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The Dresden Files => DF Spoilers => Topic started by: g33k on August 16, 2023, 06:21:47 PM
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(or has this already been discussed & resolved and I didn't spot it?)
So, Bob.
And the Nevernever.
Why is Bob always hurrying home to his skull??!?
Bob is (as of Changes, at Chichén Itzá) one of the most-powerful spirits Harry has ever met... and he has met some real doozies!
Why doesn't Bob just summon an ectoplasm body, like a Ramp flesh-mask or like Binder's goons do?
Why doesn't Bob just open a door to the Nevernever, nip across for the daylight hours, then back to the RealWorld at sunset?
TYVM for your thoughts, and/or links to the issue if it has already been resolved.
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(or has this already been discussed & resolved and I didn't spot it?)
So, Bob.
And the Nevernever.
Why is Bob always hurrying home to his skull??!?
Bob is (as of Changes, at Chichén Itzá) one of the most-powerful spirits Harry has ever met... and he has met some real doozies!
Why doesn't Bob just summon an ectoplasm body, like a Ramp flesh-mask or like Binder's goons do?
Why doesn't Bob just open a door to the Nevernever, nip across for the daylight hours, then back to the RealWorld at sunset?
TYVM for your thoughts, and/or links to the issue if it has already been resolved.
As you know, Bob is also on Mab's poop list, Bob is terrified of her. It is my theory that he doesn't do as you suggested, because he can't. Why? Mab has fixed it so he can't.. Also I don't think Bob is as powerful as you suggest, Evil Bob might be, but I think both are limited to being spirits of knowledge.
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Bob knew how to kill immortals, he’s on every immortals poop list, and that would include the likes of Hades who have exclusively retired to the Never Never. His terror of Mab (but not Lea, an immortal who I suspect is his “Mother” and the source of this information) is genuine, Faerie lies cluster to the mortal realms to a trip into the Never Never will inevitably mean some contact with Winter)
I have previously posited that Bob could form an ectoplasmic body around his sanctum, it would dissolve with the dawn but Bob would be safe, and he could immediately reform it. I have suggested something similar for Bonnie is likely probably in Next Book
Now there may have been safeguards in Bob’s original sanctum preventing him from doing this as there are as regards him doing the bidding of the possessor of the Sanctum. However I believe the Sanctum created by Harry may not have had these safeguards, which is why Bob wanted it in the first place. I suspect we may therefore see Bonnie first manifest the physical form we saw in Skin Game.
However I suspect the Castle as intended to be run by a spirit of intellect may itself be an enormous Sanctum with the same control measures meaning that Bob could only manifest a physical body inside it (a nice symmetry to Bonnie) unaffected by the Dawn. Outside he would still need the skull for protection.
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I don't believe he can.
I don't think any spirits except for ghosts have ever formed an ectoplasmic body on their own. And even the ghosts need to be "insane." Every other entity that has been seen so far, that has formed an ectoplasmic body was either summoned or is still corporeal and uses the ectoplasm for shape changing purposes.
It makes sense though. Otherwise, the world would be a far more dangerous place.
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As you know, Bob is also on Mab's poop list, Bob is terrified of her ...
Bob says that.
Honestly, I think he's lying.
Bob has been floating around the mortal realm serving wizards for centuries.
Do you honestly believe Mab wouldn't have taken him out (long-since!), if he was actually on her poop list?
I think he feigns fear of Winter & of Mab because he's actually Winter's agent, Mab's agent... faking this makes everyone think "Nah... he couldn't possibly be working for/with Winter!"
...Also I don't think Bob is as powerful as you suggest ...
That's how Harry describes Bob, when he sends the spirit out to protect Murphy against the LoON's in Changes.
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Bob during Battle Ground was receiving Radio Mab the 24 hour channel for everyone on Mab’s poop list.
I am not sure Mab has him as a high priority since he was bound to the skull. Bob has effectively punished himself.
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Bob knew how to kill immortals, he’s on every immortals poop list ...
meh.
Given how freaking many immortals there are (and presuming they all know) the chances of this "secret" remaining genuinely "secret" seem impossible. Just ONE of them trusting the wrong confidante, or being less-than-perfect in their secrecy/security, would mean the secret would get out.
I mean, sure... they don't like it being blabbed-around as common knowledge. But I expect that's mostly because they don't want the annoyance of rando-immortality-seekers by the metric moron-ton.
And despite his raw power, and the many heavyweights he's faced, Harry is (relatively-speaking) still new to the game. There's so much he still doesn't know.
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I don't believe he can.
That seems possible. But I find it very very odd.
... I don't think any spirits except for ghosts have ever formed an ectoplasmic body on their own ...
I think Binder summons spirits.
When they "die," they leave behind corpses that dissolve completely to ectoplasm.
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I think Binder summons spirits.
When they "die," they leave behind corpses that dissolve completely to ectoplasm.
Binder is a summoner. Summoned beings are given their bodies thru the summons, they don't manifest in reality without being called.
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We are told in Skin Game Goodnan Grey pulls in ectoplasm from the Never to increase his mad to that say if a horse. The principle for Bob to create an ectoplasmic body would be identical.
No idea how a shapechanger gets rid of mass though I do note that both LTW and River retained their mass in shapechanging in PT and BG, so I suspect Jim hasn’t figured a convincing explanation either in his own universes rules.
One way would be to convert the mass to energy, but then you need to store that energy and then convert it back into mass, basically teleportation. BG of course contained foreshadowing Harry aging shape shifting and teleportation abilities in the future.
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We are told in Skin Game Goodnan Grey pulls in ectoplasm from the Never to increase his mad to that say if a horse. The principle for Bob to create an ectoplasmic body would be identical.
No idea how a shapechanger gets rid of mass though I do note that both LTW and River retained their mass in shapechanging in PT and BG, so I suspect Jim hasn’t figured a convincing explanation either in his own universes rules.
One way would be to convert the mass to energy, but then you need to store that energy and then convert it back into mass, basically teleportation. BG of course contained foreshadowing Harry aging shape shifting and teleportation abilities in the future.
Notice that Goodman Grey is a corporeal being. Bob is a spirit being. We know that he and Evil Bob can both form bodies once they are in the Never-Never, but not once do they do it in reality.
I think manifesting a body requires a link to reality that only corporeal beings innately possess. Ghosts possess the link because they were once alive and summoned beings get it thru their summoner. Spirits just don't have the required innate link.
Even the greater powers are limited in this way. The Fallen need their Coins and hosts and even Uriel only became solid after investing his abilities in Michael.
And it has to be this way. Otherwise, some minor wizard/warlock/witch would accidentally open a portal to the Never-Never and things would come pouring out.
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The link would be through the corporeal parents, their offspring have the body images that their parents had in the same way a ghost would have it’s former bodies image. Bonnie would even have the knowledge and muscle memory of shapeshifting from Lash.
Bob can clearly interact with the physical world even in his sanctum, that is established in Storm Front.
Open a portal and things come pouring out you mean like Austin in Zoo Day?
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I've never thought that they can't affect the physical world. We've had plenty of evidence of that. I just think that they can't form ectoplasmic bodies.
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Bob can cross to and from the NeverNever, what’s to stop him drawing ectoplasm from the NeverNever? Dawn turns the body to jelly, so does a circle and I would presume a threshold, all drawbacks.
However it may be that the act of drawing ectoplasm exposes Bob to identification and tracing by Mab, so it maybe a matter not so much as can’t but won’t. Bob has a heightened sense of self-preservation (he’s a coward).
However Bob’s service in BG and his adoption of Winter Blue when running the Castle suggests he may no longer be on Mab’s poop list, Harry is being much more relaxed in introducing Bob to people these days.
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What's stopping him from forming a body? I don't know. Maybe he makes himself Brad Pitt or Denzel Washington on those nights out and gets it on with the ladies. It's possible.
But across the entirety of the Dresden Files, we've never seen it happen. Maybe it's one of those rules, "Fae can't tell a direct lie." or "Circles block magic crossing them." I can accept one, why not the other?
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... But across the entirety of the Dresden Files, we've never seen it happen. Maybe it's one of those rules, "Fae can't tell a direct lie." or "Circles block magic crossing them." I can accept one, why not the other?
Indeed! I too can accept that.
But across the entirety of the Dresden files, how many times have we seem Harry explain those other rules (faeries cannot tell a direct lie, circles block magic)? Whether it's Harry explaining to Butters, or Murph, or another character; or narrator-to-reader exposition; we've had each of those rules (and several others) explained many many times.
But all we get, about Bob vs sunlight, is that he's gotta be home before the clock strikes fiat lux. Never any mention, in that context, of why Bob cannot use the means that a bunch of other entities (who all need SPF-infinty sunscreen) use.
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But across the entirety of the Dresden files, how many times have we seem Harry explain those other rules (faeries cannot tell a direct lie, circles block magic)? Whether it's Harry explaining to Butters, or Murph, or another character; or narrator-to-reader exposition; we've had each of those rules (and several others) explained many many times.
At the same time there seem to be exceptions to the rule. The Fae cannot tell a direct lie, but Mab manages to tell indirect ones or ones by omission. When Harry calls her on that, her answer is that it is on him, because he messed up on his question. Or perhaps because she was human once, still is a smidge human, that gives her a loop hole that she will drive through with a truck if she has to.
Circles aren't all powerful either, remember Uriel being amused by Harry's attempt at a circle in Changes?
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Remember we are seeing things from Harry’s perspective and he is an unreliable narrator. The universal laws are therefore subject to the observer effect I.e Harry’s interpretation, and that changes over time.
Mab’s capacity to mislead Harry is diminishing as Harry wises up (beyond his ass) indeed Harry is starting to use Mab’s words against her, in The Law her casual reference to the company car is turned against her into a trespass against Winter which she cannot ignore. That annoys her.
Uriel exists simultaneous as the same being in every universe, you probably have to catch him in a circle in every universe. Harry didn’t know that. He does now.
What he knows of Bob’s powers and limitations are what Bob has shown him. Harry is surprised by the Kemmler revelations for example. Bob does not really volunteer information.
Because we haven’t seen it does’t mean it isn’t possible. Or impossible.
Why can Harry and Goodman Grey summon ectoplasm but Bob can’t?
Are the Sanctums Etienne and Harry crafted for Bob exactly the same with exactly the limitations? Bob would try to ensure it isn’t and the fact Harry wouldn’t use a human skull might be the cause. What if the use of mortal remains blocks the ability to draw ectoplasm? Or blocks access from and to the Never Never. So that Bob couldn’t manifest a body and strangle Etienne in his sleep? Ghosts can use their graves (but no one elses) as sanctums so there is some connection
Is the Castle itself a Sanctum? (If it isn’t it would be vulnerable to a dawn attack) if so Bob could manifest a body inside it but arrange d to let Harry know this because he would realise Bob tricked him over the new Sanctum.
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It had been a while since I read Ghost Story, but as I remember it, the only time Harry describes
Bob with a body, is when he is inside Bob's scull and goes on to also describe the living quarters inside the scull. Not unlike DR Who's Tardis seems to be bigger on the inside than the outside or the scull that we see like the Police Box. I remember Evil Bob running around, but I cannot remember beyond that. However I think that was on a different plane of existence, allowing for Evil Bob to have a body.. Or since he is Evil Bob, he can chose to break the rules that normally define Bob's existence. Otherwise outside of his scull, Bob doesn't have a body, when Harry has given him leave or asked him to explore, he usually has to do it with Mister as a car, he can't just go on his own. In the chase in Skin Game, Bob is still in his scull in a special pack that Butters invented.
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That was within Bob’s mind scape but that is Bob’s body image and his likely default form. It’s like the Molly Mindscape in the battle with Corpsetaker.
In Evil Bob’s demesne both Bob and Evil Bob manifested physical form, and you would expect EB to be as vulnerable as Bob, and he put up all those defensed I suspect not to protect from the lecter spectres but from Mab’s agents and to buy him time to escape, but EB does not manifest physically in the mortal world. This may suggest Bob/EB can’t be easily traced in either the NeverNever or the mortal world, but drawing ectoplasm in the mortal world is traceable, but not in the NeverNever.
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Perhaps the skull protects AND limits Bob? Perhaps it makes it impossible for him to go into body mode.
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At the same time there seem to be exceptions to the rule. The Fae cannot tell a direct lie, but Mab manages to tell indirect ones or ones by omission. When Harry calls her on that, her answer is that it is on him, because he messed up on his question...
???
The "faeries cannot tell a lie" rule is *always* hedged-about with "cannot tell a direct lie" and "but that has never stopped them from deceiving" language. It's not an "exception" at all, it's very precisely what it is, and nothing at all to do with "honesty" or "good character" &c.
Faeries cannot tell a direct lie.
Faeries cannot cheat on the exact terms of a bargain.
etc.
But the human isn't entitled to honesty, nor to any "spirit of the bargain" or what they thought they were getting. Only the exact terms.
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???
The "faeries cannot tell a lie" rule is *always* hedged-about with "cannot tell a direct lie" and "but that has never stopped them from deceiving" language. It's not an "exception" at all, it's very precisely what it is, and nothing at all to do with "honesty" or "good character" &c.
Faeries cannot tell a direct lie.
Faeries cannot cheat on the exact terms of a bargain.
etc.
But the human isn't entitled to honesty, nor to any "spirit of the bargain" or what they thought they were getting. Only the exact terms.
In other words, they cheat.. In any bargain with them there is always a loop hole.. The Fae were the original lawyers.. ::)
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In other words, they cheat...
No, they don't. It may not be fair, but the fae are not cheating.
It isn't fair when a chess Grandmaster beats a regular player; but that's not cheating, either.
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No, they don't. It may not be fair, but the fae are not cheating.
It isn't fair when a chess Grandmaster beats a regular player; but that's not cheating, either.
A Grandmaster uses skill and tactics to beat a regular player, no that isn't cheating.. But not true of the Fae, they cannot lie, yet use loopholes to get out of a bargain.. You might think you have an understanding with Mab, but what you think you understand and what she says she understood as she screws you and gets the better part of the bargain are two different things... I call that cheating... That is what happens when you ask most politicians a direct question, they rarely answer it directly.. You come away thinking you understand one thing, call them on it, and they will tell you what you think they said, wasn't what they said at all... Mab pulls that one all of the time, as do most Fae, that is why it is so dangerous to bargain with them...
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But they aren't lying.
They are using every method they can to be deceptive, but they avoid the actual act of lying directly. It's a game they constantly play among themselves and with others. They twist the wording of bargains for every advantage they can because they are bound by them. Bad things happen to them if they don't keep their promises.
The "Cannot tell a direct lie." trope is present in many books and in all of them, the group bound by it is marked by speaking in weasel words. You bargain with them at your own peril. Look at the Aes Sedai in the WoT for example.
There is no spirit or fairness in Winter Law, only the letter.
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When Harry took on Puck at cards, Puck expected Harry as a mortal to cheat, but as a Wizard to use magic. I think Harry used sleight of hand and cheated anyway. There is no way he was going to rely on his luck.
That is where Harry has an advantage against a fae, it’s like how he cheated Lea, as an immortal it was difficult for her to appreciate Harry using a suicide ploy, as with a puck and the sleight of hand it’s outside of her normal frame of reference. Mab used to be human her frame of reference is wider. The suicide ploy did not work on her, but the’company car’ ploy did. Modern arrangements such as a “company car” are too modern and outside her frame of reference,
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They are using every method they can to be deceptive, but they avoid the actual act of lying directly. It's a game they constantly play among themselves and with others. They twist the wording of bargains for every advantage they can because they are bound by them. Bad things happen to them if they don't keep their promises.
Like with politicians.. ::)
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Like with politicians.. ::)
Yes and no.
Politicians say weasel words and half-truths all the time because its better PR-wise so when they don't follow through. They can claim that their words were misunderstood.
The Fae hedge their words so that they can fulfill their oaths in the way most advantageous to them. They always keep their promises, but opinions may differ on what the promise actually was.
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The Fae hedge their words so that they can fulfill their oaths in the way most advantageous to them. They always keep their promises, but opinions may differ on what the promise actually was.
Have you ever observed a good politician when confronted about their words or their promises? They generally claim that they have kept their promise no matter what our judgement of it is.
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A Grandmaster uses skill and tactics to beat a regular player, no that isn't cheating.. But not true of the Fae, they cannot lie, yet use loopholes to get out of a bargain...
Except that "loopholes" &c are the "skill and tactics" of contracts & bargains.
Not "fair" but also not "cheating."
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Except that "loopholes" &c are the "skill and tactics" of contracts & bargains.
Not "fair" but also not "cheating."
That depends on whether you understand what not fair means up front... Holding back information on contracts is cheating...
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Nope it’s up to you to do your due diligence.
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That depends on whether you understand what not fair means up front... Holding back information on contracts is cheating...
Actively hiding information, preventing the other party from finding it... that'd be cheating.
As CT says, though, mortals mostly just don't "do their due diligence."
Faeries mostly *do.*
But for comparison: look how often early-book Harry outmaneuvers Toot, binding him to service. Usually it was played for laughs, but more-or-less exactly the same kind of unfair bargaining Harry got into with Mab, but it usually went the other way, with Harry being the one outmaneuvered.
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A Faerie would read the Apple Terms of Service before agreeing to them.
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But for comparison: look how often early-book Harry outmaneuvers Toot, binding him to service. Usually it was played for laughs, but more-or-less exactly the same kind of unfair bargaining Harry got into with Mab, but it usually went the other way, with Harry being the one outmaneuvered.
But in the end Harry didn't cheat Toot, he and his "men" get well paid in pizza for their service. Harry also forced the White Court to free a lot of Wee Folk. Yes, the drop of blood put on the bread that Toot didn't know about bound him to Harry, which was cheating, but since then Harry has been more than fair with him.
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But in the end Harry didn't cheat Toot, he and his "men" get well paid in pizza for their service. Harry also forced the White Court to free a lot of Wee Folk. Yes, the drop of blood put on the bread that Toot didn't know about bound him to Harry, which was cheating, but since then Harry has been more than fair with him .
But in the end Mab didn't cheat Harry, he got well paid in Power for his service. Since then, Mab has been more than fair with him (by her standards).
;)
Again: the blood wasn't "cheating," Toot was just too-hasty in taking the treat. If he had looked on all sides of it, he'd have seen the blood.
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A Faerie would read the Apple Terms of Service before agreeing to them.
Toot sure wouldn't!
Mab would read them... engage with them... likely end up with a controlling interest in Apple.
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Toot when we first saw him was literally a child, now he is the equivalent of a hormonal 13 year old. He would ignore the terms of service and go straight onto the internet to browse pizza.
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Toot when we first saw him was literally a child, now he is the equivalent of a hormonal 13 year old. He would ignore the terms of service and go straight onto the internet to browse pizza.
I don't think Toot was at all like a hormonal 13 year old. The Wee Folk have been treated like children by the other Fae and abused by them because they never realized their own power as a group. Mab called them the lowest, Harry opened their eyes to the fact that they can fight as a group.
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He has grown, in Storm Front he was a child, but his story arc has seen him grow as an individual, he has found love and when we last see him his is developing empathy, and dealing with more adult concepts. His arc isn’t finished. Lacuna was always more mature and a better reader, she would look at the Apple logo and immediately be wary. Someone had taken the bite of an apple and had not brushed their teeth. Obviously not to be trusted.
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He has grown, in Storm Front he was a child, but his story arc has seen him grow as an individual, he has found love and when we last see him his is developing empathy, and dealing with more adult concepts. His arc isn’t finished. Lacuna was always more mature and a better reader, she would look at the Apple logo and immediately be wary. Someone had taken the bite of an apple and had not brushed their teeth. Obviously not to be trusted.
Not a child, he has grown in knowledge and power and physically grown along with it. A child physically grows whether or not he gains in knowledge or power, had Toot not decided to work with Harry he would have remained the size he was when we first meet him.
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Perhaps the skull protects AND limits Bob? Perhaps it makes it impossible for him to go into body mode.
This seems possible: maybe Etienne enchanted the skull with an intrinsic "order" that Bob is never to summon ectoplasmic sunscreen, nor to ever communicate this to anyone.
So everytime Bob comes out of his skull, there's a "Rule 0" that applies, in addition to whatever orders & constraints the current skull-owner applies to the current mission.
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The skull almost certainly sets limits on Bob in the skull, it outside? Whoever holds the skull controls Bob, but outside? Harry is always clear I giving Bob commands when allowed to leave the skull (Bob try’s to subvert them if unclearly phrased such as to investigate girls dorms etc.). But outside of the skull the control overBob definitely weakens, Bob was able to both break free of Cowl’s control outside of his skull and control the Ectoplasmic body of Sue in Dead best. Cowl although familiar with Bob and the skull, he clearly wasn’t fully aware of Bob’s boundaries.
The only issue is Bob summoning ectoplasm from the Never Never.either he can’t in the skull, or summoning would allow him to be tracked. Bob wanted a backup Sanctum from Harry, the obvious conclusion is that it gives him additional freedom. He is still bitching about it in The Law despite having the run of the Castle and internet access.
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Whoever holds the skull controls Bob, but outside? Harry is always clear I giving Bob commands when allowed to leave the skull (Bob try’s to subvert them if unclearly phrased such as to investigate girls dorms etc.)
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It's pretty clear that the skull-owner's "upon-leaving-skull" instructions are entirely binding: almost dead, Harry managed to say that the conversation (with Evil Bob) was over, and that pre-defined end-state immediately forced EB back into the skull.
I agree that we haven't seen anything about what limits the skull itself might place upon Bob.
But -- hypothetically -- a fundamental set of orders to "seek or accept no other refuge from the Dawn" and "always return to the skull" would seem like some basic controls to have in place, alongside the basic "abide by the orders and restrictions placed by the owner of the skull, each time you're allowed out" framework.
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It's pretty clear that the skull-owner's "upon-leaving-skull" instructions are entirely binding: almost dead, Harry managed to say that the conversation (with Evil Bob) was over, and that pre-defined end-state immediately forced EB back into the skull.
I agree that we haven't seen anything about what limits the skull itself might place upon Bob.
But -- hypothetically -- a fundamental set of orders to "seek or accept no other refuge from the Dawn" and "always return to the skull" would seem like some basic controls to have in place, alongside the basic "abide by the orders and restrictions placed by the owner of the skull, each time you're allowed out" framework.
Like old Dracula having to return to his coffin containing earth from his native land before the sun rises.
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Not clear what other protection from the Dawn existed, Ghosts can use their graves, I presume the Castle is a Sanctum (otherwise dawn attacks would make it vulnerable) but may have required activation from its owner, and is huge and immobile. If Bob can create an ectoplasmic body in the castle it has limitations, he can’t move outside of its protection without risking Dawnbreak, so he is still effectively limited to Chicago, he can’t pick his sanctum up and take it with him, which is what he wants.