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The Dresden Files => DF Spoilers => Topic started by: g33k on April 28, 2022, 03:26:51 AM
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n.b. "Lasciel's Shadow" and not "Lash."
In another thread, I advanced this theory. I haven't seen anyone suggest it previously... but I could easily have missed it. Apologies if this has previously been thrashed-over!
I thought the notion seemed solid enough to present as its own topic, under its own title. Below, I expand on the idea (a bit of text copied from that thread).
In Battle-Ground, Harry goes ragemode, loses his temper, and tries to kill Rudy. A couple of Knights of the Cross step in... in fact, the ONLY TWO THERE ARE step in!
Let's think back to the last time Harry was called-out for losing his temper: he had to have a chat with the Shadow, for amping-up his rage.
Let's think about Changes for a moment... Harry gets a call from Susan, learns about Maggie, and... begins to feel a "subterranean" rage begin growing. Almost like something in his unconscious was deliberately holding it in check, stoking it, shaping it. "Protect the offspring" says id!Harry... who we know speaks more freely to the Shadow. And at the end of that story, in a burst of "out-of-nowhere" inspiration, Harry comes up with the idea of... sabotaging the woman he (still!) loves, the mother of his child; and sacrificing her to the blood-magic ritual. Seems almost... fiendishly inspired, eh? And then he suffers 2 minutes of amnesia. Gee, whatever could have happened there? Nothing too bad, surely! Those 2 minutes were called a "Chekhov's Gun" and I think it nearly-certain that's right.
Back to Battle Ground, where that Harry-vs-Butters battle scene ended when Butters' Sword stripped off the WK-Mantle... and also revealed the scent of Brimstone. When was the last time Harry's powers smelt of Brimstone? Maybe the Sword also stripped away the Shadow's ability to cloud Harry's senses, hmmm?
Theoretically, Sanya came to Chicago to fight Ethniu, but... that's not the Knights' job! Their job is to oppose the Fallen and to redeem the Fallen's Host. Now the world's entire complement of KotC's are tag-teaming one person... I'm gonna say the odds favor that person being a Denarian.
"But wait" you cry. "Bob already told Harry, after the Raith Deeps, that (a) his head was full of holes & (b) a chunk of his soul was gone." Ergo, Lash really did sacrifice herself, and is gone (producing Bonea, of course).
Yep, I agree! Lash -- the part of the Shadow that Harry "converted" and gave a bit of soul to -- is gone. But as we already know (from seeing Evil Bob, and from Bob's nervousness about Evil-Bob-stuff): these "Spirits of Intellect" can be split in two, with each part remaining a largely-cohisive whole; and furthermore, WoJ has stated that Bonea's genesis was very very much like Bob's; Bob&Bonea are like Bobbsey Twins!
Lasciel... the Temptress, the Deceiver, the Weaver of Webs. I mean... what are the odds she might have laid a deeper deception against Harry? Abandoned one mask, that had failed, and retreated to the deep shadows to try again once Harry had "learned for certain" that the Shadow was gone.
I'm gonna say Jim has given us all the clues we need.
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The problem is Uriel, HE would know so either your wrong or Uriel is playing along with Lash.
The latter is not impossible if it is part of a wider redemption arc being played out by Uriel for Lash, a longer play to re-unite Lash with Lasciel to allow her to be Risen, which ultimately is what he is after. Getting hosts redeemed like Sasha is a big win, but returning a Fallen to the fold dwarfs it in comparison.
I think in the Dresden Files we are going to see Harry responsible at least in part for the creation of a Risen, the redemption of a Fallen and it could be either Lasciel or Anduriel given his extended interaction with them/their hosts. If Lash in some degree survived then my money is on Lasciel. Certainly part of Lash survived in Bonea, so that story line really hasn’t ended yet.
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Never say never. But Harry has had rage issues since Storm Front. Where he proclaims...
The Shadowman was inside, and he was gathering his might, preparing to unleash the spell that would kill me. What reason had I to let him go on breathing?
I clenched my fists in fury, and I could feel the air crackle with tension as I prepared to destroy the lake house, the Shadowman, and any of the pathetic underlings he had with him. With such power, I could cast my defiance at the Council itself, the gathering of white-bearded old fools without foresight, without imagination, without vision. The Council, and that pathetic watchdog, Morgan, had no idea of the true depths of my strength. The energy was all there, gleeful within my anger, ready to reach out and reduce to ashes all that I hated and feared.
Seems pretty rage like to me.
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Never say never. But Harry has had rage issues since Storm Front. Where he proclaims...Seems pretty rage like to me.
Issues? Um the Shadowman was getting ready to explode his heart remotely.. He proved he could do it, Harry saw the results.. So hell yeah, he'd want to kill him before he was killed. The issue isn't that he contemplated doing it, the issue is why didn't he? People in a rage don't stop to think, they just act.. That scene doesn't at all demonstrate "rage issues" on Harry's part.
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Examine the prose. How Butcher wrote what he wrote and what he said. The threat is merely the motivation. Tonally it is remarkably similar the the internal dialog just before he attacks Rudolph.
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Consider that Lasciel's coin was taken up by another after Harry. Would that extinguish the shadow residing in his head? If the fallen are bound to the coin, would the acceptance by another be enough? Sort of an "Oh well...not gonna waste anymore time on Harry when I've got another host willingly embracing me."
Certainly, JB, can write it however he wants, but that would seem to be kinda soap opera-ish to me.
As far as Sanya being in Chicago, Marcone has a coin and was in play throughout whether he used Nam's powers or not. Though he was revealed at the end of the story, maybe the holiness of the swords was necessary to contribute to the stopping of Ethniu. There is the mention of something divine being something that had power against her armor, I think.
I like the theory and that's one of the main reasons I'm here---to listen and reflect on ideas of this community. Just not sure about this one.
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Possible, but I'm not convinced the smell of brimstone was even so external as anything still riding in Harry's passenger seat.
Soulfire and Hellfire are two sides of the same coin - I think that was Harry on the verge of corrupting Uriel's gift simply out of his own wrath and Winter's influence over how to express it, and the Knights were deployed to get him to step back from that brink.
Pretty sure something 'cheated' to arrange Harry's failure to get a shield up and Rudolph's semi-accidental trigger finger in order to provoke him to such a reaction, too. That might have given Uriel the leeway to move pieces to save Harry's soul.
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Soulfire and Hellfire are two sides of the same coin - I think that was Harry on the verge of corrupting Uriel's gift simply out of his own wrath and Winter's influence over how to express it, and the Knights were deployed to get him to step back from that brink.
Except when he went after Rudolph he didn't use Soul Fire, didn't even think to call it up. It may be a subtle difference, but he didn't cross the line.. I don't think the Winter Mantle had anything to do with Harry striking out at Rudolph, that was pure reaction when he witnessed something one should never witness, and Harry simply lost it.. When wizards lose it, it is very bad ass..
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The problem is Uriel, HE would know so either your wrong or Uriel is playing along with Lash.
The latter is not impossible if it is part of a wider redemption arc being played out by Uriel for Lash, a longer play to re-unite Lash with Lasciel to allow her to be Risen, which ultimately is what he is after. Getting hosts redeemed like Sasha is a big win, but returning a Fallen to the fold dwarfs it in comparison.
I think in the Dresden Files we are going to see Harry responsible at least in part for the creation of a Risen, the redemption of a Fallen and it could be either Lasciel or Anduriel given his extended interaction with them/their hosts. If Lash in some degree survived then my money is on Lasciel. Certainly part of Lash survived in Bonea, so that story line really hasn’t ended yet.
I suspect (if my WAG is right) that Uriel simply feels that Harry has demonstrated enough ability to resist the Shadow, and to turn back from brinks that he was set-up upon; Uriel can work with Harry even though the Shadow's still there.
I too agree that one (or more?) of the Fallen may be on redemption-arcs. My bet is Anduriel; but maybe Nicodemus will instead give up the Coin (it seems to me another likely redemption-arc). I don't think that Harry's Lash has much bearing on Lasciel, though!
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Never say never. But Harry has had rage issues since Storm Front. Where he proclaims...
[SNIP]
Seems pretty rage like to me.
Rage, sure. But he self-controlled it. The key issue is: Harry didn't do it. Harry didn't use his magic to do something "wrong."
I'm pointing to times where Harry used beyond-mortal means -- whether his wizard power, his WK-mantle, or an ancient Rampire blood-magic ritual -- to actually do something wrong.
I note he was also similarly-tempted under Hexenwulf-belt influence, for example.
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Consider that Lasciel's coin was taken up by another after Harry. Would that extinguish the shadow residing in his head? If the fallen are bound to the coin, would the acceptance by another be enough? Sort of an "Oh well...not gonna waste anymore time on Harry when I've got another host willingly embracing me."
I don't think the Fallen have any control over (or feedback from) their Shadows... except (maybe) Anduriel?
"Master of Shadows" has maybe got an extra leg up... ).
They are like photocopies -- you can put it on a corkboard, use it as a blueprint, stuff it in a filing-cabinet, run it through a shredder. None of it affects (or is affected by) the Fallen who made it.
So Lasciel has a new host? Pffft. Other Shadows will just go, "fine, I'm warming up in the bullpen."
... As far as Sanya being in Chicago, Marcone has a coin and was in play throughout whether he used Nam's powers or not...
Yes, but... did either Knight ever do anything about Marcone or Namshiel?
I repeat: two Knights of the Cross teamed up in combat against one opponent.
Given what their explicit mission is -- Denarians -- I will point out that Jim could have written
(a) either Knight as sufficient;
(b) or even Billy;
(c) or any of Harry's other friends;
but that two Knights stumbling into the same scene & acting in concert is really, really strong evidence they are specifically facing Denarian/Fallen action.
I like the theory and that's one of the main reasons I'm here---to listen and reflect on ideas of this community. Just not sure about this one.
Oh, I'm not "sure" about it, either; it's clearly just a WAG, not a surety!
But I think the key "KotC action" argument is just incredibly strong... and there's some circumstantial lines of evidence that IMO run much more strongly to corroboration than to contradiction.
As you say -- interesting ideas from the community are a great feature of this forum! And if someone "proves" me wrong... I'm OK with that, too! (noting that no WAG is proven or disproven until WoJ or its actual proof/disproof in canonical DF stories).
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... When wizards lose it, it is very bad ass..
Yeah... except Harry didn't use much wizardry, either. Mostly, he used the Winter Mantle.
Lasciel don't care. Wizardry or Mantles... power in the hands of mortals is a wonderful thing!
Power corrupts; and in that moment -- barring KotC intervention -- Harry had all the power needed vs. Rudy.
... I don't think the Winter Mantle had anything to do with Harry striking out at Rudolph, that was pure reaction when he witnessed something one should never witness, and Harry simply lost it ...
I agree that Harry "just lost it" when he saw something so terrible to him.
And there was the WK-mantle: cold revenge, territoriality, rage, and extreme physicality; just sitting there for him to pick up and use.
Look at what he did: he was about to commit murder, out of revenge; he beat the crap out of a dear friend; and started to do so with another.
Tell me again -- more convincingly -- why he'd do those (especially Sanya & Butters!) if his "inner rage" wasn't getting artificially-amped-up...?
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Rage, sure. But he self-controlled it. The key issue is: Harry didn't do it. Harry didn't use his magic to do something "wrong."
I'm pointing to times where Harry used beyond-mortal means -- whether his wizard power, his WK-mantle, or an ancient Rampire blood-magic ritual -- to actually do something wrong.
I note he was also similarly-tempted under Hexenwulf-belt influence, for example.
Actually his Mother's spirit may have stopped him.I held it in my hand, felt its cool strength, its ordered and rational geometry. The five-pointed star within the circle was the ancient sign of white wizardry, the only remembrance of my mother. The cold strength of the pentacle gave me a chance, a moment to think again, to clear my head.
I took deep breaths, struggling to see clear of the anger, the hate, the deep lust that burned within me for vengeance and retribution.
You see you can hold rage in a thousand times till the time comes that you can't. This happens again when he finds that Raith killed his mother. This is why that Listens To Wind offer to help him with his anger issues.
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Yeah... except Harry didn't use much wizardry, either. Mostly, he used the Winter Mantle.
The Winter Mantle makes it hard for him, but he has lost it wizardwise as well. The latter admittedly under the influence of Lasciel's Shadow, but when the Ghouls killed and ate part of those sixteen year old Warden trainees, Harry lost it totally, there was no Winter Mantle then. He also lost it at Bianca's party after he realized those kids were being poisoned or turned, that they tried to unmake a Holy Sword and a few other things. but he totally lost it and there wasn't any Shadow influence yet either.
Look at what he did: he was about to commit murder, out of revenge; he beat the crap out of a dear friend; and started to do so with another.
I need to listen tomorrow, and perhaps you as well to either Fresh Air or the show that comes on around 10:00 am on NPR radio tomorrow. A psychologist is going to come to explain why it is that people sometimes "snap" or "lose it"
“Why We Snap” outlines nine, but some of the most common ones are a life or death threat, threat to a loved one, threat to your home, or threat to your tribe. “Our brain is wired to constantly be on the lookout for threats,” Fields says. “In response to sudden danger, we react automatically; you can't think about
That is what happened to Harry, seeing Murphy shot then dying in his arms, he snapped, if he were just an ordinary vanilla human it still would have happened. He would have taken a weapon or used his bare hands, but he would have gone after Rudolph and through anyone who tried to stop him. Let us not also forget that Rudolph wasn't just some random careless cop who's bad habits finally caught up to him. He had been after Murphy and Harry for some time, so Harry had every reason in the moment to believe what Rudolph did was no accident. Harry is a powerful wizard and Winter Knight to boot , I think the only thing in that moment that could have stopped him was a warning burn from a Holy Sword. Which it did, Butters and Sanya understood that and forgave him.
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Snapping implies a loss of control. In terms of character development why did Butcher have Harry lose his shit? What did the passage accomplish? What was it meant to do? I understand the emotional shorthand that Butcher is using, at least in part.
Butcher is showing you the monster. The other Harry. the Harry that is arrogant, full of rage, and absolutely cock sure of himself. Who is certain that what he is doing is right, and the way it's supposed to be.
Rudolph isn't the Red King, he's only a threat by accident. When Harry kills Susan you can accept it however morally grey, because Harry is still thinking and you know that Susan would have done whatever it took to save her daughter. Harry is evil in this passage because killing Rudolph serves no purpose. Murphy is dead and that can't be changed. Harry is angry because Rudolph took one of his toys and broke it. He wants Rudolph destroyed. He wants him to suffer and be reduced to something no longer quite human.
Remember what Lea told Harry in Ghost Story?“Is that the lesson you took from the memory?” Lea asked, her smile spreading. “You were clearly being prepared to be an enforcer.” “It seems that way,” I hedged, trying to read her expression. “But Justin never actually tried to get me to hurt anyone.” “Why would he wish you to be armed against him before he was certain of your loyalty?” Lea asked. “He would have. It was inevitable.” “Probably,” I said. “But there’s no way we can know, really. It’s a long way from breaking boards in practice to breaking bones in life.” “Quite. Because convincing a young mortal to believe that it is right and proper to use magic for violence is a delicate process and one that cannot be rushed.”
Butcher, Jim. Ghost Story (The Dresden Files, Book 13) (pp. 353-354). Penguin Publishing Group. Kindle Edition.
My contention is that now you know. Harry was programmed to react in this way.
I feel sorry for Harry because as a character he's been abused by people close to him. He was programmed to be a psychopath. He's trying to be something more. I wish I was going to see how it all turns out.
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... but he would have gone after Rudolph and through anyone who tried to stop him ...
Not anyone.
If Michael had stood in his way?
Mouse? You think he would have attacked Mouse?
Sanya is a very-iffy "maybe" to me: Harry knows Sanya as one of the "good guys," always an ally, always trustworthy. But also, always a fighter; so I can kinda-sorta see Harry fighting Sanya to get what he wants so badly (to kill Rudy).
Butters, I think, is off-limits to a Harry not "under the influence." Butters has just barely emerged from the "helpless nerd who needs protecting" stage of things. I can see rage-Harry pushing Butters aside, shoving even. But not an outright attack with deadly force; again: unless "under the influence."
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Snapping implies a loss of control. In terms of character development why did Butcher have Harry lose his shit? What did the passage accomplish? What was it meant to do? I understand the emotional shorthand that Butcher is using, at least in part.
Butcher is saying first and foremost, Harry is a human being. His reaction given his love for Murphy and the stress of being on a war footing is normal! Audie Murphy spoke of the same thing happening to him in a battle, his best friend was killed in front of him, something snapped and he took out a whole hill of machine gun nest all by himself. That psychologist says it is built into the human brain, it is a normal reaction though not all are perhaps as extreme as Harry's was, but there are those that are.
Not anyone.
Yeah, anyone, if you have never had that kind of reaction you don't understand. When our son killed himself, my husband tried to stop me from going to his room. I literately ran over him in the hallway to get to his room. Nothing was going to stop me. Apparently two trained Holy Warriors couldn't stop Harry from going after Rudolph. Oh they could have shot him, I suppose, but other than that Sword burn, nothing else would have brought him back to his senses.
If Michael had stood in his way?
Mouse? You think he would have attacked Mouse?
No, Michael wouldn't have been able to stop him. Mouse perhaps with sheer physical animal strength, taking him down and sitting on him. Or maybe not even him because the Winter Knight Mantle would have taken over. We are talking about the same combination of hormones that take over that allows an 80 pound kid to lift a car that has fallen on his father.
Sanya is a very-iffy "maybe" to me: Harry knows Sanya as one of the "good guys," always an ally, always trustworthy. But also, always a fighter; so I can kinda-sorta see Harry fighting Sanya to get what he wants so badly (to kill Rudy).
Rationally maybe, and you'd be right, except when a person "snaps" they are no longer thinking rationally.
As Dr Fields says
“Why We Snap” outlines nine, but some of the most common ones are a life or death threat, threat to a loved one, threat to your home, or threat to your tribe. “Our brain is wired to constantly be on the lookout for threats,” Fields says. “In response to sudden danger, we react automatically; you can't think about
Butters, I think, is off-limits to a Harry not "under the influence." Butters has just barely emerged from the "helpless nerd who needs protecting" stage of things. I can see rage-Harry pushing Butters aside, shoving even. But not an outright attack with deadly force; again: unless "under the influence."
Which proves the point actually, a rationally thinking Harry would never attack Butters. Heck even in Skin Game when Butters was attacking him, Harry did his best not to hurt him.
Butcher is showing you the monster. The other Harry. the Harry that is arrogant, full of rage, and absolutely cock sure of himself. Who is certain that what he is doing is right, and the way it's supposed to be.
No, Butcher is showing us a human being. You and I under the various circumstances are capable of snapping just like he was. Oh you can claim you wouldn't but apparently it isn't a voluntary reaction according to Dr Fields, it is wired into a part of our brains. What you are saying might apply to Harry in other ways, but had nothing to do with his reaction to Murphy being shot and dying in his arms in that moment.
My contention is that now you know. Harry was programmed to react in this way.
No more that you are or I am... He maybe programmed but his reaction to Murphy's death had nothing to do with that.
I feel sorry for Harry because as a character he's been abused by people close to him. He was programmed to be a psychopath. He's trying to be something more. I wish I was going to see how it all turns out.
No, he isn't a psychopath..
Psychopathy is a maladaptive personality disorder character- ized by such traits as a lack of remorse, manipulativeness, egocentricity, superficial charm, and shallow affect (Cleckley, 1941; Hare, 1991).
Harry was totally remorseful, and he feels empathy for those that suffered and died, he is no psychopath.
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For me this conversation is over. I don't care or dare to respond to what you have written. I asked for a narrative reason and you've given me something isn't appropriate for this venue.
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The Shadow is gone. That's confirmed in Small Favor during his fight with Nic on the beach. Nic calls on the Shadow to disable Harry and gets a big shock when Harry grabs the Noose while telling Nic the Shadow doesn't live there anymore. That seems pretty clear.
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The Shadow is gone. That's confirmed in Small Favor during his fight with Nic on the beach. Nic calls on the Shadow to disable Harry and gets a big shock when Harry grabs the Noose while telling Nic the Shadow doesn't live there anymore. That seems pretty clear.
Yes, and it is later confirmed by Uriel, that is why he was gifted Soul Fire to balance the scales.
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Yes, and it is later confirmed by Uriel, that is why he was gifted Soul Fire to balance the scales.
Because giving Harry a tie wouldn’t have been enough.
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Because giving Harry a tie wouldn’t have been enough.
Oh perfect, one of those loud ties, maybe with peacocks on it to counter Nic's noose.. ::)
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Because giving Harry a tie wouldn’t have been enough.
Thomas gave Harry a bow tie.
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Thomas gave Harry a bow tie.
That could work, but Harry doesn't seem the bow tie type... Maybe a nice bolo tie with a nice gaudy
defense slide.. He adjusts it an all hell breaks lose.. ;)
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The only tie Harry could comfortably wear is a Wiley Coyote character tie if given to him by Maggie. It would have be a clip on (Nick tries to strangle him by it, Surprise!) He would have to wear matching socks though. Nick’s socks are probably unholy.
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The only tie Harry could comfortably wear is a Wiley Coyote character tie if given to him by Maggie. It would have be a clip on (Nick tries to strangle him by it, Surprise!) He would have to wear matching socks though. Nick’s socks are probably unholy
Yes, in contrast to Harry who toes the line so closely that his are down right sanctified.
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The Shadow is gone. That's confirmed in Small Favor during his fight with Nic on the beach. Nic calls on the Shadow to disable Harry and gets a big shock when Harry grabs the Noose while telling Nic the Shadow doesn't live there anymore. That seems pretty clear.
Lasciel may have instructed her Shadow otherwise, when placing it; we know they don't all get along!
The only Denarian whose "order" I'd believe would have been Lasciels...
And frankly, not even then.
These are beings whose plans stretch into multiple centuries... You think they aren't willing to lay a "Long Con" against a Starborn Wizard (who already notched his belt with a Darkhallow & a Summer Lady, so getting notable) to convince him (after giving the Shadow a solid few months to tempt him) that the Shadow was gone?
I'd even be willing to believe -- though I admit this is a stretch -- that the entire "Assault on the Whamps in the Raith Deeps" scene was mainly a cover operation so "Lash" could bow out of the equation and the Shadow could go back to covert manipulation, and Nic's order was to reinforce that it WAS gone.
We'll have to see (in a volume or two) if Harry comes to the same conclusion, and re-confronts the Shadow.
I mean, it IS all a WAG for now!
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That could work, but Harry doesn't seem the bow tie type... Maybe a nice bolo tie with a nice gaudy
defense slide.. He adjusts it an all hell breaks lose.. ;)
A hat.
Mirror!Harry will have a hat.
And it will be an Evil Hat.
(just in case anyone here doesn't already know: the DF roleplaying game is published by a company named "Evil Hat")
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The Hat’s a given, we have been seeing covers from the Mirrorverse all along.
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Lasciel may have instructed her Shadow otherwise, when placing it; we know they don't all get along!
The only Denarian whose "order" I'd believe would have been Lasciels...
And frankly, not even then.
These are beings whose plans stretch into multiple centuries... You think they aren't willing to lay a "Long Con" against a Starborn Wizard (who already notched his belt with a Darkhallow & a Summer Lady, so getting notable) to convince him (after giving the Shadow a solid few months to tempt him) that the Shadow was gone?
I'd even be willing to believe -- though I admit this is a stretch -- that the entire "Assault on the Whamps in the Raith Deeps" scene was mainly a cover operation so "Lash" could bow out of the equation and the Shadow could go back to covert manipulation, and Nic's order was to reinforce that it WAS gone.
We'll have to see (in a volume or two) if Harry comes to the same conclusion, and re-confronts the Shadow.
I mean, it IS all a WAG for now!
The Sigil is gone, Molly tiptoed through Harry's Tulips, he got a power up from Mr. Sunshine and his soul went on a walkabout in Ghost Story. If she's in there, she's well hidden. But I admire an optimist.
I on the other hand suggest she's hiding in plain sight.
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The Sigil is gone, Molly tiptoed through Harry's Tulips, he got a power up from Mr. Sunshine and his soul went on a walkabout in Ghost Story. If she's in there, she's well hidden. But I admire an optimist.
Making the Sigil go away is presumably easy for a Fallen; given that it was only a Shadow -- not an actual Fallen -- I'm guessing it was a "False Flag" planted to help the victim (Harry) feel guilty, and hopeless: already Marked, already Claimed, already on-file with a change-of-address to "Warmer Climes" (all a lie, of course; but lies are how they roll Down There).
Molly's good, but a relative novice. She was losing mentally to Capiorcorpus, who was just a century or two old; I'm sure the Shadow of a Fallen is hidden from most mortal mind-magic; even a natural talent like Molly (maybe if she'd had another century's experience, it'd have been different? Or maybe not!). Note, for example -- a Fallen had just exerted mental influence to make Harry suicidal. That's a major invasion, fresh in his mind... and he calls on Molly to help him... and she didn't notice anything.
Mr. Sunshine's powerup, I think, had several purposes. First, it's reward for resisting the Shadow so long; second, Up There thinks that Harry's gonna to keep fighting the Outsiders, and wants the Starborn Wizard suitably equipped. Third -- and perhaps most importantly -- Harry now has a tangible proof that the Divine approves of him, of what he does, of how he does it.
Because we know that Harry having faith in himself and his magic is critical to his success; and that particular "attaboy" is particularly meaningful to him; he is officially on the same team that Michael Carpenter is on, and Michael is "the best man Harry knows."
If it turns out that Harry does still have Lasciel's Shadow (and Lash is gone) that's gonna hit him in the morale really hard. Knowing he has Soulfire (Heaven's vote of confidence in him) could be a key asset in resisting a new assault on his independence.
Really: how often do you think Uriel's actions are a single-ply deep in complexity? I'm quite certain there are other layers that I haven't spotted; even if my "Lasciel's still there" theory turns out to be wrong.
Harry's soul *did* go walkabout, it's true. But he took everything with him on his little jaunt (except his living vitality), and brought it all back. Or, possibly, Lasciel stayed quiescent in his meat-brain, and when he woke back in his body, so did she.
(n.b. despite my arguing with you: the admiration is mutual!)
I on the other hand suggest she's hiding in plain sight.
"She" the Shadow, or Lasciel herself?
We're told that the Shadow -- all that's left of her (traces? some? most? all? we don't really have a clue, afaik) -- became Bonea.
However, I'm uncertain we've been told that by anyone both sufficiently-informed and sufficiently-unbiased that we can rely on that info; I consider it only a "working theory."
Or are you suggesting that Lasciel herself has found a new Host "in plain sight" ... i.e. with one of Harry's friends/acquaintences (maybe Lara? maybe one of the Alpha's? etc).
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No. I'm suggesting that when the heat was on that Lash saw a way to break free and burned out the parts that linked her to Lasciel. She then created the character of Bonea to hide in. Pancake recipes and all. Now to be clear this is my fantasy, who knows what Butcher has planned. But it works within the story. In my internal book she is watching over Maggie and waiting for her moment. She is the redeemed Lasciel. In my story she becomes the Archive.
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No. I'm suggesting that when the heat was on that Lash saw a way to break free and burned out the parts that linked her to Lasciel. She then created the character of Bonea to hide in. Pancake recipes and all. Now to be clear this is my fantasy, who knows what Butcher has planned. But it works within the story. In my internal book she is watching over Maggie and waiting for her moment. She is the redeemed Lasciel. In my story she becomes the Archive.
I'm pretty down with that theory, except one element: every indication is that Lasciel's Shadow was fully disconnected from Lasciel the Fallen. If there WAS a genuine connection, Lasciel would have moved to prevent the Shadow from disconnecting them.
How about this: "Lash" was having an inner fight against "Lasciel's Shadow" (very much in the Bob-vs-EvilBob model). What Lash burned out was most of what was left of the old/original Shadow. But the whole event created tremendous trauma -- Lash was fighting (and destroyed) a part of herself, after all -- and what survived has "regressed" and is in many ways very simple and childlike.
I don't think "Lash" would have been lying to Harry, in the aftermath of the Raith Deeps. She was ready to come clean about most everything; for her to instigate an entirely new deception seems... off-kilter.
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That would work.
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Uriel sees Dresden without deception, and Mr Sunshine would not be supporting Dresden now. Lasciel is gone.
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Uriel sees Dresden without deception, and Mr Sunshine would not be supporting Dresden now. Lasciel is gone.
... unless Uriel has decided, "he's done it this long, he can keep doing it; shadow or not... And one day, this 'vote of confidence' may be just the reassurance he needs, to keep the Shadow from convincing him."
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Uriel is an intellectus, he always knew.
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Just rereading Battleground where Harry goes after Rudy and Butters tags him with the Sword. There's the smell of sulfur and brimstone. So, if not the Shadow, then...? Maybe just a hellish moment for Harry all the way around (capital H hell as well?)
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Just rereading Battleground where Harry goes after Rudy and Butters tags him with the Sword. There's the smell of sulfur and brimstone. So, if not the Shadow, then...? Maybe just a hellish moment for Harry all the way around (capital H hell as well?)
This, to me, is a key point.
"Brimstone" has always (before this) been a signpost of the Fallen.
Add that Harry was having an out-of-control rage (with admittedly good justification)... almost identical to what Lasciel's Shadow used to foster.
So, Harry most likely has a Fallen Shadow.
Unless folks are suggesting that he's become an actual Knight of the Blackened Denarius...?
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This, to me, is a key point.
"Brimstone" has always (before this) been a signpost of the Fallen.
Add that Harry was having an out-of-control rage (with admittedly good justification)... almost identical to what Lasciel's Shadow used to foster.
So, Harry most likely has a Fallen Shadow.
Unless folks are suggesting that he's become an actual Knight of the Blackened Denarius...?
Unless that wasn't what he smelt at all, it is only what he thought he smelled.. The angel of the Sword was giving him a warning. I have to go back and reread the passage, but if only Harry smelt it, it may not have been real.
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Unless that wasn't what he smelt at all, it is only what he thought he smelled.. The angel of the Sword was giving him a warning. I have to go back and reread the passage, but if only Harry smelt it, it may not have been real.
Unless the Knights have known all along that the Shadow wasn't gone. Harry never really made a big deal of it, to most of his friends; neither the presence of Lasciel's Shadow, nor the loss of Lash.
They *expected* to smell the brimstone, didn't find it worth mentioning, since clearly Harry wasn't ready to talk about it...
And nobody else was there to notice, or report (barring Rudy, but... yeah.).
(Edit -- I don't mean to suggest that it's an obvious and incontrovertible "fact" that the Shadow's still there; but it's a distinct possibility... and not really contradicted, that I can see, anywhere in DV canon) .
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Really, deep down, Harry is a boy scout and a powder puff and wouldn't harm a fly. However if anybody was living in the Hotel Dresden, and Bonea, Molly and Uriel are unaware of it, then the place must have more rooms then Hilbert's Hotel.
Having gotten that out of my system, my distaste for the idea doesn't mean it isn't where Butcher is going. However it might be a mistake to think that Harry is Simon Pure and doesn't have a little demon hidden in the old closet that isn't named Lash. The events of Battle Ground aren't the first time that Harry thought about going over to the Dark Side..
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... Bonea, Molly and Uriel are unaware of it ...
Bonea may be "part of the problem" so to speak. Or she may have simply been created with a specific blind-spot (akin to Bob's inabilty to recall anything to do with Kemmler's lore; in fact, very-directly-parallel... except designed with an extra few million years' experience).
Molly just isn't playing in that league. She's very, very good ...
For a mortal wizard ...
With less than a decade of experience.
Uriel... <shrug>
I don't think we can evaluate him.
Mr. Sunshine is playing the long game. Very, very long. And in the end, it's only the Shadow of the Fallen, and a Shadow that Harry has been mostly-resisting for years. Uriel may be perfectly happy with how Harry is shaping-up as a "Shadowed" mortal.
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Having gotten that out of my system, my distaste for the idea doesn't mean it isn't where Butcher is going. However it might be a mistake to think that Harry is Simon Pure and doesn't have a little demon hidden in the old closet that isn't named Lash. The events of Battle Ground aren't the first time that Harry thought about going over to the Dark Side..
Nobody has ever suggested that Harry is Simon Pure, nobody is, no even Michael.. Yes, and even Michael is capable of going off the deep end when a loved one is hurt. That's one of the lessons if you watch your Star Wars, that is why the Jedi are supposed to remain emotionally detached, they can lose it over a loved one and not get back. That's what happened to Vader..
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Michael also has a potty mouth which apparently lasted from Murphy’s funeral to a couple of weeks later when it finally stopped and he could undertake a hospital visit to a sick child without unintentionally expanding its vocabulary. Apparently he couldn’t help himself, he was swearing every waking moment and even swearing even in his sleep.
Even Michael represses things. Just be glad he hadn’t forsworn maturation, it would have killed him withe dehydration and blood loss.
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The brimstone is just the flip side of Harry’s soul fire. He has access to both because that is what access to soulfire implicitly also means. The brimstone smell was the hellfire offering itself and Harry’s rage could have caused Harry’s fall and then he would have used hellfire in stead of soulfire.
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Didn't Uriel give Harry Soulfire in response to his access to Hellfire? In the aquarium with the force hand? He asks Bob later and Bob says it's soulfire. Until then, it was only hellfire.
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Didn't Uriel give Harry Soulfire in response to his access to Hellfire? In the aquarium with the force hand? He asks Bob later and Bob says it's soulfire. Until then, it was only hellfire.
Nah, Harry lost access to Hellfire after Lash got nuked out of his brain by the psychic attack in the Raith Deeps. Mr Sunshine gave Harry Soulfire in response to the Devil giving Nick a bunch of Hellfire in Small Favor
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Nah, Harry lost access to Hellfire after Lash got nuked out of his brain by the psychic attack in the Raith Deeps. Mr Sunshine gave Harry Soulfire in response to the Devil giving Nick a bunch of Hellfire in Small Favor
Dunno... I wonder if Harry doesn't still know how to use Hellfire; he just chooses not to.
Uriel didn't "give" him Soulfire, Uriel merely "nudged" him, showed him HOW to use Soulfire.
While Lasciel's Shadow was still "incognito," I think the "Hellfire" was being managed through Id!Harry -- the Shadow showed Harry's power-hungry self how to use Hellfire.
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Dunno... I wonder if Harry doesn't still know how to use Hellfire; he just chooses not to.
Uriel didn't "give" him Soulfire, Uriel merely "nudged" him, showed him HOW to use Soulfire.
While Lasciel's Shadow was still "incognito," I think the "Hellfire" was being managed through Id!Harry -- the Shadow showed Harry's power-hungry self how to use Hellfire.
Except Harry doesn't seem very power hungry.
The brimstone is just the flip side of Harry’s soul fire. He has access to both because that is what access to soulfire implicitly also means. The brimstone smell was the hellfire offering itself and Harry’s rage could have caused Harry’s fall and then he would have used hellfire in stead of soulfire.
Key word here is, "could have." Once he came to his senses, he remained as he was before, except for the great shame he felt for losing it and hurting his friends in the process. Harry still loves his friends, and as Uriel told him, that will put him back on track.
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The smell of Brimstone wasn’t Harry using Hellfire, it was Rudy crapping his pants. Occams razor, the simplest explanation is most often the right one.
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The smell of Brimstone wasn’t Harry using Hellfire, it was Rudy crapping his pants. Occams razor, the simplest explanation is most often the right one.
That could be too.. ::)
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Except Harry doesn't seem very power hungry
...
id!Harry is plenty power-hungry.
Mostly, Harry keeps a tight rein on his id.
But the Shadow & id!Harry were "talking" before Harry himself knew about it. And Harry had gotten that whole brimstone/Hellfire thing going, also before Harry himself began overtly talking to the Shadow... how, exactly, if not by working with id!Harry, and getting the Hellfire power-up? (that Harry in his conscious mind would have rejected)
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But the Shadow & id!Harry were "talking" before Harry himself knew about it. And Harry had gotten that whole brimstone/Hellfire thing going, also before Harry himself began overtly talking to the Shadow... how, exactly, if not by working with id!Harry, and getting the Hellfire power-up? (that Harry in his conscious mind would have rejected)
Hell fire didn't happen until after Harry realized that Sheila was the Shadow. There is no evidence that the Id had gotten it going before Harry became aware. We know while he was talking, but the point is the Id has never been able to take over Harry. I think there is more evidence for that actually, because the point of the Shadow was to corrupt and weaken Harry's mind and will so that eventually he'd accept the coin. This didn't happen, so it is natural that the Shadow would try a different angle, Harry's Id. The Id has always been Harry's dark side, long before Lasciel came along, but needed because a lot of Harry's strength comes from it. Another Classic Star Trek episode, that Jim has borrowed from, a transporter accident where Kirk is split into the two side of his personality, the good conscious side and his Id if you will or the dark side.. Turns out he needed both to be what he is and survive/
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Hell fire didn't happen until after Harry realized that Sheila was the Shadow. There is no evidence that the Id had gotten it going before Harry became aware.
Harry's Fuego was smelling of brimstone (without his conscious intent, nor awareness of Sheila as the Shadow) -- and Harry was stressing on it, understanding it to be an influence of Lasciel. We don't know, with any certainty, that it was providing any substantive power-up... or that it wasn't. But it was really there; it wasn't just the Shadow playing mental games. Will smelled it: it was part of recounting how Harry had become darker, scarier... and more-powerful. The fight with Cowl scared the Alphas; they saw for the first time that Harry was moving to a power-scale that was simply out of their league.
I call that "evidence" ... I don't call it "proof!" But I'm advancing a theory, not demonstrating a fact.
When Harry went after Rudy, we saw:
Out of control rage
Muderous intent, and acting on that intent.
Smell of brimstone.
And all the actve Knights of the Cross -- the people tasked with redeeming the Hosts of the Fallen -- taking the field to contain Harry.
The theory fits. Other theories fit, too. This one fits... better than most. (YMMV)
... We know while he was talking, but the point is the Id has never been able to take over Harry...
I'll argue that it has, a (very) few times. Id!Harry almost "took him over" outside Victor Sells' lakehouse, before the climactic battle (it showed us that Harry's dark-side and will-to-power were very strong, sometimes only barely leashed); and a few other times (e.g. when Molly provoked him to slag the garbage-can outside Priority Health(name?) aka the New Velvet Room. It managed to fully do so in Battle for Chicago, when Rudy killed Karrin.
Mostly, the id's urging Harry are just that: "urges" (often dark urges, like most of us have). Mostly, Harry is VERY good about keeping them contained. But nobody's perfect. And while Id!Harry almost never gets to pick exactly what Harry does, there is some influence on Harry's choices & actions.
... This didn't happen, so it is natural that the Shadow would try a different angle, Harry's Id. The Id has always been Harry's dark side, long before Lasciel came along, but needed because a lot of Harry's strength comes from it. Another Classic Star Trek episode, that Jim has borrowed from, a transporter accident where Kirk is split into the two side of his personality, the good conscious side and his Id if you will or the dark side.. Turns out he needed both to be what he is and survive/
100% agree with all of this.
Thing is, the "Sheila Gambit" didn't work, and then "Lash" didn't work either -- in fact, Lash turned against Lasciel!
So the Shadow retreated, to try again. This time, working longer with Id!Harry... staying even further "in the shadows." Not even giving him the brimstone... until revealed by Angelic action.
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So the Shadow retreated, to try again. This time, working longer with Id!Harry... staying even further "in the shadows." Not even giving him the brimstone... until revealed by Angelic action.
That all sounds good, except the coin has moved on.. Hannah Asher accepted it and carried it.. Harry rejected it, If what you say is possible, you could say since he did accept and carried a coin for some time before rejecting it that Sanya still has remnants of his coin's shadow buried with in his Id as well.
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That all sounds good, except the coin has moved on.. Hannah Asher accepted it and carried it.. Harry rejected it, If what you say is possible, you could say since he did accept and carried a coin for some time before rejecting it that Sanya still has remnants of his coin's shadow buried with in his Id as well.
Maybe Sanya has a shadow, maybe he hasn't. Who knows. Could be, there never was a shadow within Sanya's head, because he had actually taken up the coin. He had the real deal.
I remember there have been discussions about whether one Fallen could project multiple shadows in people, who have touched their coin. I think the shadow is supposed to make the host take up the coin, that is it's only purpose. It is not supposed to not succeed.
I have always refused to believe that Lash is completely gone. The part of Harry's brain got damaged, when she protected him. But a wizard heals. I think, his brain could be healed now. So would be what was left of Lash.
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Maybe Sanya has a shadow, maybe he hasn't. Who knows. Could be, there never was a shadow within Sanya's head, because he had actually taken up the coin. He had the real deal.
Yes, and Harry's Shadow was also the real deal, they both rejected it... I think we have to return to the borrowed idea about the darkside of the Force.. Even Knights are subject to the temptation if they are emotionally stirred up enough as Harry was, even Michael.. I bet if Harry hadn't stopped him from smacking Douglas with that baseball bat, the smell of brimstone may have also been present from Michael.. The bigger point is Harry did stop and was ashamed that he had lost it.. He got the warning and didn't proceed to do evil once he came to his senses. Even if you can prove the Shadow is still there, it didn't win..
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That all sounds good, except the coin has moved on.. Hannah Asher accepted it and carried it.. Harry rejected it, If what you say is possible, you could say since he did accept and carried a coin for some time before rejecting it that Sanya still has remnants of his coin's shadow buried with in his Id as well.
The coin has moved on. But once the imprint is placed in the psyche, the Shadow is separate from the Coin... a Denarius and its Fallen can (presumably) change hands/Hosts multiple times, without impact upon a Shadow.
Maybe Sanya has a shadow, maybe he hasn't. Who knows. Could be, there never was a shadow within Sanya's head, because he had actually taken up the coin. He had the real deal.
When you want to talk "unreliable narrator," you have got to include some mention of the Fallen and their Shadows... they're worse than the fae because they can (will!) intentionally-mislead you without any outright lies, but they're also free to lie however they want.
That said... Lasciel's Shadow was quite consistent that when Harry took up the coin, her being would be "re-absorbed" into the Fallen Angel, and cease to be. Presumably (if she was telling the truth (and if she actually knew the truth, because the Fallen Angel could well have lied to her own Shadow!)), the same would be true of Sanya -- if he ever had a Shadow, it would have returned to the Fallen when he fully-accepted the Denarius. Once he rejected the coin, he was fully-free, and un-Shadowed.
Unless, of course, the Fallen & their Shadows have been lying about this.
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... I remember there have been discussions about whether one Fallen could project multiple shadows in people, who have touched their coin ...
I'm in the camp of "a Fallen can imprint as many Shadows as it wants, as often as it finds suitable subjects." It's like sealing-wax and the actual Seal -- the item that imprints onto the wax. There is no limit to the number of wax-sealed documents a single Seal can imprint.
I think that's part of the reason the Church cannot keep hold of the Coins -- every Fallen has a "harem" of a few dozen Shadowed, any of whom can summon the Fallen out of any hidey-hole or Warding that the Church can devise. If the Fallen is already in a Host that it's happy with, it doesn't have to answer the summons... but if it's feeling confined by the white-hankie-and-cross-covered-box habitat, off it goes!
This "harem" would be mostly random & ordinary-seeming people. The Shadows they host mainly advise them in how to be successful in whatever ordinary things they are doing; but also helps them pursue whatever low-grade sins & peccadillo's will "fly under the radar" (but still satisfy their cravings). Namshiel probably likes low-grade magic types to host his shadows, but includes enough others to stay unpredictable; similarly for Lasciel & libidinous people, etc.
Any time the Fallen gets freed from Church constraints, I WAG, the Fallen "rewards" their Host by staying with them for with a year or two, giving them extra power-up & and fulfilling various ambitions/fantasies.
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I have always refused to believe that Lash is completely gone. The part of Harry's brain got damaged, when she protected him. But a wizard heals. I think, his brain could be healed now. So would be what was left of Lash.
But the Shadow wasn't an inherent "Harry-ness" thing; it was imposed from outside him. When Harry healed, the parts of his brain that had been hosting Lash would have been healed without her.
I might even assert that imprinting a Shadow is a form of "damage," and subject to Wizardly healing; that the entire reason that Lasciel's Shadow could become Lash -- and grow into Harry's ally -- was because Harry was healing the damage Lasciel inflicted!
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Yes, and Harry's Shadow was also the real deal ...
No, Harry's shadow was a shadow. In the end, Harry was the boss.
He could lock Lasciel's Shadow into a tiny dark box.
That smelled like his old gym-locker.
Lasciel herself?
Could have broken Harry's mind in a fraction of a second, if so inclined. Or imposed strict mental bondage. Or done almost anything else she wanted (but probably limited by whatever "Deal" Harry had struck; so probably not the worser options!)
Sanya had the "real deal," the actual Fallen Angel... not just the Shadow.
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I know, it's all just speculations, no one can prove anything.
But it could also be that Lash was in that part of Harry's brain that didn't take the damage. She could have been sealed off because another part of the brain was damaged, which made her unable to contact her host. Maybe she cut off the relatively new Lash-part of herself, so that only the original shadow remained in the sealed-off part of the brain. What is left, isn't Lash anymore. It is Lasciel's shadow all over again. The Lash-part was involved in creating Bonea.
Now the brain is healed and the shadow slowly gains access again. Or even has had access for a long time again, but chooses to stay hidden, like you said (g33k).
The sealed off but not damaged part: I've known a patient who had had a stroke and they said, she was blind because of it. But we found out, that she could still see, but the part of her brain, which made her access the information about the things she sees, was damaged, so she saw everything, but couldn't connect the information her eyes took in with the part in her brain, which made her understand what she saw.
I hope I could make that clear. English is not my first language.
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I know, it's all just speculations, no one can prove anything...
The Joy of WAGs!
:o
;D
... I hope I could make that clear. English is not my first language.
Quite clear, I thought (English is my first language; and your English is much better than either my French or my Spanish!)
Or at least, as clear as some of this confusing neurological damage can be made... ;)
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Quite clear, I thought (English is my first language; and your English is much better than either my French or my Spanish!)
Oh, thank you. ;)
The Joy of WAGs!
WAGs are only crazy until there is proof they were right.
*manic laughter*
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Sanya had the "real deal," the actual Fallen Angel... not just the Shadow.
It is a mistake to say, "not just the Shadow." Apparently the Shadow is a lot harder to shake than the coin.
Also Lash, is no longer Lasciel, in the end she was no longer willing to do Lasciel's bidding, which was to get Harry to take up the coin. She sacrificed herself instead, or if there is anything left of her I'd say she is working on her redemption. Actually, Bonnie might just be the form that Lash had to take to redeem herself.
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...
WAGs are only crazy until there is proof they were right.
*manic laughter*
<looks startled>
<shrugs>
BWAAA-HA-HA-HA-HAAAAAAAA!