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The Dresden Files => DF Spoilers => Topic started by: Bacchus on October 05, 2017, 07:23:01 AM
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So I'm very sorry if this is already known or been discussed
With all the talk of breaking the laws of magic didn't Harry break the law about killing mortals with magic again in cold days during the Wild Hunt chase.
Harry was on the back of Murphy's Harley trying to escape and forzare'd one of the char hounds into a wall and broke its neck.
The char hound turned out to be a mortal human. I know this isn't as clear cut as burning someone alive but that seems to definitely qualify in my book.
He seemed to specificly time and aim the blow so it would kill the guy.
He also knows from Thomas that random people can join the hunt.
it would qualify as self defense but still.
Did that blacken his soul? Did he just forget he killed someone with magic?
He never seems to mention it again which seems strange to me. Wouldnt this lead to blackening his morals and making him more violent and murdery independent of the winter knight influence. Im currious about your thoughts or maybe dirrect me to a previous descussion about it if its already been talked about.
here is the quote
Something that looked like a great, gaunt hound made of smoke and cinders, with glowing coals for eyes, hit the ground just behind the Harley and began sprinting, keeping pace with us. It came rushing in, dark jaws spread to seize the back tire, the same motion it might have used had it been attempting to hamstring a fleeing deer. Mindless animal panic raged inside my head, but I kept it away from the core of my thoughts, forcing myself to focus, think, act.
I saw Karrin’s eyes snap over to her rearview mirror as it closed, and felt her body tensing against mine as she prepared to evade to the left. I gathered my will but waited to unleash it, and as the charhound closed to within inches of the tire, Karrin leaned and took the Harley left. The charhound’s jaws clashed closed on exhaust fumes, and I unleashed my will from the palm of my outstretched right hand with a snarl of “Forzare!”
Force hit the charhound low on its front legs, and the beast’s head went into the concrete at breakneck speed—literally. There was a terrible snapping sound, and the charhound’s limp body went tumbling end over end, bouncing up into the air for a dozen yards before landing, shedding wisps of darkness all the way.
What landed in a boneless sprawl on the road was not a dog, or a canine of any sort. It was a young man—a human, wearing a black T-shirt and torn old blue jeans. I barely had time to register that before the body tumbled off the road and was out of sight.
“Good shot!” Karrin cried, grinning fiercely. She was driving. She hadn’t seen what was under the hound’s outer shell.
So that was how one joined the Wild Hunt. It was a mask, a huge, dark, terrifying mask—a masquerade.
And I’d just killed a man.
Cold days chapter 41
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I think that there have been other threads about this but I can't remember the general consensus.
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I think that there have been other threads about this but I can't remember the general consensus.
Is a general consensus even possible?
There is no way to know whether the person Harry killed was actually a human according to the councils definition of human in the context of the first law.
We know it looked like a human and we know it was a predator because it joined. But even if it was a human before it joined, and humans can be predators, it is not sure if the council considers him human when part of the hunt.
So the whole question is full of unknowns.
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Personally, I don't think someone who's shapeshifted + being driven by beast-like mental influence counts.
There was no issue whatsoever with Harry putting down Harley MacFinn in loup-garou form, and the tape of that briefly hit television. If Morgan ca. Fool Moon could have used that against Harry as cause to execute him, he'd have been on it like a shot.
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Personally, I don't think someone who's shapeshifted + being driven by beast-like mental influence counts.
There was no issue whatsoever with Harry putting down Harley MacFinn in loup-garou form, and the tape of that briefly hit television. If Morgan ca. Fool Moon could have used that against Harry as cause to execute him, he'd have been on it like a shot.
Same goes for Denarians. Nobody on the council seems to care about blasting them with magic, and Harry never thinks twice about it.
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POV #1: Harry did not specifically intend to kill. He struck out at a magic beast that was attacking him. He did think to himself "I'm going to slam him into the wall and break his neck." He just lashed out and the result was the result. Harry was given clemency with Justin because it was self-defense.
POV#2: The stain of killing with magic isn't necessarily dependent on intent. Harry felt guilt when he realized he killed the kid. If he begins to justify the act and thus reduce the guilt and making it easier to kill with magic in the future, then that is the slippery slope.
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I don't think a person qualifies as mortal if taking part in the Wild Hunt.
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he was in an altered state such as denarions. also self defense.
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POV #1: Harry did not specifically intend to kill. He struck out at a magic beast that was attacking him. He did think to himself "I'm going to slam him into the wall and break his neck." He just lashed out and the result was the result. Harry was given clemency with Justin because it was self-defense.
He basically did just that, Harry didn't hit him from the side to push him away, he took his legs out. At that speed, it's a kill shot. However, he also didn't know at the time that he was killing a human and it was still self defense.
If he'd known that the beasts attacking were "masked" humans, could he have done something else? Only Jim knows. This could just become one of the deaths that sit on his conscience, like the kids burned up at Bianca's party and what's her name in FM.
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He basically did just that, Harry didn't hit him from the side to push him away, he took his legs out. At that speed, it's a kill shot. However, he also didn't know at the time that he was killing a human
He still does not know.
and it was still self defence.
Not as relevant as some people seem to think. Being part of the wild hunt is probably more relevant.
If he'd known that the beasts attacking were "masked" humans, could he have done something else? Only Jim knows. This could just become one of the deaths that sit on his conscience, like the kids burned up at Bianca's party and what's her name in FM.
Conscience is different from the laws of magic as defined by the council which is different from how magic actually works.
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"and it was still self defence."
1 - Harry was put on double secret probation when he killed in self defense. See Justin.
2 - Hannah Ascher was declared a Warlock for killing in self defense.
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"and it was still self defence."
1 - Harry was put on double secret probation when he killed in self defense. See Justin.
2 - Hannah Ascher was declared a Warlock for killing in self defense.
Harry had connections.
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Personally, I don't think someone who's shapeshifted + being driven by beast-like mental influence counts.
Which reminds me of the Hexenwulf and the Loup-garou. I don't think Harry got any black marks on his soul for using a magical amulet infused with his will to strike the killing blow on MacFinn, for example. Thus, either infusing a piece of silver with your will and using it to kill doesn't count as using magic to kill, or a Loup-garou in wolf form doesn't count as a human. Or both.
And I'm pretty sure that infusing an object with your will for a specific purpose is the definition of using magic, and therefore what Harry did to MacFinn with his amulet in "Fool Moon" was using magic to kill.
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"and it was still self defence."
1 - Harry was put on double secret probation when he killed in self defense. See Justin.
2 - Hannah Ascher was declared a Warlock for killing in self defense.
The wizards on the Council didn't believe Harry, but could not prove him a liar either. That's why he was on probation. Hannah was declared a warlock when she killed Wardens.
Harry had connections.
Harry had a wizard to vouch for him, just as Harry vouched for Molly. If Hannah had a wizard who would take responsibility to watch over her, she'd have been spared.
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The wizards on the Council didn't believe Harry, but could not prove him a liar either. That's why he was on probation. Hannah was declared a warlock when she killed Wardens.
Harry had a wizard to vouch for him, just as Harry vouched for Molly. If Hannah had a wizard who would take responsibility to watch over her, she'd have been spared.
Before she killed any Wardens maybe. But when they went to bring her in for trial she acted like onw would expect someone being taken away for execution to act, because that's just what you assume will happen when Wardens come asking after you.
The White Council really needs a good PR consultant...
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Before she killed any Wardens maybe. But when they went to bring her in for trial she acted like onw would expect someone being taken away for execution to act, because that's just what you assume will happen when Wardens come asking after you.
The White Council really needs a good PR consultant...
Oh after she killed the Wardens nobody could have saved her. I was saying that after she defended herself.
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Oh after she killed the Wardens nobody could have saved her. I was saying that after she defended herself.
We have seen how the merlin reacted to Molly's trial, he thought it a waste of time. The warden on the phone even thought they did not do trials anymore. Most warlocks are probably executed on the spot. We can not expect them to do a soul gaze on every warlock either, Morgan did not want to do one with Harry in dead beat probably because you never forget what you see in one. So a lot of them are probably executed on the spot on less than perfect evidence.
Really if the wardens are after you and you want to save your hide your only options are hide, run and, if backed in a corner, kill. That is the drawback of a system with only one punishment.
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We have seen how the merlin reacted to Molly's trial, he thought it a waste of time. The warden on the phone even thought they did not do trials anymore. Most warlocks are probably executed on the spot. We can not expect them to do a soul gaze on every warlock either, Morgan did not want to do one with Harry in dead beat probably because you never forget what you see in one. So a lot of them are probably executed on the spot on less than perfect evidence.
Really if the wardens are after you and you want to save your hide your only options are hide, run and, if backed in a corner, kill. That is the drawback of a system with only one punishment.
Langtry and the others were under the influence of Peabody's ink at the time, I believe. They still do trials. Harry was even there for one, the guy got executed, and Harry admitted he was too far gone to be saved.
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We have seen how the merlin reacted to Molly's trial, he thought it a waste of time. The warden on the phone even thought they did not do trials anymore. Most warlocks are probably executed on the spot. We can not expect them to do a soul gaze on every warlock either, Morgan did not want to do one with Harry in dead beat probably because you never forget what you see in one. So a lot of them are probably executed on the spot on less than perfect evidence.
Really if the wardens are after you and you want to save your hide your only options are hide, run and, if backed in a corner, kill. That is the drawback of a system with only one punishment.
Why Dead Beat?
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Why Dead Beat?
That is the one I remembered, could have happened before but I do not read storm front often.
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I don't think that what Molly or Hannah did is really relevant to killing a shapeshifted human who is under the influence of the Wild Hunt, since in Molly's case it wasn't killing, and in Hannah's case her victims weren't shapeshifted.
I maintain that the closest comparison to what the Wild Hunt does to humans (if it doesn't kill them) would be a werewolf curse, and that killing someone who is in the Wild Hunt would have similar effects on the killer to killing a werewolf.
And Harry had already gotten away with killing a werewolf.