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The Dresden Files => DF Spoilers => Topic started by: jimpruitt on October 23, 2020, 09:21:45 PM
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Going back and rereading tonight. But holy hell Jim took almost so much from Harry this time, friends, White Council and Murphy. Never mind the arranged marriage. Which we all know he will never follow through with this .
Overall great read but now I want MORE. What do y'all think.
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More or less the same than you :). Besides, Harry already had to deal with Susan and with the pain about Luccio, so really, what happened with Murphy is too much.
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Yeah, as I said in another thread, Murphy was more then just his lover. This is a huge loss for him. Even if they had never connected romantically, it would still be just as big of loss. Only the regret of not trying to connect in that way heaped on top of it.
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Yeah, as I said in another thread, Murphy was more then just his lover. This is a huge loss for him. Even if they had never connected romantically, it would still be just as big of loss. Only the regret of not trying to connect in that way heaped on top of it.
Yes, but losing Murphy is just the tip of the ice berg, being kicked out of the White Council is a huge loss for him. Yes, he has always had a problem with them ever since he appeared in front of them with a hood over his head at sixteen. But in spite of living under the Doom like he did, he identified with the White Council, that is who he was, a wizard of the White Council. His brother has been taken from him, and he isn't going to come back soon. How many straws will it take to break the camel's back?
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I hope in next book Harry finds a good few moments. Like the moment of Butters and Sayers sparring in Michael's backyard. He needs some time with the Alphas, perhaps a beer with Mac, and, as I always say, a few words with Ivy. Those things with meant a lot for Harry and they would be good for us as readers, I believe.
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I hope in next book Harry finds a good few moments. Like the moment of Butters and Sayers sparring in Michael's backyard. He needs some time with the Alphas, perhaps a beer with Mac, and, as I always say, a few words with Ivy. Those things with meant a lot for Harry and they would be good for us as readers, I believe.
I don't think the words will ever be said with Ivy, because she has made her decision. She learned a painful lesson from Harry and Kincaid, loving friends leaves you vulnerable to being hurt by them. With her power and knowledge, any more of that will lead to her insanity, like Luccio tried to explain to Harry way back in Small Favor.
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I think Jim is ultimately too softball with too simple moral views to leave it that way.
Sure he will torture his characters, give them hard time - but in the end friendship, family and moralistic therapeutic deism shall prevail.
So of course now Ivy has to be all angry, so they can reconnect later.
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I think Jim is ultimately too softball with too simple moral views to leave it that way.
Sure he will torture his characters, give them hard time - but in the end friendship, family and moralistic therapeutic deism shall prevail.
So of course now Ivy has to be all angry, so they can reconnect later.
Or not..
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Maybe. But after 17 books I tend to believe that under all this Warhammer Grimdark, he's big soft "Friendship is magic" brony ;)
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Well, Harry is :).
I hope you are right, WWW. I don't care if it is cheesy, I like it.
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Maybe. But after 17 books I tend to believe that under all this Warhammer Grimdark, he's big soft "Friendship is magic" brony ;)
Warrior pretty much spelled that out, no?
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We will see, I still say Harry should have used his ever present chalk to leave a snowflake cutie mark on Mab’s Unicorn, before returning it.
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Well, Harry is :).
I hope you are right, WWW. I don't care if it is cheesy, I like it.
I mean I doubt Butcher would develop Dresden / Archive friendship to just sort of dissolve it into - she's angry on him for killing himself stuff
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I mean I doubt Butcher would develop Dresden / Archive friendship to just sort of dissolve it into - she's angry on him for killing himself stuff
Which means that that confrontation is coming on screen since we've been promised more Ivy plot content.
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Which means that that confrontation is coming on screen since we've been promised more Ivy plot content.
I can see Harry going through a type of "Twelve Step" process sort of like A.A. Harry needs to make amends to those he has wronged. He didn't intend to hurt Ivy, he didn't think of her when he decided to take his own life and involve others in the process. So he has to apologia to her, it may be difficult if she is in full Archive mode, so it will be interesting. He also has to apologize to Kincaid for involving him.. Which will come as a huge shock to Kincaid, who as a mercenary/assassin supposedly wouldn't care as long as he got paid. However I believe Kincaid does care about Ivy. Repairing that relationship might pave the way to Kincaid giving Harry insight into his father, who is rumored to be Drakul. This could be critical in the BAT to come.
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I can see Harry going through a type of "Twelve Step" process sort of like A.A. Harry needs to make amends to those he has wronged. He didn't intend to hurt Ivy, he didn't think of her when he decided to take his own life and involve others in the process. So he has to apologia to her, it may be difficult if she is in full Archive mode, so it will be interesting. He also has to apologize to Kincaid for involving him.. Which will come as a huge shock to Kincaid, who as a mercenary/assassin supposedly wouldn't care as long as he got paid. However I believe Kincaid does care about Ivy. Repairing that relationship might pave the way to Kincaid giving Harry insight into his father, who is rumored to be Drakul. This could be critical in the BAT to come.
Kincaid is not stupid. Harry can try to offer his help with approaching Ivy. I think he will understand an apology depending how it is phrased. It can be dangerous though if it is seen as a debt.
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Kincaid will be pissed with Harry, he is the ultimate blot on Kincaid’s CV, one shot death, and he missed with Dresden.
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He only failed because Ivy ordered him to shot him in the chest. So, not Harry's fault. In fact, he is somehow in Harry's debt still. He contracted him to saved him of the WK by killing him and he didn´t. He may even want to finish the job though, but he knows Ivy would probably stop him if he tried.
Seriously, I need Harry making amends to Ivy and Kinkaid, and having them together.
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Kincaid will be pissed with Harry, he is the ultimate blot on Kincaid’s CV, one shot death, and he missed with Dresden.
What are you talking about, Kincaid killed him just fine, he came back as a ghost and everything. His employer never specified he had to stay dead. :D
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Nah. Mabs saved his biological life.
It's explained quite fine - Dresden was not a ghost in GS - he was disembodied soul.
At best we could call it ghost+ as he shared some qualities. But he kept being alive technically.
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He only failed because Ivy ordered him to shot him in the chest. So, not Harry's fault. In fact, he is somehow in Harry's debt still. He contracted him to saved him of the WK by killing him and he didn´t. He may even want to finish the job though, but he knows Ivy would probably stop him if he tried.
Seriously, I need Harry making amends to Ivy and Kinkaid, and having them together.
The question is which book we'll get Ivy having a breakdown over the internet and Kincaid returning in.
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Hopefully, 12M.
I agree about Harry not being dead.
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Nah. Mabs saved his biological life.
It's explained quite fine - Dresden was not a ghost in GS - he was disembodied soul.
At best we could call it ghost+ as he shared some qualities. But he kept being alive technically.
It is stated several times both in the books and in woj that he was dead.
In a dualistic world view you are dead when your soul, your anima, is separated from your body. Killing is literally to sunder body and soul from each other. What Mab had was an empty shell.
That is the magical worldview. In that worldview you can return from the dead because your soul, which is the real you according to Uriel, can just get a body again. Your own one in Harry’s case or another one in the corpstakers case if she had succeeded in Ghost Story.
Harry was clearly dead but dead is a spectrum as Mab said. Harry was not gone so he could get back.
But Harry crossed a border. A significant border as Lea explained in Ghost story when she explained what corpstaker was.
His body might have been living in the sense that a plant is alive but without Harry, without the soul Harry, Harry was dead. That is dead in the definition of the dualistic world view which has a total distinction between spiritual and material. It is a worldview Christianity got from the Greeks and it is the worldview in the books.
It is the worldview attacked in his book consciousness explained: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Consciousness_Explained
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I certainly disagree.
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I certainly disagree.
With Mab, Lea and Jim? In the context of the books?
In real life there is no separation between body and soul and what we see as soul is just an expression of the total person and in that context Harry could not have been dead because he is now alive but that is not the dresdenverse. In the dresdenverse people can rise from the dead.
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Your own one in Harry’s case or another one in the corpstakers case if she had succeeded in Ghost Story.
In her case, I'm not really sure she was SOUL anymore, she seemed more like Nightmare a bit - ghost per se but with power and drive of dead man.
That is dead in the definition of the dualistic world view which has a total distinction between spiritual and material. It is a worldview Christianity got from the Greeks and it is the worldview in the books.
Now TBH Christianity on dogmatic level rejects such dualism.
From Catholic perspective even if his concioussness was wandering around a bit - he was still alive overall.
If body is alive, soul by def. is not gone.
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In her case, I'm not really sure she was SOUL anymore, she seemed more like Nightmare a bit - ghost per se but with power and drive of dead man.
I do not think so. Uriel was far too pleased when she got the southbound train. I do not think only good people have souls because what point would there be in going south?
Corpstaker did not loose who she was. That horrible person was corpstaker.
Now TBH Christianity on dogmatic level rejects such dualism.
From Catholic perspective even if his concioussness was wandering around a bit - he was still alive overall.
If body is alive, soul by def. is not gone.
Details. The important part is the belief that the soul exists after the body is gone. There are good reasons to believe that the original jewish belief before christianity did not belief that and believed in the litteral ressurection of the dead to live here on earth.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L_eZf33UMs8
(the lecture starts after 14 minutes of introductions)
But inside the dresdenverse it is clear that both Harry and the corpstaker crossed a border:
“With significant capability,” Lea replied, stressing the phrase. “When Corpsetaker’s spirit still dwelt upon the mortal coil, even bodies with latent talent were hospitable enough for
her to exercise her full power. But thanks to you, and like you, my dear godson, she has passed beyond the threshold between life and death. Now she requires a body with a much greater inherent talent in order to use her gifts once she is inside it.”
I think that settles it.
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In her case, I'm not really sure she was SOUL anymore, she seemed more like Nightmare a bit - ghost per se but with power and drive of dead man.
Now TBH Christianity on dogmatic level rejects such dualism.
From Catholic perspective even if his concioussness was wandering around a bit - he was still alive overall.
If body is alive, soul by def. is not gone.
She had enough of a soul to get the southbound train to pay her a visit as she died.
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With Mab, Lea and Jim? In the context of the books?
In real life there is no separation between body and soul and what we see as soul is just an expression of the total person and in that context Harry could not have been dead because he is now alive but that is not the dresdenverse. In the dresdenverse people can rise from the dead.
It is stated several times, Bob in Ghost Story hints that Harry was only mostly dead.. Mab says death is a spectrum, Harry had not fallen so far he couldn't return. Harry has said since then he was only mostly dead, which means he wasn't all dead. His body was kept alive, the risk was something could have happened to his soul in it's walk about, then his body would have died because there was no soul or undamaged soul to return to it. It is plausible, his heart was badly damaged to be sure, he lost a lot of blood, but he fell into ice cold water, in the arms of the Queen of Winter, immediate cool down to put him in a state of suspended animation, then on to the island, full i.c.u. set up, Dresden style, nourishment, i.v. supplied by Alfred, circulation/heart/lung supplied by Bonea, and the rest supplied by Mab, keeping the body alive. More importantly, his brain alive, which is the key. When his soul returned, Harry woke up from his coma, he still was a while healing and rehabbing after that. Metaphorically you might say he returned from the dead, but in reality he never was.
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It is stated several times, Bob in Ghost Story hints that Harry was only mostly dead.. Mab says death is a spectrum, Harry had not fallen so far he couldn't return. Harry has said since then he was only mostly dead, which means he wasn't all dead. His body was kept alive, the risk was something could have happened to his soul in it's walk about, then his body would have died because there was no soul or undamaged soul to return to it. It is plausible, his heart was badly damaged to be sure, he lost a lot of blood, but he fell into ice cold water, in the arms of the Queen of Winter, immediate cool down to put him in a state of suspended animation, then on to the island, full i.c.u. set up, Dresden style, nourishment, i.v. supplied by Alfred, circulation/heart/lung supplied by Bonea, and the rest supplied by Mab, keeping the body alive. More importantly, his brain alive, which is the key. When his soul returned, Harry woke up from his coma, he still was a while healing and rehabbing after that. Metaphorically you might say he returned from the dead, but in reality he never was.
Unless Mab had given the body to another shade, do not waste it. She could have asked a good price for it and Bonea could get something out of it as well.
It would not be Harry but his body would be very much alive.
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I do not think so. Uriel was far too pleased when she got the southbound train. I do not think only good people have souls because what point would there be in going south?
Corpstaker did not loose who she was. That horrible person was corpstaker.
Maybe. But then even as pure spirit she would be a form of intelect. Black Court Vampires lack souls, and yet I think Uriel would be a happy of their destruction. I mean probably he should be more happy with destruction of soulless abominations, that with damnation of real soul even that of Corpsetaker.
Details. The important part is the belief that the soul exists after the body is gone. There are good reasons to believe that the original jewish belief before christianity did not belief that and believed in the litteral ressurection of the dead to live here on earth.
Old Testament descriptions are quite murky in this regard, and even non-Christian Jews were quite divided in those matters.
(Now of course literal ressurection is still strong Christian belief - soul can exist without embodiment, but it is form of body, it should be a body and even souls of saints till ressurection are in quite imperfect state.)
But my point is sort of in another direction - my perspective is, as long as Dresden's body was alive then it was not really soulless as soul is essence of human life. So it's more Dresden body being alive that's my reason for claiming he was alive, not whatever his concioussness was doing. Corpsetaker's body was truly gone, and this link was broken even if she managed to bind her soul to her ghost to keep active in Nevernever.
Dresden was still sort of anchored to own body, just allowed to run around in his own ghost form it seems.
It is stated several times, Bob in Ghost Story hints that Harry was only mostly dead.. Mab says death is a spectrum, Harry had not fallen so far he couldn't return. Harry has said since then he was only mostly dead, which means he wasn't all dead. His body was kept alive, the risk was something could have happened to his soul in it's walk about, then his body would have died because there was no soul or undamaged soul to return to it. It is plausible, his heart was badly damaged to be sure, he lost a lot of blood, but he fell into ice cold water, in the arms of the Queen of Winter, immediate cool down to put him in a state of suspended animation, then on to the island, full i.c.u. set up, Dresden style, nourishment, i.v. supplied by Alfred, circulation/heart/lung supplied by Bonea, and the rest supplied by Mab, keeping the body alive. More importantly, his brain alive, which is the key. When his soul returned, Harry woke up from his coma, he still was a while healing and rehabbing after that. Metaphorically you might say he returned from the dead, but in reality he never was.
Indeed.
Now Corpsetaker could be halfway there all along - I mean she found way to rip her soul out of her original body, and replace it with another (btw that can have interesting implications about Luccio in the future), she had to have some spiritual vessel for such trick - that allowed herself to keep stuck as real soul to her ghost rather than get southbound train from the get go.
Unless Mab had given the body to another shade, do not waste it. She could have asked a good price for it and Bonea could get something out of it as well.
It would not be Harry but his body would be very much alive.
I'm not sure it could work that easily. What Corspetaker did was rare and unheard abomination of higher order.
And if Mab used some shade, not a real soul, result can be second Drakul for all we know - basically soulless body ridden by spirit - not designed to serve as a soul. I mean replacing human soul with another soul is terrible thing already - but replacing it with something not-human - oh, boy.
Also as long as body would stay alive - Dresden's soul would have anchor to world, and could possibly fight with whatever shade stolen his body.
I mean it was not Dresden's basketball height Mab was so hot for.
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Maybe. But then even as pure spirit she would be a form of intelect. Black Court Vampires lack souls, and yet I think Uriel would be a happy of their destruction. I mean probably he should be more happy with destruction of soulless abominations, that with damnation of real soul even that of Corpsetaker.
Old Testament descriptions are quite murky in this regard, and even non-Christian Jews were quite divided in those matters.
(Now of course literal ressurection is still strong Christian belief - soul can exist without embodiment, but it is form of body, it should be a body and even souls of saints till ressurection are in quite imperfect state.)
But my point is sort of in another direction - my perspective is, as long as Dresden's body was alive then it was not really soulless as soul is essence of human life. So it's more Dresden body being alive that's my reason for claiming he was alive, not whatever his concioussness was doing. Corpsetaker's body was truly gone, and this link was broken even if she managed to bind her soul to her ghost to keep active in Nevernever.
His soul was somewhere else, that was mentioned several times all over the place by reliable sources. Bonea was keeping the body alive, it functioned as her body really.
You can discuss the status of an unborn child but I do not think this is the right forum :-)
Dresden was still sort of anchored to own body, just allowed to run around in his own ghost form it seems.
No reference to that in the books. I am sure that if Corpstaker had taken over Harry's body and Mab and Demonreach had done nothing Harry would have been dead. Butters needed a lot of help to get back to his body even when corpstaker was gone. No handy anchor.
Indeed.
Now Corpsetaker could be halfway there all along - I mean she found way to rip her soul out of her original body, and replace it with another (btw that can have interesting implications about Luccio in the future), she had to have some spiritual vessel for such trick - that allowed herself to keep stuck as real soul to her ghost rather than get southbound train from the get go.
Just like Harry she had her soul/spirit combination, her shade. That is what Lea meant. Corpstaker was just the same sort of being as Harry.
She just left her body with her complete non material self and occupied another one. No mystery about that.
I'm not sure it could work that easily. What Corspetaker did was rare and unheard abomination of higher order.
And if Mab used some shade, not a real soul,
A shade is not a ghost. It is a spirit + soul, your complete non material self. It can go to church and visit holy ground.
There is a clear distinction. A normal ghost does not have the soul part.
result can be second Drakul for all we know - basically soulless body ridden by spirit - not designed to serve as a soul. I mean replacing human soul with another soul is terrible thing already - but replacing it with something not-human - oh, boy.
I never said non human. Just a shade. A human shade.
Actually Lea taught Harry (and Molly) more or less how to do it when they both fought the servitors. I think Harry can do what corps taker did he just does not want to. You must be somewhat desperate too leave your own body and occupy another one but old age might drive someone to it.
But Harry is a necromancer too. These tricks are not in fashion anymore because the white council does not like them.
As Uriel said you are a soul, you have a body. Uriel does not think the body that important anyway.
The next step is not caring too much about whose body it really was. Corps taker routine might not be that well spread it is illustrative about the relation between body and soul in the dresdenverse.
Also as long as body would stay alive - Dresden's soul would have anchor to world, and could possibly fight with whatever shade stolen his body.
I mean it was not Dresden's basketball height Mab was so hot for.
Not that easy if Harry was dead, the new owner would not invite him. It is just a body. That anchor is nowhere discussed.
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It is stated several times, Bob in Ghost Story hints that Harry was only mostly dead.. Mab says death is a spectrum, Harry had not fallen so far he couldn't return. Harry has said since then he was only mostly dead, which means he wasn't all dead. His body was kept alive, the risk was something could have happened to his soul in it's walk about, then his body would have died because there was no soul or undamaged soul to return to it. It is plausible, his heart was badly damaged to be sure, he lost a lot of blood, but he fell into ice cold water, in the arms of the Queen of Winter, immediate cool down to put him in a state of suspended animation, then on to the island, full i.c.u. set up, Dresden style, nourishment, i.v. supplied by Alfred, circulation/heart/lung supplied by Bonea, and the rest supplied by Mab, keeping the body alive. More importantly, his brain alive, which is the key. When his soul returned, Harry woke up from his coma, he still was a while healing and rehabbing after that. Metaphorically you might say he returned from the dead, but in reality he never was.
I agree with you
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It is stated several times, Bob in Ghost Story hints that Harry was only mostly dead.. Mab says death is a spectrum, Harry had not fallen so far he couldn't return. Harry has said since then he was only mostly dead, which means he wasn't all dead. His body was kept alive, the risk was something could have happened to his soul in it's walk about, then his body would have died because there was no soul or undamaged soul to return to it.
The body would have stayed alive as long as Bonea, Demonreach and Mab would have stayed to keep care of it whatever happened with Harry (that is his shade, not his body)
It is plausible, his heart was badly damaged to be sure, he lost a lot of blood, but he fell into ice cold water, in the arms of the Queen of Winter, immediate cool down to put him in a state of suspended animation, then on to the island, full i.c.u. set up, Dresden style, nourishment, i.v. supplied by Alfred, circulation/heart/lung supplied by Bonea, and the rest supplied by Mab, keeping the body alive. More importantly, his brain alive, which is the key. When his soul returned, Harry woke up from his coma, he still was a while healing and rehabbing after that. Metaphorically you might say he returned from the dead, but in reality he never was.
Marcone is keeping the body of that girl in a coma alive. If the soul is already gone there is no hope to bring it alive again. She is dead.
You can keep cells of a body alive in a petri dish for decades. The person is still dead.
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The body would have stayed alive as long as Bonea, Demonreach and Mab would have stayed to keep care of it whatever happened with Harry (that is his shade, not his body)
Mab states that if Dresden soul would not return, she would lost a knight and Demonreach its guardian. So I doubt she would keep Dresden's body alive as handy empty soul for some Corpsetaker 2.0. Especially as her Winter Knight deal was with Dresden as a human being, not just mortal shell.
But she knew his soul is running around in spirit-body.
Marcone is keeping the body of that girl in a coma alive. If the soul is already gone there is no hope to bring it alive again. She is dead.
You can keep cells of a body alive in a petri dish for decades. The person is still dead.
Seems to be. But I'd assume if body is recoverable - soul should stay around. With Dresden being wizard and necromancer to big, that was bit different, but even then Mab was angry at Uriel for letting Dresden roam around so... it seems it was somehow faciliated by Archangel.
A shade is not a ghost. It is a spirit + soul, your complete non material self. It can go to church and visit holy ground.
There is a clear distinction. A normal ghost does not have the soul part.
Is there a clear distinction? I mean terms ghost, shade, spirit seems to be used quite wantonly in TDF series, which is tbh expected considering it's one of murkiest elements of reality, even many supernaturals know little about. I'd have to re-read to check if it's used in consistent fashion really.
Not that easy if Harry was dead, the new owner would not invite him. It is just a body. That anchor is nowhere discussed.
I'm not so sure it's just a body. Body holds tremendous power. Blood matters. Bloodlines matters.
Luccio was forcibly forced to new body and it dimnished her willpower and control over magic despite her immaterial self staying the same.
IIRC Dresden has several flashes from his body during Ghost Story - which means he still is somehow connected to it.
Which can be explained both from spirit and soul sides of shade - I mean ghosts of the dead, soulless memories often dwelled around bodies, around remains - there was real power there- that's how Dresden fried Bianca after all.
As Uriel said you are a soul, you have a body. Uriel does not think the body that important anyway.
Dunno. Definitely he wanted to show soul is way way more important.
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You can have your soul outside your body and that does not mean you are dead. You are only dead when you go to the light or whatever metaphor you want to use.So, it's 2 things. His body was alive and his soul was still around.
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You can have your soul outside your body and that does not mean you are dead. You are only dead when you go to the light or whatever metaphor you want to use.So, it's 2 things. His body was alive and his soul was still around.
Well but then Corpsetaker is described as pushed through boundary - (i sort of like idea she was truly dead - not real Corpsetaker and it was just very very powerful ghost just remain of Dresden actions without consideration what killing of such powerful body-hopping wizard can do) but southbound train in the end seems to be proof she was real deal - and yet her soul lingered.
And Uriel claim souls can stay around - but they will with time lost spiritual protection and turn into mad... dunno what really I mean soul cannot be destroyed according to WOJ - it always returns ultimately to its source - but I'm not sure what soul whose ghost body was reduced to nothing can do...
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Mab states that if Dresden soul would not return, she would lost a knight and Demonreach its guardian. So I doubt she would keep Dresden's body alive as handy empty soul for some Corpsetaker 2.0. Especially as her Winter Knight deal was with Dresden as a human being, not just mortal shell.
But she knew his soul is running around in spirit-body.
Yes, that was the argument she had with Uriel, she could have brought Harry back quite quickly I think, but Uriel insisted that Harry be taught a lesson about the soul. It was a huge risk. However it didn't leave Harry's body vulnerable to the Corpstaker, because his body wasn't there when he,Mort, and Molly were fighting her. Also consider where Harry's body was at and who was looking after it, very doubtful that the Corpstaker would have been successful.
Seems to be. But I'd assume if body is recoverable - soul should stay around. With Dresden being wizard and necromancer to big, that was bit different, but even then Mab was angry at Uriel for letting Dresden roam around so... it seems it was somehow faciliated by Archangel.
Yeah, I don't think the comparison with the Beckett girl works. True, she is in a coma, Harry was in a coma, but there it ends I think. While she still lives her soul is very much with her, in Harry's case an archangel intervened so his soul would wander, putting it in real danger.
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Well but then Corpsetaker is described as pushed through boundary - (i sort of like idea she was truly dead - not real Corpsetaker and it was just very very powerful ghost just remain of Dresden actions without
She was described as pushed through the boundary just like Harry
consideration what killing of such powerful body-hopping wizard can do) but southbound train in the end seems to be proof she was real deal - and yet her soul lingered.
And Uriel claim souls can stay around - but they will with time lost spiritual protection and turn into mad... dunno what really I mean soul cannot be destroyed according to WOJ - it always returns ultimately to its source - but I'm not sure what soul whose ghost body was reduced to nothing can do...
I think you have to choose in some way to stay around. A powerful and well educated necromancier knows about the in and outs so she or he can prepare her return. Corpstaker most probably tried a trick her master already used successfully.
But maybe someone can also stay around to protect their descendants. Ancestor worship must be good for something.
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She was described as pushed through the boundary just like Harry
Was she? There was no "just like" comparison in quote about her you linked.
But maybe someone can also stay around to protect their descendants. Ancestor worship must be good for something.
Well yes Sir Stuart seems to be real soul considering Uriel's proposition in finale.
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Was she? There was no "just like" comparison in quote about her you linked.
Lea Made a direct comparison between corpstaker and Harry and of course Harry did not get it. Or maybe he did but he needed Bob’s explanation to get it.
Well yes Sir Stuart seems to be real soul considering Uriel's proposition in finale.
That is what I thought. Maybe ancestor worship helps their shades to stay connected in some way.
When Corpsetaker’s spirit still dwelt upon the mortal coil, even bodies with latent talent were hospitable enough for her to exercise her full power. But thanks to you, and like you, my dear godson, she has passed beyond the threshold between life and death. Now she requires a body with a much greater inherent talent in order to use her gifts once she is inside it.”
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That is what I thought. Maybe ancestor worship helps their shades to stay connected in some way.
I think ancestor worship should work even on pure ghosts as creatures of Nevernever.
When Corpsetaker’s spirit still dwelt upon the mortal coil, even bodies with latent talent were hospitable enough for her to exercise her full power. But thanks to you, and like you, my dear godson, she has passed beyond the threshold between life and death. Now she requires a body with a much greater inherent talent in order to use her gifts once she is inside it.”
Ah yes missed that one.
I must say I'm bit disappointed Corpsetaker was truly herself. Dunno why. Somehow her being angry ghost was cooler idea, sure you can kill their enemies, but their memories shall follow you.
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he body would have stayed alive as long as Bonea, Demonreach and Mab would have stayed to keep care of it whatever happened with Harry (that is his shade, not his body)
That is why I mentioned his brain, body parts are "kept" alive for transplant, but the original soul they belonged to isn't coming back because the brain is dead. Dead brain, person all dead. Harry's brain was very much alive when he fell into Mab's arms, "Die alone.." "Hush." He heard and or imagined both, he couldn't do that with a dead brain. What was done for him on the island kept his body and his brain alive until his soul returned.
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There was scenes when he has suddenly getting flashes of cave, or am I misremember it completely?
That would point to my theory he was still anchored in own living body even if spirit body/ghost allowed him to move around independently.
TBH I sort of wish Dresden was able after this to use proper OOBE and just use his shade as a spy in a risky but controled manner.
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Yes, I wanted Harry to leave GS with some cool ghost powers, but not such luck.
And yes, Mira mentioned that too. His soul was connected to his body.
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Yes, I wanted Harry to leave GS with some cool ghost powers, but not such luck.
And yes, Mira mentioned that too. His soul was connected to his body.
Since he never was a ghost it would have been hard I think. It never was about being a ghost, more about righting a wrong done to Molly and understanding himself, that he cannot be turned into a monster unless he wishes to be turned into one.
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Being fair, what good would cool ghost powers be for Harry anyway? He doesn't even make good use of the powers he has.
Like, remember how in the Graveyard he talks about Sorcerers and how they're scrublords looked down upon by 'real' Wizards? The whole time I was like: "You're talking a lot of smack right now Harry, but the way you describe Sorcerers (dumb brutes that just rely on power and have zero skill) sounds a lot like how the rest of the planet describes you. Maybe get good before you start shit talking."
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forumghost, Mira, true, but I didn't mean that having Harry got those powers were the main purpose of GS. I just want it to have been a small side effects. And "ghost powers" was a way of speaking, I meant something related with being a bodyless soul.
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Being fair, what good would cool ghost powers be for Harry anyway? He doesn't even make good use of the powers he has.
Ability to astral project yourself as shade would be quite cool?
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Ability to astral project yourself as shade would be quite cool?
Yes it would, but Harry was able to do that with Little Chicago too, and he did it all of once before forgetting the thing existed entirely. (What I'm saying is, Harry is a bad Wizard, the only thing he can do is make things go boom.)
That said, we know from Vadderung/WoJ that dying and coming back did something- at least from the wider perspective. It just doesn't appear to manifest itself in an overt way.
He tilted his head and looked at me. "Wizard . . . you have been dead and returned. It has marked you. It has opened doors and paths that you do not yet know exist, and attracted the attention of beings who formerly would never have taken note of your insignificance."
"Meaning what?" I asked.
There was no humor at all in his face. "Meaning that now more than ever, you are a fulcrum. Meaning that your life is about to become very, very interesting."
"I don't understand," I said.
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forumghost, Mira, true, but I didn't mean that having Harry got those powers were the main purpose of GS. I just want it to have been a small side effects. And "ghost powers" was a way of speaking, I meant something related with being a bodyless soul.
Maybe a bit more sensitive to any ghosts around? Maybe actually seeing and being able to converse with the really stronger ones? Not full on Mort, but just a little bit of something, since he was part of that realm for a while, dead or not.
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Yes, I had imagined something like that, but astral projection could be great.
forumghost, Harry is not a bad wizard, he is not so good as he could be. And I wish that he spends the next year studying and getting better. And perhaps...Vadderung was talking about Hades and what happened in SG?
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Memory. It worked different as a spiritual being. Harry could remember things better and more true as how he experienced it.
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Yes, I had imagined something like that, but astral projection could be great.
forumghost, Harry is not a bad wizard, he is not so good as he could be. And I wish that he spends the next year studying and getting better. And perhaps...Vadderung was talking about Hades and what happened in SG?
He kinda is. Harry is the epitome of "Fight Harder, not Smarter". He's running around casting level 8 Fireballs and that's impressive and all, but then you look at Carlos standing over there casting disintegrate for no Mana cost and it's like...
C'mon dude, this guy is you're underclassman and he's making you look like a Noob.
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Being fair, what good would cool ghost powers be for Harry anyway? He doesn't even make good use of the powers he has.
Like, remember how in the Graveyard he talks about Sorcerers and how they're scrublords looked down upon by 'real' Wizards? The whole time I was like: "You're talking a lot of smack right now Harry, but the way you describe Sorcerers (dumb brutes that just rely on power and have zero skill) sounds a lot like how the rest of the planet describes you. Maybe get good before you start shit talking."
He was also completely blindsided by them being blamps despite Vadderung specifically warning him about that a few hours before.
He kinda is. Harry is the epitome of "Fight Harder, not Smarter". He's running around casting level 8 Fireballs and that's impressive and all, but then you look at Carlos standing over there casting disintegrate for no Mana cost and it's like...
C'mon dude, this guy is you're underclassman and he's making you look like a Noob.
Carlos leveled up hard enough that if you dropped BG Carlos (limp and all) in the place of WN Carlos he'd have probably soloed the uberghoul army. Meanwhile it took a book of getting completely outskilled before Harry decided that maybe going back to school would be a good idea.
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He also was completely blindsided by them being blamps despite Vadderung specifically warning him about that a few hours before.
Also I'm sort of surprised he just noted blampires or Fomor as simply sorcerers. They may be limited by their nature - but really not sure if that's description fitting let's say Victor Sells.
Carlos leveled up hard enough that if you dropped BG Carlos (limp and all) in the place of WN Carlos he'd have probably soloed the uberghoul army. Meanwhile it took a book of getting completely outskilled before he decided that maybe going back to school would be a good idea.
It took at least 12 from 17 book of being outskilled I'd say :P
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Problem is he had said that about needing more study thousands of times, and he didn't. He advanced a little with teaching Molly but nothing else.
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Problem is he had said that about needing more study thousands of times, and he didn't. He advanced a little with teaching Molly but nothing else.
Speaking of Molly she gets way more impressive when you remember that even in Cold Days she was years away from being as experienced as Storm Front Harry (in fact, she was about equivalent of Harry on the farm for a year in terms of how long she'd been trained) and yet she completely left even current books Harry in the dust in a lot of ways.
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But that is the mantle.
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But that is the mantle.
No I mentioned Cold Days because that was the last book before she got the mantle, the illusions were all her.
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No I mentioned Cold Days because that was the last book before she got the mantle, the illusions were all her.
That was Lea teaching her. And some real determination to get better. And life on the run relying heavily on her magic.
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Yes.
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Harry never really had a good teacher in the get the most power out of the pupil sense. Justin just wanted a thug he could use and Ebenezer was mostly trying to stamp the warlock out of Harry.
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That is why I think he should have accepted LTW offer long ago and I hope that River teaches him things. But I am afraid he will only be focused in shapeshifting.
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Harry never really had a good teacher in the get the most power out of the pupil sense. Justin just wanted a thug he could use and Ebenezer was mostly trying to stamp the warlock out of Harry.
We'll see if Harry makes a similar leap after a year with a teacher.
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We'll see if Harry makes a similar leap after a year with a teacher.
This would be nice, but I don't know if he will have the time. He is supposed to show up at Lara's side on several occasions, work on his trauma, repair the castle, care for Maggie, (re)establish himself as Wizard of Chicago (whatever that means), fight the occasional monster, do Winter Knight stuff, make some money, ...
I can't imagine LtW will be available as a teacher, because he is Council. Imho it is more likely that River Shoulders become his teacher. But I don't think he would come to live in Chicago, so Harry would have to go to him. Maybe even live a for a while in the forest or the reservation. So even if he can free himself for a while from his duties, what about Maggie. He would either have to take her with him or make her live with the Carpenter's again. I don't think she would agree. Leaving her would hurt her a lot. He won't do that on purpose.
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River Shoulders son is coming to Chicago which I presume was one of the reasons why Job Placement exists. Harry will have a teacher in Chicago.
Really though to complement the glasses, River needs a nice tweed suit with leather elbow patches.
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This would be nice, but I don't know if he will have the time. He is supposed to show up at Lara's side on several occasions, work on his trauma, repair the castle, care for Maggie, (re)establish himself as Wizard of Chicago (whatever that means), fight the occasional monster, do Winter Knight stuff, make some money, ...
I agree.
About the rest, CT is right. And perhaps Harry will finally remember the amulet of his mom is more than a conversational piece and he will use the ways to go back and forth the forest. I don't know. I just really hope he takes at least some time to learn. He is not daft, he just did not care for power so far. But he needs to do it now.
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Which is quite ironic considering at least every 2 books he swoons over how cool Power is and how he loves doing new things with it. Yep.
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River Shoulders son is coming to Chicago which I presume was one of the reasons why Job Placement exists. Harry will have a teacher in Chicago.
Really though to complement the glasses, River needs a nice tweed suit with leather elbow patches.
And don't forget the glasses. Never forget the glasses! Without them he would look scary.
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This would be nice, but I don't know if he will have the time. He is supposed to show up at Lara's side on several occasions, work on his trauma, repair the castle, care for Maggie, (re)establish himself as Wizard of Chicago (whatever that means), fight the occasional monster, do Winter Knight stuff, make some money, ...
I can't imagine LtW will be available as a teacher, because he is Council. Imho it is more likely that River Shoulders become his teacher. But I don't think he would come to live in Chicago, so Harry would have to go to him. Maybe even live a for a while in the forest or the reservation. So even if he can free himself for a while from his duties, what about Maggie. He would either have to take her with him or make her live with the Carpenter's again. I don't think she would agree. Leaving her would hurt her a lot. He won't do that on purpose.
Maggie goes to a boarding school.
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Maggie goes to a boarding school.
Does she? Is that in the books somewhere? I can't remember.
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Does she? Is that in the books somewhere? I can't remember.
Just WoJ at the moment, she's going to the school that's been introduced in the Bigfoot stories (and reintroduced as accorded neutral ground in the microfictions). Harry will still be trying to get the acronym changed from Saint Mark's Academy for the Gifted and Talented to Saint Mark's Academy for the Resourceful and Talented.
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SMART is much, much better.
In the books he mentioned that Maggie would be at school in the Spring, but I think he had not chosen one yet.
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She will be a day student rather than a boarder. Irwin was a Boarder because his mother was often out in the field, which is where she met his father.
Of course Harry should also send Toot and Lacuna as well, they are two and a half foot tall in BG and doubtlessly will have undergone another growth spurt, putting them around Maggie’s size. And the Mouse and Maggie books will need comic relief.
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So the remaining books will be full of passages where he has to ditch the wee child when he runs off to do battle? Or will Mab supply him with a ninny, excuse me, I mean Nanny? ::)
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So the remaining books will be full of passages where he has to ditch the wee child when he runs off to do battle? Or will Mab supply him with a ninny, excuse me, I mean Nanny? ::)
Molly's parents.
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and siblings.
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Of course Harry should also send Toot and Lacuna as well, they are two and a half foot tall in BG and doubtlessly will have undergone another growth spurt, putting them around Maggie’s size. And the Mouse and Maggie books will need comic relief.
Mouse and Maggie books will need not to be written :P
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It is stated several times both in the books and in woj that he was dead.
Yeah. It's kind of an important plot point that Dresden has returned from the dead and wasn't just dead in some technically medical sense or something. That's why he's going to be noticed by beings that would have ignored him before.
A shade is not a ghost. It is a spirit + soul, your complete non material self. It can go to church and visit holy ground.
There is a clear distinction.
You might be right, but I don't think it's clear at all.
And perhaps Harry will finally remember the amulet of his mom is more than a conversational piece and he will use the ways to go back and forth the forest.
Seriously. Harry has said that knowledge was enough to win the war with the Red Court. Come on already! At least use it for something.
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Perhaps Harry the White will have a chance to speak with Eihenjaren even if they are not allowed to come back to Earth yet? :P
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Yeah. It's kind of an important plot point that Dresden has returned from the dead and wasn't just dead in some technically medical sense or something. That's why he's going to be noticed by beings that would have ignored him before.
True.
Perhaps Harry the White will have a chance to speak with Eihenjaren even if they are not allowed to come back to Earth yet? :P
Or just take Odin's job by force :P
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Seriously. Harry has said that knowledge was enough to win the war with the Red Court. Come on already! At least use it for something.
"Why doesn't Harry do this obviously low cost, incredibly easy thing that is massively beneficial and harms noone" could almost be a series tagline at this point.
Almost 20 books in and he has learned nothing.
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"Never once in your life, my Knight, have you taken the easy road. I chose well".
It is one of the things that make Harry, well, Harry.
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"Never once in your life, my Knight, have you taken the easy road. I chose well".
It is one of the things that make Harry, well, Harry.
Not quite what was meant by that. That's about morals while this one is more about intelligence.
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True, but it was also the most practical thing what Harry did not do. He never does. And yes, it's infuriating, I know. I screamed at him dozens of times for not preparing accordingly, for instance. But he is who he is, and I personally like him.
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Not quite what was meant by that. That's about morals while this one is more about intelligence.
That is the age old debate, isn't it? The choice between what is the smart thing to do verses what is the right thing to do. They don't always go together, that is what makes free will a bitch sometimes.
I think that is what Mab means as well, maybe that is why the Knight remains mortal and human in spite of the mantle?
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Ability to astral project yourself as shade would be quite cool?
I think Astral projection and his ability to create a body for himself while doing so will be integral to the time travel book, whenever it happens. I think he has to time travel as a spirit and then make a body to interact with the world. Thus there will be both spiritual and real world encounters in that book. I think he will be at the battle of Arctis Tor, which is the ace in the hole that Mab pulled to beat her enemies in that fight...
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Time Travel as a spirit is interesting idea. Dresden usually breaks laws only so-so.
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Perhaps Harry the White will have a chance to speak with Eihenjaren even if they are not allowed to come back to Earth yet? :P
It won't be Harry the White. It'll be Harry the Grey because he's going to form the Grey Council after "openly challeng[ing] the White Council to battle," as the Gatekeeper seemed to predict Harry would do. (TC).
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Did he mention an open challenge? I of course remembering the Gatekeeper mentioning a confrontation.
Well, the council brought that to themselves :)
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Oh, he might be Harry the White, because Lara will dress him in white, like she always wanted. ;)
Like Margaret LeFay he will be Harry TheWhite. Because of the clothes and the ties to the White Court.
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I like that :D
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LOL he might even get a new white duster. ;D As a wedding gift!!!!
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No, I don't think so. But it could be glamoured to look white :)
I am a hundred percent sure Harry thinks of himself as Dresden the white.
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Saruman was "the White" before Gandalf. But I do hope that by now he doesn't compare himself to a monster any more. So Gandalf would be more fitting.
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Saruman was "the White" before Gandalf. But I do hope that by now he doesn't compare himself to a monster any more. So Gandalf would be more fitting.
Bwahahahahahaha
Yeah I'm sure that he'll stop doing that any second. It's not as though self-flagellation is a core character trait for him.
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^so much this :D
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Did he mention an open challenge? I of course remembering the Gatekeeper mentioning a confrontation.
Well, the council brought that to themselves :)
It won't be Harry the White. It'll be Harry the Grey because he's going to form the Grey Council after "openly challeng[ing] the White Council to battle," as the Gatekeeper seemed to predict Harry would do. (TC).
The quotation marks indicate a quote, so yes he did mention an open challenge.
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Sorry. Well, thank you. Oh, those poor people.