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McAnally's (The Community Pub) => Author Craft => Topic started by: Aminar on August 22, 2012, 01:40:39 AM
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I'm writing a short story for Writers of the future. It's Urban Fantasy about a social worker looking for a few kids who have gone missing. There's magic involved. Can I use the line "What would Harry Dresden do?" Because I really really want to.
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Ouch. Copyright and intellectual property issues. No easy answer here.
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See, i'm a little worried about that, but it's more a pop culture reference. I mean, harry calls the X-men by name. Jedi and Sith are copywritten. Anybody know the exact definition of what's allowed and when it becomes theft?
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I'm reading a book right now called Libriomancer by Jim Hines. Fantastic read. It's about a guy who can reach into books and pull out objects into reality. In the book he mentions several books that actually exist, talks about vampires who sparkle that have come out of Stephanie Meyers book, and even mentions Charlaine Harris. Now the grey area is whether he's gone out to all these authors and gotten permission before using them in his book.
However early on in the book he pulls out a gun which is very similar to a phaser and talks about a book which is oddly similar to Star Trek, but purposely calls it something else, which I'm guessing he does to avoid copyright issues. But Star Trek isn't just a literary phenomenon, it's movies, books, toys, etc.
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Pat Rothfuss recommended that one. Ill be checking it out soonish. For now I think Ill just go with it. I mean, its not like Im trying to profit off Jim's work. However was the phaser from The Starship Intrepid? Because that's a reference to Scalzi's Red Shirts. A move I can see being made.
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From what I've read on the subject, simply referencing another work is considered "fair use" and does not require permission. If you quote from someone else's work--other than in a review--that does require permission.
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No the book was called, "The Vulcan's Mirror," and the vague description of the story was inspired by the original trek series episode, Mirror, Mirror. You won't be disappointed when you read this one. I too picked it up from Rothfuss's recommendation.
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I'd certainly not want to tick off JB; he might send round one of his villains. No, wait. It would be Fred--that's scary. WAIT, Presellie would be far worse and far more likely! Mab on steroids.
Seriously though, I'd send her a note and ask her. Jim might not mind a nod going into "Writers of the Future" at all. That's the one that the Sci Fi Writers put out right? Kinda a big thing. Congrats!
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I'd certainly not want to tick off JB; he might send round one of his villains. No, wait. It would be Fred--that's scary. WAIT, Presellie would be far worse and far more likely! Mab on steroids.
Seriously though, I'd send her a note and ask her. Jim might not mind a nod going into "Writers of the Future" at all. That's the one that the Sci Fi Writers put out right? Kinda a big thing. Congrats!
It's a contest not a sure thing regrettably. This is just an entry. Thanks though.
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Ahh, well then... To be honest, I think the people making the selection probably wouldn't approve. It seems a bit like a cheap, inside joke. It's one thing if you are famous and you know JB, but other than that? I'd leave it off. If they want it? Then you can figure out if you can go back to insert it.
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It's supposed to be a bit of characterization. The character is a social worker who's kids(clients) have gone missing. Along the way he discovers and starts learning the system of magic the kids discovered and which lead to their disappearance. It helps with the character's sense of humor and hobbies as well as explaining why he doesn't freak out more...
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Although the Dresden books are best sellers, I don't know if they've reached the point yet that Harry's name would be recognised by all readers. If they don't recognise him then the line isn't going to make much sense.
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Although the Dresden books are best sellers, I don't know if they've reached the point yet that Harry's name would be recognised by all readers. If they don't recognise him then the line isn't going to make much sense.
Very true. On the other hand, that isn't necessarily important. If somebody is reading a writer's of the future entry they'll at least know who he is.
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Very true. On the other hand, that isn't necessarily important.
It's important at the level that something that's obviously a reference you don't get can be irritating to many readers.
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That's a constant danger in Urban fantasy... Either you reference things and risk people not getting them or you don't reference things and your characters lose valuable characterization. References make characters so much more approachable and human seeming.
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I think the best way to balance the two is to reference things in a way that those that are familiar with the referenced story will get and that those that are not familiar with the referenced story will not notice. For example actually using the name Harry Dresden will require the reader to have some familiarity with TDF. On the other hand if a character said that they would need a detective that was also a wizard to solve the crime it would make sense in story. If they or another character googled it and said the only one they could find advertised was in Chicago which was too far away to do them any good, it would be a Dresden reference for those that were familiar with it but simply a line in the book about the main character unsuccessfully trying to find help to anyone else.
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I think the best way to balance the two is to reference things in a way that those that are familiar with the referenced story will get and that those that are not familiar with the referenced story will not notice.
This does also have a problem with references aging; you get unlucky in picking which current bestseller or movie you quote, and in ten years' time nobody knows what the heck you're talking about. I think you can pretty well trust Shakespeare and Milton not to age badly, but that's about it.
For example actually using the name Harry Dresden will require the reader to have some familiarity with TDF. On the other hand if a character said that they would need a detective that was also a wizard to solve the crime it would make sense in story. If they or another character googled it and said the only one they could find advertised was in Chicago which was too far away to do them any good, it would be a Dresden reference for those that were familiar with it but simply a line in the book about the main character unsuccessfully trying to find help to anyone else.
Very nice example. I'd also note that you can get mileage out of layered quoting; "better to reign in Hell than serve in Heaven" can get some impact from knowing its original context in "Paradise Lost", but with the right contextual cues you can make it also recognisable as specifically quoting VNV Nation using a quote from "Paradise Lost" in "Kingdom" to people who know VNV Nation.
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I think you can pretty well trust Shakespeare and Milton not to age badly, but that's about it.
Ben Franklin and portions of the KJV bible have weathered well also although many mix up which quotes come from which.
I'd also note that you can get mileage out of layered quoting; "better to reign in Hell than serve in Heaven" can get some impact from knowing its original context in "Paradise Lost", but with the right contextual cues you can make it also recognisable as specifically quoting VNV Nation using a quote from "Paradise Lost" in "Kingdom" to people who know VNV Nation.
If you can pull this off, it works very well.
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In general, pop culture references are considered fair use. You don't need permission for your character to drink a Coke, for example. If you want to include the reference, I would say go right ahead.
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Just finished Libriomancer. So much awesome but way way too short.
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Ben Franklin and portions of the KJV bible have weathered well also although many mix up which quotes come from which.
If you don't know where something comes from, it's usually either Dorothy Parker, Winston Churchill, or Oscar Wilde.
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This does also have a problem with references aging; you get unlucky in picking which current bestseller or movie you quote, and in ten years' time nobody knows what the heck you're talking about. I think you can pretty well trust Shakespeare and Milton not to age badly, but that's about it.
A related danger is "The author comes off as trying too hard for pop references- is this overcompensation by a clueless oldie?"
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A related danger is "The author comes off as trying too hard for pop references- is this overcompensation by a clueless oldie?"
Yeah, I've read a number of books that have failed in the direction of "the writer is layering in references to the pop culture of their youth and the world has moved on since then."
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One example of a work that managed to find a good balance of pop culture references is the show Farscape. It used a ton of pop culture references, yet all were sufficiently well-known as to be familiar to just about any Westerner who wasn't living in a cave for the last fifty years, and well-established enough that they don't seem obscure or outdated even though the show ended a decade ago.
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One example of a work that managed to find a good balance of pop culture references is the show Farscape. It used a ton of pop culture references, yet all were sufficiently well-known as to be familiar to just about any Westerner who wasn't living in a cave for the last fifty years, and well-established enough that they don't seem obscure or outdated even though the show ended a decade ago.
And it even has a Dresden tie-in.
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One example of a work that managed to find a good balance of pop culture references is the show Farscape. It used a ton of pop culture references, yet all were sufficiently well-known as to be familiar to just about any Westerner who wasn't living in a cave for the last fifty years, and well-established enough that they don't seem obscure or outdated even though the show ended a decade ago.
I think Farscape did a great job of having their cake and eating it too. John Crichton is a pop culture machine, throwing out references left and right, so American audiences immediately sympathize with him and laugh at his jokes. His companions are aliens from another galaxy, so all of his references are completely lost on them. Foreign audiences (or those just not as plugged in to pop culture) sympathize with his crew and their baffled reactions.
I read a book (part of the Laundry series by Charles Stross) where the main character says he was enjoying reading this book series about a wizard in modern-day Chicago. Doesn't call Harry out by name but it's pretty obvious what he's referring to. The same book has a cultist die via iPod commercial (which, interestingly, most of his British audience would not get). For something less mainstream like the Dresden Files, I'd go for an oblique reference. Maybe something like "I thought about waving my hands and shouting FUEGO but I didn't want to deal with the bill for property damage" or "I needed to think my way through this. Come up with something unexpected. Unfortunately, all I could think of was a polka-powered zombie t-rex. My brain must be on strike."
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For what it's worth, I think Cold Days has just about pushed the "fair use" thing to it's limits. ;D Harry even jokes about getting sued at one point.
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In my novel, I had a supernatural information broker say that he'd see if he could get anything from 'that bloke in Chicago'. Seemed innocuous enough to me, but what are your thoughts? I also think I referenced a mage selling enchanted items in Camden (Alex Verus).
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In my novel, I had a supernatural information broker say that he'd see if he could get anything from 'that bloke in Chicago'. Seemed innocuous enough to me, but what are your thoughts? I also think I referenced a mage selling enchanted items in Camden (Alex Verus).
Seems OK to me (aside from the quibble I have about information brokers who talk of their sources not staying in business for long).
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Well, most of his info comes from the Akashic Record, so it's not a huge problem. I've also got a Spanish Inquisition reference and a slightly-veiled reference to Interview with a Vampire as well as a direct reference to Dirty Harry, but i figure those are pretty standard.