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The Dresden Files => DF Spoilers => Topic started by: SerScot on July 13, 2018, 03:42:06 PM
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Really. What if a WC vampire were contained and not allowed to feed? Shouldn’t it eventually die leaving just a human?
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okay here it the problem thomas trying to do that for how long. the only way i think some one get rid of white court demon is i think let some other spiritual supernatural beat the demon and destroy it.
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Yeah, but depending on how much of a reserve its got, it can take 40 years or more.
And also, as the demon gets more and more hungry, it'll drive the host crazy.
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Really. What if a WC vampire were contained and not allowed to feed? Shouldn’t it eventually die leaving just a human?
It would probably consume the host trying to stay alive, it is basically a parasite, not a symbiont.
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Lea might know:
“What did you do to them?”
“I lulled their predator spirit to sleep,” she said calmly. “Poor lambs. They didn’t realize how much strength they drew from it. Mayhap this will prove a useful lesson.”
I frowned at that. “You mean . . . the vampire part of them?”
“Of course.”
I sat there for a moment, stunned.
If the vampire infection within half vampires like Susan and Martin could be enchanted to sleep, then it was presumably possible to do other things to it as well. Suppress it, maybe permanently.
It might even be possible to destroy it.
I felt a door in my mind open upon a hope I had shut away a long time ago.
Maybe I could save them both.
“I . . .” I shook my head. “I searched for a way to . . . I spent more than a . . .” I shook my head harder. “I spent more than a year trying to find a way to . . .” I looked at my godmother. “How? How did you do it?”
She looked back at me, her lips curled into something that wasn’t precisely a smile. “Oh, sweet child. Information of that sort is treasure indeed. What have you to trade for such a precious gem of knowledge?”
A white court hunger demon is far more integrated with the host than a red one so maybe it is not possible but if it is Lea knows.
Do you have a firstborn to trade?
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I don't think you could starve the WC demon to death. I think the host would die first, and the demon would return to the nevernever or the Outside or wherever they originate from.
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I don't think you could starve the WC demon to death. I think the host would die first, and the demon would return to the nevernever or the Outside or wherever they originate from.
Shagnasty tried it. If you starve the demon it will at some point simply take over and start hunting.
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Shagnasty tried it. If you starve the demon it will at some point simply take over and start hunting.
That’s why I suggested this happen while the White Court vamp is contained so that they cannot hunt.
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That’s why I suggested this happen while the White Court vamp is contained so that they cannot hunt.
Pain, madness and death I suppose. Both of them. The hunger is too integrated to see as a totally seperated thing.
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Like all parasites apparently the Hunger demon goes through stages in it's development... We learn in Blood Rite that if the host finds true love before having killed someone during the sex act, the demon can be burned out or killed. After that, as we've seen with Thomas, even with true love he cannot kill his demon. So I'd say yes, it is possible, but very difficult because it is all about timing and finding one's true love isn't an easy thing.
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With enough power it ought to be possible. But the problem would be finding enough power in a way that isn't lethal to the human host. (There's a WOJ that Mab could remove the demon from Thomas, but it would basically destroy him since Mab isn't that gentle.)
I don't think starvation would do it though. I think you'd need either a being of "force of nature"/cosmic level power (like a Faerie Queen or Mother, a major/relatively undiminished god, an angel or Archangel, etc.) or a really enormously supercharged thaumaturgical spell (like the Bloodline Curse that wiped out the Red Court and removed the infection from the Infected... maybe not quite so huge if you're just trying to do it to one person, but I think it's still way more than even a powerful wizard is likely to be able to manage, since Harry couldn't find a way to cure Susan in months of research between GP and SK).
And most entities powerful enough to do it have cosmic constraints keeping them from using their power freely.
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With enough power it ought to be possible. But the problem would be finding enough power in a way that isn't lethal to the human host. (There's a WOJ that Mab could remove the demon from Thomas, but it would basically destroy him since Mab isn't that gentle.)
I don't think that the problem is that Mab isn't gentle, so much as that there's no sharp dividing line where Thomas Raith, human being, stops, and the Hunger begins, they blende into each other and are sort of one thing. If Mab rips out the Hunger, she would take a lot of Thomas with it because they are merged. Trying to be gentle, I suspect, would just produce the same results more slowly.
I think you might compare it to the way a grafted plant merges, only the graft line is all over the plant.
Before that first feeding, I think the two are mostly separate, at that point Mab could probably rip the Hunger out with a minimum of harm. After that first feeding, I think things are different.
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It would probably consume the host trying to stay alive, it is basically a parasite, not a symbiont.
Most symbiotic relations break down if you put that much stress on it.
If you look at it from a biological point of view they are not just symbiots, they are on the verge of becoming one species.
the replication is bound to the replication of the host in such a way that the interests of the host and the hunger alaign for a great deal. Compared to that a red court vampire is the real parasite. It sterilises the host and spreads via infection.
A nice SF about parasites and symbiots is Harry Harrison's Planet of the damned.
http://www.gutenberg.org/ebooks/21873
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Most symbiotic relations break down if you put that much stress on it.
If you look at it from a biological point of view they are not just symbiots, they are on the verge of becoming one species.
the replication is bound to the replication of the host in such a way that the interests of the host and the hunger alaign for a great deal. Compared to that a red court vampire is the real parasite. It sterilises the host and spreads via infection.
A nice SF about parasites and symbiots is Harry Harrison's Planet of the damned.
http://www.gutenberg.org/ebooks/21873
Sorry but we have no proof of either of those, we know getting bit does not automatically infect, so a blood gift or however(since we never see how they force the half transformation) isn't provable to be any viral/bacterial disease. Nor can they be for sure sterile when The chick Harry killed Dueling in CH was the daughter of the King. Though possible from some point when he wasn't a vampire... unless we see proof the king was ever not what he is I'd hardly believe it.
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Sorry but we have no proof of either of those, we know getting bit does not automatically infect, so a blood gift or however(since we never see how they force the half transformation) isn't provable to be any viral/bacterial disease. Nor can they be for sure sterile when The chick Harry killed Dueling in CH was the daughter of the King. Though possible from some point when he wasn't a vampire... unless we see proof the king was ever not what he is I'd hardly believe it.
It is obviously not a bacterie or a virus, we are talking magic here. IT is a spiritual infection Just like nemesis is a spiritual infection.
Blood is not enough to carry it over but ask Susan about it.
The vampires see those who they infected and turned (taken over) as their children, that was mentioned several times. Normal parent child relations are not mentioned.
Another word for spiritual infection is of course possession though the relation between the resident spirit and the invading one does not have to be that straightforward and there all the different parasite and symbiotic possibilities appear.
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It is obviously not a bacterie or a virus, we are talking magic here. IT is a spiritual infection Just like nemesis is a spiritual infection.
But not a parasite then, an infection, a disease?
Blood is not enough to carry it over but ask Susan about it.
Now what kind of advice is that lol? Have YOU asked her?
The vampires see those who they infected and turned (taken over) as their children, that was mentioned several times. Normal parent child relations are not mentioned.
Another word for spiritual infection is of course possession though the relation between the resident spirit and the invading one does not have to be that straightforward and there all the different parasite and symbiotic possibilities appear.
and I say a infectious disease which changes the host into a new form isn't the same as a parasite that attaches itself to you and more or less want's to supplant you entirely. The Reds are not the inhuman replacements the Blacks are, the Hunger fuses to and changes them, in that way it was originally more symbiotic, but I doubt it has any differential from the transformed vampire.... Mmm I think in that way the Full Ramp is the result of what by Bob might be described as 'the afterlife' of spirit and soul fusing into a new form, except it somehow co-opts the one murdered for the transformation instead. Letting the original victim continue to be considered part of the mortal plane.. A parasite would rightfully consume the host first and not look for another to use as the catalyst.
*however, nothing about Arianna screamed transformed bloodline, Cause then calling her daughter at all is oxymoronic, all the tier lower than him would be his primary children, and ergo applicable somewhere in story to be mentioned, not some upstart who hadn't made it that far yet. She was young for a monster.
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But not a parasite then, an infection, a disease?
You can be infected with a parasite. And what it is depends also on how you look at it.
Malaria for example is an ilness and you get infected when a musquito bites you but what enters your blood stream is a parasite.
Language is a wonder sometimes.
Now what kind of advice is that lol? Have YOU asked her?
No but I have read a lot about her so I can imagine what she would say.
and I say a infectious disease
An infectuous disease is a disease that can infect, that spread via infection.
which changes the host into a new form
An illness can have so many symptoms...
isn't the same as a parasite that attaches itself to you and more or less want's to supplant you entirely.
Most parasites just want to live their lives feeding on yoy. You dying is a side effect.
The Reds are not the inhuman replacements the Blacks are, the Hunger fuses to and changes them, in that way it was originally more symbiotic,
I don't see it that way because it sterilizes the host and spreads not horizontally by generation but vertically. If you view procreation as essential human activity then the reds have lost what makes them human.
but I doubt it has any differential from the transformed vampire.... Mmm I think in that way the Full Ramp is the result of what by Bob might be described as 'the afterlife' of spirit and soul fusing into a new form, except it somehow co-opts the one murdered for the transformation instead. Letting the original victim continue to be considered part of the mortal plane.. A parasite would rightfully consume the host first and not look for another to use as the catalyst.
*however, nothing about Arianna screamed transformed bloodline, Cause then calling her daughter at all is oxymoronic, all the tier lower than him would be his primary children, and ergo applicable somewhere in story to be mentioned, not some upstart who hadn't made it that far yet. She was young for a monster.
The bloodline curse actually proves it. The vampire hosts were not related with each other at least not all of them but they are all spiritually related through the infection and transformation.
The vampire part in the half vampires was also related, not the human part. the bloodline curse followed infection not birth when used on vampires.
That is how red court vampirism spreads so it is logical to call those you turn and infect your children, spiritually they are. Much more than your human children you might have had before your infection and later turning.
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I don't see the Red Court as a spiritual infection. When they rip their human flesh off to attack it pretty much shows that their human parts are just suits. They aren't human anymore. The essence of the human remains but they are much more vampire than human... They are more like monsters with nice human suits. The White Court is more like a spiritual infection. Their bodies are basically human that are augmented with increased capabilities.
I'd say the Red's are more like an virus that rewrites your DNA, and mutates your entire body into something else. I'd say the Blood Line curse was good evidence of this. The humans they once were are not related but the vampire side came from a single source, and the rewriting of their DNA made them all related. The White Court is more like a parasite that is attached to your spirit from the NeverNever.
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You can be infected with a parasite. And what it is depends also on how you look at it.
Malaria for example is an ilness and you get infected when a musquito bites you but what enters your blood stream is a parasite.
Language is a wonder sometimes.No but I have read a lot about her so I can imagine what she would say.
So your expert witness is any greater than mine? this isn't a standpoint, and her opinion isn't even an issue to the facts anyway.... Never would be.
An infectuous disease is a disease that can infect, that spread via infection.An illness can have so many symptoms...Most parasites just want to live their lives feeding on yoy. You dying is a side effect. I don't see it that way because it sterilizes the host and spreads not horizontally by generation but vertically.
No citable proof. Indeed, why wouldn't it then sterilize with the initial infection making Maggie an impossibility? Saying the bats can't successfully mate with a human is entirely different from being able to propagate within a species anyway... and nothing I know of says this. If you view procreation as essential human activity then the reds have lost what makes them human.The bloodline curse actually proves it. The vampire hosts were not related with each other at least not all of them but they are all spiritually related through the infection and transformation.
Some may have been? So they could mate but it's negligible somehow now?
The vampire part in the half vampires was also related, not the human part. the bloodline curse followed infection not birth when used on vampires.
Oh yes, and despite the fact the halves only had the spirit of a demon, and the reds transformed entirely it still targeted both, by blood. This is more proof towards it being a full transformation, and in no way says they can't mate... however you can't say it didn't follow the 'birthed' because that's exactly how it was put, and that again, doesn't address if they had natural births or how those familial relations effect the concurrent effect of using a bloodline curse upon the reds.
That is how red court vampirism spreads so it is logical to call those you turn and infect your children, spiritually they are. Much more than your human children you might have had before your infection and later turning.
And still says nothing on proving Reds cannot mate or Ariana was not his biological daughter... doesn't really refute the point, Ramps are a contagion not a parasitic(or symbiotic) creature... well THEY are a parasitic creature but not internally.
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and I say a infectious disease which changes the host into a new form isn't the same as a parasite that attaches itself to you and more or less want's to supplant you entirely. The Reds are not the inhuman replacements the Blacks are, the Hunger fuses to and changes them, in that way it was originally more symbiotic, but I doubt it has any differential from the transformed vampire.... Mmm I think in that way the Full Ramp is the result of what by Bob might be described as 'the afterlife' of spirit and soul fusing into a new form, except it somehow co-opts the one murdered for the transformation instead. Letting the original victim continue to be considered part of the mortal plane..
I think that's about right. But I don't think it's mutually exclusive with the parasite analogy... although a Rampire infection is, IMO, technically more equivalent to a parasitoid (fatal to host... like a caterpillar-eating wasp larva, or the xenomorphs from the Alien series). The infection grows within the human host, and at "maturity" (when the infected makes their first fatal feeding) it matures into an adult Rampire, consuming the human host and using its material (likely both physical matter and spiritual energy) to build its new full-Rampire form.
*however, nothing about Arianna screamed transformed bloodline, Cause then calling her daughter at all is oxymoronic, all the tier lower than him would be his primary children, and ergo applicable somewhere in story to be mentioned, not some upstart who hadn't made it that far yet. She was young for a monster.
Rampire parent-child relations have to be infection/turning-based, not conventional reproduction-based, otherwise the Bloodline Curse wouldn't have worked with Susan... Susan wasn't the biological child of any Rampire. And the chain went from Susan to her infection-parent Bianca, to hers (Ortega), to his (Arianna), to the Red King.
Arianna was directly turned by the Red King... so were the Lords of Outer Night (the ones one tier below him). There just weren't enough positions on the Lords of Outer Night for all his direct infection-offspring.
(And I don't think there is any reason to think Arianna is young as Rampires go... Luccio calls her older than writing. The RK is said somewhere, maybe Proven Guilty, to be 4000 years old. Technically that's inconsistent, as writing is more than 4000 years old, but if Luccio just means writing in the New World/Mesoamerica, which is likely, Arianna is still 2500+. There's no reason she couldn't have been turned in the Red King's early years as a vampire... we don't even know that positions on the Lords of Outer Night were given out based on age, Arianna might be just as old as them but lost out because of lesser power or the Red King's whims or something else.)
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I don't think that the problem is that Mab isn't gentle, so much as that there's no sharp dividing line where Thomas Raith, human being, stops, and the Hunger begins, they blende into each other and are sort of one thing. If Mab rips out the Hunger, she would take a lot of Thomas with it because they are merged. Trying to be gentle, I suspect, would just produce the same results more slowly.
The WoJ specifically says it's because Mab isn't gentle, though.
I don't think the two are that closely merged, it appears that the Hunger can take over in situations of extreme "starvation", against the will of the human-host.
And there's a comment in Changes that the Bloodline Curse would probably kill the human part of Thomas, leaving his Hunger Demon trapped in a "vegetable" empty-shell/mindless body (presumably the Hunger could keep the body alive at least temporarily until it ran out of energy, but the human soul & mind would be gone). IMO that strongly implies a reverse effect would be possible, killing the Hunger Demon and leaving the human intact, if you could put that level of power into it.
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Rampire parent-child relations have to be infection/turning-based, not conventional reproduction-based,
We can't prove it to be an either Or methodology. We know the spell was originally designed for humans and not specifically to target Ramps. It accepting a non standardized form of birthing, when as we know spells are made by intention and this particular ritual work done by the reds themselves, is all very suspect to 'plot device' to me. As such I don't think the idea was specifically fleshed out in such a way, however. I do find this idea palatable for a different reasoning, mainly because in the cycle of the Dresden files, I think the Red King was his generation of 'Harry' which would imo make Ariana... Maggie. A highly ironic factiod I'd think. But I look toward the mirror/inversion in happenstance principle(as I just now coined it lol) Harry killed to protect his child, Nico killed his child to protect his own self interests, and RK's daughter wanted to kill HIM for hers. The cycles of Aeon produce many a possibility, but always the same starborn archetypes I'd say.
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The hunger demon can likely be destroyed or banished from the host. The problem is doing it without killing the host or leaving a vegetable shell.
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By implication the answer to the OP's question is yes. Otherwise Thomas is in deep shit. Of course JB may consider my idea as foolish given his superior plotting skills.
I tend to hold the superficial view the vampires are infected with some kind of virus, maybe developed by an outsider. Who then infected the oldest Court, possibly the Blacks. And that the various courts are mutations of the original. And that the phrase demon is not literal. The Skin Walker refers to Thomas as "little phage".
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A. Black court is probably the youngest. B. Phage means, roughly eater, Remember the Phobophages? Phages is generic... and not even denotive of vampires as we know them in the DF directly.
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To the OP: We know that they can be killed by the host experiencing True Love (or the equivalent dietary Bane), but only prior to the first feeding and it was implied that the hunger became too strong after that. We also know per WOJ that the Hunger of a fetus is perfectly capable of feeding off the mother to survive. Those two things make me think that a mature Hunger would simply take the Host down with it, exerting more animalistic control (as we saw with Thomas in TC) until both starved to death, or rather the hunger would drain the host to death and die with it.
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A. Black court is probably the youngest. B. Phage means, roughly eater, Remember the Phobophages? Phages is generic... and not even denotive of vampires as we know them in the DF directly.
I'm ok with that. But why do you think the Blacks are the youngest?
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I'm ok with that. But why do you think the Blacks are the youngest?
Cause 1400's is, iirc when was wojed Drac became the first one.
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We can't prove it to be an either Or methodology.
Well, I guess it's just maybe imaginable that Rampires could reproduce their own kind biologically... but there's no evidence for it, and it doesn't seem to fit with how other supernatural types work.
The Red Court infection is IMO pretty clearly the RCV's version of the "scion/Choice" mechanic. All the "living" supernatural species - things with biologically alive bodies, not pure spirits or undead like ghosts, zombies, and Black Court Vampires - that we've seen enough of to know use that mechanic. Faerie and Changelings, White Court and the whole "first feeding" setup, Kincaid is apparently some kind of scion that made his Choice by his actions, even Foo and Temple Dogs (though admittedly it's not clear how the Choice works for them...)
(OK, wizards and werewolves don't work that way, but wizards aren't really a "supernatural species" -- according to GS anyone could theoretically learn magic. And werewolves are either specialized minor practitioners (Alpha-types) or people with a spell put on them (hexenwolves, loup-garou), thus just humans also.)
I guess it's just maybe imaginable that Arianna could have been the Red King's biological child pre-Rampire ... but even if that's the case she probably also would have been his turning-child, because the Red King was the first Rampire and would have turned all the other early Rampires.
We don't even know the Red King was ever human. With what Odin says about 'mostly retired gods, the power of their blood spread among their descendants', I think it's at least as likely that the RK (and maybe the LoON as a whole?) were originally Nevernever beings who infected humans to create the Red Court as a species.
We know the spell was originally designed for humans and not specifically to target Ramps. It accepting a non standardized form of birthing, when as we know spells are made by intention and this particular ritual work done by the reds themselves, is all very suspect to 'plot device' to me.
Ah - but whose intention? The Reds just accumulated energy (human sacrifices) and did the preparation, Harry finished the spell... I think Harry's intention was sufficient to change it to target a different kind of bloodline. IMO it's more or less equivalent to Harry redirecting the Outsider powered entropy curse at the Black Court vampire (falling turkey) in BR, except that in this case Harry was actually the one doing the final casting and so had more control.
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Ah - but whose intention? The Reds just accumulated energy (human sacrifices) and did the preparation, Harry finished the spell... I think Harry's intention was sufficient to change it to target a different kind of bloodline. IMO it's more or less equivalent to Harry redirecting the Outsider powered entropy curse at the Black Court vampire (falling turkey) in BR, except that in this case Harry was actually the one doing the final casting and so had more control.
The one that used specific props to level said curse. If it was a loaded gun and Harry merely fired it, then he didn't choose the ammo or it's inherent intention/properties. I'd sooner compare it to what he does when he redirects fire to make ice. It wasn't quite the original intention, but an ingenious usage of what was already there.
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On a semi-related topic, how are wc vampires created? Clearly, being nibbled on (or even feasted on) does not transmit infection. Do they have to be born? If so, how is the creature transmitted through egg or sperm? The infection, which can be killed prior to the first feeding, is a discreet entity, it seems? Or, is it all one being in many bodies? I never quite understood what these things were supposed to be.
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On a semi-related topic, how are wc vampires created? Clearly, being nibbled on (or even feasted on) does not transmit infection. Do they have to be born? If so, how is the creature transmitted through egg or sperm? The infection, which can be killed prior to the first feeding, is a discreet entity, it seems? Or, is it all one being in many bodies? I never quite understood what these things were supposed to be.
Genetic disorder? From my best guess they are from the lineages of 3 of Ares and Hermaphrodites children, roughly fear, despair and lust iirc(which I don't ;p )
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Well, we've seen them come through the paternal line. Definitely it's born rather than made from a pure vanilla human. Not sure whether or not a vampire mother could carry a child to term without the demon killing the baby in utero.
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On a semi-related topic, how are wc vampires created? Clearly, being nibbled on (or even feasted on) does not transmit infection. Do they have to be born?
Yes, WC vamps reproduce in the regular human way, they can't "turn" normal humans. But the person isn't fully a WC vamp until they kill someone by feeding.
The infection, which can be killed prior to the first feeding, is a discreet entity, it seems? Or, is it all one being in many bodies? I never quite understood what these things were supposed to be.
I think it's a separate spirit that inhabits the body along with the human soul. It seems to be discrete, since it can be killed...
It's possible that a new Hunger demon is simply summoned from the Nevernever to inhabit a proto-WC vamp. Hmmmm, that might even explain why the Raiths aren't as numerous as one might expect, maybe there's only so many of the right type of demons around. I wouldn't be surprised if the White Court is basically maintained by a kind of massive persistent bloodline spell...
Although Uriel seems to think of them as a form of scion, so maybe the original founder was half-human, half-some kind of freaky deep-Nevernever demon.
(There's also the "Outsider sleeper agents" wild theory, based on the "Empty Night" curse they use being the last BAT title, and also used by Mother Summer to refer to - apparently - an Outsider victory. I speculated way back when that the WC Hunger demons were some kind of "Outsider gone native" or Outsider-hijacked NN entity or whatever; that the Outsiders/Walkers/Old Ones/whatever might have a "override switch" that would turn all the WC vamps into their minions...)
From my best guess they are from the lineages of 3 of Ares and Hermaphrodites children, roughly fear, despair and lust iirc(which I don't ;p )
Yeah, not quite. Ares' children with Aphrodite (not Hermaphroditus, who was the son of Hermes and Aphrodite in an unrelated myth) were Eros and Anteros (gods of desire/love), Deimos/Phobos (gods of fear), and Harmonia (goddess of harmony). Nothing equivalent to despair.
Not sure whether or not a vampire mother could carry a child to term without the demon killing the baby in utero.
Apparently so... wasn't Cesarina Malvora Vitto's mother?
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Deimos/Phobos (gods of fear),
Fear and terror, the abject giving in, subtle but important distinction.
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Apparently so... wasn't Cesarina Malvora Vitto's mother?
Good point. Assuming it's not something else going on like surrogacy or whatever.
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It should be easier for the mother if she is a vampire too as long as she keeps herself and her demon well fed.
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On a semi-related topic, how are wc vampires created? Clearly, being nibbled on (or even feasted on) does not transmit infection. Do they have to be born? If so, how is the creature transmitted through egg or sperm? The infection, which can be killed prior to the first feeding, is a discreet entity, it seems? Or, is it all one being in many bodies? I never quite understood what these things were supposed to be.
Nor does anybody else, yet. There's some mystery linked to the White Court.
What we do know, or think we know:
1. They seem to have originated in pre-Roman Italy, or at least they use Etruscan as their 'official' language in sort of the same way the Council uses Latin.
2. They are either immortal, or very nearly so. However, they do age, at least somewhat. As I've noted before, everybody recognizes Lord Raith, Lara, and Thomas as family, but people also usually recognize LR as the oldest and Lara as Thomas' older sister. So they are not frozen in time.
3. They reproduce sexually, just like normal humans. In fact, they look to be a variety of human being. They have souls and free will, they can be soulgazed, they are at least capable of genuine Love, and they can use magic in the same way as a human, and when they do, it produces tech bane. Mab has implied that a White Court 'vampire' would be a viable Faerie Knight. We know that a WCV can be preyed on and 'turned' by a Black Court vampire, we don't know but presumably it could be done by a Red, too. They feed on life energy for their Hunger, but they also eat normal food and drink water, too.
That all suggests that WVCs are basically variant humans.
4. Since they reproduce just like everybody else, there presumably had to be a first WVC or group of such, though it's entirely conceivable that the entire Court is descended from one person.
5. We don't know if LR is a first-generation WCV or not, but it looks unlikely. OTOH, he's apparently been around for many centuries and been influential enough to have had some effect on general human culture. So he might be one of the early generations.
6. It has been hinted that some kind of connection exists between the White Court and the Outsiders.
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2. They are either immortal, or very nearly so. However, they do age, at least somewhat. As I've noted before, everybody recognizes Lord Raith, Lara, and Thomas as family, but people also usually recognize LR as the oldest and Lara as Thomas' older sister. So they are not frozen in time.
Yeah, there is definitely some aging, but it must be subtle. I mean Thomas is about 40, Lara is over 100, and Lord Raith is maybe 2000. It probably slows exponentially or something, otherwise if the rate of aging was high enough to make the difference between Lara and Thomas noticeable, Lord Raith would be decrepit, which he clearly isn't.
Something of the same thing seems to happen to wizards, except that their exponentially slowed aging seems to happen about physically 50 or so... Luccio is described as looking maybe early middle age, with gray hair but very physically fit, but she's 200ish and talks about going through menopause 140 years ago. So she must have aged only a bit slower than human normal for her first 40 years of adulthood, but barely at all in the last 140 years...
That all suggests that WVCs are basically variant humans.
I totally agree. The difference between WCVs and standard humans is probably entirely magical/spiritual, not genetic - the result of having a Hunger demon stuck in their soul. It's probably roughly analogous to the Loup-garou curse or Lycanthropes or a permanent (non-item-based) form of Hexenwolf-ism/Denarian-hood.
4. Since they reproduce just like everybody else, there presumably had to be a first WVC or group of such, though it's entirely conceivable that the entire Court is descended from one person.
I'd expect that there probably was one founder. At first I was thinking one for each House, with the Fear, Despair, and Lust Hunger demons being separate types, but since a WCV can switch feeding-types (as Madrigal did) there can't be a fundamental difference between the Hunger demons of the different WC Houses. I think the "fixed" feeding types are just tradition.
5. We don't know if LR is a first-generation WCV or not, but it looks unlikely.
Why? I don't see that there is really any evidence one way or the other. Or rather, I can see evidence both ways.
On the pro side, Lord Raith (pre-Lara) seems excessively powerful. Even after being unable to feed for 30 years, he was horribly powerful in the battle in BR. He could rip someone's life out with a touch, which seems way beyond what we see from the others.
On the con side, Raith's position among the Houses doesn't seem as absolute as it would have been if LR had been White King since the very beginning. If a single overwhelmingly powerful ruler had been in charge since the beginning, the White Court probably wouldn't be as cat's-paw heavy and indirect as they are.
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One more "Fact" we know is that Uriel refers to that type as a Half-born, which for me puts them in the category of some sort of changling-style mixed race that is breeding true rather than having the Fae Changling Choice. Actually, they are probably most closely related to the berserker-style werewolves, the biker-gang kind that is born with a rage-spirit. Also worth nothing that on several occasions when a particularly powerful Wampire is tapping their hunger powers it has literally lowered the temperature of the room, caused frost to form, etc. (Pretty sure Papa wraith did it sometimes, and I know it happened in Bigfoot on Campus)