In SK she has several sets of teeth, but the metal one "was made out of some kind of silvery metal, shining like a sword", so it wasnt specified as Iron. The shears are described as "rusty shears", though since it's not "rust-colored" it remains possible that the oxidation was non-specific; silver can be rusty but it's black, or green for copper-based alloys. Many of my old "rusty" tools appear to have black rust, rather than the stereotype red-rust of iron.
Aren't Mother Winter's false teeth described as made of iron? Also the shears that she used to cut the unraveling were described as "rusty," iron as far as I know is the only iron does that..
In SK she has several sets of teeth, but the metal one "was made out of some kind of silvery metal, shining like a sword", so it wasnt specified as Iron. The shears are described as "rusty shears", though since it's not "rust-colored" it remains possible that the oxidation was non-specific; silver can be rusty but it's black, or green for copper-based alloys. Many of my old "rusty" tools appear to have black rust, rather than the stereotype red-rust of iron.Not necessarily relevant to the story, but the post....
But a WOJ makes a strong implication that those shears are the mythic shears of Atropos, used to Cut the strings of Fate and end lives; I tend to question whether such a cosmically significant artifact would be made of common materials.
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I dunno, Mab was willing to break her cover to avoid even /touching/ a simple nail.
I like to think that Mother Winter is just so badass/powerful that despite being just as vulnerable to Iron as any other Faerie, she keeps some in her mouth as a statement. "I use my own personal Kryptonite as Dentures, you want some of this?":D
I like to think that Mother Winter is just so badass/powerful that despite being just as vulnerable to Iron as any other Faerie, she keeps some in her mouth as a statement. "I use my own personal Kryptonite as Dentures, you want some of this?"
This.
A bit like Hades' crown of Mordite.
Can you imagine the physical incarnation of decay and destruction being vulnerable to a random metal?
MW is far more than just a faerie queen.
It's also possible she was using a ceramic gun. And as far as Winter's teeth I thought in Cold Days they were specifically described as iron.Hmm, yup, looks like you are correct: "The next burst of sparks gleamed off of an iron surface—teeth."
I like to think that Mother Winter is just so badass/powerful that despite being just as vulnerable to Iron as any other Faerie, she keeps some in her mouth as a statement. "I use my own personal Kryptonite as Dentures, you want some of this?"Nice ;D
I like to think that Mother Winter is just so badass/powerful that despite being just as vulnerable to Iron as any other Faerie, she keeps some in her mouth as a statement. "I use my own personal Kryptonite as Dentures, you want some of this?"^^^
It's also possible she was using a ceramic gun. And as far as Winter's teeth I thought in Cold Days they were specifically described as iron.
Is Kringle Fae?
His mantle, yes, is part of the Winter Court. Which does not necessarily mean that he himself is Fae as much as the fact that his mantle is. While he’s there, he’s got to pay deference to Mab. If Mab gives him a command, he has to obey it.
Quantus has already mentioned it, but IMO the teeth represent different roles she caries, and my theory is that the Iron Teeth roll isn't a farie one.
There is precedent for this kind of thing in WoJ on Vadderung, which Quantus also mentioned.
I believe it's also possible that Mother Winter flat out isn't vulnerable to iron, but at a minimum, she has certain rolls or mantles she inhabits that aren't.
Perhaps it's a good idea to go back and look at exactly what was happening when she was seen with the Iron teeth. Perhaps it will point out some clues as to why at that particular time she wasn't in her Mother Winter Fae Mantle.
The place was all one room. The floor was wooden, though the boards looked weathered and dry. Shelves stood against the stone walls. A loom rested in the far corner, near the fireplace, a spinning wheel beside it. Before the fireplace sat a rocking chair, occupied, squeaking as it moved. A figure sat in it, shrouded in a shawl, a hood, as though someone had animated a bundle of blankets and cloth. On the hearth above the fireplace sat several sets of teeth, more or less human-sized. One looked simple enough, all white and even. The next was rotted-looking, with chipped incisors and a broken molar. The next set had all pointed teeth, stained with bits of rusty brown and what looked like rotten bits of flesh stuck between them. The last was made out of some kind of silvery metal, shining like a sword.
Fire and water hissed and spit, and wind moaned over the top of my grave. I braced my hands on either side of it, closed my eyes, and spoke the invocation I’d chosen, infusing my voice with my will. “Ancient crone, harbinger!” I began, then raised my voice, louder. “Longest shadow! Darkest dream! She of the endless hunger, the iron teeth, the merciless jaws!” I poured more of my wind and my will into the words, and the inside of my grave rang with the sheer volume. “I am Harry Dresden, the Winter Knight, and I needs must speak with thee! Athropos! Skuld! Mother Winter, I summon thee!”
There was a sound in the pitch-darkness. Steel being drawn across stone. A few sparks went up, blinding in the darkness. They burned into my retinas the outline of a massive, hunched form grasping a cleaver.
Sparks danced every few seconds as Mother Winter slowly sharpened her implement. I was able to get my breathing under control and to fight past the pain. “Mmm . . .” I said. “M-Mother Winter. Such a pleasure to meet with you again.”
The next burst of sparks gleamed off of an iron surface—teeth.
“I n-need to speak to you.”
“Speak, then, manling,” said Mother Winter. “You have a little time left.”
Then as pointed out by Griff, I think she came in her Baba Yaga Mantle.There is a WOJ that refers to her as Baba Yaga as well, fwiw:
Wiki:
Scholars have identified a variety of beings in folklore and mythology who share similarities of varying extent with Baba Yaga. These similarities may be due to either direct relation or cultural contact between the Eastern Slavs and other surrounding peoples. In Eastern Europe, these figures include the Bulgarian gorska majka ('Forest Mother'); the Serbian Baba Korizma, Gvozdenzuba ('Iron Tooth'), Baba Roga (also used to scare children in Croatia and Bosnia), šumska majka ('Forest Mother'), and the babice; and the Slovenian Baba Pehtra (Perchta). In Romanian folklore, similarities have been identified in several figures, including Muma padurii ('Forest Mother'). In neighboring Germanic Europe, similarities have been observed between the Alpine Perchta and Holda or Holle in the folklore of Central and Northern Germany, and the Swiss Chlungeri.[12]
More on Fae mantle changes
if the Ladies become the Queen, what happens to the Mothers at that point? The thing is that the Mothers are kind of the foundation. So, it’s not so much what happens to them because the little mantles changed. It’s what happens to the little mantles if the big mantles change. So, if someone whacks the being that is, for all intents and purposes, Baba Yaga, and then Mab succeeds, then Mab becomes the new Baba Yaga, and Molly gets drawn up to Mab, and they have to find someone else to become the new Lady. But on the other hand, the Mothers are extremely powerful beings (continued in the cosmology/mantle sub-section)
There is a WOJ that refers to her as Baba Yaga as well, fwiw:QuoteMore on Fae mantle changes
if the Ladies become the Queen, what happens to the Mothers at that point? The thing is that the Mothers are kind of the foundation. So, it’s not so much what happens to them because the little mantles changed. It’s what happens to the little mantles if the big mantles change. So, if someone whacks the being that is, for all intents and purposes, Baba Yaga, and then Mab succeeds, then Mab becomes the new Baba Yaga, and Molly gets drawn up to Mab, and they have to find someone else to become the new Lady. But on the other hand, the Mothers are extremely powerful beings (continued in the cosmology/mantle sub-section)
While I never, ever want to see Molly as Winter Queen, that does strike me as an amusing scenario in one way:
Imagine a 1000 years from now, Molly with Mab's attitude and 'dignity', but somehow "I am Molly' just doesn't carry quite the same sound as 'I am Mab'.
I don't think the person of Mother Winter is vulnerable.She walked in with a basket of "cuttings" from her garden, but there was no mention of any particular tool.
That being said, wasn't one of the descriptions of Mother Summer having scissors and a basket of flowers or something?
I wonder if Mother Winter's Mantle that is immune to Iron was obtained before, or after she became Mother Winter.Hard to say, though if the Iron Teeth are indeed a Baba Yaga reference, wikipedia says the name is from the 16th century and the roots might into early medieval periods, which sound like it's a latter thing.
Hard to say, though if the Iron Teeth are indeed a Baba Yaga reference, wikipedia says the name is from the 16th century and the roots might into early medieval periods, which sound like it's a latter thing.
Well, her full name is Margaret Katherine Amanda Carpenter, so any of those might work as a more formal Name.
Or, as Mira indicated, she might choose a wholly new name as her public moniker. Per WOJ "Mab" is not her actual Name, or at least not her whole Name. Maybe she'll choose one, or eventually decide to adopt something fitting. The name "Maeve" appears in 1st century literature while the DF Maeve supposedly was born only a couple centuries ago, so maybe it's something that gets "picked"?
Despite all the talk about how the mantle will eventually overwrite the host entirely, we've seen several Ladies come and go without name changes, they seem to maintain much more of their Human identities and natures (part of the Lady role in the cosmic balance, methinks). At the other end you have the Mothers that do not appear to maintain much in the way of personal identity (though they might just not share with Harry).
I think a lot of that has to do with who she was before MW
I think a lot of that has to do with who she was before MWNah, that's my point: all the baba yaga myths originate from times long after she would have needed to become Mother Winter, rather than pre-dating it.
Nah, that's my point: all the baba yaga myths originate from times long after she would have needed to become Mother Winter, rather than pre-dating it.
Still doesn't mean that who she was before wouldn't make a difference.Of course not. It just means that the only Name we currently know that has Iron as a specific part of it's legend appears to have formed long after after that.
Of course not. It just means that the only Name we currently know that has Iron as a specific part of it's legend appears to have formed long after after that.
Ohhhh ... okay. Gotcha.Came after, or maybe Got Eaten By, if they started as different beings.
Babba Yagga came after Mother Winter?
The topic of Mother Winter's cleaver got me thinking about something that always bugged me. Mother Winter has iron teeth and they have a lot of knives made of iron in their cottage. Previously it was shown to be incredibly irresponsible to have any iron in Faerie at all, let alone having it be part of a fae's anatomy. Im curious if they're so absurdly powerful that the Bane doesn't have any effect on them, because that would lead to some very scary implications.Harry specifically calls her out as being immune to iron when Sharkface messes with his head in CD (and on that note, I'm not 100% sure that the lying rule applies to them either).
Harry specifically calls her out as being immune to iron when Sharkface messes with his head in CD (and on that note, I'm not 100% sure that the lying rule applies to them either).
The Lying rule applies, but it's a bit redundant as the Mothers are required by cosmic law to speak as vaguely as possible with multiple meanings, just look at Mother Summer's conversation with Harry on the Wall to the Gates.
Mother Summer somehow managed to inject her voice with profound skepticism. “I’m sure he’s overjoyed to owe loyalty to you,” she said.
The Lying rule applies, but it's a bit redundant as the Mothers are required by cosmic law to speak as vaguely as possible with multiple meanings, just look at Mother Summer's conversation with Harry on the Wall to the Gates.
Mother Summer is talking about Maeve, Mab, and Harry's ability to make their own decisions despite their mantle's influence at the same time. As well as giving hints as to the fact that Mab is more human in caring for her daughter than she let's on.
I would suggest that the mothers are NOT limited to not being able to lie.Help me out with the multiple negatives: You're saying they have limits but Lying is not one of them?
Then again, why would they lie? I'd bet they don't get many visitors in the first place, and really don't have much opportunity. But there really isn't any reason to lie at that point.Well, arguments could be made (and historically have, I think) that Humans have no actual Need to Lie.
Help me out with the multiple negatives: You're saying they have limits but Lying is not one of them?
Well, arguments could be made (and historically have, I think) that Humans have no actual Need to Lie.
Given that they have limits on what they can and cannot say even if it is 100% True, Im not sure yet how much those two sphere's of the Venn Diagram overlap.
ExactlyI do think the two restrictions spring from a common source, a mandate to respect Mortal Free Will, without having to actually protect Mortals in any specific way.
I do think the two restrictions spring from a common source, a mandate to respect Mortal Free Will, without having to actually protect Mortals in any specific way.
And not lying to them?I see the Not Lying to them as the best "Letter of the Law" way to enforce a "Do Not infringe on their Free Will" Mandate, especially when combined with their innate Bargain/Obligation natures. As long as they dont force themselves on a mortal (as opposed to bargaining with them) and they dont objectively Lie, then anything that follows could be laid at the feet of the Mortal in question, no?
I see the Not Lying to them as the best "Letter of the Law" way to enforce a "Do Not infringe on their Free Will" Mandate, especially when combined with their innate Bargain/Obligation natures. As long as they dont force themselves on a mortal (as opposed to bargaining with them) and they dont objectively Lie, then anything that follows could be laid at the feet of the Mortal in question, no?
Absolutely. But that wouldn't be enough to require them to not lie. You can lie and not abrogate one's free will, and you can tell only the absolute truth absolutely abrogate free will.Per Uriel in GS, Im not entirely sure that is the case, at least not for Supernatural beings that are part of the Cosmic Defense Force (IE those with Cosmic Roles which I believe also come with Cosmic Rules). Per that it sure sounds like Lying will always constitute an attack on Free Will, and I cant think of a counter-example. Without Lying and also without being able to mess with a person that has not previously Agreed to something, I dont see any remaining avenues for abrogating a person's Free Will.
But I get what you are saying.
Per Uriel in GS, Im not entirely sure that is the case, at least not for Supernatural beings that are part of the Cosmic Defense Force (IE those with Cosmic Roles which I believe also come with Cosmic Rules). Per that it sure sounds like Lying will always constitute an attack on Free Will, and I cant think of a counter-example. Without Lying and also without being able to mess with a person that has not previously Agreed to something, I dont see any remaining avenues for abrogating a person's Free Will.
The only ones we've actively seen the Chicagatory police involved with were breeches that the fallen made. Specifically Harry's having been whispered the 7 words.Well, in the case of the Chicagotory Police Force that's Not true, Id say. We know of exactly two cases they have been involved it, one was Harry and I suspect by Uriel's personal involvement was a special case. The Other is the Raksasa, which as far as I know has no relation to Fallen. One data point for and one against does not establish any particular pattern, just possibilities.
I'm not disagreeing with you, I'm just not seeing the connection.
Well, in the case of the Chicagotory Police Force that's Not true, Id say. We know of exactly two cases they have been involved it, one was Harry and I suspect by Uriel's personal involvement was a special case. The Other is the Raksasa, which as far as I know has no relation to Fallen. One data point for and one against does not establish any particular pattern, just possibilities.
But, How is any of that related to to topic of Lying vs Free Will? ???
Regarding the Raksasa - we don't know if the fallen were involved. We do know that fallen were in the middle east (Not far from the Raksasa's stomping grounds) in Small Favor (I think it was SmF). So, there could have been some rileing up there.That was Skin Game, much later. The Rakshasa has been mentioned twice; once as a thing the Council Handled (cristos distinguished himself then) and once as an offhand mention of a normal case that Capt Jack's office was handling. Still doesnt line up chronologically, though some have specualted that time on that side of things might be wonky.
As to how they are connected.... isn't Capt Jack and crew part of the Cosmic Defense Force?OOOOH, I see where I lost you. No, what I meant by the Cosmic Defence Force is all those super-powerful beings that seem to have been given specific roles in the defense of the Local Universe. In my mind this includes Mab/Winter as the Gate Guardians, Vadderung as the Plan B Preparation force for the inevitable day that said defenses fail, and Hades as the Keeper of the Armory.
Quantus has already mentioned it, but IMO the teeth represent different roles she caries, and my theory is that the Iron Teeth roll isn't a farie one.Which means at some point she collected up every horsemen's role... and the Loom of Lachesis.. Which I always thought ya know, Jim was rushed in the end of SK meant he included it there but decided it wasn't right to be there thematically for a different reason. Then literally between reading and writing this I had another horrifying thought. What if between SK and the next time Harry goes to the cottage it's actually been handed out to a new person who fits the bill? We directly saw one instance of MW handing out something because it was what was required.
There is precedent for this kind of thing in WoJ on Vadderung, which Quantus also mentioned.
I believe it's also possible that Mother Winter flat out isn't vulnerable to iron, but at a minimum, she has certain rolls or mantles she inhabits that aren't.
Which means at some point she collected up every horsemen's role... and the Loom of Lachesis.. Which I always thought ya know, Jim was rushed in the end of SK meant he included it there but decided it wasn't right to be there thematically for a different reason. Then literally between reading and writing this I had another horrifying thought.Huh? I see the loom connection, with her being one of the fates that operates it, but the Horsemen? And what are you saying was rushed in (or out of) SK?
Huh? I see the loom connection, with her being one of the fates that operates it, but the Horsemen? And what are you saying was rushed in (or out of) SK?She has the teeth of all 4 horsemen in SK on her mantle, one perfect set for famine, one rotted set for.... well, let me go check. I can't remember all of them offhand.
She has the teeth of all 4 horsemen in SK on her mantle, one perfect set for famine, one rotted set for.... well, let me go check. I can't remember all of them offhand.I dont recall hearing that theory before, but you know I think I really like it! Id been associated the metal teeth with her identity as Baba Yaga, who is also known as Old Iron Teeth, but I never had an explanation for the others
When he finished SK his story about that time is he was severely rushed getting the last bits in.(i'd have no idea where that is, it's more of a story so I don't think it ever made it as a woj, didn't seem directly important) I always assumed he had Lachesis Loom in the corner but later decided it was a hasty decision he later decided to leave out of future cottage visits.Ah, I get it you are talking about the Loom and Spinning wheel mentioned in the corner of the Cottage in SK. We've only had the two visits to the Cottage and the majority of the miscellany of the place was not described in the second visit. But given that the second visit /did/ serve to confirm that the Mothers are in fact also the Morai (or part of them) which directly ties them to said Loom and Spinning wheel, I wouldnt go so far as to call it regret on Jims part or a reversal. Just lean scene description?
I dont recall hearing that theory before, but you know I think I really like it! Id been associated the metal teeth with her identity as Baba Yaga, who is also known as Old Iron Teeth, but I never had an explanation for the othersI think.. The clean ones are famine, cause they've never been used, The decayed ones pestilence/disease, the Fleshy ones are actually death which i'll get back to, and the last is of course war.
One looked simple enough, all white and even. Death?
The next was rotted-looking, with chipped incisors and a broken molar. Famine?
The next set had all pointed teeth, stained with bits of rusty brown and what looked like rotten bits of flesh stuck between them. Pestilence?
The last was made out of some kind of silvery metal, shining like a sword. War?
Ah, I get it you are talking about the Loom and Spinning wheel mentioned in the corner of the Cottage in SK. We've only had the two visits to the Cottage and the majority of the miscellany of the place was not described in the second visit. But given that the second visit /did/ serve to confirm that the Mothers are in fact also the Morai (or part of them) which directly ties them to said Loom and Spinning wheel, I wouldnt go so far as to call it regret on Jims part or a reversal. Just lean scene description?...Make that 4 lol. Well see I think the things shown in the cottage are things intentionally taken out of play.(five dammit!) Out of the balance as they have no place in it. The loom belongs to the middle one, which is 'missing', but whose aspects can readily be found in the balance of the fairy courts themselves. I think the objects represent mantles of authority sans the identity attached. All those roles represent things that make choices for mortals, by killing them and dictating the end, or simply weaving their lives as you see fit. So we have The Clotho the spinner of life and Atropos, the cutter with those Shears(Mentioned in a woj about why all obey the mothers) which Harry names MW directly. But Lachesis, the chooser, the 'dispenser' of fate isn't around, and that's the Loom she would weave from.
Huh? I see the loom connection, with her being one of the fates that operates it, but the Horsemen? And what are you saying was rushed in (or out of) SK?
Oh, I think I've solved the four sets of teeth problem:Quote from: Summer KnightThe place was all one room. The floor was wooden, though the boards looked weathe Red and dry. Shelves stood against the stone walls. A loom rested in the far corner, near the fireplace, a spinning wheel beside it. Before the fireplace sat a rocking chair, occupied, squeaking as it moved. A figure sat in it, shrouded in a shawl, a hood, as though someone had animated a bundle of blankets and cloth. On the hearth above the fireplace sat several sets of teeth, more or less human-sized. One looked simple enough, all white and even. The next was rotted-looking, with chipped incisors and a broken molar. The next set had all pointed teeth, stained with bits of rusty brown and what looked like rotten bits of flesh stuck between them. The last was made out of some kind of silvery metal, shining like a sword.Quote from: Revelation 6:7-8˄ NIVWhen the Lamb opened the fourth seal, I heard the voice of the fourth living creature say, "Come and see!" I looked and there before me was a pale horse! Its rider was named Death, and Hades was following close behind him. They were given power over a fourth of the earth to kill by sword, famine, and plague, and by the wild beasts of the earth.
- iron teeth = sword
- rotted-looking = plague
- pointed teeth = wild beast
- simple enough, all white and even = famine
EDIT: those four are NOT the four riders, but the four ways Death can kill during the apocalypse according to the Bible.
Here's Elegast's theory on that, which is slightly more nuanced than "the four Horsemen":Course mine is far more 'nuanced'... With more overlap from, well, pretty much everything. Walkers 'riding' hosts to be horsemen.(connect again to he angelic possibilities in outsiders with EG calling Magog's host his 'beast of burden'. What do you do with such things? Ride them. Death who follows after in the actual verse is highly comparable to he who walks behind with the other three those who 'walk before'. Which, as soon as we meet the next walker should put 'inside' or 'beside' to rest and allow this theory some actual credence.
- iron teeth = sword
- rotted-looking = plague
- pointed teeth = wild beast
- simple enough, all white and even = famine
EDIT: those four are NOT the four riders, but the four ways Death can kill during the apocalypse according to the Bible.