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The Dresden Files => DF Spoilers => DF Reference Collection => Topic started by: Serack on January 24, 2012, 05:08:01 PM
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So in thinking about topics like Lea, Christos, and Nic, I think I might have put a few things together... The main inspiration for my conclusions is how during the conversation between Nic and Harry before the Rumble at the Shedd (http://www.sheddaquarium.org/), Nic/Andariel seemed genuinely concerned about Harry's account of Hellfire being used at Arctis Tor, and considers such a thing a "contamination" if it's a member of the "Order."
Contamination is the key word here. I am thinking that most of the “Black Council” operatives that Harry has a chance to interact with aren’t actually card carrying “members” but rather are contaminated somehow into doing things along the lines of what they want. Contaminated by what? Some kind of Outsider influence. Vittorio Malvora was flat out possessed by an outsider, but maybe the same is true for pretty much every operative we have come across… Others that are somehow contaminated, and possibly by outsiders (to some degree) would be… Aurora, Lea, Vittorio, and some more that deserve more elaboration…
Thorned Namshiel might have been contaminated, but I’m thinking that Tessa is actually the major vector there, and he was working on her orders.
Lord Raith might be contaminated, since he is so magically slippery, and when he became Neutralized, the “Black Council” had to act to reassert their sway over the White Court, hence the events of White Night. He might actually be a “Card Carrying Member” considering Eb thought something “big” was protecting him.
I think the Red King was “contaminated.” 2 pieces of evidence towards this are that Harry thought he might have been going mad, and his hand reattaching was a “super vampire” move that seemed to closely parallel the “super ghoul” stuff we saw in White Night…
Justin is suspect since he was looking for candidate minions that might have power over Outsiders and he was obviously doing some pretty nasty black magic.
Finally, and this is the big controversial one, Harry might be contaminated to some degree. He is still tainted with the Shadow of HHWB, and something about the reveal in GS makes me suspect that HHWB let Harry win that fight, and that maybe he actually got some kind of influence over Harry out of the encounter.
ETA: Elaine was forced to drink that blood by Justin, and she ran to Aurora for help, so she might be the Vector for her... helps the Elaine=Kumori theories.
ETA2: I ment to mention that Christos may be contaminated, and thus be mucking things up without being a conspirator.
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So, you think the BC is less a single organized body than a collection of isolated cells?
I'd buy it....but there is that bit with Cowl in WN that seems to argue for at least some hierarchy. Hmm. Maybe only within a cell?
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Hmmmm, If there is a conclusion about who is calling the shots, it's the Outsiders themselves... Heck, HHWB was taking a direct part in Blood Rites. Don't forget that meerly percieving some of their members can be insanity inducing... and some insanity has certainly been induced.
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... Elaine... Drank the blood... ran to Aurora... *twitch*
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Instead of a bunch of independent isolated cells of Black Council, it seems like the BC is more like a small group that contracts out its more visible actions. I believe we have actually seen very few BC members who are fully in the know, namely Cowl, Kumori, and maybe Peabody (I can't decide if Mavra is actually BC or not).
Shagnasty was clearly working for someone, but he doesn't need to be a part of the conspiracy. All he would care about was getting to go out and torture somebody.
Same goes for the Erlking if the theory that he was the source of the wolf belts in Fool Moon holds water. Erlking gets to help hunters go after prey; after that, he doesn't really care.
Need a war between the Red Court and White Council? Just whisper into Bianca's ear and mix it with poor and erratic leadership and her very public murder. Bianca didn't really need to be a part of the conspiracy (in fact, few if any of the RC did); she just needed to overlook the longterm consequences of her actions and focus on getting revenge.
Individuals in the White Court covet political power. All the BC needs to do to get them on board is offer up some juicy way to backstab their neighbor. The BC doesn't need to include White Court vampires into all of their secrets.
It seems like overall, the BC is set up like an octopus. It has a central core that sets goals, and many arms that don't really know about each other but will push people around according to what the BC leadership want them to do.
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I'm starting to think that they are all goons at different levels working in an organization run by a god of chaos like oh I don't know Loki? And maybe most of them are not even aware of each other, except for the really higher ups like Nic. Wouldn't that make sence since Odin is a Big player against it? Simply speculating :)
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I see the BC as a group of individuals that have a common goal, and when there is something that need to be done, is given as a task to an individual, instead of the whole group trying to acomplish it. What explains why the resourses of the BC seen so variables..
As for White Night (any reason you keep writing White Knights Serack?) I'm not sure what to think, I can see Cowls move as someone trying to regain control of the WC by putting the Malvora family in power and later replacing Lady Malvora with Vitto.. It makes sense, since the idea I got from my frist reading, that his objective was to bleed the white council by dennying them new recruits in the long term, dosen't fit with the BC actions that seens to be aiming something not so far away. What dosen't make sense, is why try to destroy the whole WC leadership after the plan failed? Did he belive Lara would work aganst him, or just for a chance of killing Harry?
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Bah, I keep saying Knight instead of Night due to crossed circuitry in the brain.
It's been so long since I last tossed around thoughts about this stuff that I forgot about Peabody on the BC list
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I think Peabody was more of a mercenary type, I don't think he knew much of what was going in the BC, he probally was promised in after he finished his high risk mission of infiltraiting and "poisoning" the white council..
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Lara was operating as an ally of the white council and Harry in particular. Certainly from Cowls point of view. Clearly something had to be done and replacing the current leadership was an obvious thing to do.
At the end of the duel the original plan had failed so vitto called for his backup. He probably wanted to do that from the beginning but cowl would prefer a quieter solution if possible.
Once the gouls were called in merely killing the raiths was not an option. Vitto could not hold the white court against the nobles of the other two houses. He had lost the duel. He was dead. The other houses would probably kill him sooner or later. His only option was to kill them all and start again with the lesser white court vampires he could dominate. Cowl went along with it. It would result in a white court totaly in his pocket. A white court controlled by malvora would be less predictable.
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It makes sense, but such a White Court would be weak and not of much use for Cowl. I think after he faield he went for the if I cant have it nobody will..
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So in thinking about topics like Lea, Christos, and Nic, I think I might have put a few things together... The main inspiration for my conclusions is how during the conversation between Nic and Harry before the Rumble at the Shedd (http://www.sheddaquarium.org/), Nic/Andariel seemed genuinely concerned about Harry's account of Hellfire being used at Arctis Tor, and considers such a thing a "contamination" if it's a member of the "Order."
Contamination is the key word here. I am thinking that most of the “Black Council” operatives that Harry has a chance to interact with aren’t actually card carrying “members” but rather are contaminated somehow into doing things along the lines of what they want. Contaminated by what? Some kind of Outsider influence. Vittorio Malvora was flat out possessed by an outsider, but maybe the same is true for pretty much every operative we have come across… Others that are somehow contaminated, and possibly by outsiders (to some degree) would be… Aurora, Lea, Vittorio, and some more that deserve more elaboration…
Thorned Namshiel might have been contaminated, but I’m thinking that Tessa is actually the major vector there, and he was working on her orders.
Since you have been talking so much about the contaminated line, I had to look it up. And then because the Shedd fight scene is so awesome I had to keep reading. That is when I noticed something wierd. After Tessa has captured Harry in the aquarium and is trying to get him to reveal where Ivy is, she says to him: "They say to give a man three chances to say no" (Small Favor Chapter 32). Now it may be just a coincidence but that immediately struck me as awefully similar to Cowl's: "Thrice will I ask and done" (Dead Beat Chapter 8) when he is asking Harry for Das Lied Der Erlking. I don't know if it has been mentioned before but if there is a connection between them, then it would certainly seem to support your theory.
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I think the whole 'asking three times' bit is a tradition/ritual bit in the supernatural world. Doesn't Harry say that if you get a Faerie to say something/promise something three times they're bound by their word (and, of course, pissed with you for forcing them to it)? Three (and seven) are special numbers, at least in the European tradition. (And in my somewhat dumbed-down version of the 1001 Nights, and in my book of fairy tales from the ex-USSR countries) How many children/daughters are in Cinderella's household? How many times does the witch test Hansel's finger to see if he's fat enough? How many dwarves does Snow White encounter? (and so on.)
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There's no place like home...
yah, the 3 times thing is a recuring theme in old world stuffs.
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I think the whole 'asking three times' bit is a tradition/ritual bit in the supernatural world. Doesn't Harry say that if you get a Faerie to say something/promise something three times they're bound by their word (and, of course, pissed with you for forcing them to it)? Three (and seven) are special numbers, at least in the European tradition. (And in my somewhat dumbed-down version of the 1001 Nights, and in my book of fairy tales from the ex-USSR countries) How many children/daughters are in Cinderella's household? How many times does the witch test Hansel's finger to see if he's fat enough? How many dwarves does Snow White encounter? (and so on.)
Prime numbers do seem to have significance such as asking 3 times, 5 pointed star, 7 laws of magic, 13 max number of wizards doing a spell together etc.
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Beetlejuice, Beetlejuice, Beet------, nobody says the B word.
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Instead of a bunch of independent isolated cells of Black Council, it seems like the BC is more like a small group that contracts out its more visible actions. I believe we have actually seen very few BC members who are fully in the know, namely Cowl, Kumori, and maybe Peabody (I can't decide if Mavra is actually BC or not).
It seems like overall, the BC is set up like an octopus. It has a central core that sets goals, and many arms that don't really know about each other but will push people around according to what the BC leadership want them to do.
I agree with you - this is how I see the BC as well. A small group of powerful, dedicated individuals who try to manipulate events from behind the scenes and use catspaws to achieve their objectives. Cowl is a BC member, and Ferrofax is probably another. Kumori seemed like Cowl's assistant/apprentice [and I thought she died in DB?]. I dont think Peabody or Mavra are core BC members - neither of them seem strong enough. My guess - Peabody was being "run" by the other wizard who was with him on the island, and who is probably a senior council member and BC. Mavra is another catspaw who can be used to promote BC objectives.
I dont think any of the RC were BC members, though they were certainly egged on and supported by them. The BC tried to use the Red Court to destroy the WC and kill as many wizards as possible, because WC wizards are one of the groups strong enough to oppose them and their goals.
I think this is what scared Nic so much - to realize at least one Denarian has a very different agenda from the rest of them. Whether that Denarian is a BC member or another catspaw [although a powerful one], Im not sure.
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We have WoJ that Kumori is still alive.
2011 NYC Signing Q&A: (http://www.jimbutcheronline.com/bb/index.php/topic,21772.msg947683.html#msg947683)
Are we going to see more of Kumori? (edited for context)
Yeah, we can’t get rid of her yet.
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I like to imagine that the Black Court has a secret meeting place. On their wall is a Most Wanted poster of Harry wearing a Burger King crown and eating a whopper.
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My guess - Peabody was being "run" by the other wizard who was with him on the island, and who is probably a senior council member and BC. Mavra is another catspaw who can be used to promote BC objectives.
Though we cant be sure if Mavra's a team player or just playing teams against each other yet from the way Kincaid discribes her as world class bad news i'd be hesitant to write her off as a cats paw yet...remember we are getting this from a mercanary who was the right hand of Vlad Drakul for a time who can apparently take on Mab power wise. I figure Kincaid knows what he's talking about.
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I like to imagine that the Black Court has a secret meeting place. On their wall is a Most Wanted poster of Harry wearing a Burger King crown and eating a whopper.
I'd pay good money for jim to write that in ;D
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I like to imagine that the Black Court has a secret meeting place. On their wall is a Most Wanted poster of Harry wearing a Burger King crown and eating a whopper.
The Malks in Hereot talked about how they would gain great favor with the Erlking if they killed Harry. I guess the Erlking could have a wanted poster too. Still, your comment is funny.
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my opinion is that nicodemeus was more upset because he did not get any say about the existence of that organization, i mean he is a predator and if you remember how thomas justified fighting for th "right" side in "backup" the you shall realize that nicodemeus considered the black council as a potential threat by its very existence; so the burning of arctis tor was something that nicodemeus did not know about and as the premier individual when it comes to bringing about the apocalypse he certainly did not want to share the spotlight with anyone,especially not people so secretive as to elude him,ad so powerful as to storm the HQ of one the major superpowers in the supernatural community
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Id bet money that Maggie Lefay was was either a member or an original founder. For ideological reasons.
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Id bet money that Maggie Lefay was was either a member or an original founder. For ideological reasons.
What makes you think that?
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Well, the BC clearly intends to upend the status quo. Maggie LeFay was an idealist unhappy with the status quo. Those two facts certainly don't prove a relationship, but given Maggie LeFay's popularity and notable skills in the wizarding world, the other major backers of the BC probably would have considered her a useful recruit/dupe.
In addition, Maggie LeFay is known to have had a change of heart at some point that considerably rearranged her motivations. After that change of heart, she planned to have a child with Outsider-bane properties. Considering the BC's known links to Outsiders, a connection starts sounding pretty plausible to me.
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I think harry was being manipulated as a weapon for BC and still is hes fought them but a lot of his actions have made all the other super powers in the world weaker causing war and caos making it easer for the BC to gain power and control.
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I can see Harry's mom as an early plotter into the BC. A BC that might have been more altruistic in the beginning and was quickly corrupted by more sinister members. That could suggest that a controlled use of outsiders was a possible plan of action.
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and what was the scheme she wanted her fathers help in with white king and ariana both vampire courts and she wanted the blackstaffs help it couldnt be good
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I can see Harry's mom as an early plotter into the BC. A BC that might have been more altruistic in the beginning and was quickly corrupted by more sinister members. That could suggest that a controlled use of outsiders was a possible plan of action.
I also believe she was a part of the blackcouncil/The circle briefly. I assume it was as a new recruit through Lord Raith (I take his magical protection as outsider power at work and him as a top tier minion, possible member) as she was his consort and she then learned of some sinister goal and wanted out and was killed for it.
I don't buy that she while under influence of Lord Raith managed to spy or divine something of him. BC is practically impenetrable and he is a White Court vampire which prides itself upon deception and stealth for even more secrecy.
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I can see Harry's mom as an early plotter into the BC. A BC that might have been more altruistic in the beginning and was quickly corrupted by more sinister members. That could suggest that a controlled use of outsiders was a possible plan of action.
Perhaps the BC started out more altruistic or not. I think they recruit useful idiots and idealists besides the evil black hat types. Kumori seemed the misguided idealist who is being a useful idiot. Maggie may have been recruited and by the time she figured out how bad they were it was too late and she was being hunted by everyone.
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Meh. And here I came into the thread thinking you would mention the odd implications of Grevane and Corpstaker in DB....
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Meh. And here I came into the thread thinking you would mention the odd implications of Grevane and Corpstaker in DB....
What odd implications are you talking about? That the Darkhallow ritual was supposed to be a team effort? Something else?
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Though we cant be sure if Mavra's a team player or just playing teams against each other yet from the way Kincaid discribes her as world class bad news i'd be hesitant to write her off as a cats paw yet...remember we are getting this from a mercanary who was the right hand of Vlad Drakul for a time who can apparently take on Mab power wise. I figure Kincaid knows what he's talking about.
That's true - but taken in context he might have just been trying to impress on Dresden how dangerous she could be so he wouldnt underestimate her.
Black Court vampires are supposed to be highly skilled in black magic - that makes them all very dangerous - not just Mavra. And only the strongest/most dangerous ones survived the purges. The only other BC vamp I remember was in the short story where Thomas got attacked in the shopping mall. That was a very young vamp and she nearly kicked Harry's butt, so I think all BC vamps are very strong and highly dangerous. I dont know if Mavra is any stronger than any other BCV.
So she certainly could be real BC - but I tend to think not. She doesnt seem to have quite the same level of power or knowledge of someone like Cowl or Ferrofax [who I think are BC definitely. Plus in DB she was working against the interests of Cowl, which works if you think she's an agent who can be used by BC to stir up trouble, without her being aware of all of their plans/plots.
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That was a very young vamp and she nearly kicked Harry's butt, so I think all BC vamps are very strong and highly dangerous. I dont know if Mavra is any stronger than any other BCV.
To be fair, she caught him without his duster, staff or blasting rod and Thomas without a weapon.
And vamps seem to get stronger the older they get, Mavra's probably pretty damn powerful, didn't she only consider a knight of the cross (Michael in GP) an "interesting challenge"?
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To be fair, she caught him without his duster, staff or blasting rod and Thomas without a weapon.
True.
And vamps seem to get stronger the older they get, Mavra's probably pretty damn powerful, didn't she only consider a knight of the cross (Michael in GP) an "interesting challenge"?
But how much of that was bravado? i dont remember her being unaffected by the light of the sword.
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I may be Micheal biased, but I think he could have torn her in two back when he was a Fist of God. He has none of his reasons for holding against Denearians... she's a dead body fueled by dark power, kill IT. (She also has a novels worth of weakness's he can take advantage of.)
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To be fair, she caught him without his duster, staff or blasting rod and Thomas without a weapon.
And vamps seem to get stronger the older they get, Mavra's probably pretty damn powerful, didn't she only consider a knight of the cross (Michael in GP) an "interesting challenge"?
I think Michael in his prime as a KotC could defeat Mavra. Michael chopped up Sirothrax the Dragon. That got Ferrovax's attention and respect, Ferrovax he could wipe the floor with Mavra without breaking a sweat. The swords seem to power you up and negate the enemies advantages and put you on equal footing.
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The sword would be very effective against Mavra because it is also a holy symbol. But only when used in the right circumstances.
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That's true - but taken in context he might have just been trying to impress on Dresden how dangerous she could be so he wouldnt underestimate her.
I dont know if Mavra is any stronger than any other BCV.
So she certainly could be real BC - but I tend to think not. She doesnt seem to have quite the same level of power or knowledge of someone like Cowl or Ferrofax [who I think are BC definitely. Plus in DB she was working against the interests of Cowl, which works if you think she's an agent who can be used by BC to stir up trouble, without her being aware of all of their plans/plots.
Would not that first part mean that she should indeed not be underestimated :-\
No sadly Jim hasnt given us anyone else in the court to compare her to
Mavra's been pretty quite about her power level. Remember how in BR Eb thought she just had a little skill with dark magic? she trained a small timer like Bianca to face off a wizard like Harry with some scary spells which probably refect on some of the stuff she knows but hasnt been seen doing.
Also Ferro is in the same league as Mab (maybe even a little stronger) so unless Cowl or Mavra pull of a power ritual theres no comparing either of them to someone like Ferro. Based on the power thats been demonstrated by the two, we cant really make a judgment one whos stronger at the moment.
Im not exactly sure what you mean in the last part, if Cowls BC and Mavra were an agent to stir up trouble then why does it make sense that the BC would send her to mess up his trip to Godhood? :-\
Wouldnt that mean that A) Mavra is a Backstabbing BC member B) someone one the outside who trying to screw stop them, or C) shes a BC member taking orders from the higher ups which even Cowl doesnt know of hence Cowl too is a Pawn who does not know anything or D) Cowl is not actually BC and Mavra was sent to stop them in their interests?
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Would not that first part mean that she should indeed not be underestimated :-\
What I meant was it was more like he's saying - Be very careful - dont get careless or drop your guard kind of thing. At least that was the way I took it.
No sadly Jim hasnt given us anyone else in the court to compare her to
Im hoping we might see some more in Book 15.
Mavra's been pretty quite about her power level. Remember how in BR Eb thought she just had a little skill with dark magic? she trained a small timer like Bianca to face off a wizard like Harry with some scary spells which probably refect on some of the stuff she knows but hasnt been seen doing.
Also Ferro is in the same league as Mab (maybe even a little stronger) so unless Cowl or Mavra pull of a power ritual theres no comparing either of them to someone like Ferro. Based on the power thats been demonstrated by the two, we cant really make a judgment one whos stronger at the moment.
See, my impression based on what we've seen so far is Cowl is stronger than Mavra. His powers seem far vaster - he put up a much bigger fight the times we've seen him than Mavra did in the homeless shelter. Yes, she got away, but my impression of Cowl is he wouldnt have run that quickly. For instance, in WN, instead of retreating when Dresden was getting the upper hand, he called in the ghouls. But this is just my impression.
Im not exactly sure what you mean in the last part, if Cowls BC and Mavra were an agent to stir up trouble then why does it make sense that the BC would send her to mess up his trip to Godhood? :-\
Sorry I didnt explain that well - let me try again. I agree with the op who said they see the actual BC members as a small tight-knit group who tend to use agents to accomplish their aims. These agents probably know only what they need to and not the Big Picture - and may be total dupes [I have the feeling the Red King was egged on to prepare for war against the wizards but never really told the truth about the BC or their ultimate aims.].
The way I see Mavra [based on what Ive read so far] she is more another pawn/dupe/catspaw they can use as needed. I think they tell her as much or as little as they need to in order to get her to act the way they want her to act. IOW she is being manipulated by them. But that doesnt mean she is ALWAYS working for them, or has any idea of the big picture. She's not in their confidence to any great extent. And when they dont have a "job" for her, she's on her own.
I think in DB she was on her own and wanted the book for herself. My point was if she was BC herself, she would have realized Cowl was getting the book for them and wouldnt have risked involving Dresden.
But like I said - Im not entirely sure about Mavra. The only 2 I think are BC for sure are Cowl and Ferrofax.
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What I meant was it was more like he's saying - Be very careful - dont get careless or drop your guard kind of thing. At least that was the way I took it.
Im hoping we might see some more in Book 15.
See, my impression based on what we've seen so far is Cowl is stronger than Mavra. His powers seem far vaster - he put up a much bigger fight the times we've seen him than Mavra did in the homeless shelter. Yes, she got away, but my impression of Cowl is he wouldnt have run that quickly. For instance, in WN, instead of retreating when Dresden was getting the upper hand, he called in the ghouls. But this is just my impression.
Sorry I didnt explain that well - let me explain try again. I agree with the op who said they see the actual BC members as a small tight-knit group who tend to use agents to accomplish their aims. These agents probably know only what they need to and not the Big Picture - and may be total dupes [I have the feeling the Red King was egged on to prepare for war against the wizards but never really told the truth about the BC or their ultimate aims.].
The way I see Mavra [based on what Ive read so far] she is more another pawn/dupe/catspaw they can use as needed. I think they tell her as much or as little as they need to in order to get her to act the way they want her to act. IOW she is being manipulated by them. But that doesnt mean she is ALWAYS working for them, or has any idea of the big picture. She's not in their confidence to any great extent. And when they dont have a "job" for her, she's on her own.
I think in DB she was on her own and wanted the book for herself. My point was if she was BC herself, she would have realized Cowl was getting the book for them and wouldnt have risked involving Dresden.
But like I said - Im not entirely sure about Mavra. The only 2 I think are BC for sure are Cowl and Ferrofax.
ahh
For me it seems more likely given Mavras reputation that kincaid warning harry that Mavra was bad news was more then just a be careful time. i take this from account that kincaid himself reports to be afraid of Mavra and, that she was consisdered "very dangerous" by the white council before she was known the be wizard level and that she got away of killing a friend of ebs in the venatori these are all people and organizations who make killing monsters there bussiness and unlike Cowl whos human i get the impression that Blampires are still getting special attention as part of an ongoing genocide against their kind. Point being she must be doing something right to have earned her rep.
for Cowl, he has gotten more screen time to demonstrate his power which can definatly create an impression but unless its stated that he can do thing that mavra cant its not really proof of superior raw power or technique. keep in mind Mavras retreat was in daylight under magical lockdown as harry acknowledged in BR if Mavra herslf cought them at night she'd take them apart. Also if Mavra had just set that up so she could get Blackmail there would not have been any point in staying around. By contrast Cowl hadnt gotten what he wanted in all those times harry confronts him and hes in the way. Just saying, one thing alot of the powerful and smart seem to have incommon is that they generally dont seek a fight unless theres a reason.
While your theory on Mavras standing in the BC is as possible as any untill we get more clues I think Mavra would have had to know who was trying to get the book and wanted all of the necromancers laid low.
Just out of curiousity what makes you suspect Ferrorvax?
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Im hoping we might see some more in Book 15.
Isn't that the next Denarian book?
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Just out of curiousity what makes you suspect Ferrorvax?
It's just a feeling I have about him. Basically because he was at that party - which seemed to be some kind of watershed moment in BC planning [I dont think we know everything that happened in that party yet]. Also because he's a major power - certainly someone powerful enough to be considered BC material. And because he's extremely antagonistic to humans. Considers them something like vermin. Keeping him from assuming his rightful place in the universe. Whatever the ultimate goal of the BC [I think it's destroying the Gates and bringing the Outsiders back], it's not going to be beneficial for mankind.
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Isn't that the next Denarian book?
If you go by the theory that Denariians show up/play a role in every fifth book (DM was book 5, SmF was book 10), then yes.
However, if you're going by the numbers, it's the next vampire-centric book, too: GP was book 3, BR was book 6, WN was book 9, Changes was book 12, so it follows that Book 15 is as likely to be vampire centric as Denariian-centric. Or both at once. Which is a rather unpleasant thought for Harry et al.
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Regarding Ferrovax, we also don't know what was in the coffer he got as a gift at Bianca's party. Whatever it was should be significant, but we haven't heard anything about it since then. Every other gift at the party was a big deal, even if we don't know all the details concerning exactly how the athame screwed over Winter.
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It's just a feeling I have about him. Basically because he was at that party - which seemed to be some kind of watershed moment in BC planning [I dont think we know everything that happened in that party yet]. Also because he's a major power - certainly someone powerful enough to be considered BC material. And because he's extremely antagonistic to humans. Considers them something like vermin. Keeping him from assuming his rightful place in the universe. Whatever the ultimate goal of the BC [I think it's destroying the Gates and bringing the Outsiders back], it's not going to be beneficial for mankind.
We got a Woj hes a force of nature and somewere that the dragons dont like the way humans took over things or (something like that) so the big questions would be how powerful the black council really are and if someone like ferro would be interested or consider such an alliance beneath him or if he has a mind to take is place back.
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It's just a feeling I have about him. Basically because he was at that party - which seemed to be some kind of watershed moment in BC planning [I dont think we know everything that happened in that party yet]. Also because he's a major power - certainly someone powerful enough to be considered BC material. And because he's extremely antagonistic to humans. Considers them something like vermin. Keeping him from assuming his rightful place in the universe. Whatever the ultimate goal of the BC [I think it's destroying the Gates and bringing the Outsiders back], it's not going to be beneficial for mankind.
I thought of that party as the first "open" move of the black council to spread chaos/gain allies. It clearly impacted Lea. Considering that the gifts were coming from the Black Council, I would assume that the recipients were not Black Council members. But of course, this causes some confusion in my thought process about the Black Council. Here are some of my thoughts:
Assumption 1: The meeting/organization that Margaret wanted to start was the big bomb drop by Jim, and was the start of the Black Council. Thus the start of the black council must have included Maggie, Lord Raith, and Arriana; and least originally started for "good" purposes.
Assumption 2: Margaret left the black council and birthed Harry as a child of the stars for the purpose of opposing them
Assumption 3: Cowl is Black Council.
Assumption 4: Justin was either Black Council, or a servant/pawn of the Black Council. My guess is that he was an original member (since he was a peer of Maggie and if she helped start it he would be an obvious person for her to bring in) but may have been sidelined as the powerlevel of the members grew.
Assumption 5: The council now, but maybe not originally, uses and may be corrupted/led by outsiders. A guess is that it may have been the use of outsiders that drove Maggie out of the group.
Assumption 6: The council was giving significant support to the red court (not just as pawns). They did some serious outsider summoning and service with the Red Court and almost succeeded in defeating the white council 2-3 times. Any of those could have succeeded, so I don't consider them patsies.
Problems/Questions
A. If Maggie new all about the black council and wanted them stopped, why didn't she share their plans with people that she could trust? Dad seems like a likely candidate. We know the gem Harry recently acquired carries her knowledge of the ways, I wonder if she may have put some other knowledge in it as well, and he just has to ask the right questions...
B. If Maggie was a founding member and was recruiting, wouldn't Lea be a useful member? We know she and Maggie were tight. If she wasn't a member, wouldn't Maggie have warned her (to help in the protection of her son) enough that Lea would have been smart enough to avoid the situation at Beanca's party (knowing the powers they deal with and that they are up to no good?) I'd kind of been thinking that Lea may be a member, but also made a deal to protect Harry, and thus this puts Lea in a very interesting situation. After all, it may be that a member of the Cabal might be in the best position to protect Harry from the Cabal. Or, because Maggie put her in the know, and she was protecting Harry, she was a being they needed to corrupt/destroy and thus that is why they gave her the poisonous gift.
C. If Lord Wraith was a founding member, wouldn't Lara now know their secrets? She's a lot smarter than Harry in terms of finding every drop of information and every secret that help her hold power. I don't think there is any way after she had the mind lock on her dad that she wouldn't milk every secret out of him. And after what happened in the deeps, she has to know that the black council is after her, so if she knows, she should have shared information about them with Harry by now. So she hasn't signed on with them (or the Malvora plot would never have happened) but she doesn't seem to be working against them- indicating that she doesn't know, which indicates her dad didn't, but that makes no sense.
D. Arianna's involvement vs. the Red King. In changes the king said about her, "Determined to cling to the past, rather than exploring new opportunities..." That does not sound like the desciption of a black council member to me, that sounds more like a black council member (or want-to-be) talking. It makes me doubt who it was the black council was manipulating - arianna or the king?
E. The stories, especially the short stories, have a secondary theme of the older gods/forgotten powers wanting to get back into the limelight. I think that is starting to happen with the move of the Fomor. I think it is possible that that is partly the changing of the order that the black council may have been originally part of accomplishing. Sort of like a Society of Creative Anacronisms taking magical crack. Maggie may have thought that with more of the older powers up and running and dealing with mortals that they would have helped break the stranglehold of the white council and help with encouraging reforms. After all, a lot of the older powers aren't necessarily useful, and they may have believed they could use them. It was only after they took that logic one step too far and started tapping outsiders that Maggie decided to get out. After all, helping to restore the greek pantheon isn't against the laws of magic (And thus isn't mind-twisting), but dealing with outsiders is.
F. Since the black council probably included powerful white court and red court members, it obviously wasn't opposed to vampires and could have included the black court (ie Mavra), but of course, considering that the White Court was behind the fall of the black court, it is unlikely that they would be open to including it in their plans to grab power. Makes an interesting conundrum. It is possible that the black court was specifically excluded, and thus might make the perfect enemy-that-is-an-ally. And since they hate and are watching the white court, they could be clued into much of what they are doing already. I have no idea what the party indicates about this: since Mavra was receiving gifts it seems to indicate she wasn't black council; but her teaching Bianca seems to indicate she was. My really long-shot idea was that Mavra was working to oppose the Black Council by encouraging Bianca to go after Harry (and start the war with the wizards before the Black Council was ready) and the Black Council was trying to bribe her into allying with, rather than opposing the Black Council - either that or it entirely misread her intentions. I think Mavra is very very subtle, and might be a lot more powerful than we know. Her defeats were strategic and allowed. If anything, they have lulled Harry into thinking she is a lot less of a threat than she is, and she is happy that way.
G. Outsiders are corrupting the balck council. The whole big shabang will eventually be about Outsiders, but it will take awhile further to get there.
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I thought of that party as the first "open" move of the black council to spread chaos/gain allies. It clearly impacted Lea. Considering that the gifts were coming from the Black Council, I would assume that the recipients were not Black Council members. But of course, this causes some confusion in my thought process about the Black Council. Here are some of my thoughts:
Assumption 1: The meeting/organization that Margaret wanted to start was the big bomb drop by Jim, and was the start of the Black Council. Thus the start of the black council must have included Maggie, Lord Raith, and Arriana; and least originally started for "good" purposes.
Assumption 2: Margaret left the black council and birthed Harry as a child of the stars for the purpose of opposing them
Assumption 3: Cowl is Black Council.
Assumption 4: Justin was either Black Council, or a servant/pawn of the Black Council. My guess is that he was an original member (since he was a peer of Maggie and if she helped start it he would be an obvious person for her to bring in) but may have been sidelined as the powerlevel of the members grew.
Assumption 5: The council now, but maybe not originally, uses and may be corrupted/led by outsiders. A guess is that it may have been the use of outsiders that drove Maggie out of the group.
Assumption 6: The council was giving significant support to the red court (not just as pawns). They did some serious outsider summoning and service with the Red Court and almost succeeded in defeating the white council 2-3 times. Any of those could have succeeded, so I don't consider them patsies.
Problems/Questions
A. If Maggie new all about the black council and wanted them stopped, why didn't she share their plans with people that she could trust? Dad seems like a likely candidate. We know the gem Harry recently acquired carries her knowledge of the ways, I wonder if she may have put some other knowledge in it as well, and he just has to ask the right questions...
B. If Maggie was a founding member and was recruiting, wouldn't Lea be a useful member? We know she and Maggie were tight. If she wasn't a member, wouldn't Maggie have warned her (to help in the protection of her son) enough that Lea would have been smart enough to avoid the situation at Beanca's party (knowing the powers they deal with and that they are up to no good?) I'd kind of been thinking that Lea may be a member, but also made a deal to protect Harry, and thus this puts Lea in a very interesting situation. After all, it may be that a member of the Cabal might be in the best position to protect Harry from the Cabal. Or, because Maggie put her in the know, and she was protecting Harry, she was a being they needed to corrupt/destroy and thus that is why they gave her the poisonous gift.
C. If Lord Wraith was a founding member, wouldn't Lara now know their secrets? She's a lot smarter than Harry in terms of finding every drop of information and every secret that help her hold power. I don't think there is any way after she had the mind lock on her dad that she wouldn't milk every secret out of him. And after what happened in the deeps, she has to know that the black council is after her, so if she knows, she should have shared information about them with Harry by now. So she hasn't signed on with them (or the Malvora plot would never have happened) but she doesn't seem to be working against them- indicating that she doesn't know, which indicates her dad didn't, but that makes no sense.
D. Arianna's involvement vs. the Red King. In changes the king said about her, "Determined to cling to the past, rather than exploring new opportunities..." That does not sound like the desciption of a black council member to me, that sounds more like a black council member (or want-to-be) talking. It makes me doubt who it was the black council was manipulating - arianna or the king?
E. The stories, especially the short stories, have a secondary theme of the older gods/forgotten powers wanting to get back into the limelight. I think that is starting to happen with the move of the Fomor. I think it is possible that that is partly the changing of the order that the black council may have been originally part of accomplishing. Sort of like a Society of Creative Anacronisms taking magical crack. Maggie may have thought that with more of the older powers up and running and dealing with mortals that they would have helped break the stranglehold of the white council and help with encouraging reforms. After all, a lot of the older powers aren't necessarily useful, and they may have believed they could use them. It was only after they took that logic one step too far and started tapping outsiders that Maggie decided to get out. After all, helping to restore the greek pantheon isn't against the laws of magic (And thus isn't mind-twisting), but dealing with outsiders is.
F. Since the black council probably included powerful white court and red court members, it obviously wasn't opposed to vampires and could have included the black court (ie Mavra), but of course, considering that the White Court was behind the fall of the black court, it is unlikely that they would be open to including it in their plans to grab power. Makes an interesting conundrum. It is possible that the black court was specifically excluded, and thus might make the perfect enemy-that-is-an-ally. And since they hate and are watching the white court, they could be clued into much of what they are doing already. I have no idea what the party indicates about this: since Mavra was receiving gifts it seems to indicate she wasn't black council; but her teaching Bianca seems to indicate she was. My really long-shot idea was that Mavra was working to oppose the Black Council by encouraging Bianca to go after Harry (and start the war with the wizards before the Black Council was ready) and the Black Council was trying to bribe her into allying with, rather than opposing the Black Council - either that or it entirely misread her intentions. I think Mavra is very very subtle, and might be a lot more powerful than we know. Her defeats were strategic and allowed. If anything, they have lulled Harry into thinking she is a lot less of a threat than she is, and she is happy that way.
G. Outsiders are corrupting the balck council. The whole big shabang will eventually be about Outsiders, but it will take awhile further to get there.
I don't think the Black Council with Ariana or Lord Raith were ever good. Perhaps they were deceiving Maggie and others. I have no idea when the BC was founded but I think Maggie was invited in. I think Ferrovax got a very powerful cursed gift. Lea got the cursed Athame of Morgan LeFay. Ferrovax may want some vengeance on those who did that. Remember Lea talking about her being grateful to Harry for taking out Bianca, Ariana and the whole RC. Ferrovax may be in a similar grateful mood towards Harry if his gift was cursed. As to Lara knowing what Papa Raith knows about the Black Council perhaps she does or doesn't. It depends on how much was left in Papa Raith's head after Lara did the mind whammy on him. The BC did seem to want to take Lara out several times with the Uberghouls and with Madeline etc. I think she is against the BC and is letting Harry to oppose them for her and her giving Harry low key support.
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I don't think the Black Council with Ariana or Lord Raith were ever good. Perhaps they were deceiving Maggie and others. I have no idea when the BC was founded but I think Maggie was invited in. I think Ferrovax got a very powerful cursed gift. Lea got the cursed Athame of Morgan LeFay. Ferrovax may want some vengeance on those who did that. Remember Lea talking about her being grateful to Harry for taking out Bianca, Ariana and the whole RC. Ferrovax may be in a similar grateful mood towards Harry if his gift was cursed. As to Lara knowing what Papa Raith knows about the Black Council perhaps she does or doesn't. It depends on how much was left in Papa Raith's head after Lara did the mind whammy on him. The BC did seem to want to take Lara out several times with the Uberghouls and with Madeline etc. I think she is against the BC and is letting Harry to oppose them for her and her giving Harry low key support.
Yes, I think it is clear that the monsters in the group aren't actually working for the public weal. I assume they have sold the wizards involved that they were in for the same reason the white court is part of the ventori - to help get rid of competition for their prey, or to make the prey more numerous so they can support more predators. Something self serving that almost sounds "good." Though of course they could be entirely lying. But it is clear that Cowl does not consider himself evil, and is very clear his apprentice doesn't. Obviously very few consider themselves to be evil, but whatever their stated goal is, is what I was refering to as "good." No matter how good the goal, obviously they now feel free to use any means necessary to reach it - which is pretty much textbook evil.
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Going back to Ferrofax at the party - yes, it's true he received a gift but Im not sure that means anything. Every invited [non-RC] guest received a gift - that was part of the etiquette - I dont think the fact that he was a guest and received a gift means he couldnt also be BC.
The BC used this set-up [of gift-giving] to their advantage to give Lea the "poisoned" knife . But so far we dont have any evidence that any of the other gifts were tainted. And every guest there got one - including Mavra, Harry and Thomas. We havent seen any evidence yet that Thomas was affected, and the headstone was just a headstone.
So I would say, they used the opportunity to specifically target Lea, not necessarily everyone else.
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What did Mavra get again?
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Going back to Ferrofax at the party - yes, it's true he received a gift but Im not sure that means anything. Every invited [non-RC] guest received a gift - that was part of the etiquette - I dont think the fact that he was a guest and received a gift means he couldnt also be BC.
The BC used this set-up [of gift-giving] to their advantage to give Lea the "poisoned" knife . But so far we dont have any evidence that any of the other gifts were tainted. And every guest there got one - including Mavra, Harry and Thomas. We havent seen any evidence yet that Thomas was affected, and the headstone was just a headstone.
So I would say, they used the opportunity to specifically target Lea, not necessarily everyone else.
Thomas got a one way vacation. I don' see how airline ticket and hotel reservations are tainted. I think they wanted Justine (for Bianca) and him gone or dead, the message is go away, don't come back and we want your tasty girlfriend. I have no idea what Mavra got. You don't give away major gifts away without them meaning something. Harry got a tombstone and cemetary plot because they were letting him know he will die shortly. Mr Ferro got a major gift and even he was impressed. It means something like he won't intervene against the RC or Black Council or something like that or he owes them a favor.
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Mavra was given Amoracchius and an innocent victim, so she could unmake it right there at the party. It was obviously something of a setup, considering that Bianca had just been given the sword by Lea, in exchange for the athame.
I've mentioned it at least once before, but I quite liked the attention to detail in the balance of exchanging Amoracchius for the athame. Amoracchius/Excalibur was once the personal weapon of King Arthur. The athame was once the personal weapon of Morgan LeFay, who was Arthur's half-sister.
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Thomas got a one way vacation. I don' see how airline ticket and hotel reservations are tainted. I think they wanted Justine (for Bianca) and him gone or dead, the message is go away, don't come back and we want your tasty girlfriend. I have no idea what Mavra got. You don't give away major gifts away without them meaning something. Harry got a tombstone and cemetary plot because they were letting him know he will die shortly. Mr Ferro got a major gift and even he was impressed. It means something like he won't intervene against the RC or Black Council or something like that or he owes them a favor.
With the exception of Mr. Ferro, every gift was meant to create a disturbance or doubt within the receiver. Lea got hit hard; because she is big power. Harry has looked at his tombstone and questioned his actions. Thomas and the ticket was the easy way out that he tried to take too late.
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With the exception of Mr. Ferro, every gift was meant to create a disturbance or doubt within the receiver.
If whatever bit of bright-and-shiny Ferro received was another "treacherous gift" we won't see the effects until the last few books of the series.
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If whatever bit of bright-and-shiny Ferro received was another "treacherous gift" we won't see the effects until the last few books of the series.
I think it probably was a treacherous gift, though it may have been a relatively simple gambit. One common aspect of dragons is a tendency to hoard treasure. The contents of the coffer might have been something shiny that would occupy Ferrovax's attention while the Black Council made moves in an area that he'd normally be watching or guarding. Less of a bribe and more of a "Look! A distraction!" Ferrovax was once set as some sort of cosmic guardian; might he have been tasked with minding the Outer Gates?
Alternatively, it could have been a bribe, or a gift with some type of corrupting influence, or any number of things. From Ferrovax's reaction (from what I remember, he was at least mildly impressed by the quality of the gift), the thing itself was either impressive in its value or its appropriateness to the situation (or both).
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I think it probably was a treacherous gift, though it may have been a relatively simple gambit. One common aspect of dragons is a tendency to hoard treasure. The contents of the coffer might have been something shiny that would occupy Ferrovax's attention while the Black Council made moves in an area that he'd normally be watching or guarding. Less of a bribe and more of a "Look! A distraction!" Ferrovax was once set as some sort of cosmic guardian; might he have been tasked with minding the Outer Gates?
Alternatively, it could have been a bribe, or a gift with some type of corrupting influence, or any number of things. From Ferrovax's reaction (from what I remember, he was at least mildly impressed by the quality of the gift), the thing itself was either impressive in its value or its appropriateness to the situation (or both).
I think it was a bribe and an appropriate gift.
A treacherous gift could give interesting results though. I still do not know what the treacherous gift to Lea did achieve for the Black Council but it turned Mab into an enemy eager to use Harry against them.
If they made Ferrofax into an enemy......
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I think it was a bribe and an appropriate gift.
A treacherous gift could give interesting results though. I still do not know what the treacherous gift to Lea did achieve for the Black Council but it turned Mab into an enemy eager to use Harry against them.
If they made Ferrofax into an enemy......
My guess is the gift to Ferrovax was either a bribe to have him leave the Black Council alone or a cursed gift that will screw him over and he might team up with Harry vs the Black Council in the last books.