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The Dresden Files => DFRPG => Topic started by: Saedar on March 22, 2010, 06:23:21 PM

Title: Question/Thought about sponsored magic
Post by: Saedar on March 22, 2010, 06:23:21 PM
Hello all! This is my first time posting but I've been lurking for a while. I like to lurk...

Anyway! I was thinking about a character idea the other day (think Champion of Lucifer, anti-Michael) and I was wondering about the in-game laws regarding sponsored magic. I know that vampires and fae and such can use abilities that would otherwise violate the Laws (mind-control, killing and the like) but what about mortals saddled with sponsored magic? Do the Laws not apply because they come from a non-mortal source or do the Wardens still get to be all head-choppy because its a mortal making use of the abilities?

Sorry if this is a little convoluted. I will clarify if needed!
Title: Re: Question/Thought about sponsored magic
Post by: iago on March 22, 2010, 06:27:13 PM
I get your question, but the answer is really going to be decided on a game by game basis. Personally, I think you might still be vulnerable to the spiritual consequences of breaking the laws of magic (i.e., you'll find yourself getting hit with the Lawbreaker stunt/penalty thing), but I don't know if the Wardens would necessarily get involved. They might, though; I doubt the White Council has a non-aggression pact with Hell. :)
Title: Re: Question/Thought about sponsored magic
Post by: Archmage_Cowl on March 22, 2010, 07:17:50 PM
a possibly related question(sorry if it isnt) Could an outsider grant sponsored magic? and would the fairy queens grant sponsored magic(like to their knight) or would that be more like giving them fairy magic?
Title: Re: Question/Thought about sponsored magic
Post by: Saedar on March 22, 2010, 07:43:12 PM
Awesome! Thanks for the quick reply. I see what you mean about the spiritual consequences. I always enjoy playing characters on the...how shall we say...left-handed side of morality. Maybe a Scion or Emissary of Power could be fun.

As for outsider's handing out sponsored magic, I kind of thought that that was something Cowl and the White King (through his anti-magic resistances) had accomplished, but that may just be individual gifts or rituals. Is Faerie Magic not a sub-type of Sponsored Magic? It is listed separately on Rick Neal's page...hmm...this bears investigating.
Title: Re: Question/Thought about sponsored magic
Post by: Archmage_Cowl on March 22, 2010, 07:45:46 PM
Quote from: Saedar on March 22, 2010, 07:43:12 PM
Is Faerie Magic not a sub-type of Sponsored Magic? It is listed separately on Rick Neal's page...hmm...this bears investigating.
My thoughts exactly lol  ;D
Title: Re: Question/Thought about sponsored magic
Post by: Deadmanwalking on March 22, 2010, 08:43:16 PM
Quote from: Saedar on March 22, 2010, 07:43:12 PM
Is Faerie Magic not a sub-type of Sponsored Magic? It is listed separately on Rick Neal's page...hmm...this bears investigating.

I'm pretty sure it is, but listed seperately as a notable example, just like being Summer or Winter Knight is a specialized form of Emissary of Power but listed seperately.
Title: Re: Question/Thought about sponsored magic
Post by: iago on March 22, 2010, 08:47:15 PM
Yep. We list Seelie and Unseelie Magic as separate named abilities even though they work just like Sponsored Magic (and essentially are Sponsored Magic). It makes sense to split that sort of thing out explicitly occasionally in the powers list due to the frequency that that particular variety of magic is encountered.
Title: Re: Question/Thought about sponsored magic
Post by: Ancalagon on March 22, 2010, 10:28:32 PM
Actually, that raises an interesting question - why aren't the Wardens more active about fighting the Denarians?  Many of them (meaning the human hosts) are sorcerers in their own rights, and I am certain they are breaking the Laws of Magic... just look at
(click to show/hide)
Title: Re: Question/Thought about sponsored magic
Post by: iago on March 22, 2010, 10:30:42 PM
Quote from: Ancalagon on March 22, 2010, 10:28:32 PM
Actually, that raises an interesting question - why aren't the Wardens more active about fighting the Denarians?  Many of them (meaning the human hosts) are sorcerers in their own rights, and I am certain they are breaking the Laws of Magic... just look at
(click to show/hide)
They're not really... people... any more. And the Knights of the Cross are in the field specifically to combat the Denarians. I'd imagine they'd help out once in a while, just like the Knights help the Council, but it's not their "beat", to use cop parlance.
Title: Re: Question/Thought about sponsored magic
Post by: SoulCatcher78 on March 22, 2010, 10:48:11 PM
Quote from: Ancalagon on March 22, 2010, 10:28:32 PM
Actually, that raises an interesting question - why aren't the Wardens more active about fighting the Denarians?  Many of them (meaning the human hosts) are sorcerers in their own rights, and I am certain they are breaking the Laws of Magic... just look at
(click to show/hide)

(click to show/hide)
Title: Re: Question/Thought about sponsored magic
Post by: Saedar on March 22, 2010, 10:53:27 PM
@SoulCatcher78: But by that logic, you could consider that Gard, being technically one of
(click to show/hide)
would be protected from Warden-based justice through his being
(click to show/hide)
.

I love this... Why oh why did I not join sooner....?
Title: Re: Question/Thought about sponsored magic
Post by: SoulCatcher78 on March 22, 2010, 11:24:20 PM
Quote from: Saedar on March 22, 2010, 10:53:27 PM
@SoulCatcher78: But by that logic, you could consider that Gard, being technically one of
(click to show/hide)
would be protected from Warden-based justice through his being
(click to show/hide)
.

I love this... Why oh why did I not join sooner....?

(click to show/hide)

The Laws (and enforcement of them) seems to be limited to mortal practitioners as far as I can tell.  Magic using beings who are not considered human do not fall into the Wardens area of responsibility (they might not like it but unless these beings confront them directly, I doubt that a Warden would try to stop them). 
Title: Re: Question/Thought about sponsored magic
Post by: Saedar on March 23, 2010, 02:25:54 AM
Good point. I keep forgetting about the Valkyrie issue.

On a related issue to my OP, how would you handle a (PC) non-human Emissary/Scion/Champion/Something of Lucifer tossing around power of a distinctly hellish nature but not on the level of, say, the Denarians?
Title: Re: Question/Thought about sponsored magic
Post by: srl51676 on March 23, 2010, 07:32:34 AM
it would all depend on the source of power and the nature of the character. I would say humans not protected by a patron who is a signatory of the accords are by default under the preview of the council. If for no other reason than no one is going to stop the wardens and they see it as their duty. As there is not "Spirit" of the accords anyone not specifically protected is fair game to any power willing to attempt to exert control. If lucifer in your game is a signatory, which he must be the guy loves a contract, then any agent of his "mortal" or otherwise would be outside of the wardens jurisdiction in their law enforcement capacity. This does not mean that if you are messing with mortals they would not drop the heavy end of the hammer on you in their capacity as protectors of humanity just like they would a rouge demon or a rampaging troll. The cops do not arrest rabid dogs when they attack they just shoot them.
Title: Re: Question/Thought about sponsored magic
Post by: SoulCatcher78 on March 23, 2010, 11:38:53 AM
Quote from: srl51676 on March 23, 2010, 07:32:34 AM
I would say humans not protected by a patron who is a signatory of the accords are by default under the preview of the council. If for no other reason than no one is going to stop the wardens and they see it as their duty. As there is not "Spirit" of the accords anyone not specifically protected is fair game to any power willing to attempt to exert control.

Great explanation.  Consider it stolen.
Title: Re: Question/Thought about sponsored magic
Post by: Saedar on March 23, 2010, 09:30:19 PM
Likewise stolen. My wife will be so excited to torment me with Accords legalese in the game she's planning...

But yes, I can definitely see a Lucifer figure being a signatory. I see him running operations in a very White Court-esque way, but maybe that's just me.
Title: Re: Question/Thought about sponsored magic
Post by: Lanodantheon on March 24, 2010, 11:43:08 PM
My advice on this is a White Council "Lemon Test" for characters like this that skate the Laws of Magic/sponsorship thing.
If your proposed character falls under either of these rules then the Laws of Magic apply to that character:

1. Is the magic/power being used Mortal in origin?
Is it his own magic or is it someone else's?
The White Council only has purview over Mortal practioners of magic and the Laws of magic only apply to Mortal practioners because they represesnt acts that corrupt because Magic reflects its owner. If the magic isn't a Mortal's, if it comes from somewhere else, the user is just a channel and it comes from another source.

If it's someone else magic then the character is off the hook.

2. Is the purpose of the character to get around the Laws of Magic for the Player's personal amusement?

Context is everything. The Lawbreaker Stunts in the game and in the setting itself represent corruption. A person who kills mortals with magic is a big deal, so something or someone has to determine its morality for a character.

If the PC is meant to be someone who isn't a Wizard, but still has some things in place to control his/her actions then that can be dealt with. An Emissary of Power has a patron who dictates the limits of what that character can do. With that Patron under GM control then the Laws of Magic needn't be dealt with necessarily because if a PC melts down a bus full of nuns then the PC's patron will have words with that PC or cut him/her off and let the Mortal Authorities deal with him. The Player of that PC probably wants to play that character because he has power but isn't a Wizard so there really isn't a problem.

A problem exists if a Player wants to play a Character not bound by the Laws of Magic so he/she can get away with what is against the rules. If the PC exists solely so the Player can Kill, Enthrall, Raise armies of the Dead, etc then that PC needs the Laws of magic because the Character only exists for the Player to vent and do things that are against the rules.

"I want to kill humans!"
"I want to Rape people's minds!"
"I want to make people my personal puppets!"
"I want to Make the Army of Darkness!"
"I want to turn people into sheep!"
"I want to F@*$ around with Time!"
"I want an Outsider to be my B@($!"


If your player says any of these things with great glee, please consider no allowing their character that lets them do all that and maybe get them psychological help if they are serious.
Title: Re: Question/Thought about sponsored magic
Post by: Archmage_Cowl on March 25, 2010, 01:04:19 AM
Quote from: Lanodantheon on March 24, 2010, 11:43:08 PM
If your player says any of these things with great glee, please consider no allowing their character that lets them do all that and maybe get them psychological help if they are serious.
But the seriousness is what makes the game interesting. lol  ;D
Title: Re: Question/Thought about sponsored magic
Post by: Bosh on March 25, 2010, 05:34:00 AM
In any case I think it'd be a lot more fun to rules lawyer the laws of magic than to break them outright, I'd be fun to have an NPCs thumbing his nose at the Wardens by:

"I didn't kill anybody with magic, I just used my shield to make sure that I was the only one who survived the big mundane bomb blast that took out the building."

"I didn't invade anyone's mind, I just drove them insane by disrupting their whole conception of reality with glamours."
Title: Re: Question/Thought about sponsored magic
Post by: iago on March 25, 2010, 05:42:41 AM
Cue the Warden who says, "I didn't pay attention to what he was saying, I just knew he'd killed people and was a sorceror, so I cut off his head!"  ;D
Title: Re: Question/Thought about sponsored magic
Post by: Ihadris on March 25, 2010, 05:51:53 AM
I suppose when youve been policing the wizarding community for hundreds of years youve heard it all before!  ;)
Title: Re: Question/Thought about sponsored magic
Post by: srl51676 on March 25, 2010, 06:10:21 AM
Thank you Fred So many gamers are so predictable. Give them a rule and its "not hmm how do I work within these rules to accomplish my goals" its "hmm how can I have these rules not apply to me" This takes a huge chunk of the challenge out of the game.
Title: Re: Question/Thought about sponsored magic
Post by: Bosh on March 25, 2010, 06:25:19 AM
Quote from: srl51676 on March 25, 2010, 06:10:21 AM
Thank you Fred So many gamers are so predictable. Give them a rule and its "not hmm how do I work within these rules to accomplish my goals" its "hmm how can I have these rules not apply to me" This takes a huge chunk of the challenge out of the game.

Yes but that works very well for NPCs. There's nothing PCs like more than taking down someone who thinks that the rules don't apply to them :)
Title: Re: Question/Thought about sponsored magic
Post by: Ihadris on March 25, 2010, 06:50:03 AM
Quote from: Bosh on March 25, 2010, 06:25:19 AM
Yes but that works very well for NPCs. There's nothing PCs like more than taking down someone who thinks that the rules don't apply to them :)

And then the aftermath with the mortal authorities is always a good giggle. I hear that people tend to remember strangers walking around with blood covered silver swords.
Title: Re: Question/Thought about sponsored magic
Post by: iago on March 25, 2010, 02:20:03 PM
Quote from: Ihadris on March 25, 2010, 06:50:03 AM
And then the aftermath with the mortal authorities is always a good giggle. I hear that people tend to remember strangers walking around with blood covered silver swords.
These would be the same strangers who veilled an entire warehouse to conduct a formal beheading, right?
Title: Re: Question/Thought about sponsored magic
Post by: Saedar on March 25, 2010, 06:17:02 PM
Details, Fred. Inconsequential details.  ;)
Title: Re: Question/Thought about sponsored magic
Post by: mrsleep on March 26, 2010, 01:22:05 AM
Quote
Cue the Warden who says, "I didn't pay attention to what he was saying, I just knew he'd killed people and was a sorceror, so I cut off his head!"  Grin

Even if a characters gets away with skirting or breaking the Laws by being protected under the Accords (basically Diplomatic Immunity) it won't protect them from cowboy justice.

Dark alley + tire-iron = crushed skull.  ;D