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The Dresden Files => DF Spoilers => Topic started by: Con on August 22, 2017, 05:37:18 AM
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WARNING: Lengthy post.
So I've been thinking about Mab and the Winter Court and what the higher members of a court owe their Sovereign or Sovereigns.
Summer Knight- Lea sells Harry’s debt to Mab to exchange a balance for the power that Morgana’s Athame gave her. Which gives Mab power over Harry.
We also know that Lord Marshall Talon had to obey Summer Lady Aurora even when she was directly working against her own Court.
Similarly Lloyd had to obey Maeve's orders, although he did show signs of rebellion and was working for Aurora which is where his Free Will comes into play.
Blood Rites-
Dead Beat- Harry summons Leanansidhe, but gets Mab instead.
“Disturb me? Hardly. I am here only to fulfil the duties I have been obliged to take upon myself. It is no fault of thine that this summons reached mine ears”
“My vassal’s oaths and bargains are binding upon me, so long as I restrain her from fulfilling them.”
“Does that mean that you will help me?” I asked.
“It means that I will give you what she might give you” Mab said and speak what knowledge she might have spoken to you were she here in flesh, rather than in proxy”
Proven Guilty- is a mess and everyone likes discussing it, but I'll keep it brief. Lily has Fix as a loyal retainer, Maeve tried to enact revenge on the Werewolf's using Jenny Greenteeth her loyal Handmaiden at this point thanks to Nemfection was able to lie through her teeth. Leanansidhe had requested the Mab cure her of Nemfection through Winter Torture. Finally Lilly was able to give Harry a Summer Boon despite Titania's hatred of him.
White Night- see's Lara Raith capturing the Little Folk to use as lanterns as a calculated insult against Faerie to see if the debts and obligations of Lord and Master and Peasant folk still applied. Dresden then gets reputation and a boost in the Za Lord's Guard, making Toot more powerful as his name and rank grow.
Small Favour- The Gruff's seem to be Titania's personal order of hit men, however Eldest Gruff can divert Titania's direct order enough so that he fulfils another debt and order to the Summer Court, like getting a frosty doughnut with sprinkles on it. Eldest Gruff is also able to advise Titania against killing Harry. Mab also orders the Grimalkin to speak for her as she’s too in wounded rage to speak.
Changes- Mab is able to send two retainers with full Winter powers at their disposal to fight and wipe out the Red Court. Lea is used as a sock puppet to speak for Mab, but is reprimanded when she speaks out of turn.
"It is not for my handmaiden to judge or question me, nor to speak for me upon her own account"
Lea is allowed "to indulge herself". "I give thee this adviser fir thy final quest, sir Knight. My handmaiden is among the most powerful beings in all of my Winter, second only to myself"
Lea's warmer, more languid voice came from her lips as she asked, "My queen to what degree am I permitted to act?"
I thought I saw the fell light gleam on Mab's teeth as she said "You may indulge yourself"
Erlking plays wordplay of guest right and obligation with Harry in his Hall but warns Harry to summon Mab’s name thrice as that would be an invasion of his territory and against the little games of protocol.
Ghost Story- Mab is able with all of her strength combine it with Demonreach, Bonnea "the parasite" and Uriel Preserve Harry's life force until his Soul reenters it, all the while taking down a potential threat in Corpsetaker and the Fomor. Lea later confirms in Ghost Story that Mab would not have been able to order Lea to fight the Red Court as she did. That Lea owed the Red Court a debt of violence for making her nemfected.
“Tsk. In all of Winter, I am second in power only to Mab which she has allowed because I have incurred with it proportionate obligation to her. She is my dearest enemy, but even I do not owe Mab so much. I helped you as much as I did, sweet child, because I owed you for collecting a portion of my due justice from Bianca” The Leanansidh said. Her eyes grew wider, wilder. “The rest I took from the little whore’s masters. Though I admit, I hadn’t expected the collection to be quite so thorough.”
Lea also confirms in this scene that Faerie's can't act without a balancing act in return. "Indeed" she said beaming at me. "There must be balance sweet godchild. Always balance. Never take a thing without giving such a thing in return; never give a favor without collecting one in return. All reality depends on balance"
Plus there’s this this little tidbit If Lea had been the high priestess of murder, bloodlust, scheming and manipulation, then Mab was the Goddess my godmother worshipped. Come to think of it that was probably an apt description of their relationship.
Leanansidhe is also training Molly is a back up Winter Lady at this point.
Cold Days- Mab obligate’s Kringle, Eldest Gruff and The Erlking to attend her new Winter Knight's Birthday Party.
Meanwhile The Redcap is allowed to directly challenge the Winter Knight, Mab's latest toy. The Redcap is allowed to continue to pursue this grudge at the behest of Maeve despite Harry working on Mab's direct orders.
The Mother’s have shared insight or consciousness and know everything their counter part knows within the Courts. They also look over deadly world plague’s until time for their release.
Cat Sith is obligated and ordered to assist Harry in anyway Harry requests and does so at great lengths.
Kringle has some fun on the Wildhunt fighting Outsiders, helping fulfill the Winter Knight's mission.
Skin Game- Mab owe's Nicodemus a debt as she utilised him before she had realised she could promote Leansidhe higher in her court. Kringle reveals that if Mab had called upon Vadderung she would have been told to get in line.
"The Winter Knight called for me in his official capacity as an agent of the Winter Court. Mab has the right to summon Kringle. If she’d called for Vadderung, I'd have told her to get in line"
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“Legally speaking, Kringle and Vadderung are two entirely different people who simply happen to reside in the same body” he replied
“That’s just a fiction” I said “a little game of protocol”
“Little games of protocol are how one shows respect, especially to those with whom one does not get along famously well. It can be tedious, but generally is less trouble than a duel would be.”
Ok so that’s all the evidence we have of hierarchy, obligations and favours within the Faerie Courts in the books proper.
Now if we take Mab’s statement that Lea is second in Winter as literal truth which it has to be as she can’t make a direct outright lie. Then Lea is even more powerful than Maeve the Winter Lady, despite the fact that the Ladies are sovereigns and immortals.
Take this and add what we know about Kringle combined with this WOJ
Where are the Farie kings? Do they exist?
Yes they do. The Erlking as sort of the Hunter king, and Santa Clause, the Winter king who is not the commercial Santa Clause. The kings are sort of the opposite of the queens in their given season. They are independent of their Queen’s courts. The Erlking is a summer king and he is not a particularly friendly guy, whereas Santa Clause, one of the winter kings, is kinder, the spirit of generosity in a time of bleakness. Yah I’ve gota have Harry ask Mab about him so she can roll her eyes.
Dudesan: You've described Santa Claus as being the Winter King. What does that title mean? Do Winter and Summer each have a trinity of Father/King/Prince, like they do with Mother/Queen/Lady? Is the King necessarily the consort of the Queen? If so, will we be seeing Oberon at some point?
Jim: 5) The Faerie realms just aren't that structured. It's more accurate to say that he is /a/ Winter King. Or even more accurately, that he is a free Wyld Fae who is of a power level that is on par with Mab's and happens to neighbor her sphere of influence, and finds it simpler to show up to family dinners during the holidays and make polite than to start staking out boundaries and establishing treaties.
Oberon... well, the guy kind of wound up between Mab and Titania in one of those romantic triangle things, back around Shakespeare's day. He didn't make it.
2013 KC signing Q&A
Is Kringle Fae?
His mantle, yes, is part of the Winter Court. Which does not necessarily mean that he himself is Fae as much as the fact that his mantle is. While he’s there, he’s got to pay deference to Mab. If Mab gives him a command, he has to obey it.
If we were to make a chart of Hierarchy of the Courts than it would look something like this.
Mother Winter Atropis and Skuld-Queen Mab-(Leanansidhe)- Lady Molly
Kringle
Mother Summer- Queen Titania- (Eldest Gruff)- Lady Sarissa
Erlking
Where else do you think other Faerie’s exist in this hierarchy, under what terms does a powerful member of Faerie obey or have obligations to the Queens. Kringle seems to mostly be a formality, of showing up when asked, but does not have any direct orders of obedience to follow.
Leanansidhe seems to have a bit more debt and obligation to Mab. Being required to give up Harry’s significant debt, be Mab’s mouth piece, Train Molly as a potential Winter Lady. However even she can’t be ordered by Mab to go all out against the Red Court as she did.
Eldest Gruff is able to divert or subvert a direct order from his Queen in exchange for honouring a debt to Summer Court.
Jim has stated that Erlking isn’t required to obey Titania, but presumably their’s similar levels of formality that Kringle has to go through, particularly given the Erlking’s concern and obedience to Harry’s wordplay during Changes.
Also what other King’s or Lords of Winter and Summer are their?
I’ve always thought that Jack Frost and Peter Pan would make great Winter and Summer Princes respectively. Jack Frost has the power to manipulate Shadows, so in my head he played a prank on Peter Pan and separated Peter’s shadow.
Jack Frost is also first mentioned in a poem obeying Santa Claus, so there’s that connection.
Any other figures from folklore who’d be good candidates as powerful members of Faerie?
Discuss and Thanks for reading :)
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That's an interesting post. I think I'll have to reread it at a later time to add more than this. We don't know if Lord Talos (I think that was his name.) survived newly changed troll Meryl falling on him in Summer Knight. I tend to think he didn't survive but we can't be certain. There was also the Centaur Korrick, though I think he was more muscle than high ranking official.
Also, I'm not sure where Cat Sith fits into the Winter hierarchy but malks seen to be important to Mab because she used one as her translator. Plus, Harry called Sith the Monarch of the Malks. This would make him a lord in his own right who serves one greater than himself. (Mab) If Cat Sith can't be cured my guess is Grimalkin is probably next in line.
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I was always confused about the nature of the relationship between Grimalkin and Cat Sith whether or not they were the same type of creature or even the same being entirely. Either way both of their close relationships with Mab of directly taking her orders would suggest they're in her entourage and sphere of the Courts. Cat Sith's assistance to Harry to kill Maeve confirms it.
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Toot painted his face half blue when Harry became the Winter Knight in Changes. He said "We are Winter now".
It could come down to individual bargains and relationships, just as in medieval feudal society. A simple peasant or soldier was directly related to his lord. The lord was in a direct relationship to a duke e. g., the duke then to a king and so on. By these indirect links, the king ruled the whole country.
Things like Kringle being Vadderung with different relationships to Queen Mab were not uncommon at all in the higher aristocracy. These guys held several titles. The king of one country could own a duchy in another and technically be the vassal of someone with whom he was otherwise in an equal relationship and maybe even be at war with him.
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I was always confused about the nature of the relationship between Grimalkin and Cat Sith whether or not they were the same type of creature or even the same being entirely. Either way both of their close relationships with Mab of directly taking her orders would suggest they're in her entourage and sphere of the Courts. Cat Sith's assistance to Harry to kill Maeve confirms it.
And the Enemy's desire to infest him, I think is more to the point. My impression is Grimalkin and Cat Sith are the same kind of creature, and it appears they have their own pecking order.
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Toot painted his face half blue when Harry became the Winter Knight in Changes. He said "We are Winter now".
It could come down to individual bargains and relationships, just as in medieval feudal society. A simple peasant or soldier was directly related to his lord. The lord was in a direct relationship to a duke e. g., the duke then to a king and so on. By these indirect links, the king ruled the whole country.
Things like Kringle being Vadderung with different relationships to Queen Mab were not uncommon at all in the higher aristocracy. These guys held several titles. The king of one country could own a duchy in another and technically be the vassal of someone with whom he was otherwise in an equal relationship and maybe even be at war with him.
I figure that Kringle and Erlking are the equivelent of Earl's or Jarls in Germanic and Norse societies, given their both from Norse and Germanic mythologies, plus you know "Earl"king.
The only thing I know about the nature of the relationships between Earl's/Jarl's and Kings comes from the tv show Vikings where they would band together for campaigns, but that Earl's/Jarl's often had enough power to challenge the Monarch.
My question is where do these duties and obligations begin and end. Kringle has to adhere to little games of protocol, but where does Mab's power over him extend to. Given Erlking and Kringle's alliance with Mab during the events of Cold Days, there is some cooperation, but both the Erlking and Kringle have stated that they don't get along with Mab. Erlking in Changes when he warns Harry against summoning Mab another ruler into his domain, and Kringle outright states it as I've quoted above.
Does Mab now owe Kringle and Erlking a debt for Cold Days? Or were they returning the favour?
And the Enemy's desire to infest him, I think is more to the point. My impression is Grimalkin and Cat Sith are the same kind of creature, and it appears they have their own pecking order.
So they're the same creature but in a different pecking order. Whose higher, Grimalkin as her favoured Pet, or Cat Sith as her Cat Paw * ba dum ching*
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Cold Days might have been a special case, Kringle and the Erlking might have decided to help themselves. I got the impression that the usual rules don't necessarily apply when it comes to Outsiders. They're everyone's enemy.
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That would seem to go against the nature of fairie balance and favours.
Unless the balance being redressed was Natural World vs The Outside.
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That would seem to go against the nature of fairie balance and favours.
Unless the balance being redressed was Natural World vs The Outside.
It could also be ... smaller adjustments being redressed.
If Kringle and the EK do things to support Winter in their usual course of "ruling" their courts, that may be obligation, but small debts may be incurred. By doing things like they did in Cold Days it may balance out several of these smaller favors.
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I'm not sure there is what we would consider a hierarchy (e.g. military chain of command) in the Courts, it's more of a constantly shifting balance of power. Take Lea and Molly; Lea has a lot of personal power inherited from Mab in exchange for acting as her faithful handmaiden but must bargain with other fae to get them to act. It looks like Molly has less power (individual magical strength) than Lea but does have agents, such as the Knight, directly under her control that increases her influence. I haven't read anything yet that would accurately place either of them in a hierarchy; words are too easy for the fae to twist for any of Lea or Mab's statements to be ironclad.
On maintaining balance: the fae have had centuries of practice at finding pretexts to act. Given the long battle with the Outsiders I'm sure Kringle and the Erlking had no problem justifying their actions in Cold Days as balancing some prior slight they had received from them.
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That would seem to go against the nature of fairie balance and favours.
Unless the balance being redressed was Natural World vs The Outside.
That's a Balance. Probably not the only one, or at least not that easily broken down into one or the other.
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Jim has mentioned that if, for instance, one or more of the fallen in the coins were to be release, several balances would suddenly be out of ... balance.
So I agree there are lots of balances out there. Some are like those when you weigh something, others are probably more like a balance found through tension, and others like the balance that is found that provides lift to an airplane (a vacuum of power?).
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I still think there had to be some sort of exchange between the Erlking and Kringle and Mab. I mean Corpsetaker was a mutual enemy too but Mab still had to redress the balance of the favour she gave to Uriel in Skin Game.
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I still think there had to be some sort of exchange between the Erlking and Kringle and Mab. I mean Corpsetaker was a mutual enemy too but Mab still had to redress the balance of the favour she gave to Uriel in Skin Game.
What favor did Mab give to Uriel in Skin Game? If anything it can be seen as it was in Small Favor, they had a common interest..
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And you don't think that was in an of itself a balance of exchanges? In Small Favour Mab sends Harry into battle Uriel sends the Knights of the Cross. That's an equal balance if I ever heard one.
Ghost Story the Favour was Uriel keeping Harry Soul Alive in Purgatory While Mab kept his body alive. Again both of their causes had been compromised by Harry's death.
Skin Game a repayment against the Denarians for their actions in both Small Favour and Skin Game in defeating their mutual enemy, all the while Mab gained power in WMD's of the Vault and Uriel got the chance to save multiple Souls through the actions of humanities Free Will. Including potentially Harry's.
Think of what Mac said to Mab "May your scales always return to Balance" "Flatterer"
All of those instances are about scales of balancing actions that have equal actions.
Plus I thought there was a WOJ about Skin Game being Mab clearing her ledger of favours and debts, which implied her favours and debts to Nicodemus, Uriel, Marcone and Hades. But I can't seem to find it and this hasn't been my day of misquoting hearsay WOJ's, so I won't use it in this argument.
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And you don't think that was in an of itself a balance of exchanges? In Small Favour Mab sends Harry into battle Uriel sends the Knights of the Cross. That's an equal balance if I ever heard one.
Balancing forces imply opposition. Two unrelated bullets fired at the same target do nothing to balance each other.
Ghost Story the Favour was Uriel keeping Harry Soul Alive in Purgatory While Mab kept his body alive. Again both of their causes had been compromised by Harry's death.
That was not cooperation, Mab specifically stated that it pissed her right off that Uriel risked Harry that way. And ultimately Uriel's goal was to prevent Mab from sinking her hooks into Harry too much. This is not cooperation, it is competition.
Skin Game a repayment against the Denarians for their actions in both Small Favour and Skin Game in defeating their mutual enemy, all the while Mab gained power in WMD's of the Vault and Uriel got the chance to save multiple Souls through the actions of humanities Free Will. Including potentially Harry's.
Think of what Mac said to Mab "May your scales always return to Balance" "Flatterer"
All of those instances are about scales of balancing actions that have equal actions.
Plus I thought there was a WOJ about Skin Game being Mab clearing her ledger of favours and debts, which implied her favours and debts to Nicodemus, Uriel, Marcone and Hades. But I can't seem to find it and this hasn't been my day of misquoting hearsay WOJ's, so I won't use it in this argument.
It was stated right in the books that it was about balacing debts, but nothing that I know of points to anything involving Uriel owing or being owed any debts. The debts discussed were specifically Nic (both what she owed from way back and the vengeance from SmF) and Marcone (ie the SmF stuff), and to a lesser extent the skull for Bob and the diammonds as wereguild. With Hades, Harry surmised that Hades was complicit in the whole escapade by being Marcone's first "investor", but nothing about debt, I figured part of his Armory role is to facilitate the occasional audition.
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We also know that Lord Marshall Talon had to obey Summer Lady Aurora even when she was directly working against her own Court.
I don't think that is an accurate description. Lord Marshall Talos was incapable of believing Aurora was working directly against her own Court because it is impossible for the Lady to do so. Telling him that Aurora was crazy and working against Summer would be like telling him 2 + 2 doesn't equal 4. The problem with Lord Talos was that he either doesn't know about Nemesis' existence, doesn't understand how it can affect the Lady (allowing her to do impossible things), or that he is so shortsighted and pigheaded that he never considered/believed that Aurora was infected. If Talos understood what was wrong with Aurora, his allegiance to Summer would have trumped his allegiance to her.
Personally, I think it is the first, Nemesis is a secret even among the Fae.
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I think nemesis is a secret and not sure why.
Sure if they started letting everyone know about it, Nemesis would go into hiding, but that would not be bad. It would make it harder for N to do it's job.
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I think nemesis is a secret and not sure why.
Sure if they started letting everyone know about it, Nemesis would go into hiding, but that would not be bad. It would make it harder for N to do it's job.
For the same reasons the Black Council is being kept a Secret: they are afriad they'd get a rash of deserters who want to switch to the super-powerful side that can give them Super-Powers like Lying! IF a Lady could be swayed, your average fae mook would likely JUMP a the chance to Lie, or to be able to simply Accept a Gift, or maybe Quit their current Court.
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Who ever holds the table can use it to claim power, but I wonder if there is a way for the courts to share any taken power, or for it to go to the lands of faerie as a whole. I had an idea that both summer and winter could work together to take down the fomor, I particular bringing those entities of power they have to be sacrificed on the stone table. This was due to the fact the fomor are said to be part Sihde. The thing is from what we have seen only the court currently claiming the table gets any added power. So for any partnership to work, the power has to shared so there has to be a way.
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Who ever holds the table can use it to claim power, but I wonder if there is a way for the courts to share any taken power, or for it to go to the lands of faerie as a whole. I had an idea that both summer and winter could work together to take down the fomor, I particular bringing those entities of power they have to be sacrificed on the stone table. This was due to the fact the fomor are said to be part Sihde. The thing is from what we have seen only the court currently claiming the table gets any added power. So for any partnership to work, the power has to shared so there has to be a way.
I dont /think/ so? The Wyldfae are a huge population compared to the seasonally aligned fae, and per WOJ the seasonal Courts operate more by political consensus within independent wyldfae interests when operating in the Southern Hemisphere, as compared to their more absolute rulership in the north. Given that I dont know that they have the sort of thaumaturgic access Id expect for them to be able to distribute Power uniformly.
As an alternative, the Power doesnt have to be /Shared/ persay, the final balance of power simply needs to equalize out. So if one Court gets a boatload of Power as a result of the partnership, the terms of the partnership could require a gift from one side to the other to redress the Balance. More or less just like Lea and Mab with the whole Athame vs Harry's Debt; the Athame upset the balance of Power (akin to any claimed Fomor Power) so the other interest (mab) was able to demand some other concession that was bargained to be equivalent.
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The stone table is a place of power for the courts, I wonder if there might be a location key for the lands of faerie as a whole.. So instead of sustaining the courts, the added power goes into faerie which sustains the courts.
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The stone table is a place of power for the courts, I wonder if there might be a location key for the lands of faerie as a whole.. So instead of sustaining the courts, the added power goes into faerie which sustains the courts.
Ireland somewhere i'd think? Something like Stonehenge to compare to say, chicken pizza. An earthly sanctum for the Courts themselves?
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Cold Days, Harry specifically uses the term "The Adversary" because that's the safe term to use because use of the name Nemesis can risk attracting it's attention.
I dont /think/ so? The Wyldfae are a huge population compared to the seasonally aligned fae, and per WOJ the seasonal Courts operate more by political consensus within independent wyldfae interests when operating in the Southern Hemisphere, as compared to their more absolute rulership in the north. Given that I dont know that they have the sort of thaumaturgic access Id expect for them to be able to distribute Power uniformly.
As an alternative, the Power doesnt have to be /Shared/ persay, the final balance of power simply needs to equalize out. So if one Court gets a boatload of Power as a result of the partnership, the terms of the partnership could require a gift from one side to the other to redress the Balance. More or less just like Lea and Mab with the whole Athame vs Harry's Debt; the Athame upset the balance of Power (akin to any claimed Fomor Power) so the other interest (mab) was able to demand some other concession that was bargained to be equivalent.
Makes sense, ugh *bloody Proven Guilty* Fix in Proven Guilty speculates that the reason Mab isn't moving against the Red Court is because of the imbalance of her Knight being tied up at the moment *ba dum ching* which is why her forces are allayed against Summer's Borders.
I wonder if because Mab has gotten Harry and by extension all of his allies, including Molly theirs another imbalance in the forces of Summer and Winter.
An experienced wizard warrior verses Fix and Molly his trained apprentice verses Sarissa whose Mab's daughter. Seems pretty imbalanced to me.
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I dont /think/ so? The Wyldfae are a huge population compared to the seasonally aligned fae, and per WOJ the seasonal Courts operate more by political consensus within independent wyldfae interests when operating in the Southern Hemisphere, as compared to their more absolute rulership in the north. Given that I dont know that they have the sort of thaumaturgic access Id expect for them to be able to distribute Power uniformly.
As an alternative, the Power doesnt have to be /Shared/ persay, the final balance of power simply needs to equalize out. So if one Court gets a boatload of Power as a result of the partnership, the terms of the partnership could require a gift from one side to the other to redress the Balance. More or less just like Lea and Mab with the whole Athame vs Harry's Debt; the Athame upset the balance of Power (akin to any claimed Fomor Power) so the other interest (mab) was able to demand some other concession that was bargained to be equivalent.
But there is no balance between the courts. We KNOW this. There is balance between the queens, but not the courts.
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But there is no balance between the courts. We KNOW this. There is balance between the queens, but not the courts.
Can you tell me where you learned this?
I was thinking, since the queens ARE the courts they balance each other pretty well(SK when Harry actually sight gazes the queens)
And I can't remember the precise reply but there should be a woj on this in existence asking if EG is Lea's opposite and Jim saying something to the effect that it's not a role for role balance inside the courts but more of a... something? Cumulative effect?
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Can you tell me where you learned this?
I was thinking, since the queens ARE the courts they balance each other pretty well(SK when Harry actually sight gazes the queens)
And I can't remember the precise reply but there should be a woj on this in existence asking if EG is Lea's opposite and Jim saying something to the effect that it's not a role for role balance inside the courts but more of a... something? Cumulative effect?
Mother Summer more or less outright states it in Cold Days. Mab can beat Summer any day she likes, provided she's willing to forfeit reality and see herself dragged down by Titania.
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Can you tell me where you learned this?
I was thinking, since the queens ARE the courts they balance each other pretty well(SK when Harry actually sight gazes the queens)
And I can't remember the precise reply but there should be a woj on this in existence asking if EG is Lea's opposite and Jim saying something to the effect that it's not a role for role balance inside the courts but more of a... something? Cumulative effect?
No, the Queens are the Queens and they do balance one another out. But the courts are another matter.
As to where we learned about the imbalance ... at the outer gates.
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The mothers seat of power, their cottage, they both live there in unity. The other queens each have their own locations. So it is possible this would be a good location for inter court co operation and sharing of power and responsibility.
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No, the Queens are the Queens and they do balance one another out. But the courts are another matter.
As to where we learned about the imbalance ... at the outer gates.
The outer gates down count toward the balance(iirc correctly, there were summer troops up there too, as medics)When the queens summon the full extent of their power it calls out to all the fae even those unaligned directly. I calls to them as part of their power. and end the end, the board will be equally divided.
It's also directly states in SK that summer has had the edge recently, which isn't possible including the OG's forces. An another proof they aren't part of it, in PG Harry releasing Summer Fire into winter's wellspring would have emptied the wall of defenders, that we know of it did not. or else they coulda rushed the wall then and there.
Mother Summer more or less outright states it in Cold Days. Mab can beat Summer any day she likes, provided she's willing to forfeit reality and see herself dragged down by Titania.
Doesn't say anything about the courts it says '...Mab's troops outnumber yours by a jillion
So they are hers but that doesn't actually make them part of the court.[/b] Like the Marines and Navy seals are both American forces, but not of the same division. The Royal troops aren't part of the galaxy defense forces.
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The outer gates down count toward the balance(iirc correctly, there were summer troops up there too, as medics)When the queens summon the full extent of their power it calls out to all the fae even those unaligned directly. I calls to them as part of their power.
How do you figure that? Oh, okay, I'll address it in your last point.
It's also directly states in SK that summer has had the edge recently, which isn't possible including the OG's forces. An another proof they aren't part of it, in PG Harry releasing Summer Fire into winter's wellspring would have emptied the wall of defenders, that we know of it did not. or else they coulda rushed the wall then and there.
Two things.
First in the book it said that when Harry did that ALL of winter felt it and started rushing to AT to defend it. It did not say that ANY actually arrived. Further we know that the Outer Gates are a LONG way away. Just because they are rushing toward AT does not mean that they actually made the trip. Once the "attack" was over, heck days later, all the troops at the Wall would have turned around and gone back to defending the Gates.
Second, we KNOW that Harry is an unreliable Narrator. We KNOW other times when Harry was just plain wrong. This is another example.
As to the Outsiders being able to rush the wall right then and there, maybe they did. By the time we saw the Gates in Cold Days, even the Gatekeeper said that it could go for years without any action, but that it was busy then. Its ENTIRELY within the realm of possibility that there were no attackers at the Gates then.
Doesn't say anything about the courts it says So they are hers but that doesn't actually make them part of the court.[/b] Like the Marines and Navy seals are both American forces, but not of the same division. The Royal troops aren't part of the galaxy defense forces.
That makes no sense. Both the Marines and the Navy are part of the American "Court". Just like all of Winter's forces are part of the Winter Court.
Also, the Marines are actually part of the Navy.
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That makes no sense. Both the Marines and the Navy are part of the American "Court". Just like all of Winter's forces are part of the Winter Court.
Also, the Marines are actually part of the Navy
In the majority of countries, the marine force is part of the navy, but it can also be under the army like the Troupes de marine (French Marines) and Givati Brigade (Israeli Marines), or form an independent armed service branch like the United States Marine Corps and Royal Marines.
So the idea they are both part of the court and not an independent division is purely your perspective on it. Seems to me if the warriors on the wall started panicking and running even if momentarily it could quickly lead to a route before they could recover themselves. Considering nobodies super pissed at Harry for leaving the gate open I tend to doubt it. it would have been lumped in by GK in TC as things that happened with irregularity and considerable consequence because of Dresden, as he was pointing out his possible 'crimes'.
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So the idea they are both part of the court and not an independent division is purely your perspective on it. Seems to me if the warriors on the wall started panicking and running even if momentarily it could quickly lead to a route before they could recover themselves. Considering nobodies super pissed at Harry for leaving the gate open I tend to doubt it. it would have been lumped in by GK in TC as things that happened with irregularity and considerable consequence because of Dresden, as he was pointing out his possible 'crimes'.
No, it's not my perspective.
All members of the United States Military are either citizens of the United States, or swear "fealty" to the officers placed in charge of them, thus effectively making them members of the "court" that is the US.
Other countries may do it differently, but ALL of them have one thing in common ... they work for, and support the country/court they work for.
This means they ARE part of the country/court. No, they are not nobles in the court, but they are members of the country/court.
As to the defenders at the Outer Gate, as I pointed out before, per the Gatekeeper, there are long stretches of time when there is no activity. That the present (during Cold Days) action was especially fierce. Considering that the action there is taking place 6 years after the events of Proven Guilty, there is no reason to believe that there was action going on during PG. Evidence to suggest that there was very little going on at the Outer Gates is that the Gatekeeper even sent a note to Harry to investigate black magic in Chicago. If the Gates were under siege, how did the Gatekeeper have time to KNOW about the black magic, let alone send a note?
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No, it's not my perspective.
All members of the United States Military are either citizens of the United States, or swear "fealty" to the officers placed in charge of them, thus effectively making them members of the "court" that is the US.
Marines don't take chain of command from Army leaders, or navy except at the highest levels. we're talking about to different forces with two different jobs/ chains of command, not the nation as a whole. Being a citizen of 'the court' doesn't put you in the Marines and neither does being a member of the army. Joining the marines puts you in the marines.
Other countries may do it differently, but ALL of them have one thing in common ... they work for, and support the country/court they work for.
Indeed but that's not changing them being there own thing. or lumping different divisions into one.
This means they ARE part of the country/court. No, they are not nobles in the court, but they are members of the country/court.
and in it's joint task force with another rival country instead of being in the standing army to stave off that same country.
As to the defenders at the Outer Gate, as I pointed out before, per the Gatekeeper, there are long stretches of time when there is no activity. That the present (during Cold Days) action was especially fierce. Considering that the action there is taking place 6 years after the events of Proven Guilty, there is no reason to believe that there was action going on during PG.
Nor is there especially reason to believe it's dead there by that regard, which I don't agree with, but don't need to farther match with a different reasoning than yours.
Evidence to suggest that there was very little going on at the Outer Gates is that the Gatekeeper even sent a note to Harry to investigate black magic in Chicago. If the Gates were under siege, how did the Gatekeeper have time to KNOW about the black magic, let alone send a note?
;D he sifts through the future and this is specifically one of those things everybody says he got from futuretense premonition type abilities. Someone who's precognitive tends to make time, when they have the time. Or ya know, just make the time themselves.
Since we don't know when PG happened relative to actual time anyway...
Here's another one, In SK the queens are sending out summons to all in the court to join them or choose a side amongst the wyld(which i'm sure whomever was already wintery felt her call stronger and vice versa), but on the battlefield Mab's forces are not gigantic by comparison, but they were specifically summoning/calling their courts to them. and she didn't call all her forces their either.
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Marines don't take chain of command from Army leaders, or navy except at the highest levels. we're talking about to different forces with two different jobs/ chains of command, not the nation as a whole. Being a citizen of 'the court' doesn't put you in the Marines and neither does being a member of the army. Joining the marines puts you in the marines.
I'm not following you here. The Army, the Navy, and the Marines are all part of the "country" or Court. No, they are not part of each others chains of command.
What I don't you're getting is that Winter's forces are ALL part of the same chain of command. And sitting on top of that chain is Mab (with a nod to Mother Winter).
Or are you suggesting that Winter and Summer are like the Army and Marines?
;D he sifts through the future and this is specifically one of those things everybody says he got from futuretense premonition type abilities. Someone who's precognitive tends to make time, when they have the time. Or ya know, just make the time themselves.
Huh? If he's busy fighting at the wall, then he has no time.
Since we don't know when PG happened relative to actual time anyway...
Here's another one, In SK the queens are sending out summons to all in the court to join them or choose a side amongst the wyld(which i'm sure whomever was already wintery felt her call stronger and vice versa), but on the battlefield Mab's forces are not gigantic by comparison, but they were specifically summoning/calling their courts to them. and she didn't call all her forces their either.
Actually we KNOW that Mab's forces ARE Gigantic in comparison to Summer's. If she was to bring them in from the Outer Gates, neither Summer, nor our Reality could stand against her. Only Titania could take Mab down personally, but the Forces at Mab's disposal are overwhelming.
Harry just didn't know that in SK.
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I'm not following you here. The Army, the Navy, and the Marines are all part of the "country" or Court. No, they are not part of each others chains of command.
What I don't you're getting is that Winter's forces are ALL part of the same chain of command. And sitting on top of that chain is Mab (with a nod to Mother Winter).
Or are you suggesting that Winter and Summer are like the Army and Marines?
Sitting at the figure head of that chain is the president yes? but he's not either.
Huh? If he's busy fighting at the wall, then he has no time.
For someone who can literally listen to the future, and send messages back to his younger self, you'd think I wouldn't have to explain how little time he wastes vs his efficiency in dealing with it in linear details.
Actually we KNOW that Mab's forces ARE Gigantic in comparison to Summer's. If she was to bring them in from the Outer Gates, neither Summer, nor our Reality could stand against her. Only Titania could take Mab down personally, but the Forces at Mab's disposal are overwhelming.
Harry just didn't know that in SK.
Well, yep. you got me there, cause when she summoned her court and all her higher attendants the the Gate Corp just didn't receive the same commands. The concept I think I need to introduce here after examining this, is Mab doesn't just balance with Aurora. The courts balance themselves, Mab and Titania balance each other, but Mab has this extra authority that's not balance in the courts. For someone representative of literal balance, a rep for maintaining said balance itself.(*should add here she specifically is roled with balancing N's lead of the outsiders and the outsider forces) The courts represent the influence in the mortal realm itself while Mab's forces are something else(Summer and winter don't matter here. ad libbed from MS) not meant to effect said balance as it was shown between the courts in SK (largely shown in the absence of the SK) or between Mab and Titania personally. Titania's specifically their to insure Mab does not use the extra power she has been given to attempt to use it inside reality, thus effecting the balance and resulting in Titania pulling them both directly into oblivion(which offhand, i'd LOVE an explanation on the workings of that one Jim).
So it's hard to say those troops are specifically a part of the court when the balance between seasons is maintained all over the earthly realm by said court.
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Sitting at the figure head of that chain is the president yes? but he's not either.
No, no, no ... the President is not a figurehead. He IS the Commander in Chief, just like Mab is.
For someone who can literally listen to the future, and send messages back to his younger self, you'd think I wouldn't have to explain how little time he wastes vs his efficiency in dealing with it in linear details.
That is an assumption. We don't know that's the case.
Well, yep. you got me there, cause when she summoned her court and all her higher attendants the the Gate Corp just didn't receive the same commands. The concept I think I need to introduce here after examining this, is Mab doesn't just balance with Aurora. The courts balance themselves, Mab and Titania balance each other, but Mab has this extra authority that's not balance in the courts. For someone representative of literal balance, a rep for maintaining said balance itself. The courts represent the influence in the mortal realm itself while Mab's forces are something else(Summer and winter don't matter here. ad libbed from MS) not meant to effect said balance as it was shown between the courts in SK (largely shown in the absence of the SK) or between Mab and Titania personally. Titania's specifically their to insure Mab does not use the extra power she has been given to attempt to use it inside reality, thus effecting the balance and resulting in Titania pulling them both directly into oblivion(which offhand, i'd LOVE an explanation on the workings of that one Jim).
So it's hard to say those troops are specifically a part of the court when the balance between seasons is maintained all over the earthly realm by said court.
Okay, it is said in the books that the forces at the outer gate are Winter forces (with some Summer who help).
It is also said that these forces, that are Winter, outnumber summer by like a "Kagillion to one".
So, like I've been saying, there is no balance between the courts. Winter outweighs Summer by like a "Kagillion to one".
Titania is the balance against Mab in the event that she pulls the forces off of the wall to attack reality, thus promoting the current lady, who would be expected to send the forces back to the outer gates.
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It is also said in the books that Mab would have to forfeit reality in order to take down summer. Directly by Mother Summer, a far more reliable source than Harry.
The Balance between the courts is within the World. The forces on The Outside are nullenvoid for the fact that to use them against Summer would be worst than tantamount to suicide.
Finally Mother Summer also directly states that Titania and therefor Summer Court has their power to protect humanity from Mab.
Look here's the scene.
"I don't... I don't understand" I said finally "White Council intelligence always estimated Mab's troop count at around fifty thousand. There are freaking formations out there with more troops in them than that"
.......
((p332-333))
"The edge of Faerie" she said "Our outer borders. It would have taken you a decade to learn to travel out this far"
"Oh" I said "And... and it's like this"
"In essence" MotherSummer said She stared sadly out over the plain. "Did you think Mab spent all her days sitting in her chair and dealing with her backstabbing courtiers? No Sir Knight. Power has purpose"
"What happens if they get in?" I asked.
Mother Summer's lips thinned. "Everything stops. Everything"
"Holy crap" I muttered. "Does Summer have a place like this too then?"
Mother Summer shook her head. "That was never it's task. Your COuncil's estimate was fairly close counting only those troops protecting the hearts of Winter and Summer. Mab has more than that. She needs them- for this."
I felt like I'd been hit repeatedly in the head with a rubber hammer. "So... Mab's troops outnumber yours by a jillion."
Indeed"
"So she could run you over at any time"
"She could" Mother Summer said "if she were willing to forfeit reality"
I scanned the length of the wall nervously. It looked like it went on forever and there was fighting all along its length.
"You're telling me that this is why Mab has her [pwer? To... to protect the borders?"
"To protect all of you from the Outsiders, mortal"
"Then why does Titania have hers?" I asked.
"To protect all of you from Mab"
I swallowed.
"Titania cannot match Mab's forces but she can drag Mab personally into oblivion with her- and Mab knows it. Titania is the check to her power, the balance"
.....
((p 334))
"Huh" I said.
"Yes?" asked Mother Summer.
"I was sort of expecting... something else."
"Winter and Summer are twi opposing forces of ouw world" she said "But we are of our world. Here that is all that matters. And showing respect to one's elders is never unwise".
......
((p334-335))
Instead a column of carts and litters entered bearing the groaning wounded of the fighting outside, being watched over by several dozen Sidhe dressed in pure white armor marked with bold green and scarlet trim-Sidhe knights of Summer. Medics.
Ok so. Mother Summer is the direct source for several outright statements and confirmations. First purpose. "Power has Purpose", and it isn't Summer's "task" to protect the Outside.
Second Harry's use of the word and term "a jillion" gets the response "Indeed". According to the multiple online dictionaries a jillion means an indefinitely vast number or a fancifully large number. So either Mab has an Infinite number or just an as yest stated number of forces at the Outer Gates. Given Sidhe can't lie and the Mothers are required to be as vague as possible... could be argued either way. But either way regardless it doesn't count towards the Balance of the Courts because of the following statements.
"So she could run you over at any time"
"She could" Mother Summer said "If she were willing to forfeit reality"
That is an outright statement, confirmation, and fact that Mab would have to forfeit reality if she were to use her forces against Summer. There by in every practical and even technical detail, they could not be used in any conflict or measurement of the two opposing forces.
That Mab's purpose is "To protect all of you from The Outsiders, mortal"
"Then why does Titania have hers?" I asked
"To Protect all of you from Mab
So right there is a statement, confirmation and fact. Thaat Mab's purpose is to defend mortals from The Outer Gates, That Titania's is to protect mortals from Mab. Which is further clarified below.
"Titania cannot match Mab's forces, but she can drag Mab personally into oblivion with her-and Mab knows it. Titania is the check to her power, the balance"
A further outright statement, confirmation and fact that using the explicit term of "The Balance". That Mab would have to forfeit reality, let the Outsiders overrrun the Gates, before Titania would "drag Mab personally into oblivion with her".
They are a BALANCE.
Finally
"Winter and Summer are opposing forces of our world" She said. "But we are of our world"
Winter and Summer are "opposing forces" of the same world. Neither side would want to forfeit reality to the Outsiders. They are a balance. As states and confirmed by Mother Summer.
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No, no, no ... the President is not a figurehead. He IS the Commander in Chief, just like Mab is.
Figure head of military might when he himself is not a military asset, figurehead.
That is an assumption. We don't know that's the case.
Actually with the eye and his direct reference to 'listening' to the future, we do. ;p
Okay, it is said in the books that the forces at the outer gate are Winter forces (with some Summer who help).
It is also said that these forces, that are Winter, outnumber summer by like a "Kagillion to one".
So, like I've been saying, there is no balance between the courts. Winter outweighs Summer by like a "Kagillion to one".
The courts weigh each other perfectly. winter forces outweight summer forces. The courts themselves were called to battle with each other and non of this unbalanced crap came up with it. The one time the courts were specifically unbalanced it messed with all of reality via toad rain. Winter and summer courts are tied to the weather, the weather isn't in an ice age, ergo the courts are not unbalanced.
Titania is the balance against Mab in the event that she pulls the forces off of the wall to attack reality, thus promoting the current lady, who would be expected to send the forces back to the outer gates.
Doesn't make them all part of the same leverage, point of fact we know said leverage is toward the outsiders not toward anything inside Summer.
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I am thinking the fomor are made out of factions the Sihde defeated and destroyed when they rose to power. So eventually the fomor will enact their revenge.
The table is the seat of power for the courts, some how unifying the differing powers. Since the fomor are they themselves made multiple different groups, they must have something akin to the table. I suggested that to defeat the fomor, They would go after the beings of power. But what if instead they struck at this convergence of power. The knight mantle when the host dies can be recalled to the table, so I wonder if the powers of the court are similarly tied to the fomor version.
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The courts weigh each other perfectly. winter forces outweight summer forces. The courts themselves were called to battle with each other and non of this unbalanced crap came up with it. The one time the courts were specifically unbalanced it messed with all of reality via toad rain. Winter and summer courts are tied to the weather, the weather isn't in an ice age, ergo the courts are not unbalanced.
The reason for the unbalance had Nothing to do with the courts themselves. It had to do with missing power. Summer's POWER had been reduced when the power represented by the Summer Knight was hidden (in rock). That was a war over the imbalance of the power, not imbalance in the courts. Remember it was Harry who said/assumed it was an imbalance between the courts, not the power of the Queens.
Had Aurora been successful in transferring the power from Summer to Winter then Tatiana would NOT have been a check to Mab's power. Then there would have been an imbalance between not only the courts, but in the power between the Queens as well.
CON,
I'm not arguing against anything you said there. However, the fact that Mab's COULD overrun Summer's proves that there is no balance between the courts.
Now, Mab cannot do that, due to restrictions on her power. However, should Mab become Nemfected, ALL bets are off. Then she COULD order the forces off the wall and into our Farie or even our reality.
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The reason for the unbalance had Nothing to do with the courts themselves. It had to do with missing power. Summer's POWER had been reduced when the power represented by the Summer Knight was hidden (in rock).
Summer's power? what is summer? a court? That was a war over the imbalance of the power, not imbalance in the courts.
You first try to claim winter can't have troops outside the court and now your claiming summers imbalance was not of the court? That's an oxymoronic statement to your previous statement. Remember it was Harry who said/assumed it was an imbalance between the courts, not the power of the Queens.
If I had it handy.. I guess we'll ignore the fact the whole thing centered around the stone table giving power to the court? And what Mab did to the winter table directly sent the WK mantle(or just it's 'power' as was the only counter argument) through the court proving it to already be a part of the power of court itself?
Had Aurora been successful in transferring the power from Summer to Winter then Tatiana would NOT have been a check to Mab's power. Then there would have been an imbalance between not only the courts, but in the power between the Queens as well.
I see no reason why Titania couldn't still pull Mab to Oblivion, but far be it for me to argue against an unrelated theory..
CON,
I'm not arguing against anything you said there. However, the fact that Mab's COULD overrun Summer's proves that there is no balance between the courts.
Now, Mab cannot do that, due to restrictions on her power. However, should Mab become Nemfected, ALL bets are off. Then she COULD order the forces off the wall and into our Farie or even our reality.
See now here's the thing, I'm not really sure what a straw man is, but when stuff like this comes up I feel like i'm getting the old 'throw the lackey/something in the crosshairs' routine. Putting up whatever defense seems tactically sound without perspective on the overall strategy to be produced. The argument against here actually misaligns with previous arguments against my position and it's that at that point I feel it devolves into a one-up-man-ship :-/ I don't need that please.
(also why all my theories generally align, less chance of contradicting myself ;) )
*you should know, someone whose genuinely empathetic/intuitive as I appear to be can kinda read between the lines while I'm simply conversing with people across a forum as well... I KNOW I'm annoying. I know forcing someone to confront an alternative idea by logical displacement can cause mental dissonance and aggravation. I can forsee the backlash.. So sorry.
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Based on what I remember, Mab has two war fronts. The first war front is the outsider wall where say 90% of her soldiers are fighting. The second and lesser front is the border between Winter and Summer where Mab has the remaining 10%. Titania has the near totality of her forces, which are the equal of Mab's 10%, on this border as well. That is the balance of power with the mortal world being a sort of middle ground for power plays of control. That is how I am interpreting the situation.
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I don't think that Winter and Summer are currently engaged in a hot war. It's mostly a war of deterrence. Summer has amassed enough of an army to stop Mab from rolling over the world with the remainder of her forces that she can spare from the Wall.
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Summer's power? what is summer? a court?
I hope you recognize the difference between Summer court, and the power ... the magic that is summer? The same for winter.
The Court is made up of the members of the court. The people.
The Power is made up of the magic, as represented by Winter's Wellspring (for example).
If you lump them together then there can be much confusion.
You first try to claim winter can't have troops outside the court and now your claiming summers imbalance was not of the court? That's an oxymoronic statement to your previous statement.
I never claimed that winters troops were not part of the court. You claimed that those troops at the Outer Gates were not part of the court. I've said from the beginning that they WERE/ARE part of the court, and that is why there is no balance between the courts.
The balance exists between the POWER that each of the Queens can wield, separate from their armies. Because they are separate.
If I had it handy.. I guess we'll ignore the fact the whole thing centered around the stone table giving power to the court? And what Mab did to the winter table directly sent the WK mantle(or just it's 'power' as was the only counter argument) through the court proving it to already be a part of the power of court itself?I see no reason why Titania couldn't still pull Mab to Oblivion, but far be it for me to argue against an unrelated theory..
Well, mostly because in Summer Knight, it was the POWER of the summer knight that would have been added to the Power of Winter, not the power of the Winter knight, which, as you say, is already part of Winter's power.
Based on what I remember, Mab has two war fronts. The first war front is the outsider wall where say 90% of her soldiers are fighting. The second and lesser front is the border between Winter and Summer where Mab has the remaining 10%. Titania has the near totality of her forces, which are the equal of Mab's 10%, on this border as well. That is the balance of power with the mortal world being a sort of middle ground for power plays of control. That is how I am interpreting the situation.
THIS!! From a troops perspective.
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Well, mostly because in Summer Knight, it was the POWER of the summer knight that would have been added to the Power of Winter, not the power of the Winter knight, which, as you say, is already part of Winter's power.
Yep directly to the summer court, reread what I said. Power, from winter(doesn't matter if the thing itsef goes) into summer court by usage of the stone table. Since it's directly stated by lea it gives power unto the court. Your ignoring key words and descriptions, the fact 'summer has had the edge' trhese last few decades', ect. Who cares if it's raw power if it ignores the very statement it goes to the court.(which lack of manifestation by the W/k when Mab did it proves blood to be a valid conduit, not that I need to point that out here)
Due to the frustration of typing with a caste(just broke my hand yesterday) and the fact I have very clearly stated a logical reply to this already. I'm done here. You ARW straw manning now... 2wice in a row with tangents already addressed, previously bey your own contradictory statement.
Let me assure you, I know more about the Dresden file than anyone but Jim himself and I can readily prove it at any given time. So one upping me won't negate who and what I am. :)