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The Dresden Files => DF Spoilers => Topic started by: Grifter on July 27, 2020, 07:11:23 PM
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We were debating this in the 'What is Lara's problem?' thread but I wanted to get a larger consensus and not derail that thread.
A known issue for Wamps is that they have to feed regularly. Another known issue for Wamps is that if they exhaust too much energy (a la Thomas getting beaten in Peace Talks), their demon can go full parasite and devour the host.
My proposal is this: an artificial reservoir for lust energy.
Benefit:
If a Wamp gets dangerously low on energy, he could tap the reservoir for either a boost to continue fighting, or to sate the hunger of the demon to prevent it from feeding on themselves. It would effectively help a Wamp exceed their own natural reservoir of energy limitations, which is apparently a thing.
Drawback:
A small percentage of energy would be syphoned from the feeding, and it would potentially go to waste if unused. It would presumably need to be recharged regularly, as most enchanted items do.
Components:
- An enchanted item that can act as a reservoir for energy, similar to Harry's bear belt buckle (Gravel Peril).
- An enchantment that would syphon a small percentage of lust-fueled spiritual energy when the Wamp feeds, similar to Harry's rings absorbing kinetic energy.
- Optionally, a thaumaturgic link between a bunch of these items and a Queen item that would get a percentage of the percentage from each of the others. (Not advertised to the masses, but maybe 1% of 1%?)
- A wizard/sorcerer/being experienced enough and inclined enough (via favor/payment) to help create the enchantment, but not at a cost so steep that Lara would be unwilling to pay it.
Concerns noted by vultur so far:
- Can lust energy be stored?
- Can a wamp feed on stored lust energy?
For the first, I'd argue yes. In Storm Front, Harry commented that Victor Sells' lake house was surrounded by an aura of lust and fear and hate. This would suggest that the lust energy used in Sells' spell was capable of being transferred to an area/object even without the intent to do so.
For the second, I'd argue yes. Lara is able to feed Thomas in Peace Talks without invoking lust.
'Usable' Energies stored so far:
- Kinetic energy in rings
- Kinetic energy in the staff
- Raw spirit energy of life in the bear belt buckle
- Knowledge/wisdom in Margaret's ruby
- Sunshine in a hankerchief
Query:
- Do we think this is possible?
- Do we think this would be beneficial?
- Do we think it would be worth the cost/time/effort?
Relevant text:
It seethed with negative energy, anger and pride and lust. Especially lust. Lust for wealth, lust for power, more than physical desire.
It seems like the lust was mostly Sells' own desire for power, but the text suggests that there was physical desire as well. Debatable, though.
I touched my left hand to my belt buckle and whispered, “Fortius.” Power rushed into the pit of my stomach, a sudden tide of hot, living energy, nitrous for the body, mind, and soul. Raw life radiated out into my bones, running riot through my limbs. My confusion and weariness and pain vanished as swiftly as darkness before the sunrise. This was no simple adrenaline boost, either, though that was a part of it. Call it chi or mana or one of thousand other names for it—it was pure magic, the very essence of life energy itself. It poured into me from the reservoir I’d created in the silver of the buckle. My heart suddenly overflowed with excitement, my thoughts with hope, confidence, and eager anticipation, and if I had a personal soundtrack to my life it would have been playing Ode to Joy while a stadium of Harry fans did the wave. It was all I could do to stop myself from bursting into laughter or song.
Raw spirit can be stored, and it can induce an emotional reaction in the bearer.
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It was only used once and I think Jim did his best to forget about it.
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It was only used once and I think Jim did his best to forget about it.
The same could be said about a bunch of things, until they come back around.
Heart explody spell book one, bloodline curse book twelve.
Gray background dude spell book two, most powerful beings barely notice me dude spell book sixteen.
Bringing things back around but in bigger scale is kind of becoming a thing. And Harry now has, assuming Thomas survives and still has his hunger demon, a motivation to help Thomas never get so weak again.
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My proposal is this: an artificial reservoir for lust energy.
I'm not saying your idea is unworkable, but I suspect a wizard; and maybe more than one, would have to set it up for them and that's not terribly likely.
In a more practical sense, wasn't Club Zero set up for exactly the same reason? It's a place any House Raith White Court vamp can go to fill up the tank when they don't want to waste time finding new victims.
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I'm not saying your idea is unworkable, but I suspect a wizard; and maybe more than one, would have to set it up for them and that's not terribly likely.
In a more practical sense, wasn't Club Zero set up for exactly the same reason? It's a place any House Raith White Court vamp can go to fill up the tank when they don't want to waste time finding new victims.
A wizard seems most likely, but I think there are others capable. Monoc, the Summer Court, and the Svartalves are all good at different types of magic and enchantments. And the Svartalves trade in sex and craft items. So there would be options.
As for Club Zero, that does them no good when they're in a fight or near death like Thomas is.
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There's also the question of can WCVs fill their tanks. If they can't fill their tanks, they don't need a gas can.
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There's also the question of can WCVs fill their tanks. If they can't fill their tanks, they don't need a gas can.
What do you mean? I think the item would be the source of the power and the wamp would feed from it. It wouldn't give the host the power for the demon to then feed from. That probably wouldn't be healthy.
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Tank is an analogy for a WCV's store of energy. A gas can is something that one uses to fill a gas tank. In the analogy, a gas can would be the device you suggest. What I'm saying is that if a WCV cannot fill up his reservoir of energy, but just ad more and more as he feeds, then the gas can would be pointless.
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Tank is an analogy for a WCV's store of energy. A gas can is something that one uses to fill a gas tank. In the analogy, a gas can would be the device you suggest. What I'm saying is that if a WCV cannot fill up his reservoir of energy, but just ad more and more as he feeds, then the gas can would be pointless.
A gas can wouldn't fill most tanks. But if the tank runs out, it can put some fuel in to keep it running until you can get it to the gas station.
What you're saying is that it'd do no good to put a couple gallons into a tank running on fumes, because what's the point if it can't fill it? :o
Thomas's tank ran dry in PT, to the point that he was running on fumes. In this analogy, Lara managed to syphon gas from her own running car to put some gas in Thomas's tank to keep it running. In the process she left herself running low on gas, either due to having a small tank herself, or spilling a lot in an unorthodox transfer method.
What I'm proposing is a small gas can that's kept in the trunk, and if the tank gets low, then it can be used in an emergency. And if Lara showed up with her own reserve, they could put even more in, to prevent Thomas's engine from dying.
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No he's saying that if Wampires have no upper limit to how much they can hold, why would they bother with a back-up tank, since that energy can just be kept in the main tank.
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The argument being touted elsewhere is that Lara was weak and drained at the end of PT because her tank was empty because her tank isn't as big as Thomas's.
Otherwise there's not much explanation for her empty tank when she'd had an orgy and fed off a guard all within hours of feeding Thomas. The only suitable explanation at that point would be that there's nearly 100% energy loss in their feedin nursing method.
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No he's saying that if Wampires have no upper limit to how much they can hold, why would they bother with a back-up tank, since that energy can just be kept in the main tank.
Something like that. Any mechanism that prevents the tank filling up in a manner that would make it better to just feed more than it would have an external reservoir. I'm not saying that's the case. I'm saying it's an additional practical concern regarding the feasibility of making a gas can.
The argument being touted elsewhere is that Lara was weak and drained at the end of PT because her tank was empty because her tank isn't as big as Thomas's.
Sure, but not by me. A thought occurs to me that the difference between one wamp and another might be about fuel efficiency instead of the tank's capacity. Both is more likely than either/or.
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Something like that. Any mechanism that prevents the tank filling up in a manner that would make it better to just feed more than it would have an external reservoir. I'm not saying that's the case. I'm saying it's an additional practical concern regarding the feasibility of making a gas can.
Sure, but not by me. A thought occurs to me that the difference between one wamp and another might be about fuel efficiency instead of the tank's capacity. Both is more likely than either/or.
I think it works either way.
We know that the "Hunger" of Wamps is variable, and how Lord Raith established dominance. I don't think we know the exact nature of that, because we're used to thinking of hunger as a state rather than a force.
Maybe the "Hunger" is equivalent to allure, and his ability to overwhelm the senses of others is his only advantage. Maybe there's no top to the tank, and it can be infinite storage for any wamp.
But clearly it doesn't work that way, seeing how often Wamps run out. Thomas has been drained numerous times, Lara's sisters needed immediate feeding after the battle with the Naagloshi, and Lara was spent after feeding Thomas.
Wamps just don't seem to have the ability to sustain their power without constant feeding. Except for Lord Raith, who managed it for almost thirty years.
So I'd still argue that them having a snack pack in reserve would be valuable.
It's basic banking. You can keep all your money in your debit account, but if you do that, you might find yourself overdrafting due to poor budgeting and an untimely expense.
Putting some money into savings as you go might mean a little less to spend along the way, but over time you get used to the budget, and then if something happens, you've got a reserve to draw from.
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Concerns noted by vultur so far:
- Can lust energy be stored?
- Can a wamp feed on stored lust energy?
Well, that's not exactly what my issue with this is.
I am not convinced that there is really such a thing as "lust energy" in the Dresdenverse. I think the White Court Vampires use emotions* to access life force from a person/being. Not that the emotion itself is the energy.
Similarly with Sells, or Harry using his rage in a spell. When Harry does that it still draws on his own energy... Harry almost kills himself in GP with an anger fueled spell ("Pyrofuego") because he just about used up all his own life force.
For the second, I'd argue yes. Lara is able to feed Thomas in Peace Talks without invoking lust.
The lust bit is not as central as it seems, Raith are not absolutely locked into feeding on just one emotion. (Madrigal Raith can use fear, from WN.) There's a WOJ that the Houses feeding on specific emotions is as much cultural/political as anything.
But I think you need life capable of emotions. I really doubt that Lara or Thomas could feed on, say, Sells' lake house.
'Usable' Energies stored so far:
See I'm not sure this is the right model (different kinds of stored energies).
I think the magical energy is just magical energy, all the same kind. The different items just use it in different ways. It's the same thing as how a computer and air conditioner and microwave and lightbulb all run on electricity, IMO.
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Well, that's not exactly what my issue with this is.
I am not convinced that there is really such a thing as "lust energy" in the Dresdenverse. I think the White Court Vampires use emotions* to access life force from a person/being. Not that the emotion itself is the energy.
Similarly with Sells, or Harry using his rage in a spell. When Harry does that it still draws on his own energy... Harry almost kills himself in GP with an anger fueled spell ("Pyrofuego") because he just about used up all his own life force.
The lust bit is not as central as it seems, Raith are not absolutely locked into feeding on just one emotion. (Madrigal Raith can use fear, from WN.) There's a WOJ that the Houses feeding on specific emotions is as much cultural/political as anything.
But I think you need life capable of emotions. I really doubt that Lara or Thomas could feed on, say, Sells' lake house.
See I'm not sure this is the right model (different kinds of stored energies).
I think the magical energy is just magical energy, all the same kind. The different items just use it in different ways. It's the same thing as how a computer and air conditioner and microwave and lightbulb all run on electricity, IMO.
Sure, but we've seen storage of energy retain the traits of the origin, like the sunlight in the hanky and the kinetic energy and any other spell or or potion Harry has made. If the vessel were designed to store spirit energy in the form it was gathered, wouldn't it remain consumable?
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If the vessel were designed to store spirit energy in the form it was gathered, wouldn't it remain consumable?
Probably not.
Sure, a wizard could probably make an item that accumulated emotions as magical energy and could release blasts of emotion - like Elaine's memory-storage ring in SK.
But wizards' ability to work with magical energy is much more "broad spectrum".
If Elaine made an emotion-storage ring instead of a memory-storage one, I don't think a WCV could feed on it.
Because I don't think the WCVs actually feed on emotions themselves - instead they use the emotion as a "conduit" to feed on life force. The WCV power is a lot more narrowly limited than the wizard's one, and I don't think it can interface with items.
I think there's just no way for them to get around the need to feed.
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Probably not.
Sure, a wizard could probably make an item that accumulated emotions as magical energy and could release blasts of emotion - like Elaine's memory-storage ring in SK.
But wizards' ability to work with magical energy is much more "broad spectrum".
If Elaine made an emotion-storage ring instead of a memory-storage one, I don't think a WCV could feed on it.
Because I don't think the WCVs actually feed on emotions themselves - instead they use the emotion as a "conduit" to feed on life force. The WCV power is a lot more narrowly limited than the wizard's one, and I don't think it can interface with items.
I think there's just no way for them to get around the need to feed.
I'm willing to accept that you can't see it being viable, but I'm still not seeing *why* you think that.
Spellwork and enchanted items have been shown to store energy in specific forms that also retain emotional responses.
Your take is that they need to feed on raw spiritual energy, which has been shown to be compatible with being bottled (belt buckle). It even invoked emotions, meaning it was 'flavored'.
You say they need the emotional aspect, but then you also say the emotional aspect doesn't really seem to matter. Like it's just a method for them to stoke the spirit and open the tap of the victim.
So if they don't need the emotional aspect, then the belt buckle would work for them as-is. It would just need to be designed to allow a wamp to draw on its energy, which I think could be done. If inanimate objects filled with power can hurt the wamp, like a True Love wedding ring, why can't inanimate objects filled with power be used to feed them?
If they do need the emotion, then it's just a matter of capturing the essence of the method. I think we've seen several times how Harry will calm the mind or settle himself because his emotions can taint his spellwork. So the wizard would have to design the item to do the opposite.
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I'm willing to accept that you can't see it being viable, but I'm still not seeing *why* you think that.
Three reasons:
Out-of-universe, it's too easy a fix; the White Court just aren't able to live as "normal people".
In-universe, if this was possible, why didn't Harry build something like this for Thomas when he was fighting his Hunger between BR and TC? Even if Harry didn't know enough about the Hunger's nature, Lara does; why didn't she suggest Harry do thaumaturgy to feed raw magic to Thomas' Hunger in PT?
In-universe, it doesn't really fit the way the feeding is described to work IMO. It's been described as merging auras with the prey. I think it needs an actual coherent aura/spirit of a sentient living being*, not just "X quantity of life-magic energy".
*Maybe a close-enough-to-mortal being ... we've seen it used on part-humans in "Backup" and "Bigfoot on Campus", but never on totally-inhuman things. Kind of doubt it would work on Bob or Kalshazzak or an Outsider.
Your take is that they need to feed on raw spiritual energy, which has been shown to be compatible with being bottled (belt buckle).
Not quite. I think what is being consumed is "generic" life force energy - not specifically fear energy or lust energy. But the mode of access to that energy isn't compatible with anything other than a near-human being... an item can't work since the item itself doesn't have a spirit or experience emotion.
Like it's just a method for them to stoke the spirit and open the tap of the victim.
Basically, yeah... Thomas' Hunger demon can eat his own life force directly. So the emotions provide access to energy not energy itself.
It's not like a person has separate stores of "lust energy" and "fear energy" and "despair energy" and so on. A person has a certain amount of life force, and there are different ways to access it. (Wizards & other spellcasters can draw on their own life force, sometimes using emotions, sometimes not.)
Someone drained to zero by the White Court dies; they don't become dispassionate or fearless or whatever. And in "Bigfoot on Campus" we see that a being with more life energy than the Hunger Demon can handle can survive a normally-fatal feeding. That pretty much confirms that it's "life force" not specifically "emotion type" energy.
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Three reasons:
Out-of-universe, it's too easy a fix; the White Court just aren't able to live as "normal people".
In-universe, if this was possible, why didn't Harry build something like this for Thomas when he was fighting his Hunger between BR and TC? Even if Harry didn't know enough about the Hunger's nature, Lara does; why didn't she suggest Harry do thaumaturgy to feed raw magic to Thomas' Hunger in PT?
In-universe, it doesn't really fit the way the feeding is described to work IMO. It's been described as merging auras with the prey. I think it needs an actual coherent aura/spirit of a sentient living being*, not just "X quantity of life-magic energy".
*Maybe a close-enough-to-mortal being ... we've seen it used on part-humans in "Backup" and "Bigfoot on Campus", but never on totally-inhuman things. Kind of doubt it would work on Bob or Kalshazzak or an Outsider.
Not quite. I think what is being consumed is "generic" life force energy - not specifically fear energy or lust energy. But the mode of access to that energy isn't compatible with anything other than a near-human being... an item can't work since the item itself doesn't have a spirit or experience emotion.
Basically, yeah... Thomas' Hunger demon can eat his own life force directly. So the emotions provide access to energy not energy itself.
It's not like a person has separate stores of "lust energy" and "fear energy" and "despair energy" and so on. A person has a certain amount of life force, and there are different ways to access it. (Wizards & other spellcasters can draw on their own life force, sometimes using emotions, sometimes not.)
Someone drained to zero by the White Court dies; they don't become dispassionate or fearless or whatever. And in "Bigfoot on Campus" we see that a being with more life energy than the Hunger Demon can handle can survive a normally-fatal feeding. That pretty much confirms that it's "life force" not specifically "emotion type" energy.
I still think you're misunderstanding the scope of this project. It's not to replace feeding. It's not to make feeding obsolete. In fact, it's still dependent on feeding normally, to stock up the item.
It's more like an energy bar for the demon to munch on if things get desperate. It could be used to continue a fight (briefly) that otherwise would be lost due to running out of energy, or to prevent the demon from turning on the host until they can get a regular feeding.
It wouldn't do anything to change the lifestyle of the wamp. It's not an alternative, it's a backup.
As for the energy, we'll just have to disagree on the storagability of the energy the wamp draws and feeds from.
The wamp would still be drawing out the energy in the usual method themselves. A little bit would just be directed to the item, which would store it as it is. Then, if they tapped into it, the energy would come out just like it went in. Just like other energy storage we've seen.
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I still think you're misunderstanding the scope of this project. It's not to replace feeding. It's not to make feeding obsolete. In fact, it's still dependent on feeding normally, to stock up the item.
The problem is that if this is possible - if a White Court Vampire can feed on energy stored in an inanimate object - then a wizard could just as easily fill up that object with energy drawn from a spell.
Harry uses "life force" energy in his spells too, he can even fuel them with emotions. It's the same energy. So the only way to keep this from happening, IMO, is if the Hunger demon is incapable of feeding on anything except a human or near-human (or at least sentient) being.
Sure, a WCV couldn't fill up the item itself without feeding (unless it was also a spellcaster). But that wouldn't keep Harry from being able to fill up such an item, if it could exist.
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The problem is that if this is possible - if a White Court Vampire can feed on energy stored in an inanimate object - then a wizard could just as easily fill up that object with energy drawn from a spell.
Harry uses "life force" energy in his spells too, he can even fuel them with emotions. It's the same energy. So the only way to keep this from happening, IMO, is if the Hunger demon is incapable of feeding on anything except a human or near-human (or at least sentient) being.
Sure, a WCV couldn't fill up the item itself without feeding (unless it was also a spellcaster). But that wouldn't keep Harry from being able to fill up such an item, if it could exist.
I'm not saying they can consume just any spiritual energy. I think they have a method that works for them, and that's what would have to be done to make the energy compatible. I think we're both in agreement that them being able to consume just any spiritual energy doesn't make sense.
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I don't know if anyone has stated this explicitly, but maybe it would be possible for a wizard to create some kind of spiritual tank to hold life force energy that a White Court vampire could partake from, but the only way to make it viable would be for the wizard to take another person's life force energy to make it work, that nothing else would do. So the guilt of taking this energy would be once removed from the vampire to the wizard, but wouldn't really absolve either party of doing this.
I'd probably have to add that the difficulty to the wizard of taking a small amount of life energy would make it uneconomical. Too much effort for too little return so they would in effect have to really drain if not always kill the victim. So maybe it would work but be just as bad.
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I'm not saying they can consume just any spiritual energy. I think they have a method that works for them, and that's what would have to be done to make the energy compatible. I think we're both in agreement that them being able to consume just any spiritual energy doesn't make sense.
OK.
I guess I just think that if they could feed on their own form of energy stored in an item, that would probably make them able to feed on "just any spiritual energy" indirectly, with help from a wizard (who could use thaumaturgy to move energy and transform the energy to the right form).
I mean, we don't know about DV magic-physics to say that for sure, but that seems to be how wizard magic is described - it's all about moving energy around (Harry says that this is the core principle of Eb's textbook "Elementary Magic").
For it not to be "cheatable" in this way, I think White Court Hunger has to be fundamentally different from wizard magic and actually require feeding on a living spirit. Once you add the ability to store power - or to derive energy from anything other than a living being with a spirit - I think you open it up for "cheating".