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The Dresden Files => DF Spoilers => Topic started by: OutsideIn on February 15, 2024, 07:09:06 AM
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Just because his babies held hostage in a way... Doesn't give you a free pass to murder. I think Thomas if he survives imprisonment. He'll die a martyr saving the day of some type..
The bill comes due...
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Just because his babies held hostage in a way... Doesn't give you a free pass to murder. I think Thomas if he survives imprisonment. He'll die a martyr saving the day of some type..
The bill comes due...
Don't know if Thomas will die a martyr or not, but currently he isn't getting a free pass for his crime. My theory is that somehow the Hunger demon will be sperated from him while he is imprisoned and he will end as a ordinary vanilla human.
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Wouldn't it be crazy if Thomas died saving Ebenezer...
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Thomas was the tool and Nemesis the true instigator of the attack on the Swartalves, it is Nemesis whom they have the beef with, we saw this in Bombshells.
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Thomas was the tool and Nemesis the true instigator of the attack on the Swartalves, it is Nemesis whom they have the beef with, we saw this in Bombshells.
Only Thomas & Harry (and Nemesis (and maybe Justine (if she's even in there anymore)) know this.
At one point in PT (I think, though maybe it was BG?) it was announced that Winter wouldn't be able to bring most of their forces to hit Ethniu & the Fomor armies, as they were needed to defend a major assault on the Outer Gates. Harry remarked that it was interesting to notice which parties reacted with awareness of exactly what that coordination implied, and which seemed oblivious.
We don't know if the Svartalves understand about the Outer gates, and/or Outsiders in general, and/or Nemesis in particular... I wouldn't bet against them, but AFAIK they've always been noted as tough/dangerous and as skilled crafters (in comparison, e.g., to Mab & Odin & Nicodemus, all of whom are noted as vastly more-dangerous (than their already extreme danger) because of how much they know).
So, even if Harry tried to tell Etri "It was Nemesis," that might not get Thomas off the hook with the Svartalf sense of justice/honor.
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At one point in PT (I think, though maybe it was BG?) it was announced that Winter wouldn't be able to bring most of their forces to hit Ethniu & the Fomor armies, as they were needed to defend a major assault on the Outer Gates. Harry remarked that it was interesting to notice which parties reacted with awareness of exactly what that coordination implied, and which seemed oblivious.
The thought occurred to me reading your post that none of this appears to be spontaneous, and has the smell and look of an inside job, years in the making. What I am wondering is whether or not Maeve did a lot more damage than even Mab thought while she was possessed by Nemesis? What took place in Cold Days was plan [A], but is it possible that Maeve was enough like her mother that she'd also have a plan in place? Plan being what took place in Peace Talks and Battle Ground, plans that were already set into motion whether or not Maeve survived plan [A].
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There was a plan in both books, but it was all a Nemesis plot. Maeve was just a willing tool until she was takenoff the board in Cold Days, then Nemesis shifted to Justine.
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The thought occurred to me reading your post that none of this appears to be spontaneous, and has the smell and look of an inside job, years in the making. What I am wondering is whether or not Maeve did a lot more damage than even Mab thought while she was possessed by Nemesis? What took place in Cold Days was plan [A], but is it possible that Maeve was enough like her mother that she'd also have a plan in place? Plan being what took place in Peace Talks and Battle Ground, plans that were already set into motion whether or not Maeve survived plan [A].
The Fomor were... well, to be frank they were stunningly fast to make their power-play at the fall of the Red Court. The big old powers just don't like to move that fast, but (as per the Murphy-POV story Aftermath) the Fomor appear to have begun their "kidnap the Talented Mortals" plan about the same time that the Red Court took little Maggie. I conclude that they expected either the Red Court or the White Council to fall, and to then take advantage of whichever power-vacuum occurred.
I presume it was Ethniu's plan all along to have the Fomor be this "troublesome young punk" among the power-players, and arrange for "Peace Talks," and bring the Titanic WMD to a diplomat-fight.
That must have been in the planning stages for years.
I don't think we have any sign Maeve was involved in that side of things. It has seemed to me that the different instances of Nemesis usually keep their separate initiatives wholly-separate. Apocalypse, after all, is more a state of mind...
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I don't think we have any sign Maeve was involved in that side of things. It has seemed to me that the different instances of Nemesis usually keep their separate initiatives wholly-separate. Apocalypse, after all, is more a state of mind...
Except we don't have a clear picture of what Maeve was really up to. As far as the Former goes, they weren't really a surprise, and remember early on in the books Harry talks of "cat's paws" and powers behind powers. Yes, the Former were one of them, but it is a bit surprising how easily they were defeated considering..
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Except we don't have a clear picture of what Maeve was really up to ...
No, we don't.
It looked like she just wanted to Beat the Queen (defeat -- and impress -- her Mommy Dearest). There could easily have been more to it than that; it even seems likely. But we don't know.
There's also the issue of Nemfection -- what was Nemesis up to? Was Maeve even aware of it? Maybe all the disruption Maeve caused was the bulk of Nemesis' plan (never really expecting the "jailbreak" to succeed). Maybe the jailbreak was the main plan, and the murderous Mantle-swap just a last-ditch scramble to salvage something, and an "F-U" aimed personally at Mab.
We just don't know.
... As far as the Former goes, they weren't really a surprise...
The Fomor were well-known.
I think Ethniu -- and the Eye -- were surprises (at least to most there).
... but it is a bit surprising how easily they were defeated considering.
Remember: Harry hauled out TWO major artifacts. These were items that (to Harry's perceptions) outclassed the Swords of the Cross (which apparently have actual Angels in them); so "how easily they were defeated" is "not at all easily."
There is every sign that -- if Harry hadn't had the Spear to pull out at the last minute -- Ethniu and the Fomor would have won.
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There is every sign that -- if Harry hadn't had the Spear to pull out at the last minute -- Ethniu and the Fomor would have won.
But without Ethniu would the Fomor even of had a chance? Or rather much of a chance? She was their bad ass terror weapon with a very nasty eye, without her the Fomor were really quite run of the mill in the Dresdenverse.
Funny how Harry stumbles into things, needing to face the Senior Council? Make a bond with the island with no clue of the repercussion of what he is doing, wakes up a couple of books later to discover that he is Warden of a Prison of some of the worst monsters his world has ever seen... And also finds out that he has the power to incarcerate more monsters if need be with in range... Pretty handy for controlling a Titian running amuck.. Reluctantly goes down into the security vault of Hades because Mab owes Nic a favor, happens to find and recognize the Spear of Destiny and a couple of other useful trinkets, which were very useful in dealing with a very nasty Titian a book or so later.. Turns out it was Harry verses the Fomor and Harry verses the Titian, no Harry, the Fomor win.. However I don't think Harry realizes that just yet, at least not fully, but the White Council realizes it, that's what has them pooping their pants and wanting Harry dead.
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I mean, Thomas is going to spend an indeterminate amount of time on Hell Island reliving everything he did to his victims. If anything, he's being overly-punished and anyone that finds out is gonna think that Dresden has absolutely zero chill.
But without Ethniu would the Fomor even of had a chance? Or rather much of a chance? She was their bad ass terror weapon with a very nasty eye, without her the Fomor were really quite run of the mill in the Dresdenverse.
Like, you say that, but apparently these rejects and outcasts have been literally shitting all over every faction in the Dresden Files for literally years at this point, doing whatever they want without any response because reasons, with no Titan in site until Peace Talks.
The entire reason they even had the Peace Talks is because the Formor were shit-stomping all the Accorded Nations simultaneously. Somehow.
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I mean, Thomas is going to spend an indeterminate amount of time on Hell Island reliving everything he did to his victims. If anything, he's being overly-punished and anyone that finds out is gonna think that Dresden has absolutely zero chill.
Really? At the end of the day regardless of his motive, he allegedly committed murder. He hasn't had a trial yet, so his punishment hasn't been set. Currently he is where he is to keep him alive until he can be put on trial. And yes, Thomas has numerous victims, as a vampire he did kill.. Lara would call them kine, and Thomas is no different than any other predator, an argument can be made for that. However they were also people, and his last kill had nothing to do with food to survive.
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Whether Thomas faces further punishment upon being cured and released from Demonreach is dependent on how clued in the Swartalves are about Nemesis.
If they're in the know, he may be let off by paying weregild. If not, then it will take significantly more to appease them. At the extreme and short of death, they may insist on Thomas's child being raised by them (Assuming said child can be saved and is free of Nemesis taint.)
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Whether Thomas faces further punishment upon being cured and released from Demonreach is dependent on how clued in the Swartalves are about Nemesis.
If they're in the know, he may be let off by paying weregild. If not, then it will take significantly more to appease them. At the extreme and short of death, they may insist on Thomas's child being raised by them (Assuming said child can be saved and is free of Nemesis taint.)
All of that is true, I think it will be more of a question of what becomes of Thomas? Even if the Swartalves understand and are satisfied with a weregild, what is the effect on Thomas? Will he become fully human because the island somehow has separated
out the Hunger Demon and imprisoned it? Will Thomas still feel guilty? Will he become obsessed with finding Justine? What of their child? And what will Lara think or do about any of this?
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Really? At the end of the day regardless of his motive, he allegedly committed murder. He hasn't had a trial yet, so his punishment hasn't been set. Currently he is where he is to keep him alive until he can be put on trial. And yes, Thomas has numerous victims, as a vampire he did kill.. Lara would call them kine, and Thomas is no different than any other predator, an argument can be made for that. However they were also people, and his last kill had nothing to do with food to survive.
I know, but I'm just saying that, even if Thomas somehow makes it out of Demonreach in once peace, he'll have spent over a year minimum being psychically tortured by that point.
Like, that's probably more then sufficient for most people.
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I know, but I'm just saying that, even if Thomas somehow makes it out of Demonreach in once peace, he'll have spent over a year minimum being psychically tortured by that point.
Like, that's probably more then sufficient for most people.
Is it? Sufficient for people maybe, but for politics of the supernatural? It may not be.
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Just because his babies held hostage in a way... Doesn't give you a free pass to murder...
No, it doesn't give you a "free pass."
But we have seen that the Sartalves really, really value their children...
If Thomas could somehow prove that he intentionally "missed" Etri (could have killed him but didn't) in an action of an Outsider-war and in protection of his child... then they might be willing to accept weregild. Not exactly happy about it, but they could see how they might be driven to similar extremity by a similar threat to their own child(ren).
Maybe...
(I admit it's a stretch).
Maybe Harry could hire Maximillian Valerious to plead the case...?
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No, it doesn't give you a "free pass."
But we have seen that the Sartalves really, really value their children...
If Thomas could somehow prove that he intentionally "missed" Etri (could have killed him but didn't) in an action of an Outsider-war and in protection of his child... then they might be willing to accept weregild. Not exactly happy about it, but they could see how they might be driven to similar extremity by a similar threat to their own child(ren).
Maybe...
(I admit it's a stretch).
Maybe Harry could hire Maximillian Valerious to plead the case...?
Actually I could see him doing that and may be the very reason he was introduced in that short story. Thomas did commit murder, regardless of his motives for doing it. However his motives might be considered mitigating enough that a great lawyer such as Maximillian Valerious might be able to arrange a plea deal with the Sartalves where time served on Demonreach and a wereguild might be accepted. However then how much would they demand? I can see the Raiths being made bankrupt by the amount demanded, setting off a power struggle in the White Court.
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I suspect the only way Thomas is forgiven by the Swartalves is if he does something that evens the score, or balances the scales, in their eyes. That along with an explanation of why Thomas did what he did earlier. I think Thomas has to do something stunning and unexpected like save Mr. Etri; and probably other members of Etri's family, from certain death.
Assuming Etri and company ever need rescuing, it might be easier for Thomas to do so if he gets an upgrade, like getting to wield Amoracchius. Sanya took up Esperacchius in part to redeem himself for the things he did when he carried Magog's coin. So, an example in the Dresdenverse has already been set for Thomas to follow. And it just so happens the Warden of the very place where Thomas is imprisoned has the means to offer Thomas the sword. Finally, it would make Thomas into an ally of another Knight who wields a weapon which could probably drive out and possibly harm or even destroy Nemesis without harming Justine or her unborn child. I don't think Jim would allow Nemesis to be destroyed at this point in the overall story, but driven out of Justine and given a real scare, I could see that being a real possibility.
To me, this idea is such a natural fit that Jim might not want to do it; and I hate to use this phrase because of the negative connotation it can sometimes have, instead Jim might decide to subvert our expectations, or at least my expectation. According to the page that's labeled "Upcoming Works" Jim is only about half way done writing Twelves Months. If Thomas gets the upgrade I suggested, I think it would probably occur near the end of that book. So, we have a while to wait before we find out.
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Possible, what I see though is the island separating the Hunger Demon from the very human Thomas. I remember the image that Harry saw in his soul gaze of Thomas, his struggle with the Hunger Demon, and the Demon winning. Also without the Demon, the image that was left was a very weak, very human.. The image was of a ninety pound weakling, not the handsome sexy vampire that is a member of the White Court. I think Jim put that image there for a reason, and if a vanilla human emerges from the island, it make it very interesting. Imagine a very human Thomas having to deal with being very ordinary. And who knows? It may be his happy ending, if he and Harry find Justine and she is no longer possessed by a Walker. She has had her baby who isn't possessed by the Hunger Demon because Thomas really isn't it's father. So they become an ordinary vanilla loving family, what ending could be happier?
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... Possible, what I see though is the island separating the Hunger Demon from the very human Thomas ...
I have seen this theory before.
I am extremely dubious about it.
I think Jim has written some of these Big Deal(tm) artifacts -- like the Island / the well -- as much more "Big Guns," and not really capable, not really relevant, to such a fine discrimination as filtering a Whampire Hunger Demon out of a human being. I doubt Alfred would even comprehend the request.
That being said... the dominant Whampire form seems to be Lust, with relatively few feeding from despair or fear. And these Lust demons are profoundly-subject to Love; someone in Love burns them on-contact, and if a proto-Whamp makes love to someone they genuinely love... that burns away the Hunger Demon forever.
And lo, we have Chekhov's Amoracchius, the Sword of Love.
If Thomas is to be de-Whampired, my bet is on Amoracchius to do the job. Because while an Angel is a "Big Gun," they're also (very much) capable of the sort of "fine discrimination" that I don't see Demonreach achieving.
And then we'd have a modern Elric (Moorcock's tormented, white, sword-wielding / frail-without-sword guy) ... which could be a bit tempting for Jim... ;-)
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I think Jim has written some of these Big Deal(tm) artifacts -- like the Island / the well -- as much more "Big Guns," and not really capable, not really relevant, to such a fine discrimination as filtering a Whampire Hunger Demon out of a human being. I doubt Alfred would even comprehend the request.
I wouldn't sell Alfred short on that, and I do think the Sword of Love will also have something to do with it. We will have to see..
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My money's on Lea, she has after all shown the ability to target Red Court parasites without serious harm to the human being parasited. Why not a full removal on a white, as her 'redemption' (and presumably by Harry making a deal, because that would give just enough pain to him during an otherwise significant triumph).
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My money's on Lea, she has after all shown the ability to target Red Court parasites without serious harm to the human being parasited. Why not a full removal on a white, as her 'redemption' (and presumably by Harry making a deal, because that would give just enough pain to him during an otherwise significant triumph).
The problem with that is Red Court vampires were different than White Court vampires, only thing in common was both are a form of vampire. Dogs and cats are both mammals, but they are very different animals, some things in common but they cannot be treated the same way. So it doesn't necessarily follow that just because Lea could deal with a Red Court Vamp that she could do the same with a White Court Vamp.
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I wouldn't sell Alfred short on that ...
Alfred consistently shows a very stolid presence, and he often doesn't "get" some things Harry says to him. He -- it, really -- has tremendous amount of power, but specifically only grasps things & applies the power to what's in his own domain.
Imprisoning Thomas is clearly within the scope of that.
Finely sorting through the elements of Thomas' soul, disentangling the Hunger Demon (that was inborn, part of him from birth) is a much-more delicate sort of thing, and IIRC we've ever seen Alfred show any such abilities.
... We will have to see..
As we always have to, yes. ???
Jim hasn't written it yet (I presume -- maybe Thomas is getting out in Twelve Months, but I'm betting not! But fwiw that book is at 50% complete, per Jim's "upcoming works" page; I'm also betting on Thomas still being "on ice" in Mirror Mirror).
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The problem with that is Red Court vampires were different than White Court vampires, only thing in common was both are a form of vampire...
I'd phrase that even more strongly: Rampires & Whampires are entirely-different (and unrelated) sorts of beings. Whampire children are born to whampire parents; they are a human with a Whamp hunger-demon inside. Rampires are a parasitic infection, inflicted by other Rampires; the hatching young kills the human.
We call them both "vampires" but that's lumping them together for our own convenience.
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Alfred consistently shows a very stolid presence, and he often doesn't "get" some things Harry says to him. He -- it, really -- has tremendous amount of power, but specifically only grasps things & applies the power to what's in his own domain.
Imprisoning Thomas is clearly within the scope of that.
Alfred may not understand or always get what Harry says to him, but he understands monsters. So it may turn out that if Harry orders him to free Thomas, he will do just that, free Thomas.. However the Hunger Demon will remain in prison because it is a monster, an unintended consequence.
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Alfred may not understand or always get what Harry says to him, but he understands monsters. So it may turn out that if Harry orders him to free Thomas, he will do just that, free Thomas.. However the Hunger Demon will remain in prison because it is a monster, an unintended consequence.
I think Demonreach is more Mab-ish, here. It might be able to remove the Hunger Demon... but that would almost-certainly destroy Thomas' mind & psyche (WoJ has explicitly addressed Mab doing so).
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I think Demonreach is more Mab-ish, here. It might be able to remove the Hunger Demon... but that would almost-certainly destroy Thomas' mind & psyche (WoJ has explicitly addressed Mab doing so).
Do you have the WOJ on that? It isn't that I don't doubt you, I just haven't seen it. Though maybe it is because it is early and I've had only one cup of coffee, but this reads like two different cases to me. Alfred doing it may seem Mab-ish, but it doesn't follow that it would have the same effect as if Mab had done it.. I keep returning to the image of the soul gaze in Blood Rites, the slight vanilla human fighting and losing the fight to the Hunger Demon. I think motive is important, Mab is ruthless, and if she were to remove the Hunger Demon it would be for her own reasons with a disregard for what it would do to Thomas. I don't know, after a stretch of confronting his sins on the island, Thomas might need to be separated from the Hunger Demon to remain sane. Being a vampire may no longer be an option for him.. He has made failed attempts to live as a vanilla human in the past, though possibly solely to please Harry. But remember when he lived with him he almost starved to death because he didn't feed the Demon, then tried to appease it by nibbling while being a hair dresser. The Shaggy got a hold of him and did a huge amount of damage to his psyche, then in her efforts to heal him, Lara pushed Thomas back into the being a vampire and being proud of it..
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Do you have the WOJ on that? It isn't that I don't doubt you, I just haven't seen it...
... She could rip that thing right out of Thomas. Not that there would be much of Thomas left after she was done. Mab’s not particularly gentle that way. It’s possible that there might be some way to get out of it, maybe, but what fun would that be?
https://wordof.jim-butcher.com/index.php/word-of-jim-woj-compilation/woj-on-the-fae/
... this reads like two different cases to me. Alfred doing it may seem Mab-ish, but it doesn't follow that it would have the same effect as if Mab had done it.. I keep returning to the image of the soul gaze in Blood Rites, the slight vanilla human fighting and losing the fight to the Hunger Demon ...
It absolutely is two separate cases. But AFAIK, the "Mab case" is the only one we know of where Jim has said yes, that power could remove a whampire's hunger demon.
It's just that -- of the two of them -- I'd pick Mab as being more subtle & discriminating, more capable of being subtle and discriminating. Alfred tends not to do very much, but... when he does what he does it's big & potent and not at all subtle.
I'm not even clear Alfred is capable of noticing any difference between Thomas & his demon.
Stomp on an entity trying to breach the Well's security.
At the Warden's command, commit an entity to the Well.
Filter through the soul of a whampire whose Hunger Demon has been there since birth? Support said soul, as he performs psychic surgery to separate them? It just doesn't say "Alfred" to me.
Molly, now... Molly's an apt one to consider.
I could see a screwed-up plot-arc where Molly thinks the Lara/Harry romance deserves being "balanced" with a Thomas/Molly romance; both whampire & wizard.
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Thank you for the quote for starters.
... She could rip that thing right out of Thomas. Not that there would be much of Thomas left after she was done. Mab’s not particularly gentle that way. It’s possible that there might be some way to get out of it, maybe, but what fun would that be?
To me it says two things, 1] that yes, if it suited her, Mab would rip it right out of Thomas without consideration for him. Remember when she threatened Harry with making Thomas her Knight? Consider, would Mab want a White Court Vampire as her Winter Knight given the White Court has it's own agenda? No, I don't think so.. She also said since he was in love it made him "human" enough for her purpose. 2] Jim said the character would no longer be fun if Thomas became fully human. I don't see a date on the quote, so I don't know when he said it or what he was planning for Thomas at that time. However having Thomas locked up on Demonreach isn't much fun either is it? Jim also says, "there might be a way," so here is a way, let Alfred do it, and a very human Thomas who wants his love and child back might turn out to be a lot of fun indeed at this stage of the series.
It absolutely is two separate cases. But AFAIK, the "Mab case" is the only one we know of where Jim has said yes, that power could remove a whampire's hunger demon.
Aside from it being possibly burned out by true love before it has made it's first kill. At this point, this is the only one, but odd don't you think that Jim went to all that elaborate effort to put Thomas in prison on Demonreach reliving his murders and exposed to the "British Prisoner"?
I'm not even clear Alfred is capable of noticing any difference between Thomas & his demon.
I disagree, I think Merlin gave Alfred more awareness than you think he has, if not, there would have been huge problems during the long time periods when there was no Warden for the island.
Filter through the soul of a whampire whose Hunger Demon has been there since birth? Support said soul, as he performs psychic surgery to separate them? It just doesn't say "Alfred" to me.
However Thomas has already shown his soul to be more human than vampire on several occasions much to the dismay of Lara. Yes, I think Alfred is very capable of separating the monster from the human..
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... I don't see a date on the quote, so I don't know when he said it or what he was planning for Thomas at that time.
"2011 Naperville Signing" (says the WoJ document, about that quote).
It's a very good point, however, that Jim's ideas may have evolved in the dozen+ years since his off-the-cuff answers at a live event.
... However having Thomas locked up on Demonreach isn't much fun either is it? ...
But it's very very convenient, for the author... maybe he doesn't want to deal with Thomas for a book or three.
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"2011 Naperville Signing" (says the WoJ document, about that quote).
It's a very good point, however, that Jim's ideas may have evolved in the dozen+ years since his off-the-cuff answers at a live event.
Thanks for the date! Ghost Story was published in 2011, in that we have the scene where Justine brings home a girlfriend to have sex with so I imagine she and Thomas can have sex. That brings about big changes in the life of Thomas that climax in what happened in Peace Talks and Battle Ground. So the Thomas Jim was talking about up until that point isn't the same one we see now.
But it's very very convenient, for the author... maybe he doesn't want to deal with Thomas for a book or three.
I think that is a good guess, and I agree, but I also think it bodes for big changes for Thomas. That's why I think somehow he will become fully human if he survives imprisonment. Otherwise why bother? Why go through all of that for Thomas to return basically the same White Court Vampire that is Harry's brother? I mean if he wanted to that, he could have left him a prisoner of the Elves, getting though a trial, maybe remaining in prison, but without the torment of reliving his crimes that he is undergoing now. Thomas may even beg to have the demon removed even if it may kill him to do it. It does set up conflict between Harry and Lara, she won't stand for Thomas remaining in limbo for very long, nor will she be very happy and could very well blame Harry if Thomas rejects his vampire status. I don't see any other future for Thomas that makes sense if Jim wasn't going to kill him off outright. I am also not all that excited about conflict between Thomas and Eb, though it will be useful in explaining what Eb's vendetta against vampires is all about.. But why so elaborate?
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Lara may be anxious about Thomas, but she won't blame Harry for his condition. She's very practical, does love her family and realizes that not only did Harry not cause this injury to Thomas, but that she forced Harry into considerable danger in saving Thomas' life from the Svartalves and hiding him on the island.
I also think Thomas can remain a vampire and still wield a Sword. We've already seen Susan use one on a mission of love to save her daughter. Thomas can use the same Sword of Love to save the souls of Justine and his child. What happens after that is open. Perhaps prolonged exposure to the Sword will change the nature of his demon. Or maybe he's only a Knight for that mission since we've been told that being a long-term sword wielder is not the normal. Maybe they get rid of Papa Raith and Thomas becomes the new White King and Lara becomes Harry's sidekick.
I'm sure all these guesses are wrong but until Jim tells the story, WAGs are all we've got.
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Lara may be anxious about Thomas, but she won't blame Harry for his condition. She's very practical, does love her family and realizes that not only did Harry not cause this injury to Thomas, but that she forced Harry into considerable danger in saving Thomas' life from the Svartalves and hiding him on the island.
However when Harry did imprison Thomas she flew into a rage and would have killed him if she could if the island's defenses hadn't made that impossible. We really don't know what she does or doesn't blame Harry for.
I also think Thomas can remain a vampire and still wield a Sword. We've already seen Susan use one on a mission of love to save her daughter. Thomas can use the same Sword of Love to save the souls of Justine and his child. What happens after that is open. Perhaps prolonged exposure to the Sword will change the nature of his demon. Or maybe he's only a Knight for that mission since we've been told that being a long-term sword wielder is not the normal. Maybe they get rid of Papa Raith and Thomas becomes the new White King and Lara becomes Harry's sidekick.
Possible, and has been theorized before, a couple of things are different between Susan and Thomas. A Red Court Vampire is a totally different creature from a White Court Vampire, weird addictive addiction verses an actual demon parasite that feeds on emotion, still maybe possible.. However another problem, anything having to do with true love burns the crap out of the demon. Yeah, I get that Justine having sex with another neutralized the true love thing between her and Thomas, but not between Thomas and the Sword. I think that the Sword of Love itself is true love. Thus it would be impossible for Thomas to ever touch it, let alone use it... Unless through some sacrifice, he became fully human, then and only then could he become a Holy Knight and wield the Sword of Love. Would giving up his Hunger Demon and the power etc it gives him be seen as a sacrifice? Perhaps, if there is a way.
Also even if Thomas became White King, you'd never see Lara be Harry's or anyone else's sidekick. That just isn't in that woman's make up.
Yup. ;) WAGS are all we got and what keeps us coming back here time after time to pull these guesses out of our collective informed behinds... ::)
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Lara may be anxious about Thomas, but she won't blame Harry for his condition. She's very practical, does love her family and realizes that not only did Harry not cause this injury to Thomas, but that she forced Harry into considerable danger in saving Thomas' life from the Svartalves and hiding him on the island.
I also think Thomas can remain a vampire and still wield a Sword. We've already seen Susan use one on a mission of love to save her daughter. Thomas can use the same Sword of Love to save the souls of Justine and his child. What happens after that is open. Perhaps prolonged exposure to the Sword will change the nature of his demon. Or maybe he's only a Knight for that mission since we've been told that being a long-term sword wielder is not the normal. Maybe they get rid of Papa Raith and Thomas becomes the new White King and Lara becomes Harry's sidekick.
I'm sure all these guesses are wrong but until Jim tells the story, WAGs are all we've got.
On a side note, I like the way Jim writes Lara and Harry. Like at the start Lara was like Harry Dresden not so bright wizard i can manipulate. At the end of I think Blood Rites she finds out Harry staged is talk with Pa Raith so she would find out what he really thinks of her. She takes down PaRaith but i think in the back of her mind she realizes that she was used and Harry is smarter that she thinks. In White Night Harry figures out her play. In her mind Dresden is probably some mad genius using confusion fu on her.
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If I remember correctly, Jim has said that the Warden of Demonreach can release portions of the prisoners but not all. The example he gave (assuming my memory is right) is that Harry could trap Vadderrung/Odin/Claus on the island and release Vadderrung but not Claus. Since Claus was the portion of that being who was keeping him immortal, he would have really good leverage on him. I imagine that Harry could, theoretically, do the same with Thomas.
However, we know that there is an angel in the Sword of the Cross. Since those angels presumably has more experience and knowledge than Harry, it could probably be more precise at only killing the Whampire demon. In fact, the Sword of Faith would probably be perfect for this.
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If I remember correctly, Jim has said that the Warden of Demonreach can release portions of the prisoners but not all. The example he gave (assuming my memory is right) is that Harry could trap Vadderrung/Odin/Claus on the island and release Vadderrung but not Claus. Since Claus was the portion of that being who was keeping him immortal, he would have really good leverage on him. I imagine that Harry could, theoretically, do the same with Thomas.
"Claus" is specifically the Kringlemantle, though. Mantles are constructs, and made to be separated from the people who wield/wear the mantle. Odin, in particular, often takes off the Kringlemantle (I would allege that he is only rarely Kringle: because Kringle is subject to Mab, but Vadderung & Odin emphatically are not).
I don't think we've ever seen the Mother/Queen/Lady (or Knight) mantles separate from their owners (except of course when the owners die). Vadderung has told Harry several times about not always being Kringle; I expect this foreshadows Harry being able to "take off" the Knightmantle, and put it back on.
I don't think that the Hunger Demon is much like a mantle, though. Obviously, Jim could write that it is, but they seem entirely-separate things, to me.
However, we know that there is an angel in the Sword of the Cross. Since those angels presumably has more experience and knowledge than Harry, it could probably be more precise at only killing the Whampire demon. In fact, the Sword of Faith would probably be perfect for this.
I presume Amoracchius -- the Sword of Love -- would be the most natural for dealing with the whampire hunger-demon of lust.
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I don't think that the Hunger Demon is much like a mantle, though. Obviously, Jim could write that it is, but they seem entirely-separate things, to me.
The Hunger Demon is nothing like a mantle. The Hunger Demon is more like a parasite that the host is born with. When the host reaches puberty or sexual maturity the HD parasite is ready to feed and awakens with the first sexual experience and full maturity when the host feeds on the emotions of the victim until it dies. It is a symbiotic relationship, it compels the host to feed,thus flourishing it and in return it gives the host, youth, exceptional strength, and beauty.
"Claus" is specifically the Kringlemantle, though. Mantles are constructs, and made to be separated from the people who wield/wear the mantle. Odin, in particular, often takes off the Kringlemantle (I would allege that he is only rarely Kringle: because Kringle is subject to Mab, but Vadderung & Odin emphatically are not).
I don't think Kringle is subject to anyone, I think Kringle is merely another aspect of Odin's mantle.
I don't think we've ever seen the Mother/Queen/Lady (or Knight) mantles separate from their owners (except of course when the owners die). Vadderung has told Harry several times about not always being Kringle; I expect this foreshadows Harry being able to "take off" the Knightmantle, and put it back on.
Kringle also told Harry on Halloween during "the Hunt" many mantles/faces maybe worn. Odin is a god, where as Harry is a mere human, wizard, yes, but human, I don't think he can take the Winter Knight's mantle on and off like a cloak.
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... I don't think Kringle is subject to anyone, I think Kringle is merely another aspect of Odin's mantle...
No, he told Harry that he was meeting him (IIRC in Changes) as Kringle specifically because Harry had called as the Winter Knight, that Kringle was part of Winter, and that if Mab had wanted service from Vadderung he'd have told her to make an appointment just like any other customer.
Kringle is subject to Mab.
Mab doesn't usually push the issue because Vadderung -- and Odin! -- are not subject to Mab, and Mab really doesn't want to make an enemy there.
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No, he told Harry that he was meeting him (IIRC in Changes) as Kringle specifically because Harry had called as the Winter Knight, that Kringle was part of Winter, and that if Mab had wanted service from Vadderung he'd have told her to make an appointment just like any other customer.
You got your books mixed up. In Changes Harry meets with Vadderung, but in Skin Game as Winter Knight he meets him in Mac's Bar as Kringle. I also think it is a bit more complicated, page 372 Skin Game
Vadderung is a complicated guy.
"But you and Kringle are the same person," I said.
"Legally speaking, Kringle and Vadderung are two entirely different people who simply happen to reside in the same body," he replied.
"That's just a fiction,"I said, " a little game of protocol."
""Little games of protocol are how one shows respect, especially to those with whom one does not get along famously well. It can be tedious but generally is less trouble than a duel would be."
No mention of mantles when it comes to Vadderung/Odin/Kringle, I do find it an interesting passage. Yes, a page or two later Harry mentions that he and Kringle are both members of the Winter Court, but the above passage implies to me at any rate that Kringle is a member of the Winter Court out of curtsy to Mab, not as her subject, nor does he really get along with her, but out of respect.
Kringle is subject to Mab.
Mab doesn't usually push the issue because Vadderung -- and Odin! -- are not subject to Mab, and Mab really doesn't want to make an enemy there.
Kringle is subject to Mab legally but he alsoisn't because he is also Odin in the same body, or as Harry put it, " a little game of protocol." This arrangement apparently keeps the peace.
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... Kringle is subject to Mab legally but he alsoisn't because he is also Odin in the same body, or as Harry put it, " a little game of protocol." This arrangement apparently keeps the peace.
The "legalities" within Faerie are quite absolute.
Legally-outmaneuver a faerie and they will do something they absolutely HATE having to do.
And the Kringlemantle is Fae.
Kringle thus has to obey Mab.
Odin does not have to obey her... Odin seems able to put on & take off the Kringlemantle at will (tricky sort, Odin; just as much so as Mab, really).
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The "legalities" within Faerie are quite absolute.
Legally-outmaneuver a faerie and they will do something they absolutely HATE having to do.
And the Kringlemantle is Fae.
Kringle thus has to obey Mab.
Odin does not have to obey her... Odin seems able to put on & take off the Kringlemantle at will (tricky sort, Odin; just as much so as Mab, really).
Notice that Kringle uses the word "protocol" As defined;
What's the difference between protocol and etiquette?
Is Etiquette the Same as Manners? What about Protocol and ...
While Etiquette & Manners involve the rules of politeness and compassion among people in a social setting, Protocol comprises the set of rules associated with formalities, ceremonial events and official occasions involving nations and their representatives; as well as functions or formal procedures related to ...
Kringle doesn't use the word mantle anywhere when he describes himself.. Nor does he mention putting on or taking off a mantle..
Legally speaking, Kringle and Vadderung are two entirely different people who simply happen to reside in the same body," he replied
So no, I don't think Kringle is a Fae. Just a guess, but I think under the Accords protocol, Odin as Kringle is a member of the
Winter Court. He does have to obey certain rules under protocol, but I doubt that Mab under those same protocols can
force Kringle to do anything, nor can Kringle do what he wants.. As Kringle explains...
"That's just a fiction,"I said, " a little game of protocol."
""Little games of protocol are how one shows respect, especially to those with whom one does not get along famously well. It can be tedious but generally is less trouble than a duel would be."
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Odin isn't Fae.
The Kringlemantle is:
Is Kringle Fae?
His mantle, yes, is part of the Winter Court. Which does not necessarily mean that he himself is Fae as much as the fact that his mantle is. While he’s there, he’s got to pay deference to Mab. If Mab gives him a command, he has to obey it.
-- https://wordof.jim-butcher.com/index.php/word-of-jim-woj-compilation/woj-on-the-fae/... Search for "Kringle" on the page
Just like Harry himself isn't Fae, but the WK mantel is.
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Odin isn't Fae.
The Kringlemantle is: -- https://wordof.jim-butcher.com/index.php/word-of-jim-woj-compilation/woj-on-the-fae/... Search for "Kringle" on the page
Just like Harry himself isn't Fae, but the WK mantel is.
But then Jim goes on in the next line to say;
His mantle, yes, is part of the Winter Court. Which does not necessarily mean that he himself is Fae as much as the fact that his mantle is. While he’s there, he’s got to pay deference to Mab. If Mab gives him a command, he has to obey it.
2013 KC signing Q&A
If you’re (a powerful immortal being) in the real world, well, the problem is that you’re in the world, and you’re kind of mortal, and something could come along and try and whack you, if they’re fast enough, or good enough, or lucky enough. Which makes Odin a kind of special guy, because he doesn’t mind it, he thinks it’s awesome.
What I don't understand, is in the Q&A, Jim calls Kringle a "mantle" but in the book he calls Kringle a "person," in the body of Odin. Plus a lot of talk about protocol. Which brings me to what Jim says next about Odin, how I read it is while in theory Kringle has to obey Mab, Odin/Kringle doesn't mind giving her the finger on occasion if her agenda doesn't match his. In Skin Game their agendas matched, what would be interesting is if Mab gave Kringle an order which didn't match Odin's agenda.. Then we would see how readily Kringle would obey Mab.. That's where all the talk of protocol to prevent conflict comes in I think.
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... What I don't understand, is in the Q&A, Jim calls Kringle a "mantle" but in the book he calls Kringle a "person," in the body of Odin. Plus a lot of talk about protocol.
Harry is an "unreliable narrator," and has limited understanding of things.
I think you are inferring more from & about the Harry-POV than actually is stated.
The WoJ is clear: "Kringle" is a faerie mantle (specifically, Winterfae).
... Which brings me to what Jim says next about Odin, how I read it is while in theory Kringle has to obey Mab, Odin/Kringle doesn't mind giving her the finger on occasion if her agenda doesn't match his. In Skin Game their agendas matched, what would be interesting is if Mab gave Kringle an order which didn't match Odin's agenda.. Then we would see how readily Kringle would obey Mab.. That's where all the talk of protocol to prevent conflict comes in I think.
Odin knows the trick of taking off a mantle without dying, of holding onto it, of putting it back on again at need. If Odin is wearing the Kringlemantle, he has to obey Mab; if Odin isn't willing to obey Mab, he just takes off the Kringlemantle (and loses the Christmas-y Kringlepowers... but he's still f'ing Odin the Allfather, who was ancient before mortal-Mab first joined the fae; and things probably just got really tense...) .
Harry doesn't stop being Harry, just because he's got the WK mantle (I'm expecting him to learn the off-and-on mantle trick from Odin).
Reading between the lines, I think Odin & Mab probably both put in a bit of effort to see to it that Odin's interests do not seriously conflict with Mab's interests, during the time that Odin is wearing the Kringlemantle: neither one of them wants that conflict, but neither one of them could avoid it under the rightwrong circumstances.
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Harry is an "unreliable narrator," and has limited understanding of things.
I think you are inferring more from & about the Harry-POV than actually is stated.
You are saying that Harry was quoting Vadderung/Odin wrong.. Possible, but then again we will have to see.
Odin knows the trick of taking off a mantle without dying, of holding onto it, of putting it back on again at need. If Odin is wearing the Kringlemantle, he has to obey Mab; if Odin isn't willing to obey Mab, he just takes off the Kringlemantle (and loses the Christmas-y Kringlepowers... but he's still f'ing Odin the Allfather, who was ancient before mortal-Mab first joined the fae; and things probably just got really tense...) .
Which really makes Vadderung/Odin's point doesn't it. Protocol, in other words while wearing the Kringlemantle, Kringle has to obey Mab, but only as long as Mab's agenda goes along with Odin. If it doesn't, Odin simply drops the Kringlemantle, AND he doesn't have to obey Mab. And yes, things would get tense really quick, so it is all handled very diplomatically, through protocol because Odin or Kringle/Odin doesn't need to duel Mab as Vadderung/Odin points out.
Reading between the lines, I think Odin & Mab probably both put in a bit of effort to see to it that Odin's interests do not seriously conflict with Mab's interests, during the time that Odin is wearing the Kringlemantle: neither one of them wants that conflict, but neither one of them could avoid it under the rightwrong circumstances.
Again, protocol, so on the surface Kringle has to obey Mab as a member of Winter, but since he is also Odin, he can drop the mantle ,and tell her to go fish at anytime which wouldn't be good.. So it is in the best interest of both to play nice, Mab is never going to command Kringle to do anything that Odin would really object to..
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You are saying that Harry was quoting Vadderung/Odin wrong.. Possible, but then again we will have to see ...
No, I'm saying that Harry was understanding Vadderung/Odin wrong.
I quote Obi-Wan "It was true... from a certain point of view."
Odin doesn't want to just come out and say some of this outright. He wants Harry to come to the understanding with a minimum of prompting from outside powers.
Here's the thing: "Kringle" is a person... but only while Odin is wearing the Kringlemantle. That "person" doesn't exist when Odin "takes off" the mantle, because "Kringle" (the person) is specifically and only the person who is wearing the Kringlemantle.
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To much off topic. Let's start other threads
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Just because his babies held hostage in a way... Doesn't give you a free pass to murder. I think Thomas if he survives imprisonment. He'll die a martyr saving the day of some type..
The bill comes due...
I think it's worth noting that there are two questions being addressed in the thread:
1st (as posed in this OP) - Is "Karma" a bitch? Does "Fate" now have a violent end in store for Thomas? Is Thomas (having murdered) now doomed to face a violent (albeit possibly heroic) end? It's worth noting here that Thomas has been a murderer ever since we met him: whampires only manifest fully after their 1st full feeding, which AFAIK is always to the death (n.b. Connie & Irwin are an odd case)... so Thomas must have killed his first lover.
The 2nd question is the physical & practical one: can he escape the Svartalven demands for retribution?
I note a similar parallel between the White Council's "Laws of Magic" -- which they enforce legalistically, at trial -- and the "natural law" laws of magic, which comes in to form of psychic trauma & damage (and, as Jim likes to say, "cackling villainy"). The WC laws are "only human:" they can fail to detect broken Laws, they can fail to convict wrong-doers, they can falsely-convict those who aren't fallen to the Dark Side. The "natural laws" come for Black Magicians willy-nilly (though evidently the Blackstaff (MW's WS) can stave that off, for the wielder), and impose their own penalties (often madness).
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I don't see the svartalves being an issue really, they're old school in the same view as Mab? They more than likely know of Nemesis?
Put two and two together, point out Thomas was nothing but a weapon not the perp, and they might actually owe due to what they did to him... I mean, they already DO, but if they actually accepted the fact it would be paramount to owing a life.
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I think it's worth noting that there are two questions being addressed in the thread:
1st (as posed in this OP) - Is "Karma" a bitch? Does "Fate" now have a violent end in store for Thomas? Is Thomas (having murdered) now doomed to face a violent (albeit possibly heroic) end? It's worth noting here that Thomas has been a murderer ever since we met him: whampires only manifest fully after their 1st full
feeding, which AFAIK is always to the death (n.b. Connie & Irwin are an odd case)... so Thomas must have killed his first lover.
Yes, he did murder his first victim, it has been years since I read Blood Rites, but if I remember correctly Lord Raith set him up. Young, with perhaps little understanding of what he was, let alone control, he fed upon his first victim until she died and became a full vampire himself. Lord Raith did the same with Lara, and tried to set up their little sister, Inari with Harry as her first kill. Interesting that though especially Lara was at peace with her status, Thomas also for the most part, neither wanted that for their little sister, they wanted her to have at least a choice, nor have a chance that true love would burn out the Hunger Demon before she killed anyone. In short Lord Raith set Thomas up to commit murder, and in spite of some efforts not to, he has committed murder since in the course of feeding, especially during and after the Skin Walker had a hold of him.
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Yes, he did murder his first victim, it has been years since I read Blood Rites, but if I remember correctly Lord Raith set him up ...
This is pretty much "family life" for all Whampires.
The parents all "set up" their kids, try to make sure that "first feeding" is just teen hormones & body-chemistry (or teenage angst/despair for the Skavis, etc). A few train them young and ruthless, so they know ahead of time... but that's the exception.
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I don't see the svartalves being an issue really, they're old school in the same view as Mab? They more than likely know of Nemesis?
Harry remarked that he took notice of exactly who (at the Peace Talks) showed realization of what was implied by the Outer Gates being assaulted by the Outsiders, simultaneously with Ethniu's attack.
Jim -- that bastard! -- didn't tell us which parties were which. I suspect he's leaving himself wiggle-room for future writing, where some groups that you'd think would know, do not; and some that you'd expect not to, do (maybe Jim even has some specific ideas in that direction).
I'd think that:
- if Harry&co could prove that Nemesis was actually the bad actor
- if the Svartalves know of Nemesis
then Thomas could escape the most-severe Svartalven penalties.
But I'm not at all confident that (in Jim's Dresdenverse) this is the case.
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I'd think that:
- if Harry&co could prove that Nemesis was actually the bad actor
- if the Svartalves know of Nemesis
then Thomas could escape the most-severe Svartalven penalties.
But I'm not at all confident that (in Jim's Dresdenverse) this is the case.
through might or right, Thomas can't come back without doing so on some level tho.
Skipping out of the grave sword in hand just to be throttled by a svartalf would definitely subvert expectations...
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This is pretty much "family life" for all Whampires.
The parents all "set up" their kids, try to make sure that "first feeding" is just teen hormones & body-chemistry (or teenage angst/despair for the Skavis, etc). A few train them young and ruthless, so they know ahead of time... but that's the exception.
I don't think so, the impression I got from both Lara and Thomas that at puberty it is about choices and there is a more natural process for it. That's why both of them wanted their little sister away from their father. Inari still most likely will fail at true love, Jim left that an open question as far as her future was concerned, but it would still be on her own terms. I think the point of both Thomas and Lara were making was the way their father pushed and tricked them into that first kill was to gain control and power over them, and they didn't want that for their little sister.
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I don't think so, the impression I got from both Lara and Thomas that at puberty it is about choices and there is a more natural process for it.
There is a more natural process, yes; I think most Whampires avoid that.
The DF Wiki says so, too:
The tradition of the White Court is to not tell a young potential succubus what they will become, or even anything about the supernatural world. In their childhood and early teens they are raised as a vanilla human. Their first feeding, which is always fatal, comes as a surprise to them, and introduces them into the world of the White Court.
(footnoting this factoid to White Night ch.27; I have not gone back to find the original passage(s) supporting this.)
... That's why both of them wanted their little sister away from their father ...
They did want that; but most whampires want to maintain their familial power. For all their sexual prowess, whamp-reproduction is a rarity. Even a small proportion of their children choosing not to become a serial sexual predator would spell doom for any family pursuing such "weakness."
... I think the point of both Thomas and Lara were making was the way their father pushed and tricked them into that first kill was to gain control and power over them, and they didn't want that for their little sister.
Again, I agree. It's just that Raith père was following the mainstream tradition of House Raith, while Thomas & Lara wanted something better for Inari.
But again: we are wandering afield from the OP topic (Thomas' actions against the Svartalves, and a "free pass" (or not) for that); @OutsideIn has asked us to stay on-topic. I don't mind further whamp-centric discussion, but let's spin it off to a new Thread if we do.
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I realize we are going far afield again, but I guess it is all related and there are so few of us now posting.
Anyway....
The DF Wiki says so, too:
Quote
The tradition of the White Court is to not tell a young potential succubus what they will become, or even anything about the supernatural world. In their childhood and early teens they are raised as a vanilla human. Their first feeding, which is always fatal, comes as a surprise to them, and introduces them into the world of the White Court.
(footnoting this factoid to White Night ch.27; I have not gone back to find the original passage(s) supporting this.)
I just did go back to Chapter 27 of White Night, other than stating that Thomas was hungry and that he tries not to kill, nothing about what the DF Wiki sights.. However in Blood Rites there is, it talks about if Inari is in love she might be able to avoid that first feeding. Even if she cannot avoid it, if she and the young man love one another the Hunger Demon could be killed.
Blood Rites 164-165
page 164, Thomas leaned up against the wall beside my mother's portrait. He pushed his hair back from his face with one hand. "She hasn't been taken by her Hunger yet," he said. "Once she starts feeding it there's no going back. She'll be like us for the rest of us. My father is pushing her toward that point. I want to stop him."
"Why?"
"Because if. . .if she's in love, that first time, it could kill her Hunger. She'd be free. I think she is mature enough to be capable of that love now. There's a young man she's all twitterpated about."
That indicates there is a choice if the would be White Court vamp knows before hand. The reason why the set up for Inari's first feed to be on Harry, she isn't in love with him.. She'd kill him, be hooked. Also note that timing is important, Thomas states that he thinks Inari is mature enough to experience true love.. So Raith has to set up his daughters before they have a chance to be in love.
page 165
Thomas pressed his lips together for a moment and then said. "If the kid loves her in return, then she could have a life. She could be free of the kinds of things that---" His voice broke. He had to cough before he continued."Things like what happened to Justine. Like what my father has done to my other sisters."
"What do you mean, done to them?"
"He establishes that he is their superior, He overpowers them. Pits his Hunger against theirs."
My stomach twisted. "You mean he feeds on his own. . ." I couldn't finish the sentence.
So the above establishes a couple of things, 1] once the feeding begins, the would be vampire is toast, a vampire. 2] True love can kill it at this time. 3] Raith did set up his daughters so they had no choice upon whom that first feeding began, so it happened and results in death of the victim. 4] Most importantly Raith sets them up so then he can establish Hunger power over them though incest. No, I don't think this is standard White Court practice.