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The Dresden Files => DFRPG => Topic started by: yrtalien on March 15, 2012, 12:52:16 AM
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I'm still sort of new to this and I have a player who wants to use Thaumaturgy to change his pea-coat so that it is storng as Kevlar but still flexible. Basically, I think he wants to add the aspect Tough as steel (or kevlar), in talking about the process by which this is done I told him it would allow him to tag its tough aspect in order to defend against gunfire... he believes the coat should just provide the armmor of a kevlar vest (armor:2) I think. We can't seem to agree... How should I do this.
He also says that if he made a wine glass hard as steel would he have to spend a fate point every time he wanted it to resist breakage... or would it just be strong as steel.
Please advise
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Enchanted items are the way to go for something like this.
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I'm fairly new to the game, but from what I understand you can't have an item that is "always on".
You might want to check out this thread about the magical items patch: link (http://www.jimbutcheronline.com/bb/index.php/topic,17041.0.html)
From the thread:
Before you worry about defensive items and frequency of use, consider this - you'd only lose one "use" of the effect whenever it needs to be triggered, not every time you defend. If you dodge an attack, that doesn't use up energy - it only applies if you get hit and the item is what blocks/absorbs the hit.
So it makes defensive magical items more of a mystical ass-saving measure, which feels a lot more like how it's described in the books - it's Harry's last resort for when he can't dodge or otherwise protect himself. "Luckily, the blade was stopped on the flaps of my enchanted duster, or I'd have been a dead man," etc.
From that same thread Harry's duster might be something like:
So would Harry's coat (made with Great Lore, and one item slot) be something like:
The coat provides either a Fair (+2) Block or Armor: 1 up to 5 times per session?
Because that's as close as can be gotten with it's current statting, but this version (made with Great Lore and two item slots) looks closer:
The coat provides either a Great (+4) Block or Armor: 2 up to 3 times per session.
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Enchanted items are the way to go for something like this.
He's not trying to get around enchanted items. Just make the equivelant of a bullet proof vest with magic instead of kevlar and an industrial sewing machine. It still has the holes of a bullet proof vest of not protecting against being thrown off a building, etc.
Also, make a glass wand as strong as steel, making it difficult to break. Transmutation gives permanent aspects, i.e. If someone was transmuted to be a quadruple aputee, would you then have to tag the aspect each exchaned in order to prevent him from getting up and kicking your ass.
should permanent aspects applied to someone, something have to be tagged each and every exchange in order to keep the transmutation. which had to be aquired by a taken out result.
I knocked someone unconcious and tied them up. If I had to tag the aspect of tied up each exchange, would he then be able to just get up and walk away, as soon as I ran out of fate points.
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Ok, last post is the player typing, not the story teller.
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Ok, Firstly I will point out that my advice is not RAW. RAW states that if you want magic armor, then you make an enchanted item that provides armor (half of the shift total) and it is only usable X times (X being the shifts devoted to use +1). I am about to tell you to break those rules.
What I would do is actually allow the player to make a lore roll to create it, provided that this armor is identical to Kevlar, just like the player would roll resources to acquire Kevlar. If the product is the same then the method for acquiring it should be the same as well.
As far as other objects, how often do you need a steel wine glass? How often does it's hardness matter? Once a scene? Then you can simply tag the aspect when it's important. If you actually want to transmute anything permanently you must take it out and remake it. Then it is actually that other thing.
Transmuting someone into a quadruple amputee would be much more than a simple maneuver. It would be an actual conflict in which you would have to take them out (requiring 25-30 shifts) and then remake them afterwards, changing their high concept.
Additionally someone who is tied up has also been taken out.
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He's not trying to get around enchanted items. Just make the equivelant of a bullet proof vest with magic instead of kevlar and an industrial sewing machine. It still has the holes of a bullet proof vest of not protecting against being thrown off a building, etc.
Making an enchanted item for armor is exactly that. You can flavor it however you want, but the mechanics are that you take your enchanted item slots to make an item, and the armor value is 1/2 of whatever amount of power you put into it.
Yes, it comes with limits on the number of uses, but a practitioner can get extra uses by spending mental stress.
Alternately, make it an Item of Power. Supernatural Toughness with the catch of "Anything except bullets." Otherwise, magical armor that's permanently on and has unlimited uses--without costing refresh or resources--is kind of cheating.
As for the super-strong wand, I'd argue you've got it backward. The owner wouldn't have to spend a fate point every time the item has to remain unbroken, whoever's trying to break it would get a fate point as a compel whenever they try to break it--or the player would get a fate point if someone tries the ritual way to break it.
Same way that a Red Court Vampire doesn't have to spend a fate point to get its toughness to work.
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So you want to do a thaumaturgic ritual to give an item mundane properties via magic? Okay, but keep in mind that the effects of magic are temporary. You may change lead into gold, but it'll turn back by sunrise. It takes a tremendous amount of force to change something's shape permanently.
Here's how I'd let you do it:
Take the craftsmanship roll required to make a suitable kevlar vest (it's not just sewing the cloth together, but carefully making sure that you don't have weak seams, getting the right number of layers, the right type of kevlar, etc).
Add +2 for the difficulty in finding the material (do you know what raw kevlar and then kevlar in its treated forms are like? How long do you want this to take? You'd have to know their properties pretty well to replicate it).
A kevlar vest takes years to come from prototype to final product. We'll say you have a prototype, so weeks to manufacture then (from chemical treatment to finished product). Add +1 for each step up on the time chart (we'll call it something you want to do in an afternoon).
So, really, we're looking at probably 3 (base difficulty)+2 (unfamiliar materials)+5 (done in an afternoon rather than over a few weeks) at a 10 shift ritual that would feasibly last until sunrise/sunset (call it an afternoon). Then, bump it up on the time chart to make it last longer.
So to make it last a season 7 steps.
17 difficulty ritual to have Armor 1 (basic kevlar vest is designed to prevent penetration of bullets, not stop them cold like ceramic plating and other more advanced and more cumbersome types of body armor). This is all fully extrapolated from RAW. Even if I were lenient (say, eliminating or reducing the time to make), you're still looking at something like 10-15 complexity).
Better to steal it or use an enchanted item.
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Yeah, bottom line is, making anything with magic, is like...effective, lasting, free, choose 2.
If you want something effective and free, it's not going to last long at all.
If you want something free and lasting, it's not going to have any real effect.
If you want something effective and lasting, it's going to cost permanent resources in the form of refresh and item slots.
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This reminds me of the Can I Conjure a Sword entry in YS.
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This reminds me of the Can I Conjure a Sword entry in YS.
That's actually a really good point.
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I knocked someone unconcious and tied them up. If I had to tag the aspect of tied up each exchange, would he then be able to just get up and walk away, as soon as I ran out of fate points.
Something else I was mulling over. Personally, as a GM, when I compel something it stays compelled. I hate the concept that compels somehow have a duration, and that if a compel was last turn the complications are somehow gone now. If you accept a compel to be tied up, then you can't just wait a few seconds and then not be tied up. So personally I always run it as the compel lasts for the duration of the aspect. If you want to not have those difficulties you can deal with the aspect or wait till the scene is over.
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Yeah, a compel like that should last, at the very least, until the end of a scene or something happens to remove the aspect or change the situation to make the aspect irrelevant.
If you have the temp aspect "TANGLED IN MY WEB" compelled to say you can't leave a zone, you can't leave that zone until something happens to free you of the web.
That said, being tied up is probably more properly a block than an aspect.
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That said, being tied up is probably more properly a block than an aspect.
More like a taken out result to me.
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Even if it was a Taken Out result, I'd still assign a block value, since one assumes that the person tied up is going to try and get out if they're awake, and the block would be the difficulty of doing so.
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I think if I had to choose between a block and an aspect I'd still pick the aspect.
Mechanically, Non-evocation blocks must be maintained, and are not broken if exceeded (everyone forgets that bit). Whereas the aspect functions to prevent actions, has a difficulty to remove that is assigned by the GM or the shifts determined to create the aspect (essentially the same as breaking a block), can act as a block (if we choose to invoke for effect to do so), and has a number of other uses. Aspects are more flexible, have more options for use and are mechanically more fitting to the situation.
Also an aspect generates fate points.
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A thaumaturgy spell to reinforce a coat is, mechanically, easiest as a transformation maneuver generating an aspect (Bullet Proof, for instance) with one free tag per 3 complexity invested. Don't forget to put some complexity into duration though, as it will only last the scene otherwise.
Or you can have the enchanted item, and burn a mental stress if you need it more than once per session. This is probably best if you have any specialization/foci put into item creation. Enchanted item blocks are really efficient (much better than enchanted item attacks).
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He's not trying to get around enchanted items. Just make the equivelant of a bullet proof vest with magic instead of kevlar and an industrial sewing machine. It still has the holes of a bullet proof vest of not protecting against being thrown off a building, etc.
Areas like this are where DFRPG suggests you start from desired result and work backwards to which mechanics fit. So, if the desired result is a normal kevlar-like vest which, for game purposes, will be indistinguishable from an actual kevlar vest I'd just treat Lore as a resources roll. Figure out the Resource 'cost' for a kevlar vest, add a couple for "doing it the hard way" (i.e. Using transformation instead of just buying it.), and if you succeed you've transformed your coat into a kevlar vest. As a transformation, it changes the clothing to be armor - it will look like armor and be just as obvious as wearing a kevlar vest. On the other hand, if your desire is something magical which humans will think of as a normal coat or piece of clothing I'd go with an enchanted item.
Also, make a glass wand as strong as steel, making it difficult to break.
Same idea as above. You can transform the glass into steel in which case it has all the properties of steel or you can magically enhance the glass as an enchanted item.
Transmutation gives permanent aspects, i.e. If someone was transmuted to be a quadruple aputee, would you then have to tag the aspect each exchaned in order to prevent him from getting up and kicking your ass.
should permanent aspects applied to someone, something have to be tagged each and every exchange in order to keep the transmutation. which had to be aquired by a taken out result.
Transformation can give permanent aspects. It may also be modeled as a block or even an attack leading to takeout. If you're turning someone into a quadruple amputee, you're going to need to take them out.
Seriously. Fit aspects to the effect not the effects to the aspect.
I knocked someone unconcious and tied them up. If I had to tag the aspect of tied up each exchange, would he then be able to just get up and walk away, as soon as I ran out of fate points.
If you've knocked them unconscious you've taken them out. If you've got someone tied up you should have a free tag on the Tied Up aspect which you can compel (or invoke for effect) once to get all the narrative effects of them being tied up (can't move, can't use hands, etc) for at least a scene. How long and exactly what the limitations are is negotiable - a contortionist will be less limited and get free sooner than most of us.
Bottom line with FATE games - only some of the mechanics are there to simulate an action or event. Others are for manipulating the narrative. Sometimes an aspect compel declaring a narrative result is all you need. When the desired result is being actively resisted, it's probably going to require a takeout via combat to force the issue.
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or: Desired Result: Make an Armored vest (can be accomplished via craftsmanship or resources) Say challenge rating 4 or so as the Thaumaturgical equivalent of a simple action (YS263 - 264) then simply add shifts of power to increase duration.
But if (for some reason) the character wants this item to be permanent then you are looking at an Item of Power. Remember that a person can have more than 1 Item of Power but only gets the points from 1. So an Item of Power (+0) with out any powers attached to it would still have the base trappings of the Item of Power ( "it is what it is" etc.) A lenient GM may allow a person to be able to "Purchase" this threw an adventure or something similar. Also remember that an Item of power requires an aspect to support it. SO the real question boils down to just how important is this vest to your player? Part of his character? fits into an aspect? then item of power. If not then an item that needs to be periodically recharged. (either an Enchanted Item or sustained spell effect). To the best of my knowledge no other options are supported by the rules.
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To the best of my knowledge no other options are supported by the rules.
One could argue that other options are supported by the rules, but not explicitly stated. Since the rules regularly state that one should reduce rules use in instances that have no benefit (I.E. skipping rolls that are boring, allowing players access to anything that they reasonably should have, skipping scenes that are unnecessary, allowing the players to add personal advantage if it gains greater narrative, etc) one could say that a player wanting a magic Kevlar vest that has no benefit beyond a normal Kevlar vest shouldn't have extra rules to get there.
Then again, at this point I'm kinda just being argumentative for it's own sake.
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SO the real question boils down to just how important is this vest to your player? Part of his character? fits into an aspect? then item of power. If not then an item that needs to be periodically recharged. (either an Enchanted Item or sustained spell effect). To the best of my knowledge no other options are supported by the rules.
I think you're forgetting FATE has rules for affecting both actions and narrative.
A functionally identical 'kevlar vest' could be built thread by thread with Craftsmanship or Lore (Thaumaturgy) or it could simply be purchased with Resources. A narratively identical vest could be used through aspect - either temporary or permanent. Similar armor items could be made via evocation blocks, item enchantments, thaumaturgical ward spells (there's no reason your 'traps' have to be offensive), or by spending fate/refresh on a power. I wouldn't be surprised if I've missed a few other possibilities. ;) That's why it's often easiest to work backwards from effect to mechanics.
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Okay, forgive me if I'm wrong, but the impression I'm getting is he wants something that...
A. Looks like a regular coat,
B. Resists bullets through magic power,
C. Is lasting and always-on,
D. Doesn't cost fate points to use,
And E. Doesn't cost Enchanted Item slots.
If all of that is the case, that simply isn't working within the game system. Armor of any type--really, an advantage of any type--should have some kind of cost: either refresh in the case of powers, item slots in the case of magic armor, a short life in the case of magic effects, or inconvenience in the case of mundane armor.
To paraphrase Sanctaphrax, if there's no cost/disadvantage/downside, why doesn't everyone do it?
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Is there a mundane material that is as strong as kevlar as flexible? If so, then I'd have no problem with him working out a Thaumaturgy rite to do the transformation. Of it would have be complicated enough to do a Great or Suburb job plus have enough steps to devote to duration. Say 13 steps to make it last a year, fewer if he wanted it to last less than that. Call it 18 steps or so total.
This leaves him with a coat that can be transformed back by being counterspelled. Something that has mundanes going "Hey, why didn't that bullet go through your coat?" whenever he gets shot. Oh, and the coat can be aimed around.
That's if there's a substance like that. I think I've heard one made out of genetically spliced goats - ones that produce a spider silk like material.
Here's an article about that http://www.geek.com/articles/geek-cetera/spider-silk-and-goat-milk-can-make-human-skin-bulletproof-20110815/ (http://www.geek.com/articles/geek-cetera/spider-silk-and-goat-milk-can-make-human-skin-bulletproof-20110815/) - but I'd rule that you'd need a high Scholarship (and maybe Scholarship stunts) to understand the material well enough to make it. And most of the information in "Can I conjure a Sword?" would still apply to the coat.
An enchanted item (Harry's Duster) or IoP would probably be a better way of getting there.
Richard
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Here's an article about that http://www.geek.com/articles/geek-cetera/spider-silk-and-goat-milk-can-make-human-skin-bulletproof-20110815/ (http://www.geek.com/articles/geek-cetera/spider-silk-and-goat-milk-can-make-human-skin-bulletproof-20110815/) -
OK, That's totally freaky. I have to read this now.
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It's still in the "We think this will work - once we iron out the bugs" phase. If memory serves they've been talking about it since the mid 90s.
And that's the only flexible armour I could think of.
Richard