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The Dresden Files => DF Spoilers => Topic started by: Griffyn612 on October 01, 2020, 07:31:58 PM

Title: Is Harry OP? [Battle Ground Spoilers]
Post by: Griffyn612 on October 01, 2020, 07:31:58 PM
As of now, Harry has, in his possession or access to, the following:

He's related to, best friends with, or engaged/married to

Am I forgetting anything? 

Seriously, he's got a ton of crap.  That's not even counting his friendly acquaintances (Uriel, Vadderung, Erlking), his middling power-level friends (Thomas, a pack of Werewolves, River), and his potential resource of professional hires (Goodman, Binder, Kincaid).

I feel like at this point, if Harry were to start wearing the Shroud as a cape (to help heal him on the go), he might be unstoppable.  And if he were to get the Blackstaff like many speculate, then what could possibly stop him?  Other than an iron-rich waterfall?
Title: Re: Is Harry OP? [Battle Ground Spoilers]
Post by: Rigil Kent on October 01, 2020, 07:36:00 PM
It certainly makes one understand why the White Council is afraid of him. Wait until they hear about the engagement!
Title: Re: Is Harry OP? [Battle Ground Spoilers]
Post by: Thana†os on October 01, 2020, 07:39:00 PM
But does anyone really know he has or has access to ALL of that, other than the readers? and himself, of course.
Title: Re: Is Harry OP? [Battle Ground Spoilers]
Post by: BrainFireBob on October 01, 2020, 07:43:38 PM
Which is why it's going to be about mirroring and politics and then the apocalypse.

Harry's become a high-end middleweight. It is no longer worth trying to take him out via slugging match. It'll go badly even if you win.

So the arena his enemies target him in changes.

Mirror Mirror will be about him against an alternate Harry. I'm sure this alternate Harry has embraced powerful upgrades like a low-level Darkhallow or similar, and he's been able to overcome other alternate Harrys by outclassing them- and "our" Harry is the first one on his power level. If it's Highlander rules, our Harry needs to convince alt Harry to take the hit. I'm veering towards alt Harry doesn't have a Maggie or lost his. Harry ends up with some artifact or something he lost restored, like his kinetic energy rings or fancy shield bracelet. Maybe the classic Maggie/Bonea has the gun on the two of them.

Next book will be politics, and needing to fight, say, Langtry where Langtry excels.

Then the Apocalypse, where it's not he can't deal with any threat, but it's the equivalent of 16 Ethnius striking at once and he can only take them 1:1.
Title: Re: Is Harry OP? [Battle Ground Spoilers]
Post by: Griffyn612 on October 01, 2020, 07:53:44 PM
But does anyone really know he has or has access to ALL of that, other than the readers? and himself, of course.
The White Council officially knows about the island and ley line.  The Gray Council knows about Bob and Amoracchius from Changes.  Seems likely that at least Vadderung knows about the items from Hades vault, given his habit of knowing things.  Someone recognized Margaret's necklace in BG (can't recall who at the moment).  The Eye of Balor is highly suspected.  Everyone saw the Little Folk answer his call.

I'd say it should be very obvious to everyone that he's OP.

It certainly makes one understand why the White Council is afraid of him. Wait until they hear about the engagement!
Poor Carlos.  If only he'd been a little more understanding, Harry might have let him take a nap with the Shroud for a bit.

Which is why it's going to be about mirroring and politics and then the apocalypse.

Harry's become a high-end middleweight. It is no longer worth trying to take him out via slugging match. It'll go badly even if you win.

So the arena his enemies target him in changes.

Mirror Mirror will be about him against an alternate Harry. I'm sure this alternate Harry has embraced powerful upgrades like a low-level Darkhallow or similar, and he's been able to overcome other alternate Harrys by outclassing them- and "our" Harry is the first one on his power level. If it's Highlander rules, our Harry needs to convince alt Harry to take the hit. I'm veering towards alt Harry doesn't have a Maggie or lost his. Harry ends up with some artifact or something he lost restored, like his kinetic energy rings or fancy shield bracelet. Maybe the classic Maggie/Bonea has the gun on the two of them.

Next book will be politics, and needing to fight, say, Langtry where Langtry excels.

Then the Apocalypse, where it's not he can't deal with any threat, but it's the equivalent of 16 Ethnius striking at once and he can only take them 1:1.
I think we've got Mirror Mirror, the wrestling book, and maybe two to three more casefiles before the BAT.  Should be interesting to see where things end up, but I'm wondering how long it'll be before he ends up becoming the Baron of Chicago himself.  I figured Marcone would last until the BAT, playing the Uther to Harry's Merlin, but I'm not so sure now.
Title: Re: Is Harry OP? [Battle Ground Spoilers]
Post by: Rigil Kent on October 01, 2020, 07:56:40 PM
Someone recognized Margaret's necklace in BG (can't recall who at the moment).
The Erlking, I think. When Harry said she was his mom, he made a comment about how that explained some things about Harry & Susan and the Eebs crashing his place in "Changes."
Title: Re: Is Harry OP? [Battle Ground Spoilers]
Post by: Griffyn612 on October 01, 2020, 08:02:07 PM
The Erlking, I think. When Harry said she was his mom, he made a comment about how that explained some things about Harry & Susan and the Eebs crashing his place in "Changes."
Right.  So things are known by most.  And you know how the magical community just loves to share info and rumor.

Wait, they don't?  Well still.  I think some of that word will be shared.
Title: Re: Is Harry OP? [Battle Ground Spoilers]
Post by: BrainFireBob on October 01, 2020, 08:02:39 PM
The White Council officially knows about the island and ley line.  The Gray Council knows about Bob and Amoracchius from Changes.  Seems likely that at least Vadderung knows about the items from Hades vault, given his habit of knowing things.  Someone recognized Margaret's necklace in BG (can't recall who at the moment).  The Eye of Balor is highly suspected.  Everyone saw the Little Folk answer his call.

I'd say it should be very obvious to everyone that he's OP.
Poor Carlos.  If only he'd been a little more understanding, Harry might have let him take a nap with the Shroud for a bit.
I think we've got Mirror Mirror, the wrestling book, and maybe two to three more casefiles before the BAT.  Should be interesting to see where things end up, but I'm wondering how long it'll be before he ends up becoming the Baron of Chicago himself.  I figured Marcone would last until the BAT, playing the Uther to Harry's Merlin, but I'm not so sure now.

The WoJ on reincarnation - I don't like the idea of Harry being Merlin, unless Marcone is the reincarnated Arthur.
Title: Re: Is Harry OP? [Battle Ground Spoilers]
Post by: Griffyn612 on October 01, 2020, 08:07:10 PM
The WoJ on reincarnation - I don't like the idea of Harry being Merlin, unless Marcone is the reincarnated Arthur.
I don't really mean reincarnation or anything, I just mean that the parallels between them are very Uther/Merlin, with one being an asshole leader of men and one being the outcast wizard that has to work with him until a more suitable leader comes along to replace him. 
Title: Re: Is Harry OP? [Battle Ground Spoilers]
Post by: Eleyctra on October 01, 2020, 08:17:20 PM
Wait, what was the info on the wrestling book? I heard it once years ago, but thought Jim was just joking. Do we have any extra info on it?
Title: Re: Is Harry OP? [Battle Ground Spoilers]
Post by: Rigil Kent on October 01, 2020, 08:18:03 PM
Right.  So things are known by most.  And you know how the magical community just loves to share info and rumor.

Wait, they don't?  Well still.  I think some of that word will be shared.
To be fair, Eb and Odin were there at the same time. Granted, Eb knew, but in the (unlikely) event that old One Eye didn't, well, he does now. :)
Title: Re: Is Harry OP? [Battle Ground Spoilers]
Post by: Mira on October 01, 2020, 08:33:12 PM
Quote
The White Council officially knows about the island and ley line.  The Gray Council knows about Bob and Amoracchius from Changes.  Seems likely that at least Vadderung knows about the items from Hades vault, given his habit of knowing things.  Someone recognized Margaret's necklace in BG (can't recall who at the moment).  The Eye of Balor is highly suspected.  Everyone saw the Little Folk answer his call.

Yes and no, as far as the island goes, when Harry tells Eb in Peace Talks he could always go and live on the island.  Eb makes the comment about how most of the Council hasn't a clue of what the island is.  I think so far only Rashid and Eb know what it really is about, at least in print.
Title: Re: Is Harry OP? [Battle Ground Spoilers]
Post by: Yuillegan on October 02, 2020, 04:24:36 AM
Wait, what was the info on the wrestling book? I heard it once years ago, but thought Jim was just joking. Do we have any extra info on it?
Not much beyond it's a battle of the various Gods and we will learn a bit more about them. I suspect it will be a bit ridiculous and dramatic, of course.
I do hope Jim does it well because it could come off as cheesy and then it would be really boring.

Yes and no, as far as the island goes, when Harry tells Eb in Peace Talks he could always go and live on the island.  Eb makes the comment about how most of the Council hasn't a clue of what the island is.  I think so far only Rashid and Eb know what it really is about, at least in print.
Per WOJ, the Senior Council know about Demonreach's true nature (come on, they wouldn't be SC if they didn't know big stuff). They just were too afraid individually to claim it as it would give the rest of them a chance to call the person who claimed it a traitor and have them killed. But they also need the firepower apparently that the island represents, and because they assume Harry only claimed it because he seems just so stupid to them, they tolerated him being Warden. Might not anymore...

In any case, Harry isn't OP. Not by a long shot. Yeah, he has a bunch of tools. But that just means he can play in the big boy league. If he isn't on Demonreach, if he is separated from his Arma Christi, if he runs out of magic etc. Yes he has allies, but so do his enemies. Arguably, they have scarier ones. And Kincaid showed that at the end of the day a bullet from over a mile away is effective enough (which fits right into Jim's whole "humans are actually scary because technology" thing...)

Yes, if Harry goes gunning for someone or a group of someones he can be a real terror. But even Ethniu despite all her preparation and weapons and allies was defeated. At the end of the day, there will always be someone uniquely suited to beating Harry. So Harry's best bet isn't to try and take on everyone. Just the ones he can manage. Of course, life isn't always so easy like that...
Title: Re: Is Harry OP? [Battle Ground Spoilers]
Post by: TheCuriousFan on October 02, 2020, 05:16:49 AM
As of now, Harry has, in his possession or access to, the following:
  • A prison of gods, demigods, demons, monsters, and other assorted things, which he can (apparently) release and control, in part or in whole, at his whim.
  • Access to a dark lay line source that he could potentially tap with preparation for a spell or spells, similar to how the Denarians used it.
  • The Sword of Love.
  • The Spear of Destiny.
  • The Placard of Christ.
  • The Shroud of Turin.
  • The Crown of Thorns.
  • The Eye of Balor.
  • Castle Wyvern Dresden.
  • The Winter Knight mantle.
  • Third+ Generation Wizard bloodline.
  • Margaret's Knowledge of Ways.
  • Bob 'Marty Stu' the Skull.
  • A defacto army of tens of thousands of Little Folk.

He's related to, best friends with, or engaged/married to
  • The Blackstaff.
  • The Sword of Hope bearer.
  • The Sword of Faith bearer.
  • The Winter Lady.
  • The Winter Queen.
  • The (secret) White Queen.

Am I forgetting anything? 

Seriously, he's got a ton of crap.  That's not even counting his friendly acquaintances (Uriel, Vadderung, Erlking), his middling power-level friends (Thomas, a pack of Werewolves, River), and his potential resource of professional hires (Goodman, Binder, Kincaid).

I feel like at this point, if Harry were to start wearing the Shroud as a cape (to help heal him on the go), he might be unstoppable.  And if he were to get the Blackstaff like many speculate, then what could possibly stop him?  Other than an iron-rich waterfall?
He's probably getting tons of magic artifacts because they're much easier to take away as needed for the plot compared to boosts in skill or raw power.
Title: Re: Is Harry OP? [Battle Ground Spoilers]
Post by: Griffyn612 on October 02, 2020, 05:30:13 AM
He's probably getting tons of magic artifacts because they're much easier to take away as needed for the plot compared to boosts in skill or raw power.
That reminds me, he's got Soulfire too.
Title: Re: Is Harry OP? [Battle Ground Spoilers]
Post by: Bacail on October 02, 2020, 08:02:53 AM
  • Castle Wyvern Dresden.

I wonder if the castle has any Gargoyles or Grotesques featuring on its battlements.....
Title: Re: Is Harry OP? [Battle Ground Spoilers]
Post by: Griffyn612 on October 02, 2020, 09:09:55 PM
I wonder if the castle has any Gargoyles or Grotesques featuring on its battlements.....
It does!  One at each corner and one in the middle of the battlements on each level of the four stories.  It's mentioned in Ghost Story.  I'm entirely expecting them to be automated defense drones.
Title: Re: Is Harry OP? [Battle Ground Spoilers]
Post by: magical_liopleurodon on October 02, 2020, 09:18:27 PM
That reminds me, he's got Soulfire too.
And he has power over Outsiders ie Starborn
Title: Re: Is Harry OP? [Battle Ground Spoilers]
Post by: Professor Q on October 02, 2020, 11:19:08 PM
He also has Bonea.
Title: Re: Is Harry OP? [Battle Ground Spoilers]
Post by: Griffyn612 on October 02, 2020, 11:32:24 PM
And he has power over Outsiders ie Starborn
He also has Bonea.
Yup, added both, thanks!
Title: Re: Is Harry OP? [Battle Ground Spoilers]
Post by: forumghost on October 03, 2020, 01:41:42 AM
Harry has tons of Weapons, but little ability to use them.

Seriously, Marcone got 1 power-up and it has him pulling out Magic that would let him trash Harry in spite of all his toys.
Butters took one of Harry's Hand-me-downs (bob) and made better use of it then Harry ever did, turning himself into Magitech Batman before he became a Jedi.
Carlos proves in this book just how much better he is then Harry at Magic with AoE Disintegration Magic.

So no, Harry isn't OP. He's a scrub that has a bunch of Nuclear Launch Codes- which in a way is far scarier.
Title: Re: Is Harry OP? [Battle Ground Spoilers]
Post by: Professor Q on October 03, 2020, 02:13:04 AM
I can't believe that I forgot about Mouse. Even Ancient Mai was impressed by the foo dog. (Of course it's more that Mouse has Harry than the other way round.)
Title: Re: Is Harry OP? [Battle Ground Spoilers]
Post by: Sev Expar on October 03, 2020, 03:58:27 AM
No.
Also, what do you mean?
Versus the wannabe wizards from the short story? Yes. Also, he would walk over most of the foes from the first half of the books.
Harry's been leveling up for almost twenty years.
In the RPG sense, Harry's the adventuring wizard gaining experience MUCH faster than his homebound brothers and sisters.
Anastasia says once that Harry's seen more than most wizards many times his age.
In the game sense? Yes, if he was a player character, maybe not if he was an NPC (especially a antogonist vs. a an RPG party).
Jim knows what's coming and is leveling and equipping Harry for it.
"OP" doesn't mean "A lot of power", it means "So much power it's not fun anymore".
In that sense, we have to trust that Jim is balancing Harry's powers, allies, gear, and item for the foes and challengers coming.
Title: Re: Is Harry OP? [Battle Ground Spoilers]
Post by: Arjan on October 03, 2020, 06:09:00 AM
The powers are combined with weaknesses. He is still vulnerable in some ways. To resolve that he has to become immortal and I don’t see that happen until the end of the series.
Title: Re: Is Harry OP? [Battle Ground Spoilers]
Post by: Bad Alias on October 03, 2020, 06:46:01 AM
The Gray Council knows about Bob and Amoracchius from Changes.
Bob was hiding in Murphy's gun after the battle. I'm not sure the Grey Council knows.

But they also need the firepower apparently that the island represents, and because they assume Harry only claimed it because he seems just so stupid to them, they tolerated him being Warden.
It wasn't entirely clear to me whether Jim meant they needed the firepower the island represents or the firepower Harry represented. The Vampire War was still on at the time. Harry himself being ever so slightly too useful reminds me of a quote about how one character, had he been a peasant, he would have been ever so slightly too good at his job to have flogged to death.
Title: Re: Is Harry OP? [Battle Ground Spoilers]
Post by: Arjan on October 03, 2020, 07:36:40 AM
Bob was hiding in Murphy's gun after the battle. I'm not sure the Grey Council knows.
They don’t know about Bob. Ebenezer would go ballistic and wanted it destroyed or something like that.
Title: Re: Is Harry OP? [Battle Ground Spoilers]
Post by: Griffyn612 on October 03, 2020, 02:47:26 PM
Bob was swirling around people's heads during the battle, wasn't he? I mean maybe it went unnoticed?
Title: Re: Is Harry OP? [Battle Ground Spoilers]
Post by: Arjan on October 03, 2020, 02:49:29 PM
Bob was swirling around people's heads during the battle, wasn't he? I mean maybe it went unnoticed?
Bb knows what he is doing and the last thing he wants is the white council noticing him.
Title: Re: Is Harry OP? [Battle Ground Spoilers]
Post by: Bad Alias on October 03, 2020, 06:38:55 PM
Bob was swirling around people's heads during the battle, wasn't he? I mean maybe it went unnoticed?
He was hiding for a reason. I assume he was hiding from someone. I just don't know who. It wasn't Molly at that point. It might have just been out of an abundance of caution of Harry's part. He doesn't want people knowing about Bob because how dangerous Bob could be in the wrong hands.
Title: Re: Is Harry OP? [Battle Ground Spoilers]
Post by: Griffyn612 on October 03, 2020, 06:56:34 PM
He was hiding for a reason. I assume he was hiding from someone. I just don't know who. It wasn't Molly at that point. It might have just been out of an abundance of caution of Harry's part. He doesn't want people knowing about Bob because how dangerous Bob could be in the wrong hands.
I was under the impression he was hiding from the rising sun.
Title: Re: Is Harry OP? [Battle Ground Spoilers]
Post by: Arjan on October 03, 2020, 07:08:00 PM
I was under the impression he was hiding from  the rising sun.
That too.

But Luccio was quite clear about what the council thought about Bob in Small Favor and Bob knows.
Title: Re: Is Harry OP? [Battle Ground Spoilers]
Post by: forumghost on October 03, 2020, 07:14:06 PM
That too.

But Luccio was quite clear about what the council thought about Bob in Small Favor and Bob knows.

Poor Bob, the Council and Mab want to off him, everyone else wants to weaponize him. Harry and Butters are probably the closest he's had to friends.
Title: Re: Is Harry OP? [Battle Ground Spoilers]
Post by: Bad Alias on October 03, 2020, 07:23:39 PM
I was under the impression he was hiding from the rising sun.
No. He would have been fried in the gun. It isn't a sanctum. He could have just flown over to the skull if that's what he was worried about.

Quote
"About time," Bob whispered back. "Sunrise is almost here. You trying to get me cooked?"
Title: Re: Is Harry OP? [Battle Ground Spoilers]
Post by: Griffyn612 on October 03, 2020, 07:42:47 PM
No. He would have been fried in the gun. It isn't a sanctum. He could have just flown over to the skull if that's what he was worried about.
Oh, right, I thought he went in to hide from the sunrise.  So probably mostly hiding out of self-preservation, but again, he was hovering around heads for a few minutes.  Hard to imagine no-one noticed. But just because they might have seen doesn't mean they would necessarily recognize or share amongst themselves. 
Title: Re: Is Harry OP? [Battle Ground Spoilers]
Post by: Arjan on October 03, 2020, 07:46:43 PM
Oh, right, I thought he went in to hide from the sunrise.  So probably mostly hiding out of self-preservation, but again, he was hovering around heads for a few minutes.  Hard to imagine no-one noticed. But just because they might have seen doesn't mean they would necessarily recognize or share amongst themselves.
There was a lot going on and everyone thinks Bob is dead. Luccio talked about him as gone. Connecting one more strange thing with Bob is not to be expected.
Title: Re: Is Harry OP? [Battle Ground Spoilers]
Post by: Greywolf on October 04, 2020, 05:54:43 AM
Re: Grey Council and Bob: it’s possible that at Chichen Itza the Grey Council, if anyone noticed the Bob-halo, attributed it to TWG. If I recall correctly he was mostly halo-ing Murph, right? And she was in full-on-angel-possession-mode? I think it’s likely that if anyone saw it they’d assume it was angelic presence, and I don’t think anyone tipped wise to Bob.
Title: Re: Is Harry OP? [Battle Ground Spoilers]
Post by: Shift8 on October 04, 2020, 04:24:44 PM
As of now, Harry has, in his possession or access to, the following:
  • A prison of gods, demigods, demons, monsters, and other assorted things, which he can (apparently) release and control, in part or in whole, at his whim.
  • Access to a dark lay line source that he could potentially tap with preparation for a spell or spells, similar to how the Denarians used it.
  • The Sword of Love.
  • The Spear of Destiny.
  • The Placard of Christ.
  • The Shroud of Turin.
  • The Crown of Thorns.
  • The Eye of Balor.
  • Castle Wyvern Dresden.
  • The Winter Knight mantle.
  • Third+ Generation Wizard bloodline.
  • Soulfire
  • Starborn power
  • Margaret's Knowledge of Ways.
  • Bob 'Marty Stu' the Skull.
  • Bonea's Angelic Knowledge (if not wisdom)
  • A defacto army of tens of thousands of Little Folk.

He's related to, best friends with, or engaged/married to
  • The Blackstaff.
  • The Sword of Hope bearer.
  • The Sword of Faith bearer.
  • The Winter Lady.
  • The Winter Queen.
  • The (secret) White Queen.

Am I forgetting anything? 

Seriously, he's got a ton of crap.  That's not even counting his friendly acquaintances (Uriel, Vadderung, Erlking), his middling power-level friends (Thomas, a pack of Werewolves, River), and his potential resource of professional hires (Goodman, Binder, Kincaid).

I feel like at this point, if Harry were to start wearing the Shroud as a cape (to help heal him on the go), he might be unstoppable.  And if he were to get the Blackstaff like many speculate, then what could possibly stop him?  Other than an iron-rich waterfall?

I just jumped in so forgive my not being at whatever point this thread is at but I just responding to first post for now.

The WC now has it out for Harry and he stated his intention to operate as the Wizard of Chicago in open defiance. I think he is going to need all the trinkets and friends he can get to fend them off. Personally I hope he does because I hope in the end he is standing on a mound of WC bodies.
Title: Re: Is Harry OP? [Battle Ground Spoilers]
Post by: Arjan on October 04, 2020, 04:35:31 PM
The white council first needs a reason good enough for Mab not to take offence when the white council attack her knight. They can not afford the enmity or winter.
Title: Re: Is Harry OP? [Battle Ground Spoilers]
Post by: ClintACK on October 05, 2020, 12:25:25 AM
I bet Ethniu thought she was OP, too.

Got her dad's Eye stuffed in her head, and impenetrable armor, and a huge army, and a vast undersea realm beyond the reach of wizards and mortals alike.

Literal gods came at her and she smacked them down like flies.

Where is she now?
Title: Re: Is Harry OP? [Battle Ground Spoilers]
Post by: Griffyn612 on October 05, 2020, 01:35:57 AM
I bet Ethniu thought she was OP, too.

Got her dad's Eye stuffed in her head, and impenetrable armor, and a huge army, and a vast undersea realm beyond the reach of wizards and mortals alike.

Literal gods came at her and she smacked them down like flies.

Where is she now?
Good point. She was wearing the armor when she was taken by Alfred.  And it's been said Harry can release parts of prisoners, yes?

So maybe he releases the armor and gives Alfred a Christmas present?
Title: Re: Is Harry OP? [Battle Ground Spoilers]
Post by: Snark Knight on October 05, 2020, 02:10:26 AM
If I recall correctly he was mostly halo-ing Murph, right? And she was in full-on-angel-possession-mode? I think it’s likely that if anyone saw it they’d assume it was angelic presence, and I don’t think anyone tipped wise to Bob.

And if any of the Grey Council had engaged Bob during the fighting with Kemmler, they'd be familiar with the blue Evil Bob, doing a whole lot more actively destructive stuff. Drastically changing tactics with the removed memories and glowing a different colour is a decent casual disguise ... even if most of them recognized Harry's squad had a spirit being helping them, the don't have reason to connect that it's /that/ spirit being.

Now, on the general topic of things that make Harry scary, it's yet to pan out, but his "they're looking now; let them find something positive" strategy seems to be about laying groundwork toward eventual contact with the vanilla authorities. I don't doubt the Librarians are going to be somewhere between inconvenient and antagonistic for a while, because, hey, it's Jim writing this. But longer term, when they're ready to reach out to someone to make contact with, the monster-slayer who advertised in the Yellow Pages is probably going to look better than supernatural nations they're starting to see the outlines of but are trying to hide. In practical terms, good relations with the mundane authorities would actually be more useful in a lot of ways than something like the ability to let horrors out of Demonreach.

If you think the Council is pissed and frightened now, just imagine the apoplexy if, around about book 19 or 20, Harry is leveling up from consultant to SI to consultant to Interpol and the UN security council. You want to kill the guy who's talking to the mortals about how to protect themselves from another supernatural attack? Enjoy your new #1 spot on the list of things they think they have to protect themselves from.

At this point I really want to see Ramirez drop by to spot-check Harry's conduct, and barge in on Harry hosting some feds he's on good terms with for a chat. Explaining that one of the secretive nations has someone under a suspended death sentence for going too far in defending Chicago would be a /great/ look for the Council in front of mortal authorities.
Title: Re: Is Harry OP? [Battle Ground Spoilers]
Post by: Yuillegan on October 05, 2020, 04:04:39 AM
^^ Agreed. I do expect the Librarians to be a challenging foe (based on Lara's description) but like a lot of things that have been powerful initially, to get nerfed to be in-line with the rest. I suspect they already have a file on the openly operating Wizard. Hopefully, that ends up in Harry's favor.

I am with you in that it would be great to see Dresden become a consultant to the UN or something on the supernatural (assuming one doesn't exist already...) and making himself far more untouchable than he was as a member of the White Council. It's about time those smug bastards got a reality check.
Title: Re: Is Harry OP? [Battle Ground Spoilers]
Post by: Bad Alias on October 05, 2020, 05:12:53 AM
In practical terms, good relations with the mundane authorities would actually be more useful in a lot of ways than something like the ability to let horrors out of Demonreach.

If you think the Council is pissed and frightened now, just imagine the apoplexy if, around about book 19 or 20, Harry is leveling up from consultant to SI to consultant to Interpol and the UN security council. You want to kill the guy who's talking to the mortals about how to protect themselves from another supernatural attack? Enjoy your new #1 spot on the list of things they think they have to protect themselves from.

At this point I really want to see Ramirez drop by to spot-check Harry's conduct, and barge in on Harry hosting some feds he's on good terms with for a chat. Explaining that one of the secretive nations has someone under a suspended death sentence for going too far in defending Chicago would be a /great/ look for the Council in front of mortal authorities.
All pretty solid. My only counter argument is "would Jim make it that easy on Harry?"
Title: Re: Is Harry OP? [Battle Ground Spoilers]
Post by: forumghost on October 05, 2020, 05:26:57 AM
At this point I really want to see Ramirez drop by to spot-check Harry's conduct, and barge in on Harry hosting some feds he's on good terms with for a chat. Explaining that one of the secretive nations has someone under a suspended death sentence for going too far in defending Chicago would be a /great/ look for the Council in front of mortal authorities.

I feel like this would go against Harry's goals of not starting a war between the Muggles and the Magical World.
Title: Re: Is Harry OP? [Battle Ground Spoilers]
Post by: Mira on October 05, 2020, 06:10:31 AM


  Listen to Mab, the White Council is going to realize that they need that wolf and take him back.  At the moment they see him as a monster. But I bet inside of a book or two, Harry is going to confront them about something as Rashid predicted, and they will realize, he is their monster.
Title: Re: Is Harry OP? [Battle Ground Spoilers]
Post by: Snark Knight on October 05, 2020, 07:40:49 PM
I feel like this would go against Harry's goals of not starting a war between the Muggles and the Magical World.

That depends how fine of a line he's willing to walk in explaining the Council to the mortals. "Self-righteous pricks, but mostly harmless to you guys" is true, while leaving enough room that killing him would raise a lot of questions about the "mostly". 'Mostly harmless' like a three-fer - politically astute, a pop culture reference, and it would flip the bird at the Council who think they're so hot.
Title: Re: Is Harry OP? [Battle Ground Spoilers]
Post by: TrueMonk on October 05, 2020, 10:07:03 PM

  Listen to Mab, the White Council is going to realize that they need that wolf and take him back.  At the moment they see him as a monster. But I bet inside of a book or two, Harry is going to confront them about something as Rashid predicted, and they will realize, he is their monster.

I cant remember this, when did Rashid say it?
Title: Re: Is Harry OP? [Battle Ground Spoilers]
Post by: TheCuriousFan on October 05, 2020, 10:08:31 PM
I cant remember this, when did Rashid say it?
In Turn Coat he tells Harry that it's not yet time for him to confront the White Council.
Title: Re: Is Harry OP? [Battle Ground Spoilers]
Post by: morriswalters on October 05, 2020, 10:32:09 PM
I cant remember this, when did Rashid say it?
Quote from: Turn Coat
“And I cannot permit you to openly challenge the White Council to battle.”

“No?” I asked, thrusting out my jaw. “Why not?”

His deep, resonant voice sounded troubled. “It is not yet your hour.”

I felt my eyebrows go up. “Not yet . . . ?”
Title: Re: Is Harry OP? [Battle Ground Spoilers]
Post by: TrueMonk on October 05, 2020, 11:36:57 PM
Thanks a lot :-)

But in that case I guess he more or less openly defied them just now?
Title: Re: Is Harry OP? [Battle Ground Spoilers]
Post by: Arjan on October 05, 2020, 11:53:20 PM
Thanks a lot :-)

But in that case I guess he more or less openly defied them just now?
Not really. He just told them what he was going to do but they have no authority over him now. It is when they tell him what to do and he says no.
Title: Re: Is Harry OP? [Battle Ground Spoilers]
Post by: Griffyn612 on October 06, 2020, 03:03:06 AM
They think they have authority over him because they think they have authority over all human practitioners. So they might very well try to act tough at some point, but there's no-one left to come be a big hammer, other than sending a Senior Council member. Not unless Luccio is regaining some ground.
Title: Re: Is Harry OP? [Battle Ground Spoilers]
Post by: Mira on October 06, 2020, 04:29:11 AM


Oh there will be another crisis, the foundation was set down at the Accords meeting at the end of Battle Ground.  First thing Harry noticed was there were no White Council members in attendance.
Question, did they boycott the meeting for some reason?  Or were they excluded for some reason?
Either way at some point or another that is going to come to a head, and Harry will be in the middle of it.  It might be at the BAT that it happens or another crisis but at some point Harry will have to wake them up and shake them up to what is happening in their world.
Title: Re: Is Harry OP? [Battle Ground Spoilers]
Post by: ClintACK on October 07, 2020, 12:27:10 AM
Re: Harry and the Feds/Librarians...

Worth remembering that Lara has been working hard to insinuate herself into the federal government. Back in Changes, she was able to whistle up a helicopter from an aircraft carrier to evacuate the wounded from Chichen Itza. (Which means the Feds have a report somewhere about Molly and Mouse...)

The next time Harry sits down for a chat with the feds, it won't be as a two-bit P.I. terror suspect whose office was just blown up. He'll be the fiancé of an influence peddler with hooks in senators and governors and cabinet officials.

Of course, that comes with all kinds of costs. Some honest feds like Tilly may be far more suspicious of him because of that. And the White Court comes with a new level of social infighting and manipulation on levels that aren't really Harry's strong suit.

(See the Dresdenfiles RPG, with its three modes of combat -- physical, mental, and social. The last is Harry's weak spot. He's at an insane Superb(+5) for Conviction, used for mental conflict, what he'd describe as will or willpower, but an awful Average(+1) for Presence, used for social conflict.)

His next big power-up is going to have to be learning to manage his reputation and relationships better. Heck, Peace Talks/Battle Ground *should* have taught him that. Now Mab's throwing him in the deep end of the White Court where he'll either learn or die.
Title: Re: Is Harry OP? [Battle Ground Spoilers]
Post by: Snark Knight on October 07, 2020, 12:44:19 AM
The next time Harry sits down for a chat with the feds, it won't be as a two-bit P.I. terror suspect whose office was just blown up. He'll be the fiancé of an influence peddler with hooks in senators and governors and cabinet officials.

Of course, that comes with all kinds of costs. Some honest feds like Tilly may be far more suspicious of him because of that.

That sounds like an excellent reason to play the engagement close to his vest, and not lean on any of Lara's contacts for any discussions with the feds.

For the time being, all he's obliged to do is appear with her at unspecified supernatural social events and conferences.
Title: Re: Is Harry OP? [Battle Ground Spoilers]
Post by: ClintACK on October 07, 2020, 12:49:24 AM
Actually, what I'd really like to see is the Feds/Librarians knocking on the door and wanting to ask him some questions -- and Harry offering them a revised schedule of his consulting fees.



Title: Re: Is Harry OP? [Battle Ground Spoilers]
Post by: morriswalters on October 07, 2020, 03:40:06 AM
The Council made their threats. Harry tossed it in their face.  This looks to be a proxy fight until the main attraction kicks off.  Maybe the balkanization of the Council, East against West.  Lonely boy, out on the West Coast.
Title: Re: Is Harry OP? [Battle Ground Spoilers]
Post by: StrayDog on October 08, 2020, 04:10:08 AM
It certainly makes one understand why the White Council is afraid of him. Wait until they hear about the engagement!

That is one I'd LOVE to read about!!  Eb will totally freak out.
Title: Re: Is Harry OP? [Battle Ground Spoilers]
Post by: StrayDog on October 08, 2020, 04:25:23 AM
Harry has tons of Weapons, but little ability to use them.

Seriously, Marcone got 1 power-up and it has him pulling out Magic that would let him trash Harry in spite of all his toys.
Butters took one of Harry's Hand-me-downs (bob) and made better use of it then Harry ever did, turning himself into Magitech Batman before he became a Jedi.
Carlos proves in this book just how much better he is then Harry at Magic with AoE Disintegration Magic.

I've felt this way for quite some time. Harry needs to start working smarter or the only thing keeping him alive will be plot armor. It's very close to jumping that shark now.