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The Dresden Files => DF Spoilers => DF Reference Collection => Topic started by: Cenphx on December 20, 2012, 12:10:27 AM

Title: Connections-Hexenwolf belts, Love Hurt belts, Victor Sells, Blood Rites curse
Post by: Cenphx on December 20, 2012, 12:10:27 AM
I started pulling on the thread of my certainty that the love inducing seatbelts in Love Hurts were created by the same person as whoever made the hexenwolf belts in Fool Moon. There has been a lot of discussion about certain connections which exist in the early books of the series. So this is my attempt to lay out those connections and consider where this information leads us. I read about a million posts and threads which touched on parts of these topics and some ideas I lifted directly from others, so let me give some credit here to: Griffyn612; Wyltok; Phariah; neurovore; knnn; Elegast; KurtinStGeorge; Quantus. Considering my citations were made without rereading each book, there may be more or better cites for specific propositions than what I currently have. I’ll update with anything better as it comes along. Also, I am aware that there are other connections I am not using or other books in which a lot of these same connections occur (most specifically, Grave Peril), but the project was massive as is and so I kept it to the books with the best connections, in my judgment.

I will specifically be looking at the events of Storm Front, Fool Moon, Blood Rites and Love Hurts. This first thread will lay out the connections themselves. I am posting a separate thread wherein I consider the suspects the board has considered the most likely responsible for these events. I will also present my own suspicions in that thread, though I think my work can rule out suspects but does not provide enough evidence to conclusively determine an actual suspect. Enough stalling…here we go:

Who gave the Hexenwulf belts to the FBI agents in Fool Moon?
Absolute connection acknowledged

Vending machine magic – energy in, magic result out

Item given out which allows non magical person to cause magic to occur

Addictive nature of item (beyond the simple addictiveness of use of dark magic?)

Clues?

Who taught LeBlanc and created the love inducing seatbelts in Love Hurts?
Absolute connection acknowledged in book - between Love Hurt belts and hexenwulf belts
Vending machine magic – energy in, magic result out

Teaching magic to lesser practitioner/nonmagic person

Item given out which allows non magical person to cause magic to occur
Addictive nature of item beyond the simple addictiveness of use of dark magic

Clues?


Who recruited and trained Victor Sells to use the heartripping/bloodline curse and to create the ThreeEye potion?
Teaching magic to lesser practitioner/nonmagic person
Ritual magic – energy in, magic result out

Item given out which allows non magical person to cause magic to occur
Addictive nature of item beyond the simple addictiveness of use of dark magic
Absolute connection acknowledged in book


Clues?

Blood Rites-entropy ritual/curse used by Lord Raith and pornstar sorceresses
Vending machine ritual magic – energy in, magic result out

Teaching magic to lesser practitioner/nonmagic person

Clues?

Summary of Connections

Title: Re: Connections-Hexenwolf belts, Love Hurt belts, Victor Sells, Blood Rites curse
Post by: GrandPanjandrum on December 20, 2012, 12:58:50 AM
First of all...well done on all the research and outlining.  It takes a while to digest it all...but well done.  You've pointed out a number of things I've overlooked.  Not the least of which is that someone used a talisman on the hexenbelts.  Until Cold Days, I always assumed that the Erlking hooked up the FBI guys.  Then, in Cold Days, the Erlking seemed to be solid and a pal of Kringle's (and ultimately a confidante of Harry's). 

So, someone stole something magical from him to infuse the belts. 
Title: Re: Connections-Hexenwolf belts, Love Hurt belts, Victor Sells, Blood Rites curse
Post by: Cenphx on December 20, 2012, 01:54:40 AM
Thanks. It definitely is a lot of info. I thought it would take me a day or two to put together. Instead, its been about a week and a half of obsessiveness. 

After you've had time for it to marinate, so to speak, let me know if you think these events are all connected. On its face, it doesn't seem like they should be this tightly woven together, but then when you get down into the details, it seems inescapable. Which really limits how many people can be considered a suspect.

Which is why I don't think the Erlking is viable anymore--he has no connection to the other events.
Title: Re: Connections-Hexenwolf belts, Love Hurt belts, Victor Sells, Blood Rites curse
Post by: madness on December 20, 2012, 03:01:10 AM
I don't think that the Blood Rites (Raith/HWWB) magic fits in.  The rest of it all ties together though.

The two common themes are the Red Court and people using magic that they have been given by someone else.

I don't know if the source of the black magic was giving it out to multiple parties (Bianca, LeBlanc, Sells, Denton, Kravos, etc.) or if they were giving it all to the Red Court and allowing the Red Court to spread the power to proxies of their own.

You could make a pretty good argument that the mysterious magic in the first few novels is the result of Bianca/Red Court using proxies to remove enemies (Sells targeted Marcone originally, Denton targeted Marcone and then was pointed at Harry, LeBlanc was targeting the White Court, Kravos was aimed right at Harry).
Title: Re: Connections-Hexenwolf belts, Love Hurt belts, Victor Sells, Blood Rites curse
Post by: madness on December 20, 2012, 03:06:05 AM
I never liked the idea that the Erlking was behind the belts simply because he is a hunter spirit.  There are tons of other hunter spirits in the mythologies that the Erlking's names/mantles come from.

We know that Mavra was involved and we know that Cowl is involved with several of the players so they are two most likely suspects, IMO.

If I had to guess though I would say that Mavra is the far more likely suspect.  If she is a disguised Black Court Elder (or has grown to similar power) it makes it a whole lot easier to explain how the wide range of powers, enchantments and spells are available - even a wizard of Cowl's caliber would be hard pressed to have that wide of a knowledge base and enough power to teach/share/spread so much of his magic and knowledge.

My grand unified theory guess is this:

Mavra was the power (heavy duty magical backer) behind Lord Raith's original cabal (Lord Raith, Arianna, Maggie, Dumorne).  When Lord Raith got castrated by Maggie then Mavra decided to use the Red Court as the face of her empire.
Title: Re: Connections-Hexenwolf belts, Love Hurt belts, Victor Sells, Blood Rites curse
Post by: Cyberchihuahua on December 20, 2012, 03:38:25 AM
Well, certain recent events in the books and theories in the forums have laid out the possibility that Nemesis is in the council to some degree. We have also seen that The Erlking is at least willing to hunt outsiders, if he is not actively engaged in fighting the enemy. So he may have given the belts to the FBI agents to aid them in hunting out the agents of Nemesis, and warned them about Harry because he was an unknown quantity, aside from being a WC agent.
Title: Re: Connections-Hexenwolf belts, Love Hurt belts, Victor Sells, Blood Rites curs
Post by: wizard nelson on December 20, 2012, 04:48:42 AM
well... and i'm aware most won't agree so no need to naysay... the comment about only 3 WC being able to pull it off and the nature of the hexxenbelts specifically has always pointed to injun joe in my mind. him being nemesis infected would be parallel to a woj where he says some people believed to be bad are good and vise versa. what really cements it though is the nature of betrayal. it has to be someone close to you and someone you wholehearted believe is on the level injun joe is both. him being ebs closest ally.
Title: Re: Connections-Hexenwolf belts, Love Hurt belts, Victor Sells, Blood Rites curs
Post by: Cenphx on December 20, 2012, 05:01:20 AM
Though I made a WAG in the other half of this thread that the culprit is Elaine or more likely Luccio, the most concrete parts of the theory is that it is a very powerful WC wizard, so Injun Joe could fit. I found some clues that I think point to Luccio more than anyone, but I dont think your guess is crazy at all.
Title: Re: Connections-Hexenwolf belts, Love Hurt belts, Victor Sells, Blood Rites curs
Post by: wizard nelson on December 20, 2012, 05:17:32 AM
luccio already had her bit being mind controlled though. when the reds attacked during DB it was said someone from within revealed their current position, granted peabody had another ally within the council but this just says to me more than one person is a traitor. i've always thought it was cristo. so he hired shagnasty, i would attribute that to joe but woj said the hiring one has been mentioned but not seen.
Title: Re: Connections-Hexenwolf belts, Love Hurt belts, Victor Sells, Blood Rites curs
Post by: madness on December 20, 2012, 05:19:12 AM
Though I made a WAG in the other half of this thread that the culprit is Elaine or more likely Luccio, the most concrete parts of the theory is that it is a very powerful WC wizard, so Injun Joe could fit. I found some clues that I think point to Luccio more than anyone, but I dont think your guess is crazy at all.

Luccio and Klaus are the only top-notch enchanters that get much specific mention for those skills.  If anyone WC could make the belts it would probably be them.

I don't think that it is either of them (I don't think that it is WC wizard behind the belts) but they would be the likely candidates of people we know about.
Title: Re: Connections-Hexenwolf belts, Love Hurt belts, Victor Sells, Blood Rites curse
Post by: 123456789blaaa on December 20, 2012, 09:15:45 AM
Fantastic work Cenphx  ;D.

I think that the belts (both types) come from the Circle. I think that Cowl was the person who made the belts and was the person who taught LeBlanc. It has been shown that Cowl is super powerfull (possibly SC level if he is Simon) so he would probably be able to create the belts. Remember that the Circle has shown many connections with the red court (and if Simon is Cowl than something more is that Simon was the White Council expert on vampires and the closest to them). Remember that Harry specifically says that the heart bursting curse couldn't be done by RC vamps. I would assume that you need to able to do a heart bursting curse to teach it too someone thus I believe that Cowl (who I think is Simon) taught it to Victor Sells and also taught him magic in general. Cowl being responsible for the events of the first two books also fits with Jim being a self admitted "lazy writer".

I fully admit that the above beliefs are shaky and full of holes.  I'm also very tired right now so the above may not make much sense. I'm just throwing it out here.

EDIT: As Cenphx nicely pointed out in another thread:

Quote
in DB when Cowl first meets Harry outside of Bock Ordered Books he says something like, “I want to see what has the Wardens so nervous.”  This suggests Cowl wasn't around in SF or FM.  He does not have the knowledge of Harry which would be shared by whoever was involved with the Hexenwolves or Victor Sells.
 

Disregard the entire Cowl speculation part of my post.

The white court parts of the theory seem kind of disconnected and weird until you remember that [CD Spoilers]
(click to show/hide)
and that Lord Raiths magic protection is probably either provided by an Outsider we haven't seen yet or HWWB.   
Title: Re: Connections-Hexenwolf belts, Love Hurt belts, Victor Sells, Blood Rites curse
Post by: Elegast on December 20, 2012, 11:05:07 AM
Summary of Connections

  • Absolute connection acknowledged in book
    • Between Love Hurt belts and hexenwulf belts
    • Between heart ripping curse/spell/ritual of Sells in SF and the Red Court in Changes
  • Item given out which allows non magical person to cause magic to occur
    • Belt (FM)
    • Belt ( LH)
    • ThreeEye potion (SF)
  • Vending machine ritual magic – energy in, magic result out
    • Belt (FM)
    • Belt ( LH)
    • Entropy curse ritual (BR)
  • Addictive nature of item beyond the simple addictiveness of use of dark magic
    • Belt (FM)
    • Belt (LH)
    • ThreeEye potion (SF)
  • Teaching magic to lesser practitioner/nonmagic person
    • Baroness LeBlanc (LH) (taught by ?)
    • Victor Sells (SF) (taught by ?)
    • Madge and other porn star sorceresses (BR) (taught by Lord Raith?)


    Therefore, the connection between LH and FM appears conclusive, LH = FM, as does their connection to SF, such that LH=FM=SF. While the number of connections to between BR and the others is not as many, the specific language to describe the magic is so precise and distinctive, that for purposes of theorizing, I am willing to connect BR as well.

    So we have LH=FM=SF=BR.

    I will use these connections to consider and rule out possible suspects in the next thread.


Great job.

What becomes clearer thx to your work, is that we have only two absolute connection: the belts and the curse, and that both of them involve the Red Court.
Title: Re: Connections-Hexenwolf belts, Love Hurt belts, Victor Sells, Blood Rites curs
Post by: Cenphx on December 20, 2012, 03:33:20 PM
Thx for the compliments, guys! It got to the point where I woke up in the morning and my first thoughts were of this thread.    I know the BR connection is weaker than the rest. It certainly shouldnt be considered one of absolutely proven parts, but the language about how the magic works is so unique and distinctive and (like 12345678blaaa pointed out) the likelihood that LR was helped/given magic by someone who could summon outsiders (mortal wizard) that im willing to accept BR as part of the pattern. But I get why other people are not.
Title: Re: Connections-Hexenwolf belts, Love Hurt belts, Victor Sells, Blood Rites curs
Post by: 123456789blaaa on December 20, 2012, 03:47:12 PM
Thx for the compliments, guys! It got to the point where I woke up in the morning and my first thoughts were of this thread.    I know the BR connection is weaker than the rest. It certainly shouldnt be considered one of absolutely proven parts, but the language about how the magic works is so unique and distinctive and (like 12345678blaaa pointed out) the likelihood that LR was helped/given magic by someone who could summon outsiders (mortal wizard) that im willing to accept BR as part of the pattern. But I get why other people are not.

Please, call me Count  :). It probably feels less stupid to type and is shorter to boot.

Was Lord Raith a practitioner? I don't recall any mention of it in the books.
Title: Re: Connections-Hexenwolf belts, Love Hurt belts, Victor Sells, Blood Rites curs
Post by: Cenphx on December 20, 2012, 03:54:07 PM
I dont think we see LR do any magic anywhere or are told that he can. He does seem to have a habit of recruiting female practitioners to do the work. Given that he used the same entropy curse in BR that he used against Harry's mom some 30+ years before, he had to have a dif woman doing the magic besides Madge. So I concluded he is teaching or giving the entropy spell to these women, but he didnt develop it himself. Someone gave it to him.
Title: Re: Connections-Hexenwolf belts, Love Hurt belts, Victor Sells, Blood Rites curs
Post by: wizard nelson on December 20, 2012, 04:16:32 PM
its that big collection of books thomas mentioned. yea LR is probably the teacher of the lesser talents like victor. but both sets of belts took a subtle and talented hand to make.
Title: Re: Connections-Hexenwolf belts, Love Hurt belts, Victor Sells, Blood Rites curs
Post by: 123456789blaaa on December 22, 2012, 06:51:48 AM
its that big collection of books thomas mentioned. yea LR is probably the teacher of the lesser talents like victor. but both sets of belts took a subtle and talented hand to make.

How could LR teach people like Victor if he wasn't a practitioner?
Title: Re: Connections-Hexenwolf belts, Love Hurt belts, Victor Sells, Blood Rites curs
Post by: wizard nelson on December 22, 2012, 12:19:55 PM
How could LR teach people like Victor if he wasn't a practitioner?
not in the literal way, just enterduce them to it... why would raith keep a collection of books he can't use? :o obviously vicky didn't have alot of direct teaching cause he had such huge gaps in his basic knowledge.
Title: Re: Connections-Hexenwolf belts, Love Hurt belts, Victor Sells, Blood Rites curs
Post by: Ms Duck on December 22, 2012, 02:31:56 PM
not in the literal way, just enterduce them to it... why would raith keep a collection of books he can't use? :o obviously vicky didn't have alot of direct teaching cause he had such huge gaps in his basic knowledge.

bet ya a donut they were maggie sr's
Title: Re: Connections-Hexenwolf belts, Love Hurt belts, Victor Sells, Blood Rites curs
Post by: wizard nelson on December 22, 2012, 02:35:12 PM
bet ya a donut they were maggie sr's
mmm ??? how about a whopper and a donut for desert? :o ;)
Title: Re: Connections-Hexenwolf belts, Love Hurt belts, Victor Sells, Blood Rites curs
Post by: kytheros on December 22, 2012, 02:40:02 PM
bet ya a donut they were maggie sr's
Some of them maybe .. but I think she'd've tried to get rid of as many of his books as she could have, or keep them from him in some way.  Some of them may also be books of information that he compelled out of her. But some (perhaps many) of them likely predate her taking up with Raith. Dude's old. Some centuries at minimum. Odds are pretty good he's picked up various texts along the way.
Title: Re: Connections-Hexenwolf belts, Love Hurt belts, Victor Sells, Blood Rites curs
Post by: wizard nelson on December 22, 2012, 02:44:38 PM
Some of them maybe .. but I think she'd've tried to get rid of as many of his books as she could have, or keep them from him in some way.  Some of them may also be books of information that he compelled out of her. But some (perhaps many) of them likely predate her taking up with Raith. Dude's old. Some centuries at minimum. Odds are pretty good he's picked up various texts along the way.
yea, hence i add the whopper to sweeten my victory ;D shhh! don't ruin it or i'll make kytheros burgers instead >:(
Title: Re: Connections-Hexenwolf belts, Love Hurt belts, Victor Sells, Blood Rites curse
Post by: Cenphx on December 22, 2012, 10:43:11 PM
It seems odd to me that Lord Raith is allowed to keep these books. Its not a secret that he has them. I wonder why no one from the oblivion wars or the WC has destroyed them.
Title: Re: Connections-Hexenwolf belts, Love Hurt belts, Victor Sells, Blood Rites curse
Post by: Ms Duck on December 22, 2012, 10:49:47 PM
It seems odd to me that Lord Raith is allowed to keep these books. Its not a secret that he has them. I wonder why no one from the oblivion wars or the WC has destroyed them.

because prior to maggies last spell, he scared the heck out of all those people?
Title: Re: Connections-Hexenwolf belts, Love Hurt belts, Victor Sells, Blood Rites curse
Post by: Cenphx on December 22, 2012, 10:56:52 PM
because prior to maggies last spell, he scared the heck out of all those people?
Yeah, agreed. Plus I'm sure it would have created a diplomatic headache for anyone to be caught acting against the head of the WCV. I wonder if, now that Lara is in charge, if the politician in her would keep the books for the potential power or whether the venator in her would destroy the ones that relate to targets of the Oblivion War...

All these secret books everywhere makes my fingers itch. I can't believe Harry hasn't ask Ebenezar if he could read Merlin's journals. I can't believe Thomas hasn't snuck a peak at LR's books.

After all, "no harm ever came from reading a book".  ;D
Title: Re: Connections-Hexenwolf belts, Love Hurt belts, Victor Sells, Blood Rites curse
Post by: Ms Duck on December 23, 2012, 12:58:16 AM
Yeah, agreed. Plus I'm sure it would have created a diplomatic headache for anyone to be caught acting against the head of the WCV. I wonder if, now that Lara is in charge, if the politician in her would keep the books for the potential power or whether the venator in her would destroy the ones that relate to targets of the Oblivion War...

All these secret books everywhere makes my fingers itch. I can't believe Harry hasn't ask Ebenezar if he could read Merlin's journals. I can't believe Thomas hasn't snuck a peak at LR's books.

After all, "no harm ever came from reading a book".  ;D

(http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-ll_OEqE9yOI/TuArU112cVI/AAAAAAAAAW0/ff5gKa10Owc/s320/necronomicon-evildead.jpg)
Title: Re: Connections-Hexenwolf belts, Love Hurt belts, Victor Sells, Blood Rites curs
Post by: wizard nelson on December 23, 2012, 02:22:50 AM
is lara a participant in the oblivion war? i know thomas is but i don't recall lara in that story.
Title: Re: Connections-Hexenwolf belts, Love Hurt belts, Victor Sells, Blood Rites curse
Post by: Ben de Wal on December 23, 2012, 02:29:26 AM
 she   sent thomas so she a step up from him :P