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The Dresden Files => DF Spoilers => Topic started by: groinkick on October 04, 2017, 04:41:33 AM

Title: If Mab dies
Post by: groinkick on October 04, 2017, 04:41:33 AM
What do you think?  I think it could be option 4. 
Title: Re: If Mab dies
Post by: Arjan on October 04, 2017, 06:27:08 AM
Cold Case spoiler:
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Title: Re: If Mab dies
Post by: Kindler on October 04, 2017, 01:27:20 PM
Other: Furious and terrified. First, that something killed Mab in the first place, which would be a job of work and would require a serious amount of asskicking power. Second, that something upset the balance of power between the Courts, and at the Outer Gates. Third, that something came to Dresden's town (either Arctis Tor or Chicago, whichever) and killed his boss.
Title: Re: If Mab dies
Post by: khadgar4606 on October 04, 2017, 02:24:14 PM
unsure killing mab means  we got a super heavy weight treat in town and harry needs to find it fast or next stop it titania and outsiders so. it will be one hell of a book but i dont know mr. butcher has chops to made it( this is not a challenge) its to finicky to handle if molly or any court member is there then okay we have not much problem but if no one from winter is there or this enemy obtains the mabs mantle its kinda gg for every body since its just enough power to go dark side and go mad it provides perfect sh1t storm that its gonna be epic and hard to top in later books
Title: Re: If Mab dies
Post by: Arjan on October 04, 2017, 02:50:23 PM
The mantle will go to Molly automatically. It is the Ladies mantle that moves to the nearest suitable vessel. That will probably her handmaiden whoever that may be but say it is Sunday and she is eating with her family......

According to Bob it won't matter. New Mab, new Maeve, same stuff. We know that is not true.
Title: Re: If Mab dies
Post by: raidem on October 04, 2017, 03:15:48 PM
Alright, first off, we know the rules of succession until we don't.  There is a woj that basically is Jim stating it is that way until he writes it another way.  So, there can be exceptions, peculiarities, extraordianary circumstances, etc that can alter what we know of the rules of succession.

For instance, the reason why Maeve thought she had won in part at Demonreach was that A) there was not an appropriate vessel for the Lady mantle that Mab was entirely sure of, B) candidates outside of circle on Demonreach were excluded due to nature of circle.  Molly was a wild card that Maeve didn't foresee.  So, her belief that it would just be safer for Mab to keep her than risk lady going to another present at Demonreach was in error, though it seems likely it was correct except for happenstance of Molly's presence.  And, of course, Murphy not Mab killing her.

So, I could see a possibility in which Mab is confined within some impenetrable circle, and her death would release a mantle that would be contained within that circle.  It is likely there are defense mechanisms for the mantle to escape but say some non-Lady character but an appropriate vessel was within that circle too.  The mantle could pass to the non Lady making her Mab, but this succession would be outside of the succession rules that we have come to know.
Now, there probably would be a showdown between the Lady and the newly-mented Mab, but however brief her reign, the succession would have been altered contrary to the known rules.

As to Mab dying, first off we have multiple alternate realities and a likelihood at some point of different women holding the Mab mantle at a specific cross-time(infinity) event.  Even when we have the same person as Mab, there is a likelihood that her different deals, and how she goes about either paying them off or collecting on them, contribute to differing modes of behavior across realities.  Even say when we have Mab dying at point A in one reality, there is a likelihood in a high number realities that the point A event may not happen, or may happen slightly before or after specific point A time.  Should there be a slight discrepancy in exactly when Mab dies between realities, and the resulting succession, then one will necessarily have a different person being Mab in one reality, whose reign begins slightly before or after, another original person Mab's reign ends.

Having stated the above, given the topic of this thread, and my favorite WAG, I propose that at some point in one reality Murphy is Mab.  Harry doesn't find out til the end of this particular reality, when she essentially sacrifices herself to take out something greater.  Harry (IdHarry) having glimpsed this in one reality wants a different ending for his Murphy and attempts a long game in getting our realities Harry and Murphy/Mab together more than how the other reality played out.  So, aside from the Outsider, perhaps an end game of saving whatever is left of Murphy from the Mab mantle, having some love relationship between Harry and Murphy that another Harry missed out on....

And then, to include the other WAG, a little Marcone whose origin is tied into TT and unknown parents, namely Harry and Murphy who becomes at some point Mab.

Ok, pretty far out, but to add spice to the series after having read it so many times I like to read things into it and view the books through the lenses of some of these far out WAGs.  Try it sometime if you like and/or get bored.

Title: Re: If Mab dies
Post by: Rasins on October 04, 2017, 05:45:00 PM
Other - a lot of it will depend on the reasons and methods used to kill her (because let's face it, that's the only way she's checking out).
Title: Re: If Mab dies
Post by: SpoonR on October 16, 2017, 05:03:29 PM
Oh no oh no we are in big trouble?   :o

Mab will die for two reasons (three if you count tropes). 1: Mab is at the center of so many webs of oath/debt/vengeance/Unseelie accords that killing her cuts a bunch of Gordian knots. Motive: just about everybody in the setting. For this kind of death, Peace Talks would be an appropriate place.
2. The Apocalypse is coming. The Apocalypse will have to go through Mab to get to Earth. One scenario is the "all of Faerie combined doesn't have quite as much Oomph as Mab. So, after the fight at the Gate goes sour & all the winter warriors die, Mab will hold the gate alone. And then she dies. Bye bye gate."

(all IMO of course)
Title: Re: If Mab dies
Post by: Kimmy T on October 16, 2017, 07:32:06 PM
I agree with SpoonR.  Mab can die in only one way.  The Outsiders finally manage to bring down the Outer Gates.  As their armies come raging through the remains of the Gate; they come face to face with Mab, Queen of Air and Darkness, standing in their way.  Then in the most epic moment in the entire series, Mab fights alone against an entire army of Outsiders and  kicks some major ass.  But, there is just too many of them and Mab eventually goes down in a moment that is both epic, sad, and triumphant.

Title: Re: If Mab dies
Post by: Talby16 on October 16, 2017, 08:19:09 PM
Honestly, if Mab dies my biggest emotion will be shock/fear followed by regret tinged with sadness. IMO, Mab is either going to lay down her life in pursuit of a greater purpose or stratagem of her own design, or she will be taken out by the big bad as a means to establish the threat/power Harry faces. Regardless, Mab is one of the most, if not the most powerful being we see regularly in the books. Seeing her bite the dust is going to be a hard pill to swallow.
Title: Re: If Mab dies
Post by: ebliss1 on October 17, 2017, 10:57:37 AM
Quote
I agree with SpoonR.  Mab can die in only one way.  The Outsiders finally manage to bring down the Outer Gates. 

Not true. We already know from the text that Mab can be killed by Titania also. And Titania is not in a good headspace. If I were Nemesis and I wanted Mab away from the Outer Gates, I'd go after Titania and have her bring down Mab along with her. This would immediately promote Molly to Winter Queen and Sarissa to Summer Queen, leaving the Lady positions wide open, and the Queen positions filled with inexperienced newbies.
Title: Re: If Mab dies
Post by: wardenferry419 on October 17, 2017, 03:20:27 PM
I feel that Mab will go down at a moment of her choosing and when her scales are balanced.
Title: Re: If Mab dies
Post by: peregrine on October 17, 2017, 03:24:27 PM
Quote from: wardenferry419 on October 17, 2017, 03:20:27 PM
I feel that Mab will go down at a moment of her choosing and when her scales are balanced.
Or if somehow the scales cannot be balanced except via her death.
Title: Re: If Mab dies
Post by: wardenferry419 on October 17, 2017, 03:43:48 PM
Agreed.
Title: Re: If Mab dies
Post by: Kimmy T on October 17, 2017, 09:33:15 PM
eblis1 I get what you are saying.  I even like the idea of Titania and Mab throwing down and killing each other.  That would also be a great way to end Mab's story.  My point is that, ever since her introduction in Summer Knight, Mab has been such an important and central part of Harry Dresden's universe that when, and if, it comes time for Mr. Butcher to kill off Mab it must be BIG AND EPIC.  Mab's end must shake the very foundations of the Dresdenverse.  No other death will do for the Queen of Air and Darkness!
Title: Re: If Mab dies
Post by: Rasins on October 26, 2017, 04:16:09 PM
Oh, I don't know.  I believe that Mab is a quite strong willed woman.  Far stronger than the Leansidhe.

That being said, I could totally see her getting nemfected, and in a lucid moment, ordering Harry to kill her.
Title: Re: If Mab dies
Post by: wardenferry419 on October 27, 2017, 10:28:36 AM
I have felt like Mab is on a suicide run for awhile. Is she already infected or just feeling the clock ticking a little faster?
Title: Re: If Mab dies
Post by: Arjan on October 27, 2017, 11:21:40 AM
Quote from: wardenferry419 on October 27, 2017, 10:28:36 AM
I have felt like Mab is on a suicide run for awhile. Is she already infected or just feeling the clock ticking a little faster?
She knows the BAT is coming and is preparing for it.
Title: Re: If Mab dies
Post by: wardenferry419 on October 27, 2017, 11:27:07 AM
Preparing for the battle or preparing to be the death that causes the battle?
Title: Re: If Mab dies
Post by: Rasins on October 27, 2017, 04:29:03 PM
Both?
Title: Re: If Mab dies
Post by: Arjan on October 27, 2017, 04:58:33 PM
Bringing her scales in balance.
Title: Re: If Mab dies
Post by: Cozarkian on October 27, 2017, 06:44:21 PM
"The stars will rain from the sky before Mab fulfills not her word." - Mab, Changes.

The above declaration was actually prophecy. It refers to the BAT book Stars and Stones, when stars will rain from the sky. Once they do, Mab will break her word. However, it is impossible for Mab to break her word -- unless she is nemfected. This is what Harry's true purpose is - Mab wants him as Winter Knight because the Fae Queens are vulnerable to their own power (their own knight) and Harry is the best chance she has at grooming a knight that will be able to kill her. At some point, Mab will reveal to Harry that she is fighting nemfection and ask Harry, as a favor, that when she finally succumbs for him to kill her. Mab failing to refuse her word will be the sign that Harry needs and Harry will successfully kill her at the end of Stars and Stones.

Mab's death will destroy the defense of the Gates, allowing the Outsiders to enter the world for the final book of the trilogy - Empty Night. Further, by killing Mab as a favor, Harry will fulfill the 3rd request from his earlier deal with Mab, and obligation to Mab will cease, including Harry's promise in Changes to become the WK. By that point, Harry will have become accustomed to the power of Winter and in control of the mantle and losing that power will handicap him significantly, and the third book will be a rush for him to learn the true power of a Starborn so that the Outsiders can be repelled and a new defenders of the Gates can be selected.

Based on the above, my emotion when Mab dies will be a drop of sadness in a pool of fear - because it means the all of existence in the DV will be threatened.
Title: Re: If Mab dies
Post by: Rasins on October 27, 2017, 07:06:08 PM
Quote from: Cozarkian on October 27, 2017, 06:44:21 PM
"The stars will rain from the sky before Mab fulfills not her word." - Mab, Changes.

The above declaration was actually prophecy. It refers to the BAT book Stars and Stones, when stars will rain from the sky. Once they do, Mab will break her word. However, it is impossible for Mab to break her word -- unless she is nemfected. This is what Harry's true purpose is - Mab wants him as Winter Knight because the Fae Queens are vulnerable to their own power (their own knight) and Harry is the best chance she has at grooming a knight that will be able to kill her. At some point, Mab will reveal to Harry that she is fighting nemfection and ask Harry, as a favor, that when she finally succumbs for him to kill her. Mab failing to refuse her word will be the sign that Harry needs and Harry will successfully kill her at the end of Stars and Stones.

Mab's death will destroy the defense of the Gates, allowing the Outsiders to enter the world for the final book of the trilogy - Empty Night. Further, by killing Mab as a favor, Harry will fulfill the 3rd request from his earlier deal with Mab, and obligation to Mab will cease, including Harry's promise in Changes to become the WK. By that point, Harry will have become accustomed to the power of Winter and in control of the mantle and losing that power will handicap him significantly, and the third book will be a rush for him to learn the true power of a Starborn so that the Outsiders can be repelled and a new defenders of the Gates can be selected.

Based on the above, my emotion when Mab dies will be a drop of sadness in a pool of fear - because it means the all of existence in the DV will be threatened.

Exactly!!
Title: Re: If Mab dies
Post by: peregrine on October 27, 2017, 09:45:35 PM
Or she's just being poetic.  Mab isn't necessarily never wrong.  She could simply have been referring to a thing that she thinks will never happen.
Title: Re: If Mab dies
Post by: wardenferry419 on October 27, 2017, 11:02:10 PM
Quote from: Cozarkian on October 27, 2017, 06:44:21 PM
"The stars will rain from the sky before Mab fulfills not her word." - Mab, Changes.

The above declaration was actually prophecy. It refers to the BAT book Stars and Stones, when stars will rain from the sky. Once they do, Mab will break her word. However, it is impossible for Mab to break her word -- unless she is nemfected. This is what Harry's true purpose is - Mab wants him as Winter Knight because the Fae Queens are vulnerable to their own power (their own knight) and Harry is the best chance she has at grooming a knight that will be able to kill her. At some point, Mab will reveal to Harry that she is fighting nemfection and ask Harry, as a favor, that when she finally succumbs for him to kill her. Mab failing to refuse her word will be the sign that Harry needs and Harry will successfully kill her at the end of Stars and Stones.

Mab's death will destroy the defense of the Gates, allowing the Outsiders to enter the world for the final book of the trilogy - Empty Night. Further, by killing Mab as a favor, Harry will fulfill the 3rd request from his earlier deal with Mab, and obligation to Mab will cease, including Harry's promise in Changes to become the WK. By that point, Harry will have become accustomed to the power of Winter and in control of the mantle and losing that power will handicap him significantly, and the third book will be a rush for him to learn the true power of a Starborn so that the Outsiders can be repelled and a new defenders of the Gates can be selected.

Based on the above, my emotion when Mab dies will be a drop of sadness in a pool of fear - because it means the all of existence in the DV will be threatened.
Damn that is good! I like it!
Title: Re: If Mab dies
Post by: Talby16 on October 30, 2017, 01:58:28 PM
Quote from: Cozarkian on October 27, 2017, 06:44:21 PM
"The stars will rain from the sky before Mab fulfills not her word." - Mab, Changes.

The above declaration was actually prophecy. It refers to the BAT book Stars and Stones, when stars will rain from the sky. Once they do, Mab will break her word. However, it is impossible for Mab to break her word -- unless she is nemfected. This is what Harry's true purpose is - Mab wants him as Winter Knight because the Fae Queens are vulnerable to their own power (their own knight) and Harry is the best chance she has at grooming a knight that will be able to kill her. At some point, Mab will reveal to Harry that she is fighting nemfection and ask Harry, as a favor, that when she finally succumbs for him to kill her. Mab failing to refuse her word will be the sign that Harry needs and Harry will successfully kill her at the end of Stars and Stones.

Mab's death will destroy the defense of the Gates, allowing the Outsiders to enter the world for the final book of the trilogy - Empty Night. Further, by killing Mab as a favor, Harry will fulfill the 3rd request from his earlier deal with Mab, and obligation to Mab will cease, including Harry's promise in Changes to become the WK. By that point, Harry will have become accustomed to the power of Winter and in control of the mantle and losing that power will handicap him significantly, and the third book will be a rush for him to learn the true power of a Starborn so that the Outsiders can be repelled and a new defenders of the Gates can be selected.

Based on the above, my emotion when Mab dies will be a drop of sadness in a pool of fear - because it means the all of existence in the DV will be threatened.

Nothing else needed. Great summation.
Title: Re: If Mab dies
Post by: wardenferry419 on October 30, 2017, 02:19:38 PM
More eloquent than my "ohh, S#IT!"
Title: Re: If Mab dies
Post by: Talby16 on October 30, 2017, 02:26:05 PM
Quote from: Cozarkian on October 27, 2017, 06:44:21 PM
Based on the above, my emotion when Mab dies will be a drop of sadness in a pool of fear - because it means the all of existence in the DV will be threatened.

That last line alone is perfect. Even without all the build up.
Title: Re: If Mab dies
Post by: wardenferry419 on October 30, 2017, 05:32:29 PM
If Mab dies and Molly moves up as the replacement; who replaces Molly as lady? Best guess anybody?
Title: Re: If Mab dies
Post by: Talby16 on October 30, 2017, 07:02:57 PM
As I understand it (and someone correct me if I am wrong), if Mab dies and Molly moves up she would inherit Mab's mantle, yet still hold the Winter Lady mantle until she can choose someone to replace her. That means it is completely Molly's choice who would replace her. At this point I do not think we have been introduced to a character who fits really well. Murphy, Justine, and Andi could because they have not had children yet, but all are in serious relationships at this time. Here is a longshot: how about Faith. WoJ states that she has a role to play in the BAT. Maybe she steps in as the new Winter Lady.
Title: Re: If Mab dies
Post by: Arjan on October 30, 2017, 07:13:41 PM
Her handmaiden of course. Lacuna!! ;D
Title: Re: If Mab dies
Post by: forumghost on October 30, 2017, 08:20:06 PM
Quote from: wardenferry419 on October 30, 2017, 05:32:29 PM
If Mab dies and Molly moves up as the replacement; who replaces Molly as lady? Best guess anybody?

For maximum Harry Angst, Maggie.
Title: Re: If Mab dies
Post by: wardenferry419 on October 30, 2017, 10:01:15 PM
Too cruel...stick with Faith.
Title: Re: If Mab dies
Post by: Arjan on October 31, 2017, 09:02:16 AM
First and foremost the new lady must be a suitable vessel that is she must be able to carry the mantle, have enough spiritual room. That is why Maggie might work and Faith probably not and Karen certainly not. That is why Lea's training of Molly probably helped, she learned to handle more and more power which might have stretched her spiritual capacity, or at least confirmed to Mab that she was a suitable spare vessel.

Changelings are probably perfect as vessel because they are already prepared for more power if they choose their fey side. It would be a logical move for Mab to make more children now to get some spare vessels for the coming BAT but it might be to late for that.

Molly will get an entourage and Mab's dead will probably be suddenly and unexpected. So the nearest suitable vessel and who is the nearest suitable vessel?

Lacuna!
Unless it is Sunday dinner with the parents.


Title: Re: If Mab dies
Post by: Rasins on October 31, 2017, 07:02:21 PM
I'm pretty sure that when Mab dies, it will be during a transfer of power for defending the outer gates and there will be a whole different means of defending the gates.  So there may be no need for a new lady.