 03, 2013, 02:02:34 AM

Quote from: Sanctaphrax on November 03, 2013, 12:36:32 AM

Hm.

Seems to me there are five factors that should go into the costing of Situational Abilities.

1. The total Refresh cost of abilities that you can use at a time.
2. The list of abilities that you can draw from.
3. How much effort it takes you to change your selection of abilities.
4. The manner in which the GM determines which abilities you get.
5. How much control you have over when your Powers change.

For Eidolon it would be something like...

1. It varies, but always a lot. Like 20+.
2. Pretty much anything.
3. Very little. A supplemental action suffices to swap out an ability. Though it takes a while for the powers to reach full strength.
4. Whatever would be useful in the current situation, with limited input from Eidolon.
5. Quite a bit, but not a full amount. He can usually choose when to change his abilities and he can swap out some without swapping out them all, but sometimes his abilities change on him involuntarily.

For Steve the shaman of the land it would be more like...

1. 4.
2. Sponsored Magics, physical abilities, some Incite Effects, a few other things.
3. Dunno.
4. Whatever suits the area, maybe with some input from Steve.
5. Not a lot. He can hang onto powers until he leaves the area.

So obviously Steve should be spending less Refresh. Not sure how much less, though.

How does that list of factors sound, and do you have any ideas for designing a costing formula?

The list of factors is sound. Also, Shamans can upgrade to get more Mimics than four.

My ideas for the factors are the following:

1. This should be the minimum refresh cost. You do /not/ get to have more abilities than you have refresh spent on this.
2. You already took care of this one. The head costs for the Variable Abilities lists sorts this out nicely.
3. Default is an action, based off of Modular Abilities. Increase cost by one Refresh to knock it down to supplementary. Decrease cost by one Refresh to make this a couple actions.
4. I say you getting full control is the default. You should be reimbursed for losing control. Steve and Eidolon would probably be reimbursed the same amount.
5. Eidolon would get no reimbursement: his is probably just Compelled. Steve would probably be reimbursed, though, by one Refresh.

(Also, Steve probably only needs a Supplementary to change)

Title: Re: New Concept/Template: Shaman of the Land
Post by: Sanctaphrax on November 03, 2013, 05:57:14 PM

Quote from: narphoenix on November 03, 2013, 02:02:34 AM

...Shamans can upgrade to get more Mimics than four.

I know. That's just Steve.

Quote from: narphoenix on November 03, 2013, 02:02:34 AM

1. This should be the minimum refresh cost. You do /not/ get to have more abilities than you have refresh spent on this.

What if your Power deliberately gives you the ability that would be least useful in whatever situation you're in?

Quote from: narphoenix on November 03, 2013, 02:02:34 AM

2. You already took care of this one. The head costs for the Variable Abilities lists sorts this out nicely.

Mm, maybe. Having Psychometry on your Variable Abilities list is awesome, because it's just as good as having it on your character sheet normally. That's not the case for Situational Abilities.

In fact, having more Powers on your Situational Abilities list could be a negative thing in some cases.

Quote from: narphoenix on November 03, 2013, 02:02:34 AM

3. Default is an action, based off of Modular Abilities. Increase cost by one Refresh to knock it down to supplementary. Decrease cost by one Refresh to make this a couple actions.

Sounds okay to me.

Quote from: narphoenix on November 03, 2013, 02:02:34 AM

4. I say you getting full control is the default. You should be reimbursed for losing control. Steve and Eidolon would probably be reimbursed the same amount.

Wait, what?

If people have full control, then how is this different from Variable Abilities?

Quote from: narphoenix on November 03, 2013, 02:02:34 AM

5. Eidolon would get no reimbursement: his is probably just Compelled. Steve would probably be reimbursed, though, by one Refresh.

Sounds like a plan.

Title: Re: New Concept/Template: Shaman of the Land
Post by: narphoenix on November 03, 2013, 06:50:21 PM

Quote from: Sanctaphrax on November 03, 2013, 05:57:14 PM

I know. That's just Steve.

What if your Power deliberately gives you the ability that would be least useful in whatever situation you're in?

Well then, I expect many FPs heading your way in the future.

Quote

Mm, maybe. Having Psychometry on your Variable Abilities list is awesome, because it's just as good as having it on your character sheet normally. That's not the case for Situational Abilities.

In fact, having more Powers on your Situational Abilities list could be a negative thing in some cases.

Like when?

Quote

Sounds okay to me.

Wait, what?

If people have full control, then how is this different from Variable Abilities?

I'm basically making Situational Abilities so that if there's no involuntary part, it sets back to Variable Abilities. That's deliberate.

Quote

Sounds like a plan.

Cool.

Title: Re: New Concept/Template: Shaman of the Land
Post by: Sanctaphrax on November 03, 2013, 10:00:48 PM

Quote from: narphoenix on November 03, 2013, 06:50:21 PM

Well then, I expect many FPs heading your way in the future.

I don't think that's a good idea. Handling things with Compels should generally be the last resort.

Particularly in this case, since if the set of abilities you get from your Power is a Compel then it's not clear what you'll get if you refuse the Compel.

Quote from: narphoenix on November 03, 2013, 06:50:21 PM

Like when?

If Ritual (Divination), Supernatural Sense, and Psychometry are on your list, then you may get stuck with them when you want a combat power.

Quote from: narphoenix on November 03, 2013, 06:50:21 PM

I'm basically making Situational Abilities so that if there's no involuntary part, it sets back to Variable Abilities. That's deliberate.

I'm not sure whether that's a good plan. Hard to explain why, but it seems dubious to me.

Also, if that's the case, I'm pretty sure Steve should be reimbursed more than Eidolon unless the land is really really permissive.

Title: Re: New Concept/Template: Shaman of the Land
Post by: Taran on November 04, 2013, 12:15:40 AM

Why not have a few templates:

City-scape
Desert
Forest
Ocean
Etc...

Have a power-list based on each.  Use modular abilities and maybe true shape-shifting to get the skill swaps

If you want some randomness, make sure you choose 2-5 refresh more than your total for each template and have the GM choose the first few while you choose the rest OR let the Player always choose, but when there's a reason to, have the GM compel the player to take one or more less useful powers or choose the power-list for the player.

I also like the idea of having an Attunement time to align oneself with the current spirit of the land.

Specific sponsored magic (as was mentioned by someone else) could be a choice in certain lists.

Lastly, Sponsored magic (Places of Power) could be another way of doing it (or in addition to doing it.)

Take the same list and give each location a theme(ex: desert: fire, air, desiccation).  Take sponsored magic - as a permanent power -  and have the theme/effects differ depending on the locale.

I don't think it needs to be too complicated.

Title: Re: New Concept/Template: Shaman of the Land
Post by: vultur on November 04, 2013, 01:40:11 AM

I'm sorry, but I don't see why this has to be a new Power.

I'd make it Modular Abilities (with the 2 Refresh surcharge). Maybe a 1 Refresh rebate/Limitation for being limited to abilities appropriate to your environment, but since Modular Abilities already expects a limited list rather than "all powers ever", maybe not. Definitely a rebate if you have to spend time to "attune".

Then I'd make generic lists for terrain types, rather than having to make a new list for every single place in the world.

(EDIT: And now I see Taran just posted the same thing...)

Example Lists

(click to show/hide)

These are made with powers from YS only. Add in custom powers to taste, I don't have time to go through the whole custom power list right now.

GENERAL (available anywhere)
Psychometry [-1]
Supernatural Sense [-1?] (Detect disruptions to the environment, whatever it is. Would detect a fire anywhere, logging in a forest, flooding in a city or dry land environment [but not a wetland]. Would not detect cutting down trees in a city or destruction of a house in an otherwise natural setting -- only things incongruous with the broader landscape. Assume something has to be at least a square mile to be "broader landscape", not every tiny park in a city. Range is about a mile or so for big disruptions like a forest fire, less for small things.)

URBAN
Channeling (Metal) [-2]
Echoes of the Beast (any urban animal, e.g. dog, housecat, rat, pigeon, cockroach...) [-1]
Inhuman/Supernatural Toughness [-2/-4]  - draw upon the steel skeletons of buildings for immense resilience
Inhuman/Supernatural Speed [-2/-4] - draw upon the speed of cars
Spider Walk [-1]

DESERT
Breath Weapon [-2] (fire)
Echoes of the Beast (any desert animal) [-1]
Channeling (Fire) [-2]
Inhuman/Supernatural Speed [-2/-4]
Inhuman/Supernatural Toughness [-2/-4]

FOREST
Channeling (Wood) [-2]
Cloak of Shadows [-1]
Echoes of the Beast (any forest animal) [-1]
Inhuman/Supernatural Recovery [-2/-4]
Inhuman/Supernatural Toughness [-2/-4]
Spider Walk [-1]

WETLAND/AQUATIC*
Aquatic [-1]
Breath Weapon [-2] (acid)
Channeling (Water) [-2]
Inhuman/Supernatural Recovery [-2/-4] -- water finds its own level, flowing in to replace any that is removed
Inhuman/Supernatural Strength [-2/-4] -- strike with the power of waves/flowing water

*I would limit this to significant wetlands / bodies of water, not every tiny pond or stream.

I would say that adding in lists for Grassland/Savanna and perhaps Ice/Arctic/High Mountains would cover pretty much anyplace.

Title: Re: New Concept/Template: Shaman of the Land
Post by: Sanctaphrax on November 05, 2013, 03:23:11 AM

Yeah, I guess that could work.

But I like the idea of Situational Abilities. Eidolon isn't the only other character I'd want to use it for. So I still want to create it, even if it's not strictly necessary here.