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The Dresden Files => DFRPG => Topic started by: vultur on September 01, 2010, 03:24:23 AM
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I've said on a couple threads that I think Denarians tend to be over-estimated, so here are how I'd stat some of them..
Obsidian Statue ... -12 (this post)
Magog ... -16 (http://www.jimbutcheronline.com/bb/index.php/topic,20854.msg917904.html#msg917904)
Rosanna ... -17 (http://www.jimbutcheronline.com/bb/index.php/topic,20854.msg913890.html#msg913890)
Cassius/Saluriel ... -19 (http://www.jimbutcheronline.com/bb/index.php/topic,20854.msg925513.html#msg925513)
Ursiel ... -20 (http://www.jimbutcheronline.com/bb/index.php/topic,20854.msg915150.html#msg915150)
Tessa ... -26 (http://www.jimbutcheronline.com/bb/index.php/topic,20854.msg913912.html#msg913912)
Thorned Namshiel ... -27 (http://www.jimbutcheronline.com/bb/index.php/topic,20854.msg915128.html#msg915128)
"Obsidian Statue"
High Concept: Denarian Thug
Other Aspects: Big Bruiser
Skills (combat form)
Superb (+5): Might
Great (+4): Athletics, Fists, Conviction
Good (+3): Alertness, Endurance, Weapons
Fair (+2): Discipline, Intimidation, Lore
Other skills default to Average (physical) or Mediocre (otherwise).
Skills (human form)
Great (+4): Discipline, Presence, Conviction
Good (+3): Deceit, Endurance, Athletics, Stealth
Fair (+2): Contacts, Intimidation, Lore, Weapons
Other skills default to Average (physical) or Mediocre (otherwise).
Stunts: No Pain, No Gain (Endurance): +1 physical mild consequence
Powers
Beast Change [-1]
Demonic Co-pilot [-1]
Supernatural Recovery [-4]
The Catch: holy stuff [+2]
Human Form [+1] affecting:
Claws [-1]
Inhuman Toughness [-2]
The Catch: holy stuff
Inhuman Speed [-2]
Supernatural Strength [-4]
Stress
Mental OOOO
Physical OOO(OO), Armor:1, +1 mild consequence
Social OOO (human form: OOOO)
Total Refresh Cost: -12
Notes: One of the weakest of the Denarians in terms of total refresh spent, but still frighteningly strong. His Claws represent stony fists in combat form, not literal claws; with these massive fists and his great strength, he has Weapon: 6.
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Rosanna
High Concept: Denarian Sorceress
Other Aspects: Facade of Innocence, Fire Away!
Skills (combat form)
Superb (+5): Conviction, Discipline
Great (+4): Alertness, Endurance, Fists
Good (+3): Deceit, Lore, Athletics
Fair (+2): Contacts, Resources, Stealth
Other skills default to Average (physical) or Mediocre (otherwise).
Skills (human form)
Great (+4): Deceit, Presence, Discipline
Good (+3): Athletics, Alertness, Contacts, Lore, Conviction
Fair (+2): Endurance, Guns, Investigation, Resources, Stealth
Other skills default to Average (physical) or Mediocre (otherwise).
Powers:
Beast Change [-1]
Demonic Co-pilot [-1]
Supernatural Recovery [-4]
The Catch: holy stuff [+2]
Evocation [-3]
The Sight [-1]
Refinement [-1]
Sponsored Magic (Hellfire) [-2]
Lawbreaker (First) [-1]
Human Form [+1] affecting:
Inhuman Toughness [-2]
The Catch: holy stuff
Wings [-1]
Specializations
Evocation - Elements Air, Fire, Spirit; Control: Fire +1, Spirit +1; Power: Fire +1.
Thaumaturgy - Control: Entropomancy +1
Focus Items
Soul Ring (+1 Defensive Power with Spirit)
Stress
Mental OOO (OOOO +1 mild consequence in combat form)
Physical OOOO(OO), Armor:1
Social OOOO (+1 mild consequence in combat form)
Total Refresh Cost: -14
Notes: A Denarian of moderate power. Her Hellfire-backed fire magic is her primary offense, and (in combat-form) she has the mental stress track to back it up.
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Tessa (Polonius Lartessa)
High Concept: Denarian Mantis-Freak
Other Aspects: Wife and Rival of Nicodemus Archleone; Two Millennia of Experience
Skills (combat form)
Fantastic (+6): Discipline
Superb (+5): Conviction, Lore
Great (+4): Athletics, Endurance, Fists
Good (+3): Alertness, Might, Weapons
Fair (+2): Contacts, Resources, Scholarship, Stealth
Other skills default to Average.
Skills (human form)
Fantastic (+6): Resources
Superb (+5): Rapport, Discipline
Great (+4): Conviction, Lore, Contacts
Good (+3) Deceit, Presence, Athletics
Fair (+2): Alertness, Endurance, Weapons
Other skills default to Average.
Powers:
Beast Change [-1]
Demonic Co-pilot [-1]
Supernatural Recovery [-4]
The Catch: holy items [+2]
Evocation [-3]
Thaumaturgy [-3]
The Sight [-1]
Refinement [-6]
Lawbreaker (First) [-2]
Lawbreaker (Second) [-1]
Sponsored Magic (Hellfire) [-2]
Human Form [+1] affecting:
Claws [-1]
Inhuman Speed [-2]
Inhuman Toughness [-2]
The Catch: holy items
Specializations
Evocation - Elements: Air, Earth, Fire, Spirit; Control: Air +1, Fire +2, Spirit +1; Power: Air +1, Fire +2.
Thaumaturgy - Control: Biomancy +2, Crafting +1, Summoning/Binding +1; Complexity: Biomancy +1
Focus Items
Lightning Ring (+1 Offensive Power with Air and Fire)
Chitin Ring (+1 Complexity with Biomancy)
Stress
Mental OOOO (+1 mild consequence in combat form)
Physical OOOO(OO), Armor:1
Social OOOO +1 mild consequence
Total Refresh Cost: -26
Notes: One of the stronger Denarians in spellcasting, Tessa can throw 8-shift fire evocations (10-shift with her First Lawbreaker bonus); her Law-breaking biomancy is also quite frightening.
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I think you have to have a power that gives you a different skill set in your alternate form. This is one of the things that beast form does, you don't just get two skill blocks for free.
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Thought it was beast change for the 2 skill sets.
Pretty sure the most powerfull spellcaster goes to Thorned something or other, as he was the one teaching Tess. You know the guy that got pissed that Harry would DARE to use soulfire against HIM. ;D
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Thought it was beast change for the 2 skill sets.
Yeah, I'm pretty sure you're correct.
Pretty sure the most powerfull spellcaster goes to Thorned something or other, as he was the one teaching Tess. You know the guy that got pissed that Harry would DARE to use soulfire against HIM. ;D
Thorned Namshiel, I believe. :)
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Beast Change gives them the double skill pyramids, yes.
You're right, Namshiel should be a more powerful spellcaster...
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Thorned Namshiel
High Concept: Denarian Archmage
Other Aspects: Ancient Arrogance
Skills (combat form)
Fantastic (+6): Conviction
Superb (+5): Discipline, Lore
Great (+4): Endurance, Fists, Might
Good (+3): Alertness, Athletics, Weapons
Fair (+2): Contacts, Resources, Scholarship, Stealth
Other skills default to Average.
Skills (human form)
Fantastic (+6): Contacts
Superb (+5): Lore, Discipline
Great (+4): Conviction, Resources, Rapport
Good (+3) Endurance, Presence, Deceit
Fair (+2): Alertness, Investigation, Weapons
Other skills default to Average.
Powers:
Beast Change [-1]
Supernatural Recovery [-4]
The Catch: holy stuff [+2]
Demonic Co-pilot [-1]
Evocation [-3]
Thaumaturgy [-3]
The Sight [-1]
Refinement [-8]
Lawbreaker (First) [-2]
Sponsored Magic (Hellfire) [-2]
Human Form [+1] affecting:
Claws [-1]
Inhuman Toughness [-2]
The Catch: holy items [+1]
Spell Eater [-2]: see Namshiel's entry in Our World
Specializations
Evocation - Elements: Fire, Spirit, Water; Control: Fire +2, Spirit +3, Water +1; Power: Fire +2, Spirit +3, Water +1.
Thaumaturgy - Control: Entropomancy +1, Summoning/Binding +2; Complexity: Entropomancy +1, Summoning/Binding +2
Focus Items
Hellfire Ring (+1 Offensive Control with Fire and Spirit)
Stress
Mental OOOO (+1 mild consequence in combat form)
Physical OOOO(OO), Armor:1
Social OOOO +1 mild consequence
Total Refresh Cost: -27
Notes: Probably the strongest Denarian in pure spellcasting might, Namshiel can throw 11-shift spirit evocations if he intends to kill with them.
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Ursiel
High Concept: Denarian Brute
Other Aspects:
Skills (combat form)
Fists, Might
Superb (+5): Fists, Might, Endurance
Great (+4): Athletics, Conviction, Intimidation
Good (+3): Alertness, Presence, Survival
Fair (+2): Discipline, Lore, Stealth
Other skills default to Average (physical) or Mediocre (otherwise).
Skills (human form)
Superb (+5): Presence, Conviction, Contacts
Great (+4): Discipline, Resources, Stealth
Good (+3): Athletics, Endurance, Fists
Fair (+2): Lore, Might, Weapons
Other skills default to Average (physical) or Mediocre (otherwise).
Powers
Beast Change [-1]
Demonic Co-pilot [-1]
Supernatural Recovery [-4]
The Catch: holy stuff [+2]
Human Form [+1] affecting:
Claws [-1]
Hulking Size [-2]
Inhuman Speed [-2]
Mythic Strength [-6]
Mythic Toughness [-6]
The Catch: holy stuff
Stress
Mental OOOO
Physical OOOOOO(OOOOOO), Armor:3, +1 mild consequence
Social OOO (human form: OOOO)
Total Refresh Cost: -20
Notes: A pure physical brute, and absolutely terrifying in that form of conflict, with Weapon: 8 claws and a massive physical stress track.
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Thorned Nhamshiel should not have a base human form at all; he is the Fallen, entirely taking over the mortal host. THAT is why he was so angry at Dresden wielding Soulfire against him.
Also, he should not have recovery. He should have toughness instead; he did not recover from Harry's attacks even a day later (anyone with recovery would have recovered in only scenes) but he did survive being hurled completely through several walls.
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Thorned Nhamshiel should not have a base human form at all; he is the Fallen, entirely taking over the mortal host. THAT is why he was so angry at Dresden wielding Soulfire against him.
He may use his combat-form 100% of the time, but I think the ability to change is fundamental to Denarian nature.
Also, he should not have recovery. He should have toughness instead; he did not recover from Harry's attacks even a day later (anyone with recovery would have recovered in only scenes) but he did survive being hurled completely through several walls.
IIRC it's said somewhere in SmF that all the Denarians have impressive healing abilities, so I made that part of the 'basic Denarian template'. Still, I think you're right here; it's been removed.
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Thorned Nhamshiel should not have a base human form at all; he is the Fallen, entirely taking over the mortal host. THAT is why he was so angry at Dresden wielding Soulfire against him.
Also, he should not have recovery. He should have toughness instead; he did not recover from Harry's attacks even a day later (anyone with recovery would have recovered in only scenes) but he did survive being hurled completely through several walls.
Even Mythic Recovery won't speed healing if the Catch was involved. Since Soulfire satisfies the Catch for Denarians, this might just cover it while still allowing the Denarian to have Recovery powers.
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I'd have had Ursiel's pinnacle combat skills at Superb instead of Fantastic, just one short of Shiro's Fantastic Weapons.
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Soulfire would satisfy the catch if used directly. Happy picked him up and smashed Nhamshiel against a few walls instead. This means he used Soulfire as a prolonged "might" spell to throw him around with that big hand instead of direct damage.
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That doesn't mean that Soulfire couldn't have been interpreted to disrupt the Recovery ability sufficiently to delay healing. Thematically, Soulfire was involved in the damage dealt. Disagree if you like, but this interpretation seems to allow for the delayed recovery seen in the novels and also makes sense with Thorned Namshiel's listed inhuman Recovery or any higher value of enhanced Recovery.
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I'd have had Ursiel's pinnacle combat skills at Superb instead of Fantastic, just one short of Shiro's Fantastic Weapons.
Possible, but he seems to be a pretty crazy powerhouse ... still Weapon: 8 claws are probably enough.
EDIT: Ursiel's stats reshuffled to top out at Superb.
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Magog
High Concept: Denarian Gorilla-Beast
Other Aspects: Muscle, Not Mind
Skills (combat form)
Superb (+5): Fists
Great (+4): Conviction, Endurance, Might
Good (+3): Alertness, Athletics, Weapons
Fair (+2): Discipline, Intimidation, Lore
Other skills default to Average (physical) or Mediocre (otherwise).
Skills (human form)
Great (+4): Discipline, Presence, Conviction
Good (+3): Deceit, Endurance, Athletics, Stealth
Fair (+2): Contacts, Intimidation, Lore, Weapons
Other skills default to Average (physical) or Mediocre (otherwise).
Stunts
No Pain, No Gain (Endurance): +1 physical mild consequence
Powers
Beast Change [-1]
Demonic Co-pilot [-1]
Supernatural Recovery [-4]
The Catch: holy stuff [+2]
Human Form [+1] affecting:
Claws [-1]
Hulking Size [-2]
Supernatural Toughness [-4]
The Catch: holy stuff
Mythic Strength [-6]
Stress
Mental OOOO
Physical OOOOOO(OOOO), Armor:2, +1 mild consequence (human form: OOO, +1 mild consequence)
Social OOO (human form: OOOO)
Total Refresh Cost: -16
Notes: 'Just' a thug, but powerful nonetheless, with Weapon: 8 claws like Ursiel.
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I have a question about the human forms of some of these Denarians.
How did you decide on skills for the ones we've never seen in human form? Most of them look reasonably optimized, and it gives the more physical Denarians some versatility that I'm not sure they deserve.
PS: I totally agree with you about the Our World's overestimation of the Denarians. They're placed at plot device level, when everything we've seen in the books indicates that a Senior Council member could swat them like flies. (Except for Nick, of course).
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I have a question about the human forms of some of these Denarians.
How did you decide on skills for the ones we've never seen in human form? Most of them look reasonably optimized, and it gives the more physical Denarians some versatility that I'm not sure they deserve.
This is true. On the other hand, they ought to pick up *something* -- a lot of Contacts, Resources etc. -- from being tied into the 'Denarian network', and in many cases centuries old. And I haven't given the thug denarians all THAT much Rapport, Deceit etc.
PS: I totally agree with you about the Our World's overestimation of the Denarians. They're placed at plot device level, when everything we've seen in the books indicates that a Senior Council member could swat them like flies. (Except for Nick, of course).
Exactly.
There seems to be a HUGE variation among them; Obsidian Statue and that lizard dude go down in one shot from Kincaid, Tessa and Ursiel are pretty frightening.
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There seems to be a HUGE variation among them; Obsidian Statue and that lizard dude go down in one shot from Kincaid, Tessa and Ursiel are pretty frightening.
I think the ones that are "plot device" powerful are the ones where the human and angel are working together. In every unequal partnership case, they seem to be more like powerful mooks than super-tough. Ursiel would be the one exception to this and he caught Harry off guard in an alley, Harry was less powerful at the time, *and* he missed the presence of ALL THREE KNIGHTS in/around the same alley. (Those swords ought to register pretty powerfully to the old Lore sense to me.)
I think the 'lesser' Denarians work really well against 8-10 refresh characters. Direct confrontation can be done, but it will be painful, uncertain, and DANGEROUS. It's much more interesting to have them working to defeat the creature's purpose than to just take it in a straight-up punching match anyway. :)
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I still disagree. -15 refresh is NOT Plot-Device powerful. It is about the refresh of a Black Court Vampire and only slightly over that of a red court vampire. Denarians are supposed to be stronger than that.
Besides, being taken out by a single shot does not make you weak. I can make you a submerged PC that can totally killinate 90% of the creatures in OW in a single attack.
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That actually makes sense, vultur. Just because they don't show an ability during their brief "screentime" doesn't mean they don't have it.
Besides, I suppose that I would forget how to fight normally if I spent a few hundred years turning into a giant demon gorilla every time I wanted to punch someone. It actually makes sense for Denarians to have weak combat skills in human form.
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Quintus Cassius/Saluriel
High Concept: Sycophantic Denarian
Other Aspects: Master of Serpents; I Must Survive; A Thousand Faces; Your Own Game Against You; Follower of Nicodemus
Skills: - human form
Superb (+5): Discipline
Great (+4): Lore
Good (+3): Contacts, Conviction, Deceit
Fair (+2): Alertness, Guns, Presence, Resources, Stealth
Other skills default to Average
Skills: - snakeman form
Superb (+5): Athletics, Discipline
Great (+4): Conviction, Lore
Good (+3): Endurance, Fists
Fair (+2): Alertness, Might
Other skills default to Average
Powers:
Beast Change [-1]
Supernatural Recovery [-4]
The Catch [+2]: holy stuff
Evocation [–3]
Thaumaturgy [–3]
The Sight [–1]
Soulgaze [–0]
Refinement [–4]
Human Form [+1] affecting:
Inhuman Toughness [-2]
The Catch: holy stuff
Inhuman Speed [-2]
Inhuman Strength [-2]
Specializations
Evocation: Elements (Fire, Spirit, Water); Power (Spirit +2, Water +2); Control (Spirit +1, Water +1)
Thaumaturgy: Complexity (Summoning +1, Necromancy +2); Control (Necromancy +1)
Focus Item: Snake Ring (+1 Offensive Power and Control with Spirit)
Stress:
Mental OOOO
Physical (human form) OOO
Physical (snakeman form) OOOO(OO), Armor:1
Social OOO
Total Refresh Cost: -19
Notes: His snake evocations are likely to be blocks restricting movement or attack, or even grapples. In combat form, he can use 7-shift spirit evocations (with his focus item) and 6-shift water evocations.