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The Dresden Files => DF Spoilers => Topic started by: ClintACK on October 03, 2020, 10:23:50 AM
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Two huge character reveals in Battle Ground: Marcone and Justine.
I'm going to have to reread some books, but just skimming things for discussions, every time they appear I'm having to reassess what's happening.
At the end of Turn Coat, Justine is Harry's only point of contact for Thomas. She says it takes weeks for her to talk him into seeing Harry. Shagnasty *destroyed* Thomas. Justine's love nursed him back to mental health. She was Nemesis at the time. In Ghost Story, Justine brings him women to feed on -- he trusts her to pick his victims, knowing that the nature of their souls influences him. (You are what you eat.) And she was Nemesis the whole time.
Similarly, in Changes, when Harry meets with Marcone for their usual threats-and-banter... it's almost certain that he's taken up Namshiel's coin by then, and is studying wizardry. And there's not a hint of it -- except "Is that how you think it would happen?"
Also, I think there's a connection between these two revelations. Clearly, Marcone took the coin in Small Favor, but I bet he didn't take it up at that time. I think what pushed him over the edge to taking up the coin was the events of Even Hand. And I think that was the point of Even Hand. Justine/Nemesis got the Fomor to probe Marcone's anti-wizard defenses while she watched from the inside, and their failure was what pushed Marcone into taking up Namshiel's coin. Even Hand takes place between Turn Coat and Changes.
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Except we do not know when Justine was infected. She was a captive in even hand and she could have been infected during her captivity. That explains her escape, the Fomor have too much experience in holding captives to make escape easy.
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Except we do not know when Justine was infected. She was a captive in even hand and she could have been infected during her captivity. That explains her escape, the Fomor have too much experience in holding captives to make escape easy.
She also was captive as far back as Grave Peril. We've always thought her insanity was cured by Thomas feeding on her, and maybe medication as well. But what if the "cure" was Nemenes?
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Two huge character reveals in Battle Ground: Marcone and Justine.
I'm going to have to reread some books, but just skimming things for discussions, every time they appear I'm having to reassess what's happening.
At the end of Turn Coat, Justine is Harry's only point of contact for Thomas. She says it takes weeks for her to talk him into seeing Harry. Shagnasty *destroyed* Thomas. Justine's love nursed him back to mental health. She was Nemesis at the time. In Ghost Story, Justine brings him women to feed on -- he trusts her to pick his victims, knowing that the nature of their souls influences him. (You are what you eat.) And she was Nemesis the whole time.
Similarly, in Changes, when Harry meets with Marcone for their usual threats-and-banter... it's almost certain that he's taken up Namshiel's coin by then, and is studying wizardry. And there's not a hint of it -- except "Is that how you think it would happen?"
Also, I think there's a connection between these two revelations. Clearly, Marcone took the coin in Small Favor, but I bet he didn't take it up at that time. I think what pushed him over the edge to taking up the coin was the events of Even Hand. And I think that was the point of Even Hand. Justine/Nemesis got the Fomor to probe Marcone's anti-wizard defenses while she watched from the inside, and their failure was what pushed Marcone into taking up Namshiel's coin. Even Hand takes place between Turn Coat and Changes.
She also just happened to out Harry and Thomas' relationship in front of another warden.
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Any one else think marcone picking up enough magic to do what all the other heavyweights in BG couldn't just from the coin and teachings of a fallen in such a short time is a bit off. Through out the series it has been said time and time again that marcone is vanilla, so how does he use magic? Nic has had 2000 year to learn but apparently because he had no talent he couldn't but marcone with no talent gets better than odin etc so quick it makes your head spin. Is this a glaring inconsistency or is somthing else going on
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Any one else think marcone picking up enough magic to do what all the other heavyweights in BG couldn't just from the coin and teachings of a fallen in such a short time is a bit off. Through out the series it has been said time and time again that marcone is vanilla, so how does he use magic? Nic has had 2000 year to learn but apparently because he had no talent he couldn't but marcone with no talent gets better than odin etc so quick it makes your head spin. Is this a glaring inconsistency or is somthing else going on
It's surprising but it is something that was established back in Dead Beat with Lash's first offers.
"That I can do you a great deal of good," she said. "I have the knowledge and memory of two thousand years of life upon this world, and infinite thousands outside it. I know many things that could be of use to you. I can advise you. Teach you secrets of your craft never known to mortalkind. Show you sights no human has ever seen. Share with you memory and image beyond anything you could imagine."
"Let me help you," she urged me. "I can help you defend yourself against the disciples of Kemmler. I can teach you magics you have never considered. I can show you how to make yourself stronger, swifter. I can show you how you might heal the damage to your hand, if you have enough discipline. There wouldn't even be a scar."
For context this is offering to take him from knowing absolutely zero healing spells to being the single best healer on the White Council by a hefty margin in a decade at most with the implication that she could do something similar for other types of magic too (and now you know why Lash died the instant she turned away from Lasciel). And keep in mind that Thorned Namshiel is kind of the magic nerd of the denarians so he's even better. Marcone got pretty much the best tutor around.
As for Nicodemus, my only guess for the in-story explanation as to why he hasn't gone and pulled a Victor Sells to get the raw mojo of a senior council member or three is that he's one of the few people with absolutely zero magical talent so making himself basically a demigod is a no-go even with the church throwing their own pseudo-gods at him. Of course the real reason is that him slinging spells everywhere would seriously screw with his role as the anti-Michael.
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Harry was already a wizard. Marcone's demon form has accoutrements, Harry calls him Spiny Boy. Not gonna be a good look for Marcone.
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Harry was already a wizard. Marcone's demon form has accoutrements, Harry calls him Spiny Boy. Not gonna be a good look for Marcone.
Think again.
(https://i.pinimg.com/originals/70/c8/8f/70c88f5fccf10f0cb3b470f0d535f833.jpg)
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Then again.
(https://static.wikia.nocookie.net/dresdenfiles/images/8/8c/Thorned_Namshiel.jpg/revision/latest/scale-to-width-down/315?cb=20180226154728)
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ClintACK, I came to the same conclusions after rereading Even Hand. :)
I was wondering whether Justine was the one to send Shagnasty after Thomas. I'm starting to suspect that her brains were never cured. While she still loved him at the time, Nemesis did the thinking. Making her believe that it was for Thomas' own good if he returned to his Vampire ways.
Except we do not know when Justine was infected. She was a captive in even hand and she could have been infected during her captivity. That explains her escape, the Fomor have too much experience in holding captives to make escape easy.
Do you suspect that Besides wanted to cast doubts on Justine's every action since White Night at least by lying about the time of the infection?
I dunno, it makes a lot of sense to me that it was telling the truth. Harry was not supposed to survive at that point. Of course, Besides could have done it anyway, just to torment Harry or in case Harry escaped. He is a Starborn after all...
The implications are severe if Besides was telling the truth: It would mean that True Love and Nemesis can coexist (at least for a while), Nemesis might even be able to abuse it (that's what I think happened with Justine), Thomas will have to come to terms with it that the healthy and seemingly sane Justine he loved was a puppet the whole time ... it's very hard to swallow but is it really impossible?
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ClintACK, I came to the same conclusions after rereading Even Hand. :)
I was wondering whether Justine was the one to send Shagnasty after Thomas. I'm starting to suspect that her brains were never cured. While she still loved him at the time, Nemesis did the thinking. Making her believe that it was for Thomas' own good if he returned to his Vampire ways.
Do you suspect that Besides wanted to cast doubts on Justine's every action since White Night at least by lying about the time of the infection?
I dunno, it makes a lot of sense to me that it was telling the truth. Harry was not supposed to survive at that point. Of course, Besides could have done it anyway, just to torment Harry or in case Harry escaped. He is a Starborn after all...
The implications are severe if Besides was telling the truth: It would mean that True Love and Nemesis can coexist (at least for a while), Nemesis might even be able to abuse it (that's what I think happened with Justine), Thomas will have to come to terms with it that the healthy and seemingly sane Justine he loved was a puppet the whole time ... it's very hard to swallow but is it really impossible?
I don’t know. It is even possible that she was infected earlier but the possession came later. If it is just an infection the infected can behave mostly normal and is only influenced in specific situations. That could be compatible with true love.
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I don’t know. It is even possible that she was infected earlier but the possession came later. If it is just an infection the infected can behave mostly normal and is only influenced in specific situations. That could be compatible with true love.
It shouldn't shock, consider those we know were infected, and those that we suspect.
1] Elaine, on one hand unlikely, yet on the other hand she took refuge in the Summer Court
and what happened? She may have been infected by Justin.
2] Around the time that Elaine came to the Court, possibly before, but no doubt after, Aurora
became infected. Never proven, but she tried to take both Courts down before Harry and company
killed her. However up until the time she actually acted, she seemed very normal. Grieved, yes,
but I think Titania knows, that is why she whispered to Harry finally in Cold Days, "Nemeses."
3] She was acting a little power hungry anyway, so no one would have noticed that after she got
the Knife at Bianca's party that Lea was infected. However Lea, herself noticed it, told Mab and had herself committed to the ice cure. One that Mab, herself submitted to as a precaution seemingly.
4] Maeve, who's normal behavior was so outrageous anyway, that her own mother, Mad didn't
notice anything was amiss until it was too late, she could do nothing but order her daughter
euthanized.
5] Cat Sith, seemed normal, until Harry, now tipped off by Titania, realized that Cat's normal, wasn't and called him out just in time. Can you imagine what would have happened if he was on Demonreach with them when Maeve was getting ready to kill everyone?
6] Now Justine, yes, I think it is very possible that the "cure" for her mental illness wasn't the light feedings from Thomas, but Nemeses in stealth mode. And yes, very possible she could truly love Thomas, while the thing possessing her did it's deadly job. She'd appear "normal," sweet, intelligent, beautiful, Justine, who'd suspect her of anything? So yes, human Justine could truly love Thomas, meanwhile Nemeses quietly did it's deadly work.
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The implications are severe if Besides was telling the truth: It would mean that True Love and Nemesis can coexist (at least for a while), Nemesis might even be able to abuse it (that's what I think happened with Justine), Thomas will have to come to terms with it that the healthy and seemingly sane Justine he loved was a puppet the whole time ... it's very hard to swallow but is it really impossible?
The only real model we have for possession is looking at the Denarians, and how Lash interacted with Harry.
I'd assume Justine was still *there*, just increasingly manipulated by He Who Walks Beside whispering at her. She still loves Thomas, truly and deeply. She just isn't thinking straight about it.
I'd also assume that when Nemesis took over the wheel, Justine is starting to be more like Rasmussen (Uriel's host) was in Death Masks -- she's trapped inside her own mind, but still in there.
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The only real model we have for possession is looking at the Denarians, and how Lash interacted with Harry.
Yes, and we observed how Lasciel was able to completely convince Harry he was getting it on with a non-existent woman, named Sheila. The only thing that saved the day was Butters, bringing Harry back to reality, that no woman was there, and her lovely condo was really a condemned rat trap.
I'd assume Justine was still *there*, just increasingly manipulated by He Who Walks Beside whispering at her. She still loves Thomas, truly and deeply. She just isn't thinking straight about it.
Yes, I am sure she is, and like Harry, she, at first wasn't aware that Nemeses was in her head, with no one to tell her. So how could she fight it? Now that HWWBeside is on the case it is more overt, but you are right, she still inside. Hopefully she knows now that she is sharing her brain with monsters. Unless Nemeses has a way to shut off the thinking area of her brain, for the sake of her baby and love for Thomas, she may begin to fight it. And who knows? The strong will of true love may win out in the end.
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What really are the limits of Nemesis? How many individuals can it infect at a time? Surely, there has to be some limit there. So far, we know that only Starborn like Harry cannot be hijacked. But, this leaves open the possibility that Harry could give in.
Our official list of Starborn is pretty small: (1) Harry; (2) Elaine; (3) Listen_the_Turtleneck; and (4) ... Drakul (b. ~1310). Rashid might also be a Starborn. That might make a great deal of sense given his job duties. It would be ... bad if your Gatekeeper was nem-fectable.
Marcone taking a coin is interesting and not that surprising. In Small Favor we knew that Namshiel's coin went AWOL. Marcone, Sanya, Hendricks, Gard, Ivy and the very wounded Michael were on the helicopter rescue. Gard flies the copter; Sanya takes care of Michael. Hendricks manned the mini-gun. Ivy was possibly in no shape to do anything. That would have given Marcone the opportunity to search Michael's or Sanya's things looking for a coin.
I had assumed that Odin's organization had taken the coin for their own purposes, but if that were true then Odin would have given Marcone the coin. That's not exactly the kind of Christmas present one would expect from Santa, but then what do you get the Crime Lord who has everything?
It makes sense, however, for Marcone to pick up a coin. First, he's not a good guy, despite our desires to make him an Anti-Villain. Second, his territory had been violated for the second time by the Denarians and his very expensive security detail was ineffective. He would have been motivated to even the odds somehow. Third, Harry has made it no secret that he'd like to take Marcone down one day.
Namshiel is an ideal coin from Marcone's point of view. Namshiel is not a Nicodemus flunky. Namshiel offers magic in some form as well. Provided that Namshiel is not a Ursiel-type, it would be a good partnership.
On magic, we don't really know whether Marcone is doing the magic or whether its Namshiel. I suspect Namshiel "drives." I don't think we see Marcone do any workings prior to his "transformation." Tessa, for example, can throw spells in her human form.
If it is true that Namshiel was part of the presumed Black Council assault on Artis Tor, I wonder how pleased Mab is with this development?
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But I think Vadderung knows Marcone took the coin. The way he refers to celestial and infernal power.
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Good point. He knows, he just wasn't quite spreading it around.
Another point, about Justine. If she was infected prior to White Night (her untouchability by WCV making her an ideal servant for Lara), that would mean that Mr. Sunshine took Harry to spirit walk to Thomas and Justine's place while Justine was Nemesis at the end of Ghost Story. Did Mr. Sunshine know she was infected? Is Nemesis that good at hiding?
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If it is true that Namshiel was part of the presumed Black Council assault on Artis Tor, I wonder how pleased Mab is with this development?
I'm still suspicious that Tessa was behind that and threw the blame on Namshiel as far as Mab is concerned, and Rosanna as far as Nic is concerned.
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Good point. He knows, he just wasn't quite spreading it around.
Another point, about Justine. If she was infected prior to White Night (her untouchability by WCV making her an ideal servant for Lara), that would mean that Mr. Sunshine took Harry to spirit walk to Thomas and Justine's place while Justine was Nemesis at the end of Ghost Story. Did Mr. Sunshine know she was infected? Is Nemesis that good at hiding?
Oh, I think he knew. Harry wanted to see his brother, and Uriel showed him. Interesting it happened just at the moment that Justine brought her girlfriend home for sex to break the true love protection. Uriel of course wouldn't say anything to Harry as part of his sorta noninterference thing going. However I think it might turn out to be significant in the future, here is why. Why did Justine wait until that late moment in her relationship with Thomas to suddenly set it up so they can have sex? 1] Nemeses thought Harry was dead and gone, the odds that it would be discovered before it was ready, just went down..2] Given what Thomas said about White Court Vamp low fertility rates, Nemeses knew it might take a year or more to get Justine pregnant.
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It would mean that True Love and Nemesis can coexist.
It would only mean that True Love Protection and Nemesis can coexist.
What really are the limits of Nemesis? How many individuals can it infect at a time? Surely, there has to be some limit there. So far, we know that only Starborn like Harry cannot be hijacked. But, this leaves open the possibility that Harry could give in.
Our official list of Starborn is pretty small: (1) Harry; (2) Elaine; (3) Listen_the_Turtleneck; and (4) ... Drakul (b. ~1310).
We, and Harry, only suspect Nemesis can't infect him. We don't know that Elaine is star born.
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We, and Harry, only suspect Nemesis can't infect him. We don't know that Elaine is star born.
There is circumstantial evidence, that either she isn't a star born as hoped, or she took a different turn, and her path is way different.
Evidence for; If she was born about the same time as Harry, the stars would have been aligned for
her also.
Justin pulled her out of the orphanage, or we think he did, we don't know her full story, for some reason presumably because he felt she could be.
Evidence against; Justin was able to enthrall her.
She fled to the Summer Court after Justin died, and Aurora began to show symptoms of infection.
In Summer Knight though in the end she did help Harry, her actions were suspect of infection when you look back.
Shrug of shoulders; In White Night she seemed very normal, very level headed wizard type lady..
Verdict? Too little information to go by..
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There is circumstantial evidence, that either she isn't a star born as hoped, or she took a different turn, and her path is way different.
Evidence for; If she was born about the same time as Harry, the stars would have been aligned for
her also.
Justin pulled her out of the orphanage, or we think he did, we don't know her full story, for some reason presumably because he felt she could be.
Evidence against; Justin was able to enthrall her.
She fled to the Summer Court after Justin died, and Aurora began to show symptoms of infection.
In Summer Knight though in the end she did help Harry, her actions were suspect of infection when you look back.
Shrug of shoulders; In White Night she seemed very normal, very level headed wizard type lady..
Verdict? Too little information to go by..
I say she's not infected because if she was she'd have just delayed for 5 more seconds or let the thorns take him. She had way too many chances to let Aurora win to be also infected.
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I'm still suspicious that Tessa was behind that and threw the blame on Namshiel as far as Mab is concerned, and Rosanna as far as Nic is concerned.
what evidence is there that it was Namshiel? Like, does anyone ever come out and say it? The closest I remember is Harry mentioning him when Mabs talking about the Attack and she goes cold and cruel about the reply. But does she blame the fallen or the host? The host was already dead.. and from the way she talked to Anduriel I'd assume if she blames Namshiel then Marcone having the coin changes nothing but perhaps a newfound ire for Marcone as an ally of an enemy.. an enemy owed a dept.
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I say she's not infected because if she was she'd have just delayed for 5 more seconds or let the thorns take him. She had way too many chances to let Aurora win to be also infected.
two things on this
1 her birthday is in summer. I'm not saying she's not starborn but this leaves big questions about why Eb said once every 666 and conjoined that with the starborn light only falling on earth for a free hours... We're being mislead somewhere here..
2 because of how Maeve talks about mortal madness, I assume Elaine being around constantly WAS the vector to Aurora... Cant remember who was speaking on watching her slowly change throughout the years in BG but I assume that was the effect of Elaine's presence... Harry changes stuff by interaction, and naming.. why not Elaine if she is Starborn? Idk if she was aware of what she was doing or not, but it's what I think happened. Elaine showed her the perspective of never ceasing violence and destruction the two courts balancing act caused from a human standpoint.
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I say she's not infected because if she was she'd have just delayed for 5 more seconds or let the thorns take him. She had way too many chances to let Aurora win to be also infected.
That is possible, but is it also possible that Elaine is or was a carrier? She brought Nemesis to the Summer Court, in the process of infecting Aurora, was cured herself? Or it is also possible that it wasn't the plan to take Harry out in that moment, because it would mess up the over all plan, thinking in the long term as Marcone put it.
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That is possible, but is it also possible that Elaine is or was a carrier? She brought Nemesis to the Summer Court, in the process of infecting Aurora, was cured herself? Or it is also possible that it wasn't the plan to take Harry out in that moment, because it would mess up the over all plan, thinking in the long term as Marcone put it.
As soon as Harry was through it was either Harry or Aurora so that would mean they were prepared to just let the whole operation fail to keep Harry alive. I think that is too much of a stretch.
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Elaine could be complicit in a number of ways that doesn't require her to be infected:
- If mortals summon Outsiders, perhaps Elaine summoned Beside to infect Aurora in exchange for protection. Elaine said she made a deal for Summer's protection, but she could have been obscuring what deal and with whom.
- Perhaps Elaine is the referenced "Destroyer" Morgan was worried Harry was. We still don't know what threat that poses.
- Perhaps Elaine went to Summer because of something Justin had already set in motion. If her "entrallment" carried over, someone else still might be pulling the strings (Cowl?).
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As soon as Harry was through it was either Harry or Aurora so that would mean they were prepared to just let the whole operation fail to keep Harry alive. I think that is too much of a stretch.
Elaine was, but not so much Aurora, let's not forget the Stone Table was mixed in there along with the Unraveling.Elaine could be complicit in a number of ways that doesn't require her to be infected:
- If mortals summon Outsiders, perhaps Elaine summoned Beside to infect Aurora in exchange for protection. Elaine said she made a deal for Summer's protection, but she could have been obscuring what deal and with whom.
- Perhaps Elaine is the referenced "Destroyer" Morgan was worried Harry was. We still don't know what threat that poses.
- Perhaps Elaine went to Summer because of something Justin had already set in motion. If her "entrallment" carried over, someone else still might be pulling the strings (Cowl?).
All those are possible.
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what evidence is there that it was Namshiel? Like, does anyone ever come out and say it? The closest I remember is Harry mentioning him when Mabs talking about the Attack and she goes cold and cruel about the reply. But does she blame the fallen or the host? The host was already dead.. and from the way she talked to Anduriel I'd assume if she blames Namshiel then Marcone having the coin changes nothing but perhaps a newfound ire for Marcone as an ally of an enemy.. an enemy owed a dept.
Since we never knew who Thorned Namshiel's host was you can't answer that.
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Since we never knew who Thorned Namshiel's host was you can't answer that.
he's the guy harry killed with the mage hand..
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Yeah I get that. But you never get the hosts name. For instance Cassius carried Saluriel, But Thorned Namshiel is Thorned Namshiel. I was just pointing this out.
The coin of Thorned Namshiel, one of a set of thirty, rested on an almost unbearably fine silver chain against Marcone’s chest.
Butcher, Jim. Battle Ground (Dresden Files) (p. 330). Penguin Publishing Group. Kindle Edition.
Thorned Namshiel was ranting about something. Practically foaming at the mouth, really—right up until Amoracchius flashed in a line of silver fire, and Thorned Namshiel’s head hopped up off his shoulders, tumbled twice, and fell into the snow.
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Wasn't there a comment once about how when the knights refer to someone by the name of the fallen, that is someone who is completely taken over, but if they refer to them by the name of the host (Like Nic) then that denotes someone who is in more of a partnership? So we can sort of assume that the prior host was pretty much a non-entity, completely taken over by the fallen?
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he's the guy harry killed with the mage hand..
I don't have a copy of SmF atm. Wasn't it in the first fight against Thorned Namshiel at the Shack that Harry was suddenly gifted with Soulfire?
If it was, is this another huge clue in hindsight? Uriel's way to contribute in the fight against Nemesis?
Thorned Namshiel is the prime subject for the Denarian to throw around Hellfire during the attack at Arctis Tor.
The motive behind the attack is almost certainly Nemesis-related.
By recent woj, the Fallen themselves can be Nemfected, but it would be sort of impractical. So if Thorned Namshiel was Nemfected, it was probably the host. It almost has to be the case, or Vadderung and Mab would have a major problem with Sir Baron now. I am sure that both are able to see exactly who is with him. While Mab is more vary of Marcone now, I got the impression at the end of BG, when she discusses him with Harry, that she still counts on him to be an ally.
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Actually I am wondering if Namshiel still thinks Lasciel is in Harry's head? I think his host was dead in Small Favor when Nic tried to call on the Shadow to take charge of Harry, and Harry told him she was no longer at home. So when Marcone said he was thinking long term, maybe he still thinks Lasciel is still there waiting to be called upon?
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Actually I am wondering if Namshiel still thinks Lasciel is in Harry's head? I think his host was dead in Small Favor when Nic tried to call on the Shadow to take charge of Harry, and Harry told him she was no longer at home. So when Marcone said he was thinking long term, maybe he still thinks Lasciel is still there waiting to be called upon?
Hm, this could explain why Namshiel allowed Harry to see it's new host.
On the other hand, we don't know wherher he ever knew that Nic slipped Lasciel's coin to Harry in the first place.
And he was possibly the only Denarian who knew that Harry had Soulfire. It genuinely upset him. If Soulfire is granted to people who have overcome a Shadow, something Michael said was unheard of (according to the Church's records), he could have figured out that there had been a Shadow and that it was no longer there. The Denarians might be aware of the other instances where Soulfire was granted.
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Hm, this could explain why Namshiel allowed Harry to see it's new host.
On the other hand, we don't know wherher he ever knew that Nic slipped Lasciel's coin to Harry in the first place.
And he was possibly the only Denarian who knew that Harry had Soulfire. It genuinely upset him. If Soulfire is granted to people who have overcome a Shadow, something Michael said was unheard of (according to the Church's records), he could have figured out that there had been a Shadow and that it was no longer there. The Denarians might be aware of the other instances where Soulfire was granted.
Maybe he has a special mission to corrupt Harry, that would be interesting :)
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[Elaine's] birthday is in summer.
Do you remember where you learned this? I don't recall anything about her birthday.
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Do you remember where you learned this? I don't recall anything about her birthday.
pretty sure it's in an old Woj. I don't remember if he specifies spring solstice or not though, that might just be an idea...