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The Dresden Files => DF Spoilers => Topic started by: Griffyn612 on August 04, 2021, 02:00:58 AM
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LAST CALL
“It’s laced with . . . some kind of contagion
focus, I think.”
I nodded. She was talking about magical
contagion, not the medical kind. A contagion focus
was something that formed a link between a
smaller amount of its mass after it had been
separated from the main body. A practitioner
could use it to send magic into the main body, and
by extension into all the smaller foci, even if they
weren’t in the same physical place. It was sort of
like planting a transmitter on someone’s car so
that you could send a missile at it later.
...
“The contagion looks like a simple compulsion
meant to make the victim drink more, but it’s really
a psychic conduit.”
...
“A psychic conduit?” Murphy asked. “What’s
that?”
“It’s like any electrical power line,” I said. “Except
it plugs into your mind—and whoever is on the
other end gets to decide what goes in.”
...
“So do what you do. Put the whammy on them,
and let’s track them down.”
I grimaced and shook my head. “I don’t dare,” I
told her. “All I’ve got to track with is the beer itself.
If I try to use it in a spell, it’ll open me up to the
conduit. It’ll be as if I drank the stuff.”
...
“That’s what the psychic conduit links them to,” I
said. “To Dionysus. To the god of revels and
ecstatic violence.”
BATTLE GROUND
“I am the doubt that wards away sleep. I am the
flaw that corrupts, the infected wound, the false
fork in the trail. I am the gnawer, the worm in the
book, the maggot that burrows in the mind’s eye.”
“I am He Who Walks Beside.”
PROVEN GUILTY
“These mortal notions,” Maeve said. “Good, evil,
love. All those other things your kind natter on
about. Are they perhaps contagious?”
I rose with her, politely. “Some would say so,” I
told her.
She grimaced. “In the time since her death, I
have often thought to myself that Aurora was
stricken with some mortal madness. I believe the
Queen of Air and Darkness has been taken by a
similar contagion.”
COLD DAYS
“Sir Knight, you must have seen it. You must
have seen the contagion spreading. It has been
before your eyes for years.”
“I haven’t seen . . .” Then I paused. My head
started adding things together. “You . . . you aren’t
talking about a physical disease, are you?”
“Of course not,” Lily said. “It is a kind of spiritual
malady. A mental plague. An infection slowly
spreading across the earth.”
“And . . . this plague. What does it do?” I asked.
“It changes that which ought not change,” she
said quietly. “It destroys a father’s love for his
family by twisting it into maniacal ambition. It
distorts and corrupts the good intentions of
agents of mortal law into violence and death. It
erodes the sensible fear that keeps a weakly
talented sorcerer from reaching out for more
power, no matter how terrible the cost.”
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Great pick up with Last Call. I must have missed that!
Thanks for putting this all together. I really think this helps for theory crafting.
If we assume Nemesis works the same way as the contagion in Last Call, we actually can work out what the "transmitter" is on each case. Each person infected would need to have been given a focus of some sort.
The obvious one is Morganna's Athame in Grave Peril. I could also see the jewels given to Ferrovax being one as well, which could mean he is compromised potentially. The Wolf Belts for the FBI. Victor Sells Scorpion perhaps, or perhaps a book of spells. I'd need to reread Storm Front to look for it. Aurora is a tricky one but perhaps a gift of some kind. I can see Kravos being infected perhaps via ritual or being gifted something by Cowl. Maeve was infected by Leah, perhaps through a gift. That works especially well with Faeries. Perhaps a tainted artefact for the Denarians in Blood Rites - the corrupted ones? Almost certainly something necromantic for Cowl, probably in his past. If not the other necromancers. Cat Sith could have had direct contact with He Who Walks Before or Justine (Nemesis). Where Justine picked it up is harder...but I suspect someone in the White Court. Lara or one of the lesser ones.
My oh my this feels like contact tracing. This would be so annoying to actually have to do.
Technically Mac could be infected, at least Jim hints that's possible in one of his latest interviews.
We know there is a limit to how many can be infected...I'd guess 13 makes sense.
Another way that really works for the series is via blood. Lots of those infected consume blood or practice sacrifices or are around blood being spilled.
Interestingly, I wonder if you can exorcise Nemesis? Or cut of the link to the main being?
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Suspected Infected = Suspected Vector = Suspected Source
- Victor Sells = Scorpion = Cowl or Lord Raith (he worked at Silver Co.
- Philip Denton & the Feebs = Wolf Belts = Cowl
- Leonid Kravos = Big Leather Book = Cowl
- Bianca St. Claire = ? = Cowl or Mavra (latter trained her)
- Lea = Athame = Cowl
- Ferrovax = Gem = Cowl
- Aurora = ? = Elaine
- Madge = Ritual Knife? = Lord Raith
- Cowl = ? = Kemmler (decades prior) or Lord Raith (more recently)
- Maeve = Athame = Lea
- Scarecrow = ? = Maeve
- Madrigal = ? = Cowl or Maeve
- Vitto Malvora = ? = Cowl
- Namshiel's Host = ? = ?
- Peabody = ? = Cowl
- Madeline = ? = Cowl or Maeve
- Arianna = ? = Cowl or Bianca (years earlier)
- Cat Sith = ? = Maeve
- Justine = ? = Lord Raith or Madeline or ?
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Theory on Order of Infection
- Young Lord Raith infects himself; becomes anchor for Beside
- Lord Raith infects Kemmler
- Kemmler branch begins and ends
- Lord Raith infects Margaret Lefay
- Margaret Lefay breaks free
- Lord Raith infects Justin DuMorne
- Justin DuMorne infects Elaine Mallory
- Lord Raith infects Cowl
- Cowl infects Peabody
- Cowl infects Victor Sells
- Cowl infects Denton & the Feebs
- Cowl infects Bianca
- Cowl infects Leonid Kravos
- Cowl infects Lea
- Cowl infects Ferrovax
- Elaine infects Aurora
- Lea infects Maeve
- Lord Rath infects Madge
- Maeve infects Scarecrow
- Cowl infects Madrigal Raith
- Cowl infects Vitto Malvora
- Nemesis-controlled Lord Rath infects Justine
- Cowl infects Namshiel's Host
- Cowl infects Madeline Raith
- Cowl infects Arianna Ortega
- Maeve infects Cat Sith
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I'd say that Nemfections are quite a bit simpler overall. For instance, I don't think every big bad in each book is necessarily Nemesis. A number of them, especially the small time ones, can be written of as manipulated by the Black Council/Circle.
I think for our purposes, we can have some assumptions on Nemesis (since by WoJ there is some upper limit for how many places it can be at once).
1. Nemesis infected characters somehow behave differently than they should in a small way
2. For most Significant InfectionsTM, we get an "on-screen" clue for when they are turned, or we will in the future.
3. Nemesis is strategic for how it invests itself in people. It doesn't bother with infecting someone who is too small a player to matter (e.g. Kravos or Victor Sells or the hexenwolves). The Circle handles those instead for whatever reason that meddling occurs.
Lea is the easiest. She was infected in GP by Morganna's athame when she used it in the NN to summon minions to chase Harry.
Maeve is next easiest. She was infected in SK during the battle over Chicago while Mab was distracted. She makes the comment that Harry's godmother sends her regards.
Cat Sith is infected by Maeve in CD when he rescues Harry from the ambush in the gardens.
Other candidates are harder to pinpoint. Aurora was clearly infected by Nemesis, but we don't know how or when yet. Same with Justine.
For the rampires, I don't think Ariana Ortega or her husband were infected, nor Bianca. They act too normally for that. The one that's acting weird was the Red King himself, manifesting in his erratic behavior during the war and his weird-for-rampires bloodlust. The Ortegas were a countering force against Nemesis screwing with their leadership, and Bianca was manipulated by the Circle (who have allied with Nemesis, but are not themselves Nemesis; Cowl and Kumori are our representative members of this group).
I'd also put characters like Peabody into the Circle and/or their pawns group instead of Nemesis.
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Maybe not every big bad...but I'd assume a fair amount of them. Particularly the earlier case files.
Also, SA, we have confirmation I believe of Sells and Kravos being infected. I agree they seem odd choices but I suspect the reasons for them won't be revealed until we find out a bit more about Nemesis.
I suspect Ariana but not Ortega. I wouldn't be surprised if Mavra was infected. Nemesis has few limits about what it can affect other than Archangels and it seems to have a set amount of beings it can reside in at any one time. But maybe part of the game is having lots of hosts prepared. So you only have active the maximum amount but if one is found out another host is activated. Which means there are potentially many more possible candidates than actual hosts, but every possible candidate that has been given a contagion vector could well be a host.
Like Vashta Nerada. Not every shadow, but any shadow.
Of all the candidates, I think the Red King is the least likely. He seemed to just be succumbing from the Thirst too much, which apparently does happen to older vamps eventually.
Theory on Order of Infection
- Young Lord Raith infects himself; becomes anchor for Beside
- Lord Raith infects Kemmler
- Kemmler branch begins and ends
- Lord Raith infects Margaret Lefay
- Margaret Lefay breaks free
- Lord Raith infects Justin DuMorne
- Justin DuMorne infects Elaine Mallory
- Lord Raith infects Cowl
- Cowl infects Peabody
- Cowl infects Victor Sells
- Cowl infects Denton & the Feebs
- Cowl infects Bianca
- Cowl infects Leonid Kravos
- Cowl infects Lea
- Cowl infects Ferrovax
- Elaine infects Aurora
- Lea infects Maeve
- Lord Rath infects Madge
- Maeve infects Scarecrow
- Cowl infects Madrigal Raith
- Cowl infects Vitto Malvora
- Nemesis-controlled Lord Rath infects Justine
- Cowl infects Namshiel's Host
- Cowl infects Madeline Raith
- Cowl infects Arianna Ortega
- Maeve infects Cat Sith
I like the list, and the other one about the possible vectors and sources.
Considering Last Call, does there need to be a host anchor? Or could you just operate spread across the many hosts. Reminds me a bit of Agents in the Matrix or something, potentially able to take over any program. It's not every program, but potentially any of them. Obviously the exceptions are those who are awakened like the crew of the Nebuchadnezzar. Maybe star born are a bit like that.
I keep thinking I should write a comparison thread between the Matrix and the Dresden Files. There are certainly some similarities.
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Without a doubt you have Lea, Maeve, Aurora and Justine and Cat Sith. Given that, why use a shotgun to stalk mice. Anybody not a major player can be dealt with using other tools. Peabody's inks or something like them could have been the source for the lower level players who were corrupted. This was Peabody's modus operandi.
If Papa Raith was the first, was he human at that point? Only Humans can summon Outsiders in, unless my lore fails me. But if he is, why isn't Lara infected? Or is she? In which case the Archive is borked.
Lea first uses the Atheme in Grave Peril to open some kind of Portal. But Aurora is over the river and through the woods by Summer Knight, which at least suggests she was infected first or was more susceptible. Which in turn suggests Elaine. Possibly infected by Justin. Elaine could have been the weapon meant to control Harry, the Destroyer. The Outsiders can't control him directly but they could have used their puppet. That would make her a honeypot like Justine. And when that failed they adapted.
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Maybe not every big bad...but I'd assume a fair amount of them. Particularly the earlier case files.
Also, SA, we have confirmation I believe of Sells and Kravos being infected. I agree they seem odd choices but I suspect the reasons for them won't be revealed until we find out a bit more about Nemesis.
I would think most villains were combinations of either BC influence or Nemesis, but they're not the same thing. It's two groups both thinking that they're using the other one for their own gains. Sells/Kravos/Bianca are all the initial pawns set up by the BC, not really Nemesis hosts. Why waste a limited slot on someone like Sells if you're Nemesis when the BC will control him for you?
SA?
I suspect Ariana but not Ortega. I wouldn't be surprised if Mavra was infected. Nemesis has few limits about what it can affect other than Archangels and it seems to have a set amount of beings it can reside in at any one time. But maybe part of the game is having lots of hosts prepared. So you only have active the maximum amount but if one is found out another host is activated. Which means there are potentially many more possible candidates than actual hosts, but every possible candidate that has been given a contagion vector could well be a host.
Like Vashta Nerada. Not every shadow, but any shadow.
Of all the candidates, I think the Red King is the least likely. He seemed to just be succumbing from the Thirst too much, which apparently does happen to older vamps eventually.
I like the list, and the other one about the possible vectors and sources.
Ariana doesn't make sense to me. She'd be a nice candidate as far as her placement in the Red Court, but she doesn't undermine anything like normal Nemesis hosts. Her moves in Changes were all pro-Red Court when the goal of the bad guys was to weaken both nations by screwing the one that was currently on top in the war. The Red King and Peabody did that for them.
The best connection with Ariana and the BC would be the heart curse that Sells was studying for them. Possibly the BC/Nemesis could have thought that killing starborn Harry and Eb was worth ending their war early.
Considering Last Call, does there need to be a host anchor? Or could you just operate spread across the many hosts. Reminds me a bit of Agents in the Matrix or something, potentially able to take over any program. It's not every program, but potentially any of them. Obviously the exceptions are those who are awakened like the crew of the Nebuchadnezzar. Maybe star born are a bit like that.
I keep thinking I should write a comparison thread between the Matrix and the Dresden Files. There are certainly some similarities.
Yeah, I'm getting the Agent Smith vibe from Nemesis too. My current framework is that Nemesis has a limited list of candidates to jump into and partially to fully control, but it can only do that to a smaller number of beings at once, say 13ish since that number is cropping up a lot more lately.
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I'm trying to figure out in my head using book evidence if the contagion *has* to be Beside. I'd prefer if it didn't.
I'd prefer if the contagion is a conduit that corrupts those it touches, changing them, but it doesn't have anything to do with Beside.
The question is, if the contagion in last call tied the beer drinkers to the essence of Dionysus, then could the nemesis contagion tie to the Lord of Slowest Terror, master of the Walkers?
It could be that the contagion is a psychic link, and the link causes behavior corruption without Beside being involved.
Beside could just be using the link to spy on some, and possess a select few that meet additional criteria.
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Theoretical breakdown between those corrupted by the outsider contagion spell versus those possessed by Beside.
(Incomplete at this time)
- Corruption does not require Beside involved, and simply occurs by interacting with power tainted with the Outsider contagion spell, which corrupts the individual by linking them to Outside/Lord of Slowest Terror.
- Corruption is unlimited.
- Possession requires willing consent, or no consent for those lacking free will and subordinate to another possessed individual.
- Possession has an upper limit.
Corrupted (as specified in CD)
- Victor Sells : Scorpion totem : Cowl
- Philip Denton : Wolf Belts : Cowl
- Leonid Kravos : Big Leather Book : Cowl
- Aurora : ??? : Elaine?
Seemingly corrupted based on behavior
- Madrigal Raith (feeding habits)
- Vitto Malvora (aggression, outsider possession)
- Madge Shelly (aggression, loss of morals)
- Cowl (lack of empathy, use of outsiders)
Possessed by Beside
- Lord Raith : ancient times : Ruby earring from someone/some spell
- Lea : GP/DB : Athame from Cowl
- Maeve : SK/PG : Willing deal with Lea
- Scarecrow : ??? : Commanded by Winter Lady
- Namshiel's Host : ??? : Deal for control?
- Cat Sith : CD : Commanded by Winter Lady
- Justine : BR/TC : ? Maybe Lord Rath on Beside-pilot?
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I'd personally link this to the summoning and mirroring conversation in PG. Based on previous theory combined with BG Nemesis I'd place a large wager that those things connected to either side of the love, faith, and hope trio are primary vectors for contagion. Molly in particular is a candidate for being infected through the use of fear against free will, and in doing so opened herself up to whatever mouse caught a wiff of outside the station. I can also make the case for Nemesis intentionally targeting young, potentially magical women with a propensity to go insane for one reason or another. Molly, Archive, Maeve, Justine. Me thinks Nemesis takes after her namesake and is inherently female.
*And... Is not black magic/contagion simply the primary conduit?
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I'd personally link this to the summoning and mirroring conversation in PG. Based on previous theory combined with BG Nemesis I'd place a large wager that those things connected to either side of the love, faith, and hope trio are primary vectors for contagion. Molly in particular is a candidate for being infected through the use of fear against free will, and in doing so opened herself up to whatever mouse caught a wiff of outside the station. I can also make the case for Nemesis intentionally targeting young, potentially magical women with a propensity to go insane for one reason or another. Molly, Archive, Maeve, Justine. Me thinks Nemesis takes after her namesake and is inherently female.
*And... Is not black magic/contagion simply the primary conduit?
I don't know about some of that, but Beside identified as male in BG as "He Who Walks Beside". We've heard him talk through three hosts, and two were female, but that seems to be more due to the power structure we've seen in the Dresden Files.
We've seen Behind briefly occupy a woman (Madge), and what was likely Before occupy a man (Vitto), and then Before later in what may have been a male body (Sharkface). So it just seemed to be that they use what they have to work with.
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I don't know about some of that, but Beside identified as male in BG as "He Who Walks Beside". We've heard him talk through three hosts, and two were female, but that seems to be more due to the power structure we've seen in the Dresden Files.
We've seen Behind briefly occupy a woman (Madge), and what was likely Before occupy a man (Vitto), and then Before later in what may have been a male body (Sharkface). So it just seemed to be that they use what they have to work with.
And they run a very clever operation, they are very strategic about it and they think long term.. Wonder if they have a tool to see into the future? They planted themselves in Justine, I think with possible cooperation with Lord Raith, who in turn sets her up with Thomas.. Then quietly bides it's time until the Fomor are ready to strike, then sets up the pregnancy, gives Thomas an ultimatum, that leads to the assassination attempt, which threatens to blow up the Accords but more importantly distracts and sidetracks the one being they are afraid of, Harry... Harry manages to come through and Ethniu is jailed, but that is only a temporary set back because Justine is able to still play the grieving victim and almost accomplishes the goal of sabotaging the defenses of Demonreach from inside being invited in, and letting loose on the world all matter of monsters..
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Maybe not every big bad...but I'd assume a fair amount of them. Particularly the earlier case files.
Also, SA, we have confirmation I believe of Sells and Kravos being infected. I agree they seem odd choices but I suspect the reasons for them won't be revealed until we find out a bit more about Nemesis.
Eh ... I wouldn't take Lily's list as authoritative. She was extensively misled.
There was a WOJ that the first nemfected character appeared 'on stage' in Grave Peril, so I think Sells is in the influenced but not infected category. I'm still uncertain whether he was talking about on the literal stage with Bianca at the party scene, or just on page in a general sense.
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Eh ... I wouldn't take Lily's list as authoritative. She was extensively misled.
There was a WOJ that the first nemfected character appeared 'on stage' in Grave Peril, so I think Sells is in the influenced but not infected category. I'm still uncertain whether he was talking about on the literal stage with Bianca at the party scene, or just on page in a general sense.
See, this is where the terminology is limiting.
If there's a contagion that corrupts, and there's Beside possession, then what he said and what Lily said can both be accurate.
Sells end Denton are infected with the corrupting contagion. Someone in GP is possessed/hosting Beside/Nemesis.
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I don't know about some of that, but Beside identified as male in BG as "He Who Walks Beside". We've heard him talk through three hosts, and two were female, but that seems to be more due to the power structure we've seen in the Dresden Files.
eh, that's splitting hairs already split elsewhere. The most primal, well known base name is he who walks beside. But that doesn't mean Nemesis, when so named is male. Same
Creature, but ones a lesser aspect.(thinking of female Loki, or perhaps all three are aspects of Nemesis instead..?) but who is this male we've seen him in? Cat Sith? He doesn't count to me
1 he's a fairy cat, no mortal inside his mantle.(is he male?)
2 that might explain why he was harder to control, like an Ill fitting glove. Nemesis forced it's way in but wasn't a true mirror
3 I figured it was behind? The message, the playful attitude reminding me so much of GS.
If they line up aspects then, without any horsemen connection, then Hwwbh and his loathing is the opposite of love, which makes Nemesis despair I'd think. (Though I'm still partial to the idea nemesis uses all three) *forgot exactly where I was going here..
We've seen Behind briefly occupy a woman (Madge), and what was likely Before occupy a man (Vitto), and then Before later in what may have been a male body (Sharkface). So it just seemed to be that they use what they have to work with.
Madge wasn't a possession really was it? Just sock puppeted the corpse iirc. They do use who is they can get when they can't get who they want. But I think those actions are still ruled by very basic principles of mirroring and contagion. The contagion might be as simple as any sort of rub off of 'outside' energy. Something that can be facilitated by mentally connecting to outsiders, rubbing on the aura of something that has outside energy(thinking this was Elaine with Aurora.. maybe even Harry with Lea) or using dark magic, which is outside energy. They may be a le to mirror as little as 'violated free will with fear' for a vector. But the goal isn't a vector to control, it's a perfect mirror. A true manifestation of full potential.
I'd compare it favorably with Thomas and his mirror, which was probably an intentional clue bat along with a few other Thomas things.( Please note, I had something intelligible thought out, but to my supreme frustration I've been interrupted so many times I can't string it back together, so this is what you get 🤦♂️😤🤷♂️ )Along these lines, if Thomas is half born into an entity not of himself, and Blamps are replaced by a being not themselves. So, they are looking not for someone they can leech on, but someone who can birth them fully into the world. Chewing on the idea angels and outsiders are similar in nature and starborn are the link to creating, if not a new one per say, then a new identity for one.(like lash's"true form" being a Greek woman..) I got more, gonna try to organize my mind on it.
**Would point out GP has kravos, who feeds on fear and has no free will. Always thought this was an early attempt at birthing fear bringer
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eh, that's splitting hairs already split elsewhere. The most primal, well known base name is he who walks beside. But that doesn't mean Nemesis, when so named is male. Same
Creature, but ones a lesser aspect.(thinking of female Loki, or perhaps all three are aspects of Nemesis instead..?) but who is this male we've seen him in? Cat Sith? He doesn't count to me
1 he's a fairy cat, no mortal inside his mantle.(is he male?)
2 that might explain why he was harder to control, like an Ill fitting glove. Nemesis forced it's way in but wasn't a true mirror
3 I figured it was behind? The message, the playful attitude reminding me so much of GS.
If they line up aspects then, without any horsemen connection, then Hwwbh and his loathing is the opposite of love, which makes Nemesis despair I'd think. (Though I'm still partial to the idea nemesis uses all three) *forgot exactly where I was going here..
Madge wasn't a possession really was it? Just sock puppeted the corpse iirc. They do use who is they can get when they can't get who they want. But I think those actions are still ruled by very basic principles of mirroring and contagion. The contagion might be as simple as any sort of rub off of 'outside' energy. Something that can be facilitated by mentally connecting to outsiders, rubbing on the aura of something that has outside energy(thinking this was Elaine with Aurora.. maybe even Harry with Lea) or using dark magic, which is outside energy. They may be a le to mirror as little as 'violated free will with fear' for a vector. But the goal isn't a vector to control, it's a perfect mirror. A true manifestation of full potential.
I'd compare it favorably with Thomas and his mirror, which was probably an intentional clue bat along with a few other Thomas things.( Please note, I had something intelligible thought out, but to my supreme frustration I've been interrupted so many times I can't string it back together, so this is what you get 🤦♂️😤🤷♂️ )Along these lines, if Thomas is half born into an entity not of himself, and Blamps are replaced by a being not themselves. So, they are looking not for someone they can leech on, but someone who can birth them fully into the world. Chewing on the idea angels and outsiders are similar in nature and starborn are the link to creating, if not a new one per say, then a new identity for one.(like lash's"true form" being a Greek woman..) I got more, gonna try to organize my mind on it.
**Would point out GP has kravos, who feeds on fear and has no free will. Always thought this was an early attempt at birthing fear bringer
All I'm suggesting is that the Walkers have each identified themselves as male, and in BR, their master is referred to as Lord.
I honestly don't think gender plays any role for them at all. Maybe if the series were being narrated by Harriet Dresden, they would have identified themselves as She. Maybe they've translated something complex to Harry in the same way Bob had to boil down quantum theory to throwing a rock. He just hears "He" because he is used to gender identity.
I think Titania calls nemesis "it". So I'd go gender neutral or male, based on the language of the books.
But trying to make a case for female identity due to a theoretical association to Rhamnousia (Greek goddess Nemesis' other name, to avoid confusion) doesn't seem like a sound basis for theory crafting.
After all, if Beside/Nemesis had ever been Greek Rhamnousia/Nemesis, using that name to refer to her/it/him would be pointless.
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How would that name be pointless?
The sound basis is easily in the naming. Nemesis draws it's attention because it's a proper name, the Adversary is a role and does not draw it's attention. Given the option between thinking Jim made a one off mistake that makes no metaphysical sense on a character of paramount importance OR the idea it follows given mechanics and we just need to look at why. I'll take the later. That's not theory, that's a... Point of contention that needs addressed before we can so easily dismiss Nemesis as Nemesis the Goddess.
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How would that name be pointless?
The sound basis is easily in the naming. Nemesis draws it's attention because it's a proper name, the Adversary is a role and does not draw it's attention. Given the option between thinking Jim made a one off mistake that makes no metaphysical sense on a character of paramount importance OR the idea it follows given mechanics and we just need to look at why. I'll take the later. That's not theory, that's a... Point of contention that needs addressed before we can so easily dismiss Nemesis as Nemesis the Goddess.
If it were Nemesis the Greek goddess, then Titania could have said "she" rather than "it".
Instead, she refers to it as a power rather than an individual, and an "it". Nemesis sounds more like a spell or computer program than an avatar for righteous retribution.
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If it were Nemesis the Greek goddess, then Titania could have said "she" rather than "it".
Instead, she refers to it as a power rather than an individual, and an "it". Nemesis sounds more like a spell or computer program than an avatar for righteous retribution.
the Sidhe tend to be more correct in their grammer of course, but that doesn't mean we don't have it wrong on our end, we just saw a 'she' or the vessel she used that let her manifest as Nemesis was itself female. If Beside comes into power through Justine I think what the general world will refer to 'it' as, would be vastly different than say if it's born into her male child. We already have an example of this, Drakul. He's clearly in a male body, but this in the know call him a creature and 'it'. 'It' all night be down to a certain prejudice of view. Despite becoming male, they still perceive him as the original unisex being. Mythology still perceives him as male though.
*Speculatively, perhaps Nemesis the Goddess is connected to one of the mantles still floating around and she's specifically trying to mirror it to become it's vessel?
** Old manifestations would still possess similar attributes of course. When Molly's use of fear was tempered to fall into grey areas of magic that didn't break free will, she suddenly resembled the winter lady enough to don the mantle. And the idea of such old manifestations being fed into the table of course, comes up with Mabs scales.
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the Sidhe tend to be more correct in their grammer of course, but that doesn't mean we don't have it wrong on our end, we just saw a 'she' or the vessel she used that let her manifest as Nemesis was itself female. If Beside comes into power through Justine I think what the general world will refer to 'it' as, would be vastly different than say if it's born into her male child. We already have an example of this, Drakul. He's clearly in a male body, but this in the know call him a creature and 'it'. 'It' all night be down to a certain prejudice of view. Despite becoming male, they still perceive him as the original unisex being. Mythology still perceives him as male though.
*Speculatively, perhaps Nemesis the Goddess is connected to one of the mantles still floating around and she's specifically trying to mirror it to become it's vessel?
** Old manifestations would still possess similar attributes of course. When Molly's use of fear was tempered to fall into grey areas of magic that didn't break free will, she suddenly resembled the winter lady enough to don the mantle. And the idea of such old manifestations being fed into the table of course, comes up with Mabs scales.
So tell me I'm understanding your current hypothesis:
- The Greek goddess Nemesis, daughter of Nyx and Erebus, was an Outsider all along. She got along well with native Insider gods and goddesses, had festivals and temples and a generally positive standing with the Greek populace.
- For some reason not said in mythology, Nemesis fell out of favor with humans and gods alike, and decided to become their enemy. She changed her nature from avatar of implacable justice to a shadowy spymaster that seeks to destroy all of reality and bring down everyone.
Is that what you're saying? Or am I misunderstanding?
EDIT: And to clarify, I'm just looking to confirm so I can approach theory crafting for it.
I.E. if you were saying Beside is Nemesis, then one might say Before is Oizys, and Behind is Moros.
Oizys, being one of Nemesis's sisters, who was the personification of misery/anxiety/depression, like we've seen Before's mental whammy cause. And Moros, being one of Nemesis's brothers, who was the personification of a mortal's impending doom, a hateful spirit that allowed mortals to foresee their death, much like how Behind taunted Harry.
All of which are children of Nyx (Night) and Erebus (Darkness), which, when combined, is basically Dark Night (presumably like a sky empty of stars).
There are other siblings, too, so there may be better fits, but those are the ones I found quickly.
EDIT 2:
Looking at the other siblings, I'd say Apate, the personification of deceit, would be a better fit for Beside than Nemesis.
Or Eris, goddess of stryfe and discord.
Or Dolos, Apate's male counterpart of deceit and treachery.
Or Hybris, goddess of insolence, violence, and outrageous behaviour.
The Moroi, the three weavers associated with the Mothers, were also siblings, being daughters of Nyx.
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If it were Nemesis the Greek goddess, then Titania could have said "she" rather than "it".
Instead, she refers to it as a power rather than an individual, and an "it". Nemesis sounds more like a spell or computer program than an avatar for righteous retribution.
Yes, I think Nemesis more unisex than anything.. Not to be confused with Outsiders, but then again. . . He Who Walks Beside, is a "He," it isn't She Who Walks Beside or It Who Walks Beside, it is "He." So Outsiders or Walkers definitely have a male gender I'd say... However what is confusing and I just double checked in Battle Ground when Harry confronts Justine and company.. He demands a name,
page 359
"It will do you no good once I've caved in your skull. Nemesis am I called.
Okay, but on the very next page.. Harry still demands a name.. Justine shutters and says..
She shuddered in bizarre ecstasy and panted, in a frantic whisper,
"I am He Who Walks Beside."
Hell's bells.
A Walker.
More confusing a couple of lines down Harry shutters at how close it was, he had almost let this thing on Demonreach past it's defenses and says...
And an Outsider with the power of a Walker, turned loose inside the island's defenses.
But then on the very next page, the top of the very next page.. Harry accuses Justine et al of sending Thomas to assassinate Etri. And....
"Apocalypse isn't an event," Nemesis murmured. "It is a frame of mind.
I probably would have staggered anyway, but the phrase hit hard.
This was less of a plan than . . .an act of faith, I suppose you would say," the Outsider continued through Justine's lips..
Then another line or two and he is back to calling it a Walker.. Then back to Nemesis further down the page.. On the next page as he falls overboard and Alfred wisks him away he is back to just calling him/her/it an Outsider..
So, back in White Night, Lash tells Harry that Walkers are Outsider warriors, elite knights you might say.. Okay, I get that...
Titania back in Cold Days, tells Harry the Enemy's name finally, Nemesis. The impression I got and I'm not alone from the posts here since Cold Days came out that Nemesis was apart from your average Outsider.. Now it isn't all that clear, it appears they are all one of the same, or maybe clearer to what you are thinking a spell, or computer program, or maybe closer to what Bob is, a spirit of some kind. But classified how? Genus; Nemesis, Class; Outsider, Family; Walker? ???
But most significant I think, from this data we must conclude that at the tender age of 16, Harry kicked Nemesis's ass.. :o
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Yes, I think Nemesis more unisex than anything.. Not to be confused with Outsiders, but then again. . . He Who Walks Beside, is a "He," it isn't She Who Walks Beside or It Who Walks Beside, it is "He." So Outsiders or Walkers definitely have a male gender I'd say... However what is confusing and I just double checked in Battle Ground when Harry confronts Justine and company.. He demands a name,
page 359
Okay, but on the very next page.. Harry still demands a name.. Justine shutters and says..
More confusing a couple of lines down Harry shutters at how close it was, he had almost let this thing on Demonreach past it's defenses and says...
But then on the very next page, the top of the very next page.. Harry accuses Justine et al of sending Thomas to assassinate Etri. And....
Then another line or two and he is back to calling it a Walker.. Then back to Nemesis further down the page.. On the next page as he falls overboard and Alfred wisks him away he is back to just calling him/her/it an Outsider..
So, back in White Night, Lash tells Harry that Walkers are Outsider warriors, elite knights you might say.. Okay, I get that...
Titania back in Cold Days, tells Harry the Enemy's name finally, Nemesis. The impression I got and I'm not alone from the posts here since Cold Days came out that Nemesis was apart from your average Outsider.. Now it isn't all that clear, it appears they are all one of the same, or maybe clearer to what you are thinking a spell, or computer program, or maybe closer to what Bob is, a spirit of some kind. But classified how? Genus; Nemesis, Class; Outsider, Family; Walker? ???
But most significant I think, from this data we must conclude that at the tender age of 16, Harry kicked Nemesis's ass.. :o
Harry is an Insider called Hoss who is the Winter Knight.
Lloyd Slate was an Insider not called Hoss who was the Winter Knight.
Tam Lin was an Insider not called Hoss who was the Winter Knight.
Beside is an Outsider called Nemesis who is a Walker.
Before is an Outsider not called Nemesis who is a Walker.
Behind is an Outsider not called Nemesis who is a Walker.
Simple at that for me.
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I would think most villains were combinations of either BC influence or Nemesis, but they're not the same thing. It's two groups both thinking that they're using the other one for their own gains. Sells/Kravos/Bianca are all the initial pawns set up by the BC, not really Nemesis hosts. Why waste a limited slot on someone like Sells if you're Nemesis when the BC will control him for you?
SA?
Ariana doesn't make sense to me. She'd be a nice candidate as far as her placement in the Red Court, but she doesn't undermine anything like normal Nemesis hosts. Her moves in Changes were all pro-Red Court when the goal of the bad guys was to weaken both nations by screwing the one that was currently on top in the war. The Red King and Peabody did that for them.
The best connection with Ariana and the BC would be the heart curse that Sells was studying for them. Possibly the BC/Nemesis could have thought that killing starborn Harry and Eb was worth ending their war early.
Yeah, I'm getting the Agent Smith vibe from Nemesis too. My current framework is that Nemesis has a limited list of candidates to jump into and partially to fully control, but it can only do that to a smaller number of beings at once, say 13ish since that number is cropping up a lot more lately.
SA (I'm abbreviating your handle), I believe Lily confirms Sells, Denton, Kravos and Aurora. Why waste Nemesis on Justine? She's just a low-level human. I suspect Justin was too for that matter. I think all these apparent nobody humans are not chosen randomly, but for their specific connection to Harry. Why pick on people just in Chicago? Why pick such weak hosts? I do believe Nemesis also is trying to create more chaos in the world, but the hosts are not totally at random. It could be as simple as the initial host was connected to Harry and Chicago, and so all the others are just the hosts that were available. It could also be much more specific and each host was chosen for how it would affect certain things. I believe that is more likely, considering how powerful Outsiders are and Walkers in particular.
I agree though there is a difference between Nemesis infected villains, Black Court agents and those manipulated by them, and other nasty monsters. I think Arianna WAS destabilising the Red Court, she just didn't realise it. Think back to Maeve. So sure she was winning her own game against Mab - neither knowing nor caring for the repercussions. Maeve was almost deluded into believing she would rule instead of Mab but really she would have perished along with the rest. I think Arianna was blinded to her ambitions of going to the Lords of the Outer Night...never realising that the end result of her manipulations was going to be either the destruction of the Red Court or the Wizards. Neither matters to Nemesis...it just wants Empty Night. Remember how the it says everything that happened in Battle Ground was just an act of faith in "Empty Night"?
Well, it's almost certain whoever gave the that curse to Sells (some really advanced dark magic, blood magic) also either taught it to the Red Court, or borrowed it from them to pass on. We've always assumed Black Court...but Nemesis could be the link as well. I don't know that Sells could have powered the curse past one individual.
You know, I first thought of Agent Smith but then the more I thought about it the less it works. Agent Smith wanted to "perfect" everything. He hated all the humans, and then all the programs as well. He almost grew too powerful for his masters to control (at least, that's one interpretation). But Smith ended up taking over every program in the Matrix. He couldn't stop, becoming a self-replicating virus. Smith wasn't just one thing, it was a legion by the end. Which I think was deliberate by the Wachowskis. Anyway, Nemesis doesn't seem to take everything over or be a legion, as such. It more seems like a being that just enjoys destroying things, and just take's over it's host when it feels the need to. That's why I thought of it more of the regular Agents than Smith. Still though, anything is possible.
I'm trying to figure out in my head using book evidence if the contagion *has* to be Beside. I'd prefer if it didn't.
I'd prefer if the contagion is a conduit that corrupts those it touches, changing them, but it doesn't have anything to do with Beside.
The question is, if the contagion in last call tied the beer drinkers to the essence of Dionysus, then could the nemesis contagion tie to the Lord of Slowest Terror, master of the Walkers?
It could be that the contagion is a psychic link, and the link causes behavior corruption without Beside being involved.
Beside could just be using the link to spy on some, and possess a select few that meet additional criteria.
That's an interesting question. I'm not sure it has to be Beside...but I'm not sure that it's anything else either. The Lord of Slowest Terror is an interesting connection. Although one could argue that just as Dionysus was connected to the drinkers of Mac's beer via the contagion, Nemesis is the contagion that connects those infected with the being that it serves (likely an Old One) - the Lord of Slowest Terror. Or Nemesis could be the being at the end of the electricity cable, so to speak, rather than being the cable itself. It's really hard to say.
I'd personally link this to the summoning and mirroring conversation in PG. Based on previous theory combined with BG Nemesis I'd place a large wager that those things connected to either side of the love, faith, and hope trio are primary vectors for contagion. Molly in particular is a candidate for being infected through the use of fear against free will, and in doing so opened herself up to whatever mouse caught a wiff of outside the station. I can also make the case for Nemesis intentionally targeting young, potentially magical women with a propensity to go insane for one reason or another. Molly, Archive, Maeve, Justine. Me thinks Nemesis takes after her namesake and is inherently female.
*And... Is not black magic/contagion simply the primary conduit?
So, what about the male victims? Cat Sith, Kravos, Denton, Sells, likely Cowl, likely Justin, possibly Peabody etc. Lea also isn't young nor is Maeve. Has the Archive been infected? Hard to see Nemesis being gender focused. Can an extradimensional entity from beyond reality have a gender? That's like trying to gender gravity I would have thought.
I don't believe black magic could be the primary conduit though, even if it's part of the process. Justine doesn't practice magic for a start, and beings like Lord Raith etc have inhuman magic. Their dark magic is different from human black magic. The difference between what Cowl uses versus what Mavra uses is distinct. The Faeries use Faerie magic, which doesn't seem to have a black-white magic dichotomy. So how would they be tainted from black magic use?
Eh ... I wouldn't take Lily's list as authoritative. She was extensively misled.
There was a WOJ that the first nemfected character appeared 'on stage' in Grave Peril, so I think Sells is in the influenced but not infected category. I'm still uncertain whether he was talking about on the literal stage with Bianca at the party scene, or just on page in a general sense.
That's fair, Lily didn't know a lot of things. I do remember though back before Justine was revealed as a host for Beside, that people used to claim Lily being misled as a reason for mortals to not be able to be nemfected/possessed...which clearly turned out to not be the case. So I am not so sure we should be so quick to write off what she said. Not to mention, the Doylist reason for listing those characters is to inform the reader. It's not particularly smooth, but unless Jim is deliberately trying to mislead readers about those mentioned in Lily's list it doesn't actually make sense to list them in the first place. I get he was trying to mislead the readers at that moment about Maeve and Lily (Maeve in particular) but in a broader sense what does misleading readers about whether Denton or Sells were infected/possessed achieve?
Also, side note that just occurred to me - Titania would have known Maeve was infected but deliberately chose to let the events of Cold Days play out. Mab has the right to be fairly angry at her not to mention her inaction led to Lily's death. Either Titania is really mad at Mab (seems likely) or she was immensely short-sighted (also possible).
To play devil's advocate as well - Jim has said many things in interviews that aren't true because he sometimes misremembers his own work (particularly the older stuff). Sometimes the questioners even have to remind him. I admit I am unfamiliar with the WOJ in question, but it's possible (depending on when the WOJ was made) that Jim hadn't yet written Cold Days or could well have forgotten what he wrote in Cold Days.
See, this is where the terminology is limiting.
If there's a contagion that corrupts, and there's Beside possession, then what he said and what Lily said can both be accurate.
Sells end Denton are infected with the corrupting contagion. Someone in GP is possessed/hosting Beside/Nemesis.
That's a very good point. We certainly, at least for theory crafting, need better rules around terminology. It would be helpful if Jim did it himself because then the fandom would shift. But I doubt he will because it keeps us guessing more.
Next AMA, someone should really try and clarify this stuff.
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Harry is an Insider called Hoss who is the Winter Knight.
Lloyd Slate was an Insider not called Hoss who was the Winter Knight.
Tam Lin was an Insider not called Hoss who was the Winter Knight.
Beside is an Outsider called Nemesis who is a Walker.
Before is an Outsider not called Nemesis who is a Walker.
Behind is an Outsider not called Nemesis who is a Walker.
Simple at that for me.
??? All I know is Harry still kicked Nemesis Ass.. 8)
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Has Nemesis been on the page? How many names does it have? Titania says
“Nemesis,” she breathed. “Speak it carefully—or it may hear you.”
Butcher, Jim. Cold Days (The Dresden Files, Book 14) (p. 315). Penguin Publishing Group. Kindle Edition.
She doesn't say Before or Beside. I haven't gone back to check but in two cases Jim has forced the Walkers to say their names and what they do.Then she exhaled in a slow, utterly sensual voice, “I am the doubt that wards away sleep. I am the flaw that corrupts, the infected wound, the false fork in the trail. I am the gnawer, the worm in the book, the maggot that burrows in the mind’s eye.” She shuddered in bizarre ecstasy and panted, in a frantic whisper, “I am He Who Walks Beside.”
Butcher, Jim. Battle Ground (Dresden Files) (p. 360). Penguin Publishing Group. Kindle Edition.
Lightning burned far back in its eyes, and it spoke in the voice of gale winds. I AM GATEBREAKER, HARBINGER! I AM FEARGIVER, HOPESLAYER! I AM HE-WHO-WALKS-BEFORE! For a second, I just stood there, staring up at the sky, shocked. Hell’s bells. It worked. The thing spoke, and as it did, I knew, I knew what it was, as if I’d been given a snapshot of its core identity, its quintessential self.
Butcher, Jim. Cold Days (The Dresden Files, Book 14) (pp. 428-429). Penguin Publishing Group. Kindle Edition.
This the only point where Harry specifically calls out the possessed as the Adversary/Then it lifted its head and the motion was subtly wrong, something that simply didn’t have the grace I’d seen in the elder malk before. It faced me for a moment and then it spoke, its voice absent of anything like personality. “A pity. I would have been more useful to them as an active, covert asset.” I shuddered at the utter absence in that voice. I wasn’t talking to Sith anymore. I was speaking with the adversary.
Butcher, Jim. Cold Days (The Dresden Files, Book 14) (p. 439). Penguin Publishing Group. Kindle Edition.
And that phrasing is...odd.
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Has Nemesis been on the page? How many names does it have? Titania says She doesn't say Before or Beside. I haven't gone back to check but in two cases Jim has forced the Walkers to say their names and what they do.This the only point where Harry specifically calls out the possessed as the Adversary/And that phrasing is...odd.
Yes, and didn't Mab say not to even say the name "Nemesis" that often it give it power. Yes, Listens to Wind also said that about the Skin Walker, but I believe Mab said it as well. So are they all Nemesis? If so Harry has known it by at least one of it's names most of his life.
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So tell me I'm understanding your current hypothesis:
- The Greek goddess Nemesis, daughter of Nyx and Erebus, was an Outsider all along. She got along well with native Insider gods and goddesses, had festivals and temples and a generally positive standing with the Greek populace.
- For some reason not said in mythology, Nemesis fell out of favor with humans and gods alike, and decided to become their enemy. She changed her nature from avatar of implacable justice to a shadowy spymaster that seeks to destroy all of reality and bring down everyone.
ok let's see if I can organize this right...
1The Greek Goddess Nemesis was either thrown out because she was always Beside and her nature inside reality didn't fit the new order after TWC.
2 OR the Greek goddess Nemesis existed and at some point was directly corrupted by Beside so much so that the mask of Nemesis is now just an aspect of Beside through which she can act.
3 tangential idea, They subsequently destroyed/changed the nature of 'Nemesis' into something else, i.e. into the stone table. BUT, if Nemesis was an original being like say, Ethniu. Something that exists in an of itself or at a higher level form, something with Soul, the take the idea according to recent Woj on wamp feeding (always have the wamps have clues) talking about consuming souls and how all soul seeks it's original state making the small bits they actually take meaningless and mash that fact together with the idea Nemesis used to have a soul, and it's very much targeting the courts because they have pieces that match, things in it she can mirror because they were made from her aspects.
Is that what you're saying? Or am I misunderstanding?
EDIT: And to clarify, I'm just looking to confirm so I can approach theory crafting for it.
I.E. if you were saying Beside is Nemesis, then one might say Before is Oizys, and Behind is Moros.
Oizys, being one of Nemesis's sisters, who was the personification of misery/anxiety/depression, like we've seen Before's mental whammy cause. And Moros, being one of Nemesis's brothers, who was the personification of a mortal's impending doom, a hateful spirit that allowed mortals to foresee their death, much like how Behind taunted Harry.
All of which are children of Nyx (Night) and Erebus (Darkness), which, when combined, is basically Dark Night (presumably like a sky empty of stars).
There are other siblings, too, so there may be better fits, but those are the ones I found quickly.
EDIT 2:
Looking at the other siblings, I'd say Apate, the personification of deceit, would be a better fit for Beside than Nemesis.
Or Eris, goddess of stryfe and discord.
Or Dolos, Apate's male counterpart of deceit and treachery.
Or Hybris, goddess of insolence, violence, and outrageous behaviour.
The Moroi, the three weavers associated with the Mothers, were also siblings, being daughters of Nyx.
that.. that could be quite accurate. Even if it's not one for one, the general idea seems present in the DF. Though Jim mashes mythos together sometimes so it's hard to pinpoint one being when that person in the DF might literally be multiple beings of similar nature in multiple mythos.
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SA (I'm abbreviating your handle), I believe Lily confirms Sells, Denton, Kravos and Aurora. Why waste Nemesis on Justine? She's just a low-level human. I suspect Justin was too for that matter. I think all these apparent nobody humans are not chosen randomly, but for their specific connection to Harry. Why pick on people just in Chicago? Why pick such weak hosts? I do believe Nemesis also is trying to create more chaos in the world, but the hosts are not totally at random. It could be as simple as the initial host was connected to Harry and Chicago, and so all the others are just the hosts that were available. It could also be much more specific and each host was chosen for how it would affect certain things. I believe that is more likely, considering how powerful Outsiders are and Walkers in particular.
Ah, I should have guessed.
I believe that Aurora was certainly Nemesis controlled (since her fae nature prevents most other options), but not Sells/Denton/Kravos. Lily isn't convincing for me; we already know she's been lied to. I put those three at the Black Council's feet (also, for clarity, let's be specific about Black Council/Circle vs Black Court). They are setting the stage for the Circle/Nemesis's first big move together (at least in a while) in GP targeting Lea and starting the wizard-vampire war. They were doing things Nemesis liked, but I don't think Nemesis had the ability to jump into any of those three like he could for Cat Sith, for example.
Justine is substantially different than any of the three early mortal villains. She's not just a random mook. She's a hook into both the White Court royalty (in two ways) and into the starborn that's been ruining so many things for Nemesis's BC buddies lately.
I'd also push back against Justin being Nemesis. He's BC through and through. (Fun fact, Justin was Simon Pietrovich's apprentice).
I agree though there is a difference between Nemesis infected villains, Black Court agents and those manipulated by them, and other nasty monsters. I think Arianna WAS destabilising the Red Court, she just didn't realise it. Think back to Maeve. So sure she was winning her own game against Mab - neither knowing nor caring for the repercussions. Maeve was almost deluded into believing she would rule instead of Mab but really she would have perished along with the rest. I think Arianna was blinded to her ambitions of going to the Lords of the Outer Night...never realising that the end result of her manipulations was going to be either the destruction of the Red Court or the Wizards. Neither matters to Nemesis...it just wants Empty Night. Remember how the it says everything that happened in Battle Ground was just an act of faith in "Empty Night"?
I'd say that Ariana was more blinded by getting revenge on Harry's family than her ambition, but that's not the point. By removing the liability that is the Red King, she's strengthening the Red Court overall. That's not destabilizing. It's like Harry slamming his arm back into socket, painful at first, but quickly better. Destroying the White Council would be stabilizing for the Red Court as well. No more wizards killing them in a long war. Ariana's actions are against the chaos that Nemesis prefers in order to bring about Empty Night. Prolonging the war is what's good for Nemesis, not the RC winning.
Well, it's almost certain whoever gave the that curse to Sells (some really advanced dark magic, blood magic) also either taught it to the Red Court, or borrowed it from them to pass on. We've always assumed Black Court...but Nemesis could be the link as well. I don't know that Sells could have powered the curse past one individual.
Agreed. I would imagine that the heart curse is an original Red Court/Mayan pantheon special that the BC came across (which makes a nice contribution for a Cowl=Simon Pietrovich vampire expert in the BC). It hadn't been used in forever (Odin says over a millennium for Power on the Changes scale), so send it off to Chicago with a nobody to test before any enemies know you're plotting, hence Sells. That way, they can figure out its requirements and limitations while simultaneously setting the stage for their big move in GP. Later, it's an insurance policy for the WC getting the upper hand against the RC in order to prolong the war.
You know, I first thought of Agent Smith but then the more I thought about it the less it works. Agent Smith wanted to "perfect" everything. He hated all the humans, and then all the programs as well. He almost grew too powerful for his masters to control (at least, that's one interpretation). But Smith ended up taking over every program in the Matrix. He couldn't stop, becoming a self-replicating virus. Smith wasn't just one thing, it was a legion by the end. Which I think was deliberate by the Wachowskis. Anyway, Nemesis doesn't seem to take everything over or be a legion, as such. It more seems like a being that just enjoys destroying things, and just take's over it's host when it feels the need to. That's why I thought of it more of the regular Agents than Smith. Still though, anything is possible.
Yeah, I was mostly pointing out the process where Agent Smith took over susceptible targets. We agree that Nemesis and Agent Smith are distinct philosophically.
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Yes, and didn't Mab say not to even say the name "Nemesis" that often it give it power. Yes, Listens to Wind also said that about the Skin Walker, but I believe Mab said it as well. So are they all Nemesis? If so Harry has known it by at least one of it's names most of his life.
I have no idea. Jim is all over the map. But if he gets the proper names out of them then my inclination would be for them to be who they say they are. Somebody else upstream is Nemesis. Ruler to their Knights.
If Justine was taken on the page then it could have happened at Bianca's. It would help explain why she didn't die when Thomas fed on her in Blood Rites. If it happened off the page it probably occurred after the feeding and Nemesis stepped in to keep her alive. I vote for the second option. However by White Knight you have to consider that the left hand and the right hand don't speak. This because you have someone trying to decapitate the Whites while someone else is insinuated into the inner fold.
So here's my take. The Walkers are ground troops and Beside is the carrier. He opens the door. This is implied by his true name. In Maeve and Aurora's case Beside took what was there and made it more. He never needed to control. It worked too well for Lea and she got nabbed by Mab. It worked on Cat Sith until Harry showed him the man behind the curtain. Then Nemesis entered through the door Beside created and wiped him clean.
Justine was a special case. Her personality was mostly gone and she was like an empty furnished house, Nemesis moved in and started wearing her clothes.
The only person who could have gotten to Aurora that we've met is Elaine Mallory. She may have been Cowls tool for attacking Summer. If Justine was killed by Harry or a Walker then Elaine may have been spirited away by Cowl, which would make her Kumori.
This if you accept my thesis that the books through Cold Days are about an attack on the Courts. Primarily Winter.
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A sound thesis and certainly one of the major goals. And that's certainly a possibility. Including Nemesis itself as a walker is something we all, including myself have done automatically. But nothing has said Nemesis is the same as Beside. I've actually considered this previously when trying to count the 4 horsemen up with the walker's, but I thought that'd make five. But if Nemesis is a different thing from the three walkers altogether it'd make alot more sense.
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My initial interpretation was that the three Walkers (Before, Behind, Beside=Nemesis) play a similar role as the Winter Knight does for Winter. "Regular" outsiders like the cornerhounds are like your run of the mill faeries. The Walkers play by a different set of rules.
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He Who Walks Behind - Will ambush you
He Who Walks Before - Will confront you
He Who Walks Beside - Will corrupt you
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A sound thesis and certainly one of the major goals. And that's certainly a possibility. Including Nemesis itself as a walker is something we all, including myself have done automatically. But nothing has said Nemesis is the same as Beside. I've actually considered this previously when trying to count the 4 horsemen up with the walker's, but I thought that'd make five. But if Nemesis is a different thing from the three walkers altogether it'd make alot more sense.
Well actually I was wrong. It's in the text and I have no idea how I missed it. Beside is Nemesis by his own admission, unless he lied.
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Well actually I was wrong. It's in the text and I have no idea how I missed it. Beside is Nemesis by his own admission, unless he lied.
Yeah, Mira quoted it on the previous page of the thread.
I guess it could be argued that they all claim the name, or Beside was playing Sidhe-like games and playing into misconceptions about his nature.
After all, "Hoss I am called" is not the same as "My name is Hoss".
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Very true, and when he pressed for a name it didn't just say "Nemesis" as it's true name. Perhaps it's a mask that it or they also fit into, but not the individual mask.. ohh 😯 yea, just like Hecate might have? If they are the Adversary specifically of the courts then they may be arranged in the same in mirror of them. Course, I expect that mirror to be twisted a bit.
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Yeah, Mira quoted it on the previous page of the thread.
I guess it could be argued that they all claim the name, or Beside was playing Sidhe-like games and playing into misconceptions about his nature.
After all, "Hoss I am called" is not the same as "My name is Hoss".
Or in general I am called Nemesis, like if I were to ask you and you answered, "I am Human." Yes, that is true, but what is your name? You can answer, " I am Griffyn612." Which is also true, but it is a screen name.. So I could ask it again and this time you answered your actual name. Names do have power as Harry drilled into our heads early on when he summoned Chauncy. Chauncy wanted to bargain information for Harry's full name and as much as he wanted information, Harry wouldn't go all the way with it. He even has stated at times that how a true name is pronounced even makes a difference. So obviously Nemesis wasn't going to be tricked into giving Harry any power over him.
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They aren't tricked into it, just overpowered. Giving harry a name they are vulnerable against is exactly what they do when he calls them out.
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Ah, I should have guessed.
I believe that Aurora was certainly Nemesis controlled (since her fae nature prevents most other options), but not Sells/Denton/Kravos. Lily isn't convincing for me; we already know she's been lied to. I put those three at the Black Council's feet (also, for clarity, let's be specific about Black Council/Circle vs Black Court). They are setting the stage for the Circle/Nemesis's first big move together (at least in a while) in GP targeting Lea and starting the wizard-vampire war. They were doing things Nemesis liked, but I don't think Nemesis had the ability to jump into any of those three like he could for Cat Sith, for example.
Justine is substantially different than any of the three early mortal villains. She's not just a random mook. She's a hook into both the White Court royalty (in two ways) and into the starborn that's been ruining so many things for Nemesis's BC buddies lately.
I'd also push back against Justin being Nemesis. He's BC through and through. (Fun fact, Justin was Simon Pietrovich's apprentice).
I'd say that Ariana was more blinded by getting revenge on Harry's family than her ambition, but that's not the point. By removing the liability that is the Red King, she's strengthening the Red Court overall. That's not destabilizing. It's like Harry slamming his arm back into socket, painful at first, but quickly better. Destroying the White Council would be stabilizing for the Red Court as well. No more wizards killing them in a long war. Ariana's actions are against the chaos that Nemesis prefers in order to bring about Empty Night. Prolonging the war is what's good for Nemesis, not the RC winning.
Agreed. I would imagine that the heart curse is an original Red Court/Mayan pantheon special that the BC came across (which makes a nice contribution for a Cowl=Simon Pietrovich vampire expert in the BC). It hadn't been used in forever (Odin says over a millennium for Power on the Changes scale), so send it off to Chicago with a nobody to test before any enemies know you're plotting, hence Sells. That way, they can figure out its requirements and limitations while simultaneously setting the stage for their big move in GP. Later, it's an insurance policy for the WC getting the upper hand against the RC in order to prolong the war.
Yeah, I was mostly pointing out the process where Agent Smith took over susceptible targets. We agree that Nemesis and Agent Smith are distinct philosophically.
I guess we will find out more later about the first few mortals. Another good question for a Jim AMA or something. I don't agree though that Nemesis didn't have the ability to possess Sells, Denton or Kravos. If it can possess Justine, why not other mortals? I get she is a more important target, but fundamentally she is as human as the rest. So the barrier to entry shouldn't be different.
Well, see being Black Council and being Nemesis-infected and/or possessed are not necessarily mutually exclusive. Justin could have been Black Council who got infected, or maybe that's part of being on the Black Council, or perhaps he got infected before forming/joining the Black Council.
Certainly, Arianna believed the Red King was a liability. And yes, his junkie behaviour is concerning (interesting that the other Black Council catpaw, the Fomor, are have someone with junkie-like behaviour - Corb). However, had Arianna completed her coup perhaps she would have kicked off a civil war and the entire Red Court made vulnerable. It's not at all certain that the other Lords would have accepted one of their own taking over their sire. Not to mention, I suspect some of them would have preferred to rule than whoever Arianna was allied with. The Red Court wouldn't have necessarily won even if the removing the Red King had united them. But even if it had, destroying the White Council or strengthening the Red Court would only have furthered Nemesis' aims. With no White Council, who would stop the agents of destruction? Who would protect humanity and stop the warlocks arising and the Outer Gates being opened? The Red Court united would have been worse for humanity and the world would have been darker for it, particularly without the White Council to stop them. Nemesis wants more darkness and chaos. That's what I was getting at. In that environment, the return of the Outsiders is far more likely.
I think the heart-ripping curse was not in Chicago by accident. I can't prove it but it almost certainly was linked to Harry being there. It doesn't make sense to test it there otherwise.
Yeah, Nemesis is almost a combination of both regular Agents and Agent Smith, at least in it's operation. I wouldn't be surprised if it partly inspired Jim.
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I guess we will find out more later about the first few mortals. Another good question for a Jim AMA or something. I don't agree though that Nemesis didn't have the ability to possess Sells, Denton or Kravos. If it can possess Justine, why not other mortals? I get she is a more important target, but fundamentally she is as human as the rest. So the barrier to entry shouldn't be different.
Could they be Nemesis possessed, sure. Were they? I really doubt it. They're not well placed enough to be worth Nemesis's resources. I don't think it would have expended the energy to add them to its collection of possessable options.
Well, see being Black Council and being Nemesis-infected and/or possessed are not necessarily mutually exclusive. Justin could have been Black Council who got infected, or maybe that's part of being on the Black Council, or perhaps he got infected before forming/joining the Black Council.
Not necessarily exclusive, but more likely than not. The BC and Nemesis both think they're using each other to get ahead. I'm convinced that Maggie Sr is the founder of the Black Council and tried to get out.
Certainly, Arianna believed the Red King was a liability. And yes, his junkie behaviour is concerning (interesting that the other Black Council catpaw, the Fomor, are have someone with junkie-like behaviour - Corb). However, had Arianna completed her coup perhaps she would have kicked off a civil war and the entire Red Court made vulnerable. It's not at all certain that the other Lords would have accepted one of their own taking over their sire. Not to mention, I suspect some of them would have preferred to rule than whoever Arianna was allied with. The Red Court wouldn't have necessarily won even if the removing the Red King had united them. But even if it had, destroying the White Council or strengthening the Red Court would only have furthered Nemesis' aims. With no White Council, who would stop the agents of destruction? Who would protect humanity and stop the warlocks arising and the Outer Gates being opened? The Red Court united would have been worse for humanity and the world would have been darker for it, particularly without the White Council to stop them. Nemesis wants more darkness and chaos. That's what I was getting at. In that environment, the return of the Outsiders is far more likely.
I disagree. A prolonged war means two Accorded nations effectively take each other out, meaning less defenders for reality and a void to fill that's twice as wide. More chaos for Nemesis to take advantage of at the end of the day. A Red Court victory would have humanity worse off, but the Red Court still wants to keep up the masquerade for humanity and to avoid Empty Night.
I think the heart-ripping curse was not in Chicago by accident. I can't prove it but it almost certainly was linked to Harry being there. It doesn't make sense to test it there otherwise.
Yeah, Nemesis is almost a combination of both regular Agents and Agent Smith, at least in it's operation. I wouldn't be surprised if it partly inspired Jim.
Cowl/Mavra picked Bianca as their vector to start trouble, hence Chicago. She was conveniently near a White Council wizard they had some interest in already (he killed his first handler, Justin; plus he's a starborn--a good resource for people trying to swindle outsiders). Harry could be tested, recruited, or used as leverage to start the wizard-vampire war. All good reasons to start preparations in Chicago.
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Was looking for a reference in White Knight and ran across a conversation between Harry and Thomas stating that Justine had moved in close to Lara the year before. That would be during Proven Guilty.
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Was looking for a reference in White Knight and ran across a conversation between Harry and Thomas stating that Justine had moved in close to Lara the year before. That would be during Proven Guilty.
It began though after the near fatal feeding in Blood Rites. Here is a thought, yes, supposedly Thomas was able to stop himself before he actually killed her, because he'd rather die and kill the woman he loved. Interesting isn't it at that point in time, the love wasn't true because if it were wouldn't he have been burned? Also, what if Justine survived the feeding, not because Thomas stopped but because she was already possessed by Nemesis?
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I have no idea. Maybe?
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They aren't tricked into it, just overpowered. Giving harry a name they are vulnerable against is exactly what they do when he calls them out.
Maeve, and Titania Aurora didn't appear overpowered. They thought they were doing what was right. Catsith appeared overpowered, as did Justine. I don't know why some appear to be totally controlled while others are more manipulated rather than brute forced.
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Maeve, and Titania didn't appear overpowered. They thought they were doing what was right. Catsith appeared overpowered, as did Justine. I don't know why some appear to be totally controlled while others are more manipulated rather than brute forced.
Titania?
I think Nemesis probably has different settings for its hosts. Active vs passive possession, and possibly others. Basically varying degrees to which Nemesis has to focus its attention to maintain control. It used Maeve's jealousy to get her on its side, so it didn't need to exert much if any power there. Comparatively, Lea and Cat Sith fought against it, and Nemesis had to take a more active role.
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Titania?
I think Nemesis probably has different settings for its hosts. Active vs passive possession, and possibly others. Basically varying degrees to which Nemesis has to focus its attention to maintain control. It used Maeve's jealousy to get her on its side, so it didn't need to exert much if any power there. Comparatively, Lea and Cat Sith fought against it, and Nemesis had to take a more active role.
Doh I meant Aurora.
Great points. Nemesis doesn't appear to be all powerful when attached to a host. In a way it reminds me of Harry and Lash.. She was always in his head, tempting him, but he still had a Choice. I wonder if a person can force It away or if it's like the Winter Knight Mantle... Mab, if needed could force Harry to act, but once that's done, she'd have to always control him directly, requiring more of her attention.
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Doh I meant Aurora
Ah I should have guessed. With Aurora, you almost wonder if she even realized she was infected. Then again, that's the kind of act Nemesis might put up for people not in the know like Harry was at the time.
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Ah I should have guessed. With Aurora, you almost wonder if she even realized she was infected. Then again, that's the kind of act Nemesis might put up for people not in the know like Harry was at the time.
I think the Harry/Lash thing is similar. Nemesis is telling them what they want to hear, manipulating them, and so they work with it. But if they refused, it would force itself into control which would make things more difficult.
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I think the Harry/Lash thing is similar. Nemesis is telling them what they want to hear, manipulating them, and so they work with it. But if they refused, it would force itself into control which would make things more difficult.
Yeah, that's a good analogy to go on for what we know.
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Maeve, and Titania Aurora didn't appear overpowered. They thought they were doing what was right. Catsith appeared overpowered, as did Justine. I don't know why some appear to be totally controlled while others are more manipulated rather than brute forced.
Maeve had "mommy issues" to begin with, so vulnerable to being seduced rather than overpowered.. Power and revenge can be irresistible to someone as unhappy in her job as Maeve was. Aurora didn't have "mommy issues" as far as we know, but she might not have been the brightest star in the sky either, like Lily she may have been easy to convince what she was doing was best.
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Could they be Nemesis possessed, sure. Were they? I really doubt it. They're not well placed enough to be worth Nemesis's resources. I don't think it would have expended the energy to add them to its collection of possessable options.
Not necessarily exclusive, but more likely than not. The BC and Nemesis both think they're using each other to get ahead. I'm convinced that Maggie Sr is the founder of the Black Council and tried to get out.
I disagree. A prolonged war means two Accorded nations effectively take each other out, meaning less defenders for reality and a void to fill that's twice as wide. More chaos for Nemesis to take advantage of at the end of the day. A Red Court victory would have humanity worse off, but the Red Court still wants to keep up the masquerade for humanity and to avoid Empty Night.
Cowl/Mavra picked Bianca as their vector to start trouble, hence Chicago. She was conveniently near a White Council wizard they had some interest in already (he killed his first handler, Justin; plus he's a starborn--a good resource for people trying to swindle outsiders). Harry could be tested, recruited, or used as leverage to start the wizard-vampire war. All good reasons to start preparations in Chicago.
Unless those mortals were well placed - in reference to Harry. Each of them are part of significant events in his life. It could well be that Nemesis is far more focussed on Harry than we realise.
It's certainly possible Maggie was the founder. I personally think it's actually older and Kemmler founded it. But there's no way to know really until we have more information about the Black Council. Btw, do we know for sure that the Black Council think they're using Nemesis? I don't remember any conversation with a confirmed member of this still-unconfirmed organisation. We only have Harry's speculation on the whole thing. We don't have anyone saying "Hey, join our super friends team called "the Black Council" - we have great dental!". I think we have to be careful about assuming anything about the Black Council.
Did the Red Court want to avoid Empty Night? Were the ideals of the whole of the Court the same as the ideas of their most dominant faction? Did the leadership of the Court really say what they wanted?
I don't think we have any real answers to those questions. But we do know that Arianna represented a powerful faction at odds with the Red King. We know that there was at least one Lord of the Outer Night involved who wished to rule the whole Red Court.
Considering the Red Court leaders called themselves the Lords of the "Outer Night" which has been used interchangeably in the series with Outside...there is a clear connection between the two. Who says they weren't merely the agents of the Outside on Earth? The goals of the Red Court were largely unknown beyond feeding, domination and slaughter. Let alone the goals of the Red King, or whatever internal faction Arianna was a part of etc.
We just don't know if the Red Court really wanted the Masquerade to continue. In point of fact, part of the reason to remove the Wizards was to begin a free-for-all hunting season on humanity.
I'll probably never get the Chicago reasons unless Jim bothers to go deeper than "this is where my writing teacher told me to set it". He could have a reason like "this is the prophesized location of the final battle etc." or something to that effect. But he either is keeping that from us deliberately or he never really thought about it and might choose to come up with it later, or might not. I would prefer it as it grates on my mind. Honestly, you could solve the problem with a single piece of information.
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Unless those mortals were well placed - in reference to Harry. Each of them are part of significant events in his life. It could well be that Nemesis is far more focussed on Harry than we realise.
It's possible, but I don't think it's the most likely solution. Not without more compelling evidence.
It's certainly possible Maggie was the founder. I personally think it's actually older and Kemmler founded it. But there's no way to know really until we have more information about the Black Council. Btw, do we know for sure that the Black Council think they're using Nemesis? I don't remember any conversation with a confirmed member of this still-unconfirmed organisation. We only have Harry's speculation on the whole thing. We don't have anyone saying "Hey, join our super friends team called "the Black Council" - we have great dental!". I think we have to be careful about assuming anything about the Black Council.
It's speculation, but it fits what we know so far about Maggie Sr's associates. Kemmler is possible, but he strikes me as more of a lone megalomaniac than the guy to build a legion of doom.
I like Maggie Sr for the Circle founder because we know that she was hopping all around the world befriending some tough customers. We also know from Luccio she was interested in changing the Laws of Magic to be more just. That led to the famous dinner fight with Eb and some major vampire players where she tried to recruit him. When that didn't work, she went to his best friend Simon Pietrovich, i.e. Cowl. His apprentice Justin DuMorne follows along. Eventually, Maggie Sr changes her mind about things and tries to pull out, and she's only mildly successful. The rest is difficult to make guesses at without a better understanding of motives.
As far as using Nemesis, it's been around forever from what we can surmise. For a Maggie Sr Circle, desperate for the power to try to make the world a better place, Nemesis probably seemed like a dangerous but enticing ally. They don't want it to succeed in destroying reality, but they need its power to make the changes they think should be made to the current order. Nemesis is using the BC to get ahead itself with the chaos of a secret powerful faction.
Did the Red Court want to avoid Empty Night? Were the ideals of the whole of the Court the same as the ideas of their most dominant faction? Did the leadership of the Court really say what they wanted?
I don't think we have any real answers to those questions. But we do know that Arianna represented a powerful faction at odds with the Red King. We know that there was at least one Lord of the Outer Night involved who wished to rule the whole Red Court.
Considering the Red Court leaders called themselves the Lords of the "Outer Night" which has been used interchangeably in the series with Outside...there is a clear connection between the two. Who says they weren't merely the agents of the Outside on Earth? The goals of the Red Court were largely unknown beyond feeding, domination and slaughter. Let alone the goals of the Red King, or whatever internal faction Arianna was a part of etc.
We just don't know if the Red Court really wanted the Masquerade to continue. In point of fact, part of the reason to remove the Wizards was to begin a free-for-all hunting season on humanity.
I don't think "Outer Night" is anywhere interchangeable with beyond the Outer Gates.
It's hard to figure out different motivations for the Red Court factions because most of the perspectives that we get are villain monologues. I don't think they wanted to end the masquerade, just less interference on how they managed their food source. Riled mortals are still stronger with their ferromancy.
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I could easily see where Outer Night could be tied to the Outside, but there's been nothing definitively shown in the series to establish it.
There's "Out", and "Night", and twelve Lords plus the King totalling thirteen. But thirteen is also a mortal number, so it's not exclusive to outside things like the cornerhounds.
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It's possible, but I don't think it's the most likely solution. Not without more compelling evidence.
To each their own. The list of questions for Jim grows and sadly I don't think he will answer any of them soon.
It's speculation, but it fits what we know so far about Maggie Sr's associates. Kemmler is possible, but he strikes me as more of a lone megalomaniac than the guy to build a legion of doom.
Kemmler was associated with the Thule Society though in Fistful of Warlocks, I believe. He also did have a cadre of apprentices and allies - demons, vampires, some of the nastier Fae. He was hardly alone. We've even met at least three of them (Cowl, Grevane, and the Corpsetaker) if not more potentially (two unnamed apprentices in A Fistful of Warlocks) and possibly even others yet to be revealed. I can't say for certain he started the Black Council. But he did much of what they were doing while he was alive. He was destabilising the world order, he was upsetting the balances of power, and he particularly went after the White Council - just like the Black Council. He also used the same symbol as the Denarians (the anarchy pentagram) in a Fistful of Warlocks - and considering it seems like Thorned Namshiel built that particular circle in Small Favor, and he was/is one of the likeliest Black Council candidates on the Denarians prior to Marcone bonding with him, it seems like a link.
I like Maggie Sr for the Circle founder because we know that she was hopping all around the world befriending some tough customers. We also know from Luccio she was interested in changing the Laws of Magic to be more just. That led to the famous dinner fight with Eb and some major vampire players where she tried to recruit him. When that didn't work, she went to his best friend Simon Pietrovich, i.e. Cowl. His apprentice Justin DuMorne follows along. Eventually, Maggie Sr changes her mind about things and tries to pull out, and she's only mildly successful. The rest is difficult to make guesses at without a better understanding of motives.
Again, she was hardly the first person to do that. Kemmler did it, DuMorne did it. Likely other dark wizards. The single biggest indication is that she was fighting to make the Laws fairer and that she was plotting to do just that with dubious persons.
Also, we don't know Simon is Cowl. We don't know if Maggie and Simon ever met. It's possible but not confirmed, and Cowl's identity is also not confirmed. We do know that Simon and Maggie were associated, possibly even friends/lovers. But it's harder to make any guesses without more of Maggie's history.
As far as using Nemesis, it's been around forever from what we can surmise. For a Maggie Sr Circle, desperate for the power to try to make the world a better place, Nemesis probably seemed like a dangerous but enticing ally. They don't want it to succeed in destroying reality, but they need its power to make the changes they think should be made to the current order. Nemesis is using the BC to get ahead itself with the chaos of a secret powerful faction.
It's interesting, because on the one hand we can assume with reasonable certainty that the Outsiders precede Creation. Therefore Nemesis is as old as anything. On the other hand, several characters have referred to Nemesis as "a new force". I think it's likely that Nemesis has been bound or dormant prior to the events of the series but someone unleashed it. Maybe Maggie, maybe Kemmler, maybe Justin, who knows?
Maggie would have had to be absolutely nuts to think that a mind-controlling monster from beyond reality that only seeks to unravel creation would have been a good ally let alone controllable. There are probably far less dangerous ways to shape the Council without risking the destruction of all. If anything, I think once Maggie realised how bad things were she backed out.
It's hard to figure out different motivations for the Red Court factions because most of the perspectives that we get are villain monologues. I don't think they wanted to end the masquerade, just less interference on how they managed their food source. Riled mortals are still stronger with their ferromancy.
In White Knight, Harry says to Murphy that should the White Council lose the war the Red Court would take control of the less kind parts of the world i.e. not first world countries - he specifically names Stalin's old stomping grounds. I think most if not all of South America, Africa, the poorer parts of Europe and the Middle East. They might not have openly declared they were vampires but I doubt they would have been as subtle as previously. Their numbers would have swelled, their power grown and they would have become might again. The White Court would tighten it's grip on the first world countries that imagined themselves more civilised than the rest of the world. Perhaps the Jade Court might even have increased it's control in Asia.
Mortals are strong with ferromancy...when united. Against a powerful foe that they don't believe in (that comes from their legends), who they don't understand or know much about...I think by the time they reacted it would be too late. Humanity is easily divided sadly. History teaches us this. We never unite for long, and never with much strength. Maybe with a common foe...but then again there probably would be those who imagine they could somehow exploit the situation for their own advantage and would undermine the efforts of the others. Plenty would continue to deny what was happening even if the vampires came out of the shadows, let alone declared themselves rulers. This is why the White Council is important. It's part of why it was established. Because before the White Council was around mortals were at the mercy of the supernatural world.
I don't think "Outer Night" is anywhere interchangeable with beyond the Outer Gates.
“Cornerhounds, servants of the Outer Night, this world is not meant for you!” I shouted at them. “I banish thee!”
That's from Peace Talks when Harry banishes the Cornerhounds (the Hounds of Tindalos). Chapter 12, page 34.
Seems pretty definitive to me.
I could easily see where Outer Night could be tied to the Outside, but there's been nothing definitively shown in the series to establish it.
There's "Out", and "Night", and twelve Lords plus the King totalling thirteen. But thirteen is also a mortal number, so it's not exclusive to outside things like the cornerhounds.
See above.
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I could easily see where Outer Night could be tied to the Outside, but there's been nothing definitively shown in the series to establish it.
There's "Out", and "Night", and twelve Lords plus the King totalling thirteen. But thirteen is also a mortal number, so it's not exclusive to outside things like the cornerhounds.
it's been awhile, so maybe not, but I thought someone linked that particular turn of phrase with something elses mythos? Like the hounds of tildalos? 🤔 I'll have to look into the origins of that again.
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To each their own. The list of questions for Jim grows and sadly I don't think he will answer any of them soon.
Kemmler was associated with the Thule Society though in Fistful of Warlocks, I believe. He also did have a cadre of apprentices and allies - demons, vampires, some of the nastier Fae. He was hardly alone. We've even met at least three of them (Cowl, Grevane, and the Corpsetaker) if not more potentially (two unnamed apprentices in A Fistful of Warlocks) and possibly even others yet to be revealed. I can't say for certain he started the Black Council. But he did much of what they were doing while he was alive. He was destabilising the world order, he was upsetting the balances of power, and he particularly went after the White Council - just like the Black Council. He also used the same symbol as the Denarians (the anarchy pentagram) in a Fistful of Warlocks - and considering it seems like Thorned Namshiel built that particular circle in Small Favor, and he was/is one of the likeliest Black Council candidates on the Denarians prior to Marcone bonding with him, it seems like a link.
Kemmler didn't mind underlings, but he doesn't seem like a team player. I don't get the sense that the Black Council is as old as Kemmler, but they could have been inspired by him.
Again, she was hardly the first person to do that. Kemmler did it, DuMorne did it. Likely other dark wizards. The single biggest indication is that she was fighting to make the Laws fairer and that she was plotting to do just that with dubious persons.
I mean, DuMorne did it as part of the Black Council and after Maggie Sr, presumably. Does he really count as another example?
Also, we don't know Simon is Cowl. We don't know if Maggie and Simon ever met. It's possible but not confirmed, and Cowl's identity is also not confirmed. We do know that Simon and Maggie were associated, possibly even friends/lovers. But it's harder to make any guesses without more of Maggie's history.
Do we know that Maggie Sr and Simon were associated independently? The implication ran the other direction on my part. Assume Simon=Cowl (supported by the Eb relationship circumstances and how few if any named characters fit better) then Maggie Sr. as BC founder would be aware of seemingly the BC's leader.
It's interesting, because on the one hand we can assume with reasonable certainty that the Outsiders precede Creation. Therefore Nemesis is as old as anything. On the other hand, several characters have referred to Nemesis as "a new force". I think it's likely that Nemesis has been bound or dormant prior to the events of the series but someone unleashed it. Maybe Maggie, maybe Kemmler, maybe Justin, who knows?
Who has referred to Nemesis as "new"? The BC is a new force, but I don't think BC=Nemesis.
Maggie would have had to be absolutely nuts to think that a mind-controlling monster from beyond reality that only seeks to unravel creation would have been a good ally let alone controllable. There are probably far less dangerous ways to shape the Council without risking the destruction of all. If anything, I think once Maggie realised how bad things were she backed out.
Margaret LeFay, famous explorer of the Nevernever, is not afraid of taking incredible risks. I agree with you on the backing out part. My theory is that's exactly what she did after she figured out her legion of doom was going too far, and it probably was the reason she got killed.
In White Knight, Harry says to Murphy that should the White Council lose the war the Red Court would take control of the less kind parts of the world i.e. not first world countries - he specifically names Stalin's old stomping grounds. I think most if not all of South America, Africa, the poorer parts of Europe and the Middle East. They might not have openly declared they were vampires but I doubt they would have been as subtle as previously. Their numbers would have swelled, their power grown and they would have become might again. The White Court would tighten it's grip on the first world countries that imagined themselves more civilised than the rest of the world. Perhaps the Jade Court might even have increased it's control in Asia.
Absolutely, but that's not ending the masquerade either. Vampires would want to rule if possible, but they'd rule as "humans".
Mortals are strong with ferromancy...when united. Against a powerful foe that they don't believe in (that comes from their legends), who they don't understand or know much about...I think by the time they reacted it would be too late. Humanity is easily divided sadly. History teaches us this. We never unite for long, and never with much strength. Maybe with a common foe...but then again there probably would be those who imagine they could somehow exploit the situation for their own advantage and would undermine the efforts of the others. Plenty would continue to deny what was happening even if the vampires came out of the shadows, let alone declared themselves rulers. This is why the White Council is important. It's part of why it was established. Because before the White Council was around mortals were at the mercy of the supernatural world.
Fear is a great uniting force. I think an ended masquerade is genuinely as scary for the supernatural world as the big dogs in PT/BG think it would be.
That's from Peace Talks when Harry banishes the Cornerhounds (the Hounds of Tindalos). Chapter 12, page 34.
Seems pretty definitive to me.
See above.
Hmm, perhaps, but I'm more inclined to see that as a one-off mistake unless it happens more.
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Why would you assume that Eb turned Margaret down? It simply says they fought. Almost certainly she was peddling Starborns. And we got Harry. Jim goes out of his way to introduce the fact that Eb was well practiced in Astronomy by having him kill Ortega with a satellite. The timing of the reveal in Changes is interesting because it was in Changes.
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Why would you assume that Eb turned Margaret down? It simply says they fought. Almost certainly she was peddling Starborns. And we got Harry. Jim goes out of his way to introduce the fact that Eb was well practiced in Astronomy by having him kill Ortega with a satellite. The timing of the reveal in Changes is interesting because it was in Changes.
Fighting usually implies disagreement? Producing starborn is actually an interesting proposal for the dinner. I had something along a "want to join our secret club, Blackstaff? You're already mostly immune to the effects of black magic" idea in mind.
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Maggie—my Maggie—asked me to a dinner. She’d just taken up with that Raith bastard. Arianna was there. Maggie didn’t warn me. They had some scheme they wanted my support on. The vampires thought I was just Maggie’s mentor, then.” He sighed. “I wanted nothing to do with it. Said she shouldn’t want it, either. And we fought.”
The interesting portion is the distinction between him as mentor and him as father. Try this conversation on for size.
"Hey dad I want to Create a Starborn child to use as a weapon."
"Have you lost your mind?" he replies, "What mother would turn her child into a weapon?"
Him there as the Black Staff representing the Council. And she was enthralled. Nobody knowing at that moment that she was his daughter.
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The interesting portion is the distinction between him as mentor and him as father. Try this conversation on for size.
"Hey dad I want to Create a Starborn child to use as a weapon."
"Have you lost your mind?" he replies, "What mother would turn her child into a weapon?"
Him there as the Black Staff representing the Council. And she was enthralled. Nobody knowing at that moment that she was his daughter.
Yeah, that's a definite possibility. Maybe not even that explicit. She might have been pushing for more information on what exactly a starborn is and how to make one. Listens to Wind doesn't think he's got enough perspective to let Harry in on the secret, so Maggie Sr prying via her father might cause something like that.
It would also prompt the question of why Maggie Sr would be asking about starborn at all. Being a founding BC member would fit there.